It seems like half the comments are "You don't know anything about Judo! 😡" and the other half are "Yeah, I did Judo for years and it definitely sucks. 😮💨" Fight! Fight! Fight!
You found some really niche examples to prove your point. Even the street portion is cringe - I’ve seen people get KOed on mats, it can happen. You don’t understand that in high level judo you NEED more rotation which often means rotating your head leading to you ending up in bottom. Yet Travis stevens and other even amateur judoka can modify their throws to end up on top position . I’ve done it in BJJ fairly easily. Your video is almost like someone assuming every BJJ player pulls guard. Do you think we are going to follow Olympic rules outside of a club? And yeah I would wager you would get hip tossed by judo players even if you think you know how to fight tbh. Literally I’ve hit hip tosses on BJJ players easily. Not my go to but to make it sound like it works only on ppl who suck is silly. Again it’s basically like when ppl assume a BJJ guy is gonna pull guard and NEVER strike with his opponent or only seek to sweep off his back. This is the first time I’ve heard someone say judo is bad for self defense…you’re assuming a lot here buddy and it comes across as arrogant as hell
i love watching judo... but let me tell you in real life you pull that sht out and im taking you to the ground with me and then you going to go to sleep.
My biggest criticism of wrestling is this: it’s largely unavailable for adults. If you’re lucky enough to have wrestling classes at your gym, that’s fantastic, but outside that is pretty much only available to scholastic athletes.
I got to say that judo and BJJ have been much better than wrestling in the marketing department however in the western world wrestling does not care about marketing or promoting itself to hobbyists and nor has it had much of a reason to have to care about marketing itself and catering to hobbyists.As long as wrestling remains present in the scholastic system it doesn't have to worry about marketing or going anywhere.
@@GaryNac I still think its kinda interesting that such purists as the wrestlers are they dont back down from going into other combat sports historically. Judo is a absurdly big sport but they going into other styles as high level Judokas is almost unheard of.
@@CoffeeManiaTV exists but only in a self defense kata for 4th degree blackbelts, some schools teach it, but they are not really good, because we can't use it in sparring, it is at most a theoric exercise
@@RaveyDavey Nah, "Judo chop" was used a lot back in the 1970's, probably because people were far less knowledgeable about Asian martial arts. iirc, the term was used in one of James Coburn's Flint movies in the late 60's.
@@gudea5207 The only problem Judo has a a martial art is the recent-ish ban in leg takedowns. Sambo is seen as a really strong base in MMA but like 10 years ago the primary difference between the two sports is that Judo has chokes and Sambo has leglocks. So really, every career Sambist also more likely happens to be a career Judoka as Judo is the sport that gives money in those countries so atheltes are encouraged to crosstrain.
@@Nobody-kp5nc Nah, that one kinda went a bit too far on the Newaza focus and kinda lost all focus on takedowns. Russian-flavored Judo, Sambo, is more accurate to the "art" than the brazilian one.
Judo guy here, it depends where you train. We always train to throw and finish with a submission because you're never guaranteed the point. Half our class time is newaza so we're quite good with transitioning to ground work. Also, top 5 submissions in MMA are all judo techniques.
Exactly! People hate on judo because it's real... judo is jiu-jitsu and it's been proven on the battle field. Judo is a a martial art and a sport and People fail to understand that.
I am a Brown Belt in BJJ and a very competitive Judo clubbed opened up in my gym. I watch them train sometimes and they are some tough dudes. I wanted to join (I’m closing in on 50) and didn’t think my body could handle it but I saw a lot of nice transitions
Exactly it varies club to club person to person. I’ve seen Judo blue belts rag doll and pin BJJ black belts. This guy should really try Judo or talk with someone like Shintaro. Seems like his entire knowledge base came from r/martialarts comments
I am a judo black belt and think you are mostly right, a little blunt, but right. Judo is not the competition ruleset but i can't deny the negative influence of the ruleset, my teacher (or sensei as we like to call it) taught me the importance of a good standing to ground transition, but if you want to win in the IJF ruleset you almost can't do it right. Now what am i doing to be a better judoka? i am cross training with bjj, bjj have what judo lost, judo have what bjj lost, maybe is not the optimal way, but in my country, wrestling is almost nonexistent, and i started at judo so that's my path of learning, and always is there the why i do what i do, i am not seeking an mma career and love the judo and Japanese martial arts culture. I love your channel and i think you are a smart guy with a clever opinion. (English is not my native language, i hope i was able to express my opinions correctly)
The thing about BJJ having what Judo lost and Judo having what BJJ lost was brilliant. Couldn't agree more and it sounds like you are making the most of your situation. I am a MMA guy who loves karate and does a lot of extra flexibility training, karate kicking drills, and just using whatever concepts I can add to my game bc karate has never really been big around my area. I try not to rely on "tricks" too much but for example being able to pop your lead round kick out like a jab is a different look for a lot of ppl.
I avoided judo because I met a girl, ex national champion, that at 18 was already on a wheelchair because of the ijf rules. Her favorite technique was a drop seoi nage and she blew out both knees. I shat myself after talking with her, in older judo drop seoi nage weren't that popular or important
@@giorgiociaravolol1998 I did drop seoi nage sometimes. I think maybe she jump to her knees. I've seen some judokas do that and it's obviously not so good for your knees. However, if you do it right I don't think it's a dangerous throw.
@@giorgiociaravolol1998 is really difficult to break your knees doing drop seoi, unless you jump to gain momentum, but that is irresponsable at best, in that case you jump to fall with all your weight and some of your opponent weight over the knees. It is true that you can have injuries for overusing some risky techniques, but i think that is true for any sport. Nevertheless, i can't say anything concrete without knowing the exact situation, and it is always sad when that happens. In any case i don't believe it was a problem with the IJF rules.
i feel you. i have a black belt in both Judo and BJJ, but i've also worked in bars for 20+ years. I've managed to get into and out of more altercations with genuinely aggressive persons than most people ever will. is judo perfect absolutely not. but is it as bad as made out here. no not at all. the ability to control the takedown is a big thing dropping someone on their back or side while still being able to disengage is a huge plus to judo vs. wrestling. wrestlers will absolutely take you down. but they are down with you. just my educated opinion though. but i absolutely agree with the analysis of what judo has lost and what BJJ in my opinion never had. train your standup like judo but use grips closer to wrestling, use the submissions from BJJ but keep your top game closer to wrestling and judo. it will take you far
Fedor has done judo since he was 11 years old tho. Yes he did Sambo also, because both martial arts are basically the same, but that doesn't discredit all his Judo training. You don't get to the top of a country in Judo, specially one as competitive in the sport as Russia without a LOT of training in that martial art. The dude is NOT an olympian only because he lost to the dude who would go on to represent Russia in the olympics (just google Alexander Mikhaylin and Tamerlan Tmenov to see the kind of competition Fedor faced). That's when he trasitioned into MMA. And don't mentiom Combat Sambo, Combat Sambo became a thing around the time where Fedor entered MMA.
So if he were a pure Judo guy he'd still have gaps in his skills due to the fact that he was training for the Olympics and would never learn stuff that wins in an MMA ruleset.
All good points here. However, i will contend the 4th degree "black belt" losing to the white belt bjj player; that's an exception, i can assure you, as someone who trains both
Not an exception but the quality of ne waza is very inconsistent. I have rolled in ne waza only rounds with perfectly good black belts that are excellent in tachi waza and some of them feel like one stripe white belts.
@@phobowlyou would if they competed in Judo 🤷♂️ I've seen high level BJJ practicioners get foot sweeped, hip tossed and even fireman's carried by Judo yellow and orange belts.
@@jc-kj8yc @phobowl yeah i've seen both. White belts tap Judo black belts easily in newaza or BJJ, likewise low grade Judoka beat BJJ black in Judo rules - just a regular trip for the ippon. What amused me in both scenarios is neither losing player had any fight IQ. The judoka made no effort to stay out of basic closed guard traps and was doing dumb shit like trying to choke them in their guard. Likewise the BJJ guy didn't have a gripping strategy and should have used sacrifice throws.
Okay, my eyebrows raised when I saw the title of the video and then after watching it realize it's basically when Judo is taken as a sport and not combined with any other sort of art. On that, I'll definitely agree. The following relates my own personal experiences and may not represent the wider audience as a whole. I originally started studying Karate, BJJ, and Muay Thai back in 2001. Over the years I have studied or dabbled in close to a dozen different martial arts and have a fairly wide background but without necessarily gaining any expertise in any single art. I have previously worked as a Reserve Police Officer in the Midwest and a tactical security team supervisor on the Las Vegas Strip. I won't be the guy that claims to have been in dozens of streetfights, but I have on occasion been in physical altercations. A couple of years ago I started doing some critical thinking about those actual, real life encounters I've been in and came to the realization that not once have I ever punched, kicked, choked, or submitted anyone. Not that there's *never* a time to punch, kick, or submit someone, I just never have. I've never used ANY of the Karate, BJJ, Muay Thai, or most of the martial arts I've studied. What I *have* used in real life encounters is wrestling, Judo, and Hapkido (wrist and joint locks for pain compliance). I've never used a single or double leg takedown to put someone on the ground, however I *have* used judo style hip throws (despite the suspect not wearing a gi, jacket, or other analogue). I have also used Hapkido style arm bars to put people on the ground. This has been my own personal experience, and largely why I've shifted away from studying BJJ or Muay Thai. I've simply never used them. I thought about why this is and concluded that it has to do with rule set and win condition. In any situation, there's a rule set and a win condition. The moves which are most effective at accomplishing the win condition are going to rise to the top. In MMA, with their win condition (usually KO or submission) and rule set (varies somewhat based on venue) strike based arts and BJJ/wrestling style grappling are the most effective. Hence why most winners have those backgrounds. In a "streetfight" where there are "no rules" (there are, it's called the law, learn it). Those styles often are the most effective again. However in a *self defense* situation there's a different rule set and win condition. The bad guy has the win condition of taking your stuff or hurting you without getting caught. The victim has the win condition of getting away safely without any injury or loss of property. In that case with different win conditions different moves will rise to the top (hint: if you're the victim your best bet is firearms training). For law enforcement/security, the bad guy has the win condition of getting away and generally doesn't have to or try to comply with laws regarding use of force. LEO/Security has the win condition of getting the bad guy in cuffs with as minimal injury to the suspect as possible and has to comply with law. Generally speaking, MMA *isn't* a good first option for that (if I'm getting my butt kicked then it's a different story, that's the second option and I'm more than happy to fall back on it if necessary). For me, wrestling, Judo, and Hapkido have been the arts that I've found most effective at accomplishing my win condition reliably.
Very interesting take especially the emphasis on win condition which makes sense. My two pence, in a self defence situation, where the win condition you described is to get away safely without injury or loss of property, and granted victim doesn’t/cannot have firearm training, is to train boxing and either judo/wrestling (granted a person is able to do two sports at one time, and get decent at each)
This is maybe the most thoughtful and intelligent comment on martial arts training and modern American violence I’ve seen on the internet. The concept of “win condition” is fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
I agree with most of it. The Olympic ruleset is garbage and it heavily influences the way Judo is practiced in most gyms. A few points of disagreement: 1. Knowing how to deal with other people grabbing your clothing is just as important as using clothing offensively. A competitive Judo player has the instincts to immediately block, break, and nullify grips on clothing and it's one of very few sports where this skillset is trained. 2. You don't need a winter jacket to throw or choke someone, nor does it have to be unzipped. A t-shirt, dress shirt, or sweater will suffice for a throw or choke. The gi is used in training so that people don't have to buy 10,000 t-shirts. 3. Clothing changes the grappling game. The reason Japanese Judo players never invested much time in double legs and single legs, for example, is because grip fighting and gi grips massively diminish the effectiveness of those attacks. The proof of this is that in sport Sambo today, where leg attacks are still legal and there are plenty of skilled wrestlers competing, leg attacks still don't dominate the highest-scoring techniques. Foot sweeps, arm throws, and hip throws are well-represented among high-scoring techniques because they are effective techniques when people are wearing clothing. If you live in a beach town where everyone in wearing swimwear all day, fair enough. Folkstyle wrestling will be more realistic. If you live where most of the people in the world live, getting some experience grappling with clothing is a good idea.
youre making such valid points! 1) i have seen wrestlers getting entangled in gi grips not knowing how to break free of of them 2) absolutely - i also found his point on "collar grabs" on an unzipped jacket a bit cheap. its not about collars, i think he said this due to lack of experience. Although id say a winterjacket works better than a t shirt ;-) 3) This is such a good point. One could add that the judo double legs arent as technical as the wrestlers DL (penetrating, driving, cutting the corner , engles etc) even when leg grabbing is allowed. alot of guys in my dojo were deep into my legs and wouldnt finish, because they didnt understand the technique well enough. I would like Judo Guys to learn a basic double leg "module" with 3-4 options on how to deal with a sprawl , cutting corners, climb up to clinch etc. The "threat" of a double leg changes the dynamic and even IF one stuffes your double leg with stiff arming etc. it creates opportunities, sometimes leading to him having "emergency grips" giving you the advantage. 4) I would like to add the magic of foot sweeps. an important part of judo is IMO that its not just wrestling with a gi. it is "maximum efficiency minimum effort" based. and it is possible to throw and take down much bigger opponents with little effort (IF done correctly) i am not sure if wrestling offers that. He even said in the video - that some guys are to big for him to double leg
"You don't need a winter jacket to throw or choke someone, nor does it have to be unzipped. A t-shirt, dress shirt, or sweater will suffice for a throw or choke." No it won't, unless your shirts and tshirts are made of adamantium. Most tshirts tear before they could be used offensively. There's a reason gis are as thick as they are. "Clothing changes the grappling game. The reason Japanese Judo players never invested much time in double legs and single legs, for example, is because grip fighting and gi grips massively diminish the effectiveness of those attacks." It's 100% the other way around. Generally speaking tangling is gonna be a much smaller issue the more clothing you add, and restriction of your own movement and getting a grip on the opponent will be a far bigger issue. As such grabbing a large body part, like a double leg, will be much easier than grabbing a shirt collar or whatnot. Why on EARTH do you think most 1:1 street fights go to the ground, and people don't engage in grip fighting? Because unless you have hydraulic clamps for hands, you're not going to be able to hold onto someone's wrist or lapel; but tackling someone is always going to be an option. Grapping their leg, or getting an underhook is always going to work. "The proof of this is that in sport Sambo today, where leg attacks are still legal and there are plenty of skilled wrestlers competing, leg attacks still don't dominate the highest-scoring techniques." You're making the mistake of attributing effectiveness to certain techniques because they work in ANOTHER sanitized, sporterized environment for points, dressed in uniforms designed for throws, as opposed to evaluating those techniques in a neutral environment with real stakes. " Foot sweeps, arm throws, and hip throws are well-represented among high-scoring techniques because they are effective" You said it yourself. "HIGH SCORING". They are represented because you get points for it. Not because they work. And can you stop equating gis with "clothing"? Gis have MASSIVE amounts of drag, especially due to the amount of sweat that build up. Even the most basic jacket has a lining made of either some type of organic or synthetic fur, some fine polymer fabric, or felt. None of which have the drag of pure heavy cotton. Not to mention you put on a tshirt, then a sweater, than a coat. Those clothing items are also rarely secured around the waist. You can try throwing someone by their sweater, and you might just end up pulling it off of their body. It's called a "pullover" for a reason.
@@horvathbenedek3596 Search for a video called JUDO AS SELF DEFENCE IN STREET FIGHTS. You will see 10 people doing high-amplitude throws with t-shirts. watch?v=RI1UX9O3fq0
@@OldSchopenhauerDang, that one's also good! "You know why **insert martial art** doesn't work on the street? Because your mom already works that block!"
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12:26 Judo does teach you to follow them to the ground though, as a Judo practitioner (at least at my club), it's drilled into us to never let go of our opponent after throwing them so we can immediately follow with a holdown/armlock/stranglehold etc.
Most the problems with Judo pointed out in this video are a result of olympic Judo rule sets, olympic Judo is not all Judo. Go back even just a few years to back when leg grabs were still allowed and already it's much more viable. The problem is the rule sets, not the martial art itself.
@@theseeker7692 No he really doesn't talk about this in the video. This guy was only bringing up that one example, there are many others which is OPs point. Only a m0r0n would think Olympic rules are even Judo. That's like saying Olympic fencing is HEMA or actual fencing or how a sword fight looks. It isn't it doesn't even resemble a sword fight and in actual fact would for sure get you killed doing that even if you got the person. Oh btw most Judo throws aren't hip throws which was a sole focus on the video for some reason. OFC wrestling is better but wrestling is better than everything period. Wrestling is the best non weapons based MA there is and its always been that way. You see wrestling from the Ancient Greeks/Persians to Medieval Knights. Its always the best supplement.
Yeah. After you throw, if the person lands on their stomach, you can go to Newaza, which will continue until someone gets sub, pind, or progression stops. I don't know how he could have missed such a major rule.
Good critique of modern Judo and its rulesets. But not even close to a fair assessment of the art overall and its' applicability/history/track record as a fighting system.
Judo is class, and going by this guys stand up grappling footage he's throwing stones from a glass house. Russian wrestlers cross train judo for a reason, he wouldnt know this though cause hes no where near that level.He's just clickbaiting , clout and views
Been do bjj +10yrs just started judo love it.. watched my bjj 3dgree 300lb instructor get effortlessly repeatedly thrown by a 175lb brown belt judoka ... if he didn't know how to take a fall and it was concrete he wouldn't get up...
I do Judo. You did your research well, forgot a couple of things though. 1. Very few Judokas give a shit about MMA, myself included, so I'm not arguing with your points there. 2. I don't know if you've ever been in a street fight, but strength and stamina come before technique and Judokas are in general very strong, very explosive and have the grip strength of a chimp (thanks to the Gi). Obviously wrestlers are as well. And when it comes to techniques, there are sooo many that do not require a Gi and some of them are even useful against double/single leg takedowns. Just to list a few off the top of my head. - Koshi Guruma, - Kosoto Gari, - Osoto Gari, - Ura Nage, - Tani Otoshi, - Sumi Gaeshi, - Soto Makikkomi, - Tai Otoshi, - Sasae, - Hadaka Jime, - Juji Gatame There are more. I get that you wanted to ruffle some feathers, but to think that a Judoka would do pure, rule-compliant Judo in a street fight is a bit idiotic.
I think the idea is "if they could, they would" when it comes to what is allowed in the limited ruleset. Like the amount of Judoka who turtle and *BOTH* competitors look at the ref to subtly say: "You gonna stand us up or what?" Judo (at least Kadokan Judo does) teaches how to attack a tight turtle and get turnovers to continue on the mat, yet they don't even bother in competition to even try? So it is VERY fair to say that Judoka that are only taught rule compliant Judo are only going to do rule compliant Judo. Side note: Some of the throws you mention to "counter a double/single leg takedown" are very strange picks. Some of them can work, like the sacrifice throws, but osoto-gari? What? That is beyond silly. To get osoto from a single leg attempt requires that their single leg attempt was so unbearably bad (they loosely have your leg and are not driving forward to take you down) that you are able to get the reap necessary to accomplish osoto gari. Tai Otoshi is a strange pick as well for the same reasons. Uchi-mata, uki goshi, hane-goshi, harai goshi, even in no Gi are way better picks since they are playing under the sane and logical idea that Uke's momentum is going towards you (because they are *trying* to take you down) and that they are actively picking up your leg making it tough/impossible to put down your leg for tai otoshi/reach your leg to reap for Osoto-gari. But even then that is a tough sell because if they are moving you around and not letting you be stable then the attempt becomes very hard/impossible.
@@AGuy-s5v Sorry, I was just listing generally street-useful stuff, the stuff I would probably rely on. When it comes to leg takedowns, I guess only Sumi Gaeshi would make sense of the ones I listed.
@@tugbandi I didn't even mention that you stated a back choke (hadaka Jime) and a joint lock (Juji Gatame) as ways to counter a single leg takedown. Which is even more strange, imho. Like.. Juji doesn't make much sense in the case of a double leg takedown, single leg is more plausible, but even still. And then Hadaka Jime (rear strangle) requires you to be on Uke's back, not sqaure with Uke as he grabs your leg and takes you down. Are you doing alright? Or perhaps you're a kyu grade below san-ni-ii kyu?
I think point 2 is pretty pointless, pretty much any one who works out and does most martial arts will be strong. This point could be made about anyone practicing any grappling art especially. If the point is that its better to train judo than to not train at all, then this mentioned in the video, he stated it could work on a street fight and that if you are fighting anyone untrained then you will likely win.
Honestly an interesting perspective, i do think that when ranked as a complete fighting art its lacking, its appeal to me is kinda like hema, putting into practice these old ways of using a weapon (like someones jacket) in a fight. But honestly as a judoka i do have to say, the point about an ippon not necessarily ending the fight is really fair, even when i get hurt in judo i usually dont start to really feel it until the adrenaline’s gone down
You said some things that are incorrect. -Judo does not need a jacket. Plenty of judo throws are done in no gi, MMA and submission matches. -Judos system does do singles or doubles, leg grabs are part of the curriculum it’s just not part of the sport element. - Judo does not only have arm locks they have chokes and guard play and transitions, it’s again just less a focus in competition. -you do not inherently land in bad positions. Just like a boxer can over extend a punch or drop his gaurd, Muy Thai guy miss timed a kick and get swept, a wrestler can scramble and end up in a bad position, BJJ guy go for a bad submission and get reversed… this doesn’t mean that’s the standard it just happens. - just like there are videos of judo guys losing to BJJ and wrestling there are videos of the opposite as well. Measuring Judos success as an art through how well it does in MMA is narrow sighted. It is, a takedown art, doesn’t advertise itself as the most elite finishing art. Judos fight concept came from the battlefield, you throw some one down to the ground, with a potential fight ending throw, and then the samurai would finish with a short sword. This historical aspect was preserved and what you see in Judo competitions is simply the sports application . The idea was not to be wrapped up or wrestle it to the ground spending unnecessary time there that could get you killed. This concept of not spending too much time on the ground is still understood in Military combatives. It also gives perspective for those who practice Judo. I wrestled done some jiu jitsu and Judo. It’s always mma or wrestling purist that feel this need to discredit Judo as if recognizing its legitimacy some how takes away from their art and that’s not the case. It’s got some amazing throws and probably the best system for learning foot sweeps. If you don’t care about those things and care to spend more time wrestling and submissions so be it. To each their own.
You’ve highlighted the problem. It’s a takedown art if it isn’t a finishing art in MMA how are you expected to incapacitate an assailant in a self defense scenario.
Another possible "downside" of judo is that people assume that everywhere that a fight will start there will be concrete ground, but that is not always the case, many fights end up in grass or sand or other soft ground places where the effectiveness of a thrown is basically nullified.
What you call judo's "no gi throws" don't actually come from judo, but from greco-roman wrestling. In fact, judo has next to nothing unique besides some clothes grips (as the concept of using the opponent's clothing existed way before judo), and some submissions, Kimura's holds in particular. Everything else was taken from other disciplines.
@@na-ky8ou I have no idea what your point is? Many styles if not all arts have overlap and borrow. It doesn’t mean a Judo guys style is now Greco because he took his gi off. Or that his knowledge is some how void because the root art of the move exist in other proficiencies? That would be like saying a Muy thai guys strikes couldn’t be Muy Thai as boxing is older than Muy Thai…
Because not everything that isn't effective in MMA isn't automatic ineffective in a street fight because of it. You're assuming the person you're fighting on the street is skilled enough in the sport of MMA to neutralize a judokas takedown. In all reality that probably isn't the case
So, a note about NAIA. NAIA is pretty close to D 3 but when it comes to wrestling compared to sports like football and basketball the skill gap between athletes is actually smaller between the divisions. I would argue D 2 is more comparable for wrestling because you can get athletic scholarships in NAIA giving them a better pool of talent. In fact a D1 multi-time champion was beat by an NAIA champion not too long ago a few years back. The major difference is how often the divisions meet and how many resources are available to keep athletes training year round.
I always laugh when this comes up because Nicky Rod the best example of wrestling working in ADCC/ BJJ was D3 and far surpassed much "better" wrestlers.
High risk, unrealistic attacks are common in combat sports.TKD’s head kicks come immediately to mind. Even if the kick had no power and the assailant falls down after, he gets the points. The infamous BJJ butt scooting is defensive, but equally dumb. Is your complaint about the sport and its rules? Or that it’s not a real fight? Do you need to see someone slash someone with a broken bottle or bash their head on pavement to be satisfied? It’s a sport. It’s all just aggressive tag. At the end of the day there are only really 3 martial arts: striking, wrestling and weapons, including firearms. The rest is just style and teaching methods.
@@AirLancer I get that. But again, they all have rule sets that serve to 1) make them more athletic (more points for low percentage techniques), 2) make them safer (no eye gouging, biting, etc. and 3) differentiate them from other similar sports. Judo is focused on standing take downs to the exclusion of striking and ground wrestling. BJJ is focused on ground wrestling to the exclusion of standing takedowns and striking. Collegiate freestyle wrestling has no striking and no gi. TKD has blah blah blah. Judo is just wrestling with a particular rule set. You don’t have to like it or do it. If it’s bullshido, its reverence will fade with time, just as lots of martial arts did with the advent of MMA and UFC. At the same time, I didn’t have to watch this video or make a comment. 😉
The complaint is how far removed from reality the rules are as a simulation of combat. There are certainly equivalent complaints in all martial arts but for all its hype Judo is found wanting.
@@michakoguciuk497 I doubt the IJF are trying to do that. What people are trying to do is differentiate their style of martial art from other styles, when at their hearts all that is different is teaching methods, country of origin, and the individual. Take karate and kung fu. Many of those styles or schools have had reciprocal influence on each other. At the end of the day, a side kick is a side kick. So different competition rules and training methods are promoted. I know of several Judo and Suai Jiao guys who compete in Bokh or Mongolian wrestling, which has no weight classes and is a form of jacket wrestling. And so on. If the Olympics were more of an Open style, we would still find people training for competition versus civilian defense. 🤷♂️
@@michakoguciuk497 I hear that. But I don’t think any martial artist is confused about the difference between sport rules and no rules fighting. Hopefully, most of us will never have to experience that. These rule sets are about marketing as much as the other things I mentioned earlier. I understand the frustration though. We don’t want to feel like we are wasting our time or not being taught the “real” thing. But history shows that all of the styles that we are learning now have in many ways been altered in the past. In many ways that’s what Art is all about. And with the availability of information and schools, one can shop around until they find what they want to learn and even learn several arts and create their own personal style. 😊
I used to have the same mindset until my bjj coach forced me to train with judokas for a while… that humbled me down big time. Maybe you should try it out yourself instead of let say… just talking about it? 😅
Yeah, if you've never been thrown and pinned by an experienced Judoka you're in for a life changing experience. And all of the schools and Judo instructors I've met now all include no-gi, self-defense variations and sparring. The popularity of MMA and UFC has cross-pollinated a lot of influence into curriculum and training methodology in Judo and many other MA.
The point isn't that Judo is a bad martial art, it's that it's very limited beyond its own ruleset. Pure Judo doesn't transfer well to almost any other sport except BJJ because...uh...judo invented BJJ😅
If you had trained with karatekas they'd also have head kicked you 50 times in your first sparring class. You'll always get humbled when you are untrained.
One thing worth mentioning about "street fights" is just how many of them are either: A. Drunken bar fights. And/or B. Unofficial "honor duels", where someone feels insulted and wants to fight about it. In the former, yeah, everything works. In the latter, a lot of people don't like grapplers on the whole. They wanna do fisticuffs. Bystanders (usually one or both guys' "boys") who would have let the fight go on for punches will intervene and separate clinches and ground fights, because it's "less honorable." Maybe that's just my experience. But a lot of fights that don't involve multiple attackers or weapons are just about dudes who wanna puff their chest.
Great comment. Also, once the fight goes to the ground the spectators tend to lose interest. Sorry but grappling is not very entertaining if you don't know what you are watching. Watching two untrained fat rednecks grapple is sometimes comical but resembles an altercation between two drunk sea lions. Might as well break it up. Call it a draw and get back to drinking beer.
The reason that judoka tend to be under represented in MMA is because Judo has a separate track for high-level athletes, the Olympics. Within Judo, the Olympics is the goal, not UFC. So high levelled Udoka do not tend to cross train into MMA, they specialise into Judo for the Olympics.
There are plenty of former Olympians including gold medalists in the UFC from sports that are not Judo. These sports are also in no way feeders for budding mixed martial artists as they too desire for their own sports to succeed. We can quibble to the degree with which the IJF has praised MMA fighters with Judo backgrounds (the answer being not much) or the overlap of regions where both Judo and MMA at high level are popular but the fact is that judoka have mostly not succeeded at high levels in MMA excepting Ronda Rousey of course. Take Satoshi Ishii who is gold medalist olympian but has had middling success in second tier promotions. Plenty have tried and failed.
@ArmchairViolence I'm not a judoka, but I have talked with some. There seems to be a cultural element in Judo against MMA. I doubt it is even a majority even though they seem to have considerable cultural power, but there appears to be an elitist element who see MMA as antithetical to Judo. Instead, they favor the Olympics. (The Olympics are where combat sports go to die, in my opinion.) That would explain the lack of cross-training that would make Judo a more practical art.
Judo is an isolationist martial art, everything is done in the Japanese way no matter where you are in the world. If you have dedicated your life to the sport then you probably won’t cross train or compete in anything else, there are some exceptions but there is a much greater number of wrestlers that move into other areas of sport or entertainment ie football, movies, professional wrestling, mma. Gable Stevenson has been in wwe and is now moving into football. While high level judoka will most of the time stay completely isolated in Judo. Also I do understand the criticism of how certain throws will leave you in a poor position if the match were to continue after the throw but that’s not the sport a big throw is the ideal way to win in judo that’s just the ruleset. while in wrestling it’s about a second of hold time for a fall/pin that is ideal to win the match or you have to accumulate points while in contrast a pin in Judo is a 20 second hold to win the match that’s a way longer time to hold someone down than in wrestling and is not the easiest feat for grappling athlete. Please make fair comparisons you can critique and have opinions but be fair in doing so if you want to be taken seriously.
Ok, Wrestling is the GOAT without a doubt. But I can't defend the actual Jiu-jitsu scene with this epidemic of guard pulling imposed on the art by the IBJJF rule set.
You have 2 complete fighting systems: MMA and Combat Sambo. Everything else is a specialism of a subset of those. Wrestling is the GOAT of takedowns, no question. BJJ is the GOAT of submissions easily. The biggest problem with Judo is that it's not the GOAT of anything.
fedor did a ton of judo. he was kept out of the olympic team by tmenov who was a beast and took silver. insert the hand through the armpit until it emerges through the neck hole. form the grip there and you can hit turn throws on people in t shirts. on a zipped up jacket you just grip the armpit rather than the lapel. there's a lot of fail in this video but there's three right there.
I quote you from one of your other videos, which was golden: 'You don't win with one move, you win with an interconnected web of moves that work together.
Just like Niko style. Cuz Ohmas master said to him during his match, Niko told him that it would be pretty foolish not to follow up with another technique after performing his first technique. Point is, don’t stop after doing a counter, or an attack, or even a throw. Keep up the pressure and do your combos.
Its a problem I have with any shotokan karate instructor that teaches us self defence. If its not mannequin training or general bullshido, it'll be based off of point karate which nowadays is comparable to tag.
Which judo has. Lol. We are taught to constantly pursue the opponent, lose their balance and ultimately throw them. Which can take one or a series of steps.
"Always maintain the attitude of defeating the enemy with one strike." - Miyamoto Musashi [The Book of Five Rings] "Your directness is what will enable you to succeed." - Miyamoto Musashi [The Book of Five Rings] If the opponent is finished there's no need to continue, if he was not finished follow up with the next strike & finish him with that. When there are multiple opponents around, the other guys aren't gonna wait while you go 12345678 on one guy. The goal is to finish the opponent as quickly as possible, ideally with one decisive strike & get home safe. "One motion & he's gone" - Bruce Lee "There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare." - Sun Tzu [The Art of War]
@@jagger_claw Thank you for your insightful quotes from Miyamoto Musashi, Bruce Lee, and Sun Tzu. These masters indeed emphasize efficiency in combat. I will answer to each quote but before that I want to say finishing with one move while ideal it rarely happens. we have decades of fighting well documented. and what percentage of those fights ended with one move? 1.Musashis'“Ken No Sen” (attacking the initiative) suggests not just a physical readiness to strike, but a mental and strategic preparation that anticipates and nullifies the opponent’s actions as part of a larger plan, not just a single strike. 2.Bruce Lee’s idea of “Be Water” similarly supports adaptability and fluidity in techniques, implying a fighter must adjust and flow through a series of techniques based on the opponent’s actions. This is more than just delivering one motion; it's about connecting movements in response to the dynamics of the fight. 3.Prolonged war is very different from finishing in one move. prolonged engagements often drain resources and morale, suggesting a well-planned strategy that can include multiple maneuvers to ensure victory in any situation you may or may not end up. Sun Tzu: "In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity." This quote points to the need to use a complex array of strategies to seize opportunities in the chaos.
An effective martial art is one that you pressure test going at or near 100% intensity. That is why the grappling arts prepare you for actual combat much better than most striking arts where you just don’t train that way. Judo has the rule set that it does for safety and to differentiate from other grappling arts and is the most popular grappling art in the world for a reason. To say it’s not effective is just plain wrong. Sambo and BJJ are judo with a different emphasis. All are good arts worth learning.
I'll keep it short, can't be bothered to write a thesis on every claim made.... well not on mobile phone at least. 1. Very true about rules deficiency of Judo - a good throw is not enough in fighting competitions. Although most of the throws on the concrete WILL end the fight, in mma that's just a single part of the skills needed, still a very important one, and I'll come back to that later. 2. Saying that judokas aren't prepared for scrambling that comes after the throw is just an asumption made by watching too many judokas competing in bjj matches. My judo school wasn't elite by any means, but approx. the third of the time we did ne-waza. Would I suck against bjj guy in bjj match - of course I would! But so would everybody else too. BTW, at least we're willing to try ourselves in other grappling styles - how many bjj players have you seen entering a judo competition? 😅 3. Gi is a huge factor, of course - but lack of it is NOT a deciding one. Here's the inside info - we judokas always understood that, and have been cross-training in wrestling since the dawn of judo. We highly respect our leotard-wearing grappling brothers. 4. This one honestly surprised me in it's ignorance - saying that Fedor's takedown profficiency comes not from judo, but sambo instead is plain laughable. Sambo, unlike bjj, never hid that it came from judo. Fedor probably has thousands of takedowns during his career, and NONE of them came from shooting for the legs. When You see Fedor taking down a guy from a standing scramble - he's not doing sambo techniques - he's doing uchi-matas, kouchis, osotos and sasaes, ALL KODOKAN JUDO MOVES. 5. Saying that singles and doubles are the "safest" way of executing the takedown is also plain wrong. Look at the Dagestani crew and Khabib and Islam especialy. Sure, they shoot all the time, but what makes them extremely dangerous is that they could take an opponent down from clinch and body locks WITH CERTAINTY. Those sweet, sweet foot sweeps they do? Yep - judo. Mostly de-ashi barai and sasae tsurikomi ashi. Most of us judokas perfectly understand that judo in it's wildest dreams could't be one-over-all martial art in mma, but hey - NO MARTIAL ART IS. What judo CAN bring to the mma though is versatility of the takedown game, a crucial part of the fight - Fedor, Parisian, Khabib and Islam already showed us how, we're just waiting for our John Danaher, a guy that will come up with a better, and more robust system of teaching judo, specialy for the no-gi application. That would be it, and please forgive me for butchering English.
Sambo coming from Judo is largely immaterial. If we draw the sets Judo would be contained within Sambo's set because what matters is not parental lineage but knowledge gaps. If your father is an electrical engineer who teaches you when you're a kid and when you go to college you pick software engineering, you'll have a wider knowledge base than your father. You're out here essentially pretending it's impossible to learn beyond what your father knows, as if Judo being the origin doesn't mean that knowledge gaps can be addressed and built upon.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD Ok, and what's the point? I was arguing his take that Fedor's takedowns come from Sambo, altough they're nothing more than Judo techniques adapted for no-gi application.
What tells me you're ignorant on all of this is that you, unironically, believe in the "can't throw without a gi" myth, or the "lapel grips" myth. A zipped up jacket still has a chest to grab, it still has a neck to grab, it still has sleeves.
Ok as an offended judoka that also trains bjj imma respond a bit lol -Wrestling is obviusly better in mma so we agree on that -Regarding the bjj vs judo, both can be good and both can equally suck depending on your school, if you dont train takedowns or almost dont train takedowns, you are just as fucked as a judoka who does not have any ground work. That being said, you don´t really need a lot of groundwork to submit most people, but taking people down consistently even if they are untrained does require more practice. Still, you need some ground work and some takedown ability -Regarding the 1-)"you relly on a gi or a winter jacket" and the 2-)"you throw yourself as much a you throw the other guy". 1-) Judo at the highest levels does relly more on the gi because grip fighting becomes super important, that being said, most basic judo translate very easily to nogi and uses the same principles, so most people will fall against an osotogari or seoi nage without the gi, also people for some reason assume that we cant just grab a big chunk of cloth from your tshirt and throw you, nor grab your belt with a georgian grip and throw you, which we can. 2-)This is not the case, you do see high level judo competitors throwing theirselves with their opponents because there is no other way to throw another highly trained highly athletic individual (and even then it doesnt happen always), but when you have a skill difference even small is really easy to throw and keep yourself standing you see that a lot if you go to a judo dojo and see higher belts sparring colored ones.
I don't think its clear wrestling is better than judo in mma, I'm looking at the UFC specifically. Most judoka that went to the UFC actually fare pretty well, Karo Parisyan, Islam Mackhachev, Ronda Rousey, Kayla Harrison, etc. Wrestlers obviously do well too, I just don't think the sample size for Judo in MMA is large enough to make that call yet
1) It doesn’t translate as easy as you think. I know I have tried a lot of Judo throws in MMA sparring with very mixed success. Try and grab a t shirt and you will see you do not have anywhere near the same kind of leverage over someone’s body. Throws from georgian grip are rarely taught at your average dojo and when it is not well. 2) Yes this definitely is the case because I have been thrown by plenty of people better than me that roll with the momentum of the throw. Yes sometimes people remain standing but then that defeats the purpose of the throw to then follow up in me waza.
As a retired law enforcement officer, the last place I want to be in a street fight is on the ground. My goal is to get back onto my feet as fast as possible.
I don't get the point of this video. A martial art is defined by its rule set. Judo, BJJ and wrestling are different because the rule sets are different. Do we want them all to end up like MMA? Is boxing overrated because you can't kick? Is Muay Thai overrated because there is no ground game? Or are we evaluating them for self defense? These are sports. If you want to defend yourself, carry a knife or a gun.
This is a bad faith comment. Everyone understands that Muay Thai has a gap in knowledge as they only do grappling standing and only do sweeps and limited throws. Boxers can do well in MMA by simply learning to deal with the low kick threat which is kryptonite for the pure boxer. However, judokas aren't even the top grapplers in "no holds barred" grappling. Boxers and Muay Thai fighters can win a MMA fight by points or KO using their pure art. Judokas basically need Sambo or wrestling to do it.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD There are almost no boxers or nak muays that can win an MMA fight using their pure art. You cannot name anyone of that description, and if you try then you've probably named a mixed martial artist. A boxer literally has to get either kickboxing or muay thai training just to deal with kicks. Not to mention grappling training to save themselves against takedowns. Wrestlers themselves learn BJJ and boxing in order to work. So do Samboists, who literally learn judo in order to enhance their standing clinch grappling alongside wrestling. If you want to be good at MMA, you are doing MMA. Judo is not uniquely weak on its own- everything is.
It's pretty obvious that he talks about it's effectiveness in a fight. If you practice Judo or any martial art because you enjoy it as a sport, then this conversation doesn't concern you. But if you want to learn how to fight, then this guy brings a lot of good points on why Judo is a bad way to do so. We can talk about martial arts being different from self defense and fighting but, at the end of day, every single one of them advertises itself as a way to learn how to defend yourself. They are called MARTIAL arts for a reason.
@@jimpavlidis5915 They were created at different times for different purposes and in different cultures. In modern times, the comparison is pointless because it always boils down to rule sets. In self defence, the rule set is nil. Carry a weapon. Also, no one grinds a martial art for self defence. We could argue about the effectiveness for self defence given that you do it as a sport but that again is pointless and it certainly does not justify calling Judo useless or mediocre.
As a sincere response, I don't think you engaged with judo's curriculum. It seems like you had a conclusion and picked clips to justify it. You say they don't train to follow to the ground, but that's not true. You talk like all of the throws are hip throws, but very few are. MMA is most popular in America, where judo is least popular. The best judoka in Europe and Asia have no reason to go to MMA.
Ironically, following people to the ground is the only thing in this entire video that I relied on the world on an actual Judo black belt on. He was making the argument that Judo is better because it teaches take downs without teaching you to follow your opponent to the ground and get tangled up with them. Certainly not all are hip throws, but that is easily what Judo is best known for, and it's the main thing that Judo can claim to be better at than other sports are
@@ArmchairViolence Better at foot sweeps, Reeps and sacrifice throws as well the other 3/4 of Judo you forgot. Wrestling is good at blasting doubles and singles and because they are so easy to do. They neglect alot of clinch work because it's a high skill ceiling skillset. As shown by Owen livsey winning the catch wrestling world championship as primarily a judoka that said he "doesn't use hip throws but the other 70% of judo"
Certainly you have the choice whether to follow to the ground. You learn to maintain control to transition into a favourable position for a pin or a submission. Regarding throws, looking at London Olympic stats as an example, the top 3 scoring throws for men were the Uchi Mata (inner thigh throw), Seoi Nage (back-carrying throw), and Harai Goshi (hip sweep throw). Hip throws are in there, but not the most common and other moves like Osoto Gari (big outside foot sweep) are more iconic. Most of your time is spent on combinations of foot sweeps or pulls to off-balance an opponent before you can attack with a throw, then pin or strangle them.
@@domwood3251 Owen Livsey didn't win a Catch wrestling world championship. He won a Special Promotion match at the end of the championship against aging Josh Barnett (and he won by decision, not pin or submission) . That match was solely for Promotion purposes. To have famous names on the poster. That's it. It wasn't a part of the Championship bracket.
It is kind of crazy to think that judo sucks for self defense purpose, imo its better to know judo if you get attacked outdoor than to know bjj (and I do both and love both as much) My case is that BJJ practicioner are overall bad at takedown (if they did not do wrestling), and that judo offers much better control standing up and more explosive reactions The best mix for self defense is either muay or boxing + judo or wrestling I would avoid going on the ground at all cost if I were attacked in the street
I wrestled in middle school and high school but stopped after graduating. I joined my university’s free judo club in my senior year of college because everything else was too expensive for me and it was certainly an interesting time. Questions about leg grabs would come up frequently, and every time the sensei would offer a different variation of a completely ridiculous made-up explanation of why they were “too dangerous.” Remaining silent and respectful during these discussions every day was a huge challenge for me. Finally, at an event where the team came together to watch Olympic judo footage, I pointed it out whenever judokas executed textbook double leg takedowns, which became increasingly common as the footage got closer to the year 2010. Finally, I got the sensei to admit that “The real reason they banned leg grabs was because the wrestlers joined and started winning everything, and the judo people got really pissed off.”
@@lihchong2267 From what I understand, the founders of Sambo were not satisfied with judo even then. They wanted a freestyle judo that would allow almost anything. Another reason is that the second founder of Sambo was a Greco-Roman wrestler and wanted to introduce a wrestler's mentality into the sport.
@@muhammadibnmusaal-chorezmi7240 tbh like 10 years ago the difference between the two sports is pretty minimal. one allows chokes, the other leglocks. It's why when you see a fighter who gets billed as a Sports Judo practicioner, they will also have plenty of judo experience as thats where the money is.
I've heard this story before and it is likely true however all the years previous to 2012 Olympics Japan was still top of the medal table there is only one year they haven't been top pre leg grabs.
So what does that have to do with Judo. Those techniques still exist and people still train non olympic Judo you understand this right? Like man I wonder if Koreans do that there Korean style Judo.
I do Judo and I have been saying this for a while. Judo in the USA seems to have a inferiority complex where a bunch of nerds try to belabor the virtues of their martial art for self defense and this video was just so cathartic.
4 years of Judo here: it's not. It lacks emphasis on ground fighting in most schools (mainly because of the competitive rules, that are way too restrictive when it comes to ground fighting), it relies too much on using the gi, and most of the throws make you turn your back, while not being that reliable (hard to perform/not guaranteed to be effective even if performed correctly), which is a perfect recipe for disaster.
@@SoldierDrew First of all, you don't need to capitalize "kuzushi" everytime you write it, it's just a word from another language, not some kind of mystical technique that has been kept a secret for 200 000 000 years. Secondly, since you're not japanese, you can just say "get your opponent off balance". Thirdly, with or without getting your opponent off balance correctly, you can still be countered on the floor, and end up with the other guy on your back, or on top of you; which is exactly what is brought up in this video, and what happened to me almost every time I fought during the past 4 years: I got thrown, landed either on top of my opponent, or behind him with a fully locked on choke, and then got told that I had lost because my shoulders touched the floor first.
@@na-ky8ou I've never practiced judo, but I have practiced sambo, a somewhat similar martial art. To a degree, sambo suffers from similar issues as judo, though not as much. We practice some freestyle wrestling takedowns and spend more time on the floor compared to judo. However, when it comes to floor techniques, BJJ has far more to offer.
@@na-ky8ou First of all: Saying "kuzushi" and "Uke" and "tori" is way easier and explains what is what than always having to say "off balancing" and "the guy who receives the techniques" and "the guy who does the technique". Second: No one has to be French to use French loan words in English. The same goes for Japanese loan words, or any other languages loan words we use in the English language. "Bidet" isn't an English word, so we should just say "toilet that sprays water up your but." right? How about "Deja-vu"? Or "Tortellini"? Just say "cheese stuffed noodle", we're not from Italy, right? You sound very silly for dying on this hill. Third: Sport Judo has done quite a lot to hamper Judo's already limited effectiveness. Learning Judo to incorporate the principles and concepts outside of Judo can be greatly beneficial. I don't know many other places to learn footsweeps and practice them to the degree Judo will allow.
The problem is the other guy grabs yours and it becomes Don Frye vs Takayama. Out of all the scenarios where grabbing a shirt while striking is available, you managed to pick the least effective one. Trading CTE for zero gain.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD mhmmm. Judo Guys dont teach dealing with strikes. But there are gi manipulations who put you in better position to strike, defend strikes and grapple. Sambo lays emphasize on this ruclips.net/video/UblnqH6e9Ew/видео.html
Judo was founded under the assumption that after you get an opponent to the ground you stab them to death, double legs, scramble and submissions are a last resort option when fighting for survival or on the battlefield
Correct. Judo came from Jiu jitsu which was concerned with close quarter battlefield fighting. After your long range weapons are gone (bow/spear/staff) then it's just you, your opponent and a short blade. It's probably easier to stab someone after you've thrown them on their back? (I'm not really sure because I've never tried to stab someone? I guess it's disorienting and tough to stab someone if you've been thrown on your back?). Keeping the Gi was probably a decision to stay faithful to the battlefield applicability as well. People will always be wearing armor or battle blouse on a battle field. You don't normally face a make opponent in a war. People don't realize that nationalized martial arts were about equipping the male populace with some basics so that basic training could be shortened. Nationalizing and promoting Judo and other martial arts in a standardized way was also about general physical fitness. I think the video makes some great points which I agree with but it misses the point of what judo is really about: military readiness, fitness, moral development. Judo doesn't do a bad job at those things. Judo was not about making the male populace better at street fighting. Pre nationalized karate and kung fu were all about street fighting though but I would argue that karate and kung fu are better at very close quarter fighting (hallways and allies of ancient Asia). Asian fighting arts also have the problem of creating a fighting system for dealing with other Asian people. Not all people around the world have the size/shape of Asian people. People should first decide what they really want in an fighting art then decide what their body structure is then pick a martial art and they should always couple their martial art with intense physical conditioning. Your art is useless without a foundation of rigorous lifelong physical fitness.
Bro has never heard about the gracie hunter. When it comes to ground work, basic strong fundamental groundwork is more than enough. In fact, quick and to the point ground work is highly encouraged in mma. A triangle choke and armbar can get you very far. whereas bjj is on an infinite time loop and is so slow. Judo holistically is up there.
I use judo all the time as a bouncer. Do I only use Judo? No, of course not but if I don't want to hurt a man standing in front of me I will not blast a double on him, instead I will trip or throw him while controlling him on a way down. Does the fact that I am 190 cm and 115 kg help me use it? Of course but that always is helpful and I believe that an avarage human could do it as well. Also here in Poland You wear something with long sleeve for most of the year, especially at nights and let me tell that grabbing a GI transfers to grabbing a hoodie or a jacket preatty well. I would say it is worth to combine more martial arts or train MMA if You want to reach maximum potential but Judo can be a very nice suplement for your own style and can give You advantage. Ow, and also, being thrown on your back and hitting concrete can easly end a fight so if you were abuot to use with maulitious intent it sure is possible.
Dude, Judo is badass for the street. Imagine using the entire planet earth as a weapon---thrown to concrete [head first]. Also don't forget that the ground part of BJJ was originally from Judo called [Newaza]. Gracies didn't invent ground work.
You are on a padded surface, which allows for scrambles regardless of takedown amplitude. Change the fighting environment to "da streetz" or concrete and see how well an individual would even get the idea to scramble from a full commitment osoto-gari, which by the way is a high- percentage move that is NOT A HIP THROW. The ground in which you land on drastically changes the dynamics. Also, Judo doesn't magically go away without the gi because people most of the time wear clothes. They aren't as sturdy as the GI because you're not meant to practice with them repeatedly.
A very nice and fair take. In any fight, no sole martial art has any massive advantage over another. Striking mixed with some sort of grappling is needed on da streetz or in the cage. In early MMA, it seems that judokas had some advantage in the clinch, since early on the clinch game was more dirty boxing, knees, level changes for takedowns, and arm control/whizzers. But now the clinch game has grown and many fighters know what to look for in terms of hip leverage and set ups for trips.
"In any fight, no sole martial art has any massive advantage over another." That's just...not true at all. The history of MMA itself proves that certain individual martial arts match up against others really, really badly. Or are you going to try and say that a wrestler doesn't have a massive advantage over someone who only did boxing, or Aikido?
@@AirLancer I'm saying you have to be well rounded. Yes wrestling and BJJ > plum flower fist, but even then plum flower fist guy's flying jump kick still might score the KO. So you need some basic striking "sense" and skills along with ground work.
Judo provides enough athleticism to fight 90% of people on the street. It also teaches you how to handle the human body, though possibly not as well as wrestling or BJJ. That said, take a good judoka, give him 9 months of boxing and 9 months of BJJ, and he will probably defeat 99% of people on the street.
You can take a (healthy male) baseball player, bodybuilder, football player or whatever, give him 9 months of BJJ and 9 months of boxing and they would beat 99% of people in the street. He is saying judo is good and legit, but for fighting there is a list of better options
@@apc9714 Yes, true. But judo would be a much better option compare to baseball, bodybuilding or football because judo does have a grappling foundations and other sports do not.
I don't remember any YT video making me so tired. You are complaining all the time about Judo, have you praised this martial art for anything? for a grip like a crocodile's jaw? for incredible durability? 1. You show some Olympic games, of course they don't want to land on their backs, that's why they train. The last thing a judoka wants is to lie on his back. 2. IJF makes a really bad for Judo community - banning legs, but we cannot do anything about it. 3. Judo vs BJJ - 2 weeks ago there was uploaded YT short, 7 mln views, Judoka vs BJJ, both black belts, Judoka beat him in 20 seconds and put on the lever 4. Judo vs Wrestling - yeah you might be right. I heard that there are some wrestlers going on Judo tournaments and winning. but so what? 5. Presence in MMA - MMA has its own rules, alot of was talked about it why BJJ or striking are better for it. 6. How you can even compare that Judo vs BJJ = automatically BJJ win? The person is fighting not the Martial Art !!! If on street fight enemy don't know how to fight and you know ANY martial art - you win If on street fight enemy know how how to fight and you know ANY martial art - up to a person, its lottery BUT if we have fight on street it can end also with a knife, and most probably it will like it, who normally attack other people? The best method is RUN. Whoever read the comment - don't listen what any YT say, pick any martial art you like and train. Go on training and have fun. Do what you like. It will benefit you anyway regardless.
" pick any martial art you like and train. Go on training and have fun. Do what you like. It will benefit you anyway regardless" THIS. I'm so tired of hearing "x martial art is not functional" while the goal for a martial ART is self-improvement through a fighting sport. The choice is not what's the most effective to beat someone up, it's which martial art will make me feel the best about myself. Excellent comment, thank you!
I completely agree with you. Personally, in a street fight I'd take my chances against a (2 year level) BJJ guy with some stand up game as opposed to taking the (2 year level) Judo guy with some ground game.
I just think it's incredibly stupid that he thought it would be a good argument to nitpicky a video of a BJJ guy beating a judo guy and used that as an actual basis for why judo sucks. If that's what we're doing here, I could easily pick a video where the opposite happens and have just as strong an argument as him
"4. Judo vs Wrestling - yeah you might be right. I heard that there are some wrestlers going on Judo tournaments and winning. but so what?" That is right. I also heard some Judoka going to wrestling tournaments and win, but so what?
In defence of Judo, just because a sport “doesn’t work on da streetz” doesn’t mean it’s a bad sport, because the point of a sport is to be engaging to play. I mean bowling doesn’t work in a street fight either, but that doesn’t make it a bad sport. Then again, I guess getting hit in the shin with a bowling ball would suck…
The way I see it, Judo is only half the martial art, BJJ is the other half. Judo rules have destroyed it's ground game while BJJ rules have destroyed it's standup. Judo + BJJ is the COMPLETE art.
The reasons you mentioned are some of the reasons why I have adopted Justin Flores’ “wrestle-judo-jitsu” philosophy of combining it all, gi and no gi. He (j Flo) and max Schneider (onejudoka) are a treat to watch.
These takes depend on some fairly unreasonable or flat-out wrong assumptions about the judo players, i.e. - that they don't know anything other than judo - pure judo like any martial art has gaps in it's game but judo techniques are absolutely effective and super dangerous when combined with basic wrestling and jiujitsu. It's like saying muay thai is a bad martial art because it doesn't do takedown defence; - mixing between effectiveness in combat sports (where scrambles and ground game matters) vs self defence (where if you judo throw someone onto concrete, they are not getting back up); - the idea that gi throws don't work without a gi is also wrong. A lot of gi throws can be performed nogi with small adjustments, whereas it's harder to bring a nogi game to gi due to having to learn grip breaks and not being able to do things like duck unders or free stiff arms when someone has a grip on you. In self defence, if you live somewhere cold or it's winter, people wear coats and heavy clothing. If not, an uchi, ippon or osoto works the same with or without a grip. Wrestling and Judo has a lot of the same techniques regardless. - that rulesets define the martial art, which, sure modern judo rules are a bit silly and overly restrictive, rewarding giving up bad positions to score points/avoid being scored on (as does wrestling which also rewards going belly down, or jiujitsu by encouraging guard pulling but outlawing slams or high amplitude takedowns) - this is like the argument an MMA fighter would be defeated by groin shots and eye pokes "because it's against the rules of MMA", or that jiujitsu guys would all pull guard in a bar fight. It's just wrong - every combat sport has restrictive, "unrealistic" sport rules. A judoka is a grappler first, a competition rule player second. Most competent grapplers know which positions work on a mat in a comp setting and would do things differently on the street or wherever else. - that judoka don't have subs and can't scramble is also just wrong. A judoka may be a worse scrambler than a wrestler or nogi BJJ player but would still outscramble any normal person 10 times out of 10, and judo players are great at pinning. Also, a LOT of judo schools teach newaza and spend time doing ground work and rolling. Elbow locks a la armbars are not the only permitted sub in Judo, this is just flatly incorrect. Certain chokes, kimuras, americanas etc. are also allowed and part of judo newaza. And I say this as someone who's grappling base is nogi BJJ and wrestling that's only done a handful of judo classes and hates training in the gi.
I love Judo but thank you for making the point that "HITTING PEOPLE WITH THE EARTH" doesn't always end the fight. Drives me crazy that no one seems to understand this.
When I was coming up one of my coaches emphasized “smashing” people and joked about people coughing up a lung. A really shitty double-leg isn’t going to end a fight, but when they go aerial and hit the ground so hard that a thud would echo through the room even through the tatami, and you don’t know how to take a fall, it 9/10 ends the fight. Actually experienced judo players get concussed often even on the tatami.
Agreed... but also: Folkstyle Wrestling is literally Catch Wrestling for kids. And Folkstyle Wrestling dominates MMA. Meaning "Catch for Kids" beats any other martial art as a base for MMA.
@@frankiecal3186 it’s not enough to hurt. You have to be able to snap or tender them unconscious. There are catch wrestling moves for it, but a whole slew of them are for just making people go ouch so you an take their money and continue on with the carnival.
I'm a new-ish judo coach (since last summer), so I came into this like: "Haha, time to get ripped on and reflect," but: -Sport judo rewards players for the wrong things, like ending up on bottom. That's why you wouldn't use sport judo and footsweeps (maybe ko-uchi if other dude is really stupid) in a self defense situation. There's osoto, tai o, and hip throws for self defense. Yama arashi on 'crete is basically murder. -Judo doesn't allow leg grabs or it encourages people to not rely on grabbing someone's leg to throw them? Also, Kosen judo is a thing and becoming rapidly popular to the point that I have to learn and teach a whole new set of techniques. -Judo is useless if the guy isn't wearing a jacket, except there's lots of ways to throw someone without any upper body layers. I'm glad you made this video because I do generally feel judo on it's own isn't perfect, but I feel like a lot was left out.
I would definitely agree. It is an interesting perspective to add to your arsenal at the very least. Especially as you learn from Judoka who could care less about competition, like both of my instructors who were former military. Lots of conversations and time dedicated towards techniques around moving unwilling heavier (than you) masses.
I'm not sure I could call Kosen Judo as especially popular. Getting more popular, yes, but still hardly mainstream. But regarding the throws that can be done without a gi: many of these are part of wrestling, and often performed with more intent to get positional advantage. Whizzer Throw = Uchimata, Arm Throw = Seoi Nage, etc. If you want to make Judo more functional for mixed combat sports, you'd first want to do a fair amount of no-go practice. You could also allow the teaching and practice of now-defunct techniques like morote gari and kuchiki taoshi. It would also be prudent to have the judoka catch a pin or lock after the takedown ("securement"). If you want it better for street combat, much the same, but also you can practice street-clothes grips on sweaters or jackets (not everyone lives in the deep south). But all of this would take away training time for sport Judo, which is what a lot of people taking Judo are there to do. So it's on you as an instructor to determine what's in your students' best interests.
@@szilardfineascovasa6144 I'm not sure what point you're making, I defended no gi judo, but I prefer osotos and tai o to footsweeps. If your favorite fighter makes a throw work, then good for them.
I would like to add another thing. Even if you end the fight by "hitting them with the earth" and cracking their neck or something, that is actually WORSE! now you will face jail time for murder charges just for having thrown some drunk bum. With other grappling styles you can choose to subdue and control them. With judo... you either flipped them and they died, or you flipped them and they got back up and continued fighting. I must say, I have fought some judoka in bjj, and they are often tough as nails.
Man when i did judo as a kid you threw to get a pin. Its not much of a thing anymore but in terms of striking there is kudo. Ground fighting used to be more of a thing too.
Most of these points are valid, but I can attest to the danger of an old-school guy who has trained with Japanese judokas. A 45 year-old black-belt judoka came to our BJJ gym and after a few minutes of pass guard game (king of the mat) he was dominating most everyone and even got occasional submissions over the two black belt instructors. He was bigger than them though. His understanding of balance and using body weight and technique instead of muscle was remarkable.
BJJ blackbelt and Judo blackbelt here. Freestyle Judo and Kosen Judo -- decidedly the least popular rulesets, by exponential scale -- are drastically better for actual combat. But even those are best used as an elective "minor" in a BJJ curriculum. But when they are incorporated as such, they solidly fill in some absences in BJJ holistic arsenals. Just as wrestling should be a required "minor" concentration in a BJJ curriculum. IJF style should only be trained by people who are fine with it being a pure sport, or pure hobby. One of my favorite spectacles at IBJJF opens was when BJJ black belts who were also judo blackbelts would ragdoll the other blackbelt on their feet. Lots of airtime!
Hey just a couple notes that you should consider - The stalling by holding the opponent down really isn't what you think. Traditionally, Judo is sort of what emerged after the samurai era ended. Osaekomi is pretty much what some samurai would do - hold their opponent down in water to drown them. Maybe not practical now, but that's why it was there at all. If you want to criticize hold downs, it goes for wrestling too, although they are clearly pretty different. But it is lsrgely symbolic, although not practical now. - Yeah, a 4th dan getting raped like that.... not a good look. But many dojos are still out there spend at least half the time on the ground. Its not that judo doesn't have good scrambling and chaining, because believe me it does... its just that clubs who don't can get away with showing the turtle position to blick anything and calling it a day, aince the IJF encourages that. Judo clubs who get some stray BJJ guys are very privileged, since those guys are obviously great at the ground. I will come back to the Ne Waza point. - Judo takedowns are indeed, not as good as wrestling. Especially with the IJF fcking up everything... and I would not reccomend Judo for street fights, as a judo athlete. Winter or regardless. Good luck throwing on ice. There are many reasons to do Judo, but self defense, not really. Fun fact, theres some University in the UK that partnered recently with elderly homes to teach breakfalls to prevent accidents from falls for elderly people. Some things that are actually good from Judo for MMA to varying success: - If you dont neglect the ground game, and want to win there, you're forced to go scramble as fast as fuck, since the bums running IJF will give you a penalty if you dont choke him out instantly or even pause. Yes, MMA has no Gi, but its a stylistically good thing that Judo has... besides the turtle position... - It is adaptable to No Gi. Satoshi Iishi judo champion, has been the reigning No Gi champion in Croatia or somewhere in europe for a lonnnng time, but only after switching to No Gi long after retirement. Also, look up the Masaahiko Kimura wiki and you'll find out about the Gracie VS Kimura superfight. If nothing else, its a fun read and was one of the firdt superfights ever. But it does show the contrast between BJJ then and Judo then, although Helio called out Kimura who had maybe 20-40lbs more than Gracie. - Unfortunately, judo styles are inconsistent for crossover to MMA. A judo tactician who relies on the Gi is going to be worse than a Georgian style judoka who just comes close, wraps aroung the waist and launches him into space... that's the type of judoka I'd send to a street fight. They'd call that guy neck breaker on Fox the next morning. - It is similar to European wrestling in a weird way. American wrestling has little emphasis on using your feet as hands, unlike European wrestling and Judo. - Judo is more than the sport. Asides from the atemi waza BS striking judo has, and the kata, the Do in Judo means something along the lines of the way, to perform actions with minimum effort and maximum efficiency. So even if you think its a shit art for MMA, it is definitely one of the definitive martial arts. As someone who's done judo for maybe 5 years I'd say judo is above karate, and behind sambo, wrestling, nogi and pretty much all the regular striking sports for MMA. But man Judo as a sport is fcking awesome, and the history too man.
16:30 Ohh that great, can you enter a Judo competition like Seth did and get a medal? Out of curiosity have you won medals in any form of martial art competition? Or had any ranked Amateur fights?
Please, judo supporters, remember that Western martial technics have also survived through their sporting form. Then what we know now as "wrestling" is also a very supervised combat sport so that there are not too many cripples or deaths in a peaceful society. Military wrestling technics (associated to fencing skills, such as bayonets or swords) were also used on the battlefields for centuries. As in Japan. And it was not to look pretty, but to kill the enemy in hand-to-hand combat... or to capture and ransom them.
One thing that immediately strikes me in these kinds of arguments is what you said around 2:45. Judo doesn't work in an 'actual fight'. I honestly hate how much work that vague term can do. You either mean a street fight, in which the counter argument is people can just do judo as a competitive sport without being concerned if it is the single best self defense sport (you don't punch or kick, obviously it's not the best) or you mean a everything goes kind of show of between people from different martial arts backgrounds, which is an entirely different beast. The thing is though, that in an MMA ring you are not doing self defence, and on the street you are doing MMA - there are way more variables. A lot of arguments just come down to this, and at this point it should be obvious to everyone who has a bit of a brain that muay thai and wrestling are simply going to 'beat' most other martial arts. Judo is weird because it tries to be a spectator sport, but as you show it does not fully succeed at this. However, I think this is the more interesting angle to judge the sport by. Most of it's competitive rules exist to force judokas to practice throws, at a much more fundamental level than you even adressed. Not only do you wear a gi, you are not allowed to grip in a very 'stiff' way (no idea what the English terminology is), which is basically the most effective way to grip someone to prevent them from throwing you. You get disqualified if you grip the wrong way too many times. The question is whether judo, with it's ruleset around spectatorship (and sometimes safety), is actually all that interesting for spectators. And I think you are right in you examples that not only is the ground work really boring, but also the scoring system makes little sense. Judo is really due for a revised ruleset. However, in my opinion a sport like judo where people throw each other around could be really fun to watch if it succeeded at what it did. Would it be the best in the UFC? No, but a boxer is also going to have a hard time defending against kicks, but that doesn't mean boxing should change it's ruleset for that reason. In conclusion, I do not think you are wrong, but whether or not something is overrated depends on the vague general opinion anyway, and is kind of hard to prove either way. If your arguments around fighting sports rely on both 'overrated' and 'actual fight' (I cannot stress how much I hate that 'term'), your arguments are being somewhat carried by vague concepts.
This is silly, you seem to know just a bit about every martial arts and it shows. IF MMA was fought in the Gi everyone would use Judo as a base and go on about how Judo is the greatest base for mma etc. The only reason why it is not fought in a gi is because its made to make money and people want to see jacked fighters with 6 pack abs fight it out. Where as normally in the real world people are usually wearing something. With that know fact, just think about how many if any fights you've had on the street and if the other person was wearing a long sleeve shirt you could grab (You don't need a jacket) my rate is 2/3 they were wearing something I could grab and even the one without anything I foot swept in about 2-3 seconds and was on top of him. I am about 6 feet tall weight about 205lbs I strongly doubt... let me rephrase that I put good money you could not throw me on my head. Granted I have taken a few no gi judo classes and have been adjusting my Judo for no Gi. Actually it has been easier to throw people without the Gi if I am honest. I can go on about this but I might just make a video instead.
The thing is, judo's rules are changing to make it a better sport to watch/train, it's not being modified to be better in real fights and I agree with that because I and the majority of people don't train judo for self defense or MMA, but for competing in judo itself.
This is what people forget. The leg grabs were not used for great Judo, but basically amounted to gaming the system. In danger? Drop to the legs and stall out. Ahead on points? Ne-waza and run the clock. There are still flaws to Judo rules, but I see why they're the way they are.
I'll say this. Why are you wanting to grapple on the Streets? I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but a well placed Judo Throw on concrete or asphalt can not only be a Fight stopper, but it can lead to a fatality. Most people aren't used to having their balance manipulated like that. I'm not a Judoka, but I mos def disagree. Also, MMA should never be the criteria. Cage Fighting as a Sport Ruleset doesn't equate to a Street Fight.
In my case, up here in the frozen north, we wear hoodies/jackets/heavy winter jackets about half of the year. Lapel grabs in my mind are a fantasy, sleeve grabs on the other hand...
This is my first time in this channel and I really enjoyed the criticism. I’ve been doing judo for 17 years now since I was 3 and have been doing wrestling for 2 and a half years now as well as boxing for about a year. Here’s my take. The major downfall of judo lies in the absence of striking (but that also kinda applies to every grappling art) as for the points you made. 1) the absence of judoka in mma. This is mainly due to the fact that the IJF will not allow you to compete in judo if you also compete in any other combat sport. Seems harsh; it is but it’s the rules. And if you started out with judo then there is not much incentive to leave a martial art which you are good at and enjoy over anything else. Most people that do bjj will do it for mma because the competitive scene is a mockery of the art. Although, a lot of judo techniques can be seen in the ufc but are often passed off as wrestling takedowns because they were done in a clinch. Grip fighting is completely absent because you would end up groping each others honkers. And so is very difficult to identify when a technique is used. 2) needing a gi to perform a takedown. Judo is defined by 2 things; the first being: seiryoku zenyo (principle of maximum efficiency) and most importantly: kuzushi (breaking an opponents balance). Kuzushi is extremely complex so to be concise I will not describe it fully but you will be able to find some great demonstrations of it from some other channels. Some people are mislead into thinking that a grip is completely necessary for a throw however it only makes implementing the kuzushi easier. Think of it this way: an American metaphor would be going into a bar and telling people that I single-handedly killed 20 people with just my index finger. My index finger merely pulled the trigger of my Glock 19 which sent a bullet through their skull. A bit of a retarded argument isn’t it. Finger-gun-person Grips-kuzushi-throw A perfectly reasonable response to this would be asking why we would use a gi if throws could be executed without them. First reason is tradition. Second is safety. We use a lot of uchi-Komi in judo which is repeated practice of a throw without execution to practice technique. I did this once to someone who wasn’t wearing a gi and dislocated his shoulder. Turns out the gi also evenly distributes the energy throughout your whole torso to avoid such injury. 3) judo’s applicability in street fights. A perfectly executed throw on concrete will hospitalize you. When I was younger there was a 6 month period where the dojo was undergoing renovation and we had to rent out the local Methodist church where we laid our tatami out but it didn’t cover the whole flooring. As a disclaimer, the floor was made out of marble. Shattered my pelvis. Made shitting a very tedious task to say the least. Once I got into a school fight and performed a picture perfect obi tori gaeshi onto a kid who was giving me trouble. This was on grass. Immediately after performing the throw I then broke his arm using juju gatame. Sent the kid into a screaming fit without throwing a single punch. These examples are all well and good but I’ve just alluded to exactly what you said would happen where we give arbitrary examples of one off scenarios. You got me there. A major factor however is stance. In wrestling and bjj the favoured stance is one that is off center; leaning forward to prevent a single or double being performed on yourself but also simultaneously being closer to the opponents legs with less distance to shoot for one of your own. Judo however, holds a perfectly upright and balanced posture like that of those seen in striking oriented stances with footwork exactly in parallel with that of boxing. When you pit a wrestling stance against a boxer the wrestler will face a dilemma. Either use a wrestling stance and go to an all you can eat buffet of hooks and uppercuts or properly defend himself and be far enough away from the boxers legs that the boxer has more than enough time to sprawl or smash him. A modern paradox. Doing both boxing and judo I can confidently say that it has a chemistry almost as good as unsupervised toddlers and small choking hazards. Truly a power combo. 4) judo has become a spectator sport. Yes it has. The reason why leg grabs were banned was to differentiate judo from sambo and wrestling grappling sports. This does not by any means however stop us from practicing throws using leg grabs and we have some wild ones at that (check out nomura vs oyegin 1996 Olympics). You also showed examples of how a throw ending in a more advantageous position was not rewarded an ippon whereas the opposite was true for a sloppy throw. Of course if the victor wanted to end up in a more advantageous position then he could do so very easily but the rules does not specify and so therefore there is no incentive. In the clip with shohei, he rolled over him because the fight had already ended. It would be seen as disrespectful to continue fighting him. Please do not judge a sport based on its rules because in that case, bjj is a pile of steaming horseshit (ibjjf). I also trained in a gym that had a heavy emphasis on ne-waza because my instructor understood the importance of groundwork. By the time I was 14 I had won more street fights than actual competition matches as it wasn’t seen as necessary to compete by my sensei. To close out this novel of a response I will say that no martial art is perfect and it’s about the practitioner not the style. Your criticisms were fair, well argued and justified. If one thing is certain about all this it’s that we can agree that we disagree and the most superior form of fighting is the combination of many.
2:00 this part was funny. It’s not 10 points because the first number is for waza ari and the second is for ippon so the guy only scored a half point because two waza ari makes an ippon (which is a victory). I’m not trying to be pedantic but you said it like he scored a half court shot😂
@@abc-vw8iy To be honest they had a wrestling/sambo background. They were always allowed to have training that fixed Judo's flaws. You go to 90% of Judo schools saying you want to train for MMA they'll say "go to an MMA school then".
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD In Russia thwir system of training is different. Almost everybody from Khabibs team trained judo a lot and they are all black belts because it was the favorite sport of their coach. Khabib evem started as judo athlete and Islam competed on th local level when he was younger, he was talking about that few times. Also sambo is like upgraded version of judo, like judo before these modern rules. Anyways saying that Judo is bad is very stupid when we have that much elite athletes that use judo even in mma.
Hello Mr Violence. Nice to see you again. Almost missed this one then realized I did not have Notifications on. Controversial subject, no doubt. Especially when I find videos extolling Judo like"why judo is best for self defense - Joe Rogan" and "this is why judo is the best martial art" and "lethal techniques banned" and "old judo was crippling." However you provide a very cogent and logical argument whereas other sources seem primarily emotional or biased. I am always impressed with the effort you make and the logical structure of your arguments and the lively, crisp and slightly sarcastic presentation style. I pretty much always find your arguments quite valid and very convincing. You are certainly one of the best and clearest commentator on fighting styles I have come across. So thank you once again for your efforts and be well until next time. Cheers!
Well there IS a reason why all that was banned and can't be done or you won't have a sport at all. Funny how they don't have that there bullet dodge ball sport where they shoot each other with bullets and shit for funzos. And old Judo is crippling that's why it works. This video is on Olympic Judo. So much is banned for wrestling too and most of the MMA rules are against what a wrestler would do, you can glean a lot by which sport gets all the bans, which punch or kick is banned? Soccer kicks and stomps to the face and shit....yes now why can't you do that catch wrestling shit and maim people gee i wonder if its effective.
@@SM-nz9ff Then why even talk about the defensive efficacy of what is defined as a sport. Moot point really. If you can maim people with judo then it is an effective system.
In competition, people play to the rules, so in judo competition, people do what gets points there. Same in BJJ and Wrestling. You can't judge the art by what is being done in the rule set. You could have gotten just as many examples of wrestlers and BJJ guys doing things in competitions in their sport that would get them wrecked in MMA. You found a few random examples of judoka who botched their transition that's not analysis. You should at least have looked at Jason Morris' wrestling highlight reel before preparing this. Morris was an Olympic judo silver medalist who wrestled Div I in college, while only training judo. About the only wrestling matches he lost were when his opponent pulled off a solid low single. Pretty amazing for a guy who wasn't even training wrestling. Morris is not an outlier. Search "judo in a wrestling match" and you'll see plenty of people who know how to apply judo in other settings.
Within the first two minutes you complain that "this guy got points even though he ended up in bottom position! If this was MMA or Wrestling, he wouldn't have got points for that". Yeah dude, it's a completely different sport with different rules. Your critique is literally that judo is bad because it has a different ruleset than other sports. No shit dude. I don't even understand how you can even process that as a valid critique in your brain without immediately realizing how stupid that is. Its a shame that all these martial arts channels that otherwise make good content are doing this trend of "this traditional martial art/training method is stupid" and then you watch the video and it's the most arbitrary nitpicky complaints ever...
@@RaveyDavey Reasoning is always open to a rebuke; much of Armchair's argument was precisely that individual fights where a judoka prevailed weren't representative of how good the martial art was as a system. He backed this up pretty strongly by looking at Judo's poor record in MMA. If we reduced arguments to their herald I might as well be the greatest coach of all time since I could beat up 57 year old John Danaher no problem.
This guy is just biased dude, don´t listen to everything you hear on youtube. Judo is lethal, you don´t need a Gi to perform. Skin works just fine, it just hurts like crazy. It does everything Jiu-jitsu does, you just have an excellent variety of takedowns on top of that. Would love to see someone try and kick an expert judo Ka to the face, and see who is left standing. (Pro tip, keep both legs on the ground with a wide stance and a low center of gravity) If you try the same with a punch, your center of gravity moves with that motion. And you will be trying to breathe after landing. It hurts, and takes a while for your lungs to unfold. Then comes the broken ribs etc. Because people that punch and kick, are not taught how to fall correctly.
@@guyfawkes5012I never sparred in my life at all! But I scouted my whole city and found kickboxing, MMA and judo. I plan to train after my 2nd semester test which ends in like 2 weeks.
Fair enough, IJF rules sure put unnatural boundaries. 11:33 Judo vs. Da Streetz But... is it really interesting to settle "who of these two X practitioners would actually win on the street"? 😀 I know there are judokas who write that, and ArmchairViolence adress them in this section of the video... The problem with "Judo vs. Da Streetz" is that there is no "fair fight" at all. People will fight as dirty a possible, they can be armed or with friends, other people will interfer etc. Street fights are not interesting because "anything goes". Who wins: The World Champion Boxer vs. A 3rd person with a gun? Street Fights sucks, and I write that especially to the judokas defending judo with "Da Streetz" argument. It's more interesting who would a fair win in a competition (which Armchair Violence seem to have evidence that supports that wrestlers/bjj do better than judo). It's also been said a million times before, it's not really the martial art that matters, it's the individual. Judo is popular that's why there are many people invested in it and defend it. The tribalism and defending needs to stop tho. It's silly. Judo has flaws (which this video humorously point out) and but the flaws won't go away with tribalism/ online arguments.
Yeah Judo does have flaws however it absolutely has benefits including for self defense. People have literally had there arms broken in competition from these techniques like Waki Gatame there is literally a compilation video of it as A matter of fact Shinya Aoki used it on Keith & Dislocated his arm & Judo relies on Kuzushi or off balancing it's opponents which is crucial to the throws. You do not necessarily need A Jacket to throw someone at the most all you need for these techniques is Strong Hips & Leg's.
You've raised some interesting, valid points in your video. I'd love to see a discussion between you and Chadi or Shintaro Higashi on the subject. That said, I think Judo is a good complementary martial art to BJJ - especially if you don't have the option of doing wrestling or sambo in your area.
Not really sure what Chadi or Shintaro have anything to say. Shintaro is interested in Judo alone. Chadi focuses on history presentation but falls short on debating the efficacy of Judo outside of it's own sport context.
Judo is S tier for self defence. Has been used extensively by police and military and proven in combat repeatedly. Plenty of footage online of Judo being used in real fights and real self defence situations. Judo black belts have long been notoriously good in real fights.
If you're in the military and executing a Judo throw in combat, nearly everything has gone terribly wrong because using your entrenching tool as a weapon is more effective than trying to use Judo on an armed opponent.
@@ynghuch that applies to every combat sport. Boxers wear gloves Judo players no leg grabs and rely on gi Greco Roman no leg grabs Freestyle wrestling: hunched over posture Sambo: limited time on the ground BJJ to much time on the ground The ability to be athletic and work against resistance is what helps the most.
As someone else commented and you alluded to, Judo’s advantage over wrestling is judo’s ubiquity. The question is how available is wrestling for anyone beyond their school years? Myself included.
I really appreciate this video. What you said at 13:25 is also really interesting to me. Do you think you could do a video addressing which takedowns from wresting would work on concrete vs. which ones would get the person performing the takedown hurt? I feel like I see a lot of takedowns in the UFC that would hurt both people if it were performed on concrete. Wrestling seems like a great martial art for self-defense, but sometimes it seems like there are only a few takedowns that would really be wise to use on a hard surface. I don't know that much about wrestling though, so I'd be really interesting to learn more.
On hip throws in MMA, they only really ever happen when up against the wall because literally all you need to do to avoid them is get your hips back. Without clothes to grab on to, it’s pretty hard to toss someone who knows you’re trying to do it. On the wall, there isn’t really room to get that space between the two fighters’ hips. It’s good to know how to do, but super niche and risks giving up your back.
Do you watch a lot of MMA? The overwhelming majority of wrestling these days end up against the wall. Its the opposite of niche, its a whole game winning aspect of MMA, and teh sort of shit that the Dagestanis have become amazing with. Small shock that said Dagestanis are great judoka.
@@TheNEOverse yes, I watch tons of it. And even most wall wrestling still involves shooting in on the legs. And the Dagestanis are wrestlers. They use very little Judo or even Sambo in the cage (Islam doing the most). It’s a risky move because you’re not getting kuzushi with someone leaned against the cage and there’s a risk of giving up your back. The right circumstances have to line up to hit these things without the gi and it’s always gonna be lower percentage than a single leg, double leg, knee pick, etc. I call that the definition of niche. I’m not saying it’s ineffective, I’m saying there are very few circumstances where a hip toss is a better option than something higher percentage and safer.
@@CaPnBaLlBaG The Dagestanis are MMA fighters, with skill in wrestling as well as Judo. They also hit a lot of inside trips and sweeps all the time from there, moves that aren't especially prominent in wrestling the way they are in Judo and Sambo. I don't necessarily care about hip throws, I'm talking holistically. Judo offers more than hip throws.
@@TheNEOverse my comment was specifically about hip throws. I’m well aware of foot sweeps and trips (which are even less common in MMA than the hip throws) but those are also wrestling moves. They’re also insanely hard to hit against a sweaty opponent with no clothes to grab. There isn’t a lot of Judo in MMA because it simply doesn’t work as well without the gi. Now we can argue which moves belong to Judo and which belong to wrestling and whether or not gi grips vs underhooks are the defining trait, but I don’t think it matters in the broader argument because it’s just not anywhere near as effective in the cage as wrestling. I don’t know why Judoka just can’t let it go and move on. Every other martial arts takes their criticism on the chin and laughs about it. But for some reason, online Judoka are literally incapable of accepting any criticism of their martial art. It’s honestly holding Judo back. Imagine how much the quality of Judo would improve if judoka started saying “Yeah, maybe we do rely too much on the gi, let’s see if we can translate our moves to a nogi style and experiment like BJJ did”.
@@CaPnBaLlBaG Because we do, and we have gone into MMA and done the judo moves but then guys like you will just go and say 'that's just wrestling actually'. I think wrestling is ultimately more suited to MMA because its no gi, but that is not to say Judo can't be used either, or even cross trained with wrestling to be good. MMAists cross train in the end, why isn't Judo allowed to do the same?
me: *Quietly waiting for the Kendrick-Drake level Beef between Armchair Violence and Chadi. (Note* I havent watched this video yet, and i agree with Armchair [his govt. name] >%90 of the time. I suspect this will fall into the
Honestly, most of the time even a t-shirt is enough to get the right grip for 80% of the techniques. Apparently he lives in an area where people go around naked all of the time
See I think the issue is that people end up falling into the trap of trying to argue the wrong point either because they are delusional about their style's capability or they unknowingly accepting the premise that "the best martial art" is the one that could beat up all other martial artists. I'll admit that I am a Taekwondo guy, I also admit that it's not the most efficient, it's not good for self defense, it doesn't even have the best strikes. However I don't consider what the best martial art is to be the one that can beat up all other martial artists best is subjective, I think Taekwondo is the best for me specifically because I like kicking, it keeps me active, gives me discipline and structure. I also live in Canada in a quite safe part of the world so I don't expect I will ever have to use it in self defense and even if I do the chances that the person I end up needing to use it against has any sort of training is unlikely. Like yeah if I go against someone who has a wrestling background, a mma background, or even a boxing background I'm going to be in trouble but I'm also going to be equally in trouble of I am going against someone who has a knife or a gun too and that's a lot more likely. I mean if you want to consider what is best as who would win in some sort of chaotic bare-knuckle brawl to the death apocalyptic scenario but realistically even MMA has rules which go out the windows in a street fight. You think I won't soccer kick a downed attacker in a street fight? You don't think I'll gouge their eyes or kick them in the balls? Best is what works to achieve your goals, if you want to be able to beat anyone in hand-to-hand combat Taekwondo is definitely not your best choice, if you want something that helps keep you in shape and gives you a taste of combat while minimizing the odds of ending up in the hospital Taekwondo isn't a bad choice.
@@RaveyDavey Yeah that's my point exactly. Taekwondo isn't a detriment to my realistic self defense scenario but I also am self-aware enough to know that not all of the techniques we practice are viable options in a realistic scenario, particularly the excessive bouncing (no point in tiring yourself out but the bouncing is more of a way for us to train to be light on our feet). Also the fact that I am at least somewhat used to being punched or kicked even if we are restrained by rules makes me more prepared than most people are for a fight, as the saying goes everyone is real tough until they get hit in the face and then you will find out if they have the fighting spirit. I mean sure Taekwondo isn't the best for self defense or street fights but it's not the worst and it's good enough for me as far as efficacy goes while also not making me wake up every morning with my entire body hurting from years of going toe to toe with people to turn myself into a warrior. I'm fine with just being a guy who can kick real hard I don't need to be a warrior :P
@@graciederangementsyndrome3669 judo is just not practical for MMA. Not enough groundwork and takedowns are too reliant on grips. Hip throws and foot sweeps are too low percentage. Wrestling and BJJ is just too practical not to train. Why spend 10 years in Judo when you could just do 3 years of another combat sport
@@Gunnar-Peterson Exactly. Another problem with throws is the set up. Getting the grips from the upper body tends to be risky because you have to close the gap in direct striking range. After bypassing the striking range, you then have to establish a cinched grip and not lose it so that's more than one step plus you can get badly countered when trying for the throw. Wrestling on the other hand makes you change your levels and immediately go for the legs so it's safer from getting struck and it's faster to get the takedown. As for groundwork, Judo fanboys seriously think citing Kosen Judo is proof of Judo's groundwork lmao. Almost nobody does Kosen Judo since it's relegated exclusively in a handful of Japanese universities and it's inaccessible to the public. On top of that, BJJ has a larger pool of talent and participants globally and it's constantly evolving while Kosen has an extremely tiny pool of competitors in Japan only and declined since WW2. The video is about Judo that's practiced globally, not some niche ruleset.
It seems like half the comments are "You don't know anything about Judo! 😡" and the other half are "Yeah, I did Judo for years and it definitely sucks. 😮💨"
Fight! Fight! Fight!
Your next video has to be "Which style of wrestling (freestyle, Greco, or folk style) is the strongest
@@ifyouseekay1000this is kinda already addressed in the “is greco roman the best for mma” video
@@Sbv-25 I'm new to the channel, so I didn't realize he already made a video. Thanks for the info
You found some really niche examples to prove your point. Even the street portion is cringe - I’ve seen people get KOed on mats, it can happen. You don’t understand that in high level judo you NEED more rotation which often means rotating your head leading to you ending up in bottom. Yet Travis stevens and other even amateur judoka can modify their throws to end up on top position . I’ve done it in BJJ fairly easily.
Your video is almost like someone assuming every BJJ player pulls guard.
Do you think we are going to follow Olympic rules outside of a club? And yeah I would wager you would get hip tossed by judo players even if you think you know how to fight tbh. Literally I’ve hit hip tosses on BJJ players easily. Not my go to but to make it sound like it works only on ppl who suck is silly.
Again it’s basically like when ppl assume a BJJ guy is gonna pull guard and NEVER strike with his opponent or only seek to sweep off his back. This is the first time I’ve heard someone say judo is bad for self defense…you’re assuming a lot here buddy and it comes across as arrogant as hell
i love watching judo... but let me tell you in real life you pull that sht out and im taking you to the ground with me and then you going to go to sleep.
My biggest criticism of wrestling is this: it’s largely unavailable for adults. If you’re lucky enough to have wrestling classes at your gym, that’s fantastic, but outside that is pretty much only available to scholastic athletes.
Just get a gf. Practice every night.
@@av1204 🤣 I’m married so definitely not getting as much practice as I’d like
MMA gyms have wrestling programs
I got to say that judo and BJJ have been much better than wrestling in the marketing department however in the western world wrestling does not care about marketing or promoting itself to hobbyists and nor has it had much of a reason to have to care about marketing itself and catering to hobbyists.As long as wrestling remains present in the scholastic system it doesn't have to worry about marketing or going anywhere.
@@GaryNac I still think its kinda interesting that such purists as the wrestlers are they dont back down from going into other combat sports historically.
Judo is a absurdly big sport but they going into other styles as high level Judokas is almost unheard of.
Bro has never been Judo chopped and it shows
Tegatana ate waza
@@SoldierDrew Man I really liked Waza, can't believe he got eaten by Tegatana
Judo chopped? We never learned striking techniques in judo
@@CoffeeManiaTV exists but only in a self defense kata for 4th degree blackbelts, some schools teach it, but they are not really good, because we can't use it in sparring, it is at most a theoric exercise
@@RaveyDavey Nah, "Judo chop" was used a lot back in the 1970's, probably because people were far less knowledgeable about Asian martial arts. iirc, the term was used in one of James Coburn's Flint movies in the late 60's.
the IJF and its consequences have been a disaster for Judo
The IJF merely exacerbated exciting problems with judo as a fighting system.
@@gudea5207 The only problem Judo has a a martial art is the recent-ish ban in leg takedowns.
Sambo is seen as a really strong base in MMA but like 10 years ago the primary difference between the two sports is that Judo has chokes and Sambo has leglocks. So really, every career Sambist also more likely happens to be a career Judoka as Judo is the sport that gives money in those countries so atheltes are encouraged to crosstrain.
Thank God we already have Judo with no IJF influence, it's called Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and it definitely doesn't suck.
@@Nobody-kp5nc Nah, that one kinda went a bit too far on the Newaza focus and kinda lost all focus on takedowns.
Russian-flavored Judo, Sambo, is more accurate to the "art" than the brazilian one.
The IJF leg grab ban revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the Judoka race
Meet me on the Judo range .... and bring your Aikido rifle.
He gonna bring his Wrestling Machine Gun
Can I wear my Krav Maga groin protector and bring my gopher chucks?
Heyyyy, an agent from harm reference. Skeet kendo
@@grimscribe6454 I knew someone would recognize it :)
Bring your boxing guns
Judo guy here, it depends where you train. We always train to throw and finish with a submission because you're never guaranteed the point. Half our class time is newaza so we're quite good with transitioning to ground work. Also, top 5 submissions in MMA are all judo techniques.
Exactly! People hate on judo because it's real... judo is jiu-jitsu and it's been proven on the battle field. Judo is a a martial art and a sport and People fail to understand that.
I am a Brown Belt in BJJ and a very competitive Judo clubbed opened up in my gym. I watch them train sometimes and they are some tough dudes. I wanted to join (I’m closing in on 50) and didn’t think my body could handle it but I saw a lot of nice transitions
Exactly it varies club to club person to person.
I’ve seen Judo blue belts rag doll and pin BJJ black belts. This guy should really try Judo or talk with someone like Shintaro. Seems like his entire knowledge base came from r/martialarts comments
@@Initium1000 I'm 48 this year and it's certainly not easy on the body. I still compete though and absolutely love it
"Armchair" knowledge!
Edit: Why Olympic Judo sucks
Kosen Judo has entered the chat?
I was looking for this, Olympic Judo it's not Judo anymore
@@GON22Ahonestly it gets hate just like karate people don’t understand it
99.999% of the Judo clubs in any given area are going to be teaching "Olympic Judo"
@@CaPnBaLlBaG That's not the case in my area.
I am a judo black belt and think you are mostly right, a little blunt, but right. Judo is not the competition ruleset but i can't deny the negative influence of the ruleset, my teacher (or sensei as we like to call it) taught me the importance of a good standing to ground transition, but if you want to win in the IJF ruleset you almost can't do it right. Now what am i doing to be a better judoka? i am cross training with bjj, bjj have what judo lost, judo have what bjj lost, maybe is not the optimal way, but in my country, wrestling is almost nonexistent, and i started at judo so that's my path of learning, and always is there the why i do what i do, i am not seeking an mma career and love the judo and Japanese martial arts culture. I love your channel and i think you are a smart guy with a clever opinion. (English is not my native language, i hope i was able to express my opinions correctly)
The thing about BJJ having what Judo lost and Judo having what BJJ lost was brilliant. Couldn't agree more and it sounds like you are making the most of your situation. I am a MMA guy who loves karate and does a lot of extra flexibility training, karate kicking drills, and just using whatever concepts I can add to my game bc karate has never really been big around my area. I try not to rely on "tricks" too much but for example being able to pop your lead round kick out like a jab is a different look for a lot of ppl.
I avoided judo because I met a girl, ex national champion, that at 18 was already on a wheelchair because of the ijf rules. Her favorite technique was a drop seoi nage and she blew out both knees. I shat myself after talking with her, in older judo drop seoi nage weren't that popular or important
@@giorgiociaravolol1998 I did drop seoi nage sometimes. I think maybe she jump to her knees. I've seen some judokas do that and it's obviously not so good for your knees. However, if you do it right I don't think it's a dangerous throw.
@@giorgiociaravolol1998 is really difficult to break your knees doing drop seoi, unless you jump to gain momentum, but that is irresponsable at best, in that case you jump to fall with all your weight and some of your opponent weight over the knees. It is true that you can have injuries for overusing some risky techniques, but i think that is true for any sport. Nevertheless, i can't say anything concrete without knowing the exact situation, and it is always sad when that happens. In any case i don't believe it was a problem with the IJF rules.
i feel you. i have a black belt in both Judo and BJJ, but i've also worked in bars for 20+ years. I've managed to get into and out of more altercations with genuinely aggressive persons than most people ever will. is judo perfect absolutely not. but is it as bad as made out here. no not at all. the ability to control the takedown is a big thing dropping someone on their back or side while still being able to disengage is a huge plus to judo vs. wrestling. wrestlers will absolutely take you down. but they are down with you. just my educated opinion though. but i absolutely agree with the analysis of what judo has lost and what BJJ in my opinion never had. train your standup like judo but use grips closer to wrestling, use the submissions from BJJ but keep your top game closer to wrestling and judo. it will take you far
Fedor has done judo since he was 11 years old tho.
Yes he did Sambo also, because both martial arts are basically the same, but that doesn't discredit all his Judo training. You don't get to the top of a country in Judo, specially one as competitive in the sport as Russia without a LOT of training in that martial art. The dude is NOT an olympian only because he lost to the dude who would go on to represent Russia in the olympics (just google Alexander Mikhaylin and Tamerlan Tmenov to see the kind of competition Fedor faced). That's when he trasitioned into MMA.
And don't mentiom Combat Sambo, Combat Sambo became a thing around the time where Fedor entered MMA.
If you actually read up on him, he’s mainly judo, and only entered Combat Sambo after MMA. He’s a judo man through and through.
So if he were a pure Judo guy he'd still have gaps in his skills due to the fact that he was training for the Olympics and would never learn stuff that wins in an MMA ruleset.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD No one is saying that a pure judo man is going to do well in MMA though.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD There is no pure guy in MMA anymore.
"Combat Sambo became a thing around the time where Fedor entered MMA." lol it was around since the 50s for the military
All good points here. However, i will contend the 4th degree "black belt" losing to the white belt bjj player; that's an exception, i can assure you, as someone who trains both
Not an exception but the quality of ne waza is very inconsistent. I have rolled in ne waza only rounds with perfectly good black belts that are excellent in tachi waza and some of them feel like one stripe white belts.
Dude. That should NEVER happen. U would never see a BJJ black belt lose to a WB like that.
@@phobowlyou would if they competed in Judo 🤷♂️ I've seen high level BJJ practicioners get foot sweeped, hip tossed and even fireman's carried by Judo yellow and orange belts.
@@jc-kj8yc @phobowl yeah i've seen both. White belts tap Judo black belts easily in newaza or BJJ, likewise low grade Judoka beat BJJ black in Judo rules - just a regular trip for the ippon. What amused me in both scenarios is neither losing player had any fight IQ. The judoka made no effort to stay out of basic closed guard traps and was doing dumb shit like trying to choke them in their guard. Likewise the BJJ guy didn't have a gripping strategy and should have used sacrifice throws.
I was a judo brown belt when I started bjj and I did pretty well. I also did prefer ground work.
Okay, my eyebrows raised when I saw the title of the video and then after watching it realize it's basically when Judo is taken as a sport and not combined with any other sort of art. On that, I'll definitely agree.
The following relates my own personal experiences and may not represent the wider audience as a whole. I originally started studying Karate, BJJ, and Muay Thai back in 2001. Over the years I have studied or dabbled in close to a dozen different martial arts and have a fairly wide background but without necessarily gaining any expertise in any single art.
I have previously worked as a Reserve Police Officer in the Midwest and a tactical security team supervisor on the Las Vegas Strip. I won't be the guy that claims to have been in dozens of streetfights, but I have on occasion been in physical altercations. A couple of years ago I started doing some critical thinking about those actual, real life encounters I've been in and came to the realization that not once have I ever punched, kicked, choked, or submitted anyone. Not that there's *never* a time to punch, kick, or submit someone, I just never have. I've never used ANY of the Karate, BJJ, Muay Thai, or most of the martial arts I've studied.
What I *have* used in real life encounters is wrestling, Judo, and Hapkido (wrist and joint locks for pain compliance). I've never used a single or double leg takedown to put someone on the ground, however I *have* used judo style hip throws (despite the suspect not wearing a gi, jacket, or other analogue). I have also used Hapkido style arm bars to put people on the ground. This has been my own personal experience, and largely why I've shifted away from studying BJJ or Muay Thai. I've simply never used them.
I thought about why this is and concluded that it has to do with rule set and win condition. In any situation, there's a rule set and a win condition. The moves which are most effective at accomplishing the win condition are going to rise to the top. In MMA, with their win condition (usually KO or submission) and rule set (varies somewhat based on venue) strike based arts and BJJ/wrestling style grappling are the most effective. Hence why most winners have those backgrounds.
In a "streetfight" where there are "no rules" (there are, it's called the law, learn it). Those styles often are the most effective again.
However in a *self defense* situation there's a different rule set and win condition. The bad guy has the win condition of taking your stuff or hurting you without getting caught. The victim has the win condition of getting away safely without any injury or loss of property. In that case with different win conditions different moves will rise to the top (hint: if you're the victim your best bet is firearms training).
For law enforcement/security, the bad guy has the win condition of getting away and generally doesn't have to or try to comply with laws regarding use of force. LEO/Security has the win condition of getting the bad guy in cuffs with as minimal injury to the suspect as possible and has to comply with law. Generally speaking, MMA *isn't* a good first option for that (if I'm getting my butt kicked then it's a different story, that's the second option and I'm more than happy to fall back on it if necessary).
For me, wrestling, Judo, and Hapkido have been the arts that I've found most effective at accomplishing my win condition reliably.
Very interesting take especially the emphasis on win condition which makes sense. My two pence, in a self defence situation, where the win condition you described is to get away safely without injury or loss of property, and granted victim doesn’t/cannot have firearm training, is to train boxing and either judo/wrestling (granted a person is able to do two sports at one time, and get decent at each)
I found your victory conditions analysis cogent.
Also, people forget that MMA fights are fair fights. You know that you are fighting one person ONLY, with a similar size, skill set and experience.
This is maybe the most thoughtful and intelligent comment on martial arts training and modern American violence I’ve seen on the internet. The concept of “win condition” is fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
I agree with most of it. The Olympic ruleset is garbage and it heavily influences the way Judo is practiced in most gyms. A few points of disagreement:
1. Knowing how to deal with other people grabbing your clothing is just as important as using clothing offensively. A competitive Judo player has the instincts to immediately block, break, and nullify grips on clothing and it's one of very few sports where this skillset is trained.
2. You don't need a winter jacket to throw or choke someone, nor does it have to be unzipped. A t-shirt, dress shirt, or sweater will suffice for a throw or choke. The gi is used in training so that people don't have to buy 10,000 t-shirts.
3. Clothing changes the grappling game. The reason Japanese Judo players never invested much time in double legs and single legs, for example, is because grip fighting and gi grips massively diminish the effectiveness of those attacks. The proof of this is that in sport Sambo today, where leg attacks are still legal and there are plenty of skilled wrestlers competing, leg attacks still don't dominate the highest-scoring techniques. Foot sweeps, arm throws, and hip throws are well-represented among high-scoring techniques because they are effective techniques when people are wearing clothing.
If you live in a beach town where everyone in wearing swimwear all day, fair enough. Folkstyle wrestling will be more realistic. If you live where most of the people in the world live, getting some experience grappling with clothing is a good idea.
youre making such valid points!
1) i have seen wrestlers getting entangled in gi grips not knowing how to break free of of them
2) absolutely - i also found his point on "collar grabs" on an unzipped jacket a bit cheap. its not about collars, i think he said this due to lack of experience.
Although id say a winterjacket works better than a t shirt ;-)
3) This is such a good point. One could add that the judo double legs arent as technical as the wrestlers DL (penetrating, driving, cutting the corner , engles etc) even when leg grabbing is allowed. alot of guys in my dojo were deep into my legs and wouldnt finish, because they didnt understand the technique well enough.
I would like Judo Guys to learn a basic double leg "module" with 3-4 options on how to deal with a sprawl , cutting corners, climb up to clinch etc.
The "threat" of a double leg changes the dynamic and even IF one stuffes your double leg with stiff arming etc. it creates opportunities, sometimes leading to him having "emergency grips" giving you the advantage.
4) I would like to add the magic of foot sweeps. an important part of judo is IMO that its not just wrestling with a gi. it is "maximum efficiency minimum effort" based. and it is possible to throw and take down much bigger opponents with little effort (IF done correctly)
i am not sure if wrestling offers that.
He even said in the video - that some guys are to big for him to double leg
"You don't need a winter jacket to throw or choke someone, nor does it have to be unzipped. A t-shirt, dress shirt, or sweater will suffice for a throw or choke."
No it won't, unless your shirts and tshirts are made of adamantium. Most tshirts tear before they could be used offensively. There's a reason gis are as thick as they are.
"Clothing changes the grappling game. The reason Japanese Judo players never invested much time in double legs and single legs, for example, is because grip fighting and gi grips massively diminish the effectiveness of those attacks."
It's 100% the other way around. Generally speaking tangling is gonna be a much smaller issue the more clothing you add, and restriction of your own movement and getting a grip on the opponent will be a far bigger issue. As such grabbing a large body part, like a double leg, will be much easier than grabbing a shirt collar or whatnot.
Why on EARTH do you think most 1:1 street fights go to the ground, and people don't engage in grip fighting? Because unless you have hydraulic clamps for hands, you're not going to be able to hold onto someone's wrist or lapel; but tackling someone is always going to be an option. Grapping their leg, or getting an underhook is always going to work.
"The proof of this is that in sport Sambo today, where leg attacks are still legal and there are plenty of skilled wrestlers competing, leg attacks still don't dominate the highest-scoring techniques."
You're making the mistake of attributing effectiveness to certain techniques because they work in ANOTHER sanitized, sporterized environment for points, dressed in uniforms designed for throws, as opposed to evaluating those techniques in a neutral environment with real stakes.
" Foot sweeps, arm throws, and hip throws are well-represented among high-scoring techniques because they are effective"
You said it yourself. "HIGH SCORING". They are represented because you get points for it. Not because they work.
And can you stop equating gis with "clothing"? Gis have MASSIVE amounts of drag, especially due to the amount of sweat that build up. Even the most basic jacket has a lining made of either some type of organic or synthetic fur, some fine polymer fabric, or felt. None of which have the drag of pure heavy cotton. Not to mention you put on a tshirt, then a sweater, than a coat.
Those clothing items are also rarely secured around the waist. You can try throwing someone by their sweater, and you might just end up pulling it off of their body. It's called a "pullover" for a reason.
@@horvathbenedek3596 ruclips.net/user/shortsDXiIwBQeWZs
@@horvathbenedek3596 ruclips.net/video/RI1UX9O3fq0/видео.html
@@horvathbenedek3596 Search for a video called JUDO AS SELF DEFENCE IN STREET FIGHTS. You will see 10 people doing high-amplitude throws with t-shirts. watch?v=RI1UX9O3fq0
Judo doesn't suck on the street because it's your mom job 💀💀💀💀
wtf lol
Judo doesn't work on the street, because that's your mom's job.
@@OldSchopenhauerDang, that one's also good!
"You know why **insert martial art** doesn't work on the street? Because your mom already works that block!"
Competition is an important aspect of capitalism and can lead to lower prices, higher quality products and services, greater variety, more innovation and better productivity
@@freehand.underhandsure
12:26 Judo does teach you to follow them to the ground though, as a Judo practitioner (at least at my club), it's drilled into us to never let go of our opponent after throwing them so we can immediately follow with a holdown/armlock/stranglehold etc.
Most the problems with Judo pointed out in this video are a result of olympic Judo rule sets, olympic Judo is not all Judo. Go back even just a few years to back when leg grabs were still allowed and already it's much more viable. The problem is the rule sets, not the martial art itself.
He does talk about this in the video though
@@theseeker7692 No he really doesn't talk about this in the video. This guy was only bringing up that one example, there are many others which is OPs point. Only a m0r0n would think Olympic rules are even Judo. That's like saying Olympic fencing is HEMA or actual fencing or how a sword fight looks. It isn't it doesn't even resemble a sword fight and in actual fact would for sure get you killed doing that even if you got the person.
Oh btw most Judo throws aren't hip throws which was a sole focus on the video for some reason. OFC wrestling is better but wrestling is better than everything period. Wrestling is the best non weapons based MA there is and its always been that way. You see wrestling from the Ancient Greeks/Persians to Medieval Knights. Its always the best supplement.
Yeah. After you throw, if the person lands on their stomach, you can go to Newaza, which will continue until someone gets sub, pind, or progression stops. I don't know how he could have missed such a major rule.
Chael Sonnen said Judo sucks, there's videos of him getting rag dolled by judokas, it's kinda funny actually
Good critique of modern Judo and its rulesets. But not even close to a fair assessment of the art overall and its' applicability/history/track record as a fighting system.
Judo is class, and going by this guys stand up grappling footage he's throwing stones from a glass house. Russian wrestlers cross train judo for a reason, he wouldnt know this though cause hes no where near that level.He's just clickbaiting , clout and views
Been do bjj +10yrs just started judo love it.. watched my bjj 3dgree 300lb instructor get effortlessly repeatedly thrown by a 175lb brown belt judoka ... if he didn't know how to take a fall and it was concrete he wouldn't get up...
my judo instructor did the same to me without his hands 😁 (an osotogari using his leg and shoulder. I flew 10 feet away. I am almost 200 pounds.)
I do Judo. You did your research well, forgot a couple of things though.
1. Very few Judokas give a shit about MMA, myself included, so I'm not arguing with your points there.
2. I don't know if you've ever been in a street fight, but strength and stamina come before technique and Judokas are in general very strong, very explosive and have the grip strength of a chimp (thanks to the Gi). Obviously wrestlers are as well.
And when it comes to techniques, there are sooo many that do not require a Gi and some of them are even useful against double/single leg takedowns. Just to list a few off the top of my head.
- Koshi Guruma, - Kosoto Gari, - Osoto Gari, - Ura Nage, - Tani Otoshi, - Sumi Gaeshi, - Soto Makikkomi, - Tai Otoshi, - Sasae, - Hadaka Jime, - Juji Gatame
There are more. I get that you wanted to ruffle some feathers, but to think that a Judoka would do pure, rule-compliant Judo in a street fight is a bit idiotic.
I think the idea is "if they could, they would" when it comes to what is allowed in the limited ruleset.
Like the amount of Judoka who turtle and *BOTH* competitors look at the ref to subtly say: "You gonna stand us up or what?"
Judo (at least Kadokan Judo does) teaches how to attack a tight turtle and get turnovers to continue on the mat, yet they don't even bother in competition to even try?
So it is VERY fair to say that Judoka that are only taught rule compliant Judo are only going to do rule compliant Judo.
Side note: Some of the throws you mention to "counter a double/single leg takedown" are very strange picks.
Some of them can work, like the sacrifice throws, but osoto-gari? What? That is beyond silly.
To get osoto from a single leg attempt requires that their single leg attempt was so unbearably bad (they loosely have your leg and are not driving forward to take you down) that you are able to get the reap necessary to accomplish osoto gari.
Tai Otoshi is a strange pick as well for the same reasons.
Uchi-mata, uki goshi, hane-goshi, harai goshi, even in no Gi are way better picks since they are playing under the sane and logical idea that Uke's momentum is going towards you (because they are *trying* to take you down) and that they are actively picking up your leg making it tough/impossible to put down your leg for tai otoshi/reach your leg to reap for Osoto-gari.
But even then that is a tough sell because if they are moving you around and not letting you be stable then the attempt becomes very hard/impossible.
@@AGuy-s5v Sorry, I was just listing generally street-useful stuff, the stuff I would probably rely on. When it comes to leg takedowns, I guess only Sumi Gaeshi would make sense of the ones I listed.
@@tugbandi I didn't even mention that you stated a back choke (hadaka Jime) and a joint lock (Juji Gatame) as ways to counter a single leg takedown.
Which is even more strange, imho.
Like.. Juji doesn't make much sense in the case of a double leg takedown, single leg is more plausible, but even still.
And then Hadaka Jime (rear strangle) requires you to be on Uke's back, not sqaure with Uke as he grabs your leg and takes you down.
Are you doing alright?
Or perhaps you're a kyu grade below san-ni-ii kyu?
I mean number 2 is true for any decent martial art (except for the grip strength, that's not really a thing for strikers)
I think point 2 is pretty pointless, pretty much any one who works out and does most martial arts will be strong. This point could be made about anyone practicing any grappling art especially. If the point is that its better to train judo than to not train at all, then this mentioned in the video, he stated it could work on a street fight and that if you are fighting anyone untrained then you will likely win.
Honestly an interesting perspective, i do think that when ranked as a complete fighting art its lacking, its appeal to me is kinda like hema, putting into practice these old ways of using a weapon (like someones jacket) in a fight. But honestly as a judoka i do have to say, the point about an ippon not necessarily ending the fight is really fair, even when i get hurt in judo i usually dont start to really feel it until the adrenaline’s gone down
You said some things that are incorrect.
-Judo does not need a jacket. Plenty of judo throws are done in no gi, MMA and submission matches.
-Judos system does do singles or doubles, leg grabs are part of the curriculum it’s just not part of the sport element.
- Judo does not only have arm locks they have chokes and guard play and transitions, it’s again just less a focus in competition.
-you do not inherently land in bad positions. Just like a boxer can over extend a punch or drop his gaurd, Muy Thai guy miss timed a kick and get swept, a wrestler can scramble and end up in a bad position, BJJ guy go for a bad submission and get reversed… this doesn’t mean that’s the standard it just happens.
- just like there are videos of judo guys losing to BJJ and wrestling there are videos of the opposite as well.
Measuring Judos success as an art through how well it does in MMA is narrow sighted. It is, a takedown art, doesn’t advertise itself as the most elite finishing art.
Judos fight concept came from the battlefield, you throw some one down to the ground, with a potential fight ending throw, and then the samurai would finish with a short sword. This historical aspect was preserved and what you see in Judo competitions is simply the sports application . The idea was not to be wrapped up or wrestle it to the ground spending unnecessary time there that could get you killed. This concept of not spending too much time on the ground is still understood in Military combatives. It also gives perspective for those who practice Judo.
I wrestled done some jiu jitsu and Judo. It’s always mma or wrestling purist that feel this need to discredit Judo as if recognizing its legitimacy some how takes away from their art and that’s not the case. It’s got some amazing throws and probably the best system for learning foot sweeps. If you don’t care about those things and care to spend more time wrestling and submissions so be it. To each their own.
You’ve highlighted the problem. It’s a takedown art if it isn’t a finishing art in MMA how are you expected to incapacitate an assailant in a self defense scenario.
Another possible "downside" of judo is that people assume that everywhere that a fight will start there will be concrete ground, but that is not always the case, many fights end up in grass or sand or other soft ground places where the effectiveness of a thrown is basically nullified.
What you call judo's "no gi throws" don't actually come from judo, but from greco-roman wrestling.
In fact, judo has next to nothing unique besides some clothes grips (as the concept of using the opponent's clothing existed way before judo), and some submissions, Kimura's holds in particular. Everything else was taken from other disciplines.
@@na-ky8ou I have no idea what your point is? Many styles if not all arts have overlap and borrow. It doesn’t mean a Judo guys style is now Greco because he took his gi off. Or that his knowledge is some how void because the root art of the move exist in other proficiencies? That would be like saying a Muy thai guys strikes couldn’t be Muy Thai as boxing is older than Muy Thai…
Because not everything that isn't effective in MMA isn't automatic ineffective in a street fight because of it. You're assuming the person you're fighting on the street is skilled enough in the sport of MMA to neutralize a judokas takedown. In all reality that probably isn't the case
So, a note about NAIA. NAIA is pretty close to D 3 but when it comes to wrestling compared to sports like football and basketball the skill gap between athletes is actually smaller between the divisions. I would argue D 2 is more comparable for wrestling because you can get athletic scholarships in NAIA giving them a better pool of talent. In fact a D1 multi-time champion was beat by an NAIA champion not too long ago a few years back. The major difference is how often the divisions meet and how many resources are available to keep athletes training year round.
I have no idea what you just said but it sounds important.
I always laugh when this comes up because Nicky Rod the best example of wrestling working in ADCC/ BJJ was D3 and far surpassed much "better" wrestlers.
Ive been in this Dennys parking lot for 2 hours now. Starting to think he might not show up.
Did he show up?
High risk, unrealistic attacks are common in combat sports.TKD’s head kicks come immediately to mind. Even if the kick had no power and the assailant falls down after, he gets the points. The infamous BJJ butt scooting is defensive, but equally dumb. Is your complaint about the sport and its rules? Or that it’s not a real fight? Do you need to see someone slash someone with a broken bottle or bash their head on pavement to be satisfied? It’s a sport. It’s all just aggressive tag. At the end of the day there are only really 3 martial arts: striking, wrestling and weapons, including firearms. The rest is just style and teaching methods.
"Is your complaint about the sport and its rules?" Obviously the answer is yes.
@@AirLancer I get that. But again, they all have rule sets that serve to 1) make them more athletic (more points for low percentage techniques), 2) make them safer (no eye gouging, biting, etc. and 3) differentiate them from other similar sports. Judo is focused on standing take downs to the exclusion of striking and ground wrestling. BJJ is focused on ground wrestling to the exclusion of standing takedowns and striking. Collegiate freestyle wrestling has no striking and no gi. TKD has blah blah blah. Judo is just wrestling with a particular rule set. You don’t have to like it or do it. If it’s bullshido, its reverence will fade with time, just as lots of martial arts did with the advent of MMA and UFC. At the same time, I didn’t have to watch this video or make a comment. 😉
The complaint is how far removed from reality the rules are as a simulation of combat. There are certainly equivalent complaints in all martial arts but for all its hype Judo is found wanting.
@@michakoguciuk497 I doubt the IJF are trying to do that. What people are trying to do is differentiate their style of martial art from other styles, when at their hearts all that is different is teaching methods, country of origin, and the individual. Take karate and kung fu. Many of those styles or schools have had reciprocal influence on each other. At the end of the day, a side kick is a side kick. So different competition rules and training methods are promoted. I know of several Judo and Suai Jiao guys who compete in Bokh or Mongolian wrestling, which has no weight classes and is a form of jacket wrestling. And so on. If the Olympics were more of an Open style, we would still find people training for competition versus civilian defense. 🤷♂️
@@michakoguciuk497 I hear that. But I don’t think any martial artist is confused about the difference between sport rules and no rules fighting. Hopefully, most of us will never have to experience that. These rule sets are about marketing as much as the other things I mentioned earlier. I understand the frustration though. We don’t want to feel like we are wasting our time or not being taught the “real” thing. But history shows that all of the styles that we are learning now have in many ways been altered in the past. In many ways that’s what Art is all about. And with the availability of information and schools, one can shop around until they find what they want to learn and even learn several arts and create their own personal style. 😊
I used to have the same mindset until my bjj coach forced me to train with judokas for a while… that humbled me down big time.
Maybe you should try it out yourself instead of let say… just talking about it? 😅
Gi it has purpose for Sambo and gi jiu-jitsu but for no gi in general your better off learning wrestling
Yeah, if you've never been thrown and pinned by an experienced Judoka you're in for a life changing experience. And all of the schools and Judo instructors I've met now all include no-gi, self-defense variations and sparring. The popularity of MMA and UFC has cross-pollinated a lot of influence into curriculum and training methodology in Judo and many other MA.
The point isn't that Judo is a bad martial art, it's that it's very limited beyond its own ruleset. Pure Judo doesn't transfer well to almost any other sport except BJJ because...uh...judo invented BJJ😅
If you had trained with karatekas they'd also have head kicked you 50 times in your first sparring class.
You'll always get humbled when you are untrained.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD Comparing striking arts to grappling arts is not a good argument.
One thing worth mentioning about "street fights" is just how many of them are either:
A. Drunken bar fights. And/or
B. Unofficial "honor duels", where someone feels insulted and wants to fight about it.
In the former, yeah, everything works. In the latter, a lot of people don't like grapplers on the whole. They wanna do fisticuffs. Bystanders (usually one or both guys' "boys") who would have let the fight go on for punches will intervene and separate clinches and ground fights, because it's "less honorable."
Maybe that's just my experience. But a lot of fights that don't involve multiple attackers or weapons are just about dudes who wanna puff their chest.
There's very few times in life where unarmed combat is actually the best course of action.
The bit about option B is as true as it is stupid.
Correct on both of your accounts, aye.
Depends where you live.
You can definitely add "attack by surprise", for robbery or just "for fun".
Great comment. Also, once the fight goes to the ground the spectators tend to lose interest. Sorry but grappling is not very entertaining if you don't know what you are watching. Watching two untrained fat rednecks grapple is sometimes comical but resembles an altercation between two drunk sea lions. Might as well break it up. Call it a draw and get back to drinking beer.
The reason that judoka tend to be under represented in MMA is because Judo has a separate track for high-level athletes, the Olympics. Within Judo, the Olympics is the goal, not UFC. So high levelled Udoka do not tend to cross train into MMA, they specialise into Judo for the Olympics.
There are plenty of former Olympians including gold medalists in the UFC from sports that are not Judo. These sports are also in no way feeders for budding mixed martial artists as they too desire for their own sports to succeed. We can quibble to the degree with which the IJF has praised MMA fighters with Judo backgrounds (the answer being not much) or the overlap of regions where both Judo and MMA at high level are popular but the fact is that judoka have mostly not succeeded at high levels in MMA excepting Ronda Rousey of course. Take Satoshi Ishii who is gold medalist olympian but has had middling success in second tier promotions. Plenty have tried and failed.
@@gudea5207 Most have tried and failed no matter the base art, that's how it works.
Consider that wrestling has the same Olympic track, but MMA is bursting with wrestlers.
@ArmchairViolence I'm not a judoka, but I have talked with some. There seems to be a cultural element in Judo against MMA. I doubt it is even a majority even though they seem to have considerable cultural power, but there appears to be an elitist element who see MMA as antithetical to Judo. Instead, they favor the Olympics. (The Olympics are where combat sports go to die, in my opinion.) That would explain the lack of cross-training that would make Judo a more practical art.
Judo is an isolationist martial art, everything is done in the Japanese way no matter where you are in the world.
If you have dedicated your life to the sport then you probably won’t cross train or compete in anything else, there are some exceptions but there is a much greater number of wrestlers that move into other areas of sport or entertainment ie football, movies, professional wrestling, mma.
Gable Stevenson has been in wwe and is now moving into football.
While high level judoka will most of the time stay completely isolated in Judo.
Also I do understand the criticism of how certain throws will leave you in a poor position if the match were to continue after the throw but that’s not the sport a big throw is the ideal way to win in judo that’s just the ruleset.
while in wrestling it’s about a second of hold time for a fall/pin that is ideal to win the match or you have to accumulate points while in contrast a pin in Judo is a 20 second hold to win the match that’s a way longer time to hold someone down than in wrestling and is not the easiest feat for grappling athlete.
Please make fair comparisons you can critique and have opinions but be fair in doing so if you want to be taken seriously.
Ok, Wrestling is the GOAT without a doubt. But I can't defend the actual Jiu-jitsu scene with this epidemic of guard pulling imposed on the art by the IBJJF rule set.
IBJJF is a plague on our houses
You have 2 complete fighting systems: MMA and Combat Sambo. Everything else is a specialism of a subset of those. Wrestling is the GOAT of takedowns, no question. BJJ is the GOAT of submissions easily. The biggest problem with Judo is that it's not the GOAT of anything.
MMA solves guard pulling, but it would be nice to just make them not pull guard by rules in bjj
@@ArmchairViolenceanother video idea bout guard pulling/butt scooting
@@pcprinciple3774 the GOAT of hiptrow with a gi, i know its very specific, but boxing is king with only 4 move....
Yoooooo! I've been waiting for this! Let's goo! I just started judo and am looking forward to learn why I'm wasting my time!
Enjoy sport and developing athleticism and explosivity my guy
Look up jflojudo
fedor did a ton of judo. he was kept out of the olympic team by tmenov who was a beast and took silver. insert the hand through the armpit until it emerges through the neck hole. form the grip there and you can hit turn throws on people in t shirts. on a zipped up jacket you just grip the armpit rather than the lapel. there's a lot of fail in this video but there's three right there.
What do you mean? Judo works great on the street. When I trip it keeps me from cracking my head open on the sidewalk.
Real world self-defence.
Especially if you live in an icy part of the world.
I quote you from one of your other videos, which was golden: 'You don't win with one move, you win with an interconnected web of moves that work together.
Just like Niko style.
Cuz Ohmas master said to him during his match, Niko told him that it would be pretty foolish not to follow up with another technique after performing his first technique. Point is, don’t stop after doing a counter, or an attack, or even a throw. Keep up the pressure and do your combos.
Its a problem I have with any shotokan karate instructor that teaches us self defence. If its not mannequin training or general bullshido, it'll be based off of point karate which nowadays is comparable to tag.
Which judo has. Lol. We are taught to constantly pursue the opponent, lose their balance and ultimately throw them. Which can take one or a series of steps.
"Always maintain the attitude of defeating the enemy with one strike." - Miyamoto Musashi [The Book of Five Rings]
"Your directness is what will enable you to succeed." - Miyamoto Musashi [The Book of Five Rings]
If the opponent is finished there's no need to continue, if he was not finished follow up with the next strike & finish him with that. When there are multiple opponents around, the other guys aren't gonna wait while you go 12345678 on one guy. The goal is to finish the opponent as quickly as possible, ideally with one decisive strike & get home safe.
"One motion & he's gone" - Bruce Lee
"There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare." - Sun Tzu [The Art of War]
@@jagger_claw Thank you for your insightful quotes from Miyamoto Musashi, Bruce Lee, and Sun Tzu. These masters indeed emphasize efficiency in combat.
I will answer to each quote but before that I want to say finishing with one move while ideal it rarely happens. we have decades of fighting well documented. and what percentage of those fights ended with one move?
1.Musashis'“Ken No Sen” (attacking the initiative) suggests not just a physical readiness to strike, but a mental and strategic preparation that anticipates and nullifies the opponent’s actions as part of a larger plan, not just a single strike.
2.Bruce Lee’s idea of “Be Water” similarly supports adaptability and fluidity in techniques, implying a fighter must adjust and flow through a series of techniques based on the opponent’s actions. This is more than just delivering one motion; it's about connecting movements in response to the dynamics of the fight.
3.Prolonged war is very different from finishing in one move.
prolonged engagements often drain resources and morale, suggesting a well-planned strategy that can include multiple maneuvers to ensure victory in any situation you may or may not end up.
Sun Tzu: "In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity." This quote points to the need to use a complex array of strategies to seize opportunities in the chaos.
An effective martial art is one that you pressure test going at or near 100% intensity. That is why the grappling arts prepare you for actual combat much better than most striking arts where you just don’t train that way. Judo has the rule set that it does for safety and to differentiate from other grappling arts and is the most popular grappling art in the world for a reason. To say it’s not effective is just plain wrong. Sambo and BJJ are judo with a different emphasis. All are good arts worth learning.
I'll keep it short, can't be bothered to write a thesis on every claim made.... well not on mobile phone at least.
1. Very true about rules deficiency of Judo - a good throw is not enough in fighting competitions. Although most of the throws on the concrete WILL end the fight, in mma that's just a single part of the skills needed, still a very important one, and I'll come back to that later.
2. Saying that judokas aren't prepared for scrambling that comes after the throw is just an asumption made by watching too many judokas competing in bjj matches. My judo school wasn't elite by any means, but approx. the third of the time we did ne-waza. Would I suck against bjj guy in bjj match - of course I would! But so would everybody else too.
BTW, at least we're willing to try ourselves in other grappling styles - how many bjj players have you seen entering a judo competition? 😅
3. Gi is a huge factor, of course - but lack of it is NOT a deciding one. Here's the inside info - we judokas always understood that, and have been cross-training in wrestling since the dawn of judo. We highly respect our leotard-wearing grappling brothers.
4. This one honestly surprised me in it's ignorance - saying that Fedor's takedown profficiency comes not from judo, but sambo instead is plain laughable. Sambo, unlike bjj, never hid that it came from judo. Fedor probably has thousands of takedowns during his career, and NONE of them came from shooting for the legs. When You see Fedor taking down a guy from a standing scramble - he's not doing sambo techniques - he's doing uchi-matas, kouchis, osotos and sasaes, ALL KODOKAN JUDO MOVES.
5. Saying that singles and doubles are the "safest" way of executing the takedown is also plain wrong. Look at the Dagestani crew and Khabib and Islam especialy. Sure, they shoot all the time, but what makes them extremely dangerous is that they could take an opponent down from clinch and body locks WITH CERTAINTY. Those sweet, sweet foot sweeps they do? Yep - judo. Mostly de-ashi barai and sasae tsurikomi ashi.
Most of us judokas perfectly understand that judo in it's wildest dreams could't be one-over-all martial art in mma, but hey - NO MARTIAL ART IS. What judo CAN bring to the mma though is versatility of the takedown game, a crucial part of the fight - Fedor, Parisian, Khabib and Islam already showed us how, we're just waiting for our John Danaher, a guy that will come up with a better, and more robust system of teaching judo, specialy for the no-gi application.
That would be it, and please forgive me for butchering English.
Sambo coming from Judo is largely immaterial. If we draw the sets Judo would be contained within Sambo's set because what matters is not parental lineage but knowledge gaps.
If your father is an electrical engineer who teaches you when you're a kid and when you go to college you pick software engineering, you'll have a wider knowledge base than your father. You're out here essentially pretending it's impossible to learn beyond what your father knows, as if Judo being the origin doesn't mean that knowledge gaps can be addressed and built upon.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD Ok, and what's the point? I was arguing his take that Fedor's takedowns come from Sambo, altough they're nothing more than Judo techniques adapted for no-gi application.
What tells me you're ignorant on all of this is that you, unironically, believe in the "can't throw without a gi" myth, or the "lapel grips" myth. A zipped up jacket still has a chest to grab, it still has a neck to grab, it still has sleeves.
My favourite part is when he's says judo throws are dangerous after showing a compilation of wrestling throws where they all land on there head.
Ok as an offended judoka that also trains bjj imma respond a bit lol
-Wrestling is obviusly better in mma so we agree on that
-Regarding the bjj vs judo, both can be good and both can equally suck depending on your school, if you dont train takedowns or almost dont train takedowns, you are just as fucked as a judoka who does not have any ground work. That being said, you don´t really need a lot of groundwork to submit most people, but taking people down consistently even if they are untrained does require more practice. Still, you need some ground work and some takedown ability
-Regarding the 1-)"you relly on a gi or a winter jacket" and the 2-)"you throw yourself as much a you throw the other guy".
1-) Judo at the highest levels does relly more on the gi because grip fighting becomes super important, that being said, most basic judo translate very easily to nogi and uses the same principles, so most people will fall against an osotogari or seoi nage without the gi, also people for some reason assume that we cant just grab a big chunk of cloth from your tshirt and throw you, nor grab your belt with a georgian grip and throw you, which we can.
2-)This is not the case, you do see high level judo competitors throwing theirselves with their opponents because there is no other way to throw another highly trained highly athletic individual (and even then it doesnt happen always), but when you have a skill difference even small is really easy to throw and keep yourself standing you see that a lot if you go to a judo dojo and see higher belts sparring colored ones.
I don't think its clear wrestling is better than judo in mma, I'm looking at the UFC specifically. Most judoka that went to the UFC actually fare pretty well, Karo Parisyan, Islam Mackhachev, Ronda Rousey, Kayla Harrison, etc. Wrestlers obviously do well too, I just don't think the sample size for Judo in MMA is large enough to make that call yet
1) It doesn’t translate as easy as you think. I know I have tried a lot of Judo throws in MMA sparring with very mixed success. Try and grab a t shirt and you will see you do not have anywhere near the same kind of leverage over someone’s body. Throws from georgian grip are rarely taught at your average dojo and when it is not well.
2) Yes this definitely is the case because I have been thrown by plenty of people better than me that roll with the momentum of the throw. Yes sometimes people remain standing but then that defeats the purpose of the throw to then follow up in me waza.
'if a higher belt spars a colored belt'. Yeah, if an teen throws a toddler I am sure they can remain standing too.
THIS 👆👆, the second point is really important, olympic level judo is not the standart judo
@@mimszanadunstedt441 ?
so? It is about skill not age
As a retired law enforcement officer, the last place I want to be in a street fight is on the ground. My goal is to get back onto my feet as fast as possible.
Came in offended
Left educated
what were the points you learned?:)
I don't get the point of this video.
A martial art is defined by its rule set. Judo, BJJ and wrestling are different because the rule sets are different. Do we want them all to end up like MMA? Is boxing overrated because you can't kick? Is Muay Thai overrated because there is no ground game?
Or are we evaluating them for self defense? These are sports. If you want to defend yourself, carry a knife or a gun.
Nothing but facts here.
You can shit on every style there is... or maybe learn from them instead and be the best you can be.
This is a bad faith comment. Everyone understands that Muay Thai has a gap in knowledge as they only do grappling standing and only do sweeps and limited throws. Boxers can do well in MMA by simply learning to deal with the low kick threat which is kryptonite for the pure boxer.
However, judokas aren't even the top grapplers in "no holds barred" grappling.
Boxers and Muay Thai fighters can win a MMA fight by points or KO using their pure art. Judokas basically need Sambo or wrestling to do it.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD There are almost no boxers or nak muays that can win an MMA fight using their pure art. You cannot name anyone of that description, and if you try then you've probably named a mixed martial artist.
A boxer literally has to get either kickboxing or muay thai training just to deal with kicks. Not to mention grappling training to save themselves against takedowns.
Wrestlers themselves learn BJJ and boxing in order to work. So do Samboists, who literally learn judo in order to enhance their standing clinch grappling alongside wrestling.
If you want to be good at MMA, you are doing MMA. Judo is not uniquely weak on its own- everything is.
It's pretty obvious that he talks about it's effectiveness in a fight. If you practice Judo or any martial art because you enjoy it as a sport, then this conversation doesn't concern you. But if you want to learn how to fight, then this guy brings a lot of good points on why Judo is a bad way to do so.
We can talk about martial arts being different from self defense and fighting but, at the end of day, every single one of them advertises itself as a way to learn how to defend yourself. They are called MARTIAL arts for a reason.
@@jimpavlidis5915 They were created at different times for different purposes and in different cultures. In modern times, the comparison is pointless because it always boils down to rule sets. In self defence, the rule set is nil. Carry a weapon.
Also, no one grinds a martial art for self defence. We could argue about the effectiveness for self defence given that you do it as a sport but that again is pointless and it certainly does not justify calling Judo useless or mediocre.
As a sincere response, I don't think you engaged with judo's curriculum. It seems like you had a conclusion and picked clips to justify it. You say they don't train to follow to the ground, but that's not true. You talk like all of the throws are hip throws, but very few are. MMA is most popular in America, where judo is least popular. The best judoka in Europe and Asia have no reason to go to MMA.
Ironically, following people to the ground is the only thing in this entire video that I relied on the world on an actual Judo black belt on. He was making the argument that Judo is better because it teaches take downs without teaching you to follow your opponent to the ground and get tangled up with them.
Certainly not all are hip throws, but that is easily what Judo is best known for, and it's the main thing that Judo can claim to be better at than other sports are
@@ArmchairViolence Better at foot sweeps, Reeps and sacrifice throws as well the other 3/4 of Judo you forgot. Wrestling is good at blasting doubles and singles and because they are so easy to do. They neglect alot of clinch work because it's a high skill ceiling skillset. As shown by Owen livsey winning the catch wrestling world championship as primarily a judoka that said he "doesn't use hip throws but the other 70% of judo"
Certainly you have the choice whether to follow to the ground. You learn to maintain control to transition into a favourable position for a pin or a submission. Regarding throws, looking at London Olympic stats as an example, the top 3 scoring throws for men were the Uchi Mata (inner thigh throw), Seoi Nage (back-carrying throw), and Harai Goshi (hip sweep throw). Hip throws are in there, but not the most common and other moves like Osoto Gari (big outside foot sweep) are more iconic. Most of your time is spent on combinations of foot sweeps or pulls to off-balance an opponent before you can attack with a throw, then pin or strangle them.
@@domwood3251 Owen Livsey didn't win a Catch wrestling world championship.
He won a Special Promotion match at the end of the championship against aging Josh Barnett (and he won by decision, not pin or submission) .
That match was solely for Promotion purposes.
To have famous names on the poster.
That's it.
It wasn't a part of the Championship bracket.
@@ArmchairViolence Said who? Read Kano's work before analysing the opinions of praticioners.
It is kind of crazy to think that judo sucks for self defense purpose, imo its better to know judo if you get attacked outdoor than to know bjj (and I do both and love both as much)
My case is that BJJ practicioner are overall bad at takedown (if they did not do wrestling), and that judo offers much better control standing up and more explosive reactions
The best mix for self defense is either muay or boxing + judo or wrestling
I would avoid going on the ground at all cost if I were attacked in the street
I wrestled in middle school and high school but stopped after graduating. I joined my university’s free judo club in my senior year of college because everything else was too expensive for me and it was certainly an interesting time. Questions about leg grabs would come up frequently, and every time the sensei would offer a different variation of a completely ridiculous made-up explanation of why they were “too dangerous.” Remaining silent and respectful during these discussions every day was a huge challenge for me. Finally, at an event where the team came together to watch Olympic judo footage, I pointed it out whenever judokas executed textbook double leg takedowns, which became increasingly common as the footage got closer to the year 2010. Finally, I got the sensei to admit that “The real reason they banned leg grabs was because the wrestlers joined and started winning everything, and the judo people got really pissed off.”
Not wrestlers, but rather Sambo practitioners. Before 2010, Russians and other Soviet republics were sweeping all the judo medals.
@@muhammadibnmusaal-chorezmi7240Fun fact: sambo was originally russian-flavoured judo
@@lihchong2267 From what I understand, the founders of Sambo were not satisfied with judo even then. They wanted a freestyle judo that would allow almost anything. Another reason is that the second founder of Sambo was a Greco-Roman wrestler and wanted to introduce a wrestler's mentality into the sport.
@@muhammadibnmusaal-chorezmi7240 tbh like 10 years ago the difference between the two sports is pretty minimal.
one allows chokes, the other leglocks. It's why when you see a fighter who gets billed as a Sports Judo practicioner, they will also have plenty of judo experience as thats where the money is.
I've heard this story before and it is likely true however all the years previous to 2012 Olympics Japan was still top of the medal table there is only one year they haven't been top pre leg grabs.
as a judo defender, i'd have to agree. judo's main pit fall is banning effective techniques like leg grabs or korean style judo
So what does that have to do with Judo. Those techniques still exist and people still train non olympic Judo you understand this right? Like man I wonder if Koreans do that there Korean style Judo.
I do Judo and I have been saying this for a while. Judo in the USA seems to have a inferiority complex where a bunch of nerds try to belabor the virtues of their martial art for self defense and this video was just so cathartic.
4 years of Judo here: it's not. It lacks emphasis on ground fighting in most schools (mainly because of the competitive rules, that are way too restrictive when it comes to ground fighting), it relies too much on using the gi, and most of the throws make you turn your back, while not being that reliable (hard to perform/not guaranteed to be effective even if performed correctly), which is a perfect recipe for disaster.
@@na-ky8ou turning your back isn't a problem if you've established good Kuzushi .
If you're Kuzushi is poor then you shouldn't attempt any throw
@@SoldierDrew First of all, you don't need to capitalize "kuzushi" everytime you write it, it's just a word from another language, not some kind of mystical technique that has been kept a secret for 200 000 000 years.
Secondly, since you're not japanese, you can just say "get your opponent off balance".
Thirdly, with or without getting your opponent off balance correctly, you can still be countered on the floor, and end up with the other guy on your back, or on top of you; which is exactly what is brought up in this video, and what happened to me almost every time I fought during the past 4 years: I got thrown, landed either on top of my opponent, or behind him with a fully locked on choke, and then got told that I had lost because my shoulders touched the floor first.
@@na-ky8ou I've never practiced judo, but I have practiced sambo, a somewhat similar martial art. To a degree, sambo suffers from similar issues as judo, though not as much. We practice some freestyle wrestling takedowns and spend more time on the floor compared to judo. However, when it comes to floor techniques, BJJ has far more to offer.
@@na-ky8ou First of all: Saying "kuzushi" and "Uke" and "tori" is way easier and explains what is what than always having to say "off balancing" and "the guy who receives the techniques" and "the guy who does the technique".
Second: No one has to be French to use French loan words in English.
The same goes for Japanese loan words, or any other languages loan words we use in the English language.
"Bidet" isn't an English word, so we should just say "toilet that sprays water up your but." right?
How about "Deja-vu"? Or "Tortellini"? Just say "cheese stuffed noodle", we're not from Italy, right?
You sound very silly for dying on this hill.
Third: Sport Judo has done quite a lot to hamper Judo's already limited effectiveness.
Learning Judo to incorporate the principles and concepts outside of Judo can be greatly beneficial.
I don't know many other places to learn footsweeps and practice them to the degree Judo will allow.
You need to watch more hockey if you think grabbing someones shirt collar isnt effective in a fight
The problem is the other guy grabs yours and it becomes Don Frye vs Takayama. Out of all the scenarios where grabbing a shirt while striking is available, you managed to pick the least effective one. Trading CTE for zero gain.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD mhmmm.
Judo Guys dont teach dealing with strikes.
But there are gi manipulations who put you in better position to strike, defend strikes and grapple.
Sambo lays emphasize on this
ruclips.net/video/UblnqH6e9Ew/видео.html
Judo was founded under the assumption that after you get an opponent to the ground you stab them to death, double legs, scramble and submissions are a last resort option when fighting for survival or on the battlefield
Very interesting point
Correct. Judo came from Jiu jitsu which was concerned with close quarter battlefield fighting. After your long range weapons are gone (bow/spear/staff) then it's just you, your opponent and a short blade. It's probably easier to stab someone after you've thrown them on their back? (I'm not really sure because I've never tried to stab someone? I guess it's disorienting and tough to stab someone if you've been thrown on your back?). Keeping the Gi was probably a decision to stay faithful to the battlefield applicability as well. People will always be wearing armor or battle blouse on a battle field. You don't normally face a make opponent in a war. People don't realize that nationalized martial arts were about equipping the male populace with some basics so that basic training could be shortened. Nationalizing and promoting Judo and other martial arts in a standardized way was also about general physical fitness. I think the video makes some great points which I agree with but it misses the point of what judo is really about: military readiness, fitness, moral development. Judo doesn't do a bad job at those things. Judo was not about making the male populace better at street fighting. Pre nationalized karate and kung fu were all about street fighting though but I would argue that karate and kung fu are better at very close quarter fighting (hallways and allies of ancient Asia). Asian fighting arts also have the problem of creating a fighting system for dealing with other Asian people. Not all people around the world have the size/shape of Asian people. People should first decide what they really want in an fighting art then decide what their body structure is then pick a martial art and they should always couple their martial art with intense physical conditioning. Your art is useless without a foundation of rigorous lifelong physical fitness.
Bro has never heard about the gracie hunter. When it comes to ground work, basic strong fundamental groundwork is more than enough. In fact, quick and to the point ground work is highly encouraged in mma. A triangle choke and armbar can get you very far. whereas bjj is on an infinite time loop and is so slow. Judo holistically is up there.
I got to watch out for chadi's response to this. I believe he's a judoka but makes a lot wrestling video essays.
I use judo all the time as a bouncer.
Do I only use Judo? No, of course not but if I don't want to hurt a man standing in front of me I will not blast a double on him, instead I will trip or throw him while controlling him on a way down.
Does the fact that I am 190 cm and 115 kg help me use it? Of course but that always is helpful and I believe that an avarage human could do it as well.
Also here in Poland You wear something with long sleeve for most of the year, especially at nights and let me tell that grabbing a GI transfers to grabbing a hoodie or a jacket preatty well.
I would say it is worth to combine more martial arts or train MMA if You want to reach maximum potential but Judo can be a very nice suplement for your own style and can give You advantage.
Ow, and also, being thrown on your back and hitting concrete can easly end a fight so if you were abuot to use with maulitious intent it sure is possible.
Dude, Judo is badass for the street. Imagine using the entire planet earth as a weapon---thrown to concrete [head first]. Also don't forget that the ground part of BJJ was originally from Judo called [Newaza]. Gracies didn't invent ground work.
You are on a padded surface, which allows for scrambles regardless of takedown amplitude. Change the fighting environment to "da streetz" or concrete and see how well an individual would even get the idea to scramble from a full commitment osoto-gari, which by the way is a high- percentage move that is NOT A HIP THROW. The ground in which you land on drastically changes the dynamics.
Also, Judo doesn't magically go away without the gi because people most of the time wear clothes. They aren't as sturdy as the GI because you're not meant to practice with them repeatedly.
A very nice and fair take. In any fight, no sole martial art has any massive advantage over another. Striking mixed with some sort of grappling is needed on da streetz or in the cage. In early MMA, it seems that judokas had some advantage in the clinch, since early on the clinch game was more dirty boxing, knees, level changes for takedowns, and arm control/whizzers. But now the clinch game has grown and many fighters know what to look for in terms of hip leverage and set ups for trips.
"In any fight, no sole martial art has any massive advantage over another." That's just...not true at all. The history of MMA itself proves that certain individual martial arts match up against others really, really badly. Or are you going to try and say that a wrestler doesn't have a massive advantage over someone who only did boxing, or Aikido?
@@AirLancer I'm saying you have to be well rounded. Yes wrestling and BJJ > plum flower fist, but even then plum flower fist guy's flying jump kick still might score the KO. So you need some basic striking "sense" and skills along with ground work.
@@KN-op3et "I'm saying you have to be well rounded." Then you should've said that, because instead you said something that was plainly untrue.
Judo provides enough athleticism to fight 90% of people on the street. It also teaches you how to handle the human body, though possibly not as well as wrestling or BJJ. That said, take a good judoka, give him 9 months of boxing and 9 months of BJJ, and he will probably defeat 99% of people on the street.
You can take a (healthy male) baseball player, bodybuilder, football player or whatever, give him 9 months of BJJ and 9 months of boxing and they would beat 99% of people in the street. He is saying judo is good and legit, but for fighting there is a list of better options
@@apc9714 Well yea I mean wrestling is the best period so anything compared to wrestling is going to not be as effective as wrestling
@@apc9714 Yes, true. But judo would be a much better option compare to baseball, bodybuilding or football because judo does have a grappling foundations and other sports do not.
You can say this bullshit about boxing and BJJ and wrestling too. Seriously it’s stupid. They’re all limited styles, MMA is the end game.
@@TheNEOverse I would definitely take average Combat Sambo guy over the average MMA guy for the streets
I don't remember any YT video making me so tired.
You are complaining all the time about Judo, have you praised this martial art for anything? for a grip like a crocodile's jaw? for incredible durability?
1. You show some Olympic games, of course they don't want to land on their backs, that's why they train. The last thing a judoka wants is to lie on his back.
2. IJF makes a really bad for Judo community - banning legs, but we cannot do anything about it.
3. Judo vs BJJ - 2 weeks ago there was uploaded YT short, 7 mln views, Judoka vs BJJ, both black belts, Judoka beat him in 20 seconds and put on the lever
4. Judo vs Wrestling - yeah you might be right. I heard that there are some wrestlers going on Judo tournaments and winning. but so what?
5. Presence in MMA - MMA has its own rules, alot of was talked about it why BJJ or striking are better for it.
6. How you can even compare that Judo vs BJJ = automatically BJJ win? The person is fighting not the Martial Art !!!
If on street fight enemy don't know how to fight and you know ANY martial art - you win
If on street fight enemy know how how to fight and you know ANY martial art - up to a person, its lottery
BUT if we have fight on street it can end also with a knife, and most probably it will like it, who normally attack other people? The best method is RUN.
Whoever read the comment - don't listen what any YT say, pick any martial art you like and train. Go on training and have fun. Do what you like. It will benefit you anyway regardless.
" pick any martial art you like and train. Go on training and have fun. Do what you like. It will benefit you anyway regardless" THIS. I'm so tired of hearing "x martial art is not functional" while the goal for a martial ART is self-improvement through a fighting sport. The choice is not what's the most effective to beat someone up, it's which martial art will make me feel the best about myself. Excellent comment, thank you!
I completely agree with you. Personally, in a street fight I'd take my chances against a (2 year level) BJJ guy with some stand up game as opposed to taking the (2 year level) Judo guy with some ground game.
I just think it's incredibly stupid that he thought it would be a good argument to nitpicky a video of a BJJ guy beating a judo guy and used that as an actual basis for why judo sucks. If that's what we're doing here, I could easily pick a video where the opposite happens and have just as strong an argument as him
"4. Judo vs Wrestling - yeah you might be right. I heard that there are some wrestlers going on Judo tournaments and winning. but so what?"
That is right. I also heard some Judoka going to wrestling tournaments and win, but so what?
This is why I trained freestyle judo. I hated the limitations of IJF.
In defence of Judo, just because a sport “doesn’t work on da streetz” doesn’t mean it’s a bad sport, because the point of a sport is to be engaging to play. I mean bowling doesn’t work in a street fight either, but that doesn’t make it a bad sport. Then again, I guess getting hit in the shin with a bowling ball would suck…
It fucking works on the streets too lol. There's a good deal of footage of dudes just getting their shit rocked from hip throws or trips.
The way I see it, Judo is only half the martial art, BJJ is the other half.
Judo rules have destroyed it's ground game while BJJ rules have destroyed it's standup. Judo + BJJ is the COMPLETE art.
The reasons you mentioned are some of the reasons why I have adopted Justin Flores’ “wrestle-judo-jitsu” philosophy of combining it all, gi and no gi. He (j Flo) and max Schneider (onejudoka) are a treat to watch.
These takes depend on some fairly unreasonable or flat-out wrong assumptions about the judo players, i.e.
- that they don't know anything other than judo - pure judo like any martial art has gaps in it's game but judo techniques are absolutely effective and super dangerous when combined with basic wrestling and jiujitsu. It's like saying muay thai is a bad martial art because it doesn't do takedown defence;
- mixing between effectiveness in combat sports (where scrambles and ground game matters) vs self defence (where if you judo throw someone onto concrete, they are not getting back up);
- the idea that gi throws don't work without a gi is also wrong. A lot of gi throws can be performed nogi with small adjustments, whereas it's harder to bring a nogi game to gi due to having to learn grip breaks and not being able to do things like duck unders or free stiff arms when someone has a grip on you. In self defence, if you live somewhere cold or it's winter, people wear coats and heavy clothing. If not, an uchi, ippon or osoto works the same with or without a grip. Wrestling and Judo has a lot of the same techniques regardless.
- that rulesets define the martial art, which, sure modern judo rules are a bit silly and overly restrictive, rewarding giving up bad positions to score points/avoid being scored on (as does wrestling which also rewards going belly down, or jiujitsu by encouraging guard pulling but outlawing slams or high amplitude takedowns) - this is like the argument an MMA fighter would be defeated by groin shots and eye pokes "because it's against the rules of MMA", or that jiujitsu guys would all pull guard in a bar fight. It's just wrong - every combat sport has restrictive, "unrealistic" sport rules. A judoka is a grappler first, a competition rule player second. Most competent grapplers know which positions work on a mat in a comp setting and would do things differently on the street or wherever else.
- that judoka don't have subs and can't scramble is also just wrong. A judoka may be a worse scrambler than a wrestler or nogi BJJ player but would still outscramble any normal person 10 times out of 10, and judo players are great at pinning. Also, a LOT of judo schools teach newaza and spend time doing ground work and rolling. Elbow locks a la armbars are not the only permitted sub in Judo, this is just flatly incorrect. Certain chokes, kimuras, americanas etc. are also allowed and part of judo newaza.
And I say this as someone who's grappling base is nogi BJJ and wrestling that's only done a handful of judo classes and hates training in the gi.
I love Judo but thank you for making the point that "HITTING PEOPLE WITH THE EARTH" doesn't always end the fight. Drives me crazy that no one seems to understand this.
Judo has enough submissions in it that make it adequate for self defense.
@@JohnLocke1776 I didn't say it's not good for self defense. Just commenting on a falsehood many Judoka repeat.
yes it does, they get knocked out or they land on the floor hurt and you can run or kick them
literally ends it 99% of the time
When I was coming up one of my coaches emphasized “smashing” people and joked about people coughing up a lung. A really shitty double-leg isn’t going to end a fight, but when they go aerial and hit the ground so hard that a thud would echo through the room even through the tatami, and you don’t know how to take a fall, it 9/10 ends the fight. Actually experienced judo players get concussed often even on the tatami.
@@itsoracle Literally have video proof that's not the case. It can end the fight but no it usually does not knock them out.
Time for the spicy takes 🔥
If we still did catch wrestling in America it would be better than MMA.
Agreed... but also:
Folkstyle Wrestling is literally Catch Wrestling for kids.
And Folkstyle Wrestling dominates MMA.
Meaning "Catch for Kids" beats any other martial art as a base for MMA.
How? It’s basically submissions and wrestling with stupid pain compliance holds, where’s your striking? MMA is best.
@TheNEOverse Yes dummy when your in pain, you tap.
@@frankiecal3186 it’s not enough to hurt. You have to be able to snap or tender them unconscious. There are catch wrestling moves for it, but a whole slew of them are for just making people go ouch so you an take their money and continue on with the carnival.
@TheNEOverse Yes, catch submissions will definitely break your bones and leave you unconscious in a lot of pain.
I'm a new-ish judo coach (since last summer), so I came into this like: "Haha, time to get ripped on and reflect," but:
-Sport judo rewards players for the wrong things, like ending up on bottom. That's why you wouldn't use sport judo and footsweeps (maybe ko-uchi if other dude is really stupid) in a self defense situation. There's osoto, tai o, and hip throws for self defense. Yama arashi on 'crete is basically murder.
-Judo doesn't allow leg grabs or it encourages people to not rely on grabbing someone's leg to throw them? Also, Kosen judo is a thing and becoming rapidly popular to the point that I have to learn and teach a whole new set of techniques.
-Judo is useless if the guy isn't wearing a jacket, except there's lots of ways to throw someone without any upper body layers.
I'm glad you made this video because I do generally feel judo on it's own isn't perfect, but I feel like a lot was left out.
I would definitely agree.
It is an interesting perspective to add to your arsenal at the very least.
Especially as you learn from Judoka who could care less about competition, like both of my instructors who were former military.
Lots of conversations and time dedicated towards techniques around moving unwilling heavier (than you) masses.
How come it worked just fine foe Karo Parysian, without gi?
I'm not sure I could call Kosen Judo as especially popular. Getting more popular, yes, but still hardly mainstream.
But regarding the throws that can be done without a gi: many of these are part of wrestling, and often performed with more intent to get positional advantage. Whizzer Throw = Uchimata, Arm Throw = Seoi Nage, etc.
If you want to make Judo more functional for mixed combat sports, you'd first want to do a fair amount of no-go practice.
You could also allow the teaching and practice of now-defunct techniques like morote gari and kuchiki taoshi.
It would also be prudent to have the judoka catch a pin or lock after the takedown ("securement").
If you want it better for street combat, much the same, but also you can practice street-clothes grips on sweaters or jackets (not everyone lives in the deep south).
But all of this would take away training time for sport Judo, which is what a lot of people taking Judo are there to do. So it's on you as an instructor to determine what's in your students' best interests.
@@szilardfineascovasa6144 I'm not sure what point you're making, I defended no gi judo, but I prefer osotos and tai o to footsweeps. If your favorite fighter makes a throw work, then good for them.
@@Cavouku It's getting popular by me, enough that we added a whole day a week just for it.
Whether I agree or not, I really like how you argument your points with examples and only minimal smugness. On the internet, that's rare.
@ArmChairViolence you, sir, are a legend!!
I would like to add another thing. Even if you end the fight by "hitting them with the earth" and cracking their neck or something, that is actually WORSE! now you will face jail time for murder charges just for having thrown some drunk bum.
With other grappling styles you can choose to subdue and control them.
With judo... you either flipped them and they died, or you flipped them and they got back up and continued fighting.
I must say, I have fought some judoka in bjj, and they are often tough as nails.
This is a great point!
So, basically, Wrestling and Boxing. Everything else is just bullshido is what you’re saying. Gotcha.
Man when i did judo as a kid you threw to get a pin.
Its not much of a thing anymore but in terms of striking there is kudo.
Ground fighting used to be more of a thing too.
Or get this train mma
@@faithalone5081if you want to sure why not?
@@faithalone5081sure if you like, why not?
Most of these points are valid, but I can attest to the danger of an old-school guy who has trained with Japanese judokas. A 45 year-old black-belt judoka came to our BJJ gym and after a few minutes of pass guard game (king of the mat) he was dominating most everyone and even got occasional submissions over the two black belt instructors. He was bigger than them though. His understanding of balance and using body weight and technique instead of muscle was remarkable.
He visited for three or four months and taught the students some very valuable lessons.
BJJ blackbelt and Judo blackbelt here. Freestyle Judo and Kosen Judo -- decidedly the least popular rulesets, by exponential scale -- are drastically better for actual combat. But even those are best used as an elective "minor" in a BJJ curriculum. But when they are incorporated as such, they solidly fill in some absences in BJJ holistic arsenals. Just as wrestling should be a required "minor" concentration in a BJJ curriculum. IJF style should only be trained by people who are fine with it being a pure sport, or pure hobby. One of my favorite spectacles at IBJJF opens was when BJJ black belts who were also judo blackbelts would ragdoll the other blackbelt on their feet. Lots of airtime!
Hey just a couple notes that you should consider
- The stalling by holding the opponent down really isn't what you think. Traditionally, Judo is sort of what emerged after the samurai era ended. Osaekomi is pretty much what some samurai would do - hold their opponent down in water to drown them. Maybe not practical now, but that's why it was there at all. If you want to criticize hold downs, it goes for wrestling too, although they are clearly pretty different. But it is lsrgely symbolic, although not practical now.
- Yeah, a 4th dan getting raped like that.... not a good look. But many dojos are still out there spend at least half the time on the ground. Its not that judo doesn't have good scrambling and chaining, because believe me it does... its just that clubs who don't can get away with showing the turtle position to blick anything and calling it a day, aince the IJF encourages that. Judo clubs who get some stray BJJ guys are very privileged, since those guys are obviously great at the ground. I will come back to the Ne Waza point.
- Judo takedowns are indeed, not as good as wrestling. Especially with the IJF fcking up everything... and I would not reccomend Judo for street fights, as a judo athlete. Winter or regardless. Good luck throwing on ice. There are many reasons to do Judo, but self defense, not really. Fun fact, theres some University in the UK that partnered recently with elderly homes to teach breakfalls to prevent accidents from falls for elderly people.
Some things that are actually good from Judo for MMA to varying success:
- If you dont neglect the ground game, and want to win there, you're forced to go scramble as fast as fuck, since the bums running IJF will give you a penalty if you dont choke him out instantly or even pause. Yes, MMA has no Gi, but its a stylistically good thing that Judo has... besides the turtle position...
- It is adaptable to No Gi. Satoshi Iishi judo champion, has been the reigning No Gi champion in Croatia or somewhere in europe for a lonnnng time, but only after switching to No Gi long after retirement. Also, look up the Masaahiko Kimura wiki and you'll find out about the Gracie VS Kimura superfight. If nothing else, its a fun read and was one of the firdt superfights ever. But it does show the contrast between BJJ then and Judo then, although Helio called out Kimura who had maybe 20-40lbs more than Gracie.
- Unfortunately, judo styles are inconsistent for crossover to MMA. A judo tactician who relies on the Gi is going to be worse than a Georgian style judoka who just comes close, wraps aroung the waist and launches him into space... that's the type of judoka I'd send to a street fight. They'd call that guy neck breaker on Fox the next morning.
- It is similar to European wrestling in a weird way. American wrestling has little emphasis on using your feet as hands, unlike European wrestling and Judo.
- Judo is more than the sport. Asides from the atemi waza BS striking judo has, and the kata, the Do in Judo means something along the lines of the way, to perform actions with minimum effort and maximum efficiency. So even if you think its a shit art for MMA, it is definitely one of the definitive martial arts.
As someone who's done judo for maybe 5 years I'd say judo is above karate, and behind sambo, wrestling, nogi and pretty much all the regular striking sports for MMA. But man Judo as a sport is fcking awesome, and the history too man.
16:30 Ohh that great, can you enter a Judo competition like Seth did and get a medal? Out of curiosity have you won medals in any form of martial art competition? Or had any ranked Amateur fights?
I wanna see him randori at a judo club :)
Please, judo supporters, remember that Western martial technics have also survived through their sporting form. Then what we know now as "wrestling" is also a very supervised combat sport so that there are not too many cripples or deaths in a peaceful society.
Military wrestling technics (associated to fencing skills, such as bayonets or swords) were also used on the battlefields for centuries. As in Japan. And it was not to look pretty, but to kill the enemy in hand-to-hand combat... or to capture and ransom them.
One thing that immediately strikes me in these kinds of arguments is what you said around 2:45. Judo doesn't work in an 'actual fight'. I honestly hate how much work that vague term can do. You either mean a street fight, in which the counter argument is people can just do judo as a competitive sport without being concerned if it is the single best self defense sport (you don't punch or kick, obviously it's not the best) or you mean a everything goes kind of show of between people from different martial arts backgrounds, which is an entirely different beast. The thing is though, that in an MMA ring you are not doing self defence, and on the street you are doing MMA - there are way more variables. A lot of arguments just come down to this, and at this point it should be obvious to everyone who has a bit of a brain that muay thai and wrestling are simply going to 'beat' most other martial arts.
Judo is weird because it tries to be a spectator sport, but as you show it does not fully succeed at this. However, I think this is the more interesting angle to judge the sport by. Most of it's competitive rules exist to force judokas to practice throws, at a much more fundamental level than you even adressed. Not only do you wear a gi, you are not allowed to grip in a very 'stiff' way (no idea what the English terminology is), which is basically the most effective way to grip someone to prevent them from throwing you. You get disqualified if you grip the wrong way too many times. The question is whether judo, with it's ruleset around spectatorship (and sometimes safety), is actually all that interesting for spectators. And I think you are right in you examples that not only is the ground work really boring, but also the scoring system makes little sense. Judo is really due for a revised ruleset.
However, in my opinion a sport like judo where people throw each other around could be really fun to watch if it succeeded at what it did. Would it be the best in the UFC? No, but a boxer is also going to have a hard time defending against kicks, but that doesn't mean boxing should change it's ruleset for that reason. In conclusion, I do not think you are wrong, but whether or not something is overrated depends on the vague general opinion anyway, and is kind of hard to prove either way. If your arguments around fighting sports rely on both 'overrated' and 'actual fight' (I cannot stress how much I hate that 'term'), your arguments are being somewhat carried by vague concepts.
This is silly, you seem to know just a bit about every martial arts and it shows. IF MMA was fought in the Gi everyone would use Judo as a base and go on about how Judo is the greatest base for mma etc. The only reason why it is not fought in a gi is because its made to make money and people want to see jacked fighters with 6 pack abs fight it out. Where as normally in the real world people are usually wearing something. With that know fact, just think about how many if any fights you've had on the street and if the other person was wearing a long sleeve shirt you could grab (You don't need a jacket) my rate is 2/3 they were wearing something I could grab and even the one without anything I foot swept in about 2-3 seconds and was on top of him. I am about 6 feet tall weight about 205lbs I strongly doubt... let me rephrase that I put good money you could not throw me on my head. Granted I have taken a few no gi judo classes and have been adjusting my Judo for no Gi. Actually it has been easier to throw people without the Gi if I am honest. I can go on about this but I might just make a video instead.
You basically dump hundreds just to practice a "SPORT"
Makw a vid on ittttt
I suppose the only thing you are missing is that if a judo practitioner had to throw you on to a city pavement, You won’t be getting up… period
The thing is, judo's rules are changing to make it a better sport to watch/train, it's not being modified to be better in real fights and I agree with that because I and the majority of people don't train judo for self defense or MMA, but for competing in judo itself.
This is what people forget. The leg grabs were not used for great Judo, but basically amounted to gaming the system. In danger? Drop to the legs and stall out. Ahead on points? Ne-waza and run the clock.
There are still flaws to Judo rules, but I see why they're the way they are.
I'll say this. Why are you wanting to grapple on the Streets? I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but a well placed Judo Throw on concrete or asphalt can not only be a Fight stopper, but it can lead to a fatality. Most people aren't used to having their balance manipulated like that. I'm not a Judoka, but I mos def disagree. Also, MMA should never be the criteria. Cage Fighting as a Sport Ruleset doesn't equate to a Street Fight.
In my case, up here in the frozen north, we wear hoodies/jackets/heavy winter jackets about half of the year.
Lapel grabs in my mind are a fantasy, sleeve grabs on the other hand...
This is my first time in this channel and I really enjoyed the criticism. I’ve been doing judo for 17 years now since I was 3 and have been doing wrestling for 2 and a half years now as well as boxing for about a year. Here’s my take.
The major downfall of judo lies in the absence of striking (but that also kinda applies to every grappling art) as for the points you made.
1) the absence of judoka in mma. This is mainly due to the fact that the IJF will not allow you to compete in judo if you also compete in any other combat sport. Seems harsh; it is but it’s the rules. And if you started out with judo then there is not much incentive to leave a martial art which you are good at and enjoy over anything else. Most people that do bjj will do it for mma because the competitive scene is a mockery of the art. Although, a lot of judo techniques can be seen in the ufc but are often passed off as wrestling takedowns because they were done in a clinch. Grip fighting is completely absent because you would end up groping each others honkers. And so is very difficult to identify when a technique is used.
2) needing a gi to perform a takedown. Judo is defined by 2 things; the first being: seiryoku zenyo (principle of maximum efficiency) and most importantly: kuzushi (breaking an opponents balance). Kuzushi is extremely complex so to be concise I will not describe it fully but you will be able to find some great demonstrations of it from some other channels. Some people are mislead into thinking that a grip is completely necessary for a throw however it only makes implementing the kuzushi easier. Think of it this way: an American metaphor would be going into a bar and telling people that I single-handedly killed 20 people with just my index finger. My index finger merely pulled the trigger of my Glock 19 which sent a bullet through their skull. A bit of a retarded argument isn’t it.
Finger-gun-person
Grips-kuzushi-throw
A perfectly reasonable response to this would be asking why we would use a gi if throws could be executed without them. First reason is tradition. Second is safety. We use a lot of uchi-Komi in judo which is repeated practice of a throw without execution to practice technique. I did this once to someone who wasn’t wearing a gi and dislocated his shoulder. Turns out the gi also evenly distributes the energy throughout your whole torso to avoid such injury.
3) judo’s applicability in street fights.
A perfectly executed throw on concrete will hospitalize you. When I was younger there was a 6 month period where the dojo was undergoing renovation and we had to rent out the local Methodist church where we laid our tatami out but it didn’t cover the whole flooring. As a disclaimer, the floor was made out of marble. Shattered my pelvis. Made shitting a very tedious task to say the least.
Once I got into a school fight and performed a picture perfect obi tori gaeshi onto a kid who was giving me trouble. This was on grass. Immediately after performing the throw I then broke his arm using juju gatame. Sent the kid into a screaming fit without throwing a single punch. These examples are all well and good but I’ve just alluded to exactly what you said would happen where we give arbitrary examples of one off scenarios. You got me there. A major factor however is stance. In wrestling and bjj the favoured stance is one that is off center; leaning forward to prevent a single or double being performed on yourself but also simultaneously being closer to the opponents legs with less distance to shoot for one of your own. Judo however, holds a perfectly upright and balanced posture like that of those seen in striking oriented stances with footwork exactly in parallel with that of boxing. When you pit a wrestling stance against a boxer the wrestler will face a dilemma. Either use a wrestling stance and go to an all you can eat buffet of hooks and uppercuts or properly defend himself and be far enough away from the boxers legs that the boxer has more than enough time to sprawl or smash him. A modern paradox. Doing both boxing and judo I can confidently say that it has a chemistry almost as good as unsupervised toddlers and small choking hazards. Truly a power combo.
4) judo has become a spectator sport.
Yes it has. The reason why leg grabs were banned was to differentiate judo from sambo and wrestling grappling sports. This does not by any means however stop us from practicing throws using leg grabs and we have some wild ones at that (check out nomura vs oyegin 1996 Olympics). You also showed examples of how a throw ending in a more advantageous position was not rewarded an ippon whereas the opposite was true for a sloppy throw. Of course if the victor wanted to end up in a more advantageous position then he could do so very easily but the rules does not specify and so therefore there is no incentive. In the clip with shohei, he rolled over him because the fight had already ended. It would be seen as disrespectful to continue fighting him. Please do not judge a sport based on its rules because in that case, bjj is a pile of steaming horseshit (ibjjf). I also trained in a gym that had a heavy emphasis on ne-waza because my instructor understood the importance of groundwork. By the time I was 14 I had won more street fights than actual competition matches as it wasn’t seen as necessary to compete by my sensei.
To close out this novel of a response I will say that no martial art is perfect and it’s about the practitioner not the style. Your criticisms were fair, well argued and justified. If one thing is certain about all this it’s that we can agree that we disagree and the most superior form of fighting is the combination of many.
2:00 this part was funny. It’s not 10 points because the first number is for waza ari and the second is for ippon so the guy only scored a half point because two waza ari makes an ippon (which is a victory). I’m not trying to be pedantic but you said it like he scored a half court shot😂
Judo didnt suck when Islam effortlessly foot sweeped Arman straight into mount
Armchair Violence doesn't think Judo has footsweeps lol.
He has never listened to Fedor, Khabib, Islam, Merab or watched their fights.
@@abc-vw8iy To be honest they had a wrestling/sambo background. They were always allowed to have training that fixed Judo's flaws. You go to 90% of Judo schools saying you want to train for MMA they'll say "go to an MMA school then".
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD In Russia thwir system of training is different. Almost everybody from Khabibs team trained judo a lot and they are all black belts because it was the favorite sport of their coach. Khabib evem started as judo athlete and Islam competed on th local level when he was younger, he was talking about that few times. Also sambo is like upgraded version of judo, like judo before these modern rules. Anyways saying that Judo is bad is very stupid when we have that much elite athletes that use judo even in mma.
@@TheNEOverse ArmChair violence is braindead
Hello Mr Violence. Nice to see you again. Almost missed this one then realized I did not have Notifications on. Controversial subject, no doubt. Especially when I find videos extolling Judo like"why judo is best for self defense - Joe Rogan" and "this is why judo is the best martial art" and "lethal techniques banned" and "old judo was crippling."
However you provide a very cogent and logical argument whereas other sources seem primarily emotional or biased.
I am always impressed with the effort you make and the logical structure of your arguments and the lively, crisp and slightly sarcastic presentation style.
I pretty much always find your arguments quite valid and very convincing.
You are certainly one of the best and clearest commentator on fighting styles I have come across.
So thank you once again for your efforts and be well until next time. Cheers!
Well there IS a reason why all that was banned and can't be done or you won't have a sport at all. Funny how they don't have that there bullet dodge ball sport where they shoot each other with bullets and shit for funzos. And old Judo is crippling that's why it works. This video is on Olympic Judo. So much is banned for wrestling too and most of the MMA rules are against what a wrestler would do, you can glean a lot by which sport gets all the bans, which punch or kick is banned? Soccer kicks and stomps to the face and shit....yes now why can't you do that catch wrestling shit and maim people gee i wonder if its effective.
@@SM-nz9ff Then why even talk about the defensive efficacy of what is defined as a sport. Moot point really. If you can maim people with judo then it is an effective system.
In competition, people play to the rules, so in judo competition, people do what gets points there. Same in BJJ and Wrestling. You can't judge the art by what is being done in the rule set. You could have gotten just as many examples of wrestlers and BJJ guys doing things in competitions in their sport that would get them wrecked in MMA. You found a few random examples of judoka who botched their transition that's not analysis.
You should at least have looked at Jason Morris' wrestling highlight reel before preparing this. Morris was an Olympic judo silver medalist who wrestled Div I in college, while only training judo. About the only wrestling matches he lost were when his opponent pulled off a solid low single. Pretty amazing for a guy who wasn't even training wrestling.
Morris is not an outlier. Search "judo in a wrestling match" and you'll see plenty of people who know how to apply judo in other settings.
Within the first two minutes you complain that "this guy got points even though he ended up in bottom position! If this was MMA or Wrestling, he wouldn't have got points for that". Yeah dude, it's a completely different sport with different rules. Your critique is literally that judo is bad because it has a different ruleset than other sports. No shit dude. I don't even understand how you can even process that as a valid critique in your brain without immediately realizing how stupid that is. Its a shame that all these martial arts channels that otherwise make good content are doing this trend of "this traditional martial art/training method is stupid" and then you watch the video and it's the most arbitrary nitpicky complaints ever...
Why all this talking... show us how you take a good judoka down...
Got it, you'd accept all of his points if the reasoning was the exact same but it was told by a superior athlete.
@@RaveyDavey Reasoning is always open to a rebuke; much of Armchair's argument was precisely that individual fights where a judoka prevailed weren't representative of how good the martial art was as a system. He backed this up pretty strongly by looking at Judo's poor record in MMA. If we reduced arguments to their herald I might as well be the greatest coach of all time since I could beat up 57 year old John Danaher no problem.
@@zaarongaming8174”judos poor record in mma” enter fedor emelianko.
Thanks, now the only grappling art that is accessible to me is bad apparently..
Yep, but if nothing else is available then dont worry about it.
This guy is just biased dude, don´t listen to everything you hear on youtube. Judo is lethal, you don´t need a Gi to perform. Skin works just fine, it just hurts like crazy. It does everything Jiu-jitsu does, you just have an excellent variety of takedowns on top of that. Would love to see someone try and kick an expert judo Ka to the face, and see who is left standing. (Pro tip, keep both legs on the ground with a wide stance and a low center of gravity) If you try the same with a punch, your center of gravity moves with that motion. And you will be trying to breathe after landing. It hurts, and takes a while for your lungs to unfold. Then comes the broken ribs etc. Because people that punch and kick, are not taught how to fall correctly.
dude you are delusional and obviously never sparred with a thai fighter
@@guyfawkes5012I never sparred in my life at all! But I scouted my whole city and found kickboxing, MMA and judo. I plan to train after my 2nd semester test which ends in like 2 weeks.
nah don't listen to this guy. teain what you can where and when you can
As a former judoka, turned mma fighter agree. But nothings more op than a taio Toshi maki komi from whizzer
Fair enough, IJF rules sure put unnatural boundaries.
11:33 Judo vs. Da Streetz
But... is it really interesting to settle "who of these two X practitioners would actually win on the street"? 😀
I know there are judokas who write that, and ArmchairViolence adress them in this section of the video...
The problem with "Judo vs. Da Streetz" is that there is no "fair fight" at all. People will fight as dirty a possible, they can be armed or with friends, other people will interfer etc. Street fights are not interesting because "anything goes". Who wins: The World Champion Boxer vs. A 3rd person with a gun? Street Fights sucks, and I write that especially to the judokas defending judo with "Da Streetz" argument. It's more interesting who would a fair win in a competition (which Armchair Violence seem to have evidence that supports that wrestlers/bjj do better than judo).
It's also been said a million times before, it's not really the martial art that matters, it's the individual.
Judo is popular that's why there are many people invested in it and defend it.
The tribalism and defending needs to stop tho. It's silly.
Judo has flaws (which this video humorously point out) and
but the flaws won't go away with tribalism/ online arguments.
Yeah Judo does have flaws however it absolutely has benefits including for self defense.
People have literally had there arms broken in competition from these techniques like Waki Gatame there is literally a compilation video of it as A matter of fact Shinya Aoki used it on Keith & Dislocated his arm & Judo relies on Kuzushi or off balancing it's opponents which is crucial to the throws.
You do not necessarily need A Jacket to throw someone at the most all you need for these techniques is Strong Hips & Leg's.
You've raised some interesting, valid points in your video. I'd love to see a discussion between you and Chadi or Shintaro Higashi on the subject.
That said, I think Judo is a good complementary martial art to BJJ - especially if you don't have the option of doing wrestling or sambo in your area.
Armchair violence is not interested in a debate he is going to lose.
@@TheSonic1685 I think they would actually agree with him on some points.
Not really sure what Chadi or Shintaro have anything to say. Shintaro is interested in Judo alone. Chadi focuses on history presentation but falls short on debating the efficacy of Judo outside of it's own sport context.
Judo is S tier for self defence. Has been used extensively by police and military and proven in combat repeatedly. Plenty of footage online of Judo being used in real fights and real self defence situations. Judo black belts have long been notoriously good in real fights.
Truth
If you're in the military and executing a Judo throw in combat, nearly everything has gone terribly wrong because using your entrenching tool as a weapon is more effective than trying to use Judo on an armed opponent.
@@AirLancer handling prisoners, situations while peace keeping, detaining people, checkpoints, situations with unarmed civilians
Isn't it more to do with Judo practitioners being generally tough and athletic as opposed to their techniques?
@@ynghuch that applies to every combat sport.
Boxers wear gloves
Judo players no leg grabs and rely on gi
Greco Roman no leg grabs
Freestyle wrestling: hunched over posture
Sambo: limited time on the ground
BJJ to much time on the ground
The ability to be athletic and work against resistance is what helps the most.
As someone else commented and you alluded to, Judo’s advantage over wrestling is judo’s ubiquity. The question is how available is wrestling for anyone beyond their school years? Myself included.
"Judo as better takedowns than brazilian jujitsu, but so does my grandma" was so funny and true
I really appreciate this video. What you said at 13:25 is also really interesting to me.
Do you think you could do a video addressing which takedowns from wresting would work on concrete vs. which ones would get the person performing the takedown hurt? I feel like I see a lot of takedowns in the UFC that would hurt both people if it were performed on concrete. Wrestling seems like a great martial art for self-defense, but sometimes it seems like there are only a few takedowns that would really be wise to use on a hard surface. I don't know that much about wrestling though, so I'd be really interesting to learn more.
I feel like if you enjoy judo…then by all means do judo! Not everyone has to train for MMA or a street fight.
Bro, those disclaimers 😂
My man had no chill, and I'm here for it, buddy!
On hip throws in MMA, they only really ever happen when up against the wall because literally all you need to do to avoid them is get your hips back. Without clothes to grab on to, it’s pretty hard to toss someone who knows you’re trying to do it. On the wall, there isn’t really room to get that space between the two fighters’ hips. It’s good to know how to do, but super niche and risks giving up your back.
Do you watch a lot of MMA? The overwhelming majority of wrestling these days end up against the wall. Its the opposite of niche, its a whole game winning aspect of MMA, and teh sort of shit that the Dagestanis have become amazing with.
Small shock that said Dagestanis are great judoka.
@@TheNEOverse yes, I watch tons of it. And even most wall wrestling still involves shooting in on the legs. And the Dagestanis are wrestlers. They use very little Judo or even Sambo in the cage (Islam doing the most). It’s a risky move because you’re not getting kuzushi with someone leaned against the cage and there’s a risk of giving up your back. The right circumstances have to line up to hit these things without the gi and it’s always gonna be lower percentage than a single leg, double leg, knee pick, etc. I call that the definition of niche. I’m not saying it’s ineffective, I’m saying there are very few circumstances where a hip toss is a better option than something higher percentage and safer.
@@CaPnBaLlBaG The Dagestanis are MMA fighters, with skill in wrestling as well as Judo.
They also hit a lot of inside trips and sweeps all the time from there, moves that aren't especially prominent in wrestling the way they are in Judo and Sambo.
I don't necessarily care about hip throws, I'm talking holistically. Judo offers more than hip throws.
@@TheNEOverse my comment was specifically about hip throws. I’m well aware of foot sweeps and trips (which are even less common in MMA than the hip throws) but those are also wrestling moves. They’re also insanely hard to hit against a sweaty opponent with no clothes to grab.
There isn’t a lot of Judo in MMA because it simply doesn’t work as well without the gi. Now we can argue which moves belong to Judo and which belong to wrestling and whether or not gi grips vs underhooks are the defining trait, but I don’t think it matters in the broader argument because it’s just not anywhere near as effective in the cage as wrestling. I don’t know why Judoka just can’t let it go and move on. Every other martial arts takes their criticism on the chin and laughs about it. But for some reason, online Judoka are literally incapable of accepting any criticism of their martial art. It’s honestly holding Judo back. Imagine how much the quality of Judo would improve if judoka started saying “Yeah, maybe we do rely too much on the gi, let’s see if we can translate our moves to a nogi style and experiment like BJJ did”.
@@CaPnBaLlBaG Because we do, and we have gone into MMA and done the judo moves but then guys like you will just go and say 'that's just wrestling actually'.
I think wrestling is ultimately more suited to MMA because its no gi, but that is not to say Judo can't be used either, or even cross trained with wrestling to be good. MMAists cross train in the end, why isn't Judo allowed to do the same?
Have you ever rolled with a high level Judoka?
me: *Quietly waiting for the Kendrick-Drake level Beef between Armchair Violence and Chadi.
(Note* I havent watched this video yet, and i agree with Armchair [his govt. name] >%90 of the time. I suspect this will fall into the
Tbf, if you're out at night, it shouldn't be uncommon for people to be wearing sturdy jackets, not necessarily thick ones
Honestly, most of the time even a t-shirt is enough to get the right grip for 80% of the techniques. Apparently he lives in an area where people go around naked all of the time
You make a good case, but a high level judoka is still the one person I’m scared to get into a clinch with
See I think the issue is that people end up falling into the trap of trying to argue the wrong point either because they are delusional about their style's capability or they unknowingly accepting the premise that "the best martial art" is the one that could beat up all other martial artists. I'll admit that I am a Taekwondo guy, I also admit that it's not the most efficient, it's not good for self defense, it doesn't even have the best strikes. However I don't consider what the best martial art is to be the one that can beat up all other martial artists best is subjective, I think Taekwondo is the best for me specifically because I like kicking, it keeps me active, gives me discipline and structure. I also live in Canada in a quite safe part of the world so I don't expect I will ever have to use it in self defense and even if I do the chances that the person I end up needing to use it against has any sort of training is unlikely. Like yeah if I go against someone who has a wrestling background, a mma background, or even a boxing background I'm going to be in trouble but I'm also going to be equally in trouble of I am going against someone who has a knife or a gun too and that's a lot more likely. I mean if you want to consider what is best as who would win in some sort of chaotic bare-knuckle brawl to the death apocalyptic scenario but realistically even MMA has rules which go out the windows in a street fight. You think I won't soccer kick a downed attacker in a street fight? You don't think I'll gouge their eyes or kick them in the balls? Best is what works to achieve your goals, if you want to be able to beat anyone in hand-to-hand combat Taekwondo is definitely not your best choice, if you want something that helps keep you in shape and gives you a taste of combat while minimizing the odds of ending up in the hospital Taekwondo isn't a bad choice.
@@RaveyDavey Yeah that's my point exactly. Taekwondo isn't a detriment to my realistic self defense scenario but I also am self-aware enough to know that not all of the techniques we practice are viable options in a realistic scenario, particularly the excessive bouncing (no point in tiring yourself out but the bouncing is more of a way for us to train to be light on our feet). Also the fact that I am at least somewhat used to being punched or kicked even if we are restrained by rules makes me more prepared than most people are for a fight, as the saying goes everyone is real tough until they get hit in the face and then you will find out if they have the fighting spirit. I mean sure Taekwondo isn't the best for self defense or street fights but it's not the worst and it's good enough for me as far as efficacy goes while also not making me wake up every morning with my entire body hurting from years of going toe to toe with people to turn myself into a warrior. I'm fine with just being a guy who can kick real hard I don't need to be a warrior :P
Judo > butt scooting BJJ
Yes.
Stomping> butt scooting bjj
Except the butt scooting BJJ guy wins every time
BJJ modified for mma >>>>>>>>> sport BJJ > Judo
Even sport BJJ athletes statistically have better representation than Judokas
@@graciederangementsyndrome3669 judo is just not practical for MMA. Not enough groundwork and takedowns are too reliant on grips. Hip throws and foot sweeps are too low percentage. Wrestling and BJJ is just too practical not to train. Why spend 10 years in Judo when you could just do 3 years of another combat sport
@@Gunnar-Peterson Exactly. Another problem with throws is the set up. Getting the grips from the upper body tends to be risky because you have to close the gap in direct striking range. After bypassing the striking range, you then have to establish a cinched grip and not lose it so that's more than one step plus you can get badly countered when trying for the throw. Wrestling on the other hand makes you change your levels and immediately go for the legs so it's safer from getting struck and it's faster to get the takedown.
As for groundwork, Judo fanboys seriously think citing Kosen Judo is proof of Judo's groundwork lmao. Almost nobody does Kosen Judo since it's relegated exclusively in a handful of Japanese universities and it's inaccessible to the public. On top of that, BJJ has a larger pool of talent and participants globally and it's constantly evolving while Kosen has an extremely tiny pool of competitors in Japan only and declined since WW2. The video is about Judo that's practiced globally, not some niche ruleset.