Sir, Good to see you back. You are correct about the French Fourragere with the 5th and 6th Marine Regiments. I was able to wear it when I was with 2/5 but had to take it off when I transferred. Keep up the great work.
i know the 1st infantry division was authorized to wear both the french and belgian croix de guerre Fourrageres during ww2, i believe for its actions on d-day. but i dont know about after ww2.
Thanks for taking the time to speak about french awards and insignia. From 9:05 to 9:29, and except for the parachute badge (brevet de parachutiste militaire) on the top left and the medaillion on the top right at 9:22 (we call it a "Médaille" too - this one is upside down by the way), these are regiment insignia (every regiment or unit have an insignia and it's mandatory to wear it on the right upper pocket when in uniform).
Sir, you are incorrect on the French Commando Badge. I graduated from the school in 1975 with other members of my Platoon. We were serving with the 1/509th Airborne stationed in Italy. The multi-month course was undertaken at the French Army base located at Strasbourg, with training in both Germany and France. I have US orders for the award authorizing its wear, and it is duly annotated on by DD-214 as are my Germany Parachutist badge in Bronze as well as my Honduran Parachutist badge.
Although the regulations allow for the wearing of only one foreign award. It was quite common to wear foreign wings over the pocket and a Commando Badge or a Recondo badge on the actual pocket. I did and still do where it that way as then General Davidson the SHAFE Commander told us to. I have numerous DA photos with that set up. It worked. I made CW5. Additionally, 2Lt. Petraus was a Platoon Leader in our Company. Rangers Lead The Way!@@veteransmedalsworkshop-moa4376
Well said! I graduated from the French Commando school, Givet France, in 1986 as a medic while stationed in Germany with the 78th Engr Bn, 7th Engr Bde. I have the orders and DD-214 annotation.
A couple of possible corrections/modificaitons that you might want to look into 1. The law creating the WWI and WWII Croix de Gerre limited its award to French territory; however, there is a third Croix de Guerre. Croix de guerre des théâtres d'opérations extérieurs (War Cross for foreign operational theatres). US personnel were awarded this medal in Korea, and there was a news report I read of a US officer receiving the award somewhat recently for actions in the Afghanistan. A copy of the medal is on the bottom left of the display board you are holding at the end. 2. The French Commando Badge has been an authorized award on the Army uniform for the entire time I have been associated with the Army (since the mid 80). The authorization can currently be found in Appendix D of AF 600-8-22 on page 182. 3. Fouragerre. The Fouragerre was authorized for multiple awards of the CdG (IIRC it was two). A 1974 Department of the Army memo has since restricted the display of all foreign unit awards to 1, which prevents any future instances of the award such as the fouragerre.
Regarding #3- 2 points A) yes indeed, the French Fourragère is for 2 (or more) CdG unit awards. The colors depends on the number and specific timing of the awardings. American sources usually just refer to the WW1 & WW2 versions since almost all, (but not all - i.e. 18th Infantry), American units that wear it have just one of those 2. B) are you sure that memo isn’t referring specifically, and only, to foreign “Badges”. I suspect the memo you are referring to is what got incorporated as ch. 22§18.a. of both AR 670-1 & DA PAM 670-1. (Though exceptionally the German marksmanship BADGE, aka the Schützenschnur, is apparently not considered a “badge” by the U.S., thus it is allowed in addition to the one foreign badge.) (Edited to fix the italics) (Edited again to remove italics since apparently italics doesn’t work anymore on YT)
thank you! I could not find the info on the commando badge and there seems to be a number of different variations. That is also news on the Korean War. Great feedback!
@@gregweatherup9596 I only came across a reference to the memo a couple of weeks ago when doing research on the fouragerre for the Vietnamese Cross of Galantry. At the end of the Vietnam War the President of RVN awarded every unit and person a unit VCG. It appears that this additional award would have automatically kicked in the authorization for a fouragerre for a large number of US units (i.e. 1CD, 1ID, 25th ID, 4th ID, 5th ID). This would have made the fouragerre a defacto part of the US Army uniform for most soldiers. So it looks like Big Army took steps to prevent that, while still permitted acceptance of the initial award.
@@veteransmedalsworkshop-moa4376 Each of the units/centres that conducts the commando training course has a slightly different badge which signifies the awarding unit. The badge on the left at 11:28 is from the 2nd Legion Parachute Regiment, while the one on the right is from national commando training center. While most of the commando badges are very similar having the circle, eagle, and sword, the two more specialized envrionmental course (desert in Djibouti and Jungle in French Guyanna) are very distinctive in character.
@@luddite4change449 regarding the RVN Fouragerre- that’s interesting. Looking into it, I see several people referring to memo “111030Z” from April 1974, which I assume is the memo you are referring to as well, however I’m not able to find the text of that (only links to a dead Institute of Heraldry page - putting that link into IA’s way back machine I was able to find that it also just repeats the statement- no text of the actual memo). Nothing at the D.A.P. website. Have you seen the actual memo, or just references to it? I suspect it was specific to just this one award, like how there are special rules for multiples of both the RVN civil actions award (wear only the highest device) and the Korean PUC (no devices), and I suspect that memo is what got incorporated into DA PAM 672-3 as section 6.a., but without being able to read the original memo that’s just an educated guess.
When i first began my military career I was assigned to a unit with the Belgian Fourragere with Palm but with was a unit award so when i left the unit i was no longer authorized to wear it. But I was in a unit who was awarded the Meritorious Unit Commendation (MUC) (Army) and since I was in that unit when the MUC was awarded I was able to wear that everywhere I went after that.
Textbook examples of the terms “Temporary wear” vs. “Permanent wear”. Though I didn’t think the Belgian fourragère was approved for temporary wear (unlike the French one - though I don’t know why one is allowed and the other isn’t 🤷♂️, but that goes all the way back to at least GO 23 from 1948 and confirmed in the compiled master listing in GO 43 from 1950).
@@gregweatherup9596 i was literally a mosquito winged private when i arrived at that (my first unit) so I didn’t ask any questions and the more shiny things for me the better.
@@piratesapper I’m finding lots of stories of people being ordered (incorrectly) to wear it. And I’m also finding stories of deliberately hazing (messing with the new guy transferring to a unit) and making people scramble to try to track down one to wear since after all “it’s listed on the unit’s ‘Lineage and honors’ record”. 🫨 😂
What is the “shape” behind the scorpion on the desert commando badge? At first I thought it was the outline of the country of Djibouti - where the training course takes place, but on closer look that’s not it.
@@veteransmedalsworkshop-moa4376 maybe it is meant to be Djibouti and it’s just some imprecise cartography compounded by some manufacturing limitations (ie the bit in the north near the “o” in zone is probably just due to having to attach it to the ring). In any event, another great video, thank you everyone at VMW!
A Cross pattee yes, specifically a straight armed one, but I don’t think many people, outside of Ukraine, would use nor know the term “Cossack Cross”. For example, in Sweden & Finland that specific subtype gets called a “St. George’s Cross” because the Swedish Freemasons got a royal grant of a “St. George’s Cross with Triangular arms” (utgörs av et kors med mot mitten avsmalnande armar) for an emblem/insignia and overtime folks there came to associate the base shape with St. George while the rest of the word associate a straight flat, and specifically red on white colors (like on the flags of England 🏴, Georgia 🇬🇪, Genoa, Sardinia etc. etc.), with being St George’s cross. The France-Phaleristique website has the text of the April 23rd, 1918 decree creating the Croix, and article 1 describing the physical medal just refers to it as “…à quatre branches…” (with 4 branches). 🤷♂️. It never seems to get anymore specific than that, unless perhaps we can find that the original manufacturers got more detailed instructions???
The 320th fa regt, 101st Abn div aaslt, ft Campbell ky, also wears the Fourragere
Sir,
Good to see you back. You are correct about the French Fourragere with the 5th and 6th Marine Regiments. I was able to wear it when I was with 2/5 but had to take it off when I transferred. Keep up the great work.
i know the 1st infantry division was authorized to wear both the french and belgian croix de guerre Fourrageres during ww2, i believe for its actions on d-day. but i dont know about after ww2.
Thanks for taking the time to speak about french awards and insignia.
From 9:05 to 9:29, and except for the parachute badge (brevet de parachutiste militaire) on the top left and the medaillion on the top right at 9:22 (we call it a "Médaille" too - this one is upside down by the way), these are regiment insignia (every regiment or unit have an insignia and it's mandatory to wear it on the right upper pocket when in uniform).
Nice to see a few members of my old unit 19th Infantry Division in your video.
Sir, you are incorrect on the French Commando Badge. I graduated from the school in 1975 with other members of my Platoon. We were serving with the 1/509th Airborne stationed in Italy. The multi-month course was undertaken at the French Army base located at Strasbourg, with training in both Germany and France. I have US orders for the award authorizing its wear, and it is duly annotated on by DD-214 as are my Germany Parachutist badge in Bronze as well as my Honduran Parachutist badge.
neat, I could not find anything on it. where did you wear it on the uniform? Airborne All the Way!
Although the regulations allow for the wearing of only one foreign award. It was quite common to wear foreign wings over the pocket and a Commando Badge or a Recondo badge on the actual pocket. I did and still do where it that way as then General Davidson the SHAFE Commander told us to. I have numerous DA photos with that set up. It worked. I made CW5. Additionally, 2Lt. Petraus was a Platoon Leader in our Company. Rangers Lead The Way!@@veteransmedalsworkshop-moa4376
Well said! I graduated from the French Commando school, Givet France, in 1986 as a medic while stationed in Germany with the 78th Engr Bn, 7th Engr Bde. I have the orders and DD-214 annotation.
A couple of possible corrections/modificaitons that you might want to look into
1. The law creating the WWI and WWII Croix de Gerre limited its award to French territory; however, there is a third Croix de Guerre. Croix de guerre des théâtres d'opérations extérieurs (War Cross for foreign operational theatres). US personnel were awarded this medal in Korea, and there was a news report I read of a US officer receiving the award somewhat recently for actions in the Afghanistan. A copy of the medal is on the bottom left of the display board you are holding at the end.
2. The French Commando Badge has been an authorized award on the Army uniform for the entire time I have been associated with the Army (since the mid 80). The authorization can currently be found in Appendix D of AF 600-8-22 on page 182.
3. Fouragerre. The Fouragerre was authorized for multiple awards of the CdG (IIRC it was two). A 1974 Department of the Army memo has since restricted the display of all foreign unit awards to 1, which prevents any future instances of the award such as the fouragerre.
Regarding #3- 2 points
A) yes indeed, the French Fourragère is for 2 (or more) CdG unit awards. The colors depends on the number and specific timing of the awardings. American sources usually just refer to the WW1 & WW2 versions since almost all, (but not all - i.e. 18th Infantry), American units that wear it have just one of those 2.
B) are you sure that memo isn’t referring specifically, and only, to foreign “Badges”. I suspect the memo you are referring to is what got incorporated as ch. 22§18.a. of both AR 670-1 & DA PAM 670-1.
(Though exceptionally the German marksmanship BADGE, aka the Schützenschnur, is apparently not considered a “badge” by the U.S., thus it is allowed in addition to the one foreign badge.)
(Edited to fix the italics)
(Edited again to remove italics since apparently italics doesn’t work anymore on YT)
thank you! I could not find the info on the commando badge and there seems to be a number of different variations. That is also news on the Korean War. Great feedback!
@@gregweatherup9596 I only came across a reference to the memo a couple of weeks ago when doing research on the fouragerre for the Vietnamese Cross of Galantry. At the end of the Vietnam War the President of RVN awarded every unit and person a unit VCG. It appears that this additional award would have automatically kicked in the authorization for a fouragerre for a large number of US units (i.e. 1CD, 1ID, 25th ID, 4th ID, 5th ID).
This would have made the fouragerre a defacto part of the US Army uniform for most soldiers. So it looks like Big Army took steps to prevent that, while still permitted acceptance of the initial award.
@@veteransmedalsworkshop-moa4376 Each of the units/centres that conducts the commando training course has a slightly different badge which signifies the awarding unit. The badge on the left at 11:28 is from the 2nd Legion Parachute Regiment, while the one on the right is from national commando training center.
While most of the commando badges are very similar having the circle, eagle, and sword, the two more specialized envrionmental course (desert in Djibouti and Jungle in French Guyanna) are very distinctive in character.
@@luddite4change449 regarding the RVN Fouragerre- that’s interesting. Looking into it, I see several people referring to memo “111030Z” from April 1974, which I assume is the memo you are referring to as well, however I’m not able to find the text of that (only links to a dead Institute of Heraldry page - putting that link into IA’s way back machine I was able to find that it also just repeats the statement- no text of the actual memo). Nothing at the D.A.P. website. Have you seen the actual memo, or just references to it? I suspect it was specific to just this one award, like how there are special rules for multiples of both the RVN civil actions award (wear only the highest device) and the Korean PUC (no devices), and I suspect that memo is what got incorporated into DA PAM 672-3 as section 6.a., but without being able to read the original memo that’s just an educated guess.
When i first began my military career I was assigned to a unit with the Belgian Fourragere with Palm but with was a unit award so when i left the unit i was no longer authorized to wear it.
But I was in a unit who was awarded the Meritorious Unit Commendation (MUC) (Army) and since I was in that unit when the MUC was awarded I was able to wear that everywhere I went after that.
Textbook examples of the terms “Temporary wear” vs. “Permanent wear”.
Though I didn’t think the Belgian fourragère was approved for temporary wear (unlike the French one - though I don’t know why one is allowed and the other isn’t 🤷♂️, but that goes all the way back to at least GO 23 from 1948 and confirmed in the compiled master listing in GO 43 from 1950).
@@gregweatherup9596 i was literally a mosquito winged private when i arrived at that (my first unit) so I didn’t ask any questions and the more shiny things for me the better.
@@piratesapper I’m finding lots of stories of people being ordered (incorrectly) to wear it. And I’m also finding stories of deliberately hazing (messing with the new guy transferring to a unit) and making people scramble to try to track down one to wear since after all “it’s listed on the unit’s ‘Lineage and honors’ record”. 🫨 😂
Happy New year Colonel
What is the “shape” behind the scorpion on the desert commando badge? At first I thought it was the outline of the country of Djibouti - where the training course takes place, but on closer look that’s not it.
ah, good question…Horn of Africa? I thought it was Djibouti also.
@@veteransmedalsworkshop-moa4376 maybe it is meant to be Djibouti and it’s just some imprecise cartography compounded by some manufacturing limitations (ie the bit in the north near the “o” in zone is probably just due to having to attach it to the ring).
In any event, another great video, thank you everyone at VMW!
As a former french military, I can confirm that is Djibouti. Not very well drawn, but that's it.
yes it is
Thank you for the confirmations!
At 3:49, you say it's a "square-cross medal" The correct term is Cossack cross, which is a type of Cross pattée.
A Cross pattee yes, specifically a straight armed one, but I don’t think many people, outside of Ukraine, would use nor know the term “Cossack Cross”. For example, in Sweden & Finland that specific subtype gets called a “St. George’s Cross” because the Swedish Freemasons got a royal grant of a “St. George’s Cross with Triangular arms” (utgörs av et kors med mot mitten avsmalnande armar) for an emblem/insignia and overtime folks there came to associate the base shape with St. George while the rest of the word associate a straight flat, and specifically red on white colors (like on the flags of England 🏴, Georgia 🇬🇪, Genoa, Sardinia etc. etc.), with being St George’s cross.
The France-Phaleristique website has the text of the April 23rd, 1918 decree creating the Croix, and article 1 describing the physical medal just refers to it as “…à quatre branches…” (with 4 branches). 🤷♂️. It never seems to get anymore specific than that, unless perhaps we can find that the original manufacturers got more detailed instructions???
Will you be doing a British one at all please?
Not soon. Want to do a series on US Military Medals starting with the Revolution.