5 mins? Shit, the merest thought of a actual real life female touching his leg would cause this Paul Rogers kid to blow his itty bitty tiny little load in his Spiderman tighty whities 😂
Props for John McCarthy, very cerebral and professional to the core. The sport of MMA would be nothing without his professionalism and near-perfect reffing,
@Tekagi John talks about it in his book about how he was actually wanting to compete in UFC since he was part of the Gracie school but the Gracies talked him out of it and put him as the referee. As far as MMA goes the man is on the Mount Rushmore, is arguably the biggest contributor to MMA and undoubtedly at the fore front back then of legitimizing MMA as a sport instead of human cockfighting.
Who doesn’t want to hear “ARE YOU READY??? AND ARE YOU READY??? ALRIGHT LETS GET IT ON!” And a big ass clap. He was the first guy from UFC who I’d pretend to be when I was a kid.
It's a good idea but I think it would be a greater book after he retires and can write on all the different experiences with all the companies he's been associated with.
Merman thats wat i thought n clicked. better its john interesting hear from a pov with his thoughts he seen lots of fights. mma intellect beyond genius lvl. jmo i agree ur comment
@@John5.56 ok nvm your just to stupid to comprehend what im saying what constitutes up and down? Perspective up and down isnt a thing without perspective someone laying downs up and down is different then someones thats standing up and someone's up and down in china is polar oppisites then someones in the u.s. and thats the argument neither one is wrong and thats why its stupid to argue about it the rules just dumb
I think Herb Dean's explanation of why he said the 12-6 elbow is illegal from the guard, just goes to show how great of a referee he is. Thinking outside of the box and enforcing the rules from all angles. It's still a 12-6 elbow if you do think about it. A weak one, but technically still one.
Yeah he was definitely in the right about that unlike Big John. 12-6 is pretty self explanatory it means straight up and down in relevance to YOU. If you're on your back lifting your hand above your head and then right back down in the opposite direction that is still straight up and down for you. It is the same motion with the same effect. Hence, illegal whether standing or not.
No it isn't still a 12-6 elbow because as john already established in this video you clown, the nut job who insisted on the rule being made specified that it's only illegal if thrown from the ceiling to the floor.
@@bestieswithtesties You have a mental shortcoming for sure lol. If the rule was made for a silly reason by a guy who knows nothing about fighting and JOHN was the one present at the meeting who confirmed that they only had to make it illegal should it be thrown from the ceiling to the floor, then how is he wrong about it you clown? It's a garbage rule either way and you prefer herb dean's method of needlessly expanding the rule to mean something it didn't originally mean? Watch the video again and pay attention this time
It’s also illogical though and you explained why when you said ‘a weak one’. The whole reason the rule was enforced was because of the power it generates. It’s significantly weaker from the bottom position so why should that be illegal. Tbh the whole 12-6 rule is illogical when compared to flying knees and spinning kicks.
The elbow is dangerous not because of the power it generates, it’s the fact that it’s a thick pointy bone going straight to your face. Imagine your on the ground and someone throws a 12 to 6 right to your eye socket sure there are other techniques that generate much more power but the 12-6 has the potential to do career ending damage
Exactly, pretty much the same as dropping a hammer dead on your skull from like a 3 metre height. The swiping type motion is far safer and still gets the “job done”
That’s why Khabitch didn’t came outside that bus.Cause Conor would have killed khabitch. Remember 12 to 6 or straight elbows are not restricted in a street fight.
Paul Rogers lmao! I would t brag about that shit homie! You seen my mom?? Even if your frog legs fought through that shit you'd have one hell of a nightmare at the other side in the form of a pissed polish iron worker of 49 years. I'm 40 and never in my life have I disrespected my father so power to you if you wanna tackle that mtn. ✌️but 2 points for attempted humor.
Joe Max - Much better than the crap on TV/Cable/MSM. I don't agree with Rogan sometimes, but his show and his guests are entertaining, educational, and insightful.
Paul Rogers that comment is ridiculous if you knew my life. Your just a troll soiling the panties of the internet. Check my channel I give away 100.00’s of dollars worth of expensive gear to subscribers every month because I am extremely financially stable. Lmao. I can retire at 41. That’s next year.
John McCarthy adds a lot of legitimacy to MMA. Well-spoken, very experienced, fair/balanced and thinks things through. One of the biggest assets of the UFC. He's a legend.
@@callanc3925 That would look fun af. Remember beyblades?😂😂😂 I just imagine Jon Jones doing Ballett like Pirouettes, smashing his elbow into somebody’s face lol
@@callanc3925 but a 12-5 is allowed though and it does the same thing. 12-6 is just a dumb rule either take out elbows of that 12-6ish type or allow 12-6
@@Alvah707 Physically they dont do the same thing, they are similar. But refs need to have clear rules on whats allowed and what isnt otherwise there would be a controversy every fight. 12-6 are easy to judge because the ref just needs to watch for a straight up and down line. 12-5 are hard to identify properly because a ref needs a mental protractor to tell if theyre at the right angle to be legal
I had read once that the concern with the "12-6" was more about the likelihood of the point of the elbow hitting the opponent's eye socket, such as a fighter with mount dropping them straight down to the face of the person underneath.
What always bugs me about the conversation around elbows is that it ignores the increased pressure applied by using a smaller surface area. Applied pressure is what causes structural damage to objects, it's the reason you can break the skin with just a gentle poke of a small needle, but not necessarily with a powerful punch. I'd argue there's a higher chance of severe cranial damage using a 12-6 elbow than any other angle, precisely because it allows you to increase the force of the strike (putting the entire mass of your torso into the strike), while dealing the damage through a very small surface area (Pressure = Force/Area). A smaller surface area results in a greater pressure, assuming the same force. A little bit of physics understanding goes a long way.
you can put your entire bodyweight into regular elbow strikes tho too. with gravity. like sitting on your punches but with elbows. you can absolutely throw your entire weight into a hook elbow. and that angle can hit the temple which is one of the weaest parts of the cranium
Applied pressure is also why punching someone with brass knuckles is so much worse than with a bare fist. It's not because the metal is harder than your hand, but rather because it concentrates the force of the punch to a much smaller surface area.
This is nonsense because regular elbow strikes are allowed and you can throw a regular elbow w the weight of the whole torso behind it just as easily. If I am on top of an opponent w ground n pound I throw an elbow 12-6 vs at an angle i can still throw my whole weight behind the strike and still have the assistance of gravity as well so the gravity stuff is also nonsense (just want to bring that up before another dingus mentions it). In fact when you throw an elbow at an angle you’re twisting your body across and using your obliques more which allows you to generate a ton of power, I would not be surprised if regular elbows are more powerful that 12-6 ones
Same, to this day its the most brutal KO I've seen. I think alot of it has to do with the sound. Since there's no crowd you can hear the full impact and the worst part imo is hearing the guy gasping for air unconscious and contorted as fuck.
While I think the 12-6 elbow should be legalized, I am reminded of an early UFC match where a guy had his opponent in a crucifix and just dropped repeat 12-6s into the other dude's temple. One of the most brutal KOs I've seen.
Don Holbrook he was actually going to compete in the first or second ufc. He was a student of rorion's, if I remember right. He's the dude who scared the f out of art jimmerson before his fight with Royce - and hence why he tapped with no strikes thrown.
Jason Bliss when's the last time u landed an execution style kick to the head? Probably never cause it's really fucking hard, even harder so against a trained fighter. Doesn't matter how trained u are, if u can barely move and someone smashing your orbital from above
I was up late and even my friend who knows close to nothing in mma started talking about this and discussing it and such. I like this topic and others like it because it opens people up to discussion and learning. Keep doing these topics and everything else! You're great
I was under the impression that the 12-6 elbow was illegal only on the mat. The rule would make sense to me mostly because if a fighter has their head resting on the mat and it is struck directly towards the mat there would be a lot more energy staying where you're striking. (Didn't say that quite as well as I could have)... Example: You have a hammer and nail. You hit the nail on the head with the spike in mid air with the hammer. There's barely any damage to the nail. You hit the nail on the head with the spike on wood. There's barely damage to the nail, but more than in mid air. You hit the nail on the head with the spike on concrete. There's a lot of damage to the nail, but more than against the wood.
Smart guy big John. Very eloquent and articulate, no er's, no um's or pauses. Easy to understand. I would love to talk like that in just everyday conversation and here he is on a live podcast talking and explaining stuff to the masses.
I would like to see the data also determine the impact of the 12-6 elbow while compressing the head into the mat. The other strikes mentioned here do not compress the head into the floor, which allows for natural biomechanics to help protect the athlete.
I agree with Herbs interpretation. The 12-6 elbow should be relative to the fighters position not the ground plane. Leaning your torso forward 5 degrees makes the same strike legal. Gonna have referees carrying protractors and Flava Flav clocks on their necks.
Dear John, Dean was correct because the 12-6 is in relation to the strikers body. Therefore even when the striker is on their back 12-6 is the same as if standing. 8:20-9:10
Herb Dean shit was hillarious :D Yet, I think he have a point. Your body position changes horizontally when you are on the ground, so you literally just doing same elbow just from different position horizontally.
I remember a 300+ lbs Gary Goodridge used a volley of rapid 🔥 12-6 elbows on middleweight Paul Herrera while he had him crucifixed. It was insanely cool to watch but at the same time brutal as hell. He was literally knocked senseless and ultimately TKOed
Not to mention the impact being magnified because your head is normally pinned to the ground if you are on the receiving end of and absorbing most of the impact. Kinda like the impact of a punch being much greater if the opponent is moving toward the striker than away. Makes total sense why it is illegal.
I imagine the force from a true 12-6 elbow strike onto the top of the skull would be transmitted straight down into the spinal column. For lateral hits one has muscles and the freedom of movement to absorb much of the force. That's not the case in vertical strikes. A fighter on his feet can generate quite a lot of force -- probably best that force doesn't get delivered in a very small and hard contact area on top of the hollow brain case, not only because of the possibility of fracture but also spinal fracture and other damage.
Big respect, Big John! You are the best ref in the UFC. I would die of a heart attack if I knew I was fighting and had Herb "smoked to much herb" Dean or Mario "miss everything" Yamaskai calling the shots.
Phillip Gratton the top of your head is the hardest part of your skull man, I've broken my knuckle on my brothers head a couple times sparring lightly.
Phillip Gratton well you ain’t allowed to hit the back of the head anyway, that’s illegal. And most of the time a 12-6 elbow will only come into play from the top mount, so most of the time the strike will hit the four head and face and maybe the top of the skull, and as John said 1-7 is legal 11-5 legal and it’s hardly much of a difference. It’s just stupid politics nothing more and nothing else.
Phillip Gratton it's a smashing the top of the head whilst propped against the ground issue that is dangerous, as well as they can't defend themselves well when mounted
Maybe doesn’t carry as much power, but it is not covered like a fist. I think if an elbow hits you from 12-6 it’s bound to do more damage than a hammer first from 12-6 mainly because there is no padding. Also, an elbow’s hit area is way smaller than a fist so more of the force is directed into a smaller area which can cause more damage. I see why it is not allowed and personally i agree
They are forgetting one thing though... *PRESSURE*. Pressure is the difference between breaking a bone upon impact, be that a skull upon an elbow. And a 12-6 makes it very easy to hit directly with a smaller surface area, even when compared to diagonal, upwards and side elbows. In terms of force, a 12-6, between too identically weighed opponents, might not involve as much force or power as a kick or a knee. But it can deliver more pressure. A 12-6 elbow can also hit with relatively high amounts of force when compared with other elbows, given as it's powered by different muscle groups, specifically the lats, while also being powered by gravity. When compared with other strikes (punches, knees, kicks) an elbow can deliver a lot more pressure, since it makes contact with a much smaller surface area. And pressure makes the difference between breaking a bony surface or not or piercing the flesh or not piercing, as elbows themselves have already showed to cut extensively. So we can understand that a 12-6 elbow might be the strongest elbow, and that elbows in general will already translate to larger amounts of pressure. 1- It's the same reason as to why you can lie down on a bed of nails: the force of your body into each nail is scattered throughout all of the area of the body, thereby reducing the pressure of each nail. 2 - The same reason why people use large surface footwear in the slow = increase the surface area --> reduce pressure of the feet in the snow ---> less pressure so you won't sink in the snow. 3 - Same reason as to why, theoretically, a woman's heels stepping on you, can amount to the same pressure as an elephant steping on you. Less force/weight (i,,e, a woman's mass times gravity compared to an elephants, thereby a lot less force) but through a needle heel, a *VERY* small surface area. Generating absurd amounts of pressure. if Pressure = Force / Area, then, in the case of the 12-6 elbow, you can put all of your force into a very small surface area - the olecranon - that is the actual bony protrusion that is the "back" of elbow, and amount to great deals of pressure. Same concept as breaking a glass with a needle. Couple that with a frontal bone, and you might generate more pressure on it and fracture it, when compared to a knee or a shin to a forehead, because even though they carry more force, their points of contact have a lot more area! Also, keep in minds that the frontal bone is relatively prone to fractures, given as it's flatter, just like Cyborg santos's frontal bone fractured and caved in after MVP kneed him in the forehead. Now... is the amount of pressure that's generated by the 12-6 elbow significant? we don't know and it depends on skull structure and size of the person. But it's also not as simple as it being purely about Force or Power like Joe and John are discussing, it.s about pressure too. 4 - *Don't forget the example of hand fractures!* Bear hands make contact with the knuckles, not a whole glove, thereby a much smaller surface area.Which is why gloves are used! With bare knuckles, the punches will actually have less force behind them and ability to cause concussion and brain damage, but the knuckles can break a lot more easily, seeing as the only points of contact are the two small knuckles, not the area of a whole glove, or you can even brake facial bones a lot more easily. They care about fighters not breaking bones because it'l stop them from fighting short term! it's not actually to protect the head! same as headgear, it doesn't protect against concussive brain damage, quite the contrary. Joe actually talks about this extensively while saying gloved hands cause more brain damage, and he's right. I don't have an answer but i do agree with you in one way: this is not that clear cut conclusion.
Bernardo W. Lopes all I read was pressure, but yah how do people not think of that, big difference between throwing strikes at a head with nothing but air holding it in place
I totally understand why it's illegal cause I jumped to get a basketball and landed on a significantly bigger dudes head with my elbow once, he was out cold...
The whole thing I was talking about was an accident btw lol not bragging...but in response to "and that changes what?" is everything I would rather fight a non trained fighter then a trained one lol deerrrr..
In this podcast Big John admits to telling the Fertitta brothers that paying fighters $1 million plus was a bad idea. He planted the seed that led to fighter pay issues that we currently hear about today. The fact he hasn't been called out on this is mind boggling.
I think the placement of an elbow or knee (or any strike) to the fontanelles (top and back of the head) should obviously be illegal, but the logic of 12-6 elbow makes little sense other than what Big John alluded: there might be some kind of medical legal liability.
Small amount of surface area of the elbow is what makes the force of the elbow so great. Isn't that what might cause the problem? A force concentrated on small surface area would do more damage than a higher force spread out.
McCarthy really knows his wrestling. Even uses old Catch wrestling lingo with "Spiking" and "Arches" etc.. A very rare breed these days, with all the clueless BJJ-fanboys running rampant on different organizations.
Out of all the fighters that were discussed dropping the 12-6 elbow, neither of them brought up when Jon Jones decimated Matt Hammil with the 12-6 and got disqualified which is jones only technical loss. That elbow is deadly idc what anyone says.
A heel kick has many many more times the power that a 12 to 6 elbow has though. It’s indisputable that you can fuck someone up with a heel kick or spinning back kick way more than a 12 to 6 elbow strike for strike. besides If anybody lands even 20 unanswered 12 to 6 elbows the ref should be in jail
A good tae-kwon-doker can get a immediate knockout with a spinning heel/wheel. If your hitting someone with 40 elbows the ref should of already stopped it. And do u know how weak a 12-6 really is.
Honest question.. Am I the only one that agrees with the 12 to 6 elbow rule? Imo its way more dangerous than the "regular" one because it works along side gravity being a really easy strike to put some serious power into with not much effort, also because its nearly impossible to defend yourself against the point of an elbow wich its a very small target to defend against and its rly easy to slide through your guard (because of the movement required to perform the "regular" elbow this doesnt happen), but most of all- because of the power in that strike: you can put an insane amount of power in that elbow ( gravity its rly in your favour here) and the area of contact is incredibly small, this is the same science behind breaking glass with a needle... so I would take my chances and say that a 12 to 6 elbow could pretty much equallize a head kick in terms of power and therefore would be like being kicked in the head while youre in the ground
Junkie Jesus my comparison would be standard elbows are shoulder and hip powered, a 12-6 is the same as a pull up,and a sit up combined. 12-6 will END most wrestling, bottom guard position is twice as good with 12-6. Side control would last fractions of what we see with 12-6. Maybe it shouldn't be illegal but this is SO STUPID about the brick thing. No one cares about a non moving object this isn't cult arts. Any thing grapple related standing or ground 12-6 is the end all best strike possible to throw from basically all positions. They wanna hype up with the punching machine, let's show a hook elbow then compare Jones vs hamil for example. To add, a kick is far above the power. But the kick isn't used while your STUCK on the ground etc. Kicks take much more time to reach also. I'm not much for rules, think it degrades the arts. Jiu jitsu has become extremely limited due to no 12-6, no knees, no up kicking someone while they are above you in guard.
arizona tea I mostly agree with you and actually love the use of elbows as a technique, however when we go into if it is as powerful as a heel kick or a head kick, fighters and people that are inside the business like rogan say that it isnt, but I dont believe they think about the 12 to 6 elbow in a scientific way, a heel kick or a head kick may have more power going into the strike but the area of contact its still bigger than the point of your elbow, this means more dissipation of energy and less concentration of power so I would put my money on the university studies they talked about in the podcast showing exactly what Im saying in terms of power
Junkie Jesus hmm. Interesting. Your right the pin point hit is more damaging due to high concentration in a smaller area. But I feel like a elbow would break more bones, the kick will have far more internal damage especially to the head. They need to take like 10 guys of different size weight style etc and test it. They wanna compare someone hits "as hard as a Ford explorer going 20mph" but no testing on things the sport should thoroughly research for the future. My end point is, a 12-6 will do way way more then just cut your eyebrow like a hook elbow. Jones wrecked hamil head immediately after his, but he throws A LOT of hook elbows with almost no comparison in damage their opponent can visually show. Thanks for the debate buddy lot of good (elbow) points lol👍
I think you're somewhat confusing the concept of force/power and pressure. In terms of pressure, yes, a 12-6 elbow can be very dangerous, as it can hit with relatively high amount of force, even though less than a kick, but with a much smaller surface area, i.e., amount to a lot more pressure. And pressure makes the difference between breaking a bony surface or not or piercing the flesh or not piercing, as elbows themselves have already showed to cut extensively. 1- It's the same reason as to why you can lie down on a bed of nails: the force of your body into each nail is scattered throughout all of the area of the body, thereby reducing the pressure of each nail. 2 - The same reason why people use large surface footwear in the slow = increase the surface area --> reduce pressure of the feet in the snow ---> less pressure so you won't sink in the snow. 3 - Same reason as to why, theoretically, a woman's heels stepping on you, can amount to the same pressure as an elephant steping on you. Less force/weight (i,,e, a woman's mass times gravity) but througth a needle heel, a *VERY* small surface area. giganting amounts of pressure. You get the deal. if Pressure = Force / Area, then, in the case of the 12-6 elbow, you can put all of your force into a very small surface area - the olecranon - that is the actual bony protrusion that is the "back" of elbow, and amount to great deals of pressure. Same concept as breaking a glass with a needle. Also, the frontal bone is relatively prone to fractures, given as it's flatter, just like Cyborg santos's frontal bone fractured and caved in after MVP kneed him in the forehead. Now... is the amount of pressure that's generated by the 12-6 elbow significant? we don't now and it depends on skull structure and size of the person. But also not as simple as it being purely about Force or Powe, it.s about pressure too. 4 - hand fractures! Bear hands make contact with the knuckles, not a whole glove, thereby a much smaller surface area.Which is why gloves are used! With bare knuckles, the punches will actually have less force behind them and ability to cause concussion and brain damage, but the knucles can break a lot more easily, seeing as the only points of contact are the two small knuckles, not the area of a whole glove. They care about fighters not breaking hands! it's not actually to protect the head! same as headgear, it doesn't protect against concussive brain damage, quite the contrary. Joe actually talks about this extensively while saying gloved hands cause more brain damage, and he's right. Sorry for the rant, but hopefully others will read it and find it helpful as well. I don't have an answer but i do agree with you in one way: this is not that clear cut conclusion.
Bernardo W. Lopes that's basically a pound per square inch type of thing right?? I usually see that unit of measure, and we can all agree whether you kick traditional or Thai (instep vs where shin and ankle meet) your elbow is prob 5x smaller or less compared to whatever contact you use on the kick so it's high force in a super tiny contact point. Some body kicks end up catching the 3/4 of the shin that's several inches in more then one direction. Also your head gear comment, its 99% to reduce cuts and accidental head buts or elbows in sparring. It truly just reduces the swelling and cuts but your dome piece is still taking it all. Should we #free12-6 ?!?
mr beard I’m recently getting into the UFC and MMA as a whole and these two alone have given me an insane amount of information, glad I found them both! A book would be super beneficial to new fighters and fans alike
It's not everyday that a new sport is created he should probably preserve his account for history n stuff. Think of all gladiators of Rome . They're story's are still alive in movies to this day. Who's gonna play big john in the movie lol. ......wait why isn't there a movie about the beginning of mma yet lol
Soooooo.... the gravity in the elbow strike can be calculated, average arm, say 30 lbs... 9.8ms acceleration... a guess at max 100cm of travel... so gravity adds about 3 pounds max to the impact... of what is otherwise likely a strike with many dozens of pounds of force.
I don’t know that I agree, the small surface area of the elbow coming down on a head isn’t the same as a whole heel or shin from a kick. Plus the head doesn’t move freely with the force of the blow if it’s coming from 12 to 6.
Man I could listen to Big John just explaining MMA shit for hours...
Paul Rogers you know you wouldn't be able too last 5 minutes
Apply cold water to burned area.🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ian Batista Gross
5 mins? Shit, the merest thought of a actual real life female touching his leg would cause this Paul Rogers kid to blow his itty bitty tiny little load in his Spiderman tighty whities 😂
wjl32 good descriptive writing.
Props for John McCarthy, very cerebral and professional to the core. The sport of MMA would be nothing without his professionalism and near-perfect reffing,
Jason Campbell exactly. I've seen refs that couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time
Well said my friend, well said
I know I’m gay when I say this but Lame ass
@Tekagi John talks about it in his book about how he was actually wanting to compete in UFC since he was part of the Gracie school but the Gracies talked him out of it and put him as the referee. As far as MMA goes the man is on the Mount Rushmore, is arguably the biggest contributor to MMA and undoubtedly at the fore front back then of legitimizing MMA as a sport instead of human cockfighting.
Who doesn’t want to hear “ARE YOU READY??? AND ARE YOU READY??? ALRIGHT LETS GET IT ON!” And a big ass clap. He was the first guy from UFC who I’d pretend to be when I was a kid.
No downward elbows but full sprint flying knees to the face are #supernecessary 🍗🍗🍗🥤
Yeah ask Ben Askren about that😂😂😂
you're dumb
a random person lol no u
super necessary
I suppose the impact is different because you'll knock back from a flying knee but you'll recieve full impact from a 12-6 elbow.
Love Big John, such a legend.
The guy looks the same as he did 20 years ago.
AGREED 110%
BOW YA SHITS Lol he’s a fucking ref dude calm down, or do you just worship everyone you’re told to
Barry Shitpeas tf? Go back under whatever rock you came from.
Whineeee!!!
God bless John McCarthy for everything he's done for MMA through the years. A true legend.
There is no god. Please don't be ridiculous.
200th like
Frank N. Stein I can tell you’re the type of person to call the police on a 6 year old selling lemonade outside his house.
@@ChengMcGoldstein God bless is just an expression, why are u triggered?
Hall of famer
i like how he real smoothly talked about himself in the 3rd person
haha glad you saw that as well. lol
Lol thought I was the only one
Yo! I thought I was the only one who caught that. Hahahah.
Macho Man would be impressed. Ooh yea
😂😂😂
Herb "6-12 clock on the ceiling" Dean
Lol, Herb "ceiling clock" Dean
6-12 on the fuckin ceiling. Herb is a comedian.
It's 12-6 but I get you.
@@666ingz thats an uppercut lol
@@missionpupa 😂
So the 12-6 elbow is legal if you use a digital clock then?
yousaidwinglikeabirdswing lmao
YOUD HAVE TO DRAW OUT THE NUMBER 🤣
yousaidwinglikeabirdswing classic. Mike Jackson used it on CM PUNK.
Lol haha
yousaidwinglikeabirdswing Well thats a good point... They should ban fighters for looking at the big screen just because of this!
ARE YOU READY 👉
👈 ARE YOU READY
👏LET'S GET IT ON
Fine, take your like.
You forgot the “come on!”
‘Nuff said.
Herb “ 12-6 on the ceiling” Dean
John:Herb when have u seen a clock on the ceiling
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Bro I was crying 😂😂😂
Herb "Ceiling Clock" Dean
Has John written a book? He could. He's seen a lot.
He should,call it "My memories as a UFC referee".
Google it
CarSmartsTV “look into it”
He did. It was released on September 1, 2011, autoobiography titled "Let's Get It On - The Making of MMA and its Ultimate Referee."
It's a good idea but I think it would be a greater book after he retires and can write on all the different experiences with all the companies he's been associated with.
Joe is really perfecting the owen wilson "wow" in this podcast
I only know it from legends
Bruh was Owen Wilson saying that a lot in Wedding Crashers? Or am I tripping lol
I heard a wow the second I read this comment 😂
Ollie
RaShaan Boone he says it in every fuckin movie lol its an art
Big John is like a vault of MMA and combats sports knowledge in general him and Herb Dean are two of the best refs in MMA
Herb? Really?
Lliam Sangiorgio Yes. Really.
@@JM-dy4ty No one was talking to you, but Herb Dean is hardly a shining example of a good referee
Lliam Sangiorgio he wasn’t talking to you either.
@@JM-dy4ty man said no one was talking to you as if this is not a public forum ☠️
Damn he looks like a batman ben affleck
Merman fuck yeah he does, although big John would fuck him up. Hahahahaha
Merman thats wat i thought n clicked. better its john interesting hear from a pov with his thoughts he seen lots of fights. mma intellect beyond genius lvl. jmo i agree ur comment
I’m goin’ beefed up Adam Sandler Lol
Lol. He totally does
Good shout bro
Didn’t know Big John was so involved in the evolution of MMA. He knows his shit!
I didnt either.
He's been there from beginning so. :>
He reffed UFC 1. The man knows his shit
@@djLagwayEnjoyer he started at 2
@@jacidstorm2592 he started halfway through 1. A ref stopped a fight and back then they couldn't so they threw the ref out and sent Big John in.
"I was going for 11:58 to 6:01 though..."
This is one of the people most will never hear about but has done huge things. He basically wrote, and is still writing the rules for modern MMA.
He Looks like Tommy Dreamer lol
AlphaReacts
I thought I was first then I found your comment when scrolled down lol
AlphaReacts holy shit great call
Get a chair
Tommy dreamer looks like him... lol get that right
Big John ain't a whale XD
Maybe it’s just me , but Herb’s logic about the clock wasn’t farfetched ..
Thought the same exact thing. It's because the 12-6 rule itself is stupid.
If you're on your back, you are swinging your elbow up, not down. Its that simple
@@John5.56 but the rule doesnt state the perspective of the clock so both arguments are valid the rule is dumb
@@markmartin8400 mate the saying 12oclock literally means straight up for a reason lmao?
@@John5.56 ok nvm your just to stupid to comprehend what im saying what constitutes up and down? Perspective up and down isnt a thing without perspective someone laying downs up and down is different then someones thats standing up and someone's up and down in china is polar oppisites then someones in the u.s. and thats the argument neither one is wrong and thats why its stupid to argue about it the rules just dumb
I loved you in the accountant
Drip Droppity kinda looks like him
Affleck was the bomb in Phantoms, yo.
Yo this leaned me 😂😂😂
I thought it was Affleck from the thumbnail
LMFAO
This discussion is severely underrated. We need more knowledgeable proponents like this to pull for the sport.
I think Herb Dean's explanation of why he said the 12-6 elbow is illegal from the guard, just goes to show how great of a referee he is. Thinking outside of the box and enforcing the rules from all angles. It's still a 12-6 elbow if you do think about it. A weak one, but technically still one.
Yeah he was definitely in the right about that unlike Big John. 12-6 is pretty self explanatory it means straight up and down in relevance to YOU. If you're on your back lifting your hand above your head and then right back down in the opposite direction that is still straight up and down for you. It is the same motion with the same effect. Hence, illegal whether standing or not.
Yes! After hearing that, I was kinda like dang, Herb is a smart dude.
No it isn't still a 12-6 elbow because as john already established in this video you clown, the nut job who insisted on the rule being made specified that it's only illegal if thrown from the ceiling to the floor.
@@bestieswithtesties You have a mental shortcoming for sure lol. If the rule was made for a silly reason by a guy who knows nothing about fighting and JOHN was the one present at the meeting who confirmed that they only had to make it illegal should it be thrown from the ceiling to the floor, then how is he wrong about it you clown? It's a garbage rule either way and you prefer herb dean's method of needlessly expanding the rule to mean something it didn't originally mean? Watch the video again and pay attention this time
It’s also illogical though and you explained why when you said ‘a weak one’. The whole reason the rule was enforced was because of the power it generates. It’s significantly weaker from the bottom position so why should that be illegal. Tbh the whole 12-6 rule is illogical when compared to flying knees and spinning kicks.
The elbow is dangerous not because of the power it generates, it’s the fact that it’s a thick pointy bone going straight to your face. Imagine your on the ground and someone throws a 12 to 6 right to your eye socket sure there are other techniques that generate much more power but the 12-6 has the potential to do career ending damage
Exactly, pretty much the same as dropping a hammer dead on your skull from like a 3 metre height. The swiping type motion is far safer and still gets the “job done”
Conor would kill Khabitch in a street fight,cause 12 to 6 or straight elbows are not restricted in a street fight.
That’s why Khabitch didn’t came outside that bus.Cause Conor would have killed khabitch.
Remember 12 to 6 or straight elbows are not restricted in a street fight.
Jones vs hamill
Glad to have some new content. This podcast is my primary evening entertainment. Love it.
Paul Rogers lmao! I would t brag about that shit homie! You seen my mom?? Even if your frog legs fought through that shit you'd have one hell of a nightmare at the other side in the form of a pissed polish iron worker of 49 years. I'm 40 and never in my life have I disrespected my father so power to you if you wanna tackle that mtn. ✌️but 2 points for attempted humor.
Joe Max - Much better than the crap on TV/Cable/MSM. I don't agree with Rogan sometimes, but his show and his guests are entertaining, educational, and insightful.
Paul Rogers that comment is ridiculous if you knew my life. Your just a troll soiling the panties of the internet. Check my channel I give away 100.00’s of dollars worth of expensive gear to subscribers every month because I am extremely financially stable. Lmao. I can retire at 41. That’s next year.
John McCarthy adds a lot of legitimacy to MMA. Well-spoken, very experienced, fair/balanced and thinks things through. One of the biggest assets of the UFC. He's a legend.
I just love this "first name" insert quote ironically "last name" joke
What about the spinning elbow? With all that momentum it definitely has more power than 12 to 6
yeah but you cant exactly unload those super rapidly like you can with 12-6s
@@callanc3925 💯
@@callanc3925 That would look fun af. Remember beyblades?😂😂😂 I just imagine Jon Jones doing Ballett like Pirouettes, smashing his elbow into somebody’s face lol
@@callanc3925 but a 12-5 is allowed though and it does the same thing. 12-6 is just a dumb rule either take out elbows of that 12-6ish type or allow 12-6
@@Alvah707 Physically they dont do the same thing, they are similar. But refs need to have clear rules on whats allowed and what isnt otherwise there would be a controversy every fight. 12-6 are easy to judge because the ref just needs to watch for a straight up and down line. 12-5 are hard to identify properly because a ref needs a mental protractor to tell if theyre at the right angle to be legal
Joe “They used to break bricks with it on ESPN” Rogan
got to ask - where did the Rogan meme's come from?
Lucid Lagomorph from his podcast lmao.
I had read once that the concern with the "12-6" was more about the likelihood of the point of the elbow hitting the opponent's eye socket, such as a fighter with mount dropping them straight down to the face of the person underneath.
What always bugs me about the conversation around elbows is that it ignores the increased pressure applied by using a smaller surface area. Applied pressure is what causes structural damage to objects, it's the reason you can break the skin with just a gentle poke of a small needle, but not necessarily with a powerful punch. I'd argue there's a higher chance of severe cranial damage using a 12-6 elbow than any other angle, precisely because it allows you to increase the force of the strike (putting the entire mass of your torso into the strike), while dealing the damage through a very small surface area (Pressure = Force/Area). A smaller surface area results in a greater pressure, assuming the same force.
A little bit of physics understanding goes a long way.
you can put your entire bodyweight into regular elbow strikes tho too. with gravity. like sitting on your punches but with elbows. you can absolutely throw your entire weight into a hook elbow. and that angle can hit the temple which is one of the weaest parts of the cranium
Applied pressure is also why punching someone with brass knuckles is so much worse than with a bare fist. It's not because the metal is harder than your hand, but rather because it concentrates the force of the punch to a much smaller surface area.
verbose way of saying "I don't know how to fight"
not if your clock is on a ceiling though
This is nonsense because regular elbow strikes are allowed and you can throw a regular elbow w the weight of the whole torso behind it just as easily. If I am on top of an opponent w ground n pound I throw an elbow 12-6 vs at an angle i can still throw my whole weight behind the strike and still have the assistance of gravity as well so the gravity stuff is also nonsense (just want to bring that up before another dingus mentions it). In fact when you throw an elbow at an angle you’re twisting your body across and using your obliques more which allows you to generate a ton of power, I would not be surprised if regular elbows are more powerful that 12-6 ones
John 'LOOKIT' McCarthy.
Sam Cooke lmao right when i read this he said it😂😂
I say lookit too
Chartered I say that. Is big John McCarthy from the midwest?
I was gonna post the same thing
I scrolled down just to find this comment haha
Uriah Hall's spinning back kick was the hardest I ever saw someone get hit, super legal
J Hall I cringe every time I see one land... surprised it hasn’t killed anyone in the UFC yet 👀
Cung Le in Strikeforce, some of his spinning back kicks hurt a lot of people
yeah, but a spinning back kick to the face is really difficult to pull off
Edson Barboza flying knee was super nasty aswell
Same, to this day its the most brutal KO I've seen. I think alot of it has to do with the sound. Since there's no crowd you can hear the full impact and the worst part imo is hearing the guy gasping for air unconscious and contorted as fuck.
Big John is the man!
2:45 CD ROM... made on the computer... How high is Rogan LOL
While I think the 12-6 elbow should be legalized, I am reminded of an early UFC match where a guy had his opponent in a crucifix and just dropped repeat 12-6s into the other dude's temple. One of the most brutal KOs I've seen.
Always liked John McCarthy I never realized how smart he is I heard he can whip some ass too
Don Holbrook he was actually going to compete in the first or second ufc. He was a student of rorion's, if I remember right. He's the dude who scared the f out of art jimmerson before his fight with Royce - and hence why he tapped with no strikes thrown.
I think he used to train LA SWAT. Before the first UFC.
Holy crap! I had no idea just how pivotal UFC refs were behind the scenes. Much fuking respect.
I love how he's basically just admitting "these clowns wanted to introduce dumb rules, so I played their game and made them dumber."
Legend
How is he saying that ?
The real undefeated champ right here. Mans a walking MMA encyclopedia.
John McCarthy is a very well-spoken person. Someone get this dude a show!
Hes commentating for bellator now if that counts
Literally every arm technique is nothing compared to most kicks.
Jonathan Woollett-Light ya right dude, gimme nate diaz powerful arm punches over Cro Cop kicks any day.
But if u get hit with a kick it's your own fault
In the head I mean
Jason Bliss yah and there's a reason u can't use kicks to someone with a hand on the ground
Jason Bliss when's the last time u landed an execution style kick to the head? Probably never cause it's really fucking hard, even harder so against a trained fighter. Doesn't matter how trained u are, if u can barely move and someone smashing your orbital from above
I am only watching this through short clips but this guy is making me want to watch the whole thing.
I was up late and even my friend who knows close to nothing in mma started talking about this and discussing it and such. I like this topic and others like it because it opens people up to discussion and learning. Keep doing these topics and everything else! You're great
Lol I just noticed big John wearing a Bellator shirt
You should have had Jones on here to explain the 12/6 elbows
I was under the impression that the 12-6 elbow was illegal only on the mat. The rule would make sense to me mostly because if a fighter has their head resting on the mat and it is struck directly towards the mat there would be a lot more energy staying where you're striking. (Didn't say that quite as well as I could have)...
Example: You have a hammer and nail.
You hit the nail on the head with the spike in mid air with the hammer. There's barely any damage to the nail.
You hit the nail on the head with the spike on wood. There's barely damage to the nail, but more than in mid air.
You hit the nail on the head with the spike on concrete. There's a lot of damage to the nail, but more than against the wood.
Makes no sense. Ban kicks if you are afraid of energy. Much more powerful and devastating
Smart guy big John. Very eloquent and articulate, no er's, no um's or pauses. Easy to understand. I would love to talk like that in just everyday conversation and here he is on a live podcast talking and explaining stuff to the masses.
Big John is the best ref that ever reffed. Keep it up big man. Don't need to lose you
Big John needs to be a voice actor
big john might low key be one of the most important people in MMA history easily
I would like to see the data also determine the impact of the 12-6 elbow while compressing the head into the mat. The other strikes mentioned here do not compress the head into the floor, which allows for natural biomechanics to help protect the athlete.
I agree with Herbs interpretation. The 12-6 elbow should be relative to the fighters position not the ground plane. Leaning your torso forward 5 degrees makes the same strike legal. Gonna have referees carrying protractors and Flava Flav clocks on their necks.
Dear John,
Dean was correct because the 12-6 is in relation to the strikers body. Therefore even when the striker is on their back 12-6 is the same as if standing. 8:20-9:10
Love big John, by far my most favorite ref in ANY sport
Herb Dean shit was hillarious :D Yet, I think he have a point. Your body position changes horizontally when you are on the ground, so you literally just doing same elbow just from different position horizontally.
When he talked about the video they watched to ban 12 to 6 elbows there was a massive difference in size of the fighters.
I guess that 12 to 6 elbow is bad as it will mainly target the fragile areas like the back and top of the head and the spine
An over hand right could just as easily land in the same area or a spinning elbow could do the same.
bighands69 but they dont happen as common ..
Omar Magdy correct
I remember a 300+ lbs Gary Goodridge used a volley of rapid 🔥 12-6 elbows on middleweight Paul Herrera while he had him crucifixed. It was insanely cool to watch but at the same time brutal as hell. He was literally knocked senseless and ultimately TKOed
Not to mention the impact being magnified because your head is normally pinned to the ground if you are on the receiving end of and absorbing most of the impact. Kinda like the impact of a punch being much greater if the opponent is moving toward the striker than away. Makes total sense why it is illegal.
Dam that was a technical discussion😱😱 John is a fountain of knowledge
He is such a top-notch guy and just an encyclopedia of the sport. You should have him on as much as possible.
John is so knowledgeable in the fight game!
never imagined this guy would be so well spoken and intelligent. seems like a cool bloke
to me the elbow is always more about getting cut and tore up. they make the fight a bloody mess more than any other strike.
Tell that to the knee strikes
I imagine the force from a true 12-6 elbow strike onto the top of the skull would be transmitted straight down into the spinal column. For lateral hits one has muscles and the freedom of movement to absorb much of the force. That's not the case in vertical strikes. A fighter on his feet can generate quite a lot of force -- probably best that force doesn't get delivered in a very small and hard contact area on top of the hollow brain case, not only because of the possibility of fracture but also spinal fracture and other damage.
The ending to this video seemed like an early stoppage
Big respect, Big John! You are the best ref in the UFC. I would die of a heart attack if I knew I was fighting and had Herb "smoked to much herb" Dean or Mario "miss everything" Yamaskai calling the shots.
I think its more of a striking the top of the head issue. Shouldnt be able to hit the top or back of the head.
Phillip Gratton the top of your head is the hardest part of your skull man, I've broken my knuckle on my brothers head a couple times sparring lightly.
Lambroghini Mercy its not about hardness, its about spinal compression.
Phillip Gratton well you ain’t allowed to hit the back of the head anyway, that’s illegal. And most of the time a 12-6 elbow will only come into play from the top mount, so most of the time the strike will hit the four head and face and maybe the top of the skull, and as John said 1-7 is legal 11-5 legal and it’s hardly much of a difference. It’s just stupid politics nothing more and nothing else.
Phillip Gratton it's a smashing the top of the head whilst propped against the ground issue that is dangerous, as well as they can't defend themselves well when mounted
Then why is an axe kick legal?
Maybe doesn’t carry as much power, but it is not covered like a fist. I think if an elbow hits you from 12-6 it’s bound to do more damage than a hammer first from 12-6 mainly because there is no padding. Also, an elbow’s hit area is way smaller than a fist so more of the force is directed into a smaller area which can cause more damage. I see why it is not allowed and personally i agree
They are forgetting one thing though... *PRESSURE*. Pressure is the difference between breaking a bone upon impact, be that a skull upon an elbow. And a 12-6 makes it very easy to hit directly with a smaller surface area, even when compared to diagonal, upwards and side elbows.
In terms of force, a 12-6, between too identically weighed opponents, might not involve as much force or power as a kick or a knee. But it can deliver more pressure. A 12-6 elbow can also hit with relatively high amounts of force when compared with other elbows, given as it's powered by different muscle groups, specifically the lats, while also being powered by gravity. When compared with other strikes (punches, knees, kicks) an elbow can deliver a lot more pressure, since it makes contact with a much smaller surface area. And pressure makes the difference between breaking a bony surface or not or piercing the flesh or not piercing, as elbows themselves have already showed to cut extensively. So we can understand that a 12-6 elbow might be the strongest elbow, and that elbows in general will already translate to larger amounts of pressure.
1- It's the same reason as to why you can lie down on a bed of nails: the force of your body into each nail is scattered throughout all of the area of the body, thereby reducing the pressure of each nail.
2 - The same reason why people use large surface footwear in the slow = increase the surface area --> reduce pressure of the feet in the snow ---> less pressure so you won't sink in the snow.
3 - Same reason as to why, theoretically, a woman's heels stepping on you, can amount to the same pressure as an elephant steping on you. Less force/weight (i,,e, a woman's mass times gravity compared to an elephants, thereby a lot less force) but through a needle heel, a *VERY* small surface area. Generating absurd amounts of pressure.
if Pressure = Force / Area, then, in the case of the 12-6 elbow, you can put all of your force into a very small surface area - the olecranon - that is the actual bony protrusion that is the "back" of elbow, and amount to great deals of pressure. Same concept as breaking a glass with a needle. Couple that with a frontal bone, and you might generate more pressure on it and fracture it, when compared to a knee or a shin to a forehead, because even though they carry more force, their points of contact have a lot more area! Also, keep in minds that the frontal bone is relatively prone to fractures, given as it's flatter, just like Cyborg santos's frontal bone fractured and caved in after MVP kneed him in the forehead.
Now... is the amount of pressure that's generated by the 12-6 elbow significant? we don't know and it depends on skull structure and size of the person. But it's also not as simple as it being purely about Force or Power like Joe and John are discussing, it.s about pressure too.
4 - *Don't forget the example of hand fractures!* Bear hands make contact with the knuckles, not a whole glove, thereby a much smaller surface area.Which is why gloves are used! With bare knuckles, the punches will actually have less force behind them and ability to cause concussion and brain damage, but the knuckles can break a lot more easily, seeing as the only points of contact are the two small knuckles, not the area of a whole glove, or you can even brake facial bones a lot more easily. They care about fighters not breaking bones because it'l stop them from fighting short term! it's not actually to protect the head! same as headgear, it doesn't protect against concussive brain damage, quite the contrary. Joe actually talks about this extensively while saying gloved hands cause more brain damage, and he's right.
I don't have an answer but i do agree with you in one way: this is not that clear cut conclusion.
Bernardo W. Lopes no ones got time to read that
Bernardo W. Lopes oh god stfu
Interesting comment! Good explanation of what's happening physically with these strikes
Bernardo W. Lopes all I read was pressure, but yah how do people not think of that, big difference between throwing strikes at a head with nothing but air holding it in place
All it takes is one accurate elbow straight towards the ground to make a retarded person
The amount of times Big John says "i go" or "he goes" between 8:42 and 9:10 is absolutely mind boggling !
I totally understand why it's illegal cause I jumped to get a basketball and landed on a significantly bigger dudes head with my elbow once, he was out cold...
FierceDeityRick jump up and land on a guys head in mma, i dare you to try it..
Is the guy I'm doing this to a MMA fighter?
FierceDeityRick and that changes what?😂
The whole thing I was talking about was an accident btw lol not bragging...but in response to "and that changes what?" is everything I would rather fight a non trained fighter then a trained one lol deerrrr..
I'm saying you wouldn't be able to jump up in the air and land an elbow on someone's head in a fight, so your comment is irrelevant 😂
In this podcast Big John admits to telling the Fertitta brothers that paying fighters $1 million plus was a bad idea. He planted the seed that led to fighter pay issues that we currently hear about today. The fact he hasn't been called out on this is mind boggling.
When did Tommy Dreamer become a ref
“When the fuck you seen a clock on the ceiling?!” That line killed me
The elbows on the floor remind me of Conor vs Mendez and how herb told Mendez the elbows are legal
Yeah that’s what I was thinking of too😂
I still remember big john reffing the very first ufc events sporting the sick jogging pants and bobcat arms, living legend
So, it's settled, all the 12-6 illegal elbow crap is Lorenzo's fault.
Big Jon must guard the fountain of youth ....dude hasnt aged a day since 1992
Herb.... when in the fuck have you ever seen a clock on the ceiling!?!?
😂😂😂👍
*Big John “Lookit” McCarthy*
*what a swell guy*
He talks about it with such passion, it shows how much he cares for the sport and loves it.
Big John is the Neil Degrasse Tyson of MMA. He even sounds like him.
Rob Riggle should dress up as big Jon at a UFC event and pretend like he's going to officiate a fight.
He'd absolutely have to use his epic "POW!" a few times 😂😂
"HERB, WHEN IN THE FUCK HAVE YOU SEEN A CLOCK ON A CEILING" Hahahaha fucking dying at that
TIL Herb Dean has seen a clock on a ceiling.
9:01 This explains a lot about Mr Herb, I understand him now lol
I think the placement of an elbow or knee (or any strike) to the fontanelles (top and back of the head) should obviously be illegal, but the logic of 12-6 elbow makes little sense other than what Big John alluded: there might be some kind of medical legal liability.
I know I’m so late on this clip but his memory of each fight and what fight is related to the rule is incredible to me.
Honestly... big John, Herb, and Marc Goddard are some of the best referees in any sport. Big respect to them!
BreakBeatStu ...Herb is s lazy hack. Needs to retire.
Small amount of surface area of the elbow is what makes the force of the elbow so great. Isn't that what might cause the problem? A force concentrated on small surface area would do more damage than a higher force spread out.
McCarthy really knows his wrestling. Even uses old Catch wrestling lingo with "Spiking" and "Arches" etc.. A very rare breed these days, with all the clueless BJJ-fanboys running rampant on different organizations.
Out of all the fighters that were discussed dropping the 12-6 elbow, neither of them brought up when Jon Jones decimated Matt Hammil with the 12-6 and got disqualified which is jones only technical loss. That elbow is deadly idc what anyone says.
John looks like that cop from Hangover who yells "In the face! In the faaaace!"
Lol
Indeed
Not up in here!
Big John McCarthy should be commentating man he’s on the ball.💪🏾👍🏾
you can't heel kick someone 40 times in a row though...
A heel kick has many many more times the power that a 12 to 6 elbow has though. It’s indisputable that you can fuck someone up with a heel kick or spinning back kick way more than a 12 to 6 elbow strike for strike. besides If anybody lands even 20 unanswered 12 to 6 elbows the ref should be in jail
A good tae-kwon-doker can get a immediate knockout with a spinning heel/wheel. If your hitting someone with 40 elbows the ref should of already stopped it. And do u know how weak a 12-6 really is.
The sport is extremely fortunate to have had Big John there at those crucial moments in the early days..
Honest question.. Am I the only one that agrees with the 12 to 6 elbow rule? Imo its way more dangerous than the "regular" one because it works along side gravity being a really easy strike to put some serious power into with not much effort, also because its nearly impossible to defend yourself against the point of an elbow wich its a very small target to defend against and its rly easy to slide through your guard (because of the movement required to perform the "regular" elbow this doesnt happen), but most of all- because of the power in that strike: you can put an insane amount of power in that elbow ( gravity its rly in your favour here) and the area of contact is incredibly small, this is the same science behind breaking glass with a needle... so I would take my chances and say that a 12 to 6 elbow could pretty much equallize a head kick in terms of power and therefore would be like being kicked in the head while youre in the ground
Junkie Jesus my comparison would be standard elbows are shoulder and hip powered, a 12-6 is the same as a pull up,and a sit up combined. 12-6 will END most wrestling, bottom guard position is twice as good with 12-6. Side control would last fractions of what we see with 12-6. Maybe it shouldn't be illegal but this is SO STUPID about the brick thing. No one cares about a non moving object this isn't cult arts. Any thing grapple related standing or ground 12-6 is the end all best strike possible to throw from basically all positions. They wanna hype up with the punching machine, let's show a hook elbow then compare Jones vs hamil for example.
To add, a kick is far above the power. But the kick isn't used while your STUCK on the ground etc. Kicks take much more time to reach also. I'm not much for rules, think it degrades the arts. Jiu jitsu has become extremely limited due to no 12-6, no knees, no up kicking someone while they are above you in guard.
arizona tea I mostly agree with you and actually love the use of elbows as a technique, however when we go into if it is as powerful as a heel kick or a head kick, fighters and people that are inside the business like rogan say that it isnt, but I dont believe they think about the 12 to 6 elbow in a scientific way, a heel kick or a head kick may have more power going into the strike but the area of contact its still bigger than the point of your elbow, this means more dissipation of energy and less concentration of power so I would put my money on the university studies they talked about in the podcast showing exactly what Im saying in terms of power
Junkie Jesus hmm. Interesting. Your right the pin point hit is more damaging due to high concentration in a smaller area. But I feel like a elbow would break more bones, the kick will have far more internal damage especially to the head. They need to take like 10 guys of different size weight style etc and test it. They wanna compare someone hits "as hard as a Ford explorer going 20mph" but no testing on things the sport should thoroughly research for the future. My end point is, a 12-6 will do way way more then just cut your eyebrow like a hook elbow.
Jones wrecked hamil head immediately after his, but he throws A LOT of hook elbows with almost no comparison in damage their opponent can visually show.
Thanks for the debate buddy lot of good (elbow) points lol👍
I think you're somewhat confusing the concept of force/power and pressure. In terms of pressure, yes, a 12-6 elbow can be very dangerous, as it can hit with relatively high amount of force, even though less than a kick, but with a much smaller surface area, i.e., amount to a lot more pressure. And pressure makes the difference between breaking a bony surface or not or piercing the flesh or not piercing, as elbows themselves have already showed to cut extensively.
1- It's the same reason as to why you can lie down on a bed of nails: the force of your body into each nail is scattered throughout all of the area of the body, thereby reducing the pressure of each nail.
2 - The same reason why people use large surface footwear in the slow = increase the surface area --> reduce pressure of the feet in the snow ---> less pressure so you won't sink in the snow.
3 - Same reason as to why, theoretically, a woman's heels stepping on you, can amount to the same pressure as an elephant steping on you. Less force/weight (i,,e, a woman's mass times gravity) but througth a needle heel, a *VERY* small surface area. giganting amounts of pressure. You get the deal.
if Pressure = Force / Area, then, in the case of the 12-6 elbow, you can put all of your force into a very small surface area - the olecranon - that is the actual bony protrusion that is the "back" of elbow, and amount to great deals of pressure. Same concept as breaking a glass with a needle. Also, the frontal bone is relatively prone to fractures, given as it's flatter, just like Cyborg santos's frontal bone fractured and caved in after MVP kneed him in the forehead.
Now... is the amount of pressure that's generated by the 12-6 elbow significant? we don't now and it depends on skull structure and size of the person. But also not as simple as it being purely about Force or Powe, it.s about pressure too.
4 - hand fractures! Bear hands make contact with the knuckles, not a whole glove, thereby a much smaller surface area.Which is why gloves are used! With bare knuckles, the punches will actually have less force behind them and ability to cause concussion and brain damage, but the knucles can break a lot more easily, seeing as the only points of contact are the two small knuckles, not the area of a whole glove. They care about fighters not breaking hands! it's not actually to protect the head! same as headgear, it doesn't protect against concussive brain damage, quite the contrary. Joe actually talks about this extensively while saying gloved hands cause more brain damage, and he's right.
Sorry for the rant, but hopefully others will read it and find it helpful as well. I don't have an answer but i do agree with you in one way: this is not that clear cut conclusion.
Bernardo W. Lopes that's basically a pound per square inch type of thing right?? I usually see that unit of measure, and we can all agree whether you kick traditional or Thai (instep vs where shin and ankle meet) your elbow is prob 5x smaller or less compared to whatever contact you use on the kick so it's high force in a super tiny contact point. Some body kicks end up catching the 3/4 of the shin that's several inches in more then one direction.
Also your head gear comment, its 99% to reduce cuts and accidental head buts or elbows in sparring. It truly just reduces the swelling and cuts but your dome piece is still taking it all.
Should we #free12-6 ?!?
This guy needs to write a book. He had a front row seat to the beginning of a sport.
mr beard I’m recently getting into the UFC and MMA as a whole and these two alone have given me an insane amount of information, glad I found them both! A book would be super beneficial to new fighters and fans alike
It's not everyday that a new sport is created he should probably preserve his account for history n stuff. Think of all gladiators of Rome . They're story's are still alive in movies to this day. Who's gonna play big john in the movie lol. ......wait why isn't there a movie about the beginning of mma yet lol
Why haven't they uploaded the full podcast yet?
What are you talking about? It's uploaded.
Dan Maler - It is now, but this video was uploaded hours before the full podcast came out.
Soooooo.... the gravity in the elbow strike can be calculated, average arm, say 30 lbs... 9.8ms acceleration... a guess at max 100cm of travel... so gravity adds about 3 pounds max to the impact... of what is otherwise likely a strike with many dozens of pounds of force.
Big John McCarthy is like a real life Joe Swanson that can walk
I don’t know that I agree, the small surface area of the elbow coming down on a head isn’t the same as a whole heel or shin from a kick.
Plus the head doesn’t move freely with the force of the blow if it’s coming from 12 to 6.