My girlfriend is married to An undiagnosed narcissist. She brought his behavior to My attention about a year ago. She cusses about him to me but also fiercely defends him at the same time. She has Me feeling nuts because I don't know if i should agree or disagree, support or not support her. Is this behavior normal for a victim of narcissistic behavior?
Took me til 48 yrs old 4 yrs on off w narc single mom lomg distance most of it im still.angry, hurt even 6 months away this time last time refused hoover 3 wks ago called her out and was blocked...mutual block such a sneaky disgusting lil tramp
We’re always having to focus on the narcissist. Even after everything they’ve done, then we’re expected to forgive them. What about us? After having our lives robbed from us. Maybe for once we should think about ourselves and what we want. Because no one else is going to do that for us.
Well said.They are not in the focus.They shouldn't be.In our focus should be our self or god but definetly not them instead of our self or god.They want to be in our focus but that's very ignorant, they are not our soul or self or god, they cannot have that "position" in our lives.
It feels as though they are always the focus, even in recovery. I wish there was more support for us without always having to refer back to the narcissist.
@@Exiled.New.Yorker that's not true. Imo, forgiveness isn't something you do, or give someone, whether it's asked for, or not. It's a personal choice, and mindset. We don't forgive to absolve others, but to restore our own peace.
Untrue! the Narc in my life has mentioned tthe requirement to forgive them many times in the past. They actually accuse me of being unforgiving and so, everything the lack of relationship is MY fault.
I forgive MYSELF. For not leaving earlier. For not realizing earlier that I'm allowed to have needs. For not loving myself for many years. I am sorry, please forgive me, thank you, I love you.
Fellow psychologist here, though retired. I’m 30 years divorced from a malignant narcissist. I feel no need to forgive, forget, or indulge in revenge. I HAVE forgiven myself for taking 20 years to understand the futility of the relationship. Done and dusted.
I’m amazed at how professionals, like you and a social worker I know, are/were married to narcissists despite all of your education. I would think it would’ve protected you, but my counselor said professionals have little boundaries when it comes to their inner circle.
@@AlexBobalexRavenclawIt can happen to anyone.also to you.Because narcs know how to manipulate anyone.class, intelligence or inner circles are not making a difference to get manipulated by a Narc. So its the best to educate people about narc behaviour like dr Ramani does.I find dr.Ramani amazing!
In the end I do think it absolutely does come down to forgiving yourself for mistakes made while in the narcissistic fog. Once you are able to get out of that fog and really work this out (at least I have found), I don’t even need to have an opinion about “forgiving the narcissist” (and I don’t even want to spend my energy having that opinion). They are who they are. Likelihood of change is close to zero (if a true narcissist) so I just can’t see the point. I want to put my energy into creating a better life for myself.
My family constantly expects me to minimize abuse and forgive and forget for the sake of the family. It’s messed up. I will no longer be sacrificed to keep the family together. I matter too despite what they think. Thank you Dr Ramani ❤
I hate it when the narc or enablers shame me for bringing up the past as a reference point. I will never let anyone silence me again. Thank you Dr Ramani ❤
Thank you for calling the problem out dr Ramani. The narcissist isn’t truly sorry for their continuous maltreatment and expects forgiveness so that the abuse and exploitation may continue. We must be honest and it’s often impossible for us to have anything to do with the narcissist again, so reconciliation is out of the question and many people equate forgiveness with reconciliation which is not the case at all.
I agree that forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean reconciliation. One person said things about me behind my back a few years ago that were so horrendous that, though I wish her no harm, I never want to cross paths with her again. I'm sure that if she, or some outside party, insisted that I reconcile with her, I would end up getting painted as the villain of the story.
I can’t forgive myself for forgiving them in the first place. They put me through hell and still do. I’ve constantly been told to move on and forgive them, cause it’s only hurting me. Now they think they control my forgiveness since their gaslighting and manipulation no longer works. They don’t care if you forgive them, they just don’t want to deal with their shame over it and it’s the reason they say move on or get over it. Their sick self entitlement, is never ending.
I’ve always said “Forgiveness is a trick” and took a lot of heat for it. The only person you can truly forgive is yourself. I hope one day, folks will figure this out. **LIVE WITH IT! Live with what you’ve done.**
They can forgive themselves if they want or God can forgive them.They don't need our forgiveness.I think breaking the cycles and cutting the traumabonds are enough.They want always everything so quick. Forgiveness takes lifetimes it's not a must.Most of us have it on the basic level anyway.
Exactly! It's no one's business who you forgive or don't forgive. The colossal nerve of someone who thinks they should be privy to such private information. Eff them!
Many assume forgiveness means reconnecting with those who wronged you, forgetting their betrayal, and giving them infinite chances. I forgive myself for putting up with their abuse, fully accepting them for who they are and that they'll never change. I (eventually) cope by permanetly cutting them and their enablers out. I don't forgive nor forget how unsafe they made me felt. Nor do I believe them anymore. Being in a relationship of any kind with a narcissist is psychological rape. You may develop resilence and the fortitude overtime to move on but you'll never get the life back you once had before encountering the narcissist
Thank you for this Dr. Ramani. People seem to think I should forgive my mother after all the betrayal and harm she caused me because she now has Alzheimer's, but my heart is struggling to find the sympathy and compassion for her. I feel like she ruined my life on so many levels.
My half sister has gone no contact with her narcissistic mother. Her mother moved out of state to go stay with her other sister. Two weeks ago, The narcissist had an argument with the daughter she is living with. She got up in the middle of the night, laid down on the floor, and started screaming. She claimed that she fell and needed to be taken to the hospital. When the ambulance arrived, she claimed that her daughter was abusing her, and not feeding her. The argument was about her eating the family lunches out of the fridge without telling anyone. Her daughter's house has nanny cams everywhere. So they have video of her laying down on her own, and not falling. If they did not have video evidence of the narcissist staging her accident, the narcissist's daughter might have been arrested for elder abuse. If you have decided not to forgive narcissistic person, good for you. These people are straight up dangerous. I've left several jobs that were absolutely infested with them. I'm very assertive, and I'm not afraid of a goddamn thing. But when five people get together and accuse you of a crime, you're getting arrested.... Be careful out there and take this seriously.
You couldn't have said it any better these people can be catergorically dangerous particularly the malignant ones. It can be truly sobering to be adamant on your own position knowing you aren't being arrogant. After many years of being gas lit and swimming in self doubt and brain fog. Thank you for your insight !
Dr Ramani🎉❤ Thank You Once again for speaking reality and truth as to what it is like living with narcissists or in a narc system...I really needed these words today! I just went radio silent a week ago, no answering, no replying just silence...and I felt peace for the first time in so long. I was always expected to just take the abuse and look the other way.Ontop of lifelong abuse in a system.. They didn't even come to my child's (12) funeral and I was harped on and bullied for asking why my own family didn't come...their answer we didn't want to eat into our vacation time...excuse after excuse why I'm always singled out..why my sadness or feelings of hurt for being left out are not justified why it's ok to treat me as other, steal from me, betray me, lie to me...there will be no forgive only freedom...and the funny thing is since I stopped replying to them now theyre mad...they can just add it to the list then🎉
I listened to this one 3 times. I just went no contact with my narcissistic family. I’m in the process of being made the “bag guy” and shamed,… it’s making me feel so crazy. I really need this information to SINK IN.
Yes. The narcissists' bad behaviour gets lost in the ridiculous conversation about forgiveness. Yes, have compassion and understanding, but you're not their caregiver. Your job is to heal and prevent future nonsense with other human demons.
When we forgive the harmful behavior and yet continue in the line of fire; we have to get help, get out, or change our perspective. With narcissists, it cannot be about second or third chances, but rather focusing on OURSELVES; on self forgiveness and finding the healing and support we need.
In a Narcissistic family system, you will not escape the unjust blame & consequences for setting any boundary. If you make the decision to "go there", this answer to "That’s just the way they are" puts the responsibility back where it belongs, on the Narcissist. - "I have "forgiven" them only to be hurt again & again. I now forgive myself for tolerating it. Since they feel no responsibility to stop, I have no responsibility to subject myself to further harm."
My step mother (the most narcissistic person I’ve ever met) actually apologized for something but immediately said “but, I did what I did because you blah blah blah. “. The most backhanded insincere apology. Then she expected me to gush all over her thanking her for apologizing. Nope! Not going to happen. It wasn’t sincere and she’s burned me so many times over 44 years I just can’t give her that. And when I said I’m sick of these constant issues and asked her when this crap is going to stop, she gaslighted me as always.
👍 agreed with Dr. R.💐 on:..Many peoples can heal and move on WITHOUT FORGIVE OR EVEN HAVE ANY THOUGHTS OF THEIR PERPETRATORS and STILL HAVE HEALTHY LIFESTYLES..Period..
I tried to express myself to the person who hurt me and they said I needed therapy. He said, “Try finding some peace in your life.” I feel so angry and as if I have no room to forgive a person who can discredit my feelings and take no accountability for the hurt they caused. I’ve decided to refocus that energy on forgiving myself for the choices I made that lead me to where I am.
I think many people confuse forgiveness and reconciliation. It's not the same thing. You can forgive anyone you want. It's your personal business who you forgive......and who you don't. No one should ask you if you forgave so and so. Not their business. That's crossing a boundary. But forgiveness does not mean reconciling with that person. For example, you can forgive your abusive spouse and still file for divorce. You have to protect yourself. You do not have to reconcile with that person. It's a totally different thing.
Thank you for saying this. Forgiveness doesn’t mean reconciliation nor does it require a conversation. It’s about you, not them. You can forgive if you so choose to and move on without having any contact. This is how Psychology Today defines forgiveness. “Forgiveness is the release of resentment or anger. Forgiveness doesn’t mean reconciliation. One doesn't have to return to the same relationship or accept the same harmful behaviors from an offender.” It’s a personal choice not reconciliation.
i'd rather let go than forgiving, it doesn't feel right to me to forgive somebody who doesn't repent.... my body doesn't agree with that and feels tense, letting go on the contrary makes my body feel at peace. Cos with the word forgiving, the attention is turned towards the person who abused us and somehow makes it "not that bad", which doesn't occur with letting go, i feel totally free from any attachment and obliged to anything towards this person. If the person would repent though and IF it feels right to me, I could forgive. I feel that there much more abuse with forgiveness than confusion with forgiveness.... Many spiritual or religious or friends or therapists push forgiveness onto vicitms as if it would heal everything, too much fake forgiveness too, not to mention the abusers pushing to be forgiven... why would they do that then if it had no positive consequences to them?
I was just journaling about this today. Im not forgiving this narc. Its not about holding a grudge. Its about recognizing the corrupt playing field this guy plays on and avoiding it like the plague. Forgiveness has nothing to do with them. It's about forgiving myself for abandoning myself on behalf of a complete a hole. Im trying to process that but its difficult. I was 100% duped. For years. Part of me feels foolish. Niave? Maybe so. But i also recognize the depth of the manipulation and lies were far more than anything ive ever experienced. Spread on so outrageously thick. Blatant lies. Straight to my face. Look me in the eye and make life promises all the while knowing he would not or could not deliver on them. Watching me run off with his words...sharing ideas about our future. I often try to think about what it would feel like/where id have to be emotionally to lie to anyone like that. Where would my intent be coming from. Ive determined it would be based on such bitter disrespect and disregard; blantly hurting someone. Knowing you're doing it. Watching them respond as they believe you. People who have not experienced this can think i'm over emotional or not letting go or whatever. Truth is i'm in disbelief, trying to wrap my brain around this narc way of thinking. Ive asked God to walk with me as I heal...surround me in his light...will be between me and my higher power. We will create a safe internal space to work on healing together. I pray God shines his healing light on the parts of my soul dirtied/damaged/shamed by the narc. God will make me whole. Flowers and peace will reside there again. Enough distance away from this weirdo will help heal me and thats my #1 priority. God will deal with the narc. If you were in a war and got shot, after triage or surgery or whatever would you go walk out on that field again to offer the guy who shot you forgiveness? No f'ing way...because he doesnt give a crap about forgiveness. He wants to destroy you and win the war. These people are so unconsciously and intensely pissed off. Stay far away. Turn your back and heal yourself. Get your strength back. God will handle them.
I'm only forgiving those who will take accountability and will put in the work to make themselves a better person through therapy. I will not forgive people who fall into religion. My peace of mind is too important to me!
One of the biggest hurts is being made to feel crazy as a way to deflect from the narc abuse. Not engaging in it nor tolerating it anymore. Thank you Dr Ramani ❤
I got some clarification for myself about this issue: I forgive also for my own sake. I can move on, leaving the judgment to someone else, God. I can still feel hurt. And there is no need to tell the narc. I still grey rock. But I can move on free and not tied down with feelings of revenge.
Thank you for validating this! So many people, including some professionals, tell you that you have to forgive to move on. Nope. Forgive myself, yes. Forgive narcy; that's between him and God.
I keep seeing this comment but…That’s really nice but when you have children with a narcissist you can’t cut ties with them because the children are in the middle.
@@MacJank7 I have seven children with the narcissist. As well as seven grandchildren. I didn’t say anything about cutting ties. I said I do not have to forgive.
@@shinykazzadragon I was not pointing fingers, I was making a general statement. Why the sarcasm or are we having misunderstandings based on reading text with no voice inflection like you get when having a face to face conversation?
@@MacJank7 Woah! You keep attributing things to me I do not say, or intend. Stop it. I said I did not say anything about cutting ties, and said I had children with a narcissist. What are you interpreting? I'd appreciate it if you stop doing what you're doing.
Forgiveness in this case is based on guilt, which indicates that you feel YOU did something wrong when you know you didn't. So sometimes it's okay to not forgive.
GREAT video! Coming from a narcissistic family and years of narcissistic alcoholic abuse, growing up, I struggled for so long, trying to forgive, and realizing that I am unable to do it myself I’m glad to know that it can be OK not to forgive those who were narcissist or enabler’s. Thanks, once again for all of your videos and helpful suggestions and advice.
It's so controlling, that I cannot even say what I'm feeling writing my soul. Mercy oh my Lord❤ I can only say I've honest thing. You perfectly described the whole mind blowing never ending sick cicle. I wish they cure their ways. Yet line though said. There's no cure for narcissistic behavior.
I have 💯 been branded as the problem for speaking up and exerting boundaries, and not wanting repeatedly unapologetically abusive narcissistic family members in my life. It’s so messed up. It makes me sad because I don’t know how to be with my family much anymore. They are all enablers and flying monkeys. Not many people understand. I’m met with so much shame blame gaslighting and pressure to ‘forgive’ no matter what awful thing they do. But I kinda don’t care anymore. I matter too. It’s my choice. Prioritizing my safety and health. Thank you Dr Ramani ❤
I have done things a completely different way 😂 I was married for 32. Since we were 17. When I found out in October he was cheating again I was done. I kicked him out. I deleted him and every family member he has out of my phone and blocked all of them on social media. Since then we no longer talk at all. If we have to talk about finances we go through a third party. I have chosen to forgive him but I will NOT forget or ever allow this to happen to me again. I chose to forgive him for my own self. I don’t want to carry anything that happened between us around any longer. Forgiving has help me to let go. I still have LOTS of healing to do. You have helped me so much Dr. Ramani and I’m so grateful for you!! ❤
It’s been over 30 years since I divorced the narc. Everything you are saying is true about the backlash you get for not forgiving. I have no need nor desire to forgive him. God knows who and what he is and I feel God will take care of him one day, however, that may be. About 15 years ago it was rammed home to me just un-sorry he was for all the damage he did. Which of course made me darn happy. I never forgave him. It just made me want to make sure I never do.
Forgiveness is only for yourself, not anyone else. As long as you haven't forgiven someone it's one more little thorn in your side that is invisible to anyone but you. You don't have to listen to anyone about how to forgive. Never speak to the narcissist again. Withdraw your compassion and empathy, whatever you have to do, but forgive in secrecy, inside, for yourself.
How do you forgive the unforgivable behavior that will never change? Unfortunately narcissists do not mellow and get nicer as they age. They only become worse, especially with dementia or Alzheimer’s. The damage becomes more hurtful and is unending. My covert narcissist mother is more vicious than ever with age as she is no longer able to hide or pretend as easily. The little hope I had of a pleasant loving relationship at the end is gone. It is soul shattering to deal with and accept. I’ve had to go gray rock to survive. My heart goes out to all who have had to deal with narcissism and survive. The damage cannot be in done but you can forgive yourself and find a measure of peace and contentment. Grace and peace to all and especially Dr Ramani for her great heart and understanding.
I think we should stop saying forgiveness because it's misunderstood. We only need to forgive ourselves for thinking the past can be any different. Indifference of that person and forgetting they exist and not letting them live rent free in our head so we can move on fully. You don't have to forgive what they did.
Forgiving is not like "Hey, let's forget about that, everything is fine", it should be more like "Hey, I don't wanna hold any grudges, but don't do that again, I'll be on the watch", and not only for narcissists, for everyone.
Forgiving narcissist means far more than 5 billions of people around the world are gonna live in misery for the rest of their life. Just imagine how many true talented people who are not able to grow at their fullness.
Brilliant. One of the best Forgiveness videos so far. Seeing and understanding the clinical results of forgiving a Narcissist is a powerful tool in seeing that Forgiveness is problematic in Narcissistic relationships. We must keep the spotlight on their unchanging behavior.
I've learned from hearing from others in this comments section that the definition of forgiveness is subjective, and not helpful to a general audience. Also, when it comes to people who will never change their abusive behavior, forgiveness seems like a futile exercise as long as one remains in a relationship with the abusive narcissist.
This hit home. Left spouse in December, barely spoke with him for 2 months after. He claimed he’s doing therapy, Alanon, and he’s accountable to poor behavior. So I have been entertaining idea of returning. NO!! Trying to forgive so we can be together!! When he’s clearly not accountable, it’s leaking out in his comments and behavior. My therapist has been really hard on me-thank God!! I have needed someone in my face telling me the truth because he’s so good at what he does.
YES SPOT ON ! So well said Dr Ramani, thank you for calling this right out.. no oppressive victimhood for me anymore! YOU.. can't forgive something that has somehow killed itself already off long, long ago! May it be a self empowering learning curb for us all who have just had ENOUGH of the continuous regurgitation coming from them over and over again!
I felt so validated with this video. Finally I was given permission to not forgive. Then the more I thought about it I had a huge AHA! moment that I am still processing. I needed someone to give me “permission”. Wow! It was in that moment that I realized that my power, my agency, my authentic self had been totally stripped away piece by piece, over the many years of being in the narcissistic relationship. I needed someone to “give me permission”! I am learning that I have the power, I have the right to say yes or no to whatever comes my way. I choose to not forgive. Yay for me! Thank you Dr. Ramani.
When someone tries to manipulate you with forgiveness, ask, "do you have something to confess so that I can forgive it?" they'll go to hel1 where they belong
Acknowledgment is more effective than forgiveness when dealing with a narc. E.g. I acknowledge that what that person did was not okay. I will hold on to that knowing. Not seeking revenge or anything but carry on living a reasonable life.
@@corichang yes. And I acknowledge that they can't do better. I acknowledge I have to find relationships that are better, that are between people where the given and take is equal, where personal boundaries are indisputable, where helping each other means both sides. I acknowledge that in narcissistic relationships people are depleted, disrespected, abused and humanity's dark side is so prevalent. The opposite is true between people with healthy relationships. Thriving comes from supportive systems. Not corrupt systems. In supportive, healthy systems you can find the love in humanity. Narcissism is the dark side.
Given that narcissistic people tend to get into positions of power and also tend to write narratives that suits them. I think there is a possibility that forgiveness has been weaponized and used as another tactic by such people to suit their wants, whims and needs regardless of other people's.
Forgiveness is NOT reconciliation. I have forgiven by not letting the narcissist and flying monkeys occupy my mind. But I have also stayed away to put an end to the abuse so I can heal. And I've cut off anyone who doesn't respect my position. At 60, I'm finally at peace.
i forgave only bc i was super toxic as well. i was codependent, easily triggered, emotionally disconnected, and uncomfortable with intimacy. i stayed far too long and i still dont know what all really happened even though i know and accept what i did wrong. i will probably never fully know and im ok with that. any forgiveness does not mean someone is welcome in my life any further than is necessary. maybe its more like i am forgiving myself for my part in that disaster of a relationship. anyways, love your work dr ramani! ❤
I have always said that forgiveness is the wrong idea when it comes to moving on psychologically from narcissistic abuse. Once you become indifferent to the past abuse is when you truly move on. You don't forgive mental abuse ever.
Mine just keeps saying “move on already”… we have four children and he abused me physically , got caught , did the anger classes only to sexually exploit me four years later ! It woke me up , but he has two of my children saying mom is stuck in “ victimhood”…. HELL NO. I can’t move on , I must carry the harm and integrate it into my being and live with it . I should be allowed to heal at my pace . Now I face a custody hearing for 16 year old daughter . ??? Really ??? How do you forgive or move on from someone who keeps coming for your soul . ??
Radical acceptance is healthy. Forgiveness is neither nor. It's deeply personal. Had a chat with a friend just this morning, how we're both effed up in many respects because our similar experiences. Except, we're probably becoming far healthier on our respective journeys than a lot of people who've never experienced these dynamics. My dad, and other culprits aren't in my head so much now. When they do pop up, I usually give them a 2 finger salute. To me, that's healing - not allowing them to mine my mind anymore ❤
Toxic forgiveness is like spending above your means so everyone in your group looks richer than anyone is. It upholds a toxic communal narrative, blurs toxic collective behavior & supplies toxic positivity to the group @ the expense of the one forgiving. Any choice to forgive must involve a better forgiveness, one with a true assessment of costs & means.
I’m breaking down after listening to this because a couple weeks before my sister assaulted me due to her gf getting into her head about me we had finally found solid ground for the first time in 3 years (since her and her gf got together). She was sobbing as she told me that she thought she had lost me. I immediately accepted her apology and told her she would never lose me no matter what, we had gone through so much in our childhood. Her gf has convinced her that I failed her for not stepping up to the plate like she does. Although we were both just kids, they’re adults that can advocate for their needs. I had more on my plate than her gf could imagine and she refuses too because in her eyes anyone that gets remotely close to my sister is public enemy #1. We had the tightest bond to the point where everyone around admired that about us. Im breaking down because weeks after we hashed things out she assaulted me, accused me of some vile things an old fake friend had told her. Assaulted me, got arrested, then filed a restraining order against me out of revenge for her arrest.Now I know for sure forgiveness is no longer an option. That doesn’t make me the bitter one, I don’t think she’ll ever fully understand how much this hurts me.. I need to love myself and protect myself even if it’s against the person that meant the most to me. I forgive myself for refusing to make any sort of amends in the future. I hope down the line she realizes what her gf has truly done to our family and heals from it, but she’ll have to do that without me…
I also needed to hear this today. Totally agree. Dr. Ramani, I've gone through life fearing with good reason to fear. I need a moment to figure out words. Concern, if I give examples. Thank you, for allowing this information available to the public
No examples. This is my input: Forgiving isn't the solution, especially, if the person doesn't understand what they did wrong. Handing the pain/ sorrow over to the higher power to save your own soul is best, which I believe, it's what Dr. Ramani calls "Radical Acceptance."
Like anything, forgiveness should be earned. As long as they're harming someone they haven't earned forgiveness. Stop hurting people, then ask for forgiveness, and don't expect a yes.
I proposed to my 6 year girlfriend and even though she said "yes" in what I thought was a beautiful moment she called me that night crying that she didn't understand why she felt so bad about my proposal, about why I didn't make a speech about why I wanted to marry her, why I didn't kneel properly, why I didn't do it in another place. This has broken my heart and told her i cant marry her now, i'm kind of lost now.....
Just last year my relationship ended and ive struggled for years with forgiveness (what it is, how it works) even though i grew up going to church, the topic wasnt talked about much in detail from what i can remember. Now ive learned that i can give myself the empathy, compassion and understanding i so willingly gave to him to help my life and see past it all. Its still a process and i do have my days but ill get there
As someone who has always struggled with this, one of the best lessons I’ve ever learned was from a Catholic Preist and mentor of mine. He taught me that forgiveness does NOT mean you need to let someone back into your life. It does not mean you need to be in a relationship with them or even be friends with them, or have any contact at all. It really means instead to take that justifiable anger, energy, and hurt and begin to heal and let go of that attachment you have to this person. He explained that forgiving them would mean seeing how very sad it must be to live in such a miserable, hateful, and evil way where the only thing that gives them temporary relief is causing pain and suffering to their victims. It’s accepting that they are sick, they will never change, and the best thing you can do is pray for them from afar - but definitely never let them into your life! I definitely think it is so easy and often misunderstood that forgiving someone means being with them or around them, so I thought his perspective was amazing!
Working on forgiveness has helped my healing and growth process immensely. However, I set boundaries, follow through with consequences, and eliminate toxic people from my life when possible. Forgiveness has given me strength and well-being. I do not forget the abuse or continue to be around those who are abusive, while working on being a better person myself.
Dear Doctor, I feel like you're talking right to me in my home. I can't tell you how I needed these reassuring words. As a child I forgave so many times, because we need our parents. As an adult I continued to forgive, but when I tried to set boundaries I was immediately called unforgiving, difficult, etc. Recently my in-laws have come at me full force about forgiveness and they just won't stop (because I'm five years nc now with my parents). It's really harassment, and I finally blocked them. Why do people never focus on the abuser's bad behavior? Why constantly blame the victim? I'm so tired. It's hard to find some supportive and caring about how I'm being treated.
I am convinced that if people had good parents, especially a good mother, they can’t even fathom what we have gone through. I’m not even going to bother talking to my siblings about it anymore. I asked for help with some of the burden but only one helped me. Then they say smile and keep doing the work. They say set boundaries, which is a little hard when I did and you all said oh you gotta still go see her, you know she is old, just do this for a couple more years. Your her daughter, I am at the point where I am just, do you hear yourselves. I have one sister in law who went no contact. I know she gets it. I have another one who I think gets it. The rest don’t get it. I gotta do what works for me.
I have learned to respond by saying, “I have forgiven, and now I am learning to stop normalizing bad behavior. There is nothing more that I will say on the subject."
Narcs are people who believe they're emotionally "starving" and ask everyone around them to constantly feed and forgive them. I've recently stopped feeding and forgiving my narc friends, family, and partner, and the results have been eye-opening.
People marry forgiveness with allowance way too much. When you feel moved to forgive, forgive. Let the grudge go. Let your heart be set free. HOWEVER, Set the boundary. Hold the fort. Burn the bridge. You can forgive someone and you can simultaneously release the relationship and draw the line. Cut off the branches as well if you must. They can call you unforgiving all the want. I did forgive. I just also drew the line.
Thank you for this video. It was so timely. The issue of forgiveness came up in my therapy session this morning, and it really stuck in my throat! I have attempted forgiveness before with my parents, especially my mother, and it worked temporarily, but then went back to the default. You were able to articulate why forgiveness is difficult, if not impossible, in some cases. Especially in situations, there is no redemption, and the perpetrators continue to hurt you over and over and over again. I have a lot to think about over the coming days and weeks. 🤔
I love the Dr.’s videos & respect her work. So much so that I wrote my own books about my own experiences. But, the “forgiveness “ part is where I see a “kink” 😅. We can forgive without allowing those ppl back in our lives. Forgiveness doesn’t mean taking them back, but it releases us from internal resentment & anger. Narcissists don’t change. They are devils. We don’t take them back.
Yes and thank you. Troweled on top of all this as well, for me, is the fact that he has NEVER ONCE offered forgiveness of me, for my past failings (I say past, because unlike him, I've changed my behavior). It's always HIM alone who deserves forgiveness.
You don’t forgive people who still intend on hurting you. You forgive yourself for expecting them to not hurt you in the first place.
So true
This!!
I learnt to forgive myself fir forgiving him.
My girlfriend is married to An undiagnosed narcissist. She brought his behavior to My attention about a year ago. She cusses about him to me but also fiercely defends him at the same time. She has Me feeling nuts because I don't know if i should agree or disagree, support or not support her. Is this behavior normal for a victim of narcissistic behavior?
Life's tragedy is that we get old too soon and wise too late.
It’s never ever too late. Don’t give up
It is the tragedy that humankind underestimates the evil in human
Took me til 48 yrs old 4 yrs on off w narc single mom lomg distance most of it im still.angry, hurt even 6 months away this time last time refused hoover 3 wks ago called her out and was blocked...mutual block such a sneaky disgusting lil tramp
We’re always having to focus on the narcissist. Even after everything they’ve done, then we’re expected to forgive them. What about us? After having our lives robbed from us. Maybe for once we should think about ourselves and what we want. Because no one else is going to do that for us.
Well said.They are not in the focus.They shouldn't be.In our focus should be our self or god but definetly not them instead of our self or god.They want to be in our focus but that's very ignorant, they are not our soul or self or god,
they cannot have that "position" in our lives.
So right!
It feels as though they are always the focus, even in recovery. I wish there was more support for us without always having to refer back to the narcissist.
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
Like I said before…..
I am sick of people telling me to forgive the narcissist, they didn’t live with the devil for 30 years 🙅♀️
Lol, but isn't there a scripture somewhere that says we're even suppose to forgive him?😏
He'd surely love that!
Exactly! No mercy !
I call bullshit on forgiveness.
I agree with you completely!!!
Narcs don't feel they need to be forgiven. Everything is always the victim's fault.
Truth
Narcs don't, but their enablers (fans) do
You cant give forgiveness unless its asked for.
@@Exiled.New.Yorker that's not true. Imo, forgiveness isn't something you do, or give someone, whether it's asked for, or not. It's a personal choice, and mindset. We don't forgive to absolve others, but to restore our own peace.
Untrue! the Narc in my life has mentioned tthe requirement to forgive them many times in the past. They actually accuse me of being unforgiving and so, everything the lack of relationship is MY fault.
I forgive MYSELF. For not leaving earlier. For not realizing earlier that I'm allowed to have needs. For not loving myself for many years. I am sorry, please forgive me, thank you, I love you.
Great mantra. I love it
❤
that' s exactly what I do 🙂- with the same Hooponopono 'Mantra' ❤
That is the hardest thing to forgive. Truly.
I’ve never forgiven my abusers, and I never will. But, more often than not I go through the entire day, without ever thinking about their existence.
THATS recovery
Fellow psychologist here, though retired. I’m 30 years divorced from a malignant narcissist. I feel no need to forgive, forget, or indulge in revenge. I HAVE forgiven myself for taking 20 years to understand the futility of the relationship. Done and dusted.
I don’t feel anything, that happened when my father got ill and died and she decided not to tell me.
I’m amazed at how professionals, like you and a social worker I know, are/were married to narcissists despite all of your education. I would think it would’ve protected you, but my counselor said professionals have little boundaries when it comes to their inner circle.
@@AlexBobalexRavenclawIt can happen to anyone.also to you.Because narcs know how to manipulate anyone.class, intelligence or inner circles are not making a difference to get manipulated by a Narc. So its the best to educate people about narc behaviour like dr Ramani does.I find dr.Ramani amazing!
In the end I do think it absolutely does come down to forgiving yourself for mistakes made while in the narcissistic fog. Once you are able to get out of that fog and really work this out (at least I have found), I don’t even need to have an opinion about “forgiving the narcissist” (and I don’t even want to spend my energy having that opinion). They are who they are. Likelihood of change is close to zero (if a true narcissist) so I just can’t see the point. I want to put my energy into creating a better life for myself.
The letting go feels wonderful.
My family constantly expects me to minimize abuse and forgive and forget for the sake of the family. It’s messed up. I will no longer be sacrificed to keep the family together. I matter too despite what they think. Thank you Dr Ramani ❤
No repentance? No forgiveness.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^
AMEN!!!
Narcissistic people robbed me of so much...they certainly not getting my forgiveness as the cherry on top!😊
I hate it when the narc or enablers shame me for bringing up the past as a reference point. I will never let anyone silence me again. Thank you Dr Ramani ❤
Thank you for calling the problem out dr Ramani. The narcissist isn’t truly sorry for their continuous maltreatment and expects forgiveness so that the abuse and exploitation may continue. We must be honest and it’s often impossible for us to have anything to do with the narcissist again, so reconciliation is out of the question and many people equate forgiveness with reconciliation which is not the case at all.
I agree that forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean reconciliation. One person said things about me behind my back a few years ago that were so horrendous that, though I wish her no harm, I never want to cross paths with her again. I'm sure that if she, or some outside party, insisted that I reconcile with her, I would end up getting painted as the villain of the story.
I can’t forgive myself for forgiving them in the first place. They put me through hell and still do. I’ve constantly been told to move on and forgive them, cause it’s only hurting me.
Now they think they control my forgiveness since their gaslighting and manipulation no longer works.
They don’t care if you forgive them, they just don’t want to deal with their shame over it and it’s the reason they say move on or get over it. Their sick self entitlement, is never ending.
I’ve always said “Forgiveness is a trick” and took a lot of heat for it. The only person you can truly forgive is yourself. I hope one day, folks will figure this out.
**LIVE WITH IT! Live with what you’ve done.**
They think that I have forgiven and forgotten. But I haven't. They don't have to know about it.
They can forgive themselves if they want or God can forgive them.They don't need our forgiveness.I think breaking the cycles and cutting the traumabonds are enough.They want always everything so quick.
Forgiveness takes lifetimes it's not a must.Most of us have it on the basic level anyway.
Exactly! It's no one's business who you forgive or don't forgive. The colossal nerve of someone who thinks they should be privy to such private information. Eff them!
I forgive myself for believing that I somehow caused or deserved the narcissistic abuse. ❤
I think this yellow dress is quite lovely on you, very spring! 💐🌺
Many assume forgiveness means reconnecting with those who wronged you, forgetting their betrayal, and giving them infinite chances. I forgive myself for putting up with their abuse, fully accepting them for who they are and that they'll never change. I (eventually) cope by permanetly cutting them and their enablers out. I don't forgive nor forget how unsafe they made me felt. Nor do I believe them anymore. Being in a relationship of any kind with a narcissist is psychological rape. You may develop resilence and the fortitude overtime to move on but you'll never get the life back you once had before encountering the narcissist
Thank you for this Dr. Ramani. People seem to think I should forgive my mother after all the betrayal and harm she caused me because she now has Alzheimer's, but my heart is struggling to find the sympathy and compassion for her. I feel like she ruined my life on so many levels.
Dr. Ramani, what a beautiful dress you have on. You are beautiful inside and out. Thank you for caring for and wanting the best for all of us
Thank you ❣. Forgive YOURSELF. For all the flic-flacs you did to remain 'safe'. You're way safer now.
I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.
Maya Angelou
EXACTLY 💯! Thank you so much for this...
I can forgive, but still not have a relationship with them. Thanks so much for this.
My half sister has gone no contact with her narcissistic mother. Her mother moved out of state to go stay with her other sister. Two weeks ago, The narcissist had an argument with the daughter she is living with. She got up in the middle of the night, laid down on the floor, and started screaming. She claimed that she fell and needed to be taken to the hospital. When the ambulance arrived, she claimed that her daughter was abusing her, and not feeding her. The argument was about her eating the family lunches out of the fridge without telling anyone.
Her daughter's house has nanny cams everywhere. So they have video of her laying down on her own, and not falling. If they did not have video evidence of the narcissist staging her accident, the narcissist's daughter might have been arrested for elder abuse.
If you have decided not to forgive narcissistic person, good for you. These people are straight up dangerous. I've left several jobs that were absolutely infested with them. I'm very assertive, and I'm not afraid of a goddamn thing. But when five people get together and accuse you of a crime, you're getting arrested.... Be careful out there and take this seriously.
You couldn't have said it any better these people can be catergorically dangerous particularly the malignant ones. It can be truly sobering to be adamant on your own position knowing you aren't being arrogant. After many years of being gas lit and swimming in self doubt and brain fog. Thank you for your insight !
This is a real thing. My Aunt has staged a few incidents that included an ambulance. It’s a dangerous game!
Dr Ramani🎉❤ Thank You Once again for speaking reality and truth as to what it is like living with narcissists or in a narc system...I really needed these words today! I just went radio silent a week ago, no answering, no replying just silence...and I felt peace for the first time in so long. I was always expected to just take the abuse and look the other way.Ontop of lifelong abuse in a system.. They didn't even come to my child's (12) funeral and I was harped on and bullied for asking why my own family didn't come...their answer we didn't want to eat into our vacation time...excuse after excuse why I'm always singled out..why my sadness or feelings of hurt for being left out are not justified why it's ok to treat me as other, steal from me, betray me, lie to me...there will be no forgive only freedom...and the funny thing is since I stopped replying to them now theyre mad...they can just add it to the list then🎉
I listened to this one 3 times. I just went no contact with my narcissistic family. I’m in the process of being made the “bag guy” and shamed,… it’s making me feel so crazy. I really need this information to SINK IN.
Take my advice and run, don't just walk, away and never look back.
Yes. The narcissists' bad behaviour gets lost in the ridiculous conversation about forgiveness.
Yes, have compassion and understanding, but you're not their caregiver. Your job is to heal and prevent future nonsense with other human demons.
Getting back my empathy was so much more healing to me than forgiveness.
When we forgive the harmful behavior and yet continue in the line of fire; we have to get help, get out, or change our perspective. With narcissists, it cannot be about second or third chances, but rather focusing on OURSELVES; on self forgiveness and finding the healing and support we need.
In a Narcissistic family system, you will not escape the unjust blame & consequences for setting any boundary. If you make the decision to "go there", this answer to "That’s just the way they are" puts the responsibility back where it belongs, on the Narcissist. - "I have "forgiven" them only to be hurt again & again. I now forgive myself for tolerating it. Since they feel no responsibility to stop, I have no responsibility to subject myself to further harm."
My step mother (the most narcissistic person I’ve ever met) actually apologized for something but immediately said “but, I did what I did because you blah blah blah. “. The most backhanded insincere apology. Then she expected me to gush all over her thanking her for apologizing. Nope! Not going to happen. It wasn’t sincere and she’s burned me so many times over 44 years I just can’t give her that. And when I said I’m sick of these constant issues and asked her when this crap is going to stop, she gaslighted me as always.
👍 agreed with Dr. R.💐 on:..Many peoples can heal and move on WITHOUT FORGIVE OR EVEN HAVE ANY THOUGHTS OF THEIR PERPETRATORS and STILL HAVE HEALTHY LIFESTYLES..Period..
I think forgiveness is stupid. A technique, a scam thrown out there by abusers to keep a victim in play.
I used to get so angry at myself for my responses to the abuse. Ive forgiven me, not him. Because I deserve it, he does not.
I 100% agree with you. The things that have happened, for me, are unforgivable. Move on.
I tried to express myself to the person who hurt me and they said I needed therapy. He said, “Try finding some peace in your life.” I feel so angry and as if I have no room to forgive a person who can discredit my feelings and take no accountability for the hurt they caused. I’ve decided to refocus that energy on forgiving myself for the choices I made that lead me to where I am.
I think many people confuse forgiveness and reconciliation. It's not the same thing. You can forgive anyone you want. It's your personal business who you forgive......and who you don't. No one should ask you if you forgave so and so. Not their business. That's crossing a boundary. But forgiveness does not mean reconciling with that person. For example, you can forgive your abusive spouse and still file for divorce. You have to protect yourself. You do not have to reconcile with that person. It's a totally different thing.
Excellent point. We have some very wise people in the comments!
Thank you for saying this. Forgiveness doesn’t mean reconciliation nor does it require a conversation. It’s about you, not them. You can forgive if you so choose to and move on without having any contact.
This is how Psychology Today defines forgiveness.
“Forgiveness is the release of resentment or anger. Forgiveness doesn’t mean reconciliation. One doesn't have to return to the same relationship or accept the same harmful behaviors from an offender.”
It’s a personal choice not reconciliation.
@@LDR411 That's so awesome that is on their website! Perfect place to put it! Thanks for letting me know♥
@@redlikewineagain697 - You’re Welcome ☺️.
i'd rather let go than forgiving, it doesn't feel right to me to forgive somebody who doesn't repent.... my body doesn't agree with that and feels tense, letting go on the contrary makes my body feel at peace. Cos with the word forgiving, the attention is turned towards the person who abused us and somehow makes it "not that bad", which doesn't occur with letting go, i feel totally free from any attachment and obliged to anything towards this person. If the person would repent though and IF it feels right to me, I could forgive. I feel that there much more abuse with forgiveness than confusion with forgiveness.... Many spiritual or religious or friends or therapists push forgiveness onto vicitms as if it would heal everything, too much fake forgiveness too, not to mention the abusers pushing to be forgiven... why would they do that then if it had no positive consequences to them?
'Merry Band of Enablers' 😅
@Dr Ramani that dress & colour is very pretty on you 🌻. Bless you for sharing these videos with us 😊🙏🌷
I was just journaling about this today.
Im not forgiving this narc. Its not about holding a grudge. Its about recognizing the corrupt playing field this guy plays on and avoiding it like the plague.
Forgiveness has nothing to do with them. It's about forgiving myself for abandoning myself on behalf of a complete a hole. Im trying to process that but its difficult. I was 100% duped. For years.
Part of me feels foolish. Niave? Maybe so. But i also recognize the depth of the manipulation and lies were far more than anything ive ever experienced. Spread on so outrageously thick. Blatant lies. Straight to my face. Look me in the eye and make life promises all the while knowing he would not or could not deliver on them. Watching me run off with his words...sharing ideas about our future. I often try to think about what it would feel like/where id have to be emotionally to lie to anyone like that. Where would my intent be coming from. Ive determined it would be based on such bitter disrespect and disregard; blantly hurting someone. Knowing you're doing it. Watching them respond as they believe you.
People who have not experienced this can think i'm over emotional or not letting go or whatever. Truth is i'm in disbelief, trying to wrap my brain around this narc way of thinking.
Ive asked God to walk with me as I heal...surround me in his light...will be between me and my higher power. We will create a safe internal space to work on healing together. I pray God shines his healing light on the parts of my soul dirtied/damaged/shamed by the narc. God will make me whole. Flowers and peace will reside there again. Enough distance away from this weirdo will help heal me and thats my #1 priority.
God will deal with the narc.
If you were in a war and got shot, after triage or surgery or whatever would you go walk out on that field again to offer the guy who shot you forgiveness? No f'ing way...because he doesnt give a crap about forgiveness. He wants to destroy you and win the war.
These people are so unconsciously and intensely pissed off.
Stay far away. Turn your back and heal yourself. Get your strength back. God will handle them.
I'm only forgiving those who will take accountability and will put in the work to make themselves a better person through therapy. I will not forgive people who fall into religion. My peace of mind is too important to me!
One of the biggest hurts is being made to feel crazy as a way to deflect from the narc abuse. Not engaging in it nor tolerating it anymore. Thank you Dr Ramani ❤
Thank you so much for turning on your closed captioning. It's super helpful for me and probably others as well❤
This video and your willingness to share honestly is so appreciated. Thank you, it aids comfort the soul and calm the mind. Gratitude always. ☝️🙏✨
I got some clarification for myself about this issue: I forgive also for my own sake. I can move on, leaving the judgment to someone else, God. I can still feel hurt. And there is no need to tell the narc. I still grey rock. But I can move on free and not tied down with feelings of revenge.
Thank you for validating this! So many people, including some professionals, tell you that you have to forgive to move on. Nope. Forgive myself, yes. Forgive narcy; that's between him and God.
I do not have to forgive the abuse to heal.
I can move on.
I keep seeing this comment but…That’s really nice but when you have children with a narcissist you can’t cut ties with them because the children are in the middle.
@@MacJank7 I have seven children with the narcissist. As well as seven grandchildren.
I didn’t say anything about cutting ties.
I said I do not have to forgive.
@@shinykazzadragon I was not pointing fingers, I was making a general statement. Why the sarcasm or are we having misunderstandings based on reading text with no voice inflection like you get when having a face to face conversation?
@@MacJank7 Woah!
You keep attributing things to me I do not say, or intend.
Stop it.
I said I did not say anything about cutting ties, and said I had children with a narcissist.
What are you interpreting?
I'd appreciate it if you stop doing what you're doing.
Forgiveness in this case is based on guilt, which indicates that you feel YOU did something wrong when you know you didn't. So sometimes it's okay to not forgive.
The #1 reason for my fights w the narcissist is: their trying to convince me I’m crazy. Literally laying out in words and reason why I am insane.
GREAT video! Coming from a narcissistic family and years of narcissistic alcoholic abuse, growing up, I struggled for so long, trying to forgive, and realizing that I am unable to do it myself I’m glad to know that it can be OK not to forgive those who were narcissist or enabler’s. Thanks, once again for all of your videos and helpful suggestions and advice.
No longer seeking external closure. Forgiving myself provided what I needed 😊
It's so controlling, that I cannot even say what I'm feeling writing my soul. Mercy oh my Lord❤
I can only say I've honest thing. You perfectly described the whole mind blowing never ending sick cicle. I wish they cure their ways. Yet line though said. There's no cure for narcissistic behavior.
I have 💯 been branded as the problem for speaking up and exerting boundaries, and not wanting repeatedly unapologetically abusive narcissistic family members in my life. It’s so messed up. It makes me sad because I don’t know how to be with my family much anymore. They are all enablers and flying monkeys. Not many people understand. I’m met with so much shame blame gaslighting and pressure to ‘forgive’ no matter what awful thing they do. But I kinda don’t care anymore. I matter too. It’s my choice. Prioritizing my safety and health. Thank you Dr Ramani ❤
I have done things a completely different way 😂 I was married for 32. Since we were 17. When I found out in October he was cheating again I was done. I kicked him out. I deleted him and every family member he has out of my phone and blocked all of them on social media. Since then we no longer talk at all. If we have to talk about finances we go through a third party. I have chosen to forgive him but I will NOT forget or ever allow this to happen to me again. I chose to forgive him for my own self. I don’t want to carry anything that happened between us around any longer. Forgiving has help me to let go. I still have LOTS of healing to do. You have helped me so much Dr. Ramani and I’m so grateful for you!! ❤
It’s been over 30 years since I divorced the narc. Everything you are saying is true about the backlash you get for not forgiving. I have no need nor desire to forgive him. God knows who and what he is and I feel God will take care of him one day, however, that may be. About 15 years ago it was rammed home to me just un-sorry he was for all the damage he did. Which of course made me darn happy. I never forgave him. It just made me want to make sure I never do.
Thank you for this video. I have struggled with knowing whether to forgive.
Forgiveness is only for yourself, not anyone else. As long as you haven't forgiven someone it's one more little thorn in your side that is invisible to anyone but you. You don't have to listen to anyone about how to forgive. Never speak to the narcissist again. Withdraw your compassion and empathy, whatever you have to do, but forgive in secrecy, inside, for yourself.
How do you forgive the unforgivable behavior that will never change? Unfortunately narcissists do not mellow and get nicer as they age. They only become worse, especially with dementia or Alzheimer’s. The damage becomes more hurtful and is unending. My covert narcissist mother is more vicious than ever with age as she is no longer able to hide or pretend as easily. The little hope I had of a pleasant loving relationship at the end is gone. It is soul shattering to deal with and accept. I’ve had to go gray rock to survive. My heart goes out to all who have had to deal with narcissism and survive. The damage cannot be in done but you can forgive yourself and find a measure of peace and contentment. Grace and peace to all and especially Dr Ramani for her great heart and understanding.
I think we should stop saying forgiveness because it's misunderstood. We only need to forgive ourselves for thinking the past can be any different. Indifference of that person and forgetting they exist and not letting them live rent free in our head so we can move on fully. You don't have to forgive what they did.
Forgiving is not like "Hey, let's forget about that, everything is fine", it should be more like "Hey, I don't wanna hold any grudges, but don't do that again, I'll be on the watch", and not only for narcissists, for everyone.
Forgiving narcissist means far more than 5 billions of people around the world are gonna live in misery for the rest of their life. Just imagine how many true talented people who are not able to grow at their fullness.
Brilliant. One of the best Forgiveness videos so far. Seeing and understanding the clinical results of forgiving a Narcissist is a powerful tool in seeing that Forgiveness is problematic in Narcissistic relationships. We must keep the spotlight on their unchanging behavior.
We lose the gift to trust our inner voice.....
I've learned from hearing from others in this comments section that the definition of forgiveness is subjective, and not helpful to a general audience.
Also, when it comes to people who will never change their abusive behavior, forgiveness seems like a futile exercise as long as one remains in a relationship with the abusive narcissist.
This hit home. Left spouse in December, barely spoke with him for 2 months after. He claimed he’s doing therapy, Alanon, and he’s accountable to poor behavior. So I have been entertaining idea of returning. NO!! Trying to forgive so we can be together!! When he’s clearly not accountable, it’s leaking out in his comments and behavior. My therapist has been really hard on me-thank God!! I have needed someone in my face telling me the truth because he’s so good at what he does.
YES SPOT ON ! So well said Dr Ramani, thank you for calling this right out.. no oppressive victimhood for me anymore! YOU.. can't forgive something that has somehow killed itself already off long, long ago! May it be a self empowering learning curb for us all who have just had ENOUGH of the continuous regurgitation coming from them over and over again!
I felt so validated with this video. Finally I was given permission to not forgive. Then the more I thought about it I had a huge AHA! moment that I am still processing. I needed someone to give me “permission”. Wow! It was in that moment that I realized that my power, my agency, my authentic self had been totally stripped away piece by piece, over the many years of being in the narcissistic relationship. I needed someone to “give me permission”! I am learning that I have the power, I have the right to say yes or no to whatever comes my way. I choose to not forgive. Yay for me! Thank you Dr. Ramani.
When someone tries to manipulate you with forgiveness, ask, "do you have something to confess so that I can forgive it?" they'll go to hel1 where they belong
Forgiveness is really irrelevant. Because your brain will never ever forget that feeling that makes you scream in your sleep!
And IMHO, one should *never* forget such abuse because when you do, you are then vulnerable to more abuse.
Correct.
Acknowledgment is more effective than forgiveness when dealing with a narc. E.g. I acknowledge that what that person did was not okay. I will hold on to that knowing. Not seeking revenge or anything but carry on living a reasonable life.
@@corichang yes. And I acknowledge that they can't do better. I acknowledge I have to find relationships that are better, that are between people where the given and take is equal, where personal boundaries are indisputable, where helping each other means both sides. I acknowledge that in narcissistic relationships people are depleted, disrespected, abused and humanity's dark side is so prevalent.
The opposite is true between people with healthy relationships. Thriving comes from supportive systems. Not corrupt systems. In supportive, healthy systems you can find the love in humanity.
Narcissism is the dark side.
Given that narcissistic people tend to get into positions of power and also tend to write narratives that suits them. I think there is a possibility that forgiveness has been weaponized and used as another tactic by such people to suit their wants, whims and needs regardless of other people's.
Forgiveness is NOT reconciliation. I have forgiven by not letting the narcissist and flying monkeys occupy my mind. But I have also stayed away to put an end to the abuse so I can heal. And I've cut off anyone who doesn't respect my position. At 60, I'm finally at peace.
i forgave only bc i was super toxic as well. i was codependent, easily triggered, emotionally disconnected, and uncomfortable with intimacy. i stayed far too long and i still dont know what all really happened even though i know and accept what i did wrong. i will probably never fully know and im ok with that. any forgiveness does not mean someone is welcome in my life any further than is necessary. maybe its more like i am forgiving myself for my part in that disaster of a relationship. anyways, love your work dr ramani! ❤
There comes a point when you have had enough.
I have always said that forgiveness is the wrong idea when it comes to moving on psychologically from narcissistic abuse. Once you become indifferent to the past abuse is when you truly move on. You don't forgive mental abuse ever.
Mine just keeps saying
“move on already”… we have four children and he abused me physically , got caught , did the anger classes only to sexually exploit me four years later ! It woke me up , but he has two of my children saying mom is stuck in “ victimhood”…. HELL NO. I can’t move on , I must carry the harm and integrate it into my being and live with it . I should be allowed to heal at my pace . Now I face a custody hearing for 16 year old daughter . ??? Really ??? How do you forgive or move on from someone who keeps coming for your soul . ??
Radical acceptance is healthy. Forgiveness is neither nor. It's deeply personal. Had a chat with a friend just this morning, how we're both effed up in many respects because our similar experiences. Except, we're probably becoming far healthier on our respective journeys than a lot of people who've never experienced these dynamics. My dad, and other culprits aren't in my head so much now. When they do pop up, I usually give them a 2 finger salute. To me, that's healing - not allowing them to mine my mind anymore ❤
Toxic forgiveness is like spending above your means so everyone in your group looks richer than anyone is. It upholds a toxic communal narrative, blurs toxic collective behavior & supplies toxic positivity to the group @ the expense of the one forgiving. Any choice to forgive must involve a better forgiveness, one with a true assessment of costs & means.
I’m breaking down after listening to this because a couple weeks before my sister assaulted me due to her gf getting into her head about me we had finally found solid ground for the first time in 3 years (since her and her gf got together). She was sobbing as she told me that she thought she had lost me. I immediately accepted her apology and told her she would never lose me no matter what, we had gone through so much in our childhood. Her gf has convinced her that I failed her for not stepping up to the plate like she does. Although we were both just kids, they’re adults that can advocate for their needs. I had more on my plate than her gf could imagine and she refuses too because in her eyes anyone that gets remotely close to my sister is public enemy #1. We had the tightest bond to the point where everyone around admired that about us. Im breaking down because weeks after we hashed things out she assaulted me, accused me of some vile things an old fake friend had told her. Assaulted me, got arrested, then filed a restraining order against me out of revenge for her arrest.Now I know for sure forgiveness is no longer an option. That doesn’t make me the bitter one, I don’t think she’ll ever fully understand how much this hurts me.. I need to love myself and protect myself even if it’s against the person that meant the most to me. I forgive myself for refusing to make any sort of amends in the future. I hope down the line she realizes what her gf has truly done to our family and heals from it, but she’ll have to do that without me…
It blows my mind how family wants you to keep taking care of the narcissist but they don’t. They don’t get it.
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! For saying this. I have said this for yrs. OMG! Thx U!
The only person you need to forgive is yourself in any of these relationships.
Mostly to protect yourself not just to forgive.
Before I forgive them, I'm gonna forgive myself.
spot on! loved your new book It’s not you!
I also needed to hear this today. Totally agree.
Dr. Ramani, I've gone through life fearing with good reason to fear. I need a moment to figure out words. Concern, if I give examples.
Thank you, for allowing this information available to the public
No examples. This is my input:
Forgiving isn't the solution, especially, if the person doesn't understand what they did wrong. Handing the pain/ sorrow over to the higher power to save your own soul is best, which I believe, it's what Dr. Ramani calls "Radical Acceptance."
Like anything, forgiveness should be earned. As long as they're harming someone they haven't earned forgiveness. Stop hurting people, then ask for forgiveness, and don't expect a yes.
I proposed to my 6 year girlfriend and even though she said "yes" in what I thought was a beautiful moment she called me that night crying that she didn't understand why she felt so bad about my proposal, about why I didn't make a speech about why I wanted to marry her, why I didn't kneel properly, why I didn't do it in another place.
This has broken my heart and told her i cant marry her now, i'm kind of lost now.....
Just last year my relationship ended and ive struggled for years with forgiveness (what it is, how it works) even though i grew up going to church, the topic wasnt talked about much in detail from what i can remember. Now ive learned that i can give myself the empathy, compassion and understanding i so willingly gave to him to help my life and see past it all. Its still a process and i do have my days but ill get there
As someone who has always struggled with this, one of the best lessons I’ve ever learned was from a Catholic Preist and mentor of mine. He taught me that forgiveness does NOT mean you need to let someone back into your life. It does not mean you need to be in a relationship with them or even be friends with them, or have any contact at all. It really means instead to take that justifiable anger, energy, and hurt and begin to heal and let go of that attachment you have to this person. He explained that forgiving them would mean seeing how very sad it must be to live in such a miserable, hateful, and evil way where the only thing that gives them temporary relief is causing pain and suffering to their victims. It’s accepting that they are sick, they will never change, and the best thing you can do is pray for them from afar - but definitely never let them into your life! I definitely think it is so easy and often misunderstood that forgiving someone means being with them or around them, so I thought his perspective was amazing!
Excellent Video Dr Ramani and so precise and truthful! Thank you so much!
Working on forgiveness has helped my healing and growth process immensely. However, I set boundaries, follow through with consequences, and eliminate toxic people from my life when possible. Forgiveness has given me strength and well-being. I do not forget the abuse or continue to be around those who are abusive, while working on being a better person myself.
Dear Doctor, I feel like you're talking right to me in my home. I can't tell you how I needed these reassuring words. As a child I forgave so many times, because we need our parents. As an adult I continued to forgive, but when I tried to set boundaries I was immediately called unforgiving, difficult, etc. Recently my in-laws have come at me full force about forgiveness and they just won't stop (because I'm five years nc now with my parents). It's really harassment, and I finally blocked them. Why do people never focus on the abuser's bad behavior? Why constantly blame the victim? I'm so tired. It's hard to find some supportive and caring about how I'm being treated.
I am convinced that if people had good parents, especially a good mother, they can’t even fathom what we have gone through. I’m not even going to bother talking to my siblings about it anymore. I asked for help with some of the burden but only one helped me. Then they say smile and keep doing the work. They say set boundaries, which is a little hard when I did and you all said oh you gotta still go see her, you know she is old, just do this for a couple more years. Your her daughter, I am at the point where I am just, do you hear yourselves. I have one sister in law who went no contact. I know she gets it. I have another one who I think gets it. The rest don’t get it. I gotta do what works for me.
I have healed and I haven’t forgiven . The only person I forgave was myself .
I have learned to respond by saying, “I have forgiven, and now I am learning to stop normalizing bad behavior. There is nothing more that I will say on the subject."
Narcs are people who believe they're emotionally "starving" and ask everyone around them to constantly feed and forgive them. I've recently stopped feeding and forgiving my narc friends, family, and partner, and the results have been eye-opening.
Thank you Dr. Ramani!!
People marry forgiveness with allowance way too much.
When you feel moved to forgive, forgive. Let the grudge go. Let your heart be set free.
HOWEVER, Set the boundary. Hold the fort. Burn the bridge.
You can forgive someone and you can simultaneously release the relationship and draw the line. Cut off the branches as well if you must. They can call you unforgiving all the want.
I did forgive. I just also drew the line.
Thank you for this video. It was so timely. The issue of forgiveness came up in my therapy session this morning, and it really stuck in my throat! I have attempted forgiveness before with my parents, especially my mother, and it worked temporarily, but then went back to the default. You were able to articulate why forgiveness is difficult, if not impossible, in some cases. Especially in situations, there is no redemption, and the perpetrators continue to hurt you over and over and over again. I have a lot to think about over the coming days and weeks. 🤔
I've never seen a narcissist who ever thought they did anything that needed forgiveness.
I love the Dr.’s videos & respect her work. So much so that I wrote my own books about my own experiences. But, the “forgiveness “ part is where I see a “kink” 😅. We can forgive without allowing those ppl back in our lives. Forgiveness doesn’t mean taking them back, but it releases us from internal resentment & anger. Narcissists don’t change. They are devils. We don’t take them back.
Yes and thank you. Troweled on top of all this as well, for me, is the fact that he has NEVER ONCE offered forgiveness of me, for my past failings (I say past, because unlike him, I've changed my behavior). It's always HIM alone who deserves forgiveness.