A Look at Dragon's Teeth (Voyager)
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Opinionated Voyager Episode Guide looks at Voyager stumbling into trouble and accidentally causing a disaster, which Janeway quickly looks to blame on someone other than her. No, really.
Naomi's mom is the smartest character in Star Trek. She survived the entire run of Voyager by convincing the writers that she died at some point.
she pushed Carey in the path of that phaser blast
@@Deadxman616 Stupid Carey: going on an away mission with the important people, what could go wrong? He should have known better ...
Her actress's name is Nancy Hower, as in Hower you still alive??
@@lordmontymord8701: Ironically, he thought it'd be okay because Samantha survived the events of "Once Upon a Time".
A simple solution to the borg issue would be for Seven to say "Species believed to be extinct are considered irrelevant and all information related to them is removed from the collective's active memory unless considered useful. In this case it appears there was nothing the collective considered to be of value."
And just for fun she could say this with the guy in the room, right before Neelix's foolish comment, just to rub salt into the wound.
And after 5 seconds thought, you wrote a better explanation than a team of professional writers who spent days working on it could.
@@Here_is_Waldo I guess that's just another example of what passion can do compared to self-interest.
Brilliant and simple solution. And I agree with the others commenting on your comment. You wrote better than the so-called professional writers. Passion beats simple self interest
@@DaRealKakarroto The writer got their credit and their paycheck; I doubt they considered their self-interest extending beyond that. That wreckage that used to be continuity? That's somebody else's problem, and they've already painted that metaphorical mountain and flipped the switch.
@@Here_is_Waldo Who says they worked days on this? At least not on the Borg part, that seems like a throwaway-line ...
Janeway waking up a bunch of Nazi werewolves, and making a deal with them, then blaming others when it doesn't work out well. seems legit.
And the series portrays Janeway like she was in the right.
I'm going to head canon that that's the origin of that one guy from Helsing Ultimate now.
I wouldn't be surprised if Janeway is revealed as Donald Trump's great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great granddaughter.
@@horaciosi Once again she blames Seven for everything ... yes Captain, you yourself said that these people might need help - but Seven reanimating one of them? That's too far.
I vehemently disagree. The only side that commited (2) genocides is the alliance, they are space britain, conquerors and not nice but far less bad than slander says when looking at facts.
Fun fact: In Star Trek Online, the Vaadwaur *do* show back up again, and are, in fact, the primary antagonist of the Delta Quandrant story arc. And mechanically speaking, they're actually pretty nasty to fight.
Janeway: "Let's wake up your people!"
Also Janeway: "The *what* directive? Never heard of it."
Must have been one of the days where the Prime Directive doesn't count - like Omega Particle-Tuesday ...
Non-applicable here. The Prime Directive prohibits interact with less developed planets which had not yet discovered warp travel or subspace communication technology. The Vaadwaur invented warp drive and travelled through subspace long before the Federation existed.
In fact, Janeway _does_ apply the PD here when she refuses to share Federation photon torpedo tech with them.
@@SatoshiMatrix1: The Bajorans had invented space travel by the time of DS9: "The Circle", but Admiral Not That Chekote said the Prime Directive applied.
This really should have come up much more often on shows like Star Trek, the idea that there were some ancient civilizations that had interstellar travel since we barely invented the printing press. Sure we see a lot of primitive people over the course of the series, but interstellar species significantly older than humans happen only a few times, the borg, the traveler, the dinosaur people, I suppose you could say people like the Vulcans and Romulans have had space travel much longer, but I think lore wise they were maybe a century or two ahead of us discovering warp drive at best right?
IIRC, the Vulcan/Romulan split happened 2000 years ago, so they had FTL for quite a while.
@@JosephDavies interstellar travel and warp drive are not the same thing, given their 200 year life spans the Vulcans could afford to be patient and probably started venturing into space with sub-light travel, sort of like how the Bajorans managed to make it to Cardassia using a solar sail ship
@@wakeangel2001 True, and I'd have to rewatch to confirm if the method was specified. It's been a while and I don't recall if it was more specific than that.
There was also an extinct race in TNG that basically had Stargates. Iconians, I think? Also the Preservers, who were responsible for most of the big Trek races (and the huge number of humanoids).
There's not an idea good enough that Voyager can't mess it up.
They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity?
Further cements the idea that a Mirror Janeway would be a loved, celebrated and benevolent ruler.
Unlike how she is portrayed in Star Trek Online.
I'M WORKING ON IT OK JEEZE
Maybe Janeway being evil is a multiversal singularity like Primus always being the heart of Cybertron.
@@mikegates8993 Evil lurks within all people; at least the chance of it
The difference between mirror Janeway and regular universe Janeway is that mirror Janeway is deliberately malicious, and regular Janeway is incompetently malicious.
@@hariman7727 honestly, the fact that Mirror Janeway is aware of her own evil makes her better at being a good person.
One of my favorite Voyager episodes (despite Voyager's usual wasting perfectly good potential). Neelix is completely useless in this one. The people Voyager found were Military Forces and their families. The common person didn't survive, so the calmer and peaceful cultural forces were gone. So it was powder keg waiting to happen.
The Vauudwar (sorry for the spelling) and the Dinos were two of my favorite species from Voyager that didn't get nearly enough time on the show
Psycho Janeway always makes my day
My day isn't made until actual Janeway turns out to be _at least_ as bad as Chuck's psycho version.
@@boobah5643 Well like Chuck said one time, "normal" Janeway is even worse than his version: Evil Janeway at least has a reason for her crazy actions, while normal Janeway is written like an idiot a lot of times, while the writers frame her as being in the right ...
One of star tree's most Annoying loopholes.. "there's always a turncoat to to Betray his people", only having known our heros for a couple of days.👎🖖
Yeah it always used to really annoy me especially when the shows do it dozens of times. It's just lazy writing I think
@@jplonsdale7242 This is what happens when your guest star NPCs get run by guest 'players.' They side with everybody else at the table instead of staying in character.
It really wouldn't surprise me if this was a victim of the change from a two-parter story into a single episode. He was already the more reasonable one, and after spending some time with the crew and learning about them, seeing his own people and what they did from a distance, I could imagine a character arc where he comes to realize that his compatriots are doing the wrong thing. Sure, it's still a short time span, but it would have been a lot more believable if the story had time for those beats to breathe and grow naturally. That's obviously the intent here, but it's so rushed that it falls quite squarely into that trope.
Damn that Star Tree.
Now knowing that this was supposed to be a two-parter it makes at least some more sense. With more time you could show him changing his mind - and he could have different opinions than the military leaders anyway.
Even though i'm not really a fan of "Year of Hell" (except Janeways crazy behaviour), i think there they made it really believable that Obrist betrays Annorax: He and the rest of the crew (which we never saw) are tired of their Captain's obsession. Helping Tom to stop Annorax is more the ideal chance to escape the nonsense - it doesn't come from thin air.
So it can work ... but even then this shouldn't be used too often.
Thanks! I haven't seen Voyager in years but it's very nostalgic for me. I loved coming home from school back in the pre-Tivo days and seeing the out-of-order episode of the day. Tuvok was my favorite Voyager character. If you're still making these I'd love to see your take on any episode Q shows up in. Possibly my favorite character in all of television.
Thanks to everyone who replied. I'm getting them in messages but they aren't showing up for me to respond to them.
(15:24-15:33) One of the few times that "The Misadventures of the USS Reset Button" hinted at actual continuity and consequences, and it goes nowhere.
This fucking show....
The Star Trek online story does include these aliens.
@@hariman7727 Following up on Voyager AFTER the fact instead of during it. Typical 🙄
Is there a problem that Tom Paris can't solve?
Wait, let me try something.
*Tries to send Tom to The Kremlin*
No no no. Get Harry and Neelix working for the Russians.
Thanks Tom, glad you could solve world hunger and replace my cars manifold in time for the big race!
At first, I thought you mistyped "Krenim".
They could have just said that the Borg hadn't expanded into this area of space 900 years ago instead of saying that the Borg Collective was small back then.
Too be honest I never liked the idea of borg home space. I always thought of them like the aliens in Independence Day; locust like as arrive in a region of space, strip it of anything useful and move on.
It just so happened that they were in the delta quadrant over the four hundred or so years that the main Star Trek timeline is set.
Perhaps they started they started in the gamma or deep in the beta quadrant before moving into the delta 900 years ago
Yeah, but we needed to show how big the Vaadwaur-empire was - even if this Borg-story doesn't tell us anything and is completely useless ...
This reminds me of a much better episode of Stargate SG-1, The Other Side. The SG team discovers a civilization that offers technology that would win them the war with the Gou'ld, all they have to do in exchange heavy water to them for their force field that is keeping out their enemies. Danial has an issue with getting involved with a war they know nothing about, O'Neal thinks he is being foolish. Until it becomes increasingly clear that the people they are talking to are White Supremist who actually poisoned their own planet as a "final solution" and their enemy are the survivors who are trying to make them pay for what they did. In the end they decide to let the Space Nazis die, though there is some moral ambiguity. They may have deserved it, but SG-1 didn't gain the resources the earth needs to face the bigger threat of the Gou'ld and they led a civilization to ruin.
That sounds like an excellent dilemma story. I should watch that.
@@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999 Oh you really should: It's funny that SG-1 and Atlantis look like ... let's say "simpler" shows, where a small group saves Earth or the whole galaxy (or multiple galaxies) on a regular basis.
But there are a lot of episodes with similar ideas that are much more interesting and thought-out than their supposedly highbrow Star Trek-counterparts.
Funnily enough i really dislike Stargate: Universe, which looked like the grown-up version of SG - and took a lot of inspiration from BSG (even though i love BSG, but trying to cram it into SG was a bad idea).
Nobody looks dignified in the rain? What about Gene Kelly?
Never leave chuck
I heard the term "dragon's teeth" from Mass Effect where the Geth used these high-tech spikes, which they got from the Reapers to impale humans with and turn them into cyber-zombies called Husks.
Any time somebody familiar with the tale of the Golden Fleece sees a shortcut for getting troops, they'll borrow the "dragon's teeth" term.
I'd never realised Dragon's Teeth was originally supposed to be a 2-Parter. A lot of the quirks of the episode feeling rushed suddenly make sense. And is a microcosm of how badly managed Voyager was by executives.
I don't like everything you say, but your mutual loathing of Berman/Braga Trek tickles me some
tbf, I think the change to the Borg's history actually makes more sense than the idea that the Collective has been around for thousands of centuries. The Borg are habitually portrayed as nearly unstoppable and implacable, and, in the Delta Quadrant at least, face only a few major obstacles to their unrivaled expansion and interstellar dominance (e.g. the Voth, the Undine). To think that the Borg could be thousands of centuries old and yet still only control around 1/20th of the galaxy is difficult to buy for me. A younger history, to me, makes more sense given the rate of their expansion.
Maybe they had to spend a few centuries whittling down a few civilizations who were able to fight back or they ran into a few speedbumps like they did with the Federation that forced them to pull back and plan new tactics. We know there were other civilizations in the Delta Quadrant who were able to resist them for a while, like the civilization that one guy from the Hope and Fear was from.
Never gets old! ;)
Egad! Was almost every bad writing idea and bizzare dialog choice on Voyager directly the fault of behind-the-scenes mayhem and producer indisision?
Nope, a lot of time it's just the writers not being that good ...
Bad alien design for Vaadwaur, too busy and just feels like a person buried in prosthetics. Hey, Klingons with pointy chins and hair buns doing the Cardassian neck trick!
"We shouldn't have allied with them. We haven't seen the last of the Trabe."
"Vaadwaur."
"Yes, them, too."
At least not as bad as VOYs other discount-Klingons, the Kazon ...
@@lordmontymord8701 But the poor Kazon were once oppressed by the Trabe. Then again, would you want misogynist thugs as part your society if you could help it? It reminds me of Shah's Iran, brutal secret police that cracked down on dissent, but some of that dissent was worse than the Shah, as we found out when the thugs took over. The Ayatollahs didn't object to brutality, they objected to women's rights, freedom of religion and westernization.
Agree with this guy 👇
How many bomb-ass Voy concepts would have been amazing as two or more parters??
Maybe ... then again many of the two-parters they actually made weren't exactly great either. So there's a pretty big chance the writers would have just used the extra time for more nonsense 😉
I wonder if we'll see the Vaud'vaar again in Star Trek's future.
They do show up as major antagonists in Star Trek Online's second expansion, Delta Rising. It's decently entertaining, albeit a bit too reliant on "remember that?" nostalgia tying old unfinished plot threads together.
@@CaptainGCN A lot of STO relies on that, unfortunately.
@@CaptainGCN Vaadwaur, and they turn up in Star Trek Online. I like to joke that we spend most of the game cleaning up Janeway's messes
@@kevinramsey417does Ensign Munro from the Hazard Team make an appearance in STO?
@@kevinramsey417 considering Janeway left a trail of broken bodies, ruined civilizations, and more in her wake, that makes perfect sense.
This would've been better if it was a two parter ( I believe it was supposed to be but Berman nixed the idea )
That damn bastard. Took joy out of killing every good idea since at 1990.
Possibly before.
algorithm comment
As far as the show is concerned.
×remembers players whining about getting their asses kicked by vadwaur in STO×
Are you really telling me that everybody's dead?
Yes, everybody is dead, Gedron.
Like the child of an anti-vaxxer, the joke about Paris being a savant never gets old.
saleeee
12:10 Spin doctoring disabled ships funny
How bad were the Vaadwaur that the coalition against them was still guarding their homeworld nearly 1000 years after they seemingly exterminated them and reduced their planet into a radioactive wasteland? Were they masters of necromancy and the coalition were worried their leaders would rise as liches and unleash a zombie army after 1000 years or something?
We never see, all we know for sure is that they were conquerors and militarist (bad) but the alliance has now committed 2 genocides (way worse) and was helped by our crew (wtf)
Major, raise the last battalion from the dead!
Love the Red Dwarf reference!
The most unrealistic part of this review is that Janeway would shriek in horror at the idea of Torres masterbating. Janeway only shrieks when she needs to summon her soul-eating spider-apes to attack an orphanage that made fun of her.
I don't know: Even Crazy Jane has her limits - and looking at everything we know about Klingon sexuality i think even masturbation might involve a lot of broken bones and self inflicted wounds ...
@@lordmontymord8701
Crazy Janeway: heh. You call that masturbation? You know what we used to call that growing up? The first day of summer
Heh, i like it: This might be the only time in Old Trek where the German dubbing studio/TV channel didn't gave away the twist by creating a stupid new episode title - this time they made a mistake by just translating the O.G. one.
But having Gaul be played by an actor known to always playing a bad guy? No surprises here too ... Invite T-Bag to a party and you are alway fucked.
The only big surprise is that it's Neelix of all people is the first one who figures out the truth - again doesn't make the Starfleet officers look extremely competent. At least they didn't bring the Vaadwaur back as teased in the end. They could be as brutal as they want - a few hundred people with tech far behind anything everybody else uses shouldn't be a problem for the next millenium (on the other side we had idiotic concepts like the Son'a - so why not).
-Since my brother watched Red Dwarf, and not me (and he is unavailable), I had to google "Lister levels", LOL! Yeah, I have to say 800 years is a lot better than 3M! In that amount of time things can change so much that they might actually go back to the way they were. In a circling around back kinda way. Scary!
-Disable their ships, but keep them alive ... Maybe she figured that corporal death wasn't true death and that their souls still roamed free so that was good enough for her, right?
5:07 arent they breaking the 4th wall by like clipping through where the ships windows would be?^^
janeway voice: how sharper than a dragon's tooth it is to have a whiny crew...
This episode further confirmed how much the starship Voyager was a blight on the Delta quadrant.
They left so much damage in their wake, both to the quadrant itself and on a meta level.
Stargate: Atlantis had an episode where some of the human factions from the Pegasus galaxy put the main SGA-team on trial for all the times they made "tiny" mistakes (like being responsible for awakening not only one, but two major threads for humanity).
If this happened in VOY they would have needed a whole season for the trial and Janeway probably would have used her great "well i didn't have time for a opinion poll"-argument over and over again (the one she used when Arturis called her out for helping the Borg).
I mean, they saved a species from a genocide, of course that's what's framed as a bad thing here so... writing fail I guess.
Voyager...Space Seed...
Ah the episode where we are meant to think that genocide is good if its done to former conquerors. (The alliance against them commited a genocide, were it not for the hidden "dragons teeth" they would be extinct, and then our heros help them commit another genocide because "they are mean").
This is literally a case where the alliance is actually just worse.