I was so against all the electronics on bikes and here I am now on a Pan Am enjoying the heck out of them :) I do agree though, there needs to be a balance between features and value. I'm guessing the real reason why no one is building a unicorn is because it will cannibalize their own sales. Many of us are looking for that one bike, but the real solution is to have several bikes. Of course affordability and space are a huge issue, especially now.
I think the cost (people just have less money to spend) is what will push manufacturers to simplify. I love my Pan Am, but there's an opening for a lighter ADV with minimal electronics like ABS, traction control, cruise control, with middling Hp/Tq. Yeah, it'll cannibalize some of the larger bike sales that manufacturer makes, but it'll likely eviscerate the sales of every other manufacturer they compete against at the same time. 12 axis IMUs, radar assisted cruise control, blindspot monitoring, etc are just add ons to jack up the cost. Like you said, affordability and space are huge issues. It'll force their hands, whichever one does it 1st will win big. Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
That is the reason for no cruise control on the Transalp... if they do, why buy the Africa Twin? Companies consider their whole lineup, not just trying to make 1 great bike.
@@joeln6861 It used to be that way with cars too, but now even the lowliest econobox comes with cruise control. Manufacturers are facing a rough go and any advantage could save a sales year. There will always be the guy who wants the "biggest, bestest, most advanced" thingamajig. With the economy tightening and sales being harder to come by. Those sales are going fall no matter what and they'll lose out because big ADVs will sit on showroom floors only to be discounted in the end. It's happening at this very moment with 2023 and 2024 models. Some are being sold for the same price as middleweights. The main way to get an edge now is to add a feature like cruise control. In the middleweight category, someone will do it besides Aprilia on their 660 Tuareg, and it'll massively eat into sales of all the other makers. They may not like it, but they will accept it. Thank you for watching , stay safe out there!
The V85TTs are a consideration for a new bike. They have them on discount at the "local" dealership right now. Local as in over 100 miles away, I'd have to be very positive about a purchase. I still have another 4.5 years on my Pan Am's warranty so tt could be awhile until I buy a new bike unless someone comes out with something compelling. Stay safe out there my fellow Italian bike enthusiast, and thank you for watching!
I'm impressed anyone is still looking at ADV, after 10 years I'm more than ready to go back to sports touring. What I've discovered is that I'm not Ewan McGregor and I have zero chance of travelling the road of bones.
I think a lot of people see ADVs for possibilities, not what they'll actually do with them. Close to or the same comfort level as an ST/Touring with similar Hp/Tq, luggage capabilities, and general amenities/gizmos. I'd likely still be on a bagger like my Road King if I hadn't test ridden an ADV. I also looked at STs; the Ninja 1000SE and Tracer 9 specifically, but my steep hilled gravel road made me reconsider. Then, like I said, a ride on an ADV changed my mind. Now, will most people ever see as much gravel as my Pan Am sees? Not likely, but the possibility they could do gravel or dirt is the draw. SUVs and big pickup trucks have become popular for the same reason. "I'll never haul a load in the bed or need to have the 4WD engaged, but hey, why shouldn't I have the option?" Stay safe out there, get that ST (it's a great option most folks won't even consider) and thank you for watching!
I like that you mention the air filter and valve adjustment intervals. That’s something I always look at on a prospective new bike and it’s (the air filter) that kept the Pan-Am off my list. The only thing I’d add to your list is tubeless wheels. I’m not gonna pull a wheel off a bike on the side of the road to repair a flat. If I can’t fix it with a plug then I’ll fix it with a cell phone and a credit card.
I forgot about tubeless rims, thanks for reminding me! Manufacturers, add it to the list! Tubeless rims are a big deal. I actually had to plug a tire less than 1K miles after I bought my Pan Am. It was so much easier than the swapping the inner tube on my old Sportster. Yeah, the air filter was a hard sell for me, but no valve clearance checks/adjustments had me look past it. Valve clearance checks/adjustments are worse all the way around on every bike I've had which required them. The only bikes I'd buy now that require them are the Moto Guzzis and BMW GS, the valves are easy to get to without tearing half the bike apart. Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
I can live without most of the gadgets that come on most modern motorcycles. That being said the adaptive ride height and hill hold are two I would keep on any tall and heavy bike. I really appreciate both on the PA Special. For simplicity I ride my KLR 650 and my barebones 07 Sportster 1200. Love them both.
I think a lot of the height issue could be solved with better seats and height adjustable suspension. My custom modes are both set with the ARH turned off, but my custom off-road mode has it on. It wouldn't make a difference to most people if the bike stayed at the lowered height (there's still 7 to 8 inches of ride height even when it's activated), so the fact that there isn't an option for that doesn't make sense. There are also ride height lowering kits for that Pan Am (remember, they sold some original PAs as non S models without the electronic suspension/ARH). I was actually looking at Kawi KLR650s the other day, 2023/2024 models are running in the $4500-$5K range, very interesting. Plus, they're cockroach bikes, simple, hearty, and tons of parts availability. A fine 2nd bike, and of course Sportsters are too, I miss both of my XLs. Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
Agree with most everything you brought up. I don't mind doing a valve check for the right bike, but I think you got a point that auto-valves should be achievable for all manufacturers.
If it's easily accessible like on BMW Boxers & Guzzis it becomes less of an issue. Having to tear down your bike for hours just to check and possibly add shims is too much though. Doing the spark plugs involved a lot of parts removal on the Pan Am I didn't expect (2 plugs per cylinder, 1 in the top of the front head was buried and hard to manage with the frame being a hinderance) , but with longer lasting platinum plugs it'd only be every 20K miles or so. It's not too awful but it could've been easier. Dual plugs right next to each other on the side of the heads would've worked fine, there's 1 plug there already. I'd have had to go even deeper into the bike if I had to do valve clearance checks. Likely another hour of labor or more and getting feeler gauges in there would almost require a magic trick. If I actually had to take anything apart and add shims, it'd be kind of rough due to a lack of room to operate around the head of the front cylinder. Manufacturers could do it. After all, "tractor manufacturer", "yesterdays tech at tomorrows prices" H-D figured it out. At this point, manufacturers really have no excuses. Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
I really want KTM to succeed, if they could get it together they'd be the manufacturer to beat. The 2025 390 ADV R (besides the less than 12K mile valve clearance inspection/adjustments) checks almost every box. Lightweight, decent brakes, suspension, enough Hp/Tq, cruise control etc. Sadly, KTM plays too many games with recalls or not doing recalls in addition to their ludicrous pay to play features. Whatever you're riding, stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
@@Chase_N guess what i ride? ... K... T... M... x90 too many problems, wasted money, quality of a noname manufacturer. The brand might remain, but all the former customers will be screwed either way, nobody will pay to fix someone else mistakes.
@@showmytime9177 Not servicing current customers issues/claims would drive anyone who buys or takes over KTM deeper into the hole. They'd have to establish good will (plan on spending more money than just the acquisition cost) immediately upon takeover or they'll fail like the last group in charge. The only way to fix that bad rep is to go overboard with customer satisfaction. If they won't make people right, nobody will trust the new folks in charge. KTM is in a rough place and there's likely only one way through.
@@showmytime9177 I'm just trying to stay optimistic on the whole situation. I truly hope they make it right with past customers and folks like factory workers get to keep their jobs.
Yep, I have my TC turned down to the minimal level where TC isn't intrusive unless I get throttle happy. Even then, it's just a button on the throttle side hand control module to turn it off on the Pan Am. On a smaller bike with less Hp/Tq I wouldn't need it at all. It's not like I really need it now, I can't remember the last time it kicked in. Like I said in the video, I spent 13 years travelling my gravel and dirt road without TC or ABS, and with street tires to boot. TC and ABS is more for the street side of riding, though it's been a rarity for either to kick in on the street for me. ABS saved me from a deer and TC maybe made riding in the rain a little easier but really that's the few times I've had them activate. Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
@@Chase_N well i rode a 1190r for 25k/miles then a 1090r for 36k miles and always just turned both off but truth be told i have a Husky 901 now with all the levels & adjustability of tcs & abs on this bike , and have watched enough pro-rider videos and read a few tests or what not that say even Chris Birch uses it so i have been riding with it on but at the low end of the adjustment , the 1090r just has on or off for both
@@justsomedude445 That's my experience, TC/ABS on, set to minimal intrusiveness in my Pan Am's off-road custom mode. I watched a lot of videos about ADVs before buying my Pan Am and seen novices (like me) have issues with TC and ABS kicking in when they didn't want them too. Usually they'd have the bike slow too much and lose momentum up a hill due to the TC kicking in. Most of them never thought to turn the TC off or down to a lower level. The experience of riding cruisers, a naked, a sportbike, and a bagger without TC/ABS up and down my gravel road on street tires was sometimes quite scary, but it sure taught me a lot about throttle control and braking. Now, doing my steep hilled gravel road on my Pan Am is as easy as riding on pavement.
May Pan America and Ducati were the only bikes I've ever taken to a dealer for service. I stopped taking the Pan America after the warranty ran out. Unless I need major work I will not be back. All my Japanese bikes, I just changed the oil and oiled the chain. I only put 12k on my Triumph. Just did oil changes on that one.
I avoid the dealerships too and do all my own maintenance, even when I had a Japanese and an Italian bike. I do keep records of maintenance just to keep up my warranty, on paper and video in case the warranty company wants to play games. $300 to $1000 oil changes are insane, and I don't know anyone who pays those prices. If these companies would stop pushing all the gizmos to bloat the cost of bikes, they'd likely have a sales bonanza. I don't see people begging for 12 axis IMUs or radar monitored cruise control. Nope, just ABS, minimal TC, lighter weight, and cruise control. Things could really be simplified. Stay safe out there on that blue beauty, and thank you for watching!
I've been saying since 2021 Harley should put out a 975 model of the Pan America... Something a little lighter, easier to maneuver, it'd sell like hot cakes! Also have to agree with the cruise control. I've had it on both of my bike and love it. The times I've ridden bikes without it, I really miss it. Peace
Same here! I would LOVE to see a 975 Pan Am. Imagine that with 17" rims and cool super moto styling. They could sell a street and an off-road version. Just price it right and it will fly off the shelves.
fairly minimalist , as light as possible , high end quality manually adjustable & rebuildable proper off road capable suspension components , good brakes , 250 miles range per tank , cruise heated grips luggage rack ...................here's my checkbook
@@justsomedude445 Look at what you didn't include in that list, a big engine with high Hp/Tq numbers. Your list is pretty much THE ADV everyone is looking for.
Tiger 1200s were a consideration, except for 2 main issues, 1st being valve checks/service intervals at 20K miles. Yamaha beat it with 26K miles intervals. H-D's Pan Am has auto-adjusted hydraulic valves, no tearing the valve covers and the entire top end of the bike off at all. The other issue is dealer network, the closest Triumph dealer is over 100 miles away. I like Triumph a lot, but there are no dealers where I live. Yamaha, Honda, and H-D had dealers in my area and comparable or better service intervals. Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
Tuareg owner here.. it's actually a pretty easy bike to work on. Taking the fairings off is pretty straight forward. The only big issue is that they use a special valve shim. If you don't have a catalog of shims then you will have to wait on them once you figure out what you need. I did my valve adjustment over the summer and learned a lot about working on the bike. Now that I know what range of shims I need to buy then I can start ordering some shims for the future. BUT, if the Tuareg 457 actually becomes a thing.. then I would rather sell my 660 for the 457
Now that was something I didn't know about, special shims. The Tuareg was one of the bikes I looked at hardest when I decided on an ADV. The price wasn't bad, power, weight, mild electronic package, cruise control, and it was even attractive looking in comparison to most other ADVs. I still thinks it's as close to what many people are looking for. A lack of dealerships and the valve service intervals are all that holds it back I think. A 457 version with cruise control would be really nice, the 450cc segment is really growing. Even lighter, more MPGs, lower price, yeah that could be a winner. Stay safe out there and I just subbed your channel to see your experience with the Tuareg. Also, thank you for watching!
@@Chase_N I bought the Tuareg because I couldn't find a T7 to buy.. 15k miles on it so far without any issues. The biggest thing about Italian ownership is just being sure to order things before you need them. I can get spokes in a couple of weeks, but the spoke nipples? lol maybe in a couple months. AF1 had a take off throttle body assembly for $200 and a replacement OEM is over $600. You have to be a little bit more proactive with the Italians, but I still love the Tuareg 660 so far. It's such a good bike. I wouldn't own one as my only bike. I have a Honda that I use for commuting and it helped me scratch the bike riding itch while my Aprilia was down.
@@DonkeyDongDoug Yep, everything is a hurry up and wait with Euro bikes in the US. I had a Shiver before and broke a blinker, I waited 3 months and paid $150 back in 2011. Fast forward to buying my Pan Am and I backed up too close to my riding mower (exactly what I did on my Shiver) and snapped off a blinker. $75 and less than a week later I had everything fixed. I had a Sportster at the time so it was no big deal. I learned if I want a Euro bike, patience was something I better have in abundance and a 2nd bike to ride wouldn't hurt to have either.
I had a Tuareg. Great bike but valve check every 12000 miles and it's not cheap. I changed it for a Triumph Scrambler XE 1200. Not the lightest but 24000 valve checks, simple on off cruise control, I can see the spark plugs (!), and good looks. In my eyes it's perfect...have added useful parts from the triumph catalogue including crash bars, side bag, larger pegs (all the usual stuff)...more adventure bike than Scrambler. Not as top heavy as you might think like my old T7 was. Easy servicing. Thanks for your overview, subscribed 👍🏻
I wanted the Tuareg bad when it was 1st released but the valve checks/service intervals put me off. I knew from owning my Shiver that Aprilia service visits were expensive. The XE 1200 is one everyone forgets, but they're really good-looking and capable bikes if you're into classical styling (I'm one of them, I still like Sportsters too). A 24K mile valve service interval is very nice,18K+ is really where they need to be if they're going to ignore auto-adjusted hydraulic valves. Being able to easily replace spark plugs is another issue. My Pan Am wasn't impossible, but it made me miss my older bikes. Thank you for the sub, I checked your channel and subbed myself. Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
I enjoy watching almost anything to do with motorcycles, but I found this to be particularly good and entertaining. One thing I must say is that I don't understand all the fuss about cruise control, something I've never even considered in my 62 years of riding bikes. I don't even use it in my car. That may be because I don't live in the USA where hills and corners don't exist, and also explains the Harley-Davidson, which, notwithstanding its engineering excellence, is just a Cadillac on two wheels. I hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers. I live in KZN, South Africa, where all we have is hills, valleys and lots of corners: the best riding in the world, especially off-road.
With cruise control, it's a big deal because you can eat slabs all day here in the US. Iron Butt is a thing here, 1000 miles in less than 24 hours. Cannonball Run, near 3000 miles in 33-35 hours. It's a vast place and while there's plenty of bar/pub hopping, you can really take long trips and never leave the country. That's all before you ever start venturing into Canada or Mexico too. There are lots of hills & corners here in Appalachia, some of the best riding in the country and I enjoy riding around here but yeah, much of the country is straight lines. Just the freeway I live near, Interstate 70, is 2,171 miles long, and is only the 5th longest interstate Rt. here in the US. We also have a ton of gravel/dirt/fireroads etc available, so a do it all bike is nice to have. A lot of it is based on where you live. If I still lived in the city, I'd likely have a bagger or sport tourer, I'd never see gravel. The closest large city is 100 miles away though, I live on a gravel road with steep hills, and my entire area is curves and steep hills, and a mountain. A bike that'll do the gravel and dirt, handle curves, hills, and that mountain with ease, then comfortably do a long stretch on the freeway with cruise control is a superb option. A jack of all trades bike is sensible for a lot of people here in the US. Like I said in the video, I did it for 13 years on other bikes, but having an ADV has made it so much easier and enjoyable. It's a big part of motorcycling, enjoyment. You could do everything you do on a bike on 4 wheels, but you probably won't enjoy it as much. lol, or suffer for that matter. Stay safe out there in South Africa, I've watched quite a few videos of the riding there and it really is beautiful. Also, thank you for watching!
I'm right there with you. I'm 68. Been riding since I was in elementary school. I've had many bikes with cruise control. My Street Glide ST that I have now has it. I couldn't tell you how to turn it on. Never used it. I took a Gold Wing from CA to Colorado. Never used the cruise. It's definitely nowhere near a deal breaker for me.
@@perfectlynormal5729 It's really about being able to relax a little and not losing speed and being a hinderance to anyone around you while also giving yourself a break. Stay safe out there on that ST and thank you for watching!
@@Chase_N I may be old but I've never had a problem with losing speed and becoming a hinderance to anyone. Thanks for your advice though, whippersnapper.
@@perfectlynormal5729 I mostly use it for maintaining speed, fuel economy, and just so I can plan for when I'm going to be somewhere. It's mostly an OCD thing. In addition to my other considerations, I'm always worried letting off of the throttle around any vehicle could cause an issue. People are absolutely oblivious now with many on their phones. Any change at all can startle them into making a mistake that costs you more than it could ever cost them. I had a friend get rear ended by a driver not paying attention, he'd let off of the throttle to rest his hand. The driver said she didn't notice him slow a little and her car rear ended him at 70mph. He survived but was badly hurt. Then there's Teslas, in autodrive they hit pedestrians and motorcycles all the time. Sadly, the world isn't what it used to be, not even when I started riding 14 years ago. I can't imagine riding in the 70s, 80s, or 90s, it had to be better than it is now though. Stay safe out there old timer, we need all the people we can get on 2 wheels!
Good video. I had Buells and Ducatis for decades, but I'm now down to a Honda crf300 rally, as I want an off-road tourer that's under 400# fuelled and loaded with gear; I no longer want to pick up anything heavier.
That's pretty much what you hear from everyone now. Freeway capable, light, minimal electronics, with enough luggage to take a trip. I have a feeling some manufacturer will be along to give it to us, it's just a matter of time. Stay safe out there on that Rally, it's another one I've looked at as a 2nd bike, and thank you for watching!
@@Davran2742 I mentioned them in the video, China is really throwing everything at the motorcycle market (Kove and CFMoto specifically), taking chances, and actually listening to customers. Sometimes I wonder if the other manufacturers have a gentlemen's agreement to only give us some of what we want? The only issue I see at the moment is parts availability and there being a sparce dealership network. Of course, I'm neglecting the politics. I do find it funny people won't buy a Chinese made CFMoto or Kove but buying everything else in their lives like electronics, clothing, etc is perfectly OK though. Really puzzles me. Maybe they'll push the other manufacturers to do better?
42 years on road, 8 years off road as a teen. Quite a time spent riding motocross and enduro on a vintage 1974 Yamaha DT400, stripped for off road and hotted up. I've ridden bikes mostly without ABS and TCS, I use to do a lot of dirt road riding on road bikes, before we had adventure bikes. I currently have a 1988 Lowrider, hotted up and with a sidecar at present, had it for 35 years; and a 2022 Pan America Special. I think we are spoilt with modern bikes. I have taken my Pan Am on trails, it is capable but too heavy, I use it as a sports tourer, commuter and mountain road bike. If I really want to go off road, I think a 50hp Royal Enfield Bear, with some mods would be fine, it would run rings around what I use to ride off road, even if it is not the best.
Yeah, we're spoiled, but it's funny that people online always say they want less. The companies just keep adding tech though. I only bought my Pan Am because it was the most function per dollar I could get. If it hadn't been on sale for $15K, I'd likely have an Africa Twin, it was the next best option for a do all bike. The Tenere' 700 was a consideration, but no cruise control put it lower than the AT. A TransAlp with cruise control would be a best seller, but it would kill AT sales. The 1st company who decides to do it on light or middleweight ADVs at a reasonable price will reign supreme. RE is a big consideration for a 2nd bike. I've been specifically looking at KLX300s, KLRs, Sportsters, REs, and used smaller models from the other Japanese brands too. The new Bear in the minty green and white special edition really appeals to me. If RE were to ever toss cruise control on the Bear or the 450 Himalayan, it'll be over for a bunch of companies who make light to middleweight ADVs. Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
You make some very valid points. I totally agree with you on making ease of basic maintenance, like filter changes which you have to do more often if you live in a dusty environment or spend a lot of time off tarmac. Cruise control should be standard on bikes capable of long interstate runs at high speeds. If horsepower doesn't affect fuel mileage significantly, I don't mind having over 100 ponies and my ADV is really good on fuel. I prefer the size and height of the large bikes because I am tall and large. The smaller ADV's under 1 liter were not as comfortable. I really appreciate shaft drive over chain, but I daily ride my bike and use it for everything. Unfortunately H-D and KTM have dug themselves into a hole and outside of a bailout and complete change of upper management will not survive. It is sad, but you ultimately reap what you sow.
I think middleweight ADVs are a sweet spot for most people, the Tenere' 700 being just right sized for just about everyone, myself included (admittedly it's on the taller side but it does have lowering kits available for shorter people). It's likely the simplest, middleweight, but even the updated 2025 will be missing cruise control. Of course, they'd rather sell you the Super Tenere', so no cruise control or shaft drive on the 700. The problem is, I looked for a Super and couldn't find one within 1000 miles of me when I bought my Pan Am. They just don't make enough Super Ts. There's only one new Super T in 1K miles of me. A sub 500 lb 975 Pan Am minus all the electronics except simple ABS, TC, and Cruise Control, with a shaft drive, auto adjusted hydraulic valves, and an easily removable air filter done for around $15K would destroy the competition. But sadly, I fear H-D only cares about top dollar wallet drainers and "premiumness". H-D is only slightly better off than KTM, and that honestly could be due to the old joke about them being a clothing company who just happens to sell bikes. Hopefully both pull through, I hate to see any company fail. Bloated management I could care less about, I hate to see the employees who do all the actual work suffer due to that bloated management's bad decisions. Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
I need a small, lightweight dual sport that can do like 70 on the highway and most importantly has like a 200 mile range. I have to travel far to get to the good stuff. Again, small.
That's how it is for me too, a 1.5-2 hour trip to any large city or to visit friends and family. I love the Pan Am but it's a bit much to be honest. You start factoring everything in and a bike in the 400cc-900cc range, light, freeway capable, with few electronics (a 12 axis IMU and radar are not needed nor have they been asked for) like basic ABS and cruise control with easy minimal maintenance is about all most people seem to want. Instead, we get more expensive and complicated bikes and then manufacturers scratch their heads as to why 2023 models are still sitting on showroom floors in December of 2024. Maybe Kawasaki with that teaser 500 ADV at EICMA will be a winner? Or maybe someone else is releasing something next year we've yet to hear about that'll fill those needs/wants? Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
I can't like this video enough. For me the perfect adventure bike has at least 100hp, cruise control, heated grips, good suspension and seats. It doesn't need all the fancy electronic bells and whistles that can break. The suspension if good, once you set the preload and damping you seldom touch it again unless there is a major change like packing for a long trip vs running around locally. As long as it is easy to access I would rather it not have electronics. Air filter access and general servicing should be simple like you said. A guy shouldn't have to take half the bike apart to change a filter or check valves. If you think changing the air filter is bad on the PanAm you should see what it is like on a Goldwing. The only electronic thing I really enjoyed on bikes was Apple carplay as it is so integrated. I can easily live without it as I can just link my phone to my helmet . So stuff like that being nice isn't needed. The phone/nav/music set up on the Pan Am sucks to put it bluntly. Easier not to use it at all and use your phone linked to the helmet or even add a gps and just use you phone for music etc. I had shaft drive on my Super Tenere and it was great, zero issues the whole time I owned it. With that said it doesn't kill be to care for a chain but shaft is much better if you do long trips. The Super Tenere I owned was a super trouble free bike that I took several nice long trips up to 5,000 miles on. It's downside was the access to the head for valves and it didn't like high cross winds. Also the stock suspension was way too soft on it.
I'm glad you enjoyed the video! The Super Tenere' was a bike I wanted to look at, I was never able to find one for sale around me though. Shaft drive is the way to go, and Yamaha is all about building things that last. I can stand the chain drive though, at least maintenance is fairly straightforward and relatively easy. I've never had music on a bike so it's not something I miss but some people are into it, the Pan Am is kind of terrible when it comes to connectivity. I ended up just using my cell on the bars with a cheap mount but there are plenty of standalone GPS units that'll work too. Now, let's hope a manufacturer listens to any of it and decides they'd like more of our business. Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
Love my PAS but I think you're right in that if they'd offered a smaller version of that engine at a relatively lower price they would have moved more units. Talking in the ~$12-15k range where many would feel more comfortable pulling the trigger - esp if it's going to be their 'other' or secondary bike - or maybe their first HD? Bikes in the $20k+ ranges are a different breed of buyer and if they want to make hay in the adventure segment, and sell to a younger segment of buyers - they need to find ways to bring those price points down. My .02 - peace!
I love my PAS too, but I've learned something a little lighter, smaller, with less Hp/Tq, and less gizmos would fill my needs just as well. $20K is steep when you have no other option in the lineup. If H-D downsized the Pan Am I'd be on board with it for sure. The profit margins are lower, but the potential for higher sales would make up for it. There was talk of a 975 Pan Am, but who knows if it's still in the cards. I hope it is, that it's 490 lbs or less, has cruise control, costs $15K or less, and has minimal electronics. Too bad about KTM, the 2025 390 ADV R sure is interesting. Maybe they'll pull out a miracle? Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
But I don't have a disproportionately loud voice, do I? At least if we're talking subscribers... I am a loud person IRL I guess. And hey, I've bought 7 bikes in 13 years, that's way more than a couple! lol, stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
The Pan Am was my second choice as I like the shaft drive on my Tiger GT Explorer 1200. I totally agree the valve adjustment is a money grab like the ECM programs. I don't believe the electronics add much weight but the features are nice. I had a Victory Judge before and loved it for its simplicity and reliability.
I feel like a lot of the maintenance stuff is a money grab. Make maintenance just enough of a hassle that the customer will either neglect it or opt for the dealer to do it. Shaft drive is uber nice, I wish the PA came with one. A chain is reliable enough and easy to clean and lube for maintenance, I'd previously looked at the Africa Twin so I was prepped for doing chain maintenance. Victory was great, it got a raw deal because Polaris saw the Indian brand name they acquired as more profitable. It was, but leaving behind all those early adopters that gave Polaris a shot (and the chance to build bikes at all) just seemed really wrong to a lot of people, including me. The Judge was a fav, the Octane and High Ball too. Everything they made looked fast sitting still. Stay safe out there on that Tiger GT and thank you for watching!
Probably the Moto Guzzi V85Tt would fit the bill..shaft drive..near 100 hp..valve adjustment easy to do if needed..onlt problem..is the lack of dealers in the US..Ride Safe😊
Oh, I do love the Guzzis, and the valve clearance adjustments (even though they should be a relic of a bygone era) are easily accessible, I did consider it at one point. But like you said, finding a dealer here in 'merica is near impossible. There are only 85 total in the USA, but hey, there's one just over 100 miles away from me. The V85TT is very nice, the new Stelvio too, especially in that Duecento Tributo red, white, and blue livery. The V85TT was one I considered, but H-D just made me a better offer for a Pan Am at the time. I have a while to think about it, my Pan Am is covered for another 4.5 years on warranty. I'm sure someone will scratch that itch at some point, possibly even H-D. Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
Oh, CFMoto has been very impressive lately, that's why I included their logo in the thumbnail. The updated Ibex/MT 800 is coming down the pipe too, they may have something there depending on the weight it comes in at. By all accounts the Ibex/MT 450 is a great bike too but it is sans cruise control but does have a 18K mile valve check/adjustment interval so I'd get more than a year before having to tear into it. I didn't forget them, it's just I haven't seen any shipped to my local dealer (funny, I have a CFMoto dealer 25 miles away but the closest Aprilia dealer is over 100 from me). I'm waiting for the dealer to get a tester in. They said Oct but it 450 still hasn't shipped. I even like the way they look. There's also mumbling/rumbling CFMoto could be in the running to take over KTM. Who knows at this point, but it could change things overnight. Thank you for watching and stay safe out the on that 450!
Oh, I know, they were in the running when I looked at bikes. I'd have went for a Tenere 700 if they had only tossed cruise control on it. The 2025 model doesn't have it either, but it does have an electronic throttle now, so it's possible to add it. Maybe for 2026? All I know is whoever does it 1st will have the most coveted middleweight ADV bike on the market. Honda could do it on the TransAlp or Suzuki on their V-Strom 800 and get a big win. Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
What do real adventure riders want? How about under 400 lbs., 30 to 60 hp, 33" or lower seat height, 17 or 18" rear tire and 21" front tire, 8" - 9" ground clearance, 6 speeds, 6" - 8" wheel travel front and back, gets 60+ mpg and has a minimum 4 gallon capacity fuel tank, easy access air and oil filters, LED lighting, heated grips, a comfortable seat, some wind protection, aluminum hand guards, meaningful skid plate, high exit exhaust, rear rack, and other than EFI and electronic ignition, NO other electronics. Every year Adventure bikes get more and more electronics. Not only is that just more to go wrong in the backcountry but it adds weight and prevents the owner from doing any type of fix when it does break. I've been to various Rallys and talked to a lot of riders and found that around 90% of owners never take their GS BMW offroad. Why? The answer I got was that it is too hard to clean. Most riders with adventure bikes use them as very comfortable touring rigs and like the look but have no intentions of riding offroad. The adventure should not be trying to keep the bike upright and on the wheels.
That's pretty much where I'm at. I think ABS and TC is added due to regulations/laws in many countries so it could be unavoidable. They could just use the simplest versions (I think I said that in the video) of both though if they have to be on there by law. What they could drop are the 6/12 axis IMUs, radar, and anything that's not simple. lol, I took my Pan Am out when my gravel road was a mud pit the 1st week of December; it was a weekend, 45*F and sunny, I had to ride. A hose, some Meguires, and time was all it took to clean. But you're right, most ADV riders I've met freak when they get their bike dirty. It's the same with a lot of bagger guys though too. Me, every time I leave on my gravel road it's a dust or mud bath so cleaning is just a fact of life. Oh, and the bugs, they likely see me as a genocidal maniac and the Pan Am as my WMD at this point. Stay safe out there and thank you for watching
I think that'd make a lot of people happy! Most ADVs have lowering kits available along with 1 inch lower seats. You can get a Pan Am down to around a 30 inch seat height (my old Fat Bob was around that height), but there are other ADVs that have the same options available too! Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
I just discovered the V-Strom 250. Apparently the focus groups said no. The focus groups should all be fired. And the ADV 350 by Honda. Won't happen here it seems. The GB 350 is coming ( not here ) and all the Moar Powah Morons online want a GB 500. Everyone just needs to STFU if they can't say something positive about a motorcycle we could get but don't get. The Ibex 450 looks great and I hope they sell a ton but whoa boy the pre-order prices! Looks like I'm going have to transition to bikes from big scooters on a TU250X or an EX500. DL650, KLR650 once I get my shifting down - those are the most available and affordable bikes. We need more small ADVs for our horrible city streets. UK/Euro bikes should be automatically allowed for import on the grey market from new. Maybe Elon can help with that? American market scooters just get destroyed along with your body.
Small bikes are always fun bikes, a lighter bike with just enough Hp/Tq will always be in demand. The Ibex/MT 450 looks fantastic and every test video I've seen has people really excited about them. I included CFMoto's logo in the thumbnail because it seems they're really trying to give people what they want. Chinese made or not, CFMoto is really giving the other manufacturers a run for their money. City streets are getting bad in the last few years, and I wonder if it's one of the reasons dual sports and ADVs are so in demand? Small capacity DSs like KLX300s are in demand in the city (unusual because when I was a kid it was a bike people in the country bought) but gas prices may also be playing a role in that. Have hope, the economy, fuel prices, and a myriad of other factors may bring small capacity bikes back to the forefront. Sadly, it may end up because these companies will find it's all they're able to sell to stay afloat. Thank you for watching and stay safe out there on those lightweight, fuel sipping, little zippers!
Oh man, this was one of the videos that made me look for one. I might've had one except I think the closest one was more than 1K miles away at that point.
I was so against all the electronics on bikes and here I am now on a Pan Am enjoying the heck out of them :) I do agree though, there needs to be a balance between features and value. I'm guessing the real reason why no one is building a unicorn is because it will cannibalize their own sales. Many of us are looking for that one bike, but the real solution is to have several bikes. Of course affordability and space are a huge issue, especially now.
I think the cost (people just have less money to spend) is what will push manufacturers to simplify. I love my Pan Am, but there's an opening for a lighter ADV with minimal electronics like ABS, traction control, cruise control, with middling Hp/Tq. Yeah, it'll cannibalize some of the larger bike sales that manufacturer makes, but it'll likely eviscerate the sales of every other manufacturer they compete against at the same time. 12 axis IMUs, radar assisted cruise control, blindspot monitoring, etc are just add ons to jack up the cost. Like you said, affordability and space are huge issues. It'll force their hands, whichever one does it 1st will win big.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
That is the reason for no cruise control on the Transalp... if they do, why buy the Africa Twin? Companies consider their whole lineup, not just trying to make 1 great bike.
@@joeln6861 It used to be that way with cars too, but now even the lowliest econobox comes with cruise control. Manufacturers are facing a rough go and any advantage could save a sales year.
There will always be the guy who wants the "biggest, bestest, most advanced" thingamajig. With the economy tightening and sales being harder to come by. Those sales are going fall no matter what and they'll lose out because big ADVs will sit on showroom floors only to be discounted in the end. It's happening at this very moment with 2023 and 2024 models. Some are being sold for the same price as middleweights.
The main way to get an edge now is to add a feature like cruise control. In the middleweight category, someone will do it besides Aprilia on their 660 Tuareg, and it'll massively eat into sales of all the other makers. They may not like it, but they will accept it.
Thank you for watching , stay safe out there!
Amen Brother.... Cruise control...YES, Yes and YES!!! So far the Moto Guzzi V85 is ticking aa lot of boxes here.
Merry Christmas all.
The V85TTs are a consideration for a new bike. They have them on discount at the "local" dealership right now. Local as in over 100 miles away, I'd have to be very positive about a purchase. I still have another 4.5 years on my Pan Am's warranty so tt could be awhile until I buy a new bike unless someone comes out with something compelling.
Stay safe out there my fellow Italian bike enthusiast, and thank you for watching!
@@Chase_N And to you.
I'm impressed anyone is still looking at ADV, after 10 years I'm more than ready to go back to sports touring. What I've discovered is that I'm not Ewan McGregor and I have zero chance of travelling the road of bones.
I think a lot of people see ADVs for possibilities, not what they'll actually do with them. Close to or the same comfort level as an ST/Touring with similar Hp/Tq, luggage capabilities, and general amenities/gizmos. I'd likely still be on a bagger like my Road King if I hadn't test ridden an ADV.
I also looked at STs; the Ninja 1000SE and Tracer 9 specifically, but my steep hilled gravel road made me reconsider. Then, like I said, a ride on an ADV changed my mind. Now, will most people ever see as much gravel as my Pan Am sees? Not likely, but the possibility they could do gravel or dirt is the draw.
SUVs and big pickup trucks have become popular for the same reason. "I'll never haul a load in the bed or need to have the 4WD engaged, but hey, why shouldn't I have the option?"
Stay safe out there, get that ST (it's a great option most folks won't even consider) and thank you for watching!
I like that you mention the air filter and valve adjustment intervals. That’s something I always look at on a prospective new bike and it’s (the air filter) that kept the Pan-Am off my list. The only thing I’d add to your list is tubeless wheels. I’m not gonna pull a wheel off a bike on the side of the road to repair a flat. If I can’t fix it with a plug then I’ll fix it with a cell phone and a credit card.
I forgot about tubeless rims, thanks for reminding me! Manufacturers, add it to the list! Tubeless rims are a big deal. I actually had to plug a tire less than 1K miles after I bought my Pan Am. It was so much easier than the swapping the inner tube on my old Sportster.
Yeah, the air filter was a hard sell for me, but no valve clearance checks/adjustments had me look past it. Valve clearance checks/adjustments are worse all the way around on every bike I've had which required them. The only bikes I'd buy now that require them are the Moto Guzzis and BMW GS, the valves are easy to get to without tearing half the bike apart.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
@ good point on swapping out the air filter change for not having to do the valves on the Pan Am, that does save a lot of money not having to do that.
I can live without most of the gadgets that come on most modern motorcycles.
That being said the adaptive ride height and hill hold are two I would keep on any tall and heavy bike.
I really appreciate both on the PA Special.
For simplicity I ride my KLR 650 and my barebones 07 Sportster 1200.
Love them both.
I think a lot of the height issue could be solved with better seats and height adjustable suspension. My custom modes are both set with the ARH turned off, but my custom off-road mode has it on.
It wouldn't make a difference to most people if the bike stayed at the lowered height (there's still 7 to 8 inches of ride height even when it's activated), so the fact that there isn't an option for that doesn't make sense. There are also ride height lowering kits for that Pan Am (remember, they sold some original PAs as non S models without the electronic suspension/ARH).
I was actually looking at Kawi KLR650s the other day, 2023/2024 models are running in the $4500-$5K range, very interesting. Plus, they're cockroach bikes, simple, hearty, and tons of parts availability. A fine 2nd bike, and of course Sportsters are too, I miss both of my XLs.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
Agree with most everything you brought up. I don't mind doing a valve check for the right bike, but I think you got a point that auto-valves should be achievable for all manufacturers.
If it's easily accessible like on BMW Boxers & Guzzis it becomes less of an issue. Having to tear down your bike for hours just to check and possibly add shims is too much though.
Doing the spark plugs involved a lot of parts removal on the Pan Am I didn't expect (2 plugs per cylinder, 1 in the top of the front head was buried and hard to manage with the frame being a hinderance) , but with longer lasting platinum plugs it'd only be every 20K miles or so. It's not too awful but it could've been easier. Dual plugs right next to each other on the side of the heads would've worked fine, there's 1 plug there already.
I'd have had to go even deeper into the bike if I had to do valve clearance checks. Likely another hour of labor or more and getting feeler gauges in there would almost require a magic trick. If I actually had to take anything apart and add shims, it'd be kind of rough due to a lack of room to operate around the head of the front cylinder.
Manufacturers could do it. After all, "tractor manufacturer", "yesterdays tech at tomorrows prices" H-D figured it out. At this point, manufacturers really have no excuses.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
remember that KTM can't figure out how to build a engine that lasts 30000km without chewing the cams
I really want KTM to succeed, if they could get it together they'd be the manufacturer to beat. The 2025 390 ADV R (besides the less than 12K mile valve clearance inspection/adjustments) checks almost every box. Lightweight, decent brakes, suspension, enough Hp/Tq, cruise control etc.
Sadly, KTM plays too many games with recalls or not doing recalls in addition to their ludicrous pay to play features.
Whatever you're riding, stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
@@Chase_N guess what i ride?
...
K... T... M... x90
too many problems, wasted money, quality of a noname manufacturer. The brand might remain, but all the former customers will be screwed either way, nobody will pay to fix someone else mistakes.
@@showmytime9177 Not servicing current customers issues/claims would drive anyone who buys or takes over KTM deeper into the hole. They'd have to establish good will (plan on spending more money than just the acquisition cost) immediately upon takeover or they'll fail like the last group in charge.
The only way to fix that bad rep is to go overboard with customer satisfaction. If they won't make people right, nobody will trust the new folks in charge. KTM is in a rough place and there's likely only one way through.
@Chase_N we shall see.
@@showmytime9177 I'm just trying to stay optimistic on the whole situation. I truly hope they make it right with past customers and folks like factory workers get to keep their jobs.
off roaders turn both abs and traction control off and leave it off usually
Yep, I have my TC turned down to the minimal level where TC isn't intrusive unless I get throttle happy. Even then, it's just a button on the throttle side hand control module to turn it off on the Pan Am.
On a smaller bike with less Hp/Tq I wouldn't need it at all. It's not like I really need it now, I can't remember the last time it kicked in. Like I said in the video, I spent 13 years travelling my gravel and dirt road without TC or ABS, and with street tires to boot.
TC and ABS is more for the street side of riding, though it's been a rarity for either to kick in on the street for me. ABS saved me from a deer and TC maybe made riding in the rain a little easier but really that's the few times I've had them activate.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
@@Chase_N well i rode a 1190r for 25k/miles then a 1090r for 36k miles and always just turned both off but truth be told i have a Husky 901 now with all the levels & adjustability of tcs & abs on this bike , and have watched enough pro-rider videos and read a few tests or what not that say even Chris Birch uses it so i have been riding with it on but at the low end of the adjustment , the 1090r just has on or off for both
@@justsomedude445 That's my experience, TC/ABS on, set to minimal intrusiveness in my Pan Am's off-road custom mode.
I watched a lot of videos about ADVs before buying my Pan Am and seen novices (like me) have issues with TC and ABS kicking in when they didn't want them too. Usually they'd have the bike slow too much and lose momentum up a hill due to the TC kicking in. Most of them never thought to turn the TC off or down to a lower level.
The experience of riding cruisers, a naked, a sportbike, and a bagger without TC/ABS up and down my gravel road on street tires was sometimes quite scary, but it sure taught me a lot about throttle control and braking. Now, doing my steep hilled gravel road on my Pan Am is as easy as riding on pavement.
May Pan America and Ducati were the only bikes I've ever taken to a dealer for service. I stopped taking the Pan America after the warranty ran out. Unless I need major work I will not be back. All my Japanese bikes, I just changed the oil and oiled the chain. I only put 12k on my Triumph. Just did oil changes on that one.
I avoid the dealerships too and do all my own maintenance, even when I had a Japanese and an Italian bike. I do keep records of maintenance just to keep up my warranty, on paper and video in case the warranty company wants to play games.
$300 to $1000 oil changes are insane, and I don't know anyone who pays those prices.
If these companies would stop pushing all the gizmos to bloat the cost of bikes, they'd likely have a sales bonanza. I don't see people begging for 12 axis IMUs or radar monitored cruise control. Nope, just ABS, minimal TC, lighter weight, and cruise control. Things could really be simplified.
Stay safe out there on that blue beauty, and thank you for watching!
I've been saying since 2021 Harley should put out a 975 model of the Pan America... Something a little lighter, easier to maneuver, it'd sell like hot cakes!
Also have to agree with the cruise control. I've had it on both of my bike and love it. The times I've ridden bikes without it, I really miss it.
Peace
Maybe this year is the year that H-D finally listens to everyone? We can only hope.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
Same here! I would LOVE to see a 975 Pan Am. Imagine that with 17" rims and cool super moto styling. They could sell a street and an off-road version. Just price it right and it will fly off the shelves.
fairly minimalist , as light as possible , high end quality manually adjustable & rebuildable proper off road capable suspension components , good brakes , 250 miles range per tank , cruise heated grips luggage rack ...................here's my checkbook
@@justsomedude445 Look at what you didn't include in that list, a big engine with high Hp/Tq numbers. Your list is pretty much THE ADV everyone is looking for.
@@Chase_N WELL 100hp or close & 2cyl assumed ?
Buy a Triumph. LOL
Tiger 1200s were a consideration, except for 2 main issues, 1st being valve checks/service intervals at 20K miles. Yamaha beat it with 26K miles intervals. H-D's Pan Am has auto-adjusted hydraulic valves, no tearing the valve covers and the entire top end of the bike off at all.
The other issue is dealer network, the closest Triumph dealer is over 100 miles away. I like Triumph a lot, but there are no dealers where I live. Yamaha, Honda, and H-D had dealers in my area and comparable or better service intervals.
Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
Tuareg owner here.. it's actually a pretty easy bike to work on. Taking the fairings off is pretty straight forward. The only big issue is that they use a special valve shim. If you don't have a catalog of shims then you will have to wait on them once you figure out what you need. I did my valve adjustment over the summer and learned a lot about working on the bike. Now that I know what range of shims I need to buy then I can start ordering some shims for the future.
BUT, if the Tuareg 457 actually becomes a thing.. then I would rather sell my 660 for the 457
Now that was something I didn't know about, special shims. The Tuareg was one of the bikes I looked at hardest when I decided on an ADV. The price wasn't bad, power, weight, mild electronic package, cruise control, and it was even attractive looking in comparison to most other ADVs.
I still thinks it's as close to what many people are looking for. A lack of dealerships and the valve service intervals are all that holds it back I think.
A 457 version with cruise control would be really nice, the 450cc segment is really growing. Even lighter, more MPGs, lower price, yeah that could be a winner.
Stay safe out there and I just subbed your channel to see your experience with the Tuareg. Also, thank you for watching!
@@Chase_N I bought the Tuareg because I couldn't find a T7 to buy.. 15k miles on it so far without any issues.
The biggest thing about Italian ownership is just being sure to order things before you need them. I can get spokes in a couple of weeks, but the spoke nipples? lol maybe in a couple months. AF1 had a take off throttle body assembly for $200 and a replacement OEM is over $600.
You have to be a little bit more proactive with the Italians, but I still love the Tuareg 660 so far. It's such a good bike. I wouldn't own one as my only bike. I have a Honda that I use for commuting and it helped me scratch the bike riding itch while my Aprilia was down.
@@DonkeyDongDoug Yep, everything is a hurry up and wait with Euro bikes in the US. I had a Shiver before and broke a blinker, I waited 3 months and paid $150 back in 2011. Fast forward to buying my Pan Am and I backed up too close to my riding mower (exactly what I did on my Shiver) and snapped off a blinker. $75 and less than a week later I had everything fixed. I had a Sportster at the time so it was no big deal. I learned if I want a Euro bike, patience was something I better have in abundance and a 2nd bike to ride wouldn't hurt to have either.
I had a Tuareg. Great bike but valve check every 12000 miles and it's not cheap. I changed it for a Triumph Scrambler XE 1200. Not the lightest but 24000 valve checks, simple on off cruise control, I can see the spark plugs (!), and good looks. In my eyes it's perfect...have added useful parts from the triumph catalogue including crash bars, side bag, larger pegs (all the usual stuff)...more adventure bike than Scrambler. Not as top heavy as you might think like my old T7 was. Easy servicing. Thanks for your overview, subscribed 👍🏻
I wanted the Tuareg bad when it was 1st released but the valve checks/service intervals put me off. I knew from owning my Shiver that Aprilia service visits were expensive. The XE 1200 is one everyone forgets, but they're really good-looking and capable bikes if you're into classical styling (I'm one of them, I still like Sportsters too).
A 24K mile valve service interval is very nice,18K+ is really where they need to be if they're going to ignore auto-adjusted hydraulic valves. Being able to easily replace spark plugs is another issue. My Pan Am wasn't impossible, but it made me miss my older bikes. Thank you for the sub, I checked your channel and subbed myself.
Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
I enjoy watching almost anything to do with motorcycles, but I found this to be particularly good and entertaining. One thing I must say is that I don't understand all the fuss about cruise control, something I've never even considered in my 62 years of riding bikes. I don't even use it in my car. That may be because I don't live in the USA where hills and corners don't exist, and also explains the Harley-Davidson, which, notwithstanding its engineering excellence, is just a Cadillac on two wheels. I hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers. I live in KZN, South Africa, where all we have is hills, valleys and lots of corners: the best riding in the world, especially off-road.
With cruise control, it's a big deal because you can eat slabs all day here in the US. Iron Butt is a thing here, 1000 miles in less than 24 hours. Cannonball Run, near 3000 miles in 33-35 hours. It's a vast place and while there's plenty of bar/pub hopping, you can really take long trips and never leave the country. That's all before you ever start venturing into Canada or Mexico too.
There are lots of hills & corners here in Appalachia, some of the best riding in the country and I enjoy riding around here but yeah, much of the country is straight lines. Just the freeway I live near, Interstate 70, is 2,171 miles long, and is only the 5th longest interstate Rt. here in the US. We also have a ton of gravel/dirt/fireroads etc available, so a do it all bike is nice to have.
A lot of it is based on where you live. If I still lived in the city, I'd likely have a bagger or sport tourer, I'd never see gravel. The closest large city is 100 miles away though, I live on a gravel road with steep hills, and my entire area is curves and steep hills, and a mountain. A bike that'll do the gravel and dirt, handle curves, hills, and that mountain with ease, then comfortably do a long stretch on the freeway with cruise control is a superb option.
A jack of all trades bike is sensible for a lot of people here in the US. Like I said in the video, I did it for 13 years on other bikes, but having an ADV has made it so much easier and enjoyable. It's a big part of motorcycling, enjoyment. You could do everything you do on a bike on 4 wheels, but you probably won't enjoy it as much. lol, or suffer for that matter.
Stay safe out there in South Africa, I've watched quite a few videos of the riding there and it really is beautiful. Also, thank you for watching!
I'm right there with you. I'm 68. Been riding since I was in elementary school. I've had many bikes with cruise control. My Street Glide ST that I have now has it. I couldn't tell you how to turn it on. Never used it. I took a Gold Wing from CA to Colorado. Never used the cruise. It's definitely nowhere near a deal breaker for me.
@@perfectlynormal5729 It's really about being able to relax a little and not losing speed and being a hinderance to anyone around you while also giving yourself a break.
Stay safe out there on that ST and thank you for watching!
@@Chase_N I may be old but I've never had a problem with losing speed and becoming a hinderance to anyone. Thanks for your advice though, whippersnapper.
@@perfectlynormal5729 I mostly use it for maintaining speed, fuel economy, and just so I can plan for when I'm going to be somewhere. It's mostly an OCD thing.
In addition to my other considerations, I'm always worried letting off of the throttle around any vehicle could cause an issue. People are absolutely oblivious now with many on their phones. Any change at all can startle them into making a mistake that costs you more than it could ever cost them. I had a friend get rear ended by a driver not paying attention, he'd let off of the throttle to rest his hand. The driver said she didn't notice him slow a little and her car rear ended him at 70mph. He survived but was badly hurt.
Then there's Teslas, in autodrive they hit pedestrians and motorcycles all the time. Sadly, the world isn't what it used to be, not even when I started riding 14 years ago. I can't imagine riding in the 70s, 80s, or 90s, it had to be better than it is now though.
Stay safe out there old timer, we need all the people we can get on 2 wheels!
Good video. I had Buells and Ducatis for decades, but I'm now down to a Honda crf300 rally, as I want an off-road tourer that's under 400# fuelled and loaded with gear; I no longer want to pick up anything heavier.
That's pretty much what you hear from everyone now. Freeway capable, light, minimal electronics, with enough luggage to take a trip. I have a feeling some manufacturer will be along to give it to us, it's just a matter of time.
Stay safe out there on that Rally, it's another one I've looked at as a 2nd bike, and thank you for watching!
@Chase_N I wish honda made a sligbtly-bigger 400-450 rally. The Chinese Kove 450 rally is the real deal, and has an 8-gal fuel capacity.
@@Davran2742 I mentioned them in the video, China is really throwing everything at the motorcycle market (Kove and CFMoto specifically), taking chances, and actually listening to customers. Sometimes I wonder if the other manufacturers have a gentlemen's agreement to only give us some of what we want? The only issue I see at the moment is parts availability and there being a sparce dealership network.
Of course, I'm neglecting the politics. I do find it funny people won't buy a Chinese made CFMoto or Kove but buying everything else in their lives like electronics, clothing, etc is perfectly OK though. Really puzzles me. Maybe they'll push the other manufacturers to do better?
@@Chase_N Exactly.
42 years on road, 8 years off road as a teen. Quite a time spent riding motocross and enduro on a vintage 1974 Yamaha DT400, stripped for off road and hotted up. I've ridden bikes mostly without ABS and TCS, I use to do a lot of dirt road riding on road bikes, before we had adventure bikes. I currently have a 1988 Lowrider, hotted up and with a sidecar at present, had it for 35 years; and a 2022 Pan America Special. I think we are spoilt with modern bikes. I have taken my Pan Am on trails, it is capable but too heavy, I use it as a sports tourer, commuter and mountain road bike. If I really want to go off road, I think a 50hp Royal Enfield Bear, with some mods would be fine, it would run rings around what I use to ride off road, even if it is not the best.
Yeah, we're spoiled, but it's funny that people online always say they want less. The companies just keep adding tech though. I only bought my Pan Am because it was the most function per dollar I could get. If it hadn't been on sale for $15K, I'd likely have an Africa Twin, it was the next best option for a do all bike. The Tenere' 700 was a consideration, but no cruise control put it lower than the AT. A TransAlp with cruise control would be a best seller, but it would kill AT sales. The 1st company who decides to do it on light or middleweight ADVs at a reasonable price will reign supreme.
RE is a big consideration for a 2nd bike. I've been specifically looking at KLX300s, KLRs, Sportsters, REs, and used smaller models from the other Japanese brands too. The new Bear in the minty green and white special edition really appeals to me. If RE were to ever toss cruise control on the Bear or the 450 Himalayan, it'll be over for a bunch of companies who make light to middleweight ADVs.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
You make some very valid points. I totally agree with you on making ease of basic maintenance, like filter changes which you have to do more often if you live in a dusty environment or spend a lot of time off tarmac. Cruise control should be standard on bikes capable of long interstate runs at high speeds. If horsepower doesn't affect fuel mileage significantly, I don't mind having over 100 ponies and my ADV is really good on fuel. I prefer the size and height of the large bikes because I am tall and large. The smaller ADV's under 1 liter were not as comfortable. I really appreciate shaft drive over chain, but I daily ride my bike and use it for everything. Unfortunately H-D and KTM have dug themselves into a hole and outside of a bailout and complete change of upper management will not survive. It is sad, but you ultimately reap what you sow.
I think middleweight ADVs are a sweet spot for most people, the Tenere' 700 being just right sized for just about everyone, myself included (admittedly it's on the taller side but it does have lowering kits available for shorter people). It's likely the simplest, middleweight, but even the updated 2025 will be missing cruise control. Of course, they'd rather sell you the Super Tenere', so no cruise control or shaft drive on the 700. The problem is, I looked for a Super and couldn't find one within 1000 miles of me when I bought my Pan Am. They just don't make enough Super Ts.
There's only one new Super T in 1K miles of me.
A sub 500 lb 975 Pan Am minus all the electronics except simple ABS, TC, and Cruise Control, with a shaft drive, auto adjusted hydraulic valves, and an easily removable air filter done for around $15K would destroy the competition. But sadly, I fear H-D only cares about top dollar wallet drainers and "premiumness".
H-D is only slightly better off than KTM, and that honestly could be due to the old joke about them being a clothing company who just happens to sell bikes. Hopefully both pull through, I hate to see any company fail. Bloated management I could care less about, I hate to see the employees who do all the actual work suffer due to that bloated management's bad decisions.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
I need a small, lightweight dual sport that can do like 70 on the highway and most importantly has like a 200 mile range. I have to travel far to get to the good stuff. Again, small.
That's how it is for me too, a 1.5-2 hour trip to any large city or to visit friends and family. I love the Pan Am but it's a bit much to be honest. You start factoring everything in and a bike in the 400cc-900cc range, light, freeway capable, with few electronics (a 12 axis IMU and radar are not needed nor have they been asked for) like basic ABS and cruise control with easy minimal maintenance is about all most people seem to want.
Instead, we get more expensive and complicated bikes and then manufacturers scratch their heads as to why 2023 models are still sitting on showroom floors in December of 2024.
Maybe Kawasaki with that teaser 500 ADV at EICMA will be a winner? Or maybe someone else is releasing something next year we've yet to hear about that'll fill those needs/wants?
Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
KLX 300 maybe? If you aren't going off road, Triumph Speed 400 (only $5K)
I can't like this video enough. For me the perfect adventure bike has at least 100hp, cruise control, heated grips, good suspension and seats. It doesn't need all the fancy electronic bells and whistles that can break. The suspension if good, once you set the preload and damping you seldom touch it again unless there is a major change like packing for a long trip vs running around locally. As long as it is easy to access I would rather it not have electronics. Air filter access and general servicing should be simple like you said. A guy shouldn't have to take half the bike apart to change a filter or check valves. If you think changing the air filter is bad on the PanAm you should see what it is like on a Goldwing. The only electronic thing I really enjoyed on bikes was Apple carplay as it is so integrated. I can easily live without it as I can just link my phone to my helmet . So stuff like that being nice isn't needed. The phone/nav/music set up on the Pan Am sucks to put it bluntly. Easier not to use it at all and use your phone linked to the helmet or even add a gps and just use you phone for music etc. I had shaft drive on my Super Tenere and it was great, zero issues the whole time I owned it. With that said it doesn't kill be to care for a chain but shaft is much better if you do long trips. The Super Tenere I owned was a super trouble free bike that I took several nice long trips up to 5,000 miles on. It's downside was the access to the head for valves and it didn't like high cross winds. Also the stock suspension was way too soft on it.
I'm glad you enjoyed the video!
The Super Tenere' was a bike I wanted to look at, I was never able to find one for sale around me though. Shaft drive is the way to go, and Yamaha is all about building things that last. I can stand the chain drive though, at least maintenance is fairly straightforward and relatively easy.
I've never had music on a bike so it's not something I miss but some people are into it, the Pan Am is kind of terrible when it comes to connectivity. I ended up just using my cell on the bars with a cheap mount but there are plenty of standalone GPS units that'll work too.
Now, let's hope a manufacturer listens to any of it and decides they'd like more of our business. Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
@@Chase_N I tagged you on my page with a couple pics of it.
@@Doug_Morgan Very Nice!
Love my PAS but I think you're right in that if they'd offered a smaller version of that engine at a relatively lower price they would have moved more units. Talking in the ~$12-15k range where many would feel more comfortable pulling the trigger - esp if it's going to be their 'other' or secondary bike - or maybe their first HD? Bikes in the $20k+ ranges are a different breed of buyer and if they want to make hay in the adventure segment, and sell to a younger segment of buyers - they need to find ways to bring those price points down. My .02 - peace!
I love my PAS too, but I've learned something a little lighter, smaller, with less Hp/Tq, and less gizmos would fill my needs just as well.
$20K is steep when you have no other option in the lineup. If H-D downsized the Pan Am I'd be on board with it for sure. The profit margins are lower, but the potential for higher sales would make up for it. There was talk of a 975 Pan Am, but who knows if it's still in the cards. I hope it is, that it's 490 lbs or less, has cruise control, costs $15K or less, and has minimal electronics.
Too bad about KTM, the 2025 390 ADV R sure is interesting. Maybe they'll pull out a miracle?
Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
And by "buyers" I mean me , a single RUclipsr with a disproportionately loud voice, even though I will only buy a couple bikes
But I don't have a disproportionately loud voice, do I? At least if we're talking subscribers... I am a loud person IRL I guess. And hey, I've bought 7 bikes in 13 years, that's way more than a couple!
lol, stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
The Pan Am was my second choice as I like the shaft drive on my Tiger GT Explorer 1200. I totally agree the valve adjustment is a money grab like the ECM programs. I don't believe the electronics add much weight but the features are nice. I had a Victory Judge before and loved it for its simplicity and reliability.
I feel like a lot of the maintenance stuff is a money grab. Make maintenance just enough of a hassle that the customer will either neglect it or opt for the dealer to do it.
Shaft drive is uber nice, I wish the PA came with one. A chain is reliable enough and easy to clean and lube for maintenance, I'd previously looked at the Africa Twin so I was prepped for doing chain maintenance.
Victory was great, it got a raw deal because Polaris saw the Indian brand name they acquired as more profitable. It was, but leaving behind all those early adopters that gave Polaris a shot (and the chance to build bikes at all) just seemed really wrong to a lot of people, including me. The Judge was a fav, the Octane and High Ball too. Everything they made looked fast sitting still.
Stay safe out there on that Tiger GT and thank you for watching!
Probably the Moto Guzzi V85Tt would fit the bill..shaft drive..near 100 hp..valve adjustment easy to do if needed..onlt problem..is the lack of dealers in the US..Ride Safe😊
Oh, I do love the Guzzis, and the valve clearance adjustments (even though they should be a relic of a bygone era) are easily accessible, I did consider it at one point. But like you said, finding a dealer here in 'merica is near impossible.
There are only 85 total in the USA, but hey, there's one just over 100 miles away from me. The V85TT is very nice, the new Stelvio too, especially in that Duecento Tributo red, white, and blue livery. The V85TT was one I considered, but H-D just made me a better offer for a Pan Am at the time. I have a while to think about it, my Pan Am is covered for another 4.5 years on warranty. I'm sure someone will scratch that itch at some point, possibly even H-D.
Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
@Chase_N absolutely agree on all points!!..we will see what happens with HD..take care 😁
How about a CFMOTO 450MT ? No cruise control however, since it has a cable throttle. Also, quite cheap. Mine has 5000km, loving the bike. ❤
Oh, CFMoto has been very impressive lately, that's why I included their logo in the thumbnail. The updated Ibex/MT 800 is coming down the pipe too, they may have something there depending on the weight it comes in at.
By all accounts the Ibex/MT 450 is a great bike too but it is sans cruise control but does have a 18K mile valve check/adjustment interval so I'd get more than a year before having to tear into it.
I didn't forget them, it's just I haven't seen any shipped to my local dealer (funny, I have a CFMoto dealer 25 miles away but the closest Aprilia dealer is over 100 from me). I'm waiting for the dealer to get a tester in. They said Oct but it 450 still hasn't shipped. I even like the way they look.
There's also mumbling/rumbling CFMoto could be in the running to take over KTM. Who knows at this point, but it could change things overnight.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out the on that 450!
Yamaha has had 26,000 mile valve adjustment on their engines for years now.
Oh, I know, they were in the running when I looked at bikes. I'd have went for a Tenere 700 if they had only tossed cruise control on it. The 2025 model doesn't have it either, but it does have an electronic throttle now, so it's possible to add it. Maybe for 2026?
All I know is whoever does it 1st will have the most coveted middleweight ADV bike on the market. Honda could do it on the TransAlp or Suzuki on their V-Strom 800 and get a big win.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
What do real adventure riders want? How about under 400 lbs., 30 to 60 hp, 33" or lower seat height, 17 or 18" rear tire and 21" front tire, 8" - 9" ground clearance, 6 speeds, 6" - 8" wheel travel front and back, gets 60+ mpg and has a minimum 4 gallon capacity fuel tank, easy access air and oil filters, LED lighting, heated grips, a comfortable seat, some wind protection, aluminum hand guards, meaningful skid plate, high exit exhaust, rear rack, and other than EFI and electronic ignition, NO other electronics.
Every year Adventure bikes get more and more electronics. Not only is that just more to go wrong in the backcountry but it adds weight and prevents the owner from doing any type of fix when it does break. I've been to various Rallys and talked to a lot of riders and found that around 90% of owners never take their GS BMW offroad. Why? The answer I got was that it is too hard to clean. Most riders with adventure bikes use them as very comfortable touring rigs and like the look but have no intentions of riding offroad. The adventure should not be trying to keep the bike upright and on the wheels.
That's pretty much where I'm at. I think ABS and TC is added due to regulations/laws in many countries so it could be unavoidable. They could just use the simplest versions (I think I said that in the video) of both though if they have to be on there by law. What they could drop are the 6/12 axis IMUs, radar, and anything that's not simple.
lol, I took my Pan Am out when my gravel road was a mud pit the 1st week of December; it was a weekend, 45*F and sunny, I had to ride. A hose, some Meguires, and time was all it took to clean. But you're right, most ADV riders I've met freak when they get their bike dirty. It's the same with a lot of bagger guys though too.
Me, every time I leave on my gravel road it's a dust or mud bath so cleaning is just a fact of life. Oh, and the bugs, they likely see me as a genocidal maniac and the Pan Am as my WMD at this point.
Stay safe out there and thank you for watching
I want an ADV with a lower seat height
I think that'd make a lot of people happy! Most ADVs have lowering kits available along with 1 inch lower seats. You can get a Pan Am down to around a 30 inch seat height (my old Fat Bob was around that height), but there are other ADVs that have the same options available too!
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there!
I just discovered the V-Strom 250. Apparently the focus groups said no.
The focus groups should all be fired.
And the ADV 350 by Honda. Won't happen here it seems.
The GB 350 is coming ( not here ) and all the Moar Powah Morons online want a GB 500.
Everyone just needs to STFU if they can't say something positive about a motorcycle we could get but don't get.
The Ibex 450 looks great and I hope they sell a ton but whoa boy the pre-order prices!
Looks like I'm going have to transition to bikes from big scooters on a TU250X or an EX500.
DL650, KLR650 once I get my shifting down - those are the most available and affordable bikes.
We need more small ADVs for our horrible city streets. UK/Euro bikes should be automatically allowed for import on the grey market from new. Maybe Elon can help with that?
American market scooters just get destroyed along with your body.
Small bikes are always fun bikes, a lighter bike with just enough Hp/Tq will always be in demand. The Ibex/MT 450 looks fantastic and every test video I've seen has people really excited about them. I included CFMoto's logo in the thumbnail because it seems they're really trying to give people what they want. Chinese made or not, CFMoto is really giving the other manufacturers a run for their money.
City streets are getting bad in the last few years, and I wonder if it's one of the reasons dual sports and ADVs are so in demand? Small capacity DSs like KLX300s are in demand in the city (unusual because when I was a kid it was a bike people in the country bought) but gas prices may also be playing a role in that.
Have hope, the economy, fuel prices, and a myriad of other factors may bring small capacity bikes back to the forefront. Sadly, it may end up because these companies will find it's all they're able to sell to stay afloat.
Thank you for watching and stay safe out there on those lightweight, fuel sipping, little zippers!
harley pan america is a 270kg joke
Sir, I'll have you know it's a hilarious 250kgs🧐
Stay safe out there and thank you for watching!
ruclips.net/video/gPXAA1hFZNY/видео.htmlsi=Cm_Q6GcritfJbCcR
Oh man, this was one of the videos that made me look for one. I might've had one except I think the closest one was more than 1K miles away at that point.