The Most Speedrun Version of TOTK Was Never Released
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- Опубликовано: 15 фев 2024
- Tears of the Kingdom Released on May 12, 2023 to massive critical and financial success... But it's first major patch released one day earlier on May 11th. How are runners playing on 1.0 if it was patched before the game even released? Let's discuss!
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Video Sources: pastebin.com/nXcQDyZp 
Игры
I remember getting into the undertale speedrunning scene a while ago. I just couldn’t keep up with everyone because half the game is just text mashing and I have moderate carpal tunnel. I really wish more community’s would consider accessibility when setting their rules.
Thats so weird that undertale speedrunning wouldn't allow a turbo!!! There's not even a single instance I can think of it helping anything other than text mashing for that game, aside from MAYBE yellow soul? There should definitely be a fight for this somewhere...
@@quonit37problem is undertale speedruns are pretty much entirely reliant on button mashing and fast menuing. not dying is like, the bare minimum and once you're past that the only execution barrier is mashing quickly and menuing quickly. taking away the first one wouldn't even do much since the menuing speed required for certain glitches would still be inaccessible to most people that couldn't perform the button mashing
Thankfully in the latest Deltarune you can just hold C now (unfortunately this is because Toby Fox got some real grody tendinitis and had a very bad time)
It's always interesting to hear about the history of speedrunning in different communities. There's really so much to see and learn from, even in pretty niche spaces.
Also, a very clean AbsRad fight in there.
I remember when Narcissa had to retire from windwaker speedrunning because of the damage caused by the intense mashing during zombie hover segments. Absolutely a legit discussion.
Thank you for discussing the accessibility issues with controllers and button mashing! It's encouraging to hear, both as a speed noob and as someone whose hands give me issues (I can't play keyboard or joycon-exclusive games for very long, rip). Here's to hoping more people start talking positively about accessibility and reasonable accomodation in speedrunning ❤
(Side note: might try learning the new Peach game, looks fun)
In Ocarina of Time, there's actually a really weird technicality on whether or not 1.0 inject on VC should be allowed. In addition to there being tons of glitches that are version-exclusive (1.0 vs 1.2), there are also a handful of glitches that are hardware-exclusive (N64 vs Wii). If you were to put together a route that required both 1.0-exclusive glitches and Wii-exclusive glitches, that route wouldn't be possible on any "real" copy of OoT that ever existed.
I don't think that this distinction is relevant in any real speedrun categories, but it has come up a couple times for some really obscure TAS-only runs.
All very good points! But original hardware won't last forever. A compromise might be to have unique rulesets for specific versions on Wii VC or PC Emulator. Not allowing Deku Stick as adult on VC Inject would make sense, IMO, along with a few other details like chus out of bounds, etc.
I like the point of allowing high level competition to exist with beginner friendly rules. Also allowing turbo controllers is essential; that would make games way more fun to speedrun at a high level and if you want your times to be even lower, you can always button mash faster. This has been done in games ( pretty sure its Mega Man 2 ) where a speedrunner buttonmashed faster then turbo controllers to get a lower time.
The talk about Sonic Adventure reminds me of Final Fantasy X. I watched it at GDQ, and they were using a patch that removed all of the cutscenes. I can't remember if they said that that was the standard, or if they were just doing it so that it was possible to showcase the game in a marathon setting, but I think it was the former? I wanna say that they said it cut out like, 10 hour of cutscenes or something like that. If that's the case, that honestly makes sense to me - I imagine that runners find the game much more fun than if they had to sit through all those hours of cutscenes, and I can't imagine what it would be like to spend basically your entire waking day on one speedrun (not that there aren't games or categories where that happens, but y'know)
i think dead rising speedruns do something similar. a lot of the actual gameplay in that series is futzing around doing sidequests and killing time until the next story mission, but modders do something to the game that just forces it to skip from one story mission to the next
Speedrunning is an entire world I am not privy too, but any day I learn a little bit more about an unexpectedly vast, complex, in-depth hobby is a good one. Lotta respect for people who delve into the depths (heh) of this stuff to work all of it out!
Skipping the intro isn’t an unprecedented decision. It’s been done in other games, namely Mario Sunshine.
True! I meant more for Zelda games, but Mario Sunshine also has an interesting history involving its intro skip! Couldn't get to every topic in this video unfortunately.
@@SimplySnaps my granmas a major gamer and pre-order 1 for me 1 for her and 2 for other family on 1.0 so i had a physical 1 and when i got a new switfh i was able to have 1.0 and ive had fun glitching it
I Illegally enjoyed this video
It's actually legal to enjoy this video if you already own a copy, right?
on the topic of breaking traditions, I firmly believe that emulations should be allowed in most speedruns, not all mind you, there are some games that have issues being emulated, but TOTK emulates flawlessly with either ryujinx or yuzu, if runners want to use digital 1.0 then its much more accessible to allow emulation as many people just cant mod their switch, both the switch OLED and lite require soldering to be modded, and quite precise soldering at that, and there is only a limited amount of easily moddable switches out there, emulation strikes a perfect middle ground between accessibility and running on the best version, truthfully its up to the community to discuss, there are downsides to allowing emulation, PCs can load the game much faster then real hardware and run the game better as well, but at the same time its a much more accessible way to speedrun the game on digital 1.0, tracking down a moddable switch or one already modded is a pain (I speak from experience)
1 big, monstrous downside of emulation I wont just ignore is that it could REALLY piss off Nintendo, that is a real threat and if that was the reason it wasn't allowed I wouldn't argue against it at all
now thats just in the context of TOTK, if we look at other games, ESPECIALLY older ones then the argument for emulation is even stronger, OOT or Mario64 could benefit greatly if emulation was allowed, were getting to a point where WIIs are dying, someone getting into OOT speedrunning could buy a WII and only after a couple runs have it die because they bought it off of someone who treated it horribly, I personally think that if older game speedruns are to stay around, emulation must be allowed as real hardware gets harder and harder to come by every day
Agreed! The N64 was 10 years old when the Wii Released. The Wii turns 18 this year. We really need to start having these conversations, and soon. Wii VC isn't the hip, new way to play OOT anymore. It's almost twice as old as OOT was when it first came out. "Homeboy Steven" (the creator of Wii VC) made an exceptional emulator, but I think OOT runners should probably make a fork of PJ64 or Mupen that optimizes the emulation for OOT speedrunning specifically, just like Melee players forked Dolphin for competitive Melee.
I'm so glad Whats Therapy shouted this video out, interrupting himself mid-sentence, several hours into a stream
I think allowing turbo in runs for the purpose of removing long and repetitive mashing segments is a generally good thing for accessibilty, but it's important to have a nuanced view of what it means to "allow Turbo". What exactly is turbo? To me, it is defined to be an infinitely-cycling macro that, once per cycle, actuates and deactuates a single standard controller button for a certain duration and repeats these cycles at a regular interval.
The problem is, though, that this by itself legalizes techniques that can remove significant skill-based techniques from runs. Say a technique requires one to press a button, then press that same button a certain number of frames afterwards. This is exactly the same thing as a turbo macro that presses that button on a cycle of that length being active for two cycles. The problem comes with the fact that most definitions for "what turbo is" allow for these extremely long and precise intervals, at least in theory, and the speedgame that I help moderate, Final Fantasy VII, has at least three difficult tricks that could, with the right setup, be trivialized in this manner (if not for the inherent inconsistency of disc load times getting in the way, which wouldn't be a factor with the emulators we allow). Even reasonable-speed turbo can be abused in this manner, as the regularity of button presses can result in trivializing otherwise-difficult techniques which remove significant skill-expressive tricks (ruclips.net/video/vlmXkrahjpE/видео.html for an example).
For the absolute extreme end of this technique, one could imagine setting up thousands or millions of concurrent "turbo" macros that each have a particular delay before pressing a single button input, and then are manually disbled sometime after they perform just one input, and then starting all of them at the same time as the game. This... is exactly equivalent to replaying arbitrary sequences of inputs, which is exactly what a tool-assisted speedrun is, all with "turbo". It's clear that this isn't what is intended by allowing turbo, but it is nontheless something that would be allowed by blanket-allowing it. Requiring input displays to disallow "unintended" uses of turbo also doens't help, as that intentionality is inherently subjective. By giving players turbo as a tool to use, they shouldn't and really can't be fairly restricted from using it. I generally agree that allowing turbo is a good thing, but it's important to have a nuanced view when considering these situations.
Late to the party here but just came across this video, and wanted to say thank you for covering this topic with such a measured and level-headed discussion :p I certainly can't speak for the entire totk speedrun community but I would say at the current point in time, accessibility is probably the main sentiment held for why digital 1.0.0 being allowed, since so many runners had bought the game on digital before the any% route had finalized on 1.0.0 being the fastest version, and forcing them to fork out for a physical copy seemed a bit much. Of course the argument for accessibility can always be turned against 1.0.0 because homebrew is a thing... yeah... but thankfully in terms of physical 1.0.0 disadvantages, with a few load manip strats being implemented, physical has made up a bit of ground to digital, at least for any% (in fact the current WR holder for any% plays on physical!). Still there always is a discussion to be had, especially for a game like totk that has already suffered from accessibility issues from less than a month after launch... thanks nintendo for the fun patches :|
Anyways sorry for the infodump-esque comment, I enjoyed the video and wanted to share my thoughts!
absolutely fascinating!! i actually learned a lot about speed running :) it’s been a foreign and somewhat alarming topic, and tbh still is for me lol, but it’s more interesting to me now
Wow, this is really interesting
It definitely feels disingenuous to allow time saves only made possible on modified hardware. To me it seems the same as playing a modded version and putting it on a leaderboard for the retail game. But I've always disliked not playing on the most current version of the game, as despite it usually patching speedrunning exploits, it's the most accessible version of the game.
If the most fun to play version is illegal one, itll be the one being played, mods and all
I play on 0.0 😵💫😵💫
🤓 armature i play on -1.0
:00000
Isn't it possible to get Digital 1.0 TotK via the Switch's weird feature where you can "update" your game to match the version of the same game on another Switch?
So like for example, since my TotK is updated to 1.2.1, but since its a physical copy, I could just give it to a friend to plug into their Switch, and use their Switch as a reference point to "update" my version of TotK to match the version on a local console
I would love to hear more about this strange feature! That would be worth discussing, but doesn't really change the accessibility issue since it would require two switches and two copies of the game.
@@SimplySnaps That's fair. The most "accessible" way I can think of is if someone has a friend who has a Switch and doesn't have TotK so they can set this up. But not everyone has a friend with a Switch, and with TotK being one of the best selling games on Switch, it would be hard to find someone who doesn't have TotK.
But still, this is one method to get Digital 1.0 and definitely more accessible than modding a Switch to get it (for now. Hopefully modding a Switch will become easier with time), but it's still a lot of hassle
Local updates only allow updates, not downgrades. Or do I misunderstand your point?
The base game is never transferred, right? And the only base you can download is 1.1?
@@craftyawesome6830 No, there's a feature when pressing + and opening up the options menu for Switch Games. In the Software Update options when pressing + on a specific game, there's an option called Match Version with Local Users. Which I assume can be used to downgrade
@@duskgaming18 Yes, that is the menu I'm talking about. And I've used it before to update. If there is a way to downgrade, it is hidden and I've never seen a reference to downgrading using it.
Had no idea how much the sonic adventure game got modded by the community. Cool info!
good video! fun
What people don't understand is that dumping the games is illegal. Everyone ignores it because "Oh I oWn It". Coming from someone that mods these games and has dumps btw. But it's illegal because it's making an illegal copy of the game.
Love your models, Skilar!
So "format-shifting" was an exception specifically carved out of the US DMCA back in the day, to allow you to for example move your music from a CD to an mp3 file. Genuine question, what makes game cartridges different in this regard? Is it just court cases?
My problem is less with the fact that Digital 1.0 technically doesn't exist, but the fact that you need to mod your console for it, which is just begging for tons of cheated runs, making things hell for the leaderboard moderators.
I'M SO EARY. Nobody has fullly watched the video as I'm writing this comment.
simplysnaps has
👂
hold up i probably broke something then cause i had the game dowloaded and pre ordered nad i never got the 1.1.0 update i left it on 1.0 about a week before i went on a trip and had my switch with me and no wifi connection and when i got home it asked to update so id alway declined it without a problem 🤔😂
Gonna make a bold prediction: give it five to ten years, and the officially agreed upon by the community format of speedrunning OoT will be through the Ship of Harkinian's PC port, with a set of rules allowing certain QoL features exclusive to the port. Hardware rots, but continuously updated software preserved by the community itself is forever.
I could see a bare bones fork of the Ship Port being used by Speedrunners in a few years. I don't think they'd allow for any enhancements, though. Maybe widescreen and 1080p, but I don't see 60fps OOT runs in the near future. We don't want a definitive HD mega-port to run on, all we really need is a version of the game that runs essentially identical to N64 without any emulation bugs or hardware rot. But yeah! This is a very good point!
@@SimplySnapsWhy not have a definitive version? Or60 fps, assuming all it does is make it look nicer
Oh my god, please do a hollow knight video
I sure would love to! But what would it be about??
Algorithm
Actually, Version 1.1 is more popular for speedrunning.
Very fair! I was more discussing Any% in this video, but I know 1.1 is more popular for All Dungeons and other categories due to the speed of auto-build cancel traveling, among other things.
As a note to viewers, please dont force your opinion on a speedrun community that you are not a part of. They don't that you think clipping out of bounds is bad of you aren't going to start doing runs with the route you're suggesting.
I'm still waiting for the sky only changes