I know many folks disagree with my "recommendations" and "suggestions" because they feel confident and/or believe their RV is capable enough to perform the task they are asking. My suggestions are to limit/mitigate the chances that damage to your RV could occure. It's totally up to you as the RVer to use your RV the way you choose to. The same goes for pickups. That said, if you do plan on double towing OR you have been doing it for years and years, just take this message for what it is, a caution to do it safely and within the practical limits of the RV and Truck. Also, know if there are laws that limit the length of what you can tow. Cheers! Flame on!
@Big Truck Big RV We fairly recently bought a 5th wheeler, and the previous owner has installed an airconditioner/heating split system on it. The motor section of it is attached to the rear wall and bracing back to the accessory bar, but it seems to be slowly pulling the bottom/center of the rear wall away from the floor leaving a gap that is noticeable from the inside. Is any way I could send you photos or video of what I am trying to explain here? I hope that you might be able to make any changes to fix and properly support this and hopefully keep the system on the 5ver. I am a builder by trade, so I am more than capable of making any changes suggested to me. And I would also be happy to record the process and allow you to post the conversion for your channel if you choose to. Thank you very much from across the (very big) pond, in Australia 🙂
When you post a video exclaiming "DON'T DO THIS!" in giant, bold letters with an exclamation point; you're not 'suggesting' dude-You bossing people around and acting like a know-it-all!! QUIT IT. IT'S NOT COOL MAN!!
I've towed my 3,000 lb boat which is 24 ft overall in length behind both of my 30 ft 5th wheel all over the Midwest for the past 15 years+ without ANY issues. Have 40 years of experience driving various semi combinations plus pickups with large bumper and 5th wheels all across the central 20 states of the US. I feel very comfortable doing this and have never had to repair my camper in any way. Probably travel 10k miles a year doing this.
Well Keith, apparently you are a never seen before unicorn. I’ve seen a lot of you unicorns on the road but apparently you are completely crazy and off your rocker. I’ll stay off the highways moving forward in case your frame breaks.
@@stephenbarabas6286 I don’t disagree or agree. I know people that pull a trailer with a trailer and have for years and if that’s what they want to do, so be it. I know what JD is trying to say here. My response was just satire.
i have been towing double safely for 25 years. i respect you knowing your capabilities and skill levels. however i believe others are fully capable of doing this safely. thanks hope your feeling better and fully recovered.
I honestly am not telling people what they should or shouldn't do. Just providing some information to help them make an informed decision. Thanks my friend
If there is one thing I learned from reading the comments is you could argue the sky is blue, giving the scientific explanation behind it and there would be a bunch that disagree with you. I am just appreciative of the viewpoints and engineering discussion which allows us to learn.
There is flexing between the RV hitch and the wheels too. A 300 pound hitch weight trailer isn't going to introduce much more flex than a 300 pound receiver mounted accessory rack, fully loaded. There are also forces created by stopping and starting, but those are lateral. You also mentioned toy haulers. Toys also add weight to the back of the RV, causing flexure. In the case of a toy hauler, it can be much more than the hitch weight of a small trailer. So no matter what you get flexure. The more important questions are whether the additional trailer is too heavy for the RV, whether the overall length is within legal limits, how much additional flexure you are willing to live with given the expected life of the RV, whether braking is required on the second trailer, and the tow capacity of the tow vehicle, which may now be exceeded (you have to count the full weight of the additional trailer).
I hear what your saying. On the toy hauler part though please keep in mind they are built to haul which is why most are heavier or come with three axles.
I had over 40 years experience driving Heavy equipment class A Professional Driver. I respect everybody's opinions. Remember Safety first. My personal opinión Big Truck Big R V I agree with you 100 percent, Thank you for your honest advice you deserve one millón subcrivers. According with my expirience everything you mentioned is right. I don't recommend pulling with a fifwheel . Thank you for your Honesty Dignity and respect.
Thanks for introducing the structural impact on the unit as well, great point. Some have commented on towing double with no issues. I did not read all of the comments but for those that posted the length of their lead trailer, it appears for the most part their trailer was somewhere around thirty feet and probably without slides everywhere.
As someone that has had a major frame flex / failure issue due to piss poor frame material and construction, I 100% agree with you the dynamic load stresses will transfer to the weakest point of the structure, however, Lippert / RV manufacturers are allowing for 300lbs rear tongue weight. While having a 2nd trailer (within specifications) does in fact inject more stress on frame and structure, as long as the frame and structure has been designed for this extra load, it should be Ok if RV is within loads specs. My issue is Lippert is building frames that can't even handle RV's without any 2nd trailer towing. Rather than say no to 2nd trailer towing, why not address the elephant in the room - very poorly designed frames! You addressed this before, by showing the cross sectional examples and the huge difference in i beam sizes being used on large 5th wheels trailer frames. The root issue is not double towing as much as it is very poorly designed frames being used to begin with.
This is an excellent subject you've brought to our attention. Please excuse my long-winded comment. Can I please ask you for an episode whereby you invite an RV structural engineer from your favorite RV manufacturer to explain the design between the chassis (or what you refer to as the frame) and the RV's superstructure...or the body (side walls/roof). I'd love to hear from the engineers how they've designed the chassis and body of their RVs. Not just for double towing, but for general design intent. Consumers really need to know these very specific design requirements.......not to mention it'd be good marketing for the manufacturers. Here's why I ask. If a structural engineer designs a home or commercial building "foundation" (or RV frame in your case), he takes into account all the loads of the building's walls and roof, including any mulit-story floors, side walls, shear walls, lateral loads from wind, torsional loads, and differential movement throughout the entirety of the structure.....with the intent for the foundation (frame) to carry it all. An RV isn't much different but has some dynamic/movement loads from being towed over the road....which in a building may be similar to an earthquake. In your video, it appears you're referring to the RVs as have a unibody design, whereby the side walls and roof are designed to provide stability in the RV's chassis or frame. This would be similar to some of the automobiles where they called them unibodies. Suspiciously, it's hard for me to grasp this would be the design the RV industry would adopt. Given the weight/size of the units, there seems to be too much of a risk for structural failure in a unibody design concept. Please know I'm not calling you out or disagreeing with you in your opinion double-pulling may not be a great idea for both general and safety intent, but adding the possibility of doing so may overload the unit's rear frame (foundation) and suspension resulting in dangerous fishtailing and/or stopping issues and/or structural failure. I'm considering adding a trailer hitch to pull a small trailer with my golf car or my jet ski on its trailer. I have a Heartland toy hauler but use my garage for an office, and for short trips it would be easier to pull the trailer with my golf car/jet ski. In doing so, I'm figuring I need to reinforce the frame and suspension to improve its overall stability and safety...... I wouldn't consider a long-haul trip.....only short trips within 75 miles or so. So, back on subject, with your relationship with manufacturers and being an influencer in the RV community, I'd (maybe the community) would like to know the engineering behind RV chassis and their housing bearing on the chassis so we can be knowledgeable consumers. Which eventually boils down to which RV manufacturer we may want to purchase from. Thank you so much for your most excellent channel. I thoroughly enjoy it and love being schooled in RV'ing. Regards, Brad M., Frisco Texas
J.D. I'm on the side that if the engineer at the factory says it is capable, it is. Not sure of your background, if it includes mechanical engineer and you have gone through all the specifications of the trailer and could prove the factory wrong I'm sure they would listen. I think it would be much better if you said that YOU wouldn't pull a trailer behind your fifth wheel, rather than say no one should. Sounds a little preachy from someone with no facts to back them up.
I could imagine a person wanting to tow a 12’ or 14’ aluminum fishing boat, maybe with a 25 hp motor. If I’m going to a campground or lake, I would want to fish. I would hope that manufacturers would have thought about all of those considerations about flex before adding the hitch, or they would be responsible for any issues since they have a payload and tow capacity. The bigger issue is can your haul vehicle pull that extra weight? The other is knowing the laws in each state regarding total length for the double tow. And last is the drivers ability to handle towing the double trailer. The last one would be my biggest concern, because now you are putting others at risk. Thanks for the video. I don’t have a 5th wheel yet, but hopefully someday. I find you videos helpful, and I love the tours. I am also interested in your 1/2 ton GMC reviews. I have a 2014 RAM that I am hoping to upgrade, and I was going to go to a 3/4 ton, or 1 ton but that small diesel is interesting.
You're just making stuff up. If the MFR puts a tow rated hitch on an RV, then the frame and structure has been designed and engineered as a complete system to withstand the load. By your logic, you shouldn't load anything in a toyhauler.
Look I understand what you're completely. I drive semis for a living whether it be a tanker a double a triple or a huge crane so I understand what you meaning by flexing of the frame but like the last comment that was just made by your logic you can't even put something in your toy hauler in the back because of the flex... What you're saying does not make sense when it's rated it a certain amount. I believe you're just overthinking it just like my wife would
JD's advice is always sound. Most people shouldn't do this. I'm probably one of the more crazy ones. I have an F-450 (4.3 gearing, larger brakes), a 30' fifth wheel and I flat tow a newer 4 door jeep wrangler behind the trailer. Previous owner significantly reinforced front frame and pin box (forest river frame WILL eventually crack), goose neck converted it, and added a 5,000lb receiver on the back. The jeep has a vacuum assisted brake controller installed plus trailer brakes and large tow vehicle brakes. Stopping is not an issue at all. Plenty of power. No downward hitch weight since it's flat tow. Trailer is old so I don't care about my side walls. Cameras on the back of the trailer to see everything. Everything is within GCVWR. Yes, it's over length. Pay a few bucks for an oversize permit and magically it's all legal.
Does the same thing not apply to your carrier? Put 300# + and the resulting bouncing down the road would be the same. The bigger problem I have seen from experience is people forget the second trailer is back there when passing. Some campers are shown in there brochure with a boat back there and are designed for it.
I absolutely could. Rating of the tray (or hitch) doesn't mean you should load it up to the max. Plus static weight transfers energy differently than dynamic weight.
@@BigTruckBigRV A 300# load on a carrier that extends 2 1/2 to 3 ft behind the bumper would be worse than a 300 # hitch less than a foot from the bumper. If you can not turn a bolt with a 12 in wrench than you use a 3 ft breaker bar and turn it the same applies to this situation. And both are subject to the same bouncing going down the road but the carrier would amplify the same force. I have seen more carriers from bike to generators dragging down the road than hitch failure.
I would think there would be more jarring from the weight of a cargo carrier loaded up to 300 pounds than there would be from a trailer that has its own suspension absorbing some of the blow. I would imagine that the trailer connection would vibrate a little more but a lower severity and the cargo carrier would be a little more stable but bounce much more on certain larger instances.
Double towing doesn’t seem too popular where I am from in the Midwest but on our travels out west through Wyoming and Montana etc we saw a lot of fifth wheels pulling boats. They didn’t look like newbies.
Can confirm. Montanan here. We double tow all the time and the DOT pays zero attention to us. If I pull my boat behind my trailer I’m about 75’ long. 😂
Been double towing for years, but I only do 60 to 65 mph and stay within 150 miles from home. I've done it with 2 different trucks and travel trailers. What is the email to send viewers rigs?
We had a professional welding shop fabricate a platform on the back of our fifth wheel camper to haul my 700lb motorcycle from Michigan to California and back and only had to have it repaired/rewelded once! And I would do it again because because I constantly inspected it throughout the duration of the trip.
I miss the days when rvs were built to handle anything. I remember my old 87 fifth wheel had more cargo carrying capacity than the weight of the trailer. It could’ve ridden on 1 axle but they put in 2. Built like a tank. Heavy like one too but at least they lasted
Hauling double trailers with a semi is, at best difficult...the only person I've ever known who could backup a set of doubles was my Uncle...who started driving truck in the mid 30's. I can't do it, I've seen many professional drivers who wouldn't even try. My Dad towed his 14 foot aluminum boat behind his 21 foot fifthwheel, just up to the lake campground...he hated doing it because he couldn't see the boat behind the fifthwheel. All that being said, people do this successfully all the time.
You haven't convinced me that 300lbs tongue weight is different than 300lbs rack weight in any significant way. And a rack with 300lbs is cantelevered. I can accept that there may be issues with sway in some rigs....
Didn't say actually load rating was the same as loaded weight. I would never load the rack up to 300lbs. Plus, dynamic weight is far different than static weight
You definitely raise some very valid points. But how is adding a boat trailer with a 250lbs tounge weight any different than you adding that rack on the back end capable of supporting 300lbs?
Interesting topic and I as well have mixed feelings on this. I wouldn’t do it on my grand design simply cause I would exceed length laws but been looking at new Brinkley and asked them about it. The engineer claims it’s not problem and voids no warranty etc…. For me just a small trailer with golf cart
And if you don't see the cracks in the sidewalls of the trailer, the out riggers that are welded to the main frame rails extending out to the side walls to carry them will break due to the different flexing of the frame verses the side walls. The tab that goes to the top flange of the frame rail on the outriggers will break and the mid section of the frame will bow upwards pushing the floor up inside the trail while the walls stay straight. I had this happen due to a bike rack alone on the back of one of my early RV's. I had to support the frame, jack up the walls in the mid sections and weld and reinforce the outrigger tabs to the frame to get the frames rails straight again and back in line with the floor. My bike rack was heavy and that leverage at the rear was severe as you mention. To this day I cringe at anything mounted at the back of any RV regardless of the set up. Especially when people attach to he rear bumper which is gauge material. Even spare tires that are mounted to the bumper tube. One RV I had that came with the spare on a post mounted to the bumper from the factory cracked the bumper tube and had to be repaired and reinforced. It's a good thing I'm a fabricator because some of these repairs would've been in the thousands. I've seen and read about the frames cracking on fifth wheels as well in the neck going up to go over the box from towing too much weight behind the trailer as well because it tries to stretch out the riser portion of the frame from tugging extra weight.
When Lippert or any frame manufacturer designs a frame for an RV mfg’s specific floor plan, it has to be road tested and certified for the load rating and towing capacity. What am I missing?
If these RV manufacturers were not confident in their units ability to tow the rated hitch rating, they would not even put these hitches on at the factory and they surely would void your warranty if you went against that. Your argument has some merit if the tow rating is exceeded but within that manufacturers specified rating your 'recommendation" here is nothing more than more 'tow police' advice like you like to give about how you need a dually to pull a pop-up. (Yes that last bit was intended sarcasm)
Friends of ours have 40+ years of unsafe towing experience. From pulling a 33 foot prowler behind a jimmy to his recent rig, a 29 foot zinger conventional travel trailer with a homemade hitch on the rear bumper pulling a trailer with an aluminum 15foot fishing boat. This is behind a half ton Sierra(Scary). He thinks he’s safe because it’s legal length overall and because he has flags on either side of the boat trailer because he can’t see the actual boat or trailer in his mirrors! He told me as long as he can see one flag he knows he’s good.🤦🏼 I replied, what do you do when you see both flags? He has no idea the wet noodle of a rig he has.
In the class 8 industry, drivers need a special license to pull doubles and triples. As now just a regular drivers license. I've never had the idea of pulling something behind my RV. Like you was saying, the RV isn't designed like the class 8 industry. To me, its never crossed my mind. Although I've seen people doing it. Have a little boat or something. Personally I'd never do that. If the CDL holders need a special addition to their license. It doesn't make it acceptable for non CDL license holders to do that with our personal vehicles. But I'm just a old big truck driver for 20 years. 🤷♂️
You make a very valid point. Many in the comments have indicated that they do it all the time with no problems. Kudos to them. However, WHAT IF they hit that pothole just right and it causes a problem? Would the years of trouble-free double-towing be worth the risk? I like the fact that you point out the features of the RV's, but also point out safety as well. I learn a lot from your channel and love watching your videos. Keep up the good work!
If it's rated by the manufacturer to double tow then they have taken any and all flex considerations into account by design... just stay within ratings and it's a nonissue. I think you're a smart guy with good info usually but on this, I have to disagree. Weight in the back of a tow hauler would create the same flex on the boxed structure, in fact, it creates more since all the weight is in the rig...
I'd have to totally disagree. Yes, the RV "should" be built to take the additional stress HOWEVER most know that the frame, body, and suspension plus load characteristics are different on every RV. Many of the issues occur because folks only take into account 1 of 10 factors
i wouldn't double tow either but not just for the reason you discuss. my issue is the dynamics of the towed trailers. the hitch on the back of the fifthwheel is way behind the axles of the 5th wheel. tailswing of the 5th wheel is going push the 2nd trailer towbar the wrong direction during a turn or sway situation. so for example the truck and 5th wheel are turning left, the towbar for the 2nd trailer goes right! in a high speed sway situation, this would be disastrous. semi tractor trailers are entirely different, their axles are at the rear of the trailer and the tow vehicle(tractor) is carrying half the trailer weight. a second trailer transfers no weight to the first trailer in a set of doubles
i ran a fleet of tanker trucks out of slc ut--we were legal for 105 ft,129500lbs-- most of our units were semi with a pull pup behind--total up to 11 axles in a 500 mile radius of salt lake-you could say the same about flex on our trailers,we got cracks on our trailers,,we lost a few pull trailers over the years,over 20 million miles-we found that using air ride all around reduced structure wear and tear immensely -- the stats on crashes on rocky mtn doubles was way less than regular semis
And you had brakes on all your units. I towed doubles with a gross of 149,000 hauling fuel. I wouldn’t want to pull a second trailer with no brakes on it. I doubt many pulling a second trailer behind a RV trailer have brakes active on the second trailer.
JD, what are y'all's thoughts on the Freedom Hauler as an additional axle fastened to the hitch in two points? The RUclips videos show this behind motorhomes and travel trailers. I witnessed one attached to the back of a fifth wheel going through our town but couldn't get close enough to inspect it. The folks had a side by side on it and it appeared to have a steering axle with suspension. After Googling the company I was able to confirm that it does indeed have a suspended, self-steering axle. It doesn't seem like it would add or cause any additional stress to the RV but does add additional weight to the overall towing capacity of the tow vehicle.
I believe you are generally correct with your thoughts about the stabilizing rigid sides of a box structure, however I would counter that those sliders do break up that same structure and your argument therein.
Not true. The box structure includes the roof and any continuous portion of super structure. Openings in sidewalls can be issues if not designed properly. Almost like saying your garage door in a home would cause structural issues....but they are reinforced with a large header.
@@BigTruckBigRV @5:48, you mention that the sidewalls are making the structure rigid. Except here you are talking about it, while literally facing the slide out, that breaks the structure. Hence my comment.
@@BigTruckBigRV Then @7:15, you mention the effects of the flex concentrating to areas that have no opening. That is a) in contradiction to your aforementioned reinforcement, supposedly provided by the sidewalls and b) incorrect, because following your own argument, because if anything, the openings serve as release points, leaving less flex for the remaining boxed areas.
@@BigTruckBigRV Last but not least, in these type of 5th wheel trailers, there is strong flex acting on the structure between the goose neck and the wheels, that will vastly outnumber any bumper induced flex that may arrive from bumper-towing. After all, this sort of weight distribution is one of THE main design features of 5th wheel trailering. Also, let’s not forget that these trailers exist as toy-haulers as well, where the toys carried weigh several hundred pounds, in some cases several thousand.
The only thing I question that was said is explain what difference it makes on have a accessory rack with 250-300 pounds on it versus a hitch with 250-300 pounds of tongue weight. It is still at the same location and will cause the same amount of flex. Mind you I have never double towed and have no desire to, that is why I have a toyhauler. Mine is merely pointing out something that doesn't make sense.
I'm imagining some manner of substantial failure like those dually trucks with the slide-in campers. Rigs with a substantial amount of additional weight behind the camper. A camper that already has a few feet of overhang off the end of the truck.
While I have never come close to 3000lbs, I have driven a bit over 26000 miles towing a 4 wheeler or a pair of old jetskis. Never had an ounce of trouble. The furrion camera on the back of the rv allows me to see the trailer at all times. I would even argue that the trailer rides smoother with the jetskis. I might be able to agree with you not recommending it, but I do not agree with you saying absolutely don't do it. A single tech that you've found to agree with you're point of view does not make this a "law" for lack of a better term
Thanks for the info. Our Montana has a 3000 pound receiver and I was thinking of getting a light motorcycle trailer to haul my 800 pound Harley from time to time. Only a 37 foot rig with about 30 behind the truck. Mainly for short trips to rallies, etc. so I was estimating I could keep my tongue weight less than 200 pounds and total weight would be less than 1000. Do you still feel this could potentially damage our rig? And what are your thoughts on those Swivel wheel trailers? Thanks for your help.
If you stay within the rating of the receiver on the back of your RV, you should be fine. His point about stress is nonsense. An aluminum, solid axle trailer for your bike is the best option.
Ok so a 200 lb. weight from a trailer is no good but 200 lb from an accessory rack is ok. An accessory rack is going be to actually bounce more than a trailer that has its own axle, now do I agree that double towing probably shouldn’t be done with fifth wheels, yes I agree. As far as stress is concerned both are bad if the weight is the same (say 200lb) either way the less weight you have back there the better.
Here in California, you must have a CDL with a "T" code...which is "Doubles/Triples to legally tow double trailer...I know this because of a one on one encounter with a very serious CHP Officer.
I can think of at least 5 things off the top of my head I do frequently that would instantly be either a misdemeanor or felony in California: Double tow. Drive a tuned but NOT deleted diesel. Gun stuff. Drive 80mph legally. Plastic bags/straws. Buy a 64oz soda. Use a gas stove. Ok a few of those are a joke but won't be soon. As they say, get out of California (but don't come here)!
How to double towing if you have to be aware of weight capacity and beware of curve roads and different routes crossing damp matt I would like to have a rv to probably live in for a Start but I don't have any money right now plus I'm only 20 and plus I don't have drivers license to yet or insurance.on rv yet or anything and I like the double dome better because their a switch on them to do by half or full and I would get led light bulbs for brighter.
Wonder if a four-wheel wagon type trailer would be better who knows anyway how many feet the trailer is you would have to go take that off the fifth wheel or you will be over length and some states require a special license to tow a combination like that. Great video learned a lot from you have a great day be safe
If placing 250 pounds on the back over the trailer can cause damage, then shouldn't it also follow that you shouldn't place the same weight on an accessory rack on the back? It should result in the same amount of stresses.
By the way you have described the flex. Putting 300# of firewood on your rack would be just as bad as towing a 2000# aluminum boat that has a 200# tongue weight. I see this as just because it can does not mean you should. My current 5th wheel has the receiver with the flat 4 connector. I considered flat towing a car that was within the weight limit. I then did the research. My state does not allow towing double for non-commercial vehicles. Doing further research the trailer gross weight + the car + my truck would be over my truck's max combined weight. So that is a big nope to me towing anything back there.
Actually static weight and dynamic weight are two different things entirely. That said, I wouldn't ever suggest loading a rack on the back to the 300lb rating.
Hey JD hope you're having a great day? I would have to agree with you! There are people that will say that they have towed behind there fifth wheel or travel trailer for years with no damage,but they can't see inside of the walls or the slides. If I'm going to spend that kind of money on want it to last!!!! Thank you JD for all the different information that you bring us!!! Your number one fan Leonard from NC.!!!!
I would think that changing lanes, merging or making any turns would be much more difficult and unsafe. I understand that many people double tow and if they’re comfortable with doing that then good for them. As for structural integrity of the RV, I’d say if it’s rated to tow then you’d hope the manufacturer would have designed it to withstand those forces. I personally wouldn’t trust that, but everyone has to make their own decisions based on what their own experience is.
This is all sorts of things I have never considered. I see people on the road pulling some crazy double setups and I just don’t see the point. I have been driving semi for 10 years and would not want to pull a double setup. I’d rather over build my truck to carry whatever toys I want
I don’t think it should be legal to pull anything with a 5th wheel. While traveling to a youth group retreat with 3 vehicles, I was in my truck with a utility trailer, the kids were in the church van behind me, and one additional car behind them. Suddenly a 5th wheel coming at us pulling a boat had the boat break free just as we were passing them going the opposite direction. Thank the Lord it went off on the opposite side into some trees. If it had come into on coming traffic, it would have taken all 3 of our vehicles out given the 55 miles per hours we were going. And the driver didn’t know they lost the boat! Just don’t do it people. Save a life.
@@Itsa_Mea yep. Safety chains are a must. Sadly it only takes one time, careless or unknowingly, doing something incorrect to potentially end another’s life. I’m thankful most people are not in that category.
Rvs have holding tanks not septic tanks. If you talk with the rv holding tank specialist’s all you require is a softener and pinesol in the tank. You don’t want things breaking down in the tank
You are projecting your opinion as Fact. You should say this entire video is your opinion. That is why you always say “In my opinion” when you say you don’t recommend towing behind your RV in your reviews of RVs.
I cannot imagine the rv mfg putting a tow hitch on if it would cause structural issues. But, I would hope the person pulling duals knows that adding a 3k trailer adds to your total tow weight.
I personally don't understand how people feel safe having a second trailer that far behind the tow rig that is generally going to be significantly narrower than the first trailer. Can you even see it in your mirrors? And if you somehow can, are you really able to accurately judge where it is in relation to the traffic around you? This honestly sounds like something that anyone with the driving experience and skills to do safely would not want to do- unless we're talking like up in Wyoming where it's mostly open, empty highways.
Towing is one thing but hanging a rack off the back is probably worse if it's being used improperly. If you're towing a couple thousand pounds with a few hundred pounds of tongue weight, you'll probably never have an issue. Pulling your 24' ski boat on the other hand is asking for trouble on many different levels. What I see too much of is a receiver rack with a motor cycle 5 bicycles, a BBQ, 2 propane tanks and all the yard furniture. All tolled well over 500 lbs. This is clearly exceeding the limit of the receiver and probably the rack. Tongue weight is one thing but cantilevered dead weight is far worse on the frame of the travel trailer, not to mention how it effects the overall handling of the entire rig.
first Thank You for saying “double tow” so many call it wrong as triple tow. i see a lot of people driving just there car. who should not be driving even that. most should not double tow. but some rv’s can pull weight behind them. but then i have a special hitch set up. i have 40 years as a commercial truck driver. decades pulling two trailers. in very bad weather and bed conditions. so at least i have the knowledge and skills required.. 99% out there do not. including many class A truck drivers. but most pu trucks do not have the weight ratings to even pull the rv let alone a second trailer. forget brakes.
u put300lbs on ur back rack is that not the same? +i believe people show b made 2 take a course before u do that on how 2 tow and back up a double unit
Honestly this all depends on the quality of the RV. That Brookstone in the video is not built the best. DRV and New Horizons are more than capable to double tow
It's really not up to me to make sure rv manufacturers are telling me the truth about the numbers. If they say you can towe 3,000 pounds it should. It's up to the manufacturers to do real road testing on their fithwheel. If it can not perform adequate, the hitch should not be on the fithwheel.
Question. Would it be ok to do one of those 2" square tube bolt on deals on a rv bumper with the stiffing brackets to use a 4 bicycle rack on the back of a travel trailer? We have a 2021 forest river salem fsx 179.
Don't do it. We did exactly this and had it fail (bent the bumper and bikes were leaning towards the road). The wall thickness of those bumpers will lead to the bumper tearing at the frame or at the hitch or bending. Cut it off and use a thicker square tube and have it welded properly to the frame and you'll be golden or add a variable width RV hitch.
By the way, off topic, but I'd like to know how those Firestone Transforce tires are holding up on your F450 because I'm looking to buy as set of 6-19.5's for the new truck that I've ordered to use as my summer tires on my Ram 3500.
For me, it comes down to this. Can you tow another trailer behind your trailer? Yes, of course (if it's rated for it). Is it worth the risks (and there ARE risks)? No, absolutely not. The only time I'd ever do it is to move something a few miles down a side road. PERIOD. In all my years over the road and delivering RVs, I've seen it many times. And EVERY time it was way more than 3,000 trailer, more like a 5,000lb boat, or tandem axle cargo trailer, or a double vehicle trailer with a couple quads on it. Foolish, reckless, and irresponsible. Get a friend to tow that extra trailer, or go make a second trip. Your convenience isn't worth risking a life.
I watch a lot of your content and it is mostly spot on but your missing one big point here if I am to accept your position. ANYTHING in the 2” receiver could add the same 300# to that hitch. The Lippert storage box you mention included. A rack with 3 or 4 bikes hanging on it… use your imagination on the possibilities. The lateral force of pulling the trailer means little going down the highway (corners or uneven terrain might add something) but 300” is a very heavy tongue. I have pulled a small 5 x 10 utility trailer with a golf cart loaded on it, among other things thousands of miles with zero issues. (3295 Montana). I think my 150# tongue weight is a lot easier on the frame than any add on storage rack that could easily be overloaded would be. Curious if you considered this in your synopsis? Keep up the good work!
I don't disagree. The lower the tongue weight the less dynamic energy the RV frame mist deal with. I would never go anywhere near 300lbs on my rack. 120lbs at most.
from what i understand, towing doubles of anykind no matter how small is only legal in two states without a cdl and the hassles that go with having one.
People are passionate about their beliefs and practices for sure. As long as they are safe and within reasonable limits they probably won't have an issue...
Great opening to your video. We used those orange tablets when we rented the class A coach two years ago. Curious how they compare to Matt's product. You always stress not towing a trailer behind the 5th wheel trailer. There are some states that is illegal because of the total length of the combined units. Great video again and hopefully people listen about double towing.
Your view of this is weak. You are more likely to have control issues with second trailer "sway" , being only 4 pin means no brakes on second trailer means less control of it. The second trailer would be slower to react movement of tow vehicle it would be magnified by the time it does.this why most states don't have triples.
You're NOT a trailer frame fabricator and are completely speculating! Most people will probably use the receiver to carry a 2 or 4 bike carrier which can create the same OR EVEN WORSE type of flex and dynamic energy!!! At least in towing doubles there's an additional axle on the trailer that absorbs and reduces that dynamic energy! Do a video on not hooking up a bike carrier that could be dangerous!! If you've never double towed, lay off telling people not to do it unless you have real world experience!!
I know many folks disagree with my "recommendations" and "suggestions" because they feel confident and/or believe their RV is capable enough to perform the task they are asking. My suggestions are to limit/mitigate the chances that damage to your RV could occure. It's totally up to you as the RVer to use your RV the way you choose to. The same goes for pickups. That said, if you do plan on double towing OR you have been doing it for years and years, just take this message for what it is, a caution to do it safely and within the practical limits of the RV and Truck. Also, know if there are laws that limit the length of what you can tow. Cheers! Flame on!
@Big Truck Big RV
We fairly recently bought a 5th wheeler, and the previous owner has installed an airconditioner/heating split system on it. The motor section of it is attached to the rear wall and bracing back to the accessory bar, but it seems to be slowly pulling the bottom/center of the rear wall away from the floor leaving a gap that is noticeable from the inside. Is any way I could send you photos or video of what I am trying to explain here? I hope that you might be able to make any changes to fix and properly support this and hopefully keep the system on the 5ver.
I am a builder by trade, so I am more than capable of making any changes suggested to me. And I would also be happy to record the process and allow you to post the conversion for your channel if you choose to.
Thank you very much from across the (very big) pond, in Australia 🙂
When you post a video exclaiming "DON'T DO THIS!" in giant, bold letters with an exclamation point; you're not 'suggesting' dude-You bossing people around and acting like a know-it-all!! QUIT IT. IT'S NOT COOL MAN!!
@@Xthree8892
LOL
I've towed my 3,000 lb boat which is 24 ft overall in length behind both of my 30 ft 5th wheel all over the Midwest for the past 15 years+ without ANY issues. Have 40 years of experience driving various semi combinations plus pickups with large bumper and 5th wheels all across the central 20 states of the US. I feel very comfortable doing this and have never had to repair my camper in any way. Probably travel 10k miles a year doing this.
Well Keith, apparently you are a never seen before unicorn. I’ve seen a lot of you unicorns on the road but apparently you are completely crazy and off your rocker. I’ll stay off the highways moving forward in case your frame breaks.
@@DavidBrown-jt7yi did he disagree with you and hurt your feelings?
Or is "JD " the only person you believe/ trust?
@@stephenbarabas6286 I don’t disagree or agree. I know people that pull a trailer with a trailer and have for years and if that’s what they want to do, so be it. I know what JD is trying to say here. My response was just satire.
That took less time than I expect. 🤣
Thank you. Do you have issues going through states that do not allow double towing? Or you allowed to pass through.
Ive double towed for years with absolutely no problems and so do many people I know.
i have been towing double safely for 25 years. i respect you knowing your capabilities and skill levels. however i believe others are fully capable of doing this safely. thanks hope your feeling better and fully recovered.
I honestly am not telling people what they should or shouldn't do. Just providing some information to help them make an informed decision. Thanks my friend
If there is one thing I learned from reading the comments is you could argue the sky is blue, giving the scientific explanation behind it and there would be a bunch that disagree with you. I am just appreciative of the viewpoints and engineering discussion which allows us to learn.
There is flexing between the RV hitch and the wheels too. A 300 pound hitch weight trailer isn't going to introduce much more flex than a 300 pound receiver mounted accessory rack, fully loaded. There are also forces created by stopping and starting, but those are lateral. You also mentioned toy haulers. Toys also add weight to the back of the RV, causing flexure. In the case of a toy hauler, it can be much more than the hitch weight of a small trailer. So no matter what you get flexure. The more important questions are whether the additional trailer is too heavy for the RV, whether the overall length is within legal limits, how much additional flexure you are willing to live with given the expected life of the RV, whether braking is required on the second trailer, and the tow capacity of the tow vehicle, which may now be exceeded (you have to count the full weight of the additional trailer).
I hear what your saying. On the toy hauler part though please keep in mind they are built to haul which is why most are heavier or come with three axles.
I had over 40 years experience driving Heavy equipment class A Professional Driver. I respect everybody's opinions. Remember Safety first. My personal opinión Big Truck Big R V I agree with you 100 percent, Thank you for your honest advice you deserve one millón subcrivers. According with my expirience everything you mentioned is right. I don't recommend pulling with a fifwheel . Thank you for your Honesty Dignity and respect.
Thanks for introducing the structural impact on the unit as well, great point. Some have commented on towing double with no issues. I did not read all of the comments but for those that posted the length of their lead trailer, it appears for the most part their trailer was somewhere around thirty feet and probably without slides everywhere.
As someone that has had a major frame flex / failure issue due to piss poor frame material and construction, I 100% agree with you the dynamic load stresses will transfer to the weakest point of the structure, however, Lippert / RV manufacturers are allowing for 300lbs rear tongue weight. While having a 2nd trailer (within specifications) does in fact inject more stress on frame and structure, as long as the frame and structure has been designed for this extra load, it should be Ok if RV is within loads specs. My issue is Lippert is building frames that can't even handle RV's without any 2nd trailer towing. Rather than say no to 2nd trailer towing, why not address the elephant in the room - very poorly designed frames! You addressed this before, by showing the cross sectional examples and the huge difference in i beam sizes being used on large 5th wheels trailer frames. The root issue is not double towing as much as it is very poorly designed frames being used to begin with.
@@Itsa_Mea Ditto,same issue on my Montana 5th wheel. Shame on Lippert and Keystone for using paper thin frame metal.
I think you are right, if the frame and structure are built correctly then it should not be an issue.
Why would the manufacture put a hitch and a light plug on the fifth wheel if it is not able to handle the extra stress?
Ask folks who have had frame issues
@@BigTruckBigRV The last time I made a comment about frames not being strong enough and failing you told me I was wrong ?
Exactly!
This is an excellent subject you've brought to our attention. Please excuse my long-winded comment.
Can I please ask you for an episode whereby you invite an RV structural engineer from your favorite RV manufacturer to explain the design between the chassis (or what you refer to as the frame) and the RV's superstructure...or the body (side walls/roof). I'd love to hear from the engineers how they've designed the chassis and body of their RVs. Not just for double towing, but for general design intent. Consumers really need to know these very specific design requirements.......not to mention it'd be good marketing for the manufacturers.
Here's why I ask. If a structural engineer designs a home or commercial building "foundation" (or RV frame in your case), he takes into account all the loads of the building's walls and roof, including any mulit-story floors, side walls, shear walls, lateral loads from wind, torsional loads, and differential movement throughout the entirety of the structure.....with the intent for the foundation (frame) to carry it all. An RV isn't much different but has some dynamic/movement loads from being towed over the road....which in a building may be similar to an earthquake.
In your video, it appears you're referring to the RVs as have a unibody design, whereby the side walls and roof are designed to provide stability in the RV's chassis or frame. This would be similar to some of the automobiles where they called them unibodies. Suspiciously, it's hard for me to grasp this would be the design the RV industry would adopt. Given the weight/size of the units, there seems to be too much of a risk for structural failure in a unibody design concept.
Please know I'm not calling you out or disagreeing with you in your opinion double-pulling may not be a great idea for both general and safety intent, but adding the possibility of doing so may overload the unit's rear frame (foundation) and suspension resulting in dangerous fishtailing and/or stopping issues and/or structural failure.
I'm considering adding a trailer hitch to pull a small trailer with my golf car or my jet ski on its trailer. I have a Heartland toy hauler but use my garage for an office, and for short trips it would be easier to pull the trailer with my golf car/jet ski. In doing so, I'm figuring I need to reinforce the frame and suspension to improve its overall stability and safety...... I wouldn't consider a long-haul trip.....only short trips within 75 miles or so.
So, back on subject, with your relationship with manufacturers and being an influencer in the RV community, I'd (maybe the community) would like to know the engineering behind RV chassis and their housing bearing on the chassis so we can be knowledgeable consumers. Which eventually boils down to which RV manufacturer we may want to purchase from.
Thank you so much for your most excellent channel. I thoroughly enjoy it and love being schooled in RV'ing.
Regards,
Brad M., Frisco Texas
J.D. I'm on the side that if the engineer at the factory says it is capable, it is. Not sure of your background, if it includes mechanical engineer and you have gone through all the specifications of the trailer and could prove the factory wrong I'm sure they would listen. I think it would be much better if you said that YOU wouldn't pull a trailer behind your fifth wheel, rather than say no one should. Sounds a little preachy from someone with no facts to back them up.
You may be right 👍
I could imagine a person wanting to tow a 12’ or 14’ aluminum fishing boat, maybe with a 25 hp motor. If I’m going to a campground or lake, I would want to fish. I would hope that manufacturers would have thought about all of those considerations about flex before adding the hitch, or they would be responsible for any issues since they have a payload and tow capacity. The bigger issue is can your haul vehicle pull that extra weight? The other is knowing the laws in each state regarding total length for the double tow. And last is the drivers ability to handle towing the double trailer. The last one would be my biggest concern, because now you are putting others at risk.
Thanks for the video. I don’t have a 5th wheel yet, but hopefully someday. I find you videos helpful, and I love the tours. I am also interested in your 1/2 ton GMC reviews. I have a 2014 RAM that I am hoping to upgrade, and I was going to go to a 3/4 ton, or 1 ton but that small diesel is interesting.
You're just making stuff up. If the MFR puts a tow rated hitch on an RV, then the frame and structure has been designed and engineered as a complete system to withstand the load. By your logic, you shouldn't load anything in a toyhauler.
I got my info directly from an LCI frame tech. Who sold gets called out to quote a few overloaded and damaged toy haulers
@@BigTruckBigRV Overloaded yes, we are talking within specifications.
Thank you for the content. I would think that double towing would make it difficult to drive and maneuver in traffic.
By your logic you should be towing at 120 mph, after all the speedo goes that high and the mfgr designed and engineered it that way.
You have completely ignored the suspension systems.
We get tons of questions about double towing. And we try to discourage it. Thanks for taking advantage of this 'Teaching Moment'...
Look I understand what you're completely. I drive semis for a living whether it be a tanker a double a triple or a huge crane so I understand what you meaning by flexing of the frame but like the last comment that was just made by your logic you can't even put something in your toy hauler in the back because of the flex... What you're saying does not make sense when it's rated it a certain amount. I believe you're just overthinking it just like my wife would
JD's advice is always sound. Most people shouldn't do this. I'm probably one of the more crazy ones. I have an F-450 (4.3 gearing, larger brakes), a 30' fifth wheel and I flat tow a newer 4 door jeep wrangler behind the trailer. Previous owner significantly reinforced front frame and pin box (forest river frame WILL eventually crack), goose neck converted it, and added a 5,000lb receiver on the back. The jeep has a vacuum assisted brake controller installed plus trailer brakes and large tow vehicle brakes. Stopping is not an issue at all. Plenty of power. No downward hitch weight since it's flat tow. Trailer is old so I don't care about my side walls. Cameras on the back of the trailer to see everything. Everything is within GCVWR. Yes, it's over length. Pay a few bucks for an oversize permit and magically it's all legal.
It’s a good thing BTBRV wasn’t raised on a farm. He’d never get anything done while worrying about capacities and replacing good parts with “upgrades”
What "good parts" have I replaced?
Does the same thing not apply to your carrier? Put 300# + and the resulting bouncing down the road would be the same. The bigger problem I have seen from experience is people forget the second trailer is back there when passing. Some campers are shown in there brochure with a boat back there and are designed for it.
I absolutely could. Rating of the tray (or hitch) doesn't mean you should load it up to the max. Plus static weight transfers energy differently than dynamic weight.
@@BigTruckBigRV A 300# load on a carrier that extends 2 1/2 to 3 ft behind the bumper would be worse than a 300 # hitch less than a foot from the bumper. If you can not turn a bolt with a 12 in wrench than you use a 3 ft breaker bar and turn it the same applies to this situation. And both are subject to the same bouncing going down the road but the carrier would amplify the same force. I have seen more carriers from bike to generators dragging down the road than hitch failure.
I would think there would be more jarring from the weight of a cargo carrier loaded up to 300 pounds than there would be from a trailer that has its own suspension absorbing some of the blow. I would imagine that the trailer connection would vibrate a little more but a lower severity and the cargo carrier would be a little more stable but bounce much more on certain larger instances.
Double towing doesn’t seem too popular where I am from in the Midwest but on our travels out west through Wyoming and Montana etc we saw a lot of fifth wheels pulling boats. They didn’t look like newbies.
Can confirm. Montanan here. We double tow all the time and the DOT pays zero attention to us. If I pull my boat behind my trailer I’m about 75’ long. 😂
Been double towing for years, but I only do 60 to 65 mph and stay within 150 miles from home. I've done it with 2 different trucks and travel trailers. What is the email to send viewers rigs?
I'm glad you're finally doing a video on this instead of a couple seconds dismissive attitude on the subject without going into details
Ived talked in depth about this is several videos. Just not each review video. ruclips.net/video/o-9d-wlsZ3w/видео.html
We had a professional welding shop fabricate a platform on the back of our fifth wheel camper to haul my 700lb motorcycle from Michigan to California and back and only had to have it repaired/rewelded once! And I would do it again because because I constantly inspected it throughout the duration of the trip.
I miss the days when rvs were built to handle anything. I remember my old 87 fifth wheel had more cargo carrying capacity than the weight of the trailer. It could’ve ridden on 1 axle but they put in 2. Built like a tank. Heavy like one too but at least they lasted
Also if ever look at a semi pulling doubles there is a dolly under that ball or turning point to support that weight
Hauling double trailers with a semi is, at best difficult...the only person I've ever known who could backup a set of doubles was my Uncle...who started driving truck in the mid 30's. I can't do it, I've seen many professional drivers who wouldn't even try. My Dad towed his 14 foot aluminum boat behind his 21 foot fifthwheel, just up to the lake campground...he hated doing it because he couldn't see the boat behind the fifthwheel. All that being said, people do this successfully all the time.
That's where a backup cam can help.
You haven't convinced me that 300lbs tongue weight is different than 300lbs rack weight in any significant way. And a rack with 300lbs is cantelevered. I can accept that there may be issues with sway in some rigs....
Didn't say actually load rating was the same as loaded weight. I would never load the rack up to 300lbs. Plus, dynamic weight is far different than static weight
You definitely raise some very valid points. But how is adding a boat trailer with a 250lbs tounge weight any different than you adding that rack on the back end capable of supporting 300lbs?
What about a light weight trailer like an aluminum fishing boat? Our boat tongue weight is close to the weight of two e-bikes.
Interesting topic and I as well have mixed feelings on this. I wouldn’t do it on my grand design simply cause I would exceed length laws but been looking at new Brinkley and asked them about it. The engineer claims it’s not problem and voids no warranty etc…. For me just a small trailer with golf cart
Ha! Got mine last week. We’re winterized but will be getting fired up before you know it!
ANY TIME YOU TOW, as you, properly state, you must ALWAYS ensure that the vehicle towing has adequate capacity to do so.
Great video JD! You definitely got all kind of comments. We are not going to pull doubles but to each their own.
And if you don't see the cracks in the sidewalls of the trailer, the out riggers that are welded to the main frame rails extending out to the side walls to carry them will break due to the different flexing of the frame verses the side walls. The tab that goes to the top flange of the frame rail on the outriggers will break and the mid section of the frame will bow upwards pushing the floor up inside the trail while the walls stay straight. I had this happen due to a bike rack alone on the back of one of my early RV's. I had to support the frame, jack up the walls in the mid sections and weld and reinforce the outrigger tabs to the frame to get the frames rails straight again and back in line with the floor. My bike rack was heavy and that leverage at the rear was severe as you mention. To this day I cringe at anything mounted at the back of any RV regardless of the set up. Especially when people attach to he rear bumper which is gauge material. Even spare tires that are mounted to the bumper tube. One RV I had that came with the spare on a post mounted to the bumper from the factory cracked the bumper tube and had to be repaired and reinforced. It's a good thing I'm a fabricator because some of these repairs would've been in the thousands.
I've seen and read about the frames cracking on fifth wheels as well in the neck going up to go over the box from towing too much weight behind the trailer as well because it tries to stretch out the riser portion of the frame from tugging extra weight.
All the comments saying it’s the same as a b-train semi, it’s not at all.
I quadruple tow all the time😂jk i do tow a 2000 lb boat and have for years gonna keep doing, yall better watch out here i come!
When Lippert or any frame manufacturer designs a frame for an RV mfg’s specific floor plan, it has to be road tested and certified for the load rating and towing capacity.
What am I missing?
Not so much
@@BigTruckBigRV as long as someone doesn’t overload the weight certifications, where’s the safety issues? I’ve never double towed, but I’m curious.
What’s your thoughts on this? Swivelwheel Dual Wheel RV Fifth Wheel Carrier - 8' W x 5' L
If these RV manufacturers were not confident in their units ability to tow the rated hitch rating, they would not even put these hitches on at the factory and they surely would void your warranty if you went against that. Your argument has some merit if the tow rating is exceeded but within that manufacturers specified rating your 'recommendation" here is nothing more than more 'tow police' advice like you like to give about how you need a dually to pull a pop-up. (Yes that last bit was intended sarcasm)
Friends of ours have 40+ years of unsafe towing experience. From pulling a 33 foot prowler behind a jimmy to his recent rig, a 29 foot zinger conventional travel trailer with a homemade hitch on the rear bumper pulling a trailer with an aluminum 15foot fishing boat. This is behind a half ton Sierra(Scary). He thinks he’s safe because it’s legal length overall and because he has flags on either side of the boat trailer because he can’t see the actual boat or trailer in his mirrors! He told me as long as he can see one flag he knows he’s good.🤦🏼 I replied, what do you do when you see both flags? He has no idea the wet noodle of a rig he has.
In the class 8 industry, drivers need a special license to pull doubles and triples. As now just a regular drivers license. I've never had the idea of pulling something behind my RV. Like you was saying, the RV isn't designed like the class 8 industry. To me, its never crossed my mind. Although I've seen people doing it. Have a little boat or something. Personally I'd never do that. If the CDL holders need a special addition to their license. It doesn't make it acceptable for non CDL license holders to do that with our personal vehicles. But I'm just a old big truck driver for 20 years. 🤷♂️
In Michigan you do need an endorsement on your license for it to be legal. Most call it a "recreational double."
You make a very valid point. Many in the comments have indicated that they do it all the time with no problems. Kudos to them. However, WHAT IF they hit that pothole just right and it causes a problem? Would the years of trouble-free double-towing be worth the risk? I like the fact that you point out the features of the RV's, but also point out safety as well. I learn a lot from your channel and love watching your videos. Keep up the good work!
If it's rated by the manufacturer to double tow then they have taken any and all flex considerations into account by design... just stay within ratings and it's a nonissue. I think you're a smart guy with good info usually but on this, I have to disagree. Weight in the back of a tow hauler would create the same flex on the boxed structure, in fact, it creates more since all the weight is in the rig...
I'd have to totally disagree. Yes, the RV "should" be built to take the additional stress HOWEVER most know that the frame, body, and suspension plus load characteristics are different on every RV. Many of the issues occur because folks only take into account 1 of 10 factors
Weight in a toy hauler is generally directly over the axles.
@@manoli.k YES, my 38’ toy hauler is built with the axles under the garage area.
What if you triple tow? Then you pretty much have a train and can hook up a caboose in the rear 😅
Haven’t seen a caboose in years.
i wouldn't double tow either but not just for the reason you discuss.
my issue is the dynamics of the towed trailers. the hitch on the back of the fifthwheel is way behind the axles of the 5th wheel. tailswing of the 5th wheel is going push the 2nd trailer towbar the wrong direction during a turn or sway situation. so for example the truck and 5th wheel are turning left, the towbar for the 2nd trailer goes right! in a high speed sway situation, this would be disastrous. semi tractor trailers are entirely different, their axles are at the rear of the trailer and the tow vehicle(tractor) is carrying half the trailer weight. a second trailer transfers no weight to the first trailer in a set of doubles
i ran a fleet of tanker trucks out of slc ut--we were legal for 105 ft,129500lbs-- most of our units were semi with a pull pup behind--total up to 11 axles in a 500 mile radius of salt lake-you could say the same about flex on our trailers,we got cracks on our trailers,,we lost a few pull trailers over the years,over 20 million miles-we found that using air ride all around reduced structure wear and tear immensely -- the stats on crashes on rocky mtn doubles was way less than regular semis
And you had brakes on all your units. I towed doubles with a gross of 149,000 hauling fuel. I wouldn’t want to pull a second trailer with no brakes on it. I doubt many pulling a second trailer behind a RV trailer have brakes active on the second trailer.
JD, what are y'all's thoughts on the Freedom Hauler as an additional axle fastened to the hitch in two points? The RUclips videos show this behind motorhomes and travel trailers. I witnessed one attached to the back of a fifth wheel going through our town but couldn't get close enough to inspect it. The folks had a side by side on it and it appeared to have a steering axle with suspension. After Googling the company I was able to confirm that it does indeed have a suspended, self-steering axle. It doesn't seem like it would add or cause any additional stress to the RV but does add additional weight to the overall towing capacity of the tow vehicle.
I believe you are generally correct with your thoughts about the stabilizing rigid sides of a box structure, however I would counter that those sliders do break up that same structure and your argument therein.
Not true. The box structure includes the roof and any continuous portion of super structure. Openings in sidewalls can be issues if not designed properly. Almost like saying your garage door in a home would cause structural issues....but they are reinforced with a large header.
@@BigTruckBigRV @5:48, you mention that the sidewalls are making the structure rigid. Except here you are talking about it, while literally facing the slide out, that breaks the structure. Hence my comment.
@@BigTruckBigRV Then @7:15, you mention the effects of the flex concentrating to areas that have no opening. That is a) in contradiction to your aforementioned reinforcement, supposedly provided by the sidewalls and b) incorrect, because following your own argument, because if anything, the openings serve as release points, leaving less flex for the remaining boxed areas.
@@BigTruckBigRV Last but not least, in these type of 5th wheel trailers, there is strong flex acting on the structure between the goose neck and the wheels, that will vastly outnumber any bumper induced flex that may arrive from bumper-towing. After all, this sort of weight distribution is one of THE main design features of 5th wheel trailering. Also, let’s not forget that these trailers exist as toy-haulers as well, where the toys carried weigh several hundred pounds, in some cases several thousand.
@@BigTruckBigRV In Summary, flex here has to be (and have been) kept minimal by the design, otherwise the hull would not last.
The only thing I question that was said is explain what difference it makes on have a accessory rack with 250-300 pounds on it versus a hitch with 250-300 pounds of tongue weight. It is still at the same location and will cause the same amount of flex. Mind you I have never double towed and have no desire to, that is why I have a toyhauler. Mine is merely pointing out something that doesn't make sense.
I'm imagining some manner of substantial failure like those dually trucks with the slide-in campers. Rigs with a substantial amount of additional weight behind the camper. A camper that already has a few feet of overhang off the end of the truck.
How fast does that chemical break down waste? Faster than I need to pull the handle on the valve to dump?
So I understand what you are saying, are there rvs that are rated to tow light weight trailer...
While I have never come close to 3000lbs, I have driven a bit over 26000 miles towing a 4 wheeler or a pair of old jetskis. Never had an ounce of trouble. The furrion camera on the back of the rv allows me to see the trailer at all times. I would even argue that the trailer rides smoother with the jetskis. I might be able to agree with you not recommending it, but I do not agree with you saying absolutely don't do it. A single tech that you've found to agree with you're point of view does not make this a "law" for lack of a better term
Love your informative videos
I tow a light mirrorcraft 14' boat. You can't even tell it's there. If you tow 2500 lbs...what the heck? You already have a kitchen sink! Lol
Thanks for the info. Our Montana has a 3000 pound receiver and I was thinking of getting a light motorcycle trailer to haul my 800 pound Harley from time to time. Only a 37 foot rig with about 30 behind the truck. Mainly for short trips to rallies, etc. so I was estimating I could keep my tongue weight less than 200 pounds and total weight would be less than 1000. Do you still feel this could potentially damage our rig? And what are your thoughts on those Swivel wheel trailers? Thanks for your help.
If you stay within the rating of the receiver on the back of your RV, you should be fine. His point about stress is nonsense. An aluminum, solid axle trailer for your bike is the best option.
Ok so a 200 lb. weight from a trailer is no good but 200 lb from an accessory rack is ok. An accessory rack is going be to actually bounce more than a trailer that has its own axle, now do I agree that double towing probably shouldn’t be done with fifth wheels, yes I agree. As far as stress is concerned both are bad if the weight is the same (say 200lb) either way the less weight you have back there the better.
What about rear acessory hitch racks with a mostly static load within the specified weight limits?
I feel similar. I wouldn't load my 300lb rated rack with more than 120lbs. Even though it's static vs dynamic. I always error on safety
Here in California, you must have a CDL with a "T" code...which is "Doubles/Triples to legally tow double trailer...I know this because of a one on one encounter with a very serious CHP Officer.
Even RV's which are exempt from the CDL rules because they are person use item not for hire.
I can think of at least 5 things off the top of my head I do frequently that would instantly be either a misdemeanor or felony in California: Double tow. Drive a tuned but NOT deleted diesel. Gun stuff. Drive 80mph legally. Plastic bags/straws. Buy a 64oz soda. Use a gas stove. Ok a few of those are a joke but won't be soon. As they say, get out of California (but don't come here)!
Everything is illegal in California. It’s sad.
How to double towing if you have to be aware of weight capacity and beware of curve roads and different routes crossing damp matt I would like to have a rv to probably live in for a Start but I don't have any money right now plus I'm only 20 and plus I don't have drivers license to yet or insurance.on rv yet or anything and I like the double dome better because their a switch on them to do by half or full and I would get led light bulbs for brighter.
Wonder if a four-wheel wagon type trailer would be better who knows anyway how many feet the trailer is you would have to go take that off the fifth wheel or you will be over length and some states require a special license to tow a combination like that. Great video learned a lot from you have a great day be safe
I don't think after watching so may "big truck" videos that JD has ever towed anything other than a RV.
Lol. Assuming Big Truck means Class 8 truck. I know to some truckers that's all it means.
If placing 250 pounds on the back over the trailer can cause damage, then shouldn't it also follow that you shouldn't place the same weight on an accessory rack on the back? It should result in the same amount of stresses.
So according to this info you really shouldn’t tow behind a class A or class C motor home either right?
If you add another axle at the back...eg a lift axle...would that negate most of this issue?
By the way you have described the flex. Putting 300# of firewood on your rack would be just as bad as towing a 2000# aluminum boat that has a 200# tongue weight. I see this as just because it can does not mean you should. My current 5th wheel has the receiver with the flat 4 connector. I considered flat towing a car that was within the weight limit. I then did the research. My state does not allow towing double for non-commercial vehicles. Doing further research the trailer gross weight + the car + my truck would be over my truck's max combined weight. So that is a big nope to me towing anything back there.
Actually static weight and dynamic weight are two different things entirely. That said, I wouldn't ever suggest loading a rack on the back to the 300lb rating.
Hey JD hope you're having a great day? I would have to agree with you! There are people that will say that they have towed behind there fifth wheel or travel trailer for years with no damage,but they can't see inside of the walls or the slides. If I'm going to spend that kind of money on want it to last!!!! Thank you JD for all the different information that you bring us!!! Your number one fan Leonard from NC.!!!!
I would think that changing lanes, merging or making any turns would be much more difficult and unsafe. I understand that many people double tow and if they’re comfortable with doing that then good for them. As for structural integrity of the RV, I’d say if it’s rated to tow then you’d hope the manufacturer would have designed it to withstand those forces. I personally wouldn’t trust that, but everyone has to make their own decisions based on what their own experience is.
This is all sorts of things I have never considered. I see people on the road pulling some crazy double setups and I just don’t see the point. I have been driving semi for 10 years and would not want to pull a double setup. I’d rather over build my truck to carry whatever toys I want
I don’t think it should be legal to pull anything with a 5th wheel.
While traveling to a youth group retreat with 3 vehicles, I was in my truck with a utility trailer, the kids were in the church van behind me, and one additional car behind them. Suddenly a 5th wheel coming at us pulling a boat had the boat break free just as we were passing them going the opposite direction.
Thank the Lord it went off on the opposite side into some trees. If it had come into on coming traffic, it would have taken all 3 of our vehicles out given the 55 miles per hours we were going. And the driver didn’t know they lost the boat!
Just don’t do it people. Save a life.
@@Itsa_Mea yep. Safety chains are a must. Sadly it only takes one time, careless or unknowingly, doing something incorrect to potentially end another’s life. I’m thankful most people are not in that category.
Rvs have holding tanks not septic tanks. If you talk with the rv holding tank specialist’s all you require is a softener and pinesol in the tank. You don’t want things breaking down in the tank
😅😂🤣🤣🤣 Been doing it for years. Wayyyyy better than a pos toy hauler
You are projecting your opinion as Fact. You should say this entire video is your opinion.
That is why you always say “In my opinion” when you say you don’t recommend towing behind your RV in your reviews of RVs.
If you watch the video, I clearly project that this is my opinion and my recommendation.
I cannot imagine the rv mfg putting a tow hitch on if it would cause structural issues. But, I would hope the person pulling duals knows that adding a 3k trailer adds to your total tow weight.
I personally don't understand how people feel safe having a second trailer that far behind the tow rig that is generally going to be significantly narrower than the first trailer. Can you even see it in your mirrors? And if you somehow can, are you really able to accurately judge where it is in relation to the traffic around you? This honestly sounds like something that anyone with the driving experience and skills to do safely would not want to do- unless we're talking like up in Wyoming where it's mostly open, empty highways.
Backup camera on our camper turned on all the time allows us to see exactly what the second trailer is doing.
How much weight do you put in your bumper cargo basket?
Max around 120lbs. 2 ebikes.
Towing is one thing but hanging a rack off the back is probably worse if it's being used improperly. If you're towing a couple thousand pounds with a few hundred pounds of tongue weight, you'll probably never have an issue. Pulling your 24' ski boat on the other hand is asking for trouble on many different levels. What I see too much of is a receiver rack with a motor cycle 5 bicycles, a BBQ, 2 propane tanks and all the yard furniture. All tolled well over 500 lbs. This is clearly exceeding the limit of the receiver and probably the rack. Tongue weight is one thing but cantilevered dead weight is far worse on the frame of the travel trailer, not to mention how it effects the overall handling of the entire rig.
I’ve seen rvers towing jeeps behind fifth wheels
first Thank You for saying “double tow” so many call it wrong as triple tow.
i see a lot of people driving just there car. who should not be driving even that.
most should not double tow. but some rv’s can pull weight behind them. but then i have a special hitch set up.
i have 40 years as a commercial truck driver. decades pulling two trailers. in very bad weather and bed conditions. so at least i have the knowledge and skills required.. 99% out there do not. including many class A truck drivers.
but most pu trucks do not have the weight ratings to even pull the rv let alone a second trailer.
forget brakes.
u put300lbs on ur back rack is that not the same? +i believe people show b made 2 take a course before u do that on how 2 tow and back up a double unit
Honestly this all depends on the quality of the RV. That Brookstone in the video is not built the best. DRV and New Horizons are more than capable to double tow
Couldn't you say the same thing with the luggage rack you have mounted to the back of your camper?
What about motor homes with 3 slides capable of towing up to 15,000 pounds ?
Compare frames and structure..you'll see
It's really not up to me to make sure rv manufacturers are telling me the truth about the numbers. If they say you can towe 3,000 pounds it should. It's up to the manufacturers to do real road testing on their fithwheel. If it can not perform adequate, the hitch should not be on the fithwheel.
Do u know how to drive a manual?
Question. Would it be ok to do one of those 2" square tube bolt on deals on a rv bumper with the stiffing brackets to use a 4 bicycle rack on the back of a travel trailer? We have a 2021 forest river salem fsx 179.
Don't do it. We did exactly this and had it fail (bent the bumper and bikes were leaning towards the road). The wall thickness of those bumpers will lead to the bumper tearing at the frame or at the hitch or bending. Cut it off and use a thicker square tube and have it welded properly to the frame and you'll be golden or add a variable width RV hitch.
By the way, off topic, but I'd like to know how those Firestone Transforce tires are holding up on your F450 because I'm looking to buy as set of 6-19.5's for the new truck that I've ordered to use as my summer tires on my Ram 3500.
Mine have been doing fantastic so far.
I agree with the last 2 comments. I tow behind my tow rated 5th wheel all the time, boat or trailer with 4 wheeler.
For me, it comes down to this.
Can you tow another trailer behind your trailer? Yes, of course (if it's rated for it).
Is it worth the risks (and there ARE risks)? No, absolutely not.
The only time I'd ever do it is to move something a few miles down a side road. PERIOD. In all my years over the road and delivering RVs, I've seen it many times. And EVERY time it was way more than 3,000 trailer, more like a 5,000lb boat, or tandem axle cargo trailer, or a double vehicle trailer with a couple quads on it. Foolish, reckless, and irresponsible.
Get a friend to tow that extra trailer, or go make a second trip. Your convenience isn't worth risking a life.
Have you checked out kleen tech for cleaning your black and grey tanks
My theory if someone wants to double tow, if it’s legal, go for it. Just keep me out of the debris field.
I watch a lot of your content and it is mostly spot on but your missing one big point here if I am to accept your position. ANYTHING in the 2” receiver could add the same 300# to that hitch. The Lippert storage box you mention included. A rack with 3 or 4 bikes hanging on it… use your imagination on the possibilities. The lateral force of pulling the trailer means little going down the highway (corners or uneven terrain might add something) but 300” is a very heavy tongue.
I have pulled a small 5 x 10 utility trailer with a golf cart loaded on it, among other things thousands of miles with zero issues. (3295 Montana). I think my 150# tongue weight is a lot easier on the frame than any add on storage rack that could easily be overloaded would be.
Curious if you considered this in your synopsis?
Keep up the good work!
I don't disagree. The lower the tongue weight the less dynamic energy the RV frame mist deal with. I would never go anywhere near 300lbs on my rack. 120lbs at most.
Double towing is not for me. In Canada I don't think it's allowed anyhow.
from what i understand, towing doubles of anykind no matter how small is only legal in two states without a cdl and the hassles that go with having one.
The comments will show how people are real fast.
People are passionate about their beliefs and practices for sure. As long as they are safe and within reasonable limits they probably won't have an issue...
@@BigTruckBigRV unfortunately I’ve seen some horrendous accidents because people “thought” they knew what they were doing.
Great opening to your video. We used those orange tablets when we rented the class A coach two years ago. Curious how they compare to Matt's product.
You always stress not towing a trailer behind the 5th wheel trailer. There are some states that is illegal because of the total length of the combined units. Great video again and hopefully people listen about double towing.
Your view of this is weak. You are more likely to have control issues with second trailer "sway" , being only 4 pin means no brakes on second trailer means less control of it. The second trailer would be slower to react movement of tow vehicle it would be magnified by the time it does.this why most states don't have triples.
Many boat trailers have surge brakes. Balance of a second trailer would be key
Great video. Very informative.
You're NOT a trailer frame fabricator and are completely speculating! Most people will probably use the receiver to carry a 2 or 4 bike carrier which can create the same OR EVEN WORSE type of flex and dynamic energy!!! At least in towing doubles there's an additional axle on the trailer that absorbs and reduces that dynamic energy! Do a video on not hooking up a bike carrier that could be dangerous!! If you've never double towed, lay off telling people not to do it unless you have real world experience!!
You obviously haven't see my content on frames as well as working with a LCI Frame Tech AND even speaking with their head engineer.
How about flat towing a Jeep with little to no young weight
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