There's really no need to put it into a political dichotomy, because it's not conservatism, it's preservation. Preservation of a game millions of people love and find precious, which is changing in tangible and alarming ways that permanently alter its identity. And if you track the development history, the changes in hands with TF2 are nearly as obvious as with Minecraft. You don't have to be a "video game conservative"(?) to say that things done to a video game have made it worse.
Didn't explain it in detail in the video because I thought it'd be more obvious but basically; I'm simply drawing a fun parallel between the conservative ideal that individuals have the duty to upkeep "societal norms" to how Valve's absence has left part of the community believe that it is their duty to upkeep the quality of workshop additions and so themselves, which has in some cases gone too far, no longer making it preservation as it simply hurts the game and community further. I'm clearly in no way stating we shouldn't care for the game's style, gameplay, and history by suggesting blaming creators instead of Valve (who is still charging money to use basic chatting features) isn't the best direction to keep things rolling.
@@AzelleTown It's a broken system that people use and sometimes abuse. If we applied this same mentality to something more serious like the legal system, it wouldn’t hold up; imagine if someone exploited a loophole in the law to avoid paying taxes or skirt consumer regulations. Would you say it's "not the best direction" to criticize them because ultimately the government is the most accountable party? Of course not, both parties are complicit and it's fair to criticize both.
@@RichterOvertime It's almost always prudent to direct criticisms of flaws to those that hold 100% of the power to prevent and fix said flaw. This is not only reasonable, but holds up quite well in the real world.
It's 2024, you're being too obvious. No one falls for these tactics any more. Making obvious strawmen, lying, and arguing in bad faith this obviously does not work any more. Vomiting buzzwords like "conspiracy theorist" and "fear-mongering" isn't going to work any more.
Genuine question. How is asking for better quality of items and maps...is in comparison of being a "conservative" exactly? That's like if I ordered a drink or some food and it has some hair in it. And when I ask if you could remake the order you say "WHAT ARE YOU A CONSERVATIVE OR SOMETHING?" Seems like a silly response if you ask me.
Do not call me a TF2 progressive I am a proud Australian-Hispanic-American who plays team fortress 2, watches zesty jesus and votes for good workshop submissions that fit the game's artstyle...
hey however you're feeling right now, if you didn't want to get burned don't start the fire in the first place again please change and grow as a person
@@galaxy4dan514because those are literally the only updates we ever get nowadays and were some of the few moments of breathing to have without any bots?
Listen, I'm not the biggest fan of Zesty Jesus but you blatantly lie multiple times and make really bad strawman arguments and the video devolves into less of a rational discussion about conservatism and more of a "i hate zesty because he thinks workshoppers are manipulative and he doesn't think modern sociopolitical discussions belong in this video game so i'm gonna attempt to make a hitpiece about him" Please delete this video and/or apologize and try harder to make real points next time
All this is is just contrarianism towards Zesty Jesus, because he is Zesty Jesus. Instead of valid counter points to his arguments, you make up strawman after strawman and pretend as though team recognition, a core gameplay design feature, is a non issue, put words into your opposition's mouth and cherry pick clips from his videos. Very bad faith. Bad video. EDIT: Also one more thing, why is there this part with Great Blue that is made out to be "TF2 Cold War" or something? Like can one not goof about a ridiculous video anymore with an even more ridiculous joke? TF2 is not about politics.
People don't think tf2 should return to how it was in early versions of the game, People just don't want tf2 to become another version of a game we have that doesn't make sense in the context of tf2, You want prop hunt play gmod, You want a comp focused game play the 100s of comp tf2 community severs that are begging for new people to play on them, We don't need these to be added to tf2 just because it can be or because people asked, you should make the game be what it was designed to be, a casual 12 v 12 class based shooter with an objective, Just because something is fun doesn't mean it should be added, Minecraft trade server with moon gravity is fun, Does that need to be added to tf2s normal game mode rotation? no. I understand most people that see tf2 today is because they learn the game they like playing is "inspired" by tf2, Like fortnite's art style or overwatch in the sense of having multiple classes to play, but that doesn't mean tf2 is those games, tf2 is from a different time and no one realizes that because most games have to copy it because it was ahead of its time and people try to treat it like modern games when in reality its just as old as the person playing it. People want tf2 to be preserved because its one of the last remnants of these types of games, Most games to come out anymore is comp focused because they don't know how to make the game engaging for new people or care about them, Most people see that valorant is comp focused so they don't play it because of that, tf2 isn't comp focused, it never was until valve made a mistake by trying to make the game what it wasn't, and guess what, people hated it and it didn't appeal to anyone because it wasn't done right for comp players (no class limits and weapon bans) and casual players had all the community maps and weapons they loved die because of the update so they got mad from it, that's why people don't want tf2 to become what its not, every time they've tried to change it to fit "modern" game standards it wasnt liked or good most of the time if not every time.
Not to mention the amount of bot lobbies there were in competitive that made it borderline impossible to find actual players, but that's an issue with the game as a whole right now. Valve, for catering so much to the competitive scene, failed to keep up with and release consistent balances for their weapons and for some god foresaken reason added turbine to the map pool. They were painfully out of touch with competitive players even after the mode released
I guess in the strictest sense, wanting something to retain a particular spirit is a "conservative" attitude, but if that term is being used to dissuade people being labeled as such than you're being a poor advocate for the content you like. If all you have to say is "don't be a stogy conservative" then you're never going to appeal to anyone who thinks such content strays from TF2's spirit - the main thing that appealed to them in the first place.
I didn't really explain any of this in the video because I thought it was funny but basically: I'm calling this "conservatism" to draw a parellel between the conservative ideal that individuals have the duty to upkeep "societal norms" to how Valve's absence has left a strong part of the TF2 community believe that it is their duty as TF2 players to upkeep the quality of workshop additions and other similar things themselves, a sort of "TF2 norm" itself, Instead of holding Valve accountable for abadonning a product they are still charging for basic communication features. It can seem a little on the nose, but I've been seeing people call themselves "TF2 Traditionalists" and people who disagree with them "TF2 Progressivists" which I think is a little wild and strange o_o I hope that explains what I meant a bit better, I'm not arguing against wanting to keep TF2's spirit going, I'm trying to highlight those taking it too far, hurting the game and community as a consequence
@@galaxy4dan514 newer players don't know what the game was like at it's prime and compare it to newer games that are nothing like tf2 believing that to be the standard TF2 should follow as opposed to the standards it had in it's prime.
What a big nothing burger of a video, what exactly is your point here? Just shush away all worries and act like nothing is wrong? No one is saying that user content is a danger to the game's longevity; what it does is ruin the game's aesthetic and change it into something that isn't. Just because the game is still functional after that it doesn't mean we should be ok with it. How can you defend the community pillar so much but be against decals then? It's one of the maximum forms of player expressions out there, that so very few games permit. It's not unrealistic to think that Valve, if it were to moderate it, would directly just remove the function: it's not something you can police, that would require checking every single item in every player's account. Removing it completely is the most realistic choice. Also everybody here agrees that it's mainly Valve's fault that their standards dropped so much and they started to add garbage to the game, even Zesty, since you like to shit on him so much, said that multiple times. It still doesn't mean we can't ask higher standards from workshoppers too, because many of them clearly have the ability to make serious quality items and still decide to produce slop or items that simply do not belong, knowing full well, and taking advantage too I'd say, that Valve will add them without giving too much thought. If a system is broken, those that abuse it should also be held accountable.
@galaxy4dan514 the argument is that this RUclipsr is a tf2 tourist and doesn't give a crap about the integrity of the game and attacks others who genuinely do.
“Gaming Conservatism” and teem fortress 2 do not go hand in hand. But seriously, this video is deranged you need to get off the internet and figure your self out. Or your trolling.
Bro what are you on about they literally said the exact opposite of that, they said the mode should be changed and shouldn't be in tf2 in it's current state. How does one even misconstrue an argument that bad
Hey, just wanna let you know that I did not play TF2 or Minecraft during their "glory days". I was rather late to the party, only picking up both of them around 2014. I independantly came to the belief that "original" TF2, before all of the modern stuff, was objectively better. I like it when games have an identity. If you had actually done one single ounce of research, polling, anything at all, before making this video, you could have prevented making such baseless sweeping claims that it can be boiled down to "muh nostalgia."
Gatekeeping in moderation and criticisms is good actually, as much as many people don't wish to hear it (coming from someone that's worked on projects at least a bit of criticism towards ideas, concepts, or final products is often a requirement to make sure the end result is good). Simply put the issues of content additions are both placed upon people creating content who KNOW their items or maps have a chance of being submitted, as well as whatever staff may end up choosing the content itself. Both of these parties involved need to adhere to the original rules set out by the devs/art team when it comes to stylization for content being submitted to the game. Your opinions are valid, but I would definitely recommend that if you make a video with talking points about your opinions on a subject, definitely don't make a good chunk of it strawman points from another youtuber (not even because of who it is, but because in general having a structure like this can genuinely weaken your points overall in any essay or argument).
I just want to say that you are trying to be a bit more optimistic than everyone else, and I can appreciate that. There are good reasons to "gatekeep" the items in some ways (that might hurt the game's identity), but I cannot deny that the optimistic viewpoint that you bring here is good. Maybe a video that could use some better words, but with an optimistic view overall.
"Some people are doing this bad thing" But it's not the majority, why are you whining? It doesn't matter Given a finger, people will take the whole arm.
I'm in support of every kind of argument that would support the lifespan of TF2 and make the game feel just as how you play it ever since, but I'm against any argument that doesn't have any stand to put its feet on, or arguments that are made by literally no one, and sadly this video has both of those. Your arguments in this vid from start to finish are really weak and overall biased towards a certain agenda of the TF2 community that won't change for the better, and most of it are directly against one single person that has been sustaining the period of TF2 that makes the game the best ever since. Please look at the game from another angle and not about hatred towards any individuals because they say something that you don't like. "Why is TF2 still alive? What makes the game feels new despite having the most old-schooled cosmetics and weapon designs? Which kind of cosmetics/maps would make the game feel like it's its original quality?" And if someone has made this kind of video before, give the game another go and tell yourself what makes you love about this game other than the ones that everyone has been talking about ever since. Do not spread hate and biases, spread love and kindness.
Yeah, uh… homegirl… I’m gonna have to disagree with almost all of this video. It’s well made all things considered, but I can’t ignore the amount of just objectively incorrect things you said. Ignore the hate, though, and always strive to make better content. Unironically looking forward to the next video. :)
@@rubie_gubieit isn't necessarily clickbait as much as it is straight up misleading. The video talks about zesty jesus and at one point mönkey, but not other people who share the sentiment of what op would call "gaming conservatism" it's a video on why this person doesn't like Zesty Jesus and in trying to tag in "gaming conservatism" it makes the video not only highly unstructured, but unguided and let's face it, incoherent and uneducated. It should've been titled "my disagreements with Zesty jesus, and why I think he's negatively impacting team fortress 2" but let's be real here, the title is far from this videos only issues
I'm not going to pretend that I have a full understanding of what either your's , Zesty, or any other person of the tf2 community specific stances are for the game, but I just wanted to say that I appreciate your stance on the positivity of the game. The "positivity is toxic" mindset is in of itself, extremely toxic. Yes, some people will abuse that positivity for various selfish and nefarious reasons, but why have bad faith in everyone if the bad faith people of the community are in an relative minority. I'm not saying that as a whole the community should bootlick Value for doing the bear minimal, the game didn't deserve to be neglected as badly as it was / is, just that making statements that are usually done in accusation tones towards sub groups of the community isn't productive and can sometimes just make things worse. Positivity isn't a given, its earned. Also writing this up so that I can have petty bragging rights for making the predicting that this video will get reacted to by someone in the community :?.
@@heehoo3685 just kidding, I don't know, too hard to choose. I made the original comment mostly because I think the creator should talk about Bowie like they say they want to in the description instead of whatever this is. I do recommend Tusk by Fleetwood Mac from the same period.
@@MyScorpion42 For other recommendations Steely Dan - Aja Fela Kuti - Zombie Television - Marquee Moon Elvis Costello - My Aim Is True Jethro Tull - Songs From The Woods Here’s other great albums from 1977 that I’ve enjoyed. Marquee Moon is one of my favorite albums along with Low of the 70s.
While I do not think any real blame should ever be put on workshoppers for their 'mediocre' content that's let into the game, I worry that the counter culture to conservative tf2 takes things too far. Like you said, anyone and everyone should be able to post whatever they want on the workshop, but we have to be realistic with ourselves and recognize that workshoppers truly do hold a LOT of power within this community. Now, to establish some context, I think there's 3 major motivators for why people create content for tf2. 1. Potential compensation (whether money or otherwise) 2. The pleasure of making something for themselves or others 3. The pleasure of making something that will bring quality value to tf2 as a whole (Most obviously seen in community bugfixes) In Zesty's case, he wants workshoppers to prioritize #3 more than anything else, but the way he and his community handled arguing for its importance (conflating content quality as some metric of personal morality???) was so awful and holier-than-thou that it's *really* hard to offer any criticisms that come from a similar vein as his. I've seen many many workshoppers who have such an awful time showing their stuff anywhere else that they just stick to twitter (where the audience is overwhelmingly anti-zestyisms) and then come back to their actual workshop reviews and don't understand why their items are performing poorly. This is because, obviously, not all 3 motivators are going to line up! But I guess the part I'm struggling to grapple with is what are, as a community supposed to do about this? To claim that workshoppers shouldn't ever be more concerned with making content that's marketable than quality or that workshoppers should have a professional level understanding on the subtle minutea of a decade old game's design is silly but what else are we supposed to do to pilot the quality of our games content other than continue to nitpick about paint regions and thematic inconsistencies? I feel at a loss sometimes :\
I believe that last part shouldn't be something we as members of the TF2 community should have to be responsible for since ultimately, Valve, or whatever remains of the TF2 team, is in charge of picking and implimenting these assets into the game. No matter how hard we try to steer workshop productions or how high we try to set the standarts for creating maps and items for the game, the workshop is an open space on the internet for anyone's submissions. Even a regular culling of lower quality workshop creations wouldn't solve the issue because if Valve doesn't care about TF2 in the first place then we will still end up with bad cosmetics, unfinished maps and other broken items. Even on Valve's side of things with the workshop, there's really nothing they could do to fix the issue of these motivators, other than further reducing the money you can make from having items put in the game, which I think will always be vastly overestimated in many circles. I unfortunately don't believe that any amount of piloting from the community would have stopped Valve from creating the Winter 2021 Crate, or from adding Wutville. So really the only thing *we* can do is organize ourselves, speak out on Valve's abandonment of TF2 despite still charging money for basic communications features, boycotting crates to show Valve its consummers aren't pleased, and showing/helping out good intentioned workshop creators find their footings with TF2's style instead of shutting down new ideas. I hope this answers your question a little, even though I'm sure it's not the most satisfying answers (at the end of the day we're unfortunately powerless against and uncaring 6 billion dollar company :< ) Thanks for watching my video and taking the time to write out your thoughts on the matter so nicely! :D
I feel like this video wouldve been received way better if conservatism was just changed to fearmongering, even though they both are practically the same in this context
I have a lot I want to say about this video, but if it was just kind of a fun comparison and not a serious critique then it's not really worth the time. What i will say is that using Zesty Jesus (who is a transphobe and l*licon by the way!) and giving his arguments a place in the community is bad. at 14:08 you bring up his talk on user generated content, he only cares about this because he has a tf2 sign with a l*licon in-joke and doesn't wanna get in trouble for it lol. The conclusion onwards isn't bad though. I think most people would agree with the point that Valve is more accountable then workshop creators, but Valve isn't really going to do anything so blaming them again and again is kinda just a waste of time. Not saying its right to blame community contributors though.
Although I think your arguments are really badly constructed and you didn’t give the video enough research, keep it up. I hate seeing queerphobic harassment here. Honestly yes, i think this video is bad, but these people are worse. Don’t let yourself to them!
We aren't "harassing" this user for being queer, we're pointing out how much of a bad faith liar they are. That being said, I agree with the sentiment of your comment and hope that this user grows and matures enough to produce better videos in the future
@@Birds_In_Crime check the comments again. Mocking pronouns in bio or writing snidely suicide rate for trans people counts as harrassment bro. A lot of just commenting substance here, but good amount is just bullying
The amount of people complaining about "bad faith arguments" and then proceeding to say you're a troll or that this is bait or that this video is "deranged" or that you're trying to be the "moral mediator" of tf2 and that you should stop making videos and flip burgers is honestly disheartening, I'm not gonna pretend like this video doesn't have some problems, but to assume that a relatively small creator that doesn't even usually do video essays made this video with malicious intent in mind while criticizing them for "bad faith arguments" is so ridiculously hypocritical it hurts, like did they even read the description of the video?
"ignore the zesty fans" when 90% of this video is to just make strawman arguments and lies about him in an effort to defame his character. the fact that they even went to zesty's chat after he reacted to it on stream and make like a sarcastic jab at him saying "hahaha this was so entertaining, good night guys" more than enough enforces my point.
The dude is just outright wrong lmao. But if you’re drawn to that kind of content just for the sake of “le epic ownage” then I suppose you never cared about honesty
If you're only drawn to people because they spite people you don't like (and not even on valid reasons at that) then you're not gonna make any actual friends
TF2 conservative daily routine: 1 PM Wake up 2 PM to 9 PM Fear mongering sesh & slippery slope fallacy circlejerk w/ the boys 9 PM to 3 AM Anime starring high school girls marathon 4 AM Time for bed
always hated the "IT DOESNT MATCH THE TF2 ARTSTYLE!" arguments because those mfs will see something that isnt brown and orange and yell that tf2 is dead
It's so easy to spot someone who started playing after 2017 it's genuinely funny
There's really no need to put it into a political dichotomy, because it's not conservatism, it's preservation. Preservation of a game millions of people love and find precious, which is changing in tangible and alarming ways that permanently alter its identity. And if you track the development history, the changes in hands with TF2 are nearly as obvious as with Minecraft. You don't have to be a "video game conservative"(?) to say that things done to a video game have made it worse.
Didn't explain it in detail in the video because I thought it'd be more obvious but basically;
I'm simply drawing a fun parallel between the conservative ideal that individuals have the duty to upkeep "societal norms" to how Valve's absence has left part of the community believe that it is their duty to upkeep the quality of workshop additions and so themselves, which has in some cases gone too far, no longer making it preservation as it simply hurts the game and community further.
I'm clearly in no way stating we shouldn't care for the game's style, gameplay, and history by suggesting blaming creators instead of Valve (who is still charging money to use basic chatting features) isn't the best direction to keep things rolling.
@@AzelleTown It's a broken system that people use and sometimes abuse. If we applied this same mentality to something more serious like the legal system, it wouldn’t hold up; imagine if someone exploited a loophole in the law to avoid paying taxes or skirt consumer regulations. Would you say it's "not the best direction" to criticize them because ultimately the government is the most accountable party? Of course not, both parties are complicit and it's fair to criticize both.
@@RichterOvertime It's almost always prudent to direct criticisms of flaws to those that hold 100% of the power to prevent and fix said flaw. This is not only reasonable, but holds up quite well in the real world.
@@AzelleTown the majority of your video has been nothing but strawman arguments and cherry picking.
you are not on moral high ground here.
when a comment has more likes then the actual video, something is seriously wrong with the video lol
This feels more like a Zesty Jesus hitpiece rather than an actually interesting video, and a bad misrepresentation at that.
Wannabe breadtuber tf2 tourist. Likely joined the game in 2022 .... *yawn*
lol blud thinks deleting comments is gonna do shit
Excellent bait, enjoy your 5 seconds of fame
It's 2024, you're being too obvious. No one falls for these tactics any more.
Making obvious strawmen, lying, and arguing in bad faith this obviously does not work any more.
Vomiting buzzwords like "conspiracy theorist" and "fear-mongering" isn't going to work any more.
using "conspiracy theorist" to downplay someone's beliefs is like trying to use "you're better than me" to insult someone's skill
Holy shit it’s impressive just how many times you’re just factually incorrect in this one video
Genuine question. How is asking for better quality of items and maps...is in comparison of being a "conservative" exactly? That's like if I ordered a drink or some food and it has some hair in it. And when I ask if you could remake the order you say "WHAT ARE YOU A CONSERVATIVE OR SOMETHING?"
Seems like a silly response if you ask me.
I thought this video was about "gaming conservativism". not shitting on zesty jesus.
I am a proud TF2 conservative, and will vote for only the best workshop submissions for the upcoming Scream Fortress cosmetic election
Do not call me a TF2 progressive I am a proud Australian-Hispanic-American who plays team fortress 2, watches zesty jesus and votes for good workshop submissions that fit the game's artstyle...
holy bad faith arguments batman
hey however you're feeling right now, if you didn't want to get burned don't start the fire in the first place
again please change and grow as a person
Bait used to be believable
just admit it, you don't like Zesty lol
"TF2 Conservative" give me a break
"As a proud TF2 conservative, I believe the workshoppers aren't submitting their best..."
Claiming that Zombie Infection is what drove people into playing this game was enough for me to dislike the video.
When Halloween, Summer Update and Christmas came out in 2023, the peak of TF 2 players was high compared to other holiday events from other years
@@galaxy4dan514because those are literally the only updates we ever get nowadays and were some of the few moments of breathing to have without any bots?
@galaxy4dan514 *bots*
Listen, I'm not the biggest fan of Zesty Jesus but you blatantly lie multiple times and make really bad strawman arguments and the video devolves into less of a rational discussion about conservatism and more of a "i hate zesty because he thinks workshoppers are manipulative and he doesn't think modern sociopolitical discussions belong in this video game so i'm gonna attempt to make a hitpiece about him"
Please delete this video and/or apologize and try harder to make real points next time
Blud better put the fries in the bag
All this is is just contrarianism towards Zesty Jesus, because he is Zesty Jesus. Instead of valid counter points to his arguments, you make up strawman after strawman and pretend as though team recognition, a core gameplay design feature, is a non issue, put words into your opposition's mouth and cherry pick clips from his videos. Very bad faith.
Bad video.
EDIT: Also one more thing, why is there this part with Great Blue that is made out to be "TF2 Cold War" or something? Like can one not goof about a ridiculous video anymore with an even more ridiculous joke? TF2 is not about politics.
This video is genuinely terrible. It's honestly impressive
People don't think tf2 should return to how it was in early versions of the game, People just don't want tf2 to become another version of a game we have that doesn't make sense in the context of tf2, You want prop hunt play gmod, You want a comp focused game play the 100s of comp tf2 community severs that are begging for new people to play on them, We don't need these to be added to tf2 just because it can be or because people asked, you should make the game be what it was designed to be, a casual 12 v 12 class based shooter with an objective, Just because something is fun doesn't mean it should be added, Minecraft trade server with moon gravity is fun, Does that need to be added to tf2s normal game mode rotation? no. I understand most people that see tf2 today is because they learn the game they like playing is "inspired" by tf2, Like fortnite's art style or overwatch in the sense of having multiple classes to play, but that doesn't mean tf2 is those games, tf2 is from a different time and no one realizes that because most games have to copy it because it was ahead of its time and people try to treat it like modern games when in reality its just as old as the person playing it. People want tf2 to be preserved because its one of the last remnants of these types of games, Most games to come out anymore is comp focused because they don't know how to make the game engaging for new people or care about them, Most people see that valorant is comp focused so they don't play it because of that, tf2 isn't comp focused, it never was until valve made a mistake by trying to make the game what it wasn't, and guess what, people hated it and it didn't appeal to anyone because it wasn't done right for comp players (no class limits and weapon bans) and casual players had all the community maps and weapons they loved die because of the update so they got mad from it, that's why people don't want tf2 to become what its not, every time they've tried to change it to fit "modern" game standards it wasnt liked or good most of the time if not every time.
Died 2024
Born 2024
Welcome back In Praise of Shadows
Mercenary badge status?
Deleted
blud is too scared to get criticized for having a badge with a year on it lmao, bro literally has no spine.
Why doesn't valve called themselves a independent indie developer to not get no drama, are they stupid
17:51 valve comp died because it lacked restrictions, not because it was overly restrictive. Have you even played valve or community competitive ?
Not to mention the amount of bot lobbies there were in competitive that made it borderline impossible to find actual players, but that's an issue with the game as a whole right now.
Valve, for catering so much to the competitive scene, failed to keep up with and release consistent balances for their weapons and for some god foresaken reason added turbine to the map pool. They were painfully out of touch with competitive players even after the mode released
@@Birds_In_Crime the bot problem has actually been fixed for a few months now
@@evdestroy4121I said "were" as in past tense for a reason
@@Birds_In_Crime You also said "but that's an issue with the game as a whole right now"
"Right now," I assumed meant right now.
I guess in the strictest sense, wanting something to retain a particular spirit is a "conservative" attitude, but if that term is being used to dissuade people being labeled as such than you're being a poor advocate for the content you like. If all you have to say is "don't be a stogy conservative" then you're never going to appeal to anyone who thinks such content strays from TF2's spirit - the main thing that appealed to them in the first place.
I didn't really explain any of this in the video because I thought it was funny but basically:
I'm calling this "conservatism" to draw a parellel between the conservative ideal that individuals have the duty to upkeep "societal norms" to how Valve's absence has left a strong part of the TF2 community believe that it is their duty as TF2 players to upkeep the quality of workshop additions and other similar things themselves, a sort of "TF2 norm" itself, Instead of holding Valve accountable for abadonning a product they are still charging for basic communication features.
It can seem a little on the nose, but I've been seeing people call themselves "TF2 Traditionalists" and people who disagree with them "TF2 Progressivists" which I think is a little wild and strange o_o
I hope that explains what I meant a bit better, I'm not arguing against wanting to keep TF2's spirit going, I'm trying to highlight those taking it too far, hurting the game and community as a consequence
Hm, okay let's see your mercenary badge
Let me guess you're going to look at the medal and ignore the opinion because it's post mym
@@galaxy4dan514💯
@@galaxy4dan514 newer players don't know what the game was like at it's prime and compare it to newer games that are nothing like tf2 believing that to be the standard TF2 should follow as opposed to the standards it had in it's prime.
This has a lot of really bad arguments.
the shitporium isn't sending its best I see.
the chudporium will fall dramatically and none of them will survive the downfall
don't complain just consume product
Crazy this just turns into a hit piece partway through. Kinda like that "conservative horror" video that was just a hit piece on Wendigoon.
Remember this simple equation:
progress ≠ things getting better
What a big nothing burger of a video, what exactly is your point here? Just shush away all worries and act like nothing is wrong?
No one is saying that user content is a danger to the game's longevity; what it does is ruin the game's aesthetic and change it into something that isn't. Just because the game is still functional after that it doesn't mean we should be ok with it.
How can you defend the community pillar so much but be against decals then? It's one of the maximum forms of player expressions out there, that so very few games permit. It's not unrealistic to think that Valve, if it were to moderate it, would directly just remove the function: it's not something you can police, that would require checking every single item in every player's account. Removing it completely is the most realistic choice.
Also everybody here agrees that it's mainly Valve's fault that their standards dropped so much and they started to add garbage to the game, even Zesty, since you like to shit on him so much, said that multiple times. It still doesn't mean we can't ask higher standards from workshoppers too, because many of them clearly have the ability to make serious quality items and still decide to produce slop or items that simply do not belong, knowing full well, and taking advantage too I'd say, that Valve will add them without giving too much thought. If a system is broken, those that abuse it should also be held accountable.
This is just sad. Bait used to be better, you know.
Holy bad faith batman, this is IPOS vs Wendigoon level of bad faith and lies
>half an hour
>bad arguments
>lisp
>she
Holy Gen Z
You are giving worse arguments to deny an op
xhe is our vxlid trxns xister. le whxlesome!!!!!!!!
@galaxy4dan514 the argument is that this RUclipsr is a tf2 tourist and doesn't give a crap about the integrity of the game and attacks others who genuinely do.
@@Birds_In_Crime No the argument is "Haha she has pronouns"
Top ten zesty jesus slander videos
Make tf2 great again
Started playing TF2 post-MYM, opinion automatically rejected.
Hi chat Zesty is my daddy real.
“Gaming Conservatism” and teem fortress 2 do not go hand in hand.
But seriously, this video is deranged you need to get off the internet and figure your self out.
Or your trolling.
An actual example of “Gaming Conservatism” is being pissed that the new MC in the ghost of Yotei game is a woman.
@@pogenz9831 exactly
12:02 this mode that is not TF2 is broken when shoved into TF2, therefore change TF2. No
Bro what are you on about they literally said the exact opposite of that, they said the mode should be changed and shouldn't be in tf2 in it's current state. How does one even misconstrue an argument that bad
Never make a video again.
Stick to McDonald's
i love pancakes but that dont mean i hate waffles. is that too much to comprehend, azelle?
likes 41/108 dislikes
Communism? Bro it's a fucking joke dude
Hey, just wanna let you know that I did not play TF2 or Minecraft during their "glory days". I was rather late to the party, only picking up both of them around 2014. I independantly came to the belief that "original" TF2, before all of the modern stuff, was objectively better. I like it when games have an identity. If you had actually done one single ounce of research, polling, anything at all, before making this video, you could have prevented making such baseless sweeping claims that it can be boiled down to "muh nostalgia."
Huffing glue to this rn
Gatekeeping in moderation and criticisms is good actually, as much as many people don't wish to hear it (coming from someone that's worked on projects at least a bit of criticism towards ideas, concepts, or final products is often a requirement to make sure the end result is good).
Simply put the issues of content additions are both placed upon people creating content who KNOW their items or maps have a chance of being submitted, as well as whatever staff may end up choosing the content itself. Both of these parties involved need to adhere to the original rules set out by the devs/art team when it comes to stylization for content being submitted to the game.
Your opinions are valid, but I would definitely recommend that if you make a video with talking points about your opinions on a subject, definitely don't make a good chunk of it strawman points from another youtuber (not even because of who it is, but because in general having a structure like this can genuinely weaken your points overall in any essay or argument).
Please put the fries in the bag sir
This was not thought out well, quite a few strawman arguments that just fell flat
Big oof of a video my brother
This is peak grifter video, just gross man
0 likes award
*Bro, that game that was literally one of the best you ever played wasn't that good, it's YOU that changed* I sense a little gas lighting
I repeat, git gud or get real, this game is not your whole personality. Off with your useless filter.
77 likes and 214 dislikes btw
I just want to say that you are trying to be a bit more optimistic than everyone else, and I can appreciate that. There are good reasons to "gatekeep" the items in some ways (that might hurt the game's identity), but I cannot deny that the optimistic viewpoint that you bring here is good.
Maybe a video that could use some better words, but with an optimistic view overall.
my name is arcabe and i like to play in the mud and eat sand :) playing with my chicen toy
When bro deleted the funny reply
"Some people are doing this bad thing"
But it's not the majority, why are you whining? It doesn't matter
Given a finger, people will take the whole arm.
Keep the 25th Ward's music out of your garbage.
I'm in support of every kind of argument that would support the lifespan of TF2 and make the game feel just as how you play it ever since, but I'm against any argument that doesn't have any stand to put its feet on, or arguments that are made by literally no one, and sadly this video has both of those.
Your arguments in this vid from start to finish are really weak and overall biased towards a certain agenda of the TF2 community that won't change for the better, and most of it are directly against one single person that has been sustaining the period of TF2 that makes the game the best ever since.
Please look at the game from another angle and not about hatred towards any individuals because they say something that you don't like. "Why is TF2 still alive? What makes the game feels new despite having the most old-schooled cosmetics and weapon designs? Which kind of cosmetics/maps would make the game feel like it's its original quality?" And if someone has made this kind of video before, give the game another go and tell yourself what makes you love about this game other than the ones that everyone has been talking about ever since.
Do not spread hate and biases, spread love and kindness.
What's wrong with being conservative? Hahaha
"She/they"
no wonder your arguments are bad
23:00
>complaining about an obvious joke cause of communism
BOOOOOOO🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅
what
Yeah, uh… homegirl… I’m gonna have to disagree with almost all of this video. It’s well made all things considered, but I can’t ignore the amount of just objectively incorrect things you said. Ignore the hate, though, and always strive to make better content. Unironically looking forward to the next video. :)
i agree but the title should probably just be "zesty fucking sucks lol"
also not sure why everyones freaking out over the title, its youtube and someone made a click batey title big woop :p
@@rubie_gubieit isn't necessarily clickbait as much as it is straight up misleading. The video talks about zesty jesus and at one point mönkey, but not other people who share the sentiment of what op would call "gaming conservatism" it's a video on why this person doesn't like Zesty Jesus and in trying to tag in "gaming conservatism" it makes the video not only highly unstructured, but unguided and let's face it, incoherent and uneducated. It should've been titled "my disagreements with Zesty jesus, and why I think he's negatively impacting team fortress 2" but let's be real here, the title is far from this videos only issues
how to have fun with gaming:
1. download any nintendo console emulator
2. download roms
3. infinite fun glitch (especially with dolphin and yuzu)
careful, if you have too much fun with recent titles a mysterious group of ninjas will find you and slap you with a bill of millions of dollars
I'm not going to pretend that I have a full understanding of what either your's , Zesty, or any other person of the tf2 community specific stances are for the game, but I just wanted to say that I appreciate your stance on the positivity of the game. The "positivity is toxic" mindset is in of itself, extremely toxic. Yes, some people will abuse that positivity for various selfish and nefarious reasons, but why have bad faith in everyone if the bad faith people of the community are in an relative minority. I'm not saying that as a whole the community should bootlick Value for doing the bear minimal, the game didn't deserve to be neglected as badly as it was / is, just that making statements that are usually done in accusation tones towards sub groups of the community isn't productive and can sometimes just make things worse.
Positivity isn't a given, its earned.
Also writing this up so that I can have petty bragging rights for making the predicting that this video will get reacted to by someone in the community :?.
Low gotta be my favorite Bowie album, personally.
what's youre favorite album in general tho? :0 thx for the rec
Based. Low is a masterpiece, rest of the Berlin trilogy is great as well.
@@heehoo3685 Hunky Dory
@@heehoo3685 just kidding, I don't know, too hard to choose.
I made the original comment mostly because I think the creator should talk about Bowie like they say they want to in the description instead of whatever this is.
I do recommend Tusk by Fleetwood Mac from the same period.
@@MyScorpion42
For other recommendations
Steely Dan - Aja
Fela Kuti - Zombie
Television - Marquee Moon
Elvis Costello - My Aim Is True
Jethro Tull - Songs From The Woods
Here’s other great albums from 1977 that I’ve enjoyed. Marquee Moon is one of my favorite albums along with Low of the 70s.
🐶💔
While I do not think any real blame should ever be put on workshoppers for their 'mediocre' content that's let into the game, I worry that the counter culture to conservative tf2 takes things too far. Like you said, anyone and everyone should be able to post whatever they want on the workshop, but we have to be realistic with ourselves and recognize that workshoppers truly do hold a LOT of power within this community.
Now, to establish some context, I think there's 3 major motivators for why people create content for tf2.
1. Potential compensation (whether money or otherwise)
2. The pleasure of making something for themselves or others
3. The pleasure of making something that will bring quality value to tf2 as a whole
(Most obviously seen in community bugfixes)
In Zesty's case, he wants workshoppers to prioritize #3 more than anything else, but the way he and his community handled arguing for its importance (conflating content quality as some metric of personal morality???) was so awful and holier-than-thou that it's *really* hard to offer any criticisms that come from a similar vein as his.
I've seen many many workshoppers who have such an awful time showing their stuff anywhere else that they just stick to twitter (where the audience is overwhelmingly anti-zestyisms) and then come back to their actual workshop reviews and don't understand why their items are performing poorly.
This is because, obviously, not all 3 motivators are going to line up! But I guess the part I'm struggling to grapple with is what are, as a community supposed to do about this? To claim that workshoppers shouldn't ever be more concerned with making content that's marketable than quality or that workshoppers should have a professional level understanding on the subtle minutea of a decade old game's design is silly but what else are we supposed to do to pilot the quality of our games content other than continue to nitpick about paint regions and thematic inconsistencies? I feel at a loss sometimes :\
I believe that last part shouldn't be something we as members of the TF2 community should have to be responsible for since ultimately, Valve, or whatever remains of the TF2 team, is in charge of picking and implimenting these assets into the game.
No matter how hard we try to steer workshop productions or how high we try to set the standarts for creating maps and items for the game, the workshop is an open space on the internet for anyone's submissions.
Even a regular culling of lower quality workshop creations wouldn't solve the issue because if Valve doesn't care about TF2 in the first place then we will still end up with bad cosmetics, unfinished maps and other broken items.
Even on Valve's side of things with the workshop, there's really nothing they could do to fix the issue of these motivators, other than further reducing the money you can make from having items put in the game, which I think will always be vastly overestimated in many circles.
I unfortunately don't believe that any amount of piloting from the community would have stopped Valve from creating the Winter 2021 Crate, or from adding Wutville.
So really the only thing *we* can do is organize ourselves, speak out on Valve's abandonment of TF2 despite still charging money for basic communications features, boycotting crates to show Valve its consummers aren't pleased, and showing/helping out good intentioned workshop creators find their footings with TF2's style instead of shutting down new ideas.
I hope this answers your question a little, even though I'm sure it's not the most satisfying answers (at the end of the day we're unfortunately powerless against and uncaring 6 billion dollar company :< )
Thanks for watching my video and taking the time to write out your thoughts on the matter so nicely! :D
I feel like this video wouldve been received way better if conservatism was just changed to fearmongering, even though they both are practically the same in this context
I have a lot I want to say about this video, but if it was just kind of a fun comparison and not a serious critique then it's not really worth the time.
What i will say is that using Zesty Jesus (who is a transphobe and l*licon by the way!) and giving his arguments a place in the community is bad. at 14:08 you bring up his talk on user generated content, he only cares about this because he has a tf2 sign with a l*licon in-joke and doesn't wanna get in trouble for it lol. The conclusion onwards isn't bad though. I think most people would agree with the point that Valve is more accountable then workshop creators, but Valve isn't really going to do anything so blaming them again and again is kinda just a waste of time. Not saying its right to blame community contributors though.
Although I think your arguments are really badly constructed and you didn’t give the video enough research, keep it up. I hate seeing queerphobic harassment here. Honestly yes, i think this video is bad, but these people are worse. Don’t let yourself to them!
We aren't "harassing" this user for being queer, we're pointing out how much of a bad faith liar they are. That being said, I agree with the sentiment of your comment and hope that this user grows and matures enough to produce better videos in the future
@@Birds_In_Crime check the comments again. Mocking pronouns in bio or writing snidely suicide rate for trans people counts as harrassment bro. A lot of just commenting substance here, but good amount is just bullying
@@dominiklangiewicz689 is called transphobia not queerphobia
The amount of people complaining about "bad faith arguments" and then proceeding to say you're a troll or that this is bait or that this video is "deranged" or that you're trying to be the "moral mediator" of tf2 and that you should stop making videos and flip burgers is honestly disheartening, I'm not gonna pretend like this video doesn't have some problems, but to assume that a relatively small creator that doesn't even usually do video essays made this video with malicious intent in mind while criticizing them for "bad faith arguments" is so ridiculously hypocritical it hurts, like did they even read the description of the video?
you know how kids are
Wonder how many people will come see or support cause zesty
deadlock is a better game anyways
TF2 canonically takes place in 1984
Safe to assume this is a joke, because that’s easily verifiable as wrong
Fantastic video! No need to be so doomer about change, change is good! And its crazy to think that valve would straight up 1984 TF2
damn the comments on this video are crazy
the video is fine, though not the best, keep at makin stuff and ignore the zesty fans
Zesty fans will flood the comment section of any video criticising him and turn it into the most toxic waste dump imaginable
Go watch the stream where zesty watched this and try to honestly say this video is “fine”
@@jacksonboyd8630 No one's gonna watch a 2 hour stream of a manchild watching a 30 minute video
@@fonejunky6306 imagine trying to talk while being willfully ignorant. Embarrassing
"ignore the zesty fans"
when 90% of this video is to just make strawman arguments and lies about him in an effort to defame his character. the fact that they even went to zesty's chat after he reacted to it on stream and make like a sarcastic jab at him saying "hahaha this was so entertaining, good night guys" more than enough enforces my point.
I don't care at all about tf2 cosmetics but the response to this video is hilarious so I'll like and sub. Angry conservatives are funny.
The dude is just outright wrong lmao. But if you’re drawn to that kind of content just for the sake of “le epic ownage” then I suppose you never cared about honesty
If you're only drawn to people because they spite people you don't like (and not even on valid reasons at that) then you're not gonna make any actual friends
@@Birds_In_Crime You say that like I'm gonna live long enough to care
Good luck soldier
i see what you meant now lol
Ah, the other tfpooper that makes bad faith arguments and strawmans
wow... u really thought u could criticize my internet daddy.. zesty jesus!? le sigh (insert transphobic comment)
+1 emporiumcoin has been deposited into your account
TF2 conservative daily routine:
1 PM Wake up
2 PM to 9 PM Fear mongering sesh & slippery slope fallacy circlejerk w/ the boys
9 PM to 3 AM Anime starring high school girls marathon
4 AM Time for bed
"We don't need modern pop culture references in the game!" Dude there have been APPLE EARBUDS IN THE GAME FOR OVER A DECADE
That is not an excuse to keep adding more
If you saw a fly in your soup Is that an excuse to keep adding flies to your soup?
@@Birds_In_Crime 🪰🪰🪰🪰🪰
always hated the "IT DOESNT MATCH THE TF2 ARTSTYLE!" arguments because those mfs will see something that isnt brown and orange and yell that tf2 is dead
Dishonest and surface level take away
good video
Oh I can Hear the Whiny Zesty Jesus Fans already Lol