Funny thing is, im a driver for a 50 cal humvee, which would basically be a “recon” in AW and i was on a training cycle a little while ago and we learned that enemy tanks were inbound on one of the roads, .50 cal humvees cant take tanks just like recons cant so we pulled back some in time for friendly Apaches (b copters) to fly by and destroy the tanks….. after that whole situation i thought. “ man i wanna play some advance wars when i get back”
There was a slight change to battle copters in Days of Ruin. Their firepower against most ground vehicles was increased (save for AAA, where their firepower was debuffed), making them harder counters to tanks, medium tanks, recons, and so on. Their firepower received a massive nerf against cruisers and a slight nerf against most naval units. More crucially, firepower of virtually all units when firing on battle copters was buffed (more base damage, less luck damage), which means your copters will be more quickly chipped away at and suffer death by a million paper cuts. These slight tweaks turns them from a primary versatile all-around brawler into a more specialized tank killer.
While were at it i could also mention the missiles having +1 range and most importantly the duster which is a 13k plane copter hunter and a lesser fighter
I really wish for another new advance wars to builds on DoR. Maybe make the carrier easier to use, increase the price of the bike and AT, maybe make a new naval unit that can do most of the things the missle boat does but isn't as obnoxious. I actually rather they do that then the reboot which really is just a remaster. DoR has it's balance issues but it was a step forward for the franchise and the new game should build on it and improve it further. Reboot is kind of a regression.
Battlecopters, the pegasus knights of fire emblem, the diference is that battlecopters can't rescue infantry so their counsin transport copter has to do the job
One thing I think is worth pointing out on the Fighter vs. Battle copter is that fighters may cost so much more, but they also tend to help control and pressure your opponents in relation to their battle copters. Thanks to the fighter's larger movement they can put a lot of pressure on enemy copters even if they aren't direclty fighting them, which can help you control the flow of the match and what your opponents are likely to look into building or where they move their battle copters. Obviously that's hard to quantify and comes down heavily down to player skill as well, but I do think it's an important thing to consider in the fighter vs Bcopter matchup specifically.
I love the fact that you create custom maps specially for demonstrating the unit you are covering. It actually really helps gets what you're talking about across, as someone who is a very visual learner.
I feel like all ships need to be 2 to 3 times tougher against everything that isn't a ship. its absurd how expensive they are for units that perform about as well or worse than ground or air equivalents. Edit: isn't a ship or a bomber, bombers should still wreck ships.
No I think bombers should not wreck ships even if it's realistic. I think bobmers should do marginally better than battlecoptors, but not be able to wreck them since bombers are not restricted to sea tiles so for balence purposes the ships should be durable so that sea matches make people consider landers and ships over transport coptors and bombers (said bombers and transprot coptors wouldn't be obsolete since people still build them in land matches). I think the only non ship thing that should do significant damage to ships is Neotanks.
They are quite good, they die in one hit against anti air but they don't have many counter, anti air, missile, B-copters and fighter (and some naval units but you rarely see those in comptetive plays), meanwhile tanks have many counters with some being pretty cheap (AKA mechs) so yeah Air units are pretty OP, a shame that sea units doesn't cost 70% less because they would be more used and remember that sea units are restricted while air units have no movement cost.
Greyfield in a B.Copter, oh boy... you could usually get away with shooting them with Mechs in the mountains, but his zoned B.Copters have more defense than Waylon's and Tasha's (+40 compared to +30 and +20, respectively,) assuming you're in a pre-deploy map with no Airports or Fighters.
I think it's not so much that b copters are op, it's just that units that are meant to have interesting interactions with them like missiles, fighters and cruisers are overpriced
One thing that isn't mentioned here is that the B-copter might be the most flexible unit in AW and AW2; the only units it can't attack are the fighter and bomber. In AWDS the stealth fighter can attack everything, but is practically difficult to deploy due to it's cost and extreme fuel usage.
In days of ruin they removed the coin flip situation with t copters by reducing the damage dealt to 85% Also sensei's b copter can out damage his bombers against certain units when he uses his his co power. This is because unit defense is weird
unit defense is not that weird. Even tho sensei's bombers don't suffer damage penalty, the firepower boost he receives on his copters is so ridiculously high that it becomes better when attacking units it's deployed to. Their missles are not meant to fire navy units for example... this is why even with COP, a bcopter isn't any better than a bomber. This does not apply against ground units tho.
Watch out for Anti-Air and Cruisers with movement increases though. Battle Copters won’t be able to outrun them anymore. Lash’s Anti-Air can also be very scary.
"I spam B-chopters and my tanks focus the ennemy anti air then the ennemy panic and spam anti air", meanwhile a chad CO will build a fighter so now you'll be building anti air.
in a mid range funds 16k-22k match, usually the player that dumps funds to build a fighter just loses. A fighter needs to score multiple kills to equate to its own value so it's rare to see them built.
@@badassoverlordzetta I play standard income FOW ranked match and I often see and use fighters, because what counter a fighter ? Another fighter, AA and missile, but the fighter is pretty fast and usualy such unit is well covered. Some official maps can go with +20 000 daily income and against certain CO you'll have to bank. So you are wrong. I wanted to throw in some matches to prove my point but I forgot to upload them (and discovered that one got a bad quality) but I'm working on publishing it, having your opponent use a fighter means that he got the air superiority especialy since he will cover that unit and you won't deploy a missile just to counter a fighter, but you need air units, and you can't gather a death ball if your opponent air units destroy your ground units......
@@badassoverlordzetta I also have to disagree. I was losing pretty badly to my opponent in one of my games but decided to fight on for the fun and to see if i can force hold out long enough my opponent decides to accept a draw. (this is during a practice battle, not a league match.) He had an income of 20k funds to my 16k funds, but by saving for a fighter and also a bomber later, I was able to surprise my opponent with units he had no response for several turns. They were also fast enough to pull back at the first sign of an anti-air or opposing fighter. Looking at the replay, my total unit value was actually higher than my opponent for several turns after this despite the income difference until eventually I was forced to sacrifice both my fighter and bomber to defend a base he was close to capturing. At that point, I lost my value lead. I resigned when I saw a NeoTank, something I knew I could not fight with my remaining 14k income left to his 22k. The fighter and bomber was totally a right call and my opponent messaged me afterwards that for a long time, he was seriously considering accepting the draw offer. Note: I was playing as Sonja against Lash so it's not like my CO was the reason the fighter and bomber were so good.
@@fluhfie4602 There are certainly times when you can turn crisis into opportunity with an unusual build choice, I'm just saying from my experience in Fog 1100-1300 matches that in those income ranges most opponents will flat out obliterate you for dumping a whole turn of funds into a Fighter. Out of about 160 ranked matches I've only had three games I can remember where a Fighter was worthwhile. One was as a soft counter to a Stealth so my opponent was even further behind on unit count due to that investment. The other two times I was playing Eagle was able to score multiple battle copter kills in one lightning strike. And I also never discussed Bombers which are an entirely different topic. Bombers are a counter to Neotanks which means they can earn their entire investment in a single kill, a far cry from what a Fighter needs to accomplish to justify its cost. Because ground combat in mid funds matches can easily still go to Neotanks (sometimes even more frequently than Md Tanks due to their superior mobility) which makes bombers a much more reasonable unit to see in league matches.
I also play Age of Empires 2 and the general role of battle copters seem to mirror knight line in AoE2. Both are very mobile units that compete with a cheaper unit for scouting, (recons and the scout line) and having decent to very good match ups with most other units. The thing that ties it all together is a unit that is specifically designed to demolish that unit (anti-air in AW and the spearman line in AoE2).
Think I'd like a big copter unit. Such a price gap in the air units between the B Copter's 9000 and the Fighter's 20000, and Dual Strike only added more expensive air units. Wait what? The Days of Ruin Duster is plane with a propeller that costs 13000? Huh.
Just had an idea watching this video. Airports could have their own air defence system. That way, when enemy air units attack your air units on the airport, the attacker will take some damage even if they destroy their target. An alternative option would be to give air units some defence stars on airports, but only against enemy air units. This would simulate the reduced accuracy caused by trying to avoid the air defences while attacking. Not sure how fun it would be, but it would be more realistic.
I don't think it would end up being fun, first thing is that it's on you if thr ennemy reaches your airport, second is that it just kinda prevents you from attacking the unit, making a weird stalemate where both opponent have to stay far from airports unless its a really good engagement
Hooray, my avatar's in this one ;) One thing that might be worth adding: battle copters can't heal on cities like ground units can, which maybe balances out how little counterattack damage they tend to take. Or maybe that low counterattack damage balances the fact that it's harder to heal them? I guess it's a glass half empty/full situation. Certainly it puts that low ammo count into even more perspective: as you say, a battle copter that has run out of ammo has done *insanely* well.
I'd introduce a unit that would technically nerf the Battlecopter on top of the Duster (the Duster would likely be buffed so that it has a coin-flip in it's ability to one-shot B-Copters). The Stinger unit, it would basically be a Mech, but instead of it's launcher targeting ground units it would target air units with the exception of the Fighter (mostly for the Fighter's sake) and Cloaked air units. Outside of it's main weapon targeting air units it would be statically identical to the Mech, so it would have trouble getting to them, but at the same time they'd be pretty good at capturing because they can retaliate against Battlecopters and Dusters, making them not a sure bet. They'd look distinctly different from Mechs however (with VERY different launchers) so you'd be able to tell if said unit is a Mech or a Stinger. This is to give Infantry specialists a means of anti-aircraft defense on-foot, part of the massive revitalization that I'd give to Infantry combat, one of the 5 new foot units that I'd introduce, the two notable ones would be the Marksman and Mortar Team which would be indirect combat units. Admittedly the unit name is a bit of a placeholder as I really can't think of a better name for it.
One issue is the current infantry specialists (Sami and Sensei) still have good anti-airs vs. copters. Base damage for AAs vs. copters is 120, so even with Sami and Sensei's 10% reduced firepower on their vehicles, their Anti-airs will still one-shot copters of most COs. Which begs the questions of why deploy an anti-air infantry over a Mech or regular infantry. Regular Infantry has better movement and cheaper cost while Mech's are better at defending against more units. I guess the Stinger could be good in capturing properties in places hard for ground vehicles to reach though.
@@Teknanam If anything, I'd say that's an argument for the relative imbalance of the Battle Copter and the negative impacts that has on other areas of the game to equalize. The game-state is technically balanced, but it's clearly not a healthy state of balance.
@@Teknanam The thing is that the cost would be much lower (the same as the Mech) so you would be able to get out a Stinger or two MUCH sooner than an Anti-Air (giving you a good response to most Air Units in a bind), plus you'd be able to build other things alongside it (like a Battlecopter of your own). I'd imagine the engagement would be like that of a Mech to a Tank on a Road when facing a Battlecopter. Also one problem with the Anti-Air is that it can't reach Air Units in Mountain Ranges, the Stinger on the other hand would be able to get to them, this would be pretty nasty in Fog of War or with CO's who have movement increasing Powers (Sami Stingers in particular would be pretty horrifying during either Double Time or Victory March). It wouldn't be as good as an Anti-Air, but it would be a cheaper and more cost-effective solution, plus they aren't sitting ducks to Air Units when attacked either like Infantry or Mechs are and can do some chip damage.
Cant believe you though Eagle would be the CO for Battle Copters when Sensei Battlecopters are the living representation of the Anti-Christ even to AA when not careful ^^
I really like unit analysis. However, the advance war game I am most familiar with is Days of ruins/Dark Conflict. Can you do a video specifically how units are like in that game, since there are a bunch of important buffs, nerfs, and new units that make the meta game much difference compared to the other three advance wars games.
Great video explaining of the usefulness of Battle Copters, well done Mangs! I play the opposite, unit quality over quantity. I tend to shy away of building b-copters to save up on fighters and bombers. When I saw the damage showdown on battle copter vs any unit, I was quite surprised of it's durability with some units and with others, when they get first strike like the anti-air and the cruiser it goes down on one hit, unless you have a Grit cruiser to go up against a Kanbei battle copter. After I watched the battle copter video, I will build more battle copters. I seem to underestimate this unit. Mangs, I have 2 questions. My first question is about the mission called Hot Pursuit where you choose 3 CO's to battle Sturm. How come you didn't choose Sensei, Eagle, or Max? That map has airports on it plus those 3 CO's can do heavy damage with the affordable price battle copters. My other question is why did you pick Drake out of all the other CO's? Even though he does global damage for CO powers, he is not one of your favorite CO's plus his specialty is naval combat. I mentioned this because you said that naval units are more expensive than air units. You said air units are better than naval units, plus on that map with Sturm it had airports. I thought you liked Max because he can build powerful bombers and B-copters and when he uses his CO powers, he gets a firepower boost and a movement bonus as well. Do you not like Max as much? Thanks Mangs for this awesome video!
Sturm has no APC's in Hot Pursuit, meaning that popping Drake's little power twice would practically immobilize/kill most of Sturm's forces through the fuel drain, in a way soft countering a major part of Sturm's day to day ability.
wonder if there is a co that can allow all veachles to move though mountains and cross rivers like infantry can or give anti airs some range to fight back or reduce the missle trucks minimal range for viablity could be a hard counter or any CO that though there day to day powers can hard counter sensi's battle copter spam or any air co's spam will do nicelly here.
(14:30) Actually, both Recons and Tanks deal 10% to Battle Copters. So, Tanks aren't 1% stronger than Recons. (They are 1% stronger than Mechs, which deal 9% to Battle Copters, so maybe that's what was on your mind there.) (14:56) NeoTanks' 22% is not more than twice as much as Medium Tanks' 12%. (Yes, I guess I'm nitpicky about details like that.)
The reason cruisers don't do as good as anti air against battlecopters when being on the recieving end of a first attack despite being twice as expensive as a battlecopter and an anti air is because the 18000 funds you invest on a cruiser diverges toward spending on it's anti submarine ability and it's transportation utility and it's armor value. The design problem with unit balance that cruisers cause and makes them underwhelming is that you are forced to spend on anti submarine capability and transportation capability which, despite being cool and versatile, you will rarely use/need.
I just wish there was one or two other air unit types to balance out the number of ground units to air and naval units, the B-copter is often one of the only air units used since it is so well-rounded compared to ground unit options. I don't think the battle copter itself ever needs changing, but its interactions with certain other unit types probably could be changed for the better. While it has its hard counters with Anti-air and Missiles and fighters, there's nothing ground-based even at an expensive level that truly ultimately stops B-copters other than a quantity of AA; due to their high mobility at escaping, they can often dart around most threats. Their biggest weakness is getting blocked in by enemy units, but this is a rare situation.
Would it be a good idea to use Andy and spam his CO power? As long has you keep the Copter away from Antiair, the high defense of the Battle Copter should hold out for a long time.
The thing is Battle cops almost always forces a counter unit like anti air. When AA can clean up massed inf for cheap. They may end up going tank heavy which is more common. Also the main role I like them for is anti tank. which you know that you will see.
Bcopters imo should be 10,000 funds imo. Infantry are the most cost effective unit, but Bcopters (when you can afford them) are the most cost effective combat only unit. They definitely have the best overall engagement table for the 9,000 and are only set back by economy on certain maps. The Neotank vs Bcopter is like 4,400 (2 HP) vs 1,800 (2 HP) and 1,100 (1 HP) vs 2,700 (3 HP) is insanely good value, even when defending.
That's probably a fair suggestion. Any more than that and they would be over-costed for sure. I kind of feel like Choppa spam is a bit of a noob trap. It only really works against people who aren't using enough Anti-Air. Considering how effective Anti-Air are against infantry, good players are already building Anti-Air. Choppas are amazing but a few Anti Air can really limit their useful engagements.
Always thought stationary Copters didn't burn fuel on land and I'm not sure where I got that from. I probably conflated the whole Transport Copters needing to be above land to deploy infantry.
Missiles really should have had 2-5 range and note 3-5. That minimum range makes it absurdly easy for the units it's supposedly supposed to counter to counter **it**. Poor missile-chan.
That doesn't help its core issue. It needs at least higher maximum range than a flying unit's move to avoid being stabbed in the gut. And it can already be squished by anything on the ground. Artillery and Rockets have the terrain as a defensive measure, and are easier to protect with other units. As well as the treads on Artillery making it easier for them to move to a contested line. Trash range, trash move, extreme cost. They're overcosted by nearly a factor of 2. An anti-air is basically exactly this theoretical unit, except it can also sweep infantry. A missile needs to be literally cocooned by a giant blob of allied units before it's viable. And by then, you've probably either won the game or desperately want to quit the game. Even if it could literally counter air attacks with a 1-5 range, it'd still take 3,452% damage and explode to anything.
One important thing to note for new players is that Battle Copters cannot attack Fighters and Bombers. As in you can’t even target them. This seems counterintuitive since Battle Copters can target other Battle Copters and Transport Copters. I lost a game on AWBW because my opponent built a Bomber and I thought I could at least damage it with my B Copter but I needed to build a Fighter in response and didn’t.
I think the battlecoptor should punish the artillery a little more at 70% damage, but other than that I'm fine with the unit itself as is. Eh maybe throw in 3% damage vs fighters and 31% against bombers. I like the idea of a "can shoot everything but only good at certain things" unit and the battlecoptor is nearly there. I'm less fine about the state of it in AWBW. I feel like the who "only 2 bases" many league maps have is just entirely stupid. Now if you want to build a tank but might find yourself short on bases a battlecoptor might look attractive, but I feel like you should be building the battlecoptors more for mobility, or perhaps to counter enemy tanks, or that you start getting over 25K income and needing a way to spend it, not because 2 bases is a bottleneck. In games with 3 starting bases the bottleneck happens when both sides are further into the fight. I think only COs who get firepower bonuses to them like Eagle should be able to consistently one-shot transports without needing to roll the die and someone like Andy shouldn't be able to avoid the die with something like the whole com towers I've complained about in at least 3 separate videos and I won't go into more detail this time than "no I don't like them, if you want to play with them it's fine but I still don't." Another thing I don't like is that you don't see many 3 by 4 or 3 by 6 or 3 by 7 mountains in AWBW. I mostly like these in custom maps for Mechs, but you pointed out a possible hiding spot for battlecoptors which I've done before. And no my custom maps don't look like mountain spam, there are often at least 3 areas ground vehicles can fight in and some mountains are isolated, I just sometimes put a range on a side. Actually given the size of many AWBW maps, putting in a 3 by 7 mountain range would probably be a mistake given that doing so would cram all the roads and cities into a tight spot. Am I the only one who likes larger maps with a clustered core similar density to the league matches and a sparse periphery with few cities connected by roads?
B-Copters are great, although the interaction with Cruisers is weird. More related to Cruiser being awful than anything, but still; wouldn't hurt if their behavior was the same as Anti-Air when being attacked.
If we're going by real-life aesthetics, Orange Star's Battle Copter which is based off an AH-64 Apache, should have a 30mm cannon as its machine gun which would devastate anything that isn't a main battle tank (Medium Tanks) - the Gatling equivalent is used on A-10s and can shred MBTs in as little as 6 rounds. A Vulcan Cannon (which is what the Anti-Air uses) is a 20mm Gatling cannon yet it can do more damage against a regular Tank than a B Copter's machine gun.
The Apache's 30mm cannon is quite a bit less powerful than the A-10's. It is designed to fire explosive rounds at infantry or unarmoured trucks rather than firing armour piercing rounds at tanks, so it doesn't propel the shells to such a high speed.
Eh I admit I'm a newb, but I feel like battle copters are overrated. You're right. They are versatile, they can do decent tank like damage to most enemies. but as you pointed out, the few units that counter them, counter them HARD. Bcopters cost $9000. A tank costs $7000. Say I start spamming bcopters. A competent opponent will start spamming anti air. They'll keep their anti air behind their tanks, but in range of them. Say I get a shot on a tank. If it's on a plain, the most common terrain type, say, they lose 5 HP. Okay, I just did $3500 in damage. Say they're on a city, well, in some situations, I might only do like 3 HP or something, for $2100 damage. Then they can pull up their anti air. $8000 unit, BOOM, 1 shots my $9000 unit. I traded $3500 for $9000. Say I have a tank to counter their AA. Okay, I do, say, 6-7 damage against it. That's roughly $4800-5400 of damage. Maybe less if they're on a city too. It varies depending on COs, firepower bonuses, terrain, etc. The point is, they completely wrecked my one unit. Meanwhile, their 4-7 HP tank can fire back at something and still be reasonably effective. if the 7 HP tank was on a city, next turn it might turn back into a 9 HP tank meaning I barely did anything to it. Their anti air, which I hit with a tank, could still be dangerous if it throws itself at another battle copter. Say a 4 HP anti air, that could turn another 10 HP battle copter into a 6 HP one if it gets the first strike. And while i might win the engagement, I'm bleeding money like crazy. I get the whole rock paper scissors thing, and maybe I suck. I admit as far as online play goes, I'm a noob. But in my experience at least, battlecopters honestly have relatively limited effectiveness. The amount of engagements that I can take is rather low in practice, because any competent player could counter with anti air. And any unit I attack won't be 1 shotted, while mine will be. And even more so, the amount of damage I can do against units like tanks, infantry, etc., well, it's not gonna be anywhere near $9000 most of the time. If I do 2 HP to a MD or neotank, that's $3200-4400. Infantry? I do like $500-600. Tank? As I said, $2100-4900. And then one AA boi wrecks $9000 of value. Not the most cost effective unit in practice. That fragility vs its counters kind of kill its long term viability. You might get a couple decent engagements in, but you could be just as effective with another tank. The only time bcopters really shine is if the terrain is rough enough where they can quickly evade incoming anti air. But most competitive maps seem to be largely open terrain. Mostly plains, with some roads, some cities and forests dotting the landscape here and there, maybe the occasional river. The kinds of terrain you see in offline matches in game with large mountain ranges and rivers that really try to force you to use such units largely doesn't exist in competitive play. As I said everything is too open.
As someone who played wargroove first, I was very underwhelmed with the battle copter at first. Yes I realize harpies in wargroove are basically op but still.
@@robertharris6092 Alchemists are actually really good against air units. They one shot aeronauts and witches and do 85% to dragons. The really important thing is that they only cost 400 gold, which means an aeronaut's worth 1.5 alchemists, witches worth 2, dragons worth more than 3.
Battle Copters should stay the same. Though I would not complain if they could attack fighters and bombers with low (2-3) damage done. It would also be interesting if there was an "attack copter" unit. More expensive and faster, maybe with an slight firepower increase. An extra move space or two would probably be enough for a new copter unit though.
An additional copter unit that is *more offensive* than the Battle Copter would effectively be doubling down on a unit that is already deeply unhealthy for the unit balance of the game
What I think Battle Copters for the different nations should be Orange Star: AH-64-E Apache Blue Moon: Either the Mil Mi-28 or the Kamov Ka-50 (If you want to know why I went for these two instead of the more famous MiL-24 is because I think a hybrid between the battle copter and the transport copter would be a good idea and the Mil-24 would be a good for the blue moon version of this hybrid) Green Earth: Eurocopter Tiger Yellow Comet: Bell AH-1 Cobra (Japan is one of the current operators. The Cobra has been retired in US service) Black Hole: A futuristic helicopter based on experimental and cancled military programes like the RAH-66 Comanche, AVX FARA, Sikorsky Raider X and the Bell 360 Invictus
I would still say that B copter isn’t great in a large use. What make them strong isn’t their offense capability (tank do a little more dmg agaisnt some target, equal otherwise on any ground unit). It’s their defensive capability agaisnt any common unit (except anti air). Mobility on heavy terrainis also a key but not forever. What make them good is usually to force the enemy to buy 2 or more anti air for a single B copter. And they are also good to catch indirect . On the lategame B copter aren’t seen much since while they can do cost effective dmg agaisnt Md tank and neotank, they do poor dmg to them anyway and bomber can start to replace B copter
Bruh, half baked analysis, unit count is important, bomber cost more than two times of copters, to the point you can counter anti air with copter tank combo
I'd say it's a pretty glaring flaw in the game's balance that there's a unit that is almost always involved in cripple-or-be-crippled combat. A unit that is so cost effective that you should still build it even if your opponent has adapted their strategy to counter it. A unit that even can reliably but situationally engage units that are meant to counter it. And such a unit is priced out that it's feasible to be a bread and butter unit. Such a unit would absolutely have far reaching ramifications to the overall unit balance of the game, warping that delicate balance structure and the competitive meta around itself just by existing. It will inevitably lead to a stale meta, and a persistently stale meta is inevitably a dead competitive scene. It probably won't happen with the Advance Wars 1+2 Reboot, but if there is a future Advance Wars game planned, it had better have some big changes involved with Battle Copters. They may ultimately be balanced in the current state of the game, but that is only true by virtue of the entire game being twisted around them to achieve a balanced state.
Just finished a battle against someone who was spamming tanks and some anti air on fog of war. I realized early on that they reduced infantry production to get an extra tank over me but i had artillery. Once i had that under control, i got battle copters out and their AA had little presence. If he made more, he'd lose the tanks and have no counter to mine. They resigned after I used my Super and they realized how out of control the front lines were. This was Sonja vs Von Bolt, they might have made a bit of a fight of it if they attacked into me and popped super but Counter Break is pretty good even against Von Bolt. If they went in like that, they would lose too much health for the effect of the super to do much to save them. Sometimes a CO like that can get overwhelmed before they have a chance to pop that juicy Super.
@@spongbobsquarepants3922 Mangs is a Fire Emblem fan. Maybe it's one of the FE optional dialogue I missed? It doesn't sound familiar to be though and I'd think I'd know it if it was well known.
I know you mentioned it in the other video, but I think you should have probably restated that cruisers can transport copters in this video too. Some people might not have seen the other vid
14:12 this is the one that puzzles me. Helicopters are the perfect thing to shoot down with a shoulder mounted missile in real life. Would have been a great way to balance out mechs if they could take down battlecopters and transports in one shot.
"Battle copter can counter tanks" Meanwhile, in our universe: The copters don't have any rockets? Well then, how does it feel taking an AP round to the face?
The more I've played AWBW the more I've come to the conclusion that Battle Copters are one of the worst design decisions in the game. You have a unit that dominates all but 1-2 ground units that doesn't compete with your ground units for production, and that half of it's supposed counters don't work against, and of the other half one of them is dependant on terrain accommodating it and another is ITSELF. This leaves the Battle Copter with only 1 fully consistent counter in the Fighter, a unit that costs over twice as much which is also just shot down just as easily by Anti-air.
I like the subtle usage of various COs that tend to be seen using the various units.
"Subtle"
Incroyable.
Sensei's theme is an absolute bop.
Funny thing is, im a driver for a 50 cal humvee, which would basically be a “recon” in AW and i was on a training cycle a little while ago and we learned that enemy tanks were inbound on one of the roads, .50 cal humvees cant take tanks just like recons cant so we pulled back some in time for friendly Apaches (b copters) to fly by and destroy the tanks….. after that whole situation i thought. “ man i wanna play some advance wars when i get back”
or maybe call in a fighter (A-10c) next time!
@@Dubanx a-10 isnt a fighter...
@@Dubanx The A in A-10 stands for (ground) assault.
As opposed to the F for fighter in F-14.
@@robertharris6092
and you realize that I'm making a joke about how the green earth "fighter" is an A-10, right?
@@christopherg2347 and you realize that I'm making a joke about how the green earth "fighter" is an A-10, right?
I also find it weird that in the thumbnail you have a squad of Copters go up against a Bomber, one of 2 units they CANT fire on.
Mangs resorting to clickbait, shameful.
When sensei can’t spam anymore Mechs with his superpower cuz he’s flooded the field with his copters.
*suffering from success*
There was a slight change to battle copters in Days of Ruin.
Their firepower against most ground vehicles was increased (save for AAA, where their firepower was debuffed), making them harder counters to tanks, medium tanks, recons, and so on.
Their firepower received a massive nerf against cruisers and a slight nerf against most naval units.
More crucially, firepower of virtually all units when firing on battle copters was buffed (more base damage, less luck damage), which means your copters will be more quickly chipped away at and suffer death by a million paper cuts.
These slight tweaks turns them from a primary versatile all-around brawler into a more specialized tank killer.
While were at it i could also mention the missiles having +1 range and most importantly the duster which is a 13k plane copter hunter and a lesser fighter
I really wish for another new advance wars to builds on DoR.
Maybe make the carrier easier to use, increase the price of the bike and AT, maybe make a new naval unit that can do most of the things the missle boat does but isn't as obnoxious.
I actually rather they do that then the reboot which really is just a remaster. DoR has it's balance issues but it was a step forward for the franchise and the new game should build on it and improve it further. Reboot is kind of a regression.
@@MrMarinus18The price of the bike and AT are good.
Battlecopters, the pegasus knights of fire emblem, the diference is that battlecopters can't rescue infantry so their counsin transport copter has to do the job
@Ferny Panda absolutly broken.
@@robertharris6092 you only get a certain amount and still die to missles that can move and attack
@@thunderknight4149 a certain ammount? Also missiles cant move and attack.
@Ferny Panda Your potential to attack would be castrated by the need to take a turn to dump off your infantry!
@Ferny Panda Sensei in his Prime Time.
Battlecopters are really strong if you know how to properly position and move them across the map, they are perfect for surprise attacks.
In FOW.
Ah yes of course, forgot to mention that last bit only applies for FOW.
So most of any unit then
BOSS, GET DOWN! That's an enemy gunship. A single burst from its machine gun can cut a man in half. Tread carefully, Boss.
One thing I think is worth pointing out on the Fighter vs. Battle copter is that fighters may cost so much more, but they also tend to help control and pressure your opponents in relation to their battle copters. Thanks to the fighter's larger movement they can put a lot of pressure on enemy copters even if they aren't direclty fighting them, which can help you control the flow of the match and what your opponents are likely to look into building or where they move their battle copters. Obviously that's hard to quantify and comes down heavily down to player skill as well, but I do think it's an important thing to consider in the fighter vs Bcopter matchup specifically.
I love the fact that you create custom maps specially for demonstrating the unit you are covering. It actually really helps gets what you're talking about across, as someone who is a very visual learner.
yea certainly goes well with the clickbait thumbnail that would literally never occur since the helicopters can't fire on bombers 👍
Even if "they fly now" was cringe, it cracked me up
I feel like all ships need to be 2 to 3 times tougher against everything that isn't a ship. its absurd how expensive they are for units that perform about as well or worse than ground or air equivalents.
Edit: isn't a ship or a bomber, bombers should still wreck ships.
No I think bombers should not wreck ships even if it's realistic. I think bobmers should do marginally better than battlecoptors, but not be able to wreck them since bombers are not restricted to sea tiles so for balence purposes the ships should be durable so that sea matches make people consider landers and ships over transport coptors and bombers (said bombers and transprot coptors wouldn't be obsolete since people still build them in land matches). I think the only non ship thing that should do significant damage to ships is Neotanks.
How powerful did you want the Battleship to be?
'Cause it's already pretty darn strong.
Againts altilery and rockets ir makes sense
@@a-s-greig AW1/2/DS battleships are one of the worst units in the game.
Ive always thought that battlecopters are pretty op. Maybe, its also because Sensei's so strong.
They are quite good, they die in one hit against anti air but they don't have many counter, anti air, missile, B-copters and fighter (and some naval units but you rarely see those in comptetive plays), meanwhile tanks have many counters with some being pretty cheap (AKA mechs) so yeah Air units are pretty OP, a shame that sea units doesn't cost 70% less because they would be more used and remember that sea units are restricted while air units have no movement cost.
Greyfield in a B.Copter, oh boy... you could usually get away with shooting them with Mechs in the mountains, but his zoned B.Copters have more defense than Waylon's and Tasha's (+40 compared to +30 and +20, respectively,) assuming you're in a pre-deploy map with no Airports or Fighters.
Well if you only play sensei, yes
I think it's not so much that b copters are op, it's just that units that are meant to have interesting interactions with them like missiles, fighters and cruisers are overpriced
@@IIxIxIv missile isn't overpriced, its just bad, if you manage to pull a good shot you earn yourself in twice, that's not overpriced at all
One thing that isn't mentioned here is that the B-copter might be the most flexible unit in AW and AW2; the only units it can't attack are the fighter and bomber. In AWDS the stealth fighter can attack everything, but is practically difficult to deploy due to it's cost and extreme fuel usage.
In days of ruin they removed the coin flip situation with t copters by reducing the damage dealt to 85%
Also sensei's b copter can out damage his bombers against certain units when he uses his his co power.
This is because unit defense is weird
I wasn't aware of that. That's a good change imo.
@@Mangs1337 sorry it's days of ruin not dual strike
unit defense is not that weird. Even tho sensei's bombers don't suffer damage penalty, the firepower boost he receives on his copters is so ridiculously high that it becomes better when attacking units it's deployed to. Their missles are not meant to fire navy units for example... this is why even with COP, a bcopter isn't any better than a bomber. This does not apply against ground units tho.
DoR also buffs cruisers to the point they hard counter B copters.
@@robertharris6092 DOR with Sensei?
That thumbnail though. Battlecopter vs. Bomber is literally the only combination a Battle Copter cannot appear in.
Love you, Mangs.
:))
looks like clickbait
Watch out for Anti-Air and Cruisers with movement increases though. Battle Copters won’t be able to outrun them anymore. Lash’s Anti-Air can also be very scary.
"I spam B-chopters and my tanks focus the ennemy anti air then the ennemy panic and spam anti air", meanwhile a chad CO will build a fighter so now you'll be building anti air.
in a mid range funds 16k-22k match, usually the player that dumps funds to build a fighter just loses. A fighter needs to score multiple kills to equate to its own value so it's rare to see them built.
@@badassoverlordzetta I play standard income FOW ranked match and I often see and use fighters, because what counter a fighter ? Another fighter, AA and missile, but the fighter is pretty fast and usualy such unit is well covered. Some official maps can go with +20 000 daily income and against certain CO you'll have to bank. So you are wrong. I wanted to throw in some matches to prove my point but I forgot to upload them (and discovered that one got a bad quality) but I'm working on publishing it, having your opponent use a fighter means that he got the air superiority especialy since he will cover that unit and you won't deploy a missile just to counter a fighter, but you need air units, and you can't gather a death ball if your opponent air units destroy your ground units......
@@badassoverlordzetta I also have to disagree. I was losing pretty badly to my opponent in one of my games but decided to fight on for the fun and to see if i can force hold out long enough my opponent decides to accept a draw. (this is during a practice battle, not a league match.) He had an income of 20k funds to my 16k funds, but by saving for a fighter and also a bomber later, I was able to surprise my opponent with units he had no response for several turns. They were also fast enough to pull back at the first sign of an anti-air or opposing fighter.
Looking at the replay, my total unit value was actually higher than my opponent for several turns after this despite the income difference until eventually I was forced to sacrifice both my fighter and bomber to defend a base he was close to capturing. At that point, I lost my value lead. I resigned when I saw a NeoTank, something I knew I could not fight with my remaining 14k income left to his 22k. The fighter and bomber was totally a right call and my opponent messaged me afterwards that for a long time, he was seriously considering accepting the draw offer. Note: I was playing as Sonja against Lash so it's not like my CO was the reason the fighter and bomber were so good.
@@fluhfie4602 There are certainly times when you can turn crisis into opportunity with an unusual build choice, I'm just saying from my experience in Fog 1100-1300 matches that in those income ranges most opponents will flat out obliterate you for dumping a whole turn of funds into a Fighter. Out of about 160 ranked matches I've only had three games I can remember where a Fighter was worthwhile. One was as a soft counter to a Stealth so my opponent was even further behind on unit count due to that investment. The other two times I was playing Eagle was able to score multiple battle copter kills in one lightning strike.
And I also never discussed Bombers which are an entirely different topic. Bombers are a counter to Neotanks which means they can earn their entire investment in a single kill, a far cry from what a Fighter needs to accomplish to justify its cost. Because ground combat in mid funds matches can easily still go to Neotanks (sometimes even more frequently than Md Tanks due to their superior mobility) which makes bombers a much more reasonable unit to see in league matches.
i don't even play advance wars but I LOVE THESE VIDS
thanks for making them dude
I also play Age of Empires 2 and the general role of battle copters seem to mirror knight line in AoE2. Both are very mobile units that compete with a cheaper unit for scouting, (recons and the scout line) and having decent to very good match ups with most other units. The thing that ties it all together is a unit that is specifically designed to demolish that unit (anti-air in AW and the spearman line in AoE2).
Think I'd like a big copter unit.
Such a price gap in the air units between the B Copter's 9000 and the Fighter's 20000, and Dual Strike only added more expensive air units.
Wait what?
The Days of Ruin Duster is plane with a propeller that costs 13000?
Huh.
Just had an idea watching this video.
Airports could have their own air defence system. That way, when enemy air units attack your air units on the airport, the attacker will take some damage even if they destroy their target.
An alternative option would be to give air units some defence stars on airports, but only against enemy air units. This would simulate the reduced accuracy caused by trying to avoid the air defences while attacking.
Not sure how fun it would be, but it would be more realistic.
I don't think it would end up being fun, first thing is that it's on you if thr ennemy reaches your airport, second is that it just kinda prevents you from attacking the unit, making a weird stalemate where both opponent have to stay far from airports unless its a really good engagement
You can always deploy anti air and missiles near your airports as what they are, AIR DEFENSE UNITS
"Get to the Choppa!"- Anti-Air
i love sensei's theme
I’m just waiting for the inevitable pipe runner video.
Do it, you coward!
Hooray, my avatar's in this one ;)
One thing that might be worth adding: battle copters can't heal on cities like ground units can, which maybe balances out how little counterattack damage they tend to take. Or maybe that low counterattack damage balances the fact that it's harder to heal them? I guess it's a glass half empty/full situation. Certainly it puts that low ammo count into even more perspective: as you say, a battle copter that has run out of ammo has done *insanely* well.
They fly now…
I laughed way more than I would like to admit
@@lastburning
You need more interestelar traveling youngling
I would prefer if mechs soft countered battlecopters
Mechs that use their bazooka Battlefield style?
@@kirbyis4ever SAMs small enough to be carried by a single person and used at medium to short range are a thing
@@PhailRaptor Stinger missile mechs!
I would say realistically battle copters should probably take more damage from mounted machine guns, but what can you do.
They'd be useless if just anything could bring them down.
10:50 it's not just luck damage. They do 2-6/100 HP damage to the attacking Bcupter
Huh, I wonder what your plan for that one Fighter you had was? The one 2 spaces below the enemy B. Copter?
I'd introduce a unit that would technically nerf the Battlecopter on top of the Duster (the Duster would likely be buffed so that it has a coin-flip in it's ability to one-shot B-Copters). The Stinger unit, it would basically be a Mech, but instead of it's launcher targeting ground units it would target air units with the exception of the Fighter (mostly for the Fighter's sake) and Cloaked air units. Outside of it's main weapon targeting air units it would be statically identical to the Mech, so it would have trouble getting to them, but at the same time they'd be pretty good at capturing because they can retaliate against Battlecopters and Dusters, making them not a sure bet. They'd look distinctly different from Mechs however (with VERY different launchers) so you'd be able to tell if said unit is a Mech or a Stinger.
This is to give Infantry specialists a means of anti-aircraft defense on-foot, part of the massive revitalization that I'd give to Infantry combat, one of the 5 new foot units that I'd introduce, the two notable ones would be the Marksman and Mortar Team which would be indirect combat units.
Admittedly the unit name is a bit of a placeholder as I really can't think of a better name for it.
One issue is the current infantry specialists (Sami and Sensei) still have good anti-airs vs. copters. Base damage for AAs vs. copters is 120, so even with Sami and Sensei's 10% reduced firepower on their vehicles, their Anti-airs will still one-shot copters of most COs. Which begs the questions of why deploy an anti-air infantry over a Mech or regular infantry. Regular Infantry has better movement and cheaper cost while Mech's are better at defending against more units. I guess the Stinger could be good in capturing properties in places hard for ground vehicles to reach though.
@@Teknanam If anything, I'd say that's an argument for the relative imbalance of the Battle Copter and the negative impacts that has on other areas of the game to equalize. The game-state is technically balanced, but it's clearly not a healthy state of balance.
@@Teknanam The thing is that the cost would be much lower (the same as the Mech) so you would be able to get out a Stinger or two MUCH sooner than an Anti-Air (giving you a good response to most Air Units in a bind), plus you'd be able to build other things alongside it (like a Battlecopter of your own).
I'd imagine the engagement would be like that of a Mech to a Tank on a Road when facing a Battlecopter. Also one problem with the Anti-Air is that it can't reach Air Units in Mountain Ranges, the Stinger on the other hand would be able to get to them, this would be pretty nasty in Fog of War or with CO's who have movement increasing Powers (Sami Stingers in particular would be pretty horrifying during either Double Time or Victory March).
It wouldn't be as good as an Anti-Air, but it would be a cheaper and more cost-effective solution, plus they aren't sitting ducks to Air Units when attacked either like Infantry or Mechs are and can do some chip damage.
Sorry, I'm gonna need to watch this through again. I was too busy vibing to Sensei's theme.
Can't believe I expected eagle to be the CO for the copters. Of COURSE you would use sensei!
Cant believe you though Eagle would be the CO for Battle Copters when Sensei Battlecopters are the living representation of the Anti-Christ even to AA when not careful ^^
Your lighting setup looks a lot better in this video, Mangs. Finally not a pale Mangs drowning in monitor glare!
I really like unit analysis. However, the advance war game I am most familiar with is Days of ruins/Dark Conflict. Can you do a video specifically how units are like in that game, since there are a bunch of important buffs, nerfs, and new units that make the meta game much difference compared to the other three advance wars games.
Great video explaining of the usefulness of Battle Copters, well done Mangs! I play the opposite, unit quality over quantity. I tend to shy away of building b-copters to save up on fighters and bombers. When I saw the damage showdown on battle copter vs any unit, I was quite surprised of it's durability with some units and with others, when they get first strike like the anti-air and the cruiser it goes down on one hit, unless you have a Grit cruiser to go up against a Kanbei battle copter. After I watched the battle copter video, I will build more battle copters. I seem to underestimate this unit. Mangs, I have 2 questions. My first question is about the mission called Hot Pursuit where you choose 3 CO's to battle Sturm. How come you didn't choose Sensei, Eagle, or Max? That map has airports on it plus those 3 CO's can do heavy damage with the affordable price battle copters. My other question is why did you pick Drake out of all the other CO's? Even though he does global damage for CO powers, he is not one of your favorite CO's plus his specialty is naval combat. I mentioned this because you said that naval units are more expensive than air units. You said air units are better than naval units, plus on that map with Sturm it had airports. I thought you liked Max because he can build powerful bombers and B-copters and when he uses his CO powers, he gets a firepower boost and a movement bonus as well. Do you not like Max as much? Thanks Mangs for this awesome video!
I think Mangs has said something about picking unconventional COs in the campaign to challenge himself.
Sturm has no APC's in Hot Pursuit, meaning that popping Drake's little power twice would practically immobilize/kill most of Sturm's forces through the fuel drain, in a way soft countering a major part of Sturm's day to day ability.
Trust me, building expensive unit is not a priority unit unless it's a stalemate sitiation
wonder if there is a co that can allow all veachles to move though mountains and cross rivers like infantry can or give anti airs some range to fight back or reduce the missle trucks minimal range for viablity could be a hard counter or any CO that though there day to day powers can hard counter sensi's battle copter spam or any air co's spam will do nicelly here.
Just want to take a moment and say the obvious… sensei theme is amazing
(14:30) Actually, both Recons and Tanks deal 10% to Battle Copters. So, Tanks aren't 1% stronger than Recons. (They are 1% stronger than Mechs, which deal 9% to Battle Copters, so maybe that's what was on your mind there.)
(14:56) NeoTanks' 22% is not more than twice as much as Medium Tanks' 12%.
(Yes, I guess I'm nitpicky about details like that.)
I’m amazed he hasn’t played Valkyria Chronicles considering hpw much he likes Fire Emblem and Advance Wars
When in doubt. Helo-rush
Oh wait this isn't Wargame: Red Dragon ...
The reason cruisers don't do as good as anti air against battlecopters when being on the recieving end of a first attack despite being twice as expensive as a battlecopter and an anti air is because the 18000 funds you invest on a cruiser diverges toward spending on it's anti submarine ability and it's transportation utility and it's armor value. The design problem with unit balance that cruisers cause and makes them underwhelming is that you are forced to spend on anti submarine capability and transportation capability which, despite being cool and versatile, you will rarely use/need.
I just wish there was one or two other air unit types to balance out the number of ground units to air and naval units, the B-copter is often one of the only air units used since it is so well-rounded compared to ground unit options. I don't think the battle copter itself ever needs changing, but its interactions with certain other unit types probably could be changed for the better. While it has its hard counters with Anti-air and Missiles and fighters, there's nothing ground-based even at an expensive level that truly ultimately stops B-copters other than a quantity of AA; due to their high mobility at escaping, they can often dart around most threats. Their biggest weakness is getting blocked in by enemy units, but this is a rare situation.
Would it be a good idea to use Andy and spam his CO power? As long has you keep the Copter away from Antiair, the high defense of the Battle Copter should hold out for a long time.
For the first few of your videos I watched I was convinced you were saying bottle copters
The thing is Battle cops almost always forces a counter unit like anti air. When AA can clean up massed inf for cheap. They may end up going tank heavy which is more common. Also the main role I like them for is anti tank. which you know that you will see.
Can't wait for Flak to get indirect anti air
I was wondering why you didn't use Sensei for the mech video the other day until I realized that there were battle copters left
Wait that song
No
Man, we need Medium Tank Senpai
Cursed thumbnail, Battle Copters Vs Bomber lol.
hello mangs. I love your videos! Cheers from Chile :P
Bcopters imo should be 10,000 funds imo.
Infantry are the most cost effective unit, but Bcopters (when you can afford them) are the most cost effective combat only unit. They definitely have the best overall engagement table for the 9,000 and are only set back by economy on certain maps. The Neotank vs Bcopter is like 4,400 (2 HP) vs 1,800 (2 HP) and 1,100 (1 HP) vs 2,700 (3 HP) is insanely good value, even when defending.
That's probably a fair suggestion. Any more than that and they would be over-costed for sure.
I kind of feel like Choppa spam is a bit of a noob trap. It only really works against people who aren't using enough Anti-Air. Considering how effective Anti-Air are against infantry, good players are already building Anti-Air. Choppas are amazing but a few Anti Air can really limit their useful engagements.
P1: I build a B Copter
P2: No! I build an AA to counter
P1: *Also builds a tank* GOTCHA B!TCH!
Always thought stationary Copters didn't burn fuel on land and I'm not sure where I got that from.
I probably conflated the whole Transport Copters needing to be above land to deploy infantry.
Eagle's passive drops their per-day fuel to 0
@@Darkside007 And he does that over water somehow.
@@JaxOf7 Training!
@@JaxOf7 Equipped with pontoon struts, it's perfectly natural for helicopters to float just like a seaplane
@@PhailRaptor Are you telling me
the guy with the worst naval units
turns his helicopters into boats?
Missiles really should have had 2-5 range and note 3-5. That minimum range makes it absurdly easy for the units it's supposedly supposed to counter to counter **it**. Poor missile-chan.
That doesn't help its core issue. It needs at least higher maximum range than a flying unit's move to avoid being stabbed in the gut. And it can already be squished by anything on the ground. Artillery and Rockets have the terrain as a defensive measure, and are easier to protect with other units. As well as the treads on Artillery making it easier for them to move to a contested line.
Trash range, trash move, extreme cost. They're overcosted by nearly a factor of 2. An anti-air is basically exactly this theoretical unit, except it can also sweep infantry. A missile needs to be literally cocooned by a giant blob of allied units before it's viable. And by then, you've probably either won the game or desperately want to quit the game.
Even if it could literally counter air attacks with a 1-5 range, it'd still take 3,452% damage and explode to anything.
@@BMoser-bv6kn Agreed. Missiles are more about strategic area denial than anything else.
Anti Air, please.
One important thing to note for new players is that Battle Copters cannot attack Fighters and Bombers. As in you can’t even target them. This seems counterintuitive since Battle Copters can target other Battle Copters and Transport Copters. I lost a game on AWBW because my opponent built a Bomber and I thought I could at least damage it with my B Copter but I needed to build a Fighter in response and didn’t.
Helicopters have a much lower ceiling and top speed than planes. NintenWars is educational!
I think the battlecoptor should punish the artillery a little more at 70% damage, but other than that I'm fine with the unit itself as is. Eh maybe throw in 3% damage vs fighters and 31% against bombers. I like the idea of a "can shoot everything but only good at certain things" unit and the battlecoptor is nearly there. I'm less fine about the state of it in AWBW. I feel like the who "only 2 bases" many league maps have is just entirely stupid. Now if you want to build a tank but might find yourself short on bases a battlecoptor might look attractive, but I feel like you should be building the battlecoptors more for mobility, or perhaps to counter enemy tanks, or that you start getting over 25K income and needing a way to spend it, not because 2 bases is a bottleneck. In games with 3 starting bases the bottleneck happens when both sides are further into the fight. I think only COs who get firepower bonuses to them like Eagle should be able to consistently one-shot transports without needing to roll the die and someone like Andy shouldn't be able to avoid the die with something like the whole com towers I've complained about in at least 3 separate videos and I won't go into more detail this time than "no I don't like them, if you want to play with them it's fine but I still don't." Another thing I don't like is that you don't see many 3 by 4 or 3 by 6 or 3 by 7 mountains in AWBW. I mostly like these in custom maps for Mechs, but you pointed out a possible hiding spot for battlecoptors which I've done before. And no my custom maps don't look like mountain spam, there are often at least 3 areas ground vehicles can fight in and some mountains are isolated, I just sometimes put a range on a side. Actually given the size of many AWBW maps, putting in a 3 by 7 mountain range would probably be a mistake given that doing so would cram all the roads and cities into a tight spot. Am I the only one who likes larger maps with a clustered core similar density to the league matches and a sparse periphery with few cities connected by roads?
Bahdelcopter... do you know these moments when words start to sound weird because you heard it too often 😂
Liked the video and mostly vibed to the music. What were you talking about again?
B-Copters are great, although the interaction with Cruisers is weird. More related to Cruiser being awful than anything, but still; wouldn't hurt if their behavior was the same as Anti-Air when being attacked.
i find it weird how nobody mentions max's copters, they are easily one of his best units.
If we're going by real-life aesthetics, Orange Star's Battle Copter which is based off an AH-64 Apache, should have a 30mm cannon as its machine gun which would devastate anything that isn't a main battle tank (Medium Tanks) - the Gatling equivalent is used on A-10s and can shred MBTs in as little as 6 rounds. A Vulcan Cannon (which is what the Anti-Air uses) is a 20mm Gatling cannon yet it can do more damage against a regular Tank than a B Copter's machine gun.
The Apache's 30mm cannon is quite a bit less powerful than the A-10's. It is designed to fire explosive rounds at infantry or unarmoured trucks rather than firing armour piercing rounds at tanks, so it doesn't propel the shells to such a high speed.
Eh I admit I'm a newb, but I feel like battle copters are overrated. You're right. They are versatile, they can do decent tank like damage to most enemies. but as you pointed out, the few units that counter them, counter them HARD.
Bcopters cost $9000. A tank costs $7000. Say I start spamming bcopters. A competent opponent will start spamming anti air. They'll keep their anti air behind their tanks, but in range of them. Say I get a shot on a tank. If it's on a plain, the most common terrain type, say, they lose 5 HP. Okay, I just did $3500 in damage. Say they're on a city, well, in some situations, I might only do like 3 HP or something, for $2100 damage.
Then they can pull up their anti air. $8000 unit, BOOM, 1 shots my $9000 unit. I traded $3500 for $9000.
Say I have a tank to counter their AA. Okay, I do, say, 6-7 damage against it. That's roughly $4800-5400 of damage. Maybe less if they're on a city too. It varies depending on COs, firepower bonuses, terrain, etc.
The point is, they completely wrecked my one unit.
Meanwhile, their 4-7 HP tank can fire back at something and still be reasonably effective. if the 7 HP tank was on a city, next turn it might turn back into a 9 HP tank meaning I barely did anything to it. Their anti air, which I hit with a tank, could still be dangerous if it throws itself at another battle copter. Say a 4 HP anti air, that could turn another 10 HP battle copter into a 6 HP one if it gets the first strike. And while i might win the engagement, I'm bleeding money like crazy.
I get the whole rock paper scissors thing, and maybe I suck. I admit as far as online play goes, I'm a noob. But in my experience at least, battlecopters honestly have relatively limited effectiveness. The amount of engagements that I can take is rather low in practice, because any competent player could counter with anti air. And any unit I attack won't be 1 shotted, while mine will be. And even more so, the amount of damage I can do against units like tanks, infantry, etc., well, it's not gonna be anywhere near $9000 most of the time. If I do 2 HP to a MD or neotank, that's $3200-4400. Infantry? I do like $500-600. Tank? As I said, $2100-4900. And then one AA boi wrecks $9000 of value.
Not the most cost effective unit in practice. That fragility vs its counters kind of kill its long term viability. You might get a couple decent engagements in, but you could be just as effective with another tank. The only time bcopters really shine is if the terrain is rough enough where they can quickly evade incoming anti air.
But most competitive maps seem to be largely open terrain. Mostly plains, with some roads, some cities and forests dotting the landscape here and there, maybe the occasional river. The kinds of terrain you see in offline matches in game with large mountain ranges and rivers that really try to force you to use such units largely doesn't exist in competitive play. As I said everything is too open.
I think the fact that you are a newb is the reason why you think battle copters are overrated :>
Are you going to talk about the machine gun of vehicles?
As someone who played wargroove first, I was very underwhelmed with the battle copter at first. Yes I realize harpies in wargroove are basically op but still.
Battle copters are still great in AW! Especially with Sensei, obviously.
Alchemists seem really underwhwlming against air units.
@@robertharris6092 Alchemists are actually really good against air units. They one shot aeronauts and witches and do 85% to dragons. The really important thing is that they only cost 400 gold, which means an aeronaut's worth 1.5 alchemists, witches worth 2, dragons worth more than 3.
Thumbnail: I see what you did there you logically inconsistent rascal
Nothing's cringe your humor is good, keep it up.
Battle Copters should stay the same. Though I would not complain if they could attack fighters and bombers with low (2-3) damage done.
It would also be interesting if there was an "attack copter" unit. More expensive and faster, maybe with an slight firepower increase. An extra move space or two would probably be enough for a new copter unit though.
"He shoot two F-16s with a Hind D!?"
An additional copter unit that is *more offensive* than the Battle Copter would effectively be doubling down on a unit that is already deeply unhealthy for the unit balance of the game
What I think Battle Copters for the different nations should be
Orange Star: AH-64-E Apache
Blue Moon: Either the Mil Mi-28 or the Kamov Ka-50 (If you want to know why I went for these two instead of the more famous MiL-24 is because I think a hybrid between the battle copter and the transport copter would be a good idea and the Mil-24 would be a good for the blue moon version of this hybrid)
Green Earth: Eurocopter Tiger
Yellow Comet: Bell AH-1 Cobra (Japan is one of the current operators. The Cobra has been retired in US service)
Black Hole: A futuristic helicopter based on experimental and cancled military programes like the RAH-66 Comanche, AVX FARA, Sikorsky Raider X and the Bell 360 Invictus
Du måste göra såna här guider till Wargroove också. Sorry men du måste
I would still say that B copter isn’t great in a large use. What make them strong isn’t their offense capability (tank do a little more dmg agaisnt some target, equal otherwise on any ground unit). It’s their defensive capability agaisnt any common unit (except anti air). Mobility on heavy terrainis also a key but not forever. What make them good is usually to force the enemy to buy 2 or more anti air for a single B copter. And they are also good to catch indirect . On the lategame B copter aren’t seen much since while they can do cost effective dmg agaisnt Md tank and neotank, they do poor dmg to them anyway and bomber can start to replace B copter
Bruh, half baked analysis, unit count is important, bomber cost more than two times of copters, to the point you can counter anti air with copter tank combo
I'd say it's a pretty glaring flaw in the game's balance that there's a unit that is almost always involved in cripple-or-be-crippled combat. A unit that is so cost effective that you should still build it even if your opponent has adapted their strategy to counter it. A unit that even can reliably but situationally engage units that are meant to counter it. And such a unit is priced out that it's feasible to be a bread and butter unit.
Such a unit would absolutely have far reaching ramifications to the overall unit balance of the game, warping that delicate balance structure and the competitive meta around itself just by existing. It will inevitably lead to a stale meta, and a persistently stale meta is inevitably a dead competitive scene. It probably won't happen with the Advance Wars 1+2 Reboot, but if there is a future Advance Wars game planned, it had better have some big changes involved with Battle Copters. They may ultimately be balanced in the current state of the game, but that is only true by virtue of the entire game being twisted around them to achieve a balanced state.
It is more or less a glass Cannon unit. I say it's pretty balance.
6:50 Too bad you can't do this type of scouting in AWBW 😭
Just finished a battle against someone who was spamming tanks and some anti air on fog of war. I realized early on that they reduced infantry production to get an extra tank over me but i had artillery. Once i had that under control, i got battle copters out and their AA had little presence. If he made more, he'd lose the tanks and have no counter to mine. They resigned after I used my Super and they realized how out of control the front lines were. This was Sonja vs Von Bolt, they might have made a bit of a fight of it if they attacked into me and popped super but Counter Break is pretty good even against Von Bolt. If they went in like that, they would lose too much health for the effect of the super to do much to save them. Sometimes a CO like that can get overwhelmed before they have a chance to pop that juicy Super.
Time without Mangs dropping a cringe meme: 0:55 seconds
What was the meme? I did not understand that.
@@spongbobsquarepants3922 Mangs is a Fire Emblem fan. Maybe it's one of the FE optional dialogue I missed? It doesn't sound familiar to be though and I'd think I'd know it if it was well known.
@@spongbobsquarepants3922 "they fly now" it's from one of the newer star wars movies
I am surprise to they did 4 games and still no soldier with anti air missile launcher .
So gald we are the lovely people according to Mangs
The clickbait thumbnail made me click!
Im glad i did
🥚
I know you mentioned it in the other video, but I think you should have probably restated that cruisers can transport copters in this video too. Some people might not have seen the other vid
Of all the videos that he could have integrated that fascinating factoid into, I'm kind of shocked that it isn't this one
Another point is IF (big IF) your BCopter has run out of missiles it can still harass infantry, mechs, artillery rockets, ect with its machine guns
14:12 this is the one that puzzles me. Helicopters are the perfect thing to shoot down with a shoulder mounted missile in real life. Would have been a great way to balance out mechs if they could take down battlecopters and transports in one shot.
I love this game but my only complaing about this game is that I wish it has more units.
"Battle copter can counter tanks"
Meanwhile, in our universe:
The copters don't have any rockets? Well then, how does it feel taking an AP round to the face?
Why not do these showcases in Dual Strike? Since there are some units in that game that don't show up un AW2. Not hating, only wondering why.
Because of the AW 1+2 Reboot
Just came across this video. Really appreciated the thorough discussion and amount of effort you put into it, Mangs!
Copters are cool, but what about Carriers?
Late comment.
OS BCopters are Apaches
BM BCs are Bell-407s
YC BCs are Bell 47s
GE BCs are Mi-24 Hinds
The more I've played AWBW the more I've come to the conclusion that Battle Copters are one of the worst design decisions in the game. You have a unit that dominates all but 1-2 ground units that doesn't compete with your ground units for production, and that half of it's supposed counters don't work against, and of the other half one of them is dependant on terrain accommodating it and another is ITSELF. This leaves the Battle Copter with only 1 fully consistent counter in the Fighter, a unit that costs over twice as much which is also just shot down just as easily by Anti-air.
Mangs brother I'm sure you get this all the time, but you really are a light in the darkness. Thank you.
*Plays Ride of the Valkyries
You forgot to mention that they can search for subs. Presumably they dip a sonar buoy into the water
The gigabrain map creation move to have exactly 9000 funds per turn
I have no doubt they will probably even out every CO in the game in the reboot......hopefully
Do the anti-tank unit from DoR
Don't forget they can attack battle and transport copters
I'm here for sensei's theme song with mangs voice as background sound.
*dances to the music*