The book “The Origins & History of Judo” is now available on Amazon worldwide in English, French, and Japanese, not just the links below. You can search for it in the Amazon of your own country. Amazon EU: amzn.eu/d/bfEkJmQ Amazon US: a.co/d/dNyMInt Amazon Asia: amzn.asia/d/aRU8ZXn French version: amzn.eu/d/8SN3DNs Thank you all.
Anyone disagreeing with HanpanTV and Harasawa is not only bein contrarian for the sake of it, but they are being both obtuse and trying to claim some kind of moral high ground at the same time. HanpanTV and Harasawa are advocating for Uchikomi that is biomechanically sound and practical. It goes much beyond just judo. No, you don't need to pull high for your Uchimata, and you don't need to tuck your elbow under uke's armpit. You cannot reasonably create "kuzushi" in an opponent by trying to lift them with your rear and side delts, which are the main pulling muscles during traditional uchikomi for Uchimata. But that's the thing - to know this you need to actually have an understanding of the human anatomy and biomechanics, which again, is much more fundamental and essential than anything traditional judo can teach. This is ironic, because you claim you "must know the fundamentals" and "you must walk before you run", yet if you claim pulling up on Uchimata is the base, you actually don't fundamentally understand what makes the throw happen in practice. What's even funnier - there are several comments on HanpanTV videos citing several sources that the way Uchikomi evolved to be done this was is because someone along the way, one of Kano and Mifune's students, simply started doing uchikomi like that as a form of strength and conditioning training, not as an actual way to train the throw. They just didn't know better at the time and the benefits traditional weights training can have for judo. Probably thought it would make you stiff or some bullshit like that. The saddest things of all is that Chadi should actually watch all of Hanpan's video and try to absorb and apply real, biomechanically sound concepts in his training. Instead, he disregards them and will continue to suck at judo. I am glad I started Judo in my late 20s and coming from bodybuilding, since I was already a grown up person with critical thinking. In my first few classes, things just didn't seem right - why am I trying to lift a whole person with my rear and side delts? This lead me to doing my own research and finding HanpanTv, for which I'm super thankful. You have to see the look on national level players when a white belt sends them flying with Uchimata, a throw they thought to be the hardest one in their careers spanning almost 2 decades.
Another comment brought up a very good point. If the "base" for a technique is actually never done in a live, real scenario, is it the actual "base"? Or is the way it is actually done the true, fundamental way? Again, HanpanTV are advocating for uchikomi that actually helps you perform the throw in randori/shiai. When they were speaking with the girl that is a national player for Korea and asked her what is actually her purpose for doing uchikomi, she said it was to "warm up", and not actually train the throw, which is what many professional judokas do. Then they proceeded to explain that uchikomi should be treated as a tool for improvement, not just a warm up, but for this to happen, uchikomi must be done the way the technique will be performed in practice.
Yup. The amount of denial and copium in the comment sections has me convinced that most modern hobbyist judokas view judo as some mystical jedi art and need it to remain that way bc that’s what they like judo for. In fact, what’s alarming is that Korea responded very favorably to hanpanTV bc to them, judo is just a grappling sport and they just want to get better at it. But ironically it’s the western hemisphere that has more issue with their take. It’s freakin bizarre. Notice how many of these commenters are saying “ohh it’s bc we need to learn KUZUSHI”, like, what the hell do you think grappling is? All grappling IS kuzushi/off balancing. You don’t need uchikomi to learn kuzushi. That’s just something you get a feel for as you get better at grappling. You know who’s had the best kuzushi from everyone I’ve trained with? Wrestlers. And no, they do not do uchikomi. You learn the correct moves that make sense biomechanically and just drill drill drill with resisting partners. Also, congrats on being steps ahead of these people. Your judo will improve much faster the way you train. One thing that helped my judo skyrocket was ironically joining the wrestling team. Their training method is so efficient and effective. And yup, for uchimata, grab that freakin wrist, yank it down, lock it between your arm and clamp down your elbow and let it rip. Don’t do none of that 1-2-3 step while you’ll pull up the arm by the sleeve and “look at your watch”. Ugh this just irritates me so much lol
@@terrykim2748 You absolutely nailed it. I don't think I've ever seen another martial art where the people practicing it tell you that you basically need to have started when you were 7 years old or something, otherwise you have no chance to be competent and competitive, because the martial art is too "detailed and hard". Indeed they see Judo as some sort of mystical, magical art that the Japanese came up with, and you need to dedicate your whole life to gain enlightenment when you are already too old to actually be competitive. I am less than 2 years in, never having trained another grappling sport before, but people are stumped by how fast I progress. National competitors consider me advanced enough to often call me to their randori sessions, as they feel they can get a good workout in with me, even though I am a white belt. I've actually been asked by people I meet for the first time if I am taking the piss by putting a white belt on - they think I'm a black belt. I do not consider myself a prodigy or talented in any way. I am somewhat athletic, though I am quite strong and tall. What I absolutely am though is a grown up person with critical thinking that can tell bullshit when they see it, and will call it out. Just like HanpanTV says, "Question everyone and everything you see, until you verify it to be true for yourself". I wouldn't have an issue with these people if I didn't see the progress of other beginners being slow because of people like Chadi and other commenters on this video. People get absolutely disillusioned. You join a dojo, you train techniques for 4 weeks, you don't question it much because, come on, you are paying good money to be taught a skill, so it must be the correct thing, right? You then do your first randori and you cannot hit a single throw you were taught. You are not even close. Not only that, you actually end up with some pains because you are trying to "create kuzushi" by pulling up, so your delts are fucking blasted. You go to your coach or online, you tell about your experience and you are hit with the "You didn't create KUZUSHI bro" or "It will take a lot of time, X throw is very hard!" (you are trying to hit o-goshi lmao). Months go by and you are having ZERO success in randori, which is the only thing you care about (or any reasonable person should care about), because you want to learn applicable skills. Then you just end up dropping judo. The end result from such stories? Judo is successfully gatekept and will continue it's overall downfall, while people like Chadi continue to jerk off online about "muh tradition" and "fundamentals" (they have no knowledge about TRUE fundamentals), while having nearly zero applicable skills. Honestly, if this is the judo community and the way they want to conduct themselves, they deserve everything they get.
@@Bl2EAKINExactly. Well freakin put. What’s crazy is that the experience you just described is almost universal across the board, myself included. Judo prides itself on this notion that it has a steep learning curve and that only those who have sacrificed years of their time is worthy of learning its most basic skills, as if the students’ failure to learn is somehow hallmark of great teaching. Hell, in any other sport, if half the class/team is struggling to perform after a whole year, that coach would be reevaluated and risk losing his job. Honestly, the popularity of no-gi jiujitsu is the best thing to happen to modern judo bc it’s forcing a lot of advanced judokas to reassess their art and how it should be taught in an effective, practical way.
If competitors are literally never doing the "basic" form in randori then I'm not sure the basic form is actually the basic form. I think that's the point of their video, whatever is actually happening in randori should be the basic form. When the discrepancy between what's drilled and what's actually mechanically different the correlation won't be as strong as if you drilled what you actually did live. Also, I wonder if the oldest videos we have of Judo kata record this "exaggerated" kuzushi. That wouldn't been an interesting comparison seeing as how in some notable old demos and books they aren't doing or teaching that upward pull.
Yup. That’s precisely what they’re saying. So simple, yet so much denial in the comments section. Your “basic” form should always be how you’d actually hit it in randori. You don’t teach some weird version of blast double and tell the kids to hit it properly when they go live. In similar vein, your practice uchimata should resemble your actual uchimata.
I like to teach both. I always show the "classical" way a technique is done and then finish up with several randori-style versions. That way they know where the moves come from. I also emphasize that the big pull you perform on some uchikomis is an over-exaggeration of the technique to force you to power through when sparring with a resisting opponent, similar to swinging a baseball bat with a weight on it. I think I teach the big pull maybe about 10% of the time, if that.
@@terrykim2748When you started judo, you learned to fall - in a rather unrealistic form - compared to falling in randori. Uchi Komi is a way to automate 'contact' - the details don't matter. If you allow individual movements - the result might well be a chain of personal errors baked in from your former body experience.
I respectfully disagree that in seminar you can only teach the basics. If i am a blackbelt attending a siminar,which , in most case i have to pay money to attend. I would like to learn more than just the basic.
While it's true that you should train all ranges, I think many schools only teach that pulling upward motion and then let you do randori. Then during randori you try it how you learned it and it doesn't work. At least thats how it is in my dojo and it's giving me huge problems as a white belt. You should be doing both not only teach the uchikomi version and expect your students to find out how to do it right during randori... that's just wasted time, especially if your club only has 1-2 sessions per week.
Entendo seu ponto. E acrescento. Se nós observarmos o judô de alto rendimento, notaremos que as técnicas de nage waza com kumi kata tradicional quase não são usadas. Isso porque a forma tradicional se torna muito inviável em randori.
We can break down uchikomi and randorii into a list of pros and cons. UCHIKOMI: Pro: - easier to replicate - good warm up - allow focus on certain movements (the squat for seoi nage, head direction for sasae, leg position for ouchi gari etc.) - good judo specific work out (work out certain muscles, build a sense of balance when working with a person vs drilling on a tree) - provide a generic shape that you can start with -> ah, this is the difference between an ogoshi and an uki goshi Cons: - can't be easily applied to randorii or sparring -> waste time, it's inefficient etc. - distract you from things that work (kuzushi for this in sparring is different than in uchikomi etc.) RANDORII Pros: - live resistance training -> as close to real life as possible -> things that work here are more likely to work "in the streets" - good judo specific work out -> stamina, balance training etc Cons: - injuries/tiredness might prevent you from randorii but not uchikomi -> you can still do uchikomi - harder to focus on specific aspects like spamming seoi nage -> would not work on someone after the 2nd or 3rd time. - harder to drill certain reactions since each person react differently I'd like to bring up flow judo/scenario sparring as a bridge between the two: - start with a specific grip - tell uke to react in a specific way ("when I feint, do this so I can follow up with another technique") - still move around and provide resistance like randorii but without the full intensity - drill that for 5 reps then switch I think practicing these 3 together would be the best. They all have a place in judo 😊 On another note: - I'd love to hear a response video from Chadi on Armchair Violence. Some, not all, of his points make sense. We can build a more transparent and resilient community when we acknowledge our strengths and weaknesses. - For people who always say newer is better, know that the original founders don't have uchikomis but later students develop them. By that logic, shouldn't uchikomis be an improvement on the older methods?
I think you have a good perspective. I see Uchikomi as a sliding scale. Properly done, repetition for repetition, with no laziness, uchikomi is effective at helping beginning movement. The more advanced you become, the less effective uchikomi is.
I think the issue they are trying to raise is the "traditonal" way of doing uchi komi for uchi mata is doing unrealistic movements. You said it yourself, if you want to improve at playing a guitar, you need to learn the basics. You practice those basics and can actually apply them when playing because when you practice them, they are the SAME way you do it when playing for real. The issue is when we do uchi komi in the tradional way, what skills are we actually improving? I can apply "kuzushi" by pulling my sleeve hand up, but if I try the same technique in randori, that would never work. These skills we are taught are not applicable in randori. If we really want to improve our techniques, we should be using uchi komi to practice the techniques the same way that we would do it in a real scenario. You can argue uchi komi still improves your technique but I don't really see the value in practicing something one way but doing it with another way. Every other sport is consistent, we practice and drill the skills the exact same way we would actually do it. If you aren't, then you are only building bad technique. I wouldn't practice a basketball shooting form and then use a different form in a real match.
Well the argument is the movements need to be exaggerated in practice is exactly what karate says But we can make an apples to apples comparison with them being objectively worse fighters than people who dont train that way
I'm a godan and teach judo in an established jiujitsu school currently. Had a recent discussion with the head jiujitsu blackbelt (who is a great guy who truly wants to train and learn judo). He was confused by the uchikomi drills, particularly for ogoshi, but more generally had questions about why we train the way we do. Your explanation is exactly what i explained to him and something I've been saying for a couple of decades. Their jiujitsu curriculum has ogoshi as well as other throws, but they train them only situationally (as in, this is what it looks like most of the time in sparing). This leads to a poor understanding of the mechanical fundamentals by students who end up trying to force a situation so they can donthatbthrow they know. By doing the hard work, especially in ogoshi, which feels awkward to most new students, they teach their body how the throw works so they can be reactive to many more opportunities, adapting the throw to the moment because they understand WHY the throw works fundamentally. As a sensei, i try hard not to simply say, "this is how you do it." I show them the how and try to explain the why. Context allows students, especially adult students, to practice the drill without their mind being engaged in unhelpful questions as they're attempting to learn the technique. What i mean by that is that it removes the natural questions they might have, like: This is uncomfortable, i can't do this 29 times Sensei did it so much faster. Why did he tell me to do it slowly? - this won't work in a fight.... I've never seen someone just stand there and take a throw like this - that's not how we learned it in jiujitsu last week. -etc... By explaining the reasons for the way we train, older or cross-training, students will learn faster and enjoy it more readily
The idea that judoka *aren't* trying to force every throw via the tsurikomi action is funny to me. It's like your reasoning is correct, but you accidentally put your examples in the wrong order.
Kyuzo Mifune even when he was doing that 8 directions of kuzushi motion you never see him pulling the hikite upwards, so their point is still valid. Also the fact that you showed a clip from fluid judo Japan also further proves happantv's point in why it is impractical to pull the hikite upward. I am not against uchikomi in terms of repetition practice. I am mainly against how kuzushi is being applied in uchikomi setting vs randori. I am in favor for modifying uchikomi such that the way we do kuzushi in uchikomi is the same as we do it in randori.
I basically agree with the guys sending you this video. Techniques are taught to white belts in a certain way; not because that way works, but because it's the way that the instructor learned to teach. He teaches the techniques way he learned to teach them. However, when he has to actually use them, he uses them in the way that he has learned through trial and error will work best against the way uke really respond. White belt techniques fall into 4 categories: (1) Some of the techniques taught to white belts work perfectly against the way uke responded a hundred years ago (but not against the way anyone fights now). (2) Some of the techniques taught to white belts work perfectly against uke who are intentionally cooperating (but not against someone committed to fighting back). (3) Some of the techniques taught to white belts look cool, but don't really do anything useful. and finally (4) Some of the techniques taught to white belts are awesome, and are the exact techniques that work best for black belts. Part of your journey to advanced black belt is learning which techniques fall into which category. Some martial arts throw anything into the trash if it doesn't fall into category 4, and they steal other arts techniques when those techniques fall into category 4. Those are the martial arts that (not surprisingly) work best.
The beauty of the sport also being an art is that people constantly find ways to adjust almost disowned techniques to their own competitive game. Techniques that people said would never work and ways to do them that people said would never work. Personally I view teaching more like any skill practice where you start with the easily understandable basics that teach you fundamental concepts and patterns well, and over time you learn more pieces of the puzzle and towards the end of your journey you've learned to adapt all of it specifically for your own use and applying everything dynamically. A lot of people don't seem to view things from pedagogical standpoint and confuse teaching fundamentals with teaching highly specialised and adapted ways. You don't start basics by teaching things in a way a specific body and style applied them, you want to give people a general foundation for everyone that they can develop going forward. And to top it off a lot of people seem to view everything from power and result standpoint, but completely miss the journey and circumstances where they apply.
Kano said "maximum efficiency minimal effort" quite often, so if it's a problem to "view everything from power and result standpoint", perhaps we could fix the problem by avoiding his teachings all together? Personally, I think students have a much better journey when the moves you teach them actually work. Show new students a move, but don't set them up for failure. Set them up for success by teaching them setups that set the move up to work.
There is a great phrase used in karate "learn the form, break the form". Meaning, first learn the basics and the "formal" basic form, then once you master that, then you break the form, meaning you apply and you optimize for your style and each individual situation
But what are the rules of Uchi-Mata? Do you use it on an upright opponent and struggle to pull them over? No, you use it on a leaning, hunched opponent and aim to snap them into a cart wheel.
Meh, the point remains: BJJ, all wrestling styles and boxing and various kickboxing styles drill using movement deliberately as close to live work as possible. Judo and shotokan, among others?, have a tendency to pay homage to the kata gods or arcane movements, and then stuff that’s quite different when going live.
You’ve missed the point. Nobody likes practicing scales, but that is what gives you the scaffolding to play more competently. Uchikomi is exaggerated in order to practice kazushi, proper hip placement, and the movement in general. What you are suggesting is that throws should be learned against resistance right off the bat, which is not how you build good habits.
@@chcknpie04actually, new research is suggesting that learning scales isn't the best way to learn music. People learn by getting to play things for themselves, not by statically repeating things for teacher approval. The research showing people don't learn motions by repeating them in the air outside of game conditions isn't new, it's fifty years old and overwhelming by this point
I confirm that. I play piano daily, and I purposely AVOID playing scales because they don't help me to play songs. Chords do help me play songs easier, so I practice chords. In Judo, we need to practice skills which are very close to randori (just like how BJJ and Wrestlers practice!), otherwise, we train ourselves to use incorrect and ineffective techniques. Randori teaches us what is real and effective. Uchikomi is a way of developing what we learn from Randori into a solid feel and pattern without needing to take repeated falls.
I am not against uchikomi in terms of repetition practice. I am mainly against how kuzushi is being applied in uchikomi setting vs randori. I am for modifying uchikomi such that the way we do kuzushi in uchikomi is the same as we do it in randori.
Kuzushi in live fighting is nothing like static uchi-komi. Your opponent is not going to just be there for you to pull, they're going to move around in ways and its that movement that gives you kuzushi. You will never hit Uchi-Mata on a guy standing tall and statically. You hit it by catching your uke bending and leaning into you. So why pull forwards? Just snap them right down!
I’m probably one of the biggest proponents of doing things with a purpose. I’m still 100% against kata, and for a time I saw no point in uchikomi. But let me tell you, uchikomi is one of the most important things. Everyone I’ve met in Japan has said “when I do a lot of uchikomi I hit more throws”. I definitely feel it myself these days too
I am hopelessly addicted to my Uchi-Komi warmups. Gotta do them with the warmup. But I try to treat the Tsurikomi movement as its own thing, just a way to prime myself for Judo. My actual uchikomi for moves actually replicates how I apply it in randori.
6:05 I think you need to fix the audio there. I believe the exagerated kuzushi serves an educative purpose for teachers as well. The student can see the teacher apply kuzushi, but I also think it helps the teacher to visually check if the student applied kuzushi. For me though...it really hurts my shoulders to "look at my watch" with my hikite hand. I use my tsurite hand and hips more. I should ask my teacher why he teaches this way though
Chadi, have you considered that you don't have access to how they really train their throws at professional level? I think partially this is done in closed sessions and partially generic via randori. Maybe there should be some steps: lets do the uchikomi as in kata, then advanced lets do it/ train it for competition (advanced level)
I find these sorts of takes generally come from people already chest-deep in martial arts and somehow have forgotten they are in a bubble. What he’s essentially arguing here is similar to if a language teacher told you to “just read books in the target language from the start, that’s how it’s done in real life.” Except that’s an absurd thing to try and promote to a beginner or intermediate learner. While they could theoretically grind through a text, it’s generally just a waste of time. Yes, there may come a time when a Judoka evolves beyond basic Uchikomi, either developing his own or maybe just pumping out a few reps for warmup. However, it seems to me that HappanTV has forgotten here that the videos he cites are directed at the vast majority of practitioners who are beginners just on pure statistics alone. Even in the dojo, there will always be significantly fewer black belts than beginner to intermediate students. It’s my opinion that this is sort of riding on the coattails of a trend that is a massive disease in the martial arts space in which everyone wants to skip basics, “just roll,” and feel like they are reversing “stagnant” traditions… usually without ever considering if those traditions have utility or not. Innovation is great, but trying shift a paradigm “just because” is self-defeating. People just don’t want to swallow the bitter pill that is the fact that there are no shortcuts or hacks to any of this stuff. If you’re advanced enough to not adhere to basic Uchikomi, go for it, but these videos likely aren’t aimed at you. Similarly, a seminar led by Maruyama is OF COURSE going to show his particular stuff because it’s HIS seminar… it’s not the “Maruyama teaches the basics of Judo you can get anywhere” meetup. Uchikomi and a Judoka’s relationship to it is a progression. And a personal one at that. Judging the alphabet for not being Shakespeare is nonsensical. (Came out of vacation to write this comment, ccI’m going back now lol)
didnt your video on sumi otoshi praise mifune for "cutting out the fat"? like that was the whole premise (or at least catalyst) of that video wasnt it? you mention learning language, and although reading a book is a bit extreme, a lot of language is learned conversationally and through context (ie ecologically) now a days. I would say this approach of learning the basics is closer to "just read the books..."
@@Adam-bu3lm his argument stands. if you try to only learn a language by conversation, you won't know how to read or write it, you won't have fully learned it.
@@joatanpereira4272 lets not get crazy with the analogy. learning how to read menus and fill forms is encompassed in contextual language learning. *principles* > *basics* its more important to learn the principles of fighting over the basics of a throw. if kuzushi, being a principle, is understood the throws will flow no matter the range or circumstances. basics don't cover every circumstance - principles do.
@@Adam-bu3lmThe issue is that you cannot cut out the fat if you don’t know where it is. Yes, I find Mifune’s Sumi, as an example, to be a sleeker approach, but he only got there by studying everything that came before it. My video, as most of my stuff, is much more directed at people who have been doing martial arts for a while. Maybe as a different example here: historians, when writing scholarly work, have to do a historiography. They need to be acquainted with (at least) the broad strokes of the field and topic since it began. Throughout that section, they express how the field has shifted through each subsequent researcher and, finally, how their own work will contribute to that lineage of scholarship. While I’m not suggesting with this that the Judoka needs to go out and learn every single variation of Uchi Mata… would he not be a better Uchi Mata specialist for doing so? He will learn the idiosyncrasies of the technique, it’s technicians, and what each type can offer his own style and body type. The issue here is that everyone seems to want a straight line to getting a technique to “work,” but that’s not really how growth in any field actually functions. Beyond that, there are some individuals like Ono Shohei, for example, who should be studied, but whose Uchi Mata is likely beyond replication for most mere mortals. The point here is that, yes, we should cut the fat out of techniques and personalize them, but that takes study. You need to do a survey of the field and that starts with the building blocks of said field. For Judo, that’s Uchi Komi.
@@joatanpereira4272This is 100% correct. The whole “ecological learning” concept really only kicks in when you have enough grammar, vocabulary, syntax, etc. to engage with a language. Toss a beginner into a boxing ring with a pro and ask him to “ecologically learn” and he’ll quit awfully quick. I’m all for the ecological learning approach, the issue is that many of its strongest advocates suggest it’s a REPLACEMENT for basic, deliberate instruction when it is, in fact, and intermediate stage supplement to learning. I’m pretty comfortable standing by that assertion, too, teaching language is my actual day job. We have this whole notion of “comprehensible inputs” in language, basically meaning that you need to understand about 85 to 90% of material for ecological learning to be effective on that remaining 10%. Understanding context is what allows ecological learning to be effective. But you have to be educated in that context first, hence the basics, as you point out.
It's not just 'uchikomi vs. randori'. It really is uchikomi vs. how they actually do it, even in presentation. Unnecessarily confusing is what it is. They put emphasis on such details as 'looking at your watch' during practice, when it actually never is done. That critique is absolutely justified.
Na minha visão falta um pouco de transição ao falar sobre uchi komi e randori. É normalmente trabalhado de forma muito isolada. Ao invés de pensarmos no uchi komi como a teoria e no randori como a prática.
Pleased to see Fluid Judo uchimata dissection here. I love uchimata and while training at a new Dojo Sensei insisted on traditional kuzushi and I was thinking 'Yeah, for practice but in randori you just cant lift and pull your opponent in that manner'. That's a thing with Judo, sometimes it entangles way to much on tradition instead of what it works in a fight. I love kata, tradition, phylosophy and all, but at the end of the day you must learn how to fight and defend properly... If someone attacks me on the streets I'll 100% go for Fluid Judo uchimata instead of Kodokan version haha.
Also of note is that in uchikomi, uke is upright and has their sleeve arm pulled up to unbalance them and consequently pull them down and flip them over for the uchi mata. In competetion, that's unnecessary since in these examples, uke is already bent over, so half the battle is done for tori anyway so they can just pull the sleeve arm downward; pulling them up just to be pulled down again would be dumb and a waste of effort.
@@tristanjones7682 white belt is level 0, everyone is a white belt until otherwise Saying "unranked" is the language grifters use. Same energy as "Im good enough to be a pro if I wanted to, I just don't want to" "I'm unranked but I'd be at least a purple belt if I wanted to get ranked" *proceeds to get his clock cleaned by a 1 stripe blue belt*
Judo is a martial art, the aesthetic beauty of Kata serves the martial artist who seeks perfection of movements, martial artist can't escape of seeking perfection of movements.
Some people are looking at this the wrong way.In my opinion, We learn the waza the way that we do as beginners to know what to aim for in randori. Of course, additions or minimalisations will be created to make the move easier or more pracitcal for you,(based on your body type), But you walk away from first learning the move having seen and understood the standard that it CAN be executed at, the best case scenario,and you train your body and your mind for that. and from then on you have something to work towards- perfecting your technique in your journey. It's the same with a closed guard armbar in bjj. You never face the resistance when first learning. But thats not to say you cant pull it off when the opponent adds alot of pressure. You are just adapting to that pressure, which is part of the essence of these respective Martial arts.
The debate is whether or not if certain techniques are being shown in a competitive essence or a performative essence. Chadi I think what you and a lot of people are not taking into account is the performative nature of east Asian and specifically Japanese culture. After all there is ART in martial arts. Look at Japanese tea pouring rituals. You can't tell me having to pull up your sleeve and holding the teapot at a certain angle while having your body be very rigged is the most effective way of getting tea in a cup. Competitors want to know the best way to get the tea in the cup, not necessarily what's the most aesthetic.
Armchair Violence and some comments here claim Judo is not as important as BJJ and wrestling when it comes to real fighting. Yet the views on my 'Real of Footages of Effective Judo in Street Fights' video skyrocketed to about 900 in 4 weeks. It feels like the internet tends to gaslight Judo people for some reason.
I did exaggerate my movements for Uchi-Mata... but I did with live randori form. And you know what? I was able to ippon two guys in comp because I didn't waste time with the tsurikomi motion. I simply felt them going down and pushed them down in the most natural way possible. Maybe the traditional style works for Judoka who train since childhood and could layer on hours of training... and even more randori where they do it using real form. But for late comers, I think its a waste of time to teach this way. I keep my Tsurikomi Uchikomi as just a warmup, and train my throws like I use them live.
I did enjoy the presentation! I apologize for sending you the video. :( I do think that when you are training the average recreational judoka, which is 95% of judokas, who only train 2 to 3 times a week, you should be more direct with instruction of technique, They don't have the same time of self-discovery as someone who starts at 5 years old training most of the days a week. Also, why is Judo so unique in teaching this way? Boxing, kickboxing, every form wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, Bokh or any art/sport that spars? I did not like the title either, for I have a deep belief in the "basics" when it comes to techniques. Training methods are another thing entirely. We should always be striving for a "better way", avoiding the disease of "because it's always been done that way". (I'm glad Kano never suffered from that) Again, wonderful presentation as usual. We should not always have to agree. But we should always listen. Growth.
similar problem has been brought up for kendo years ago, ie why do the wide long swing when the short narrow one is what is used in shiai, whether training or competition. and yes many people defended the wide one with similar reason as stated in this video. but a lot also rebuked them saying the mechanisms of the wide and narrow are different, including the body parts and muscles used, the strategy, the timing etc. think of boxing cross punch vs jkd 1-inch punch, that's how different they are. meaning both swings should also be taught as basic practice instead of focusing on one only and expecting the students to "realize" how to do the other. nowadays, we can even see schools that teach wide swing only for warm up and kata, and focusing on narrow swing for drills etc.
If I go to a seminar from a world class musician and they have everyone do the same scales and arpeggios that everyone has already done a million times, I would ask for my money back. I'm not going to a Judo seminar to learn fundamentals that I can learn anywhere.
What surprised me more about the armchair violence video were the judokas in the comments that practically agreed with him. Essentially saying “you’re right our martial art does suck” and taking it.
Armchair Violence has been right about several topics, I think, but he doesn’t produce the best content when he’s clearly talking about something he doesn’t actually practice. I suspect a lot of the people nodding along with him in the comments probably were already fans and didn’t really think much more deeply than that.
In The Art of Learning, by Josh Waitzkin (incidentally also a black belt in bjj under Marcelo Garcia) he talks about the principle of "making smaller circles". I think what you are showing here is exactly that. Getting to distill the movement is an end-point, not the starting point
I remember my teacher back in Hong Kong, I asked him why we need to practice big movement while it is impossible to do in randori. He said when you practice you do 110% and so when you do it in randori it will get discounted into 60%. If you practice it at 60% or even 50%, when you fight then you can't do shit. That's why when we practice we always "over do" the big movements.
This has nothing to do with in practice you do 110% and in randori you do it at 60%. Why not just practise like how you would do it in randori with exact movements?
Again, this isn't the point. It's not exaggerated, it's moving in the wrong direction. Practicing at negative %110 can't be anything but developing bad habits.
The problem presented by the other video is understandable, and the response perhaps a little hasty. As to whether an experienced judoka ever needs to continue to do uchikomi once proficiency is acquired, is probably more philosophical. I don’t think that advanced athletes NEED to continue doing basics, but I think they often chose to. If you’re going to teach it’s good to maintain an understanding of fundamental process to pass it down to new athletes, but is it necessary to maintain high level proficiency? Not in my opinion. The same is true with any other sport. I think there are perhaps more advanced methods of training that enter in which better serve the advanced athlete (judoka in this case). This video brought up some key points that made me consider / reconsider training methodology and concepts. Namely, the exaggeration of movement in fundamentals. With basic uchikomi, for example, there is no struggle. The Nage is cooperative, with some aliveness, but also the throw is not being completed. Randori isn’t that, but the process of getting to position is important, and the best way to get in the repetitions to build a neurological map of that technique (movement pattern) is the cooperative movement of uchikomi. Advanced skill requires a resisting opponent to build the strength, speed, response, timing, etc., that you will encounter in a fight. The way you train is the way you perform. Performing uchikomi as a calorie burning exercise and not as a fundamental mental mapping process for movement is what really trains people to be bad at movement. Just my two cents. Thanks for the video!!
Jigoro Kano himself explained that koshi techniques are tsurikomi-based but one guy makes a video that just makes a lot of noise based on a poor movement analysis
This reminds me of the judoka I see so often saying that kata is useless. I even heard people who sort of practice Judo say, "Oh, that is not "real" Judo, "real" Judo is fighting." Listen to modern US judoka talk when either Ju no kata or Koshiki no kata are being performed. There are always some who claim that it is not "real" Judo. I no longer even discuss it with them. I just pity them.
Uchikomi and Kata are the two most misunderstood things in Martial Arts. The reason you do both of them the way you do is simple: You need to learn how to walk before you can run. When doing either you are working on your basic form. You are seeking to do the move as close to perfection as possible without resistance. If you can't do it without resistance, you won't be able to do it with resistance.
but why don't we train both the same way? why do we train with optimal kuzushi during drills when we use throw using suboptimal kuzushi most of the time? maybe at first when just learning the throw makes sense, but training the same way after getting the throw?
@@pablogonzalez2009 I hear what you're saying. After watching the entire video on Hanpan's page, I think that was their point. If you're mindlessly doing Uchikomi as part of your warm up, they won't really give you much. There is a point which you have to add some movement to your training. However, if you are using Uchikomi to refine your form, they can be useful throughout your practice.
All of that is ignoring the problem. The way we make people do uchikomi is wrong, so they are striving to perfect a movement pattern that is useless. You know the saying, practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.
@@sevasentinel4146 That makes no sense to me here. Uchi-Mata's rule is not to belt it out on an upright opponent- in fact doing so is a terrible idea. The way I was taught it actually made more sense and gave me a working Uchi-Mata.
Modern uchikomi is a problem. The exaggerated pull is completely worthless in practice and to my mind never existed in the original techniques. If you read Dr. Jigoro Kano's own textbook "Kodokan Judo", which for some reason everyone forgets exists, there is no mention of these large movements in the description of the techniques and their is nothing that looks like them in the images of the techniques. What is pictorially shown in every technique and what is discussed in every technique is movement! Uke is never just standing in one place and getting thrown. Uke is always being lead into a throw, even if it's Tori making Uke step from a right natural posture into a normal (feet parallel) natural posture before executing a koshi waza. Modern uchikomi is additionally debilitating because it doesn't train Kuzushi at all. It only trains Tsukuri and Kake , and does a poor job of training Tsukuri as well. Here's a concrete example. Take Uchi Mata. In the book Kodokan Judo, a right sided Uchi Mata is described as a technique that is applied as Uke is shifting their weight to the leg that is being attacked; Uke's left leg. This is called out explicitly. If you are trying to practice such a throw to a static partner it will always fail unless it's changed to a different throw. Why is this? If you grab the collar sleeve grip and turn to your left to enter for the throw, this movement alone forces Uke's weight to shift from both feet to the leg that is NOT going to be attacked by Tori. Tori then tries to reap an unweighted leg. Exactly the wrong thing is being practiced. Now add to this the "modern" update of an elbow in the armpit and a large upward pull being applied to Uke and you are 100% guaranteed to unweight the leg you want to reap. So, modern players then change to a ken-ken style or switch to attacking the leg they just weighted with the modern "hane-uchi mata hybrid". The off-balancing that is occurring is incorrect in that it forces Uke to shift their weight to recover their balance to the wrong leg. The Tsukuri is incorrect in that it forces Tori to change his attack to something that is no longer correctly classified as Uchi mata. Quite the improvement over movement based practice!
Bonjour Chadi. Je vous écris en français parce que je crois comprendre que vous êtes francophone. Merci pour la qualité de vos vidéos, votre érudition et votre pédagogie. Je cherche en France des entraînements en judo No Gi, en vain. J'ai compris que le problème repose notamment sur une question d'affiliation à telle (judo) ou telle (lutte) fédération. J'ai donc cherché des clubs de lutte alentours qui utilisent des projections de judo. J'ai aussi contacté les différentes fédérations : question restée sans réponse. Même pas une piste. Je crois que je vais passer une petite annonce pour des cours particuliers. Avez-vous une idée ?
Same goes with JoshBeamBJJ, He thinks that sparring can increase the knowledge but not uchikomi. The main purpose of uchikomi is repetitions, to make it better and make muscles memories. Someone that good at uchikomi, can do throws far better than someone who dont.
@@anton8267 The high level Japanese don't do much Uchi-Komi, you can see it for yourself. They will do it traditionally for like ten minutes, and then they will just spar A LOT.
@@MatthewNguyen-zx3de Korean and Japanese did Uchikomi for 30 minutes straight and with 1.5 hours of Randori. So yeah, 25% of their training is Uchikomi.
Great video. You nailed it on the head when you said FRAMEWORK. Kuzushi and Tsukuri for a compliant Uke are different for one who is sparring/competing. But the throw is the throw.
Armchair is the lowest-quality fighttuber there is. His channel is a long streak of L's. Name a bad take, and he has made a video on it. I don't know how anyone watches him.
People do not know the idea behind uchi-komi. Some think it is a kind of weight lifting exercise, but it is not. It is about honing your skills, about how to coordinate your whole body in a fluid way. For this you neeed an Uke who does not resist. In Randori your opponent is not cooperative and does not want to be thrown. So, Randori is all about creating chances, where in a split second you can make an attack. For Uchi-mata you need to create a situation where Uke leans slightly forward. Hence the hikite does not have to go upwards. It is also not possible to get the pull upwards because Uke resists. You create the situation by feinting an other attack or wait for a stupid move of uke. Once you can enter it is important that you get the rotation by keeping the hikite close to your close. You cannot do fast repetitions of tenri style uchimata (as shown by fluid judo). This is another way to create an chance to enter, when you are bigger than your opponent. To hone your movement you need the classic form.
I would make a comment about the big movements. The movements look smaller in sparring vs uchikomi because your opponent is resisting. The effort to make the big movements is still the same
@@biggrrrlbjj5833 I have. If I tried to use the forward pulling Tsurikomi motion my technique fails because I'm trying to rip it from them rather than directly pulling them towards the direction they're already going. Uchi-Mata is best done on hunched opponents. Its not worth yanking them back up just to get your elbow down- just push them right over and pull them down!
we make the technique look beautiful on purpose in Kata, An experienced fighter knows that in reality it is different but not everything about martial arts is about fighting.
Regrettably watched the 'arm share violence judo' video and want that time of my life back. Sadly, he has some points about Olympic Judo and where it is now... But then again, I learned Judo mainly as a beginner in the 1980/90ies, so proper Judo with leg grabs. I also always looked up to the Judo of the 1930ies, which is to me, the zenith of our martial arts power. As it was intended by Jigoro Kano. It also works great in tandem with full contact karate. This guy 'arm share person' knows less about martial arts in general and grappling in particular than a weeb doing Tekken, Mortal Combat and Double Dragon on the PlayStation. He is the prime example on why there should be a restriction of kinds on freedom of speech, especially when he is broadcasting lies and defamation.
I watched a Mark Huizinga (olympic gold medal Sydney 2000 in -90 kg) documentary where he says he would often do 1000x uchi komi in one session. He also won the national IQ test live on TV in the Netherlands so he is very intelligent (IQ>130 I believe). If a highly intelligent olympic champion recommends it, I would say there is something to it.
You don't need to like Armchair Violence's style or sense of humor, but namecalling him a 6-year-old is not refuting any of his points (it's actually an ad hominem and therefore officially fallacious). I thought his video was interesting, he brings up good points regarding the rule sets, statistics etc., even though I don't agree with everything he said.
@@gailvalleymartialarts I said you can’t teach architecture to a six year old. He’s not a judoka I’m not gonna waste my time making a video response to satire.
@@Chadi It's not satire, it just contains jokes. And he doesn't have to be a Judoka in order to make valid arguments. And your argument basically is still an ad hominem. It's fine if you don't care to watch a video, but you shouldn't pretend to have refuted if it 1) you didn't watch it, 2) haven't addressed any of the arguments from the video, 3) haven't made any valid arguments yourself.
@@ChadiArmchair violence was his take on judo as it relates to martial arts more broadly. I don't completely agree with his video but he is a martial artist and therefore I think qualified to talk about this topic
Social media clout chasers producing drama out of nowhere and using offensive and misleading aggressive language throwing shade on more popular creators. I'm not terribly surprised. Ideally content creators like that die out from no interaction or attention. You not only choose your battles but you also choose your weapons and targets. Maybe your intention on some level is honest, but if you tarnish it with every other choice you make, it is your own shame. Maybe he has an argument that was worth discussing, but he didn't present anything useful for the viewer when they leave the video, they just criticised everyone and didn't create anything productive and useful. Addressing one thought that stretched over the whole length of that video that bothered me: presumption that static and dynamic are equal. Yet you can immediately see watching any footage that they aren't by default. And frankly learning just getting into necessary positions and feeling strong and balanced is a huge fundamental skill that needs to be developed before dynamical where you let your body compensate maximally. It also causes resiliency towards injury when your body doesn't have to compensate for correct positions. For example I practice in a university student managed club and when you see people between 20-30 years old come to sports or exercise for the first time and watch them and their body struggle, you don't even imagine teaching dynamic action because their body can't do the basics and compensates every opportunity it gets, murdering their technique. Funnily enough I'd want to disagree with the instrument playing analogy, but I get the point so I won't get on a meaningless sidetrack, as a personal character development attempt.
Saying you should only train the exact same movement in the exact same range of motion you would use in a fight is like saying athletes shouldn't do full squat, clean and such, simply because they aren't the exact same as the sport they do(while they're in fact are the same at core). Pretty narrow sighted perception and it showed they don't really understand what they're talking about.
Disregarding if being an olympic judoka qualifies you for being able to talk about judo training 😅just watch any of their instructional videos. Their ippon seoi nage video for example is really helpful and at least for me worked way better in training + randori than the traditional method.
@@l1nthalo196 Not that I disregard their opinion as judo practitioner, nor do I say they're unable to talk about judo, but a shallow opinion is a shallow opinion. I had no doubt they are amazing athletes, just it doesn't mean they're sophisticated people who can understand why a martial art system is designed and work the way it does.
Anyone who has done Judo under a decent coaching staff would never put together a video like that. The mentality is similar to the BJJ indoctrinated jiujitsu player. They never call throws ‘throws’, but rather ‘take-downs’. As if the sole purpose of O-Soto Gari or Ippon Seioi Nage is that of taking uke to the ground for some newaza. Several of the major throws were, in the original Japanese Jiujitsu, that both Judo and later BJJ evolved from, were meant to incapacitate or kill. Have you ever seen a Judoka get thrown onto his head without hikite or proper turning? I have. I have seen men knocked unconscious instantly, and worse things…. Newaza, according to my sensei, is the Foundation of Judo, but training to successfully throw an opponent. It requires the big movements and repetition to gain muscle memory. Judo is dynamic…. OK, Rant over. Sorry Chadi.
No, throwing someone doesn't typically end a fight. Throws are takedowns and generally less important than leg takedowns. Focusing exclusively on low percentage takedowns and zero groundfighting is pretty silly imo.
No. A throw is used to get the opponent on the ground where you could finish them with a bladed weapon or a submission because it would be very difficult for them to get up in heavy armor.
The book “The Origins & History of Judo” is now available on Amazon worldwide in English, French, and Japanese, not just the links below. You can search for it in the Amazon of your own country.
Amazon EU:
amzn.eu/d/bfEkJmQ
Amazon US:
a.co/d/dNyMInt
Amazon Asia:
amzn.asia/d/aRU8ZXn
French version:
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Thank you all.
Chadi, there is a problem at 6:09
no this is wrong - kata tori doesnt do the kusushi. Sport judo is not judo. Choi explains this well. you dont need to fight with the arms etc
i have a useless uki at my club 9fast tracked dan grade), and he wont go near kata - nuff said
Anyone disagreeing with HanpanTV and Harasawa is not only bein contrarian for the sake of it, but they are being both obtuse and trying to claim some kind of moral high ground at the same time.
HanpanTV and Harasawa are advocating for Uchikomi that is biomechanically sound and practical. It goes much beyond just judo.
No, you don't need to pull high for your Uchimata, and you don't need to tuck your elbow under uke's armpit. You cannot reasonably create "kuzushi" in an opponent by trying to lift them with your rear and side delts, which are the main pulling muscles during traditional uchikomi for Uchimata. But that's the thing - to know this you need to actually have an understanding of the human anatomy and biomechanics, which again, is much more fundamental and essential than anything traditional judo can teach. This is ironic, because you claim you "must know the fundamentals" and "you must walk before you run", yet if you claim pulling up on Uchimata is the base, you actually don't fundamentally understand what makes the throw happen in practice.
What's even funnier - there are several comments on HanpanTV videos citing several sources that the way Uchikomi evolved to be done this was is because someone along the way, one of Kano and Mifune's students, simply started doing uchikomi like that as a form of strength and conditioning training, not as an actual way to train the throw. They just didn't know better at the time and the benefits traditional weights training can have for judo. Probably thought it would make you stiff or some bullshit like that.
The saddest things of all is that Chadi should actually watch all of Hanpan's video and try to absorb and apply real, biomechanically sound concepts in his training. Instead, he disregards them and will continue to suck at judo.
I am glad I started Judo in my late 20s and coming from bodybuilding, since I was already a grown up person with critical thinking. In my first few classes, things just didn't seem right - why am I trying to lift a whole person with my rear and side delts? This lead me to doing my own research and finding HanpanTv, for which I'm super thankful.
You have to see the look on national level players when a white belt sends them flying with Uchimata, a throw they thought to be the hardest one in their careers spanning almost 2 decades.
Another comment brought up a very good point. If the "base" for a technique is actually never done in a live, real scenario, is it the actual "base"? Or is the way it is actually done the true, fundamental way?
Again, HanpanTV are advocating for uchikomi that actually helps you perform the throw in randori/shiai. When they were speaking with the girl that is a national player for Korea and asked her what is actually her purpose for doing uchikomi, she said it was to "warm up", and not actually train the throw, which is what many professional judokas do. Then they proceeded to explain that uchikomi should be treated as a tool for improvement, not just a warm up, but for this to happen, uchikomi must be done the way the technique will be performed in practice.
Yup. The amount of denial and copium in the comment sections has me convinced that most modern hobbyist judokas view judo as some mystical jedi art and need it to remain that way bc that’s what they like judo for. In fact, what’s alarming is that Korea responded very favorably to hanpanTV bc to them, judo is just a grappling sport and they just want to get better at it. But ironically it’s the western hemisphere that has more issue with their take. It’s freakin bizarre. Notice how many of these commenters are saying “ohh it’s bc we need to learn KUZUSHI”, like, what the hell do you think grappling is? All grappling IS kuzushi/off balancing. You don’t need uchikomi to learn kuzushi. That’s just something you get a feel for as you get better at grappling. You know who’s had the best kuzushi from everyone I’ve trained with? Wrestlers. And no, they do not do uchikomi. You learn the correct moves that make sense biomechanically and just drill drill drill with resisting partners.
Also, congrats on being steps ahead of these people. Your judo will improve much faster the way you train. One thing that helped my judo skyrocket was ironically joining the wrestling team. Their training method is so efficient and effective. And yup, for uchimata, grab that freakin wrist, yank it down, lock it between your arm and clamp down your elbow and let it rip. Don’t do none of that 1-2-3 step while you’ll pull up the arm by the sleeve and “look at your watch”. Ugh this just irritates me so much lol
@@terrykim2748 You absolutely nailed it. I don't think I've ever seen another martial art where the people practicing it tell you that you basically need to have started when you were 7 years old or something, otherwise you have no chance to be competent and competitive, because the martial art is too "detailed and hard". Indeed they see Judo as some sort of mystical, magical art that the Japanese came up with, and you need to dedicate your whole life to gain enlightenment when you are already too old to actually be competitive.
I am less than 2 years in, never having trained another grappling sport before, but people are stumped by how fast I progress. National competitors consider me advanced enough to often call me to their randori sessions, as they feel they can get a good workout in with me, even though I am a white belt. I've actually been asked by people I meet for the first time if I am taking the piss by putting a white belt on - they think I'm a black belt.
I do not consider myself a prodigy or talented in any way. I am somewhat athletic, though I am quite strong and tall. What I absolutely am though is a grown up person with critical thinking that can tell bullshit when they see it, and will call it out. Just like HanpanTV says, "Question everyone and everything you see, until you verify it to be true for yourself".
I wouldn't have an issue with these people if I didn't see the progress of other beginners being slow because of people like Chadi and other commenters on this video.
People get absolutely disillusioned. You join a dojo, you train techniques for 4 weeks, you don't question it much because, come on, you are paying good money to be taught a skill, so it must be the correct thing, right? You then do your first randori and you cannot hit a single throw you were taught. You are not even close. Not only that, you actually end up with some pains because you are trying to "create kuzushi" by pulling up, so your delts are fucking blasted. You go to your coach or online, you tell about your experience and you are hit with the "You didn't create KUZUSHI bro" or "It will take a lot of time, X throw is very hard!" (you are trying to hit o-goshi lmao). Months go by and you are having ZERO success in randori, which is the only thing you care about (or any reasonable person should care about), because you want to learn applicable skills. Then you just end up dropping judo. The end result from such stories? Judo is successfully gatekept and will continue it's overall downfall, while people like Chadi continue to jerk off online about "muh tradition" and "fundamentals" (they have no knowledge about TRUE fundamentals), while having nearly zero applicable skills.
Honestly, if this is the judo community and the way they want to conduct themselves, they deserve everything they get.
@@Bl2EAKINExactly. Well freakin put. What’s crazy is that the experience you just described is almost universal across the board, myself included. Judo prides itself on this notion that it has a steep learning curve and that only those who have sacrificed years of their time is worthy of learning its most basic skills, as if the students’ failure to learn is somehow hallmark of great teaching. Hell, in any other sport, if half the class/team is struggling to perform after a whole year, that coach would be reevaluated and risk losing his job. Honestly, the popularity of no-gi jiujitsu is the best thing to happen to modern judo bc it’s forcing a lot of advanced judokas to reassess their art and how it should be taught in an effective, practical way.
"Instead, he disregards them and will continue to suck at judo." Sounds like Chadi
If competitors are literally never doing the "basic" form in randori then I'm not sure the basic form is actually the basic form. I think that's the point of their video, whatever is actually happening in randori should be the basic form. When the discrepancy between what's drilled and what's actually mechanically different the correlation won't be as strong as if you drilled what you actually did live. Also, I wonder if the oldest videos we have of Judo kata record this "exaggerated" kuzushi. That wouldn't been an interesting comparison seeing as how in some notable old demos and books they aren't doing or teaching that upward pull.
*what's drilled and what's actually happening live is mechanically
Yup. That’s precisely what they’re saying. So simple, yet so much denial in the comments section. Your “basic” form should always be how you’d actually hit it in randori. You don’t teach some weird version of blast double and tell the kids to hit it properly when they go live. In similar vein, your practice uchimata should resemble your actual uchimata.
I like to teach both. I always show the "classical" way a technique is done and then finish up with several randori-style versions. That way they know where the moves come from. I also emphasize that the big pull you perform on some uchikomis is an over-exaggeration of the technique to force you to power through when sparring with a resisting opponent, similar to swinging a baseball bat with a weight on it. I think I teach the big pull maybe about 10% of the time, if that.
@@terrykim2748When you started judo, you learned to fall - in a rather
unrealistic form - compared to falling in randori.
Uchi Komi is a way to automate 'contact' - the details don't matter.
If you allow individual movements - the result might well be a chain of personal errors baked in from your former body experience.
I respectfully disagree that in seminar you can only teach the basics. If i am a blackbelt attending a siminar,which , in most case i have to pay money to attend. I would like to learn more than just the basic.
or maybe you havent grasped the basics properly, lol
Yeah, to use Chadi's example, if I went to a seminar by a music master class, I wouldn't want to spend hours playing basic chords.
While it's true that you should train all ranges, I think many schools only teach that pulling upward motion and then let you do randori. Then during randori you try it how you learned it and it doesn't work. At least thats how it is in my dojo and it's giving me huge problems as a white belt. You should be doing both not only teach the uchikomi version and expect your students to find out how to do it right during randori... that's just wasted time, especially if your club only has 1-2 sessions per week.
Entendo seu ponto. E acrescento. Se nós observarmos o judô de alto rendimento, notaremos que as técnicas de nage waza com kumi kata tradicional quase não são usadas. Isso porque a forma tradicional se torna muito inviável em randori.
That's why Chadi said communication is important and the reason for doing the big openings should be explained to students
@@nickelmanfulyeah but coaches don't know why they're teaching it.
"Practice a big pull" is about as much as you're liable to get.
6:09 RIP headphone users
scared tf out of me 😮💨
We can break down uchikomi and randorii into a list of pros and cons.
UCHIKOMI:
Pro:
- easier to replicate
- good warm up
- allow focus on certain movements (the squat for seoi nage, head direction for sasae, leg position for ouchi gari etc.)
- good judo specific work out (work out certain muscles, build a sense of balance when working with a person vs drilling on a tree)
- provide a generic shape that you can start with -> ah, this is the difference between an ogoshi and an uki goshi
Cons:
- can't be easily applied to randorii or sparring -> waste time, it's inefficient etc.
- distract you from things that work (kuzushi for this in sparring is different than in uchikomi etc.)
RANDORII
Pros:
- live resistance training -> as close to real life as possible -> things that work here are more likely to work "in the streets"
- good judo specific work out -> stamina, balance training etc
Cons:
- injuries/tiredness might prevent you from randorii but not uchikomi -> you can still do uchikomi
- harder to focus on specific aspects like spamming seoi nage -> would not work on someone after the 2nd or 3rd time.
- harder to drill certain reactions since each person react differently
I'd like to bring up flow judo/scenario sparring as a bridge between the two:
- start with a specific grip
- tell uke to react in a specific way ("when I feint, do this so I can follow up with another technique")
- still move around and provide resistance like randorii but without the full intensity
- drill that for 5 reps then switch
I think practicing these 3 together would be the best. They all have a place in judo 😊
On another note:
- I'd love to hear a response video from Chadi on Armchair Violence. Some, not all, of his points make sense. We can build a more transparent and resilient community when we acknowledge our strengths and weaknesses.
- For people who always say newer is better, know that the original founders don't have uchikomis but later students develop them. By that logic, shouldn't uchikomis be an improvement on the older methods?
I think you have a good perspective. I see Uchikomi as a sliding scale. Properly done, repetition for repetition, with no laziness, uchikomi is effective at helping beginning movement. The more advanced you become, the less effective uchikomi is.
@OldJudoGuy that's a good way of looking at it for sure. Sometimes, the tools that help you early on might work later
I think the issue they are trying to raise is the "traditonal" way of doing uchi komi for uchi mata is doing unrealistic movements. You said it yourself, if you want to improve at playing a guitar, you need to learn the basics. You practice those basics and can actually apply them when playing because when you practice them, they are the SAME way you do it when playing for real.
The issue is when we do uchi komi in the tradional way, what skills are we actually improving? I can apply "kuzushi" by pulling my sleeve hand up, but if I try the same technique in randori, that would never work. These skills we are taught are not applicable in randori. If we really want to improve our techniques, we should be using uchi komi to practice the techniques the same way that we would do it in a real scenario.
You can argue uchi komi still improves your technique but I don't really see the value in practicing something one way but doing it with another way. Every other sport is consistent, we practice and drill the skills the exact same way we would actually do it. If you aren't, then you are only building bad technique. I wouldn't practice a basketball shooting form and then use a different form in a real match.
Well the argument is the movements need to be exaggerated in practice is exactly what karate says
But we can make an apples to apples comparison with them being objectively worse fighters than people who dont train that way
I'm a godan and teach judo in an established jiujitsu school currently. Had a recent discussion with the head jiujitsu blackbelt (who is a great guy who truly wants to train and learn judo). He was confused by the uchikomi drills, particularly for ogoshi, but more generally had questions about why we train the way we do. Your explanation is exactly what i explained to him and something I've been saying for a couple of decades.
Their jiujitsu curriculum has ogoshi as well as other throws, but they train them only situationally (as in, this is what it looks like most of the time in sparing). This leads to a poor understanding of the mechanical fundamentals by students who end up trying to force a situation so they can donthatbthrow they know. By doing the hard work, especially in ogoshi, which feels awkward to most new students, they teach their body how the throw works so they can be reactive to many more opportunities, adapting the throw to the moment because they understand WHY the throw works fundamentally.
As a sensei, i try hard not to simply say, "this is how you do it." I show them the how and try to explain the why. Context allows students, especially adult students, to practice the drill without their mind being engaged in unhelpful questions as they're attempting to learn the technique. What i mean by that is that it removes the natural questions they might have, like:
This is uncomfortable, i can't do this 29 times
Sensei did it so much faster. Why did he tell me to do it slowly?
- this won't work in a fight.... I've never seen someone just stand there and take a throw like this
- that's not how we learned it in jiujitsu last week.
-etc...
By explaining the reasons for the way we train, older or cross-training, students will learn faster and enjoy it more readily
The idea that judoka *aren't* trying to force every throw via the tsurikomi action is funny to me.
It's like your reasoning is correct, but you accidentally put your examples in the wrong order.
An Yngwie Malmsteen reference here? I knew I liked this channel 😁 !!!
🤘🏽
Malmsteen is a legend
facts, I caught that too.
Kyuzo Mifune even when he was doing that 8 directions of kuzushi motion you never see him pulling the hikite upwards, so their point is still valid. Also the fact that you showed a clip from fluid judo Japan also further proves happantv's point in why it is impractical to pull the hikite upward.
I am not against uchikomi in terms of repetition practice. I am mainly against how kuzushi is being applied in uchikomi setting vs randori. I am in favor for modifying uchikomi such that the way we do kuzushi in uchikomi is the same as we do it in randori.
I basically agree with the guys sending you this video.
Techniques are taught to white belts in a certain way; not because that way works, but because it's the way that the instructor learned to teach. He teaches the techniques way he learned to teach them. However, when he has to actually use them, he uses them in the way that he has learned through trial and error will work best against the way uke really respond. White belt techniques fall into 4 categories:
(1) Some of the techniques taught to white belts work perfectly against the way uke responded a hundred years ago (but not against the way anyone fights now).
(2) Some of the techniques taught to white belts work perfectly against uke who are intentionally cooperating (but not against someone committed to fighting back).
(3) Some of the techniques taught to white belts look cool, but don't really do anything useful.
and finally
(4) Some of the techniques taught to white belts are awesome, and are the exact techniques that work best for black belts.
Part of your journey to advanced black belt is learning which techniques fall into which category. Some martial arts throw anything into the trash if it doesn't fall into category 4, and they steal other arts techniques when those techniques fall into category 4. Those are the martial arts that (not surprisingly) work best.
The beauty of the sport also being an art is that people constantly find ways to adjust almost disowned techniques to their own competitive game. Techniques that people said would never work and ways to do them that people said would never work. Personally I view teaching more like any skill practice where you start with the easily understandable basics that teach you fundamental concepts and patterns well, and over time you learn more pieces of the puzzle and towards the end of your journey you've learned to adapt all of it specifically for your own use and applying everything dynamically.
A lot of people don't seem to view things from pedagogical standpoint and confuse teaching fundamentals with teaching highly specialised and adapted ways. You don't start basics by teaching things in a way a specific body and style applied them, you want to give people a general foundation for everyone that they can develop going forward.
And to top it off a lot of people seem to view everything from power and result standpoint, but completely miss the journey and circumstances where they apply.
Kano said "maximum efficiency minimal effort" quite often, so if it's a problem to "view everything from power and result standpoint", perhaps we could fix the problem by avoiding his teachings all together?
Personally, I think students have a much better journey when the moves you teach them actually work. Show new students a move, but don't set them up for failure. Set them up for success by teaching them setups that set the move up to work.
There is a great phrase used in karate "learn the form, break the form". Meaning, first learn the basics and the "formal" basic form, then once you master that, then you break the form, meaning you apply and you optimize for your style and each individual situation
But what are the rules of Uchi-Mata? Do you use it on an upright opponent and struggle to pull them over? No, you use it on a leaning, hunched opponent and aim to snap them into a cart wheel.
Meh, the point remains:
BJJ, all wrestling styles and boxing and various kickboxing styles drill using movement deliberately as close to live work as possible.
Judo and shotokan, among others?, have a tendency to pay homage to the kata gods or arcane movements, and then stuff that’s quite different when going live.
What the hell is a kata god?🤔
That's why most bjj practitioners suck at throws. 😂
You’ve missed the point. Nobody likes practicing scales, but that is what gives you the scaffolding to play more competently. Uchikomi is exaggerated in order to practice kazushi, proper hip placement, and the movement in general. What you are suggesting is that throws should be learned against resistance right off the bat, which is not how you build good habits.
@@chcknpie04actually, new research is suggesting that learning scales isn't the best way to learn music. People learn by getting to play things for themselves, not by statically repeating things for teacher approval. The research showing people don't learn motions by repeating them in the air outside of game conditions isn't new, it's fifty years old and overwhelming by this point
I confirm that. I play piano daily, and I purposely AVOID playing scales because they don't help me to play songs. Chords do help me play songs easier, so I practice chords. In Judo, we need to practice skills which are very close to randori (just like how BJJ and Wrestlers practice!), otherwise, we train ourselves to use incorrect and ineffective techniques. Randori teaches us what is real and effective. Uchikomi is a way of developing what we learn from Randori into a solid feel and pattern without needing to take repeated falls.
I am not against uchikomi in terms of repetition practice. I am mainly against how kuzushi is being applied in uchikomi setting vs randori. I am for modifying uchikomi such that the way we do kuzushi in uchikomi is the same as we do it in randori.
Kuzushi in live fighting is nothing like static uchi-komi. Your opponent is not going to just be there for you to pull, they're going to move around in ways and its that movement that gives you kuzushi.
You will never hit Uchi-Mata on a guy standing tall and statically. You hit it by catching your uke bending and leaning into you. So why pull forwards? Just snap them right down!
I’m probably one of the biggest proponents of doing things with a purpose. I’m still 100% against kata, and for a time I saw no point in uchikomi. But let me tell you, uchikomi is one of the most important things. Everyone I’ve met in Japan has said “when I do a lot of uchikomi I hit more throws”. I definitely feel it myself these days too
@@JudoHighlights2015 same for me.
I think uchikomi is great, provided it uses realistic movement. No need for the “check the watch in the sunset over there” etc.
I am hopelessly addicted to my Uchi-Komi warmups. Gotta do them with the warmup.
But I try to treat the Tsurikomi movement as its own thing, just a way to prime myself for Judo. My actual uchikomi for moves actually replicates how I apply it in randori.
6:05 I think you need to fix the audio there.
I believe the exagerated kuzushi serves an educative purpose for teachers as well. The student can see the teacher apply kuzushi, but I also think it helps the teacher to visually check if the student applied kuzushi. For me though...it really hurts my shoulders to "look at my watch" with my hikite hand. I use my tsurite hand and hips more.
I should ask my teacher why he teaches this way though
Chadi, have you considered that you don't have access to how they really train their throws at professional level? I think partially this is done in closed sessions and partially generic via randori.
Maybe there should be some steps: lets do the uchikomi as in kata, then advanced lets do it/ train it for competition (advanced level)
I find these sorts of takes generally come from people already chest-deep in martial arts and somehow have forgotten they are in a bubble.
What he’s essentially arguing here is similar to if a language teacher told you to “just read books in the target language from the start, that’s how it’s done in real life.” Except that’s an absurd thing to try and promote to a beginner or intermediate learner. While they could theoretically grind through a text, it’s generally just a waste of time.
Yes, there may come a time when a Judoka evolves beyond basic Uchikomi, either developing his own or maybe just pumping out a few reps for warmup. However, it seems to me that HappanTV has forgotten here that the videos he cites are directed at the vast majority of practitioners who are beginners just on pure statistics alone. Even in the dojo, there will always be significantly fewer black belts than beginner to intermediate students.
It’s my opinion that this is sort of riding on the coattails of a trend that is a massive disease in the martial arts space in which everyone wants to skip basics, “just roll,” and feel like they are reversing “stagnant” traditions… usually without ever considering if those traditions have utility or not. Innovation is great, but trying shift a paradigm “just because” is self-defeating. People just don’t want to swallow the bitter pill that is the fact that there are no shortcuts or hacks to any of this stuff. If you’re advanced enough to not adhere to basic Uchikomi, go for it, but these videos likely aren’t aimed at you. Similarly, a seminar led by Maruyama is OF COURSE going to show his particular stuff because it’s HIS seminar… it’s not the “Maruyama teaches the basics of Judo you can get anywhere” meetup.
Uchikomi and a Judoka’s relationship to it is a progression. And a personal one at that. Judging the alphabet for not being Shakespeare is nonsensical.
(Came out of vacation to write this comment, ccI’m going back now lol)
didnt your video on sumi otoshi praise mifune for "cutting out the fat"? like that was the whole premise (or at least catalyst) of that video wasnt it? you mention learning language, and although reading a book is a bit extreme, a lot of language is learned conversationally and through context (ie ecologically) now a days. I would say this approach of learning the basics is closer to "just read the books..."
@@Adam-bu3lm his argument stands. if you try to only learn a language by conversation, you won't know how to read or write it, you won't have fully learned it.
@@joatanpereira4272 lets not get crazy with the analogy. learning how to read menus and fill forms is encompassed in contextual language learning.
*principles* > *basics*
its more important to learn the principles of fighting over the basics of a throw. if kuzushi, being a principle, is understood the throws will flow no matter the range or circumstances. basics don't cover every circumstance - principles do.
@@Adam-bu3lmThe issue is that you cannot cut out the fat if you don’t know where it is. Yes, I find Mifune’s Sumi, as an example, to be a sleeker approach, but he only got there by studying everything that came before it. My video, as most of my stuff, is much more directed at people who have been doing martial arts for a while.
Maybe as a different example here: historians, when writing scholarly work, have to do a historiography. They need to be acquainted with (at least) the broad strokes of the field and topic since it began. Throughout that section, they express how the field has shifted through each subsequent researcher and, finally, how their own work will contribute to that lineage of scholarship.
While I’m not suggesting with this that the Judoka needs to go out and learn every single variation of Uchi Mata… would he not be a better Uchi Mata specialist for doing so? He will learn the idiosyncrasies of the technique, it’s technicians, and what each type can offer his own style and body type.
The issue here is that everyone seems to want a straight line to getting a technique to “work,” but that’s not really how growth in any field actually functions. Beyond that, there are some individuals like Ono Shohei, for example, who should be studied, but whose Uchi Mata is likely beyond replication for most mere mortals.
The point here is that, yes, we should cut the fat out of techniques and personalize them, but that takes study. You need to do a survey of the field and that starts with the building blocks of said field. For Judo, that’s Uchi Komi.
@@joatanpereira4272This is 100% correct. The whole “ecological learning” concept really only kicks in when you have enough grammar, vocabulary, syntax, etc. to engage with a language.
Toss a beginner into a boxing ring with a pro and ask him to “ecologically learn” and he’ll quit awfully quick.
I’m all for the ecological learning approach, the issue is that many of its strongest advocates suggest it’s a REPLACEMENT for basic, deliberate instruction when it is, in fact, and intermediate stage supplement to learning.
I’m pretty comfortable standing by that assertion, too, teaching language is my actual day job. We have this whole notion of “comprehensible inputs” in language, basically meaning that you need to understand about 85 to 90% of material for ecological learning to be effective on that remaining 10%. Understanding context is what allows ecological learning to be effective. But you have to be educated in that context first, hence the basics, as you point out.
It's not just 'uchikomi vs. randori'. It really is uchikomi vs. how they actually do it, even in presentation. Unnecessarily confusing is what it is.
They put emphasis on such details as 'looking at your watch' during practice, when it actually never is done. That critique is absolutely justified.
i do "look at my watch" during randori and shiai. So what?
Agreed, this is a miss from Chadi
Na minha visão falta um pouco de transição ao falar sobre uchi komi e randori. É normalmente trabalhado de forma muito isolada. Ao invés de pensarmos no uchi komi como a teoria e no randori como a prática.
@atreyadey650 the critique was lacking knowledge and Chadi explained why it was in the video
@@atreyadey650Every take by Chadi is a miss lmao
6:11 whoops! nice music though😂
@@jacobflores78 🪄
@@Chadi🎩🪄🐇
Pleased to see Fluid Judo uchimata dissection here. I love uchimata and while training at a new Dojo Sensei insisted on traditional kuzushi and I was thinking 'Yeah, for practice but in randori you just cant lift and pull your opponent in that manner'. That's a thing with Judo, sometimes it entangles way to much on tradition instead of what it works in a fight. I love kata, tradition, phylosophy and all, but at the end of the day you must learn how to fight and defend properly... If someone attacks me on the streets I'll 100% go for Fluid Judo uchimata instead of Kodokan version haha.
Its wild that Chadi talks about the value of the 'trad' way when there's whole ass footage of him getting nuked by 'real' Uchi-Mata.
Also of note is that in uchikomi, uke is upright and has their sleeve arm pulled up to unbalance them and consequently pull them down and flip them over for the uchi mata. In competetion, that's unnecessary since in these examples, uke is already bent over, so half the battle is done for tori anyway so they can just pull the sleeve arm downward; pulling them up just to be pulled down again would be dumb and a waste of effort.
As they say in the video, you should never attempt uchi mata if uke is not bent over. That's the mechanic of the throw. So the point is moot.
Its worse than dumb, you just killed your Uchi-Mata. Trying to pull one out of an upright opponent is asking to get gaeshi'd lol.
Totally forgot about that Armchair Violence video, I remember being surprised and annoyed by it 🤷♂️
He doesn't even train
If you ask him what his belt is he says "unranked"
Oh, so a white belt
@@sirpibblewell technically if he doesn’t train he has no belt yet!
JKD folks do not have rank in their approach.
@@tristanjones7682 white belt is level 0, everyone is a white belt until otherwise
Saying "unranked" is the language grifters use. Same energy as "Im good enough to be a pro if I wanted to, I just don't want to"
"I'm unranked but I'd be at least a purple belt if I wanted to get ranked"
*proceeds to get his clock cleaned by a 1 stripe blue belt*
Judo is a martial art, the aesthetic beauty of Kata serves the martial artist who seeks perfection of movements, martial artist can't escape of seeking perfection of movements.
Some people are looking at this the wrong way.In my opinion, We learn the waza the way that we do as beginners to know what to aim for in randori. Of course, additions or minimalisations will be created to make the move easier or more pracitcal for you,(based on your body type), But you walk away from first learning the move having seen and understood the standard that it CAN be executed at, the best case scenario,and you train your body and your mind for that. and from then on you have something to work towards- perfecting your technique in your journey. It's the same with a closed guard armbar in bjj. You never face the resistance when first learning. But thats not to say you cant pull it off when the opponent adds alot of pressure. You are just adapting to that pressure, which is part of the essence of these respective Martial arts.
hI NergCatalyst61. I'm Karate. Correct. 😁😁 CHEERS.
The debate is whether or not if certain techniques are being shown in a competitive essence or a performative essence.
Chadi I think what you and a lot of people are not taking into account is the performative nature of east Asian and specifically Japanese culture. After all there is ART in martial arts.
Look at Japanese tea pouring rituals. You can't tell me having to pull up your sleeve and holding the teapot at a certain angle while having your body be very rigged is the most effective way of getting tea in a cup. Competitors want to know the best way to get the tea in the cup, not necessarily what's the most aesthetic.
Armchair Violence and some comments here claim Judo is not as important as BJJ and wrestling when it comes to real fighting. Yet the views on my 'Real of Footages of Effective Judo in Street Fights' video skyrocketed to about 900 in 4 weeks. It feels like the internet tends to gaslight Judo people for some reason.
I did exaggerate my movements for Uchi-Mata... but I did with live randori form. And you know what? I was able to ippon two guys in comp because I didn't waste time with the tsurikomi motion. I simply felt them going down and pushed them down in the most natural way possible.
Maybe the traditional style works for Judoka who train since childhood and could layer on hours of training... and even more randori where they do it using real form. But for late comers, I think its a waste of time to teach this way. I keep my Tsurikomi Uchikomi as just a warmup, and train my throws like I use them live.
I did enjoy the presentation! I apologize for sending you the video. :( I do think that when you are training the average recreational judoka, which is 95% of judokas, who only train 2 to 3 times a week, you should be more direct with instruction of technique, They don't have the same time of self-discovery as someone who starts at 5 years old training most of the days a week. Also, why is Judo so unique in teaching this way? Boxing, kickboxing, every form wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, Bokh or any art/sport that spars? I did not like the title either, for I have a deep belief in the "basics" when it comes to techniques. Training methods are another thing entirely. We should always be striving for a "better way", avoiding the disease of "because it's always been done that way". (I'm glad Kano never suffered from that) Again, wonderful presentation as usual. We should not always have to agree. But we should always listen. Growth.
similar problem has been brought up for kendo years ago, ie why do the wide long swing when the short narrow one is what is used in shiai, whether training or competition. and yes many people defended the wide one with similar reason as stated in this video. but a lot also rebuked them saying the mechanisms of the wide and narrow are different, including the body parts and muscles used, the strategy, the timing etc. think of boxing cross punch vs jkd 1-inch punch, that's how different they are. meaning both swings should also be taught as basic practice instead of focusing on one only and expecting the students to "realize" how to do the other. nowadays, we can even see schools that teach wide swing only for warm up and kata, and focusing on narrow swing for drills etc.
If I go to a seminar from a world class musician and they have everyone do the same scales and arpeggios that everyone has already done a million times, I would ask for my money back. I'm not going to a Judo seminar to learn fundamentals that I can learn anywhere.
Uchi komi also helps your defense being Uki is very beneficial to timing defense and counter throws.
What surprised me more about the armchair violence video were the judokas in the comments that practically agreed with him. Essentially saying “you’re right our martial art does suck” and taking it.
It's not surprising tons of people don't think for themselves.
Armchair Violence has been right about several topics, I think, but he doesn’t produce the best content when he’s clearly talking about something he doesn’t actually practice. I suspect a lot of the people nodding along with him in the comments probably were already fans and didn’t really think much more deeply than that.
It doesn't suck, but it's overrated compared to other combat sports.
I get the feeling most of those guys are just not good at Judo or don't even do it. Or are just BJJers.
In The Art of Learning, by Josh Waitzkin (incidentally also a black belt in bjj under Marcelo Garcia) he talks about the principle of "making smaller circles". I think what you are showing here is exactly that. Getting to distill the movement is an end-point, not the starting point
Imagine you're training for the 200m and someone only teaches you to run the 400m. Will you be good at the 200m? Sure, but you need to do both.
I remember my teacher back in Hong Kong, I asked him why we need to practice big movement while it is impossible to do in randori.
He said when you practice you do 110% and so when you do it in randori it will get discounted into 60%. If you practice it at 60% or even 50%, when you fight then you can't do shit. That's why when we practice we always "over do" the big movements.
This has nothing to do with in practice you do 110% and in randori you do it at 60%. Why not just practise like how you would do it in randori with exact movements?
Again, this isn't the point.
It's not exaggerated, it's moving in the wrong direction.
Practicing at negative %110 can't be anything but developing bad habits.
Bonjour Chadi
Comment je peux me mettre en contact avec vous?
@@ahfmobile IG Chadi.fi
Merci, je n'arrive pas avec chadi.fi.
Well in training you may need to go big or exaggerate to show the mechanics.
The problem presented by the other video is understandable, and the response perhaps a little hasty. As to whether an experienced judoka ever needs to continue to do uchikomi once proficiency is acquired, is probably more philosophical. I don’t think that advanced athletes NEED to continue doing basics, but I think they often chose to. If you’re going to teach it’s good to maintain an understanding of fundamental process to pass it down to new athletes, but is it necessary to maintain high level proficiency? Not in my opinion.
The same is true with any other sport. I think there are perhaps more advanced methods of training that enter in which better serve the advanced athlete (judoka in this case).
This video brought up some key points that made me consider / reconsider training methodology and concepts. Namely, the exaggeration of movement in fundamentals. With basic uchikomi, for example, there is no struggle. The Nage is cooperative, with some aliveness, but also the throw is not being completed. Randori isn’t that, but the process of getting to position is important, and the best way to get in the repetitions to build a neurological map of that technique (movement pattern) is the cooperative movement of uchikomi.
Advanced skill requires a resisting opponent to build the strength, speed, response, timing, etc., that you will encounter in a fight.
The way you train is the way you perform. Performing uchikomi as a calorie burning exercise and not as a fundamental mental mapping process for movement is what really trains people to be bad at movement.
Just my two cents. Thanks for the video!!
6:10 i’m dead lololol
Jigoro Kano himself explained that koshi techniques are tsurikomi-based but one guy makes a video that just makes a lot of noise based on a poor movement analysis
This reminds me of the judoka I see so often saying that kata is useless. I even heard people who sort of practice Judo say, "Oh, that is not "real" Judo, "real" Judo is fighting." Listen to modern US judoka talk when either Ju no kata or Koshiki no kata are being performed. There are always some who claim that it is not "real" Judo. I no longer even discuss it with them. I just pity them.
bet they cant do juno for toffee
Uchikomi and Kata are the two most misunderstood things in Martial Arts. The reason you do both of them the way you do is simple: You need to learn how to walk before you can run. When doing either you are working on your basic form. You are seeking to do the move as close to perfection as possible without resistance. If you can't do it without resistance, you won't be able to do it with resistance.
Learning the rules before you go breaking them
but why don't we train both the same way? why do we train with optimal kuzushi during drills when we use throw using suboptimal kuzushi most of the time? maybe at first when just learning the throw makes sense, but training the same way after getting the throw?
@@pablogonzalez2009 I hear what you're saying. After watching the entire video on Hanpan's page, I think that was their point.
If you're mindlessly doing Uchikomi as part of your warm up, they won't really give you much. There is a point which you have to add some movement to your training. However, if you are using Uchikomi to refine your form, they can be useful throughout your practice.
All of that is ignoring the problem.
The way we make people do uchikomi is wrong, so they are striving to perfect a movement pattern that is useless.
You know the saying, practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.
@@sevasentinel4146 That makes no sense to me here. Uchi-Mata's rule is not to belt it out on an upright opponent- in fact doing so is a terrible idea.
The way I was taught it actually made more sense and gave me a working Uchi-Mata.
Modern uchikomi is a problem. The exaggerated pull is completely worthless in practice and to my mind never existed in the original techniques. If you read Dr. Jigoro Kano's own textbook "Kodokan Judo", which for some reason everyone forgets exists, there is no mention of these large movements in the description of the techniques and their is nothing that looks like them in the images of the techniques. What is pictorially shown in every technique and what is discussed in every technique is movement! Uke is never just standing in one place and getting thrown. Uke is always being lead into a throw, even if it's Tori making Uke step from a right natural posture into a normal (feet parallel) natural posture before executing a koshi waza.
Modern uchikomi is additionally debilitating because it doesn't train Kuzushi at all. It only trains Tsukuri and Kake , and does a poor job of training Tsukuri as well. Here's a concrete example. Take Uchi Mata. In the book Kodokan Judo, a right sided Uchi Mata is described as a technique that is applied as Uke is shifting their weight to the leg that is being attacked; Uke's left leg. This is called out explicitly. If you are trying to practice such a throw to a static partner it will always fail unless it's changed to a different throw. Why is this? If you grab the collar sleeve grip and turn to your left to enter for the throw, this movement alone forces Uke's weight to shift from both feet to the leg that is NOT going to be attacked by Tori. Tori then tries to reap an unweighted leg. Exactly the wrong thing is being practiced. Now add to this the "modern" update of an elbow in the armpit and a large upward pull being applied to Uke and you are 100% guaranteed to unweight the leg you want to reap. So, modern players then change to a ken-ken style or switch to attacking the leg they just weighted with the modern "hane-uchi mata hybrid". The off-balancing that is occurring is incorrect in that it forces Uke to shift their weight to recover their balance to the wrong leg. The Tsukuri is incorrect in that it forces Tori to change his attack to something that is no longer correctly classified as Uchi mata. Quite the improvement over movement based practice!
Bonjour Chadi. Je vous écris en français parce que je crois comprendre que vous êtes francophone. Merci pour la qualité de vos vidéos, votre érudition et votre pédagogie.
Je cherche en France des entraînements en judo No Gi, en vain. J'ai compris que le problème repose notamment sur une question d'affiliation à telle (judo) ou telle (lutte) fédération. J'ai donc cherché des clubs de lutte alentours qui utilisent des projections de judo. J'ai aussi contacté les différentes fédérations : question restée sans réponse. Même pas une piste.
Je crois que je vais passer une petite annonce pour des cours particuliers.
Avez-vous une idée ?
Same goes with JoshBeamBJJ, He thinks that sparring can increase the knowledge but not uchikomi. The main purpose of uchikomi is repetitions, to make it better and make muscles memories. Someone that good at uchikomi, can do throws far better than someone who dont.
Japanese players do not do much Uchikomi. For them its basically warmup before randori where they learn to really do Judo.
@@MatthewNguyen-zx3de Uchikomi is a drill for muscle memory. It is okay, if you dont want to do that in your training.
@@anton8267 The high level Japanese don't do much Uchi-Komi, you can see it for yourself. They will do it traditionally for like ten minutes, and then they will just spar A LOT.
@@MatthewNguyen-zx3de Korean and Japanese did Uchikomi for 30 minutes straight and with 1.5 hours of Randori. So yeah, 25% of their training is Uchikomi.
チャディさん、最高の柔道の知識です。素晴らしいです。嘉納治五郎の知識と日本柔道の技術Videoとチャディさんの実戦経験から柔道の合理的な正しい戦術の説明と歴史の素晴らしさを世界に広めてくれます。やはり柔道はスポーツ競技であると共に護身術としての信頼性が世界の人々に認められ広まったのですね。レスリング流の脚へのタックルの動きも木村政彦はレスリング選手以上に綺麗に美しく入ってます。相手はあの力道山ですけど😅本当の打撃をかいくぐって入ってるので、今のMMAでもチャンピオンになれたはずです。
優しいコメント有難う御座います🙇🏻♂️
I generally like your videos, but this one is a miss. I can't bring myself to like it, so here's a comment for the algorithm.
I've been seeing a lot of similar videos about how people teach sidekicks wrong supposedly ( I have no opinion about it)
My bad bro 🤣
Great video. You nailed it on the head when you said FRAMEWORK. Kuzushi and Tsukuri for a compliant Uke are different for one who is sparring/competing. But the throw is the throw.
Armchair is the lowest-quality fighttuber there is. His channel is a long streak of L's. Name a bad take, and he has made a video on it. I don't know how anyone watches him.
Never…
Very disappointed in you Chadi.
People do not know the idea behind uchi-komi. Some think it is a kind of weight lifting exercise, but it is not. It is about honing your skills, about how to coordinate your whole body in a fluid way. For this you neeed an Uke who does not resist. In Randori your opponent is not cooperative and does not want to be thrown. So, Randori is all about creating chances, where in a split second you can make an attack. For Uchi-mata you need to create a situation where Uke leans slightly forward. Hence the hikite does not have to go upwards. It is also not possible to get the pull upwards because Uke resists. You create the situation by feinting an other attack or wait for a stupid move of uke. Once you can enter it is important that you get the rotation by keeping the hikite close to your close. You cannot do fast repetitions of tenri style uchimata (as shown by fluid judo). This is another way to create an chance to enter, when you are bigger than your opponent. To hone your movement you need the classic form.
This anti uchi komi video is a poor mechanical and teaching analysis anyway
I would make a comment about the big movements. The movements look smaller in sparring vs uchikomi because your opponent is resisting. The effort to make the big movements is still the same
It's not the same movement.
How do you ignore the point so flagrantly?
@ have you ever done randori before?
@@biggrrrlbjj5833 I have. If I tried to use the forward pulling Tsurikomi motion my technique fails because I'm trying to rip it from them rather than directly pulling them towards the direction they're already going.
Uchi-Mata is best done on hunched opponents. Its not worth yanking them back up just to get your elbow down- just push them right over and pull them down!
we make the technique look beautiful on purpose in Kata, An experienced fighter knows that in reality it is different but not everything about martial arts is about fighting.
Regrettably watched the 'arm share violence judo' video and want that time of my life back.
Sadly, he has some points about Olympic Judo and where it is now... But then again, I learned Judo mainly as a beginner in the 1980/90ies, so proper Judo with leg grabs. I also always looked up to the Judo of the 1930ies, which is to me, the zenith of our martial arts power. As it was intended by Jigoro Kano. It also works great in tandem with full contact karate.
This guy 'arm share person' knows less about martial arts in general and grappling in particular than a weeb doing Tekken, Mortal Combat and Double Dragon on the PlayStation. He is the prime example on why there should be a restriction of kinds on freedom of speech, especially when he is broadcasting lies and defamation.
He's completely right. Judo isn't anywhere as important as wrestling or bjj when it comes to fighting.
I watched a Mark Huizinga (olympic gold medal Sydney 2000 in -90 kg) documentary where he says he would often do 1000x uchi komi in one session. He also won the national IQ test live on TV in the Netherlands so he is very intelligent (IQ>130 I believe). If a highly intelligent olympic champion recommends it, I would say there is something to it.
Lol a textbook fallacious argument.
You don't need to like Armchair Violence's style or sense of humor, but namecalling him a 6-year-old is not refuting any of his points (it's actually an ad hominem and therefore officially fallacious). I thought his video was interesting, he brings up good points regarding the rule sets, statistics etc., even though I don't agree with everything he said.
@@gailvalleymartialarts I said you can’t teach architecture to a six year old. He’s not a judoka I’m not gonna waste my time making a video response to satire.
@@Chadi It's not satire, it just contains jokes. And he doesn't have to be a Judoka in order to make valid arguments. And your argument basically is still an ad hominem.
It's fine if you don't care to watch a video, but you shouldn't pretend to have refuted if it 1) you didn't watch it, 2) haven't addressed any of the arguments from the video, 3) haven't made any valid arguments yourself.
@@ChadiArmchair violence was his take on judo as it relates to martial arts more broadly. I don't completely agree with his video but he is a martial artist and therefore I think qualified to talk about this topic
@@ChadiIt's not satire, he makes a compelling argument that judo is overrated compared to bjj, boxing and other combat sports in online discussions.
@@ChadiI agree with chadi if you don’t like its then its your opinion
Social media clout chasers producing drama out of nowhere and using offensive and misleading aggressive language throwing shade on more popular creators. I'm not terribly surprised. Ideally content creators like that die out from no interaction or attention. You not only choose your battles but you also choose your weapons and targets. Maybe your intention on some level is honest, but if you tarnish it with every other choice you make, it is your own shame. Maybe he has an argument that was worth discussing, but he didn't present anything useful for the viewer when they leave the video, they just criticised everyone and didn't create anything productive and useful.
Addressing one thought that stretched over the whole length of that video that bothered me: presumption that static and dynamic are equal. Yet you can immediately see watching any footage that they aren't by default. And frankly learning just getting into necessary positions and feeling strong and balanced is a huge fundamental skill that needs to be developed before dynamical where you let your body compensate maximally. It also causes resiliency towards injury when your body doesn't have to compensate for correct positions. For example I practice in a university student managed club and when you see people between 20-30 years old come to sports or exercise for the first time and watch them and their body struggle, you don't even imagine teaching dynamic action because their body can't do the basics and compensates every opportunity it gets, murdering their technique.
Funnily enough I'd want to disagree with the instrument playing analogy, but I get the point so I won't get on a meaningless sidetrack, as a personal character development attempt.
Saying you should only train the exact same movement in the exact same range of motion you would use in a fight is like saying athletes shouldn't do full squat, clean and such, simply because they aren't the exact same as the sport they do(while they're in fact are the same at core). Pretty narrow sighted perception and it showed they don't really understand what they're talking about.
They are olympic judo players. I think they know what they're talking about
@l1nthalo196 That only confirmed they had good coach or teacher, nothing more
@@l1nthalo196 About Olympic judo, Olympic judo is kinda only a small portion of Kodokan.
Disregarding if being an olympic judoka qualifies you for being able to talk about judo training 😅just watch any of their instructional videos. Their ippon seoi nage video for example is really helpful and at least for me worked way better in training + randori than the traditional method.
@@l1nthalo196 Not that I disregard their opinion as judo practitioner, nor do I say they're unable to talk about judo, but a shallow opinion is a shallow opinion. I had no doubt they are amazing athletes, just it doesn't mean they're sophisticated people who can understand why a martial art system is designed and work the way it does.
Anyone who has done Judo under a decent coaching staff would never put together a video like that. The mentality is similar to the BJJ indoctrinated jiujitsu player. They never call throws ‘throws’, but rather ‘take-downs’. As if the sole purpose of O-Soto Gari or Ippon Seioi Nage is that of taking uke to the ground for some newaza. Several of the major throws were, in the original Japanese Jiujitsu, that both Judo and later BJJ evolved from, were meant to incapacitate or kill. Have you ever seen a Judoka get thrown onto his head without hikite or proper turning? I have. I have seen men knocked unconscious instantly, and worse things…. Newaza, according to my sensei, is the Foundation of Judo, but training to successfully throw an opponent. It requires the big movements and repetition to gain muscle memory. Judo is dynamic…. OK, Rant over. Sorry Chadi.
No, throwing someone doesn't typically end a fight. Throws are takedowns and generally less important than leg takedowns. Focusing exclusively on low percentage takedowns and zero groundfighting is pretty silly imo.
No. A throw is used to get the opponent on the ground where you could finish them with a bladed weapon or a submission because it would be very difficult for them to get up in heavy armor.