Pagan Teaching in Christianity - Dr Tim Jennings
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- Опубликовано: 16 сен 2024
- Excerpt from Lesson 7: The Crisis Continues (4th Quarter Nov. 14, 2015).
Dr. Tim Jennings leads the study of this lesson in "Jeremiah"
See the full study "2015 Q4 Lesson 7: The Crisis Continues (Nov. 14)" here: • 2015 Q4 Lesson 7: The... .
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I have been blessed by this man's teachings.
Hi Laura. My only concern is that he stands alone! Who else has grasped his vision? I assume you have visited his site? comeandreason.com/index.php/en/ .
I used to find him difficult to understand but why, because my brain was indoctrinated with "standard interpretations".
I've just uploaded this video "I didn't deserve this!" ruclips.net/video/bw6u9RArQJ0/видео.html , which explains the problem of suffering with satisfaction.
Dr Jennings view of GOD allows us to draw near to the Almighty without fear, no matter who we are ("Just" or unjust).
May you be drawn to trust in Christ and the Father, and may His gracious Spirit lead you all the way home, is my prayer for you (and for every human being).
Blessings be yours in Him. Sincerely, Chris.
alot of people support this theory---universalism which was taught for over 16 centuries above and under ground ----Rob Bell----Keith Giles----many many others .....when the millenials left the church it started a revolution that people are sick of the distortion of Jesus's teachings,,,,
I love this mans teachings
Hi, Rez Parviz. Thanks for your positive comment (4 years ago!). Dr Tim has so much going on. Check out the latest here, www.comeandreason.com/index.php/en/
Sincerely, Chris Harle.
Thank you so much brother Christopher, for the time and effort you give at uploading this videos. Dr. Jennings' views have been a huge blessing for my life. He really is a man of God, and the way he explains the Scriptures and the writtings of EGW, leads to a pure, deeper understanding of God's designed laws, specially His law of love :-) . Blessings and greetings from Mexico City. By the way, thank God and C&R ministries, I think that English as my second language has been improved (i guess:-P ) , with the help of our Lord.
Sincerely, Karla L. :-)
Dear Sister Karla. Thank You for your witness. Recently I have been recording passages of scripture and have not given time to Dr. Tim's videos. So as you can access more of his material I supply here a few links:
1) ruclips.net/user/comeandreasonmin
2) comeandreason.com/index.php/en/
3) comeandreason.com/index.php/en/bible-study-class/2018/1st-quarter
4) facebook.com/comeandreasonministries/
5) plus.google.com/u/0/+ComeandReasonMinistries
6) and lastly, from my RUclips account: ruclips.net/user/ChrisHarle48playlists?sort=dd&shelf_id=23&view=50
"Le pido a mi Dios que les dé a ustedes todo lo que necesitan, conforme a las espléndidas riquezas que tiene en Jesucristo." Filipenses 4:19.
P.S. I was blessed by your comments, so I believe Dr. Tim and staff would also be. Please send similar words to comeandreason.com/index.php/en/about/contact-information
more here ruclips.net/channel/UCi1TK0v65xLZoAto5o4TLjg
Could not have found him any sooner!!!
Hi, Jessie D. G. There's always much going on with Dr Tim's ministry. See much more at www.comeandreason.com/index.php/en/
Sincerely, Chris Harle.
I really love this message!!
Hi, Alfredo Castro. Thank you for your positive comment.
If its the subject you appreciate, then here is a playlist with more from Dr Jennings, "Pagan Christianity" ruclips.net/p/PLgl7ryoHplafwa23co128yJ7HwHMZu9Gr
If you would like more in general of Dr Jennings' teaching then here is a link to a section on RUclips, ruclips.net/user/ChrisHarle48playlists?view=50&sort=dd&shelf_id=23
Sincerely, Chris Harle.
life-changing!!
Hi, Gabriella Lopes. Your comment prompted me to put together video clips from Dr. Tim Jennings on, or relating to, the subject of Pagan influences in the Christian Church. See the Playlist here: "PAGAN CHRISTIANITY - Dr. Tim Jennings" ruclips.net/p/PLgl7ryoHplafwa23co128yJ7HwHMZu9Gr
Sincerely, Chris Harle.
The first time i heard Tim making a comment about sabath school lesson , i was in schock.It was so hard to understand that we had it all wrong about God.I also had old ideas that i had to throw away.Thank God for this messenger. Is there any way that his lessons can be heard in Spanish? There's so many people who need to hear this in Chile.Subtitles are not good enough, so the ideas are not understood exactly as he says.Please do something help South America.
Thank's Christopher Harle 1 of2. I shared this videos with my wife and daughter.I'll use the contact form after we see the third one.God bless you.
here the you tube site/ ruclips.net/channel/UCi1TK0v65xLZoAto5o4TLjg
Hi Alx Li. Just checked through the comments on my site and found yours again. Dr Tim does have some info in Spanish now (Nov 2020), www.comeandreason.com/index.php/en/languages-main/spanish
Sincerely, Chris Harle.
@@ChristopherHarle41048 Thank's again Cris. I have been looking to every sabatth school lesson in Come and Reason ministries, and shared with my sabbath class many ideas. Until i was acussed of "rare" and "strange teachings" by some members of the church. One day i was preaching ( Literally reading a letter word by word translated from english to spanish) a letter from EGW and only three church members told me that i had to stop preaching, because the letter from EGW should be checked by the pastor, before i read it from the pulpit. After i ended reading , a strange woman all dress in black, who was seating in the exact middle of the church, first and only time i had seen that woman in church, said to me :That the devil would not let her go to adventist church until that day. She could not get out of bed until that day, and she came to church. That's when i knew what had happened. Satan does not want the truth to be shown. But more sadly, is that many church pastors and elders think, and work in the same way. As an elder and a father responsable for my family, we decided to get out of church, because we could not think, or act with freedom. I still believe in God, and almost all SDA ideas . But many Wrong ideas don't let you show God as He is. So after i spoke and showed the things i found were wrong, i stepped outside with my family. And we really feel free and had talked to many more people about the different God i have found. ( I lived in New York state for three years since i was 10 years old, then i came back to Chile where i am from ,and that's how i learned some English) . I would love to see more Spanish content from Timothy Jennings...many people ask for more. Some times i can help. But there are so many ones that could be reached!!..THANK'S FOR THE LINK AND OUR GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
This is 7th day adventist teaching and I was a 7th day adventist for some years, love the people ,etc (i don't agree with soul sleep though) but they have some good teachings in general---I do agree with this one...christianity is full of pagan customs.......I did like the sabbath church too---refreshing....
Hi Angel, thanks for taking the time to comment. The Holy Spirit will guide us if we let Him (John 16:13 "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth". As for soul sleep, I find John 11 most compelling: "11 Then he said, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up.”12 The disciples said, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!” 13 They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died. 14 So he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead". Wishing you God's peace and hope.
Dead does not mean unconscious. There was another Lazarus who died and went to Abraham's bosom, for conscious enjoyment of paradise while awaiting resurrection. Paul said we can be absent from the body and present with the Lord, indeed he had a desire to depart from the body to be with Christ.
I agree with your rejection of "soul sleep" if it means unconsciousness or non-existence. Clearly the Bible speaks of God keeping us in conscious existence after death until the resurrection. I would suggest we should also question some of the other allegations of pagan teaching in Christianity. There is a lot of propaganda which should be challenged. Best wishes to you.
anselman We cannot compare fact especially provided by God Himself i.e. Jesus with metaphor in a parable. :)
anselman Please shoe us where "Clearly the Bible speaks of God keeping us in conscious existence after death until the resurrection" where is this ? I do not see it at all?
From about 23:30 onward, he is right to challenge a popular protestant view of justification & imputation of righteousness which denies the biblical truth of God's power to transform the Christian to make them righteous and victorious over sin. Be ye transformed.
Hi, anselman. Thank you for your comment. If you should want to listen to more of Dr. Tim then here is a Playlist about "Pagan Christianity" ruclips.net/p/PLgl7ryoHplafwa23co128yJ7HwHMZu9Gr
Dr. Tim has recently set up a new RUclips account which blends his knowledge of psychiatry with his Christian beliefs, "The Dr. Tim Jennings Show" ruclips.net/p/PLUNpkv1ODBsUl6xo8qF5qdL5gB23W9wQY
Sincerely, Chris Harle.
Thank you, Christopher. Best wishes.
"Those who would abandon any vision of divine violence at the cross, apart from having to ignore the Apostles’ own testimony about the event, will soon find themselves making a common error. As H. Richard Niebuhr said, liberal theology wants “a God without wrath, who brought a people without sin into a kingdom without judgment, through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” Ultimately, our desire to revise our image of God by removing his wrath is rooted in our desire to remake ourselves without sin. But a God without wrath is also a God without love and justice, and a people without sin are also a people with no need for a savior." ~Skye Jethani
Dear Pastor Bing. I reject "any vision of divine violence at the cross". Your two quotations are rooted in a distorted picture of God. I have followed your teaching on HinsdaleFilAm for many years and respect your Bible knowledge and your deep-rooted faith in Christ. Therefore, I hesitate to disagree with you - but in this case, I must.
I do not wish to engage in long disputations on RUclips comments; I feel it leads nowhere. I can only ask you to re-consider Dr. Jennings position. He is not denying God's wrath, he merely asks how does that wrath appear? Romans chapter 1 answers the question - God lets go. The NIV words it, "God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts" Rom 1:24, "God gave them over to shameful lusts" Rom 1:26, "God gave them over to a depraved mind" Rom 1:28. God gives us over or lets us go.
Here is a clip from a recent seminar by Dr. Jennings, "Who killed Christ, Satan or God?" ruclips.net/video/NfIp8Vhc8YY/видео.html.
I have a playlist on RUclips entitled "Angry god theology" where Dr. Jennings position is further clarified: ruclips.net/p/PLgl7ryoHplaf8Oe0ZArh951tDtXJKb4Ix.
You may not embrace this today, but I ask that you keep an open mind to the Biblical meaning of God's "wrath". Respectfully, Chris Harle.
Hi Christopher,
Appreciate your comment. I couldn’t help but respond to Dr. Tim Jennings' wholesale pigeonholing of any view of the atonement other than the “moral influence theory” as pagan, a lie and a fraud. Narrowly restricting the Biblical doctrine of salvation to one model to which he subscribes does violence (pardon the pun) to the entire testimony of Scripture.
Aside from a serious concern with his “eisegetical” hermeneutic, I’m also quite uncomfortable with his lumping committed Bible scholars in the reformed tradition such as John Stott and Leon Morris into the category of pagans, liars and frauds. In effect, Dr. Jennings has ironically used his non-violent stance to do violence (pardon the pun again) to the integrity of these spiritual giants of the faith.
His theological posture follows Dr. A. Graham Maxwell’s line of thought over the years. Apart from the classic Biblical treatments of the prism of the atonement in “The Cross of Christ” by John Stott and “The Apostolic Preaching of The Cross” by Leon Morris (both of which I assume you’ve read), the following Ministry article written 26 years ago provides what I consider a Biblically balanced treatment of the subject.
www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1992/03/the-moral-influence-theory
This extract from the Dr. Richard Frederick’s writeup is worth quoting:
“Moral influence teaching… places the legal atonement in opposition to a relational and educational model. In fact, both models are interrelated and necessary, just as a Christian marriage is both a legal (thus holy) and relational (thus loving) covenant. It is to this denial and false dichotomy that we now turn as we seek to offer a biblical response…”
I invite you to “exegete” the Bible as you read the article while avoiding the use of exclusive “moral influence theory” spectacles. I hope and pray that it tempers your regard for any perspective that does not align with Dr. Jennings as a doctrinal distortion. Surely, there was a plethora of Bible teachers and students before Drs. A. Graham Maxwell and Jack Provonsha, let alone Dr. Tim Jennings, who were illumined by the Holy Spirit with a Biblically sound saving knowledge of the gospel.
Blessings,
Bing
Pastor Bing, as I said previously, the RUclips comments section is not the best place to deliberate on theological standpoints. 1) It confuses the seeker for truth as they draw the conclusion, “If church members and leaders cannot agree what hope is there for me to understand”. 2) It gives a platform for sceptics to criticize believers, and although we can take this, it gives ground for unbelievers to withdraw themselves further from intelligent enquiry.
Allow me to briefly say that many of Dr. Jennings critics fall into the rut of thinking that he teaches Moral Influence Theory. The following video shows that he refutes this. He teaches the Healing Model of Atonement: Not only had we to be won with love, and God had to fix what was broken, but God had a broader and deeper purpose than just the salvation of humankind. He was solidifying His entire universe - all things in heaven and on earth are reconciled to Christ at the cross. “ATONEMENT - 7 theories” ruclips.net/video/ysTPncaK2XE/видео.html
May the LORD continue to lead us both into a closer experience with Him and a correct understanding of His Word for this time. Sincerely, Chris Harle.
Hi Chris,
When done respectfully, RUclips comments can serve as a strong witness to the Lord’s invitation to “Come let us reason together” to both the churched and the unchurched.
Dr. Tim Jennings’ “7 Atonement theories on the 7 scale Moral Development Model” derives from the psychological development models of Piaget, Erikson and Kohlberg. Building on their contributions, the theologian James Fowler wrote his landmark book “Stages of Faith” describing six stages in arriving at the meaning of life. As early as 1981, we’ve processed the concept in the Hinsdale Adventist Forum with resources from Loma Linda and Andrews University.
That background reveals that the model applies to the sanctification process and NOT the atonement. The “atonement theories” of the Bible are NOT STAGES BUT VIEWS! Superimposing a psychological structure on the Bible is clearly eisegesis, i.e. reading into the Bible. One risky consequence of failing to see this distinction is pitting the Biblical salvation models against each other rather than appreciating them as a refractive dispersion of the gospel prism of God’s character. Leon Morris’ “The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross” excellently depicts how thoroughly Biblical those redemption perspectives are.
Another danger in treating the Biblical views of salvation as competing concepts is affirming one while denying the others. This is unfaithful to the whole Biblical testimony. For instance, Dr. Jennings subscribes to his healing model at the invalidation, even aspersion, of the rest of the atonement views. This is the primary reason why I gave my feedback to his “Pagan Teaching in Christianity” video. Ad hominem comments, let alone an entire video, is inconsistent with the character of God we are trying to convey.
Couched in a psychological interpretation, Dr. Jenning’s non-violent theory of the atonement, albeit moral influence or healing, resulted in his deriding of any Biblical understanding misaligned with his as pagan, a lie and a fraud. I couldn’t help but respond to what I consider to be quite a condescending presentation.
Blessings,
Bing
Pastor Bing, I hope I am not troubling you. Today I found an article from the SPECTRUM, 7th June 2010, where Tim Jennings clarifies his position. Here is the link: spectrummagazine.org/article/news/2010/06/07/healing-substitution-model
Sincerely, Chris Harle.
Does Dr Jennings view the writings/visions of Ellen White as new revelations and hence the inspired word of God?
see, ruclips.net/video/vLQxX4ZJbPU/видео.html
Does anyone know the book written by St Alnselm which came up with the 'Jesus died for Sin' idea?
Hi again EcoWarrior. If you read the book “You can go home again” Paperback - 1982 by the Seventh-day Adventist author Jack W Provonsha (available on Amazon.com www.amazon.com/gp/product/0828000980/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) you will find an explanation of Anselm’s theology. However, Anselm (the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Canterbury, 1093 to 1109), is not the originator of the concept of Jesus dying for our sins.
The Apostle Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:3 “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures”.
And again Paul writes in Romans 5:8, “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us”.
And yet before Paul, the Lord Jesus said to the Jewish leaders, “23 … “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”” John 8:23-24.
And after Paul, the Apostle John wrote “My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation (appeasement, at-one-ment) for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” 1 John 2:1-2.
And in Hebrews 9:26-28 it is written, “but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”
According to the teaching of Islam Jesus did not die on the cross, for Allah deceived men into believing that he had been crucified. But in all of Christianity the life, death and resurrection of Jesus is the bedrock of our faith. I hope this helps. Sincerely, Chris Harle.
Um...pagan back then meant country dweller. I think he is referring to neo paganism which didn't exist back then.
He said Jesus' sacrifice wasn't a propitiation, but doesn't the bible specifically describe it as such?
Dear Mickey784cr. The problem isn’t with what the Bible says, it is how we understand the word used. Let us look at how the Greek is understood.
biblehub.com/greek/2434.htm 2434 hilasmós - properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) - both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").
Question: Why would a holy Creator be angry?
My Answer: Because Sin (the fruit of Lucifer’s rebellion) has robbed GOD of the joy of communion with His created beings (us). And, because Sin has robbed us of knowing GOD personally, resulting in lives out of harmony with His original purpose, leading to - well, just look at the sickness, violence and in injustice in our world today!
Question: So, was the Father pouring out His anger on Christ who substituted us?
Answer: Dr Tim would answer, “No, this view is Pagan!” (my quotation marks).
Question: What then?
Answer: Christ lived the life Adam should have lived. Christ thus became the second (and last) Adam. Through His perfect life humankind finds hope. In our flesh we are children of the first Adam and have inherited his rebellion. Through faith in Christ, the Spirit of God imbues us with the attributes of the Last Adam. We are “born again” and inherit eternal life.
Question: Again, was not GOD punishing His Son for our sins on the cross?
Answer: Many, many Christians believe this to be true. Dr Tim would say that Christ poured out His love unto death. He loved unto the end (“Father forgive them”). Satan was, and is, the angry ‘god’ - not the Father. Had Christ moved, even in thought, to save Himself, He would have acted selfishly (love is the diametric opposite of selfishness) and the plan of salvation would have failed.
“Yet it pleased the LORD (GOD the Father) to bruise him (Jesus Christ)” Isaiah 53:10. What pleased the Father? The same thing that gave the Son joy, “who FOR THE JOY THAT WAS SET BEFORE HIM endured the cross, despising the shame,” Hebrews 12:2. The Father knew that the only way for Human Beings to be brought back into harmony with Himself was to create a new humanity. The only way He could create a new humanity without destroying the existing race was to do this in Christ. Christ became the hilasmós - the, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. GOD’s anger was satisfied because now you and I, through faith in Jesus, can be brought back (through the Holy Spirit) into oneness with Himself (hence Christ’s prayer in John 17).
That’s my short answer.
If you want to look into this further, here’s a Playlist that might help, “SANCTUARY AT-ONE-MENT with CHRIST - Tim Jennings” ruclips.net/p/PLgl7ryoHplaccSeRWcuBHE4LBRAyfQ8dC
Sincerely, Chris Harle ruclips.net/user/ChrisHarle48
Not sure what he does with all of the Jesus was our propitiation scriptures then.
Hi, The Never Ending. The question is not what you do with such scriptures, but how you understand them. www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/propitiation/ offers ground to further understand, but does not fully answer the question. In the end, your view of GOD the Father determines how you render the word 'propitiation'.
Is it true that God's anger over sin was so great that only punishment would appease Him? Or can we understand it this way; God saw that Adam's choice had changed the very essence of humankind so that we were lost in trespasses and sins and could nothing else but follow the inclinations of our corrupt heart and the promptings of Satan. Jesus came as the 2nd and Last Adam. He lived the life Adam should have lived. He loved unto the end, even asking His Father to forgive His murderers. He lived and died in pure love. Now there is a new humanity, in Himself. This He gives to anyone who accepts His offer of acceptance, forgiveness and healing. When we accept Christ as our Saviour and allow the Holy Spirit to write the Father's Law of Love in us, the Father is propitiated, i.e. satisfied, and we are changed into Christ's likeness and fitted for Heaven.
I have put these words together rather hastily and they may not portray Dr Jennings' position. For now, accept them as an attempt to see salvation as a Healing Model, not as a way of quieting an angry god. Sincerely, Chris Harle.
Blasphemy! False teaching from hell.
Dr Jennings has more to say, "PAGAN CHRISTIANITY" ruclips.net/video/VX5BJYiBn_c/видео.html
Sincerely, Chris Harle.
Do you realise the trinity is also a pagan concept?
We believe in one GOD in three persons. See playlist ruclips.net/p/PLgl7ryoHpladkGUN5wjdDcSB0PkEnTwIn
Hi again, Christiaan Wildtham. In his latest Bible study Dr Jennings reiterates points he has made before regarding the Trinity, but adds a few more thoughts. If you care to examine this then the link is, "The TRINITY - All 3 have LIFE Original Unborrowed Underived - Dr Tim Jennings" ruclips.net/video/6JZ3d7K9Yq8/видео.html Sincerely, Chris Harle.