same thing happens at Lakeside in Queensland. 3 people bought houses near a race track that's been around since the 70s, and complain about the noise and want the council to shut the track, which they nearly did...
@@Wingyy1995 I do not why these "Idiots" buy and/or build houses right next to racetracks, airports, etc. then complain about the noise, smells, etc. Didn't they know there was a racetrack, airport, etc. there and that there was going to be noises, smells, etc. coming from said facility. Like I said: "Idiots"! Then when you ask them: "Why did you buy and/or build your house there?" they will then point to the Racetrack, airport, etc. as one of the main reasons. Again like I said: "Idiots"! Reminds me of when I was a Volunteer Fire fighter and our one local Police officer and his wife had a newborn baby, He would complain about the Fire Company using sirens when approaching the traffic light in town. So The Fire chief told lay on the air horns and sirens when approaching the traffic light! ROTF LMAO State law says we are supposed to respond to ALL Calls Lights and Sirens!! Unless we are told respond "under caution" then we will not use siren and just use our lights, or if we are told: "No Lights and No Sirens" then we would not use lights or sirens. You would think a Police Officer would know that. lol
@@matthewgroff433 look at what happened with NASCAR at Nashville fairgrounds A bunch of Karen’s got together and complained about the noise but the track was there first If you move somewhere you better know where your going
There were people in my town who prevented a train shed from being built for years. The town is the terminus for an Amtrak line, and thanks to the lack of train storage we didn't get the first or last train of the day. Oh yea, these were the people who bought houses with a train track in the backyard. If you don't want to hear trains, maybe don't buy a house next to a train track. Same goes for a race track or airport. Very predictable levels of noise
Considering the land is still there its interesting that Limerock has never considered an expansion, maybe not to this scale, but something. Still, really neat to see what the original plan was. Great stuff!
Lime rock resident here. Local geezers really don't like the track to begin with which makes it nearly impossible for anything to really happen at the track. Driving by it you'll see sign of "peaceful sundays" and "No more racing" littleed on the sides of the roads. The idea of getting this style of expansion is not even remotely possible which is a shame cause the few races that the track has brings hundreds of thousands of dollars of revenue to the surrounding towns
@@donovanmccray6274 Guess these old guys think the money drops out of the sky... but one day, they'll all be gone :p It's funny how other places it's younger people that seem to have an issue at loud race tracks.
@@peterdaviesracing That part of CT is pretty affluent, a lot of wall street types from nyc who come up for the "quaint rural town" atmosphere/experience. It's not just the local parish against the track, its them as well cause they want a peaceful weekend on their estate.
2:38 It is actually estimated that the Fitch Barrier has saved more than 17,000 lives since first being used in the sixties. And even more interesting: He got the idea from his time fighting in WW2. He would fill jerry cans with sand to protect his tent from strafing airplanes. The circumstances in which they were invented are tragic, but Fitch no doubt succeeded in his mission to prevent further death.
That layout looks really fun to drive, I wish more modern circuits would use they typography of the land to shape their layout rather than build around flashy grand stands and facilities.
@@MrBrno I had a ridiculous Super TC2000 phase a year ago and I blame it almost exclusively on that track. Fuck, what a venue. Surely a high-level series can bring it out of hibernation. The Intercontinental GT Challenge, perhaps? OP is spot on in general.
5:27 - 'don't touch the kerbs, they're a bit slippery' So they were designed by Codemasters then? (in all seriousness I love this video, love this kind of knowledge and deep dive into racing history!)
Every year there’s a competition where local high schools from several different states come to Lime Rock Park with custom built electric cars and do a one hour endurance race on the autocross circuit.
I did this in high school, we built a carbon fiber three wheel car with an aluminum front axle and roll bar. Power came from two optima yellow top batteries. Most cars including ours used bmx wheels and tires. This was a year long class for us, racing last years car in the fall and then building our own learning from the previous car and race for the spring.
A very good track indeed. It would have given Watkins Glen a run for its money. Caveat: I'm no sim racer but I used to design track layouts on the tentenths forum which has a section especially dedicated to fantasy tracks.
I think it could've worked today, it gives me big Mount Panorama vibes in the mountain section. A bit of Watkins Glen vibes as well with the fast esses and minimal runoff. Remove the grass on the track edges in the mountains, replace the armco with concrete walls and add catch-fencing. Add some tecpro/tyre/SAFER barriers in the faster sections of the mountain parts.
I have been to Lime Rock three times in my life. The original layout would have been fantastic to watch and hike around as Bridgehampton was. Yes,I went there too as a child. I saw the first year of the Trans Am at Lime Rock which was '67 I believe, SCCA races in '66, and the Northeast GP in 2017. At Bridgehampton we saw the USRRC(pre-Can Am) in '66 and Can Am in '67.
I used to go to LMP as a kid, and always loved going there. The drive to the track is really pretty and the way the track is tucked into the hillside, gives it a private feel. The expanded layout would of made for great racing, but missing out on Big Bend as a spectator would leave something missing. I always loved watching cars going flat out on the last turn to the straight and then having to slow it to a crawl as racers would try late dives into the first turn. One of my favorite tracks I've been to.
It’s crazy hearing people from all over the world talk about my local track lol, I’m a little biased but I think it’s super underrated, always great racing and a flow that just gets addicting
I feel the same way, it’s such a neat little track to watch races on. Lots of different places around the track to watch from too which makes the spectator experience awesome
One other thing, there is a somewhat obscure documentary on DVD about Limerock Park, called The Secret Valley of racing, that features interviews with drivers who were still alive at the time, like Fitch and Newman! I highly recommend it if you are intrested in the track
Just ordered a copy, I absolutely love this track and going to some of the summer races since it’s only an hour or so away. Looking forward to watching this! Thanks for the recommendation!
Thanks for a fascinating look at what might have been. I'm not a gamer or sim racer and normally skip videos based upon such technology, but this topic appealed to me having enjoyed many races at Lime Rock on TV over the decades. I love the alternate track layout but you're right that such a design created in the 50s would've had to have major adjustments to handle cars over the following eras. The longer track would almost surely have resulted in series that bypassed the current configuration racing here (Indy? Can-Am?) and such high-level performers would have exposed any safety shortcomings that could not have been foreseen when Vail and Fitch conceived the longer circuit. As for the possibility of any such development now, people have already posted below about the reactionary attitudes of locals about racing here. I watched the 2021 IMSA GT race on TV not long ago and remember the commentator talking about the local regs that forced the race to be called after a lightning delay because no racing was allowed after 6 p.m., I believe, and of course noise-level bans outside of specific hours.
As someone who's driven Lime Rock in real life (classic not the chicane version), this was a super interesting video. I never knew about this and truthfully I never even really paid attention to the excessive runoff at the end of Sam Posey straight. Crazy to see what could have been...
It feels so awesome to hear my name at the end. Great video Rhys! The quality of your recent videos has been super impressive. Can’t wait to see what you make next on Patreon!
I only discovered this layout by chance, because someone created Lime Rock for BeamNG including a mountain part. I had never heard of it, since this layout never made an official appearance. Thank you for this video with all the insights!
I go to Lime Rock 4-5 times a year. 2 as a spectator the rest to race or crew. Great video of "what might have been" I think had the full circuit been there it would have failed. Part of what makes Lime Rock is the short bull ring style that brings racers back time after time. The saying is Lime Rock is very easy to learn and very difficult to master. If you look around there are pictures of the course with the trees cut down. The chicane for the uphill was put in largly because of Claude Gou's back flip during a race.
Always loved racing here. My first simracing podium was here, back in 2012, my team won the championship the next year in probably the best race of my life! Drove Audi R18, Ferrari 458 Gt2, F1 71 and GPC79 in this wonderful version. Shame no rich dude that loves racing hasn't thought of finishing the job (looking at you mr. Zak Brown). Have I said that this is my favourite track ever ever yet?
First track I ever did a track day at was Lime Rock. The layout looks boring from an aeriel view, but the elevation changes make it lots of fun. I never knew it was originally intended to be longer. Learn something new everyday!
0:18 lovely mention od rfactor 2 , great! Probably the best sim out there. And they are (still) building the Competition System, I am really trying to survive in this hard world to see if i see it coming to life! :P
That track looks really fun. Can't go wrong with a blast over a mountain. Seems to flow very nicely. By the way, try adding a light in you green screen shot that lights your head from behind. That should get rid of the green halo around your face.
Wonderful stuff! Being an AC/ACC driver I'm not familiar with this venue but it looks incredibly fun to drive, so keen to grab a mod. Thanks for sharing :)
@@DomHowardsFluoPants there’s a new mountain circuit that was released not too long ago. it’s completely rebuilt and a blast to drive. wish i could remember where i got it from, just came across it one day.
Look back at what I grew up with Laguna Seca WITHOUT the inner loop At that time just to race there you had to record races on other tracks as the track speeds were far higher than today
I just got into track making for a motocross game, funny enough the developer for that game made a Moto GP game, kart racing game, and a car racing game (which is as developed as the others unfortunately). Thank you so much for making this video I’m planning on making a Motorsport Park playable in all the games (hoping it works in the car racing game) and this is a very solid candidate for a road course.
Rhys seems to have read my mind. Or maybe I just thought of it because rF2's GT Challenge competition will reach... LRP on Friday. A small, short track with 30 cars, crazy. But some years ago, I actually did get to drive the mountain layout during one of F1-S-R's classic LE F1 championship races and I've not forgotten it since. It's a nice gem, too bad they couldn't get it done due to locals and probably also budget issues? Reminds me a bit of NOLA's southern course I think which hasn't been completed either. But that one's flat as a pancake in comparsion. The ups and downs of the track stand out and give the course character, I'd say it is what I'd call "Little (American) Nürburgring" if it wasn't for Atlanta Motorsports Park exist today :D Kudos to Rhys to bring this forgotten layout to the attention of people! :D
Brilliant video! Former Skip Barber mechanic and racer in 1990-91. The 2 best years of my life! Also best IMSA GTP w Gurney Toyota and Tom Walkinshaw Jags. The big course would have been epic. But that is Watkins Glen. How about short, fast, flowing and great for sportscars (racecars were still sportscars in 1957). I still get seat time in my 97 flyin Miata at open track days throughout the year. ❤ Lime Rock Park
Ah, Lime Rock. Mid Ohio of the east coast. I think it's brilliant the way it is, and since the extended circuit is really cool and interesting, it takes it from a claustrophobic test of patience, to a more traditional race experience. I don't think it would be nearly as popular as it is today
One intresting idea, if they ever were to consider the expansion again, would be to cut some costs by making it a rally/dirt track. It fits the surroundings a bit better, and could attract different kinds of racing!
I do wonder if NASCAR would’ve run a cup race or 2 on that layout if it had come into being. So far they’ve only had a handful of feeder series races and I feel like it could be a hidden gem for the Trucks or Xfinity series. That aside, this was a really cool look into a course that everyone knows & loves. Well done Rhys!
@Kettle Run Railfan - They used to run the NASCAR Busch North Series at Lime Rock years back. I am not a fan of NASCAR, but have to admit it was pretty exciting to see these massive, heavy vehicles fly around the course, banging fenders most of the way. It drew some good size crowds too! After seeing them at Watkins Glen I thought to myself, if the typical NASCAR fan saw these machines on a real race track (sorry), where they actually have to turn in both directions, manage tight turns and work both the transmissions and the brakes, they wouldn't bother watching them on a boring oval track ever again! Lol
I think the long circuit would have worked, and they would have altered the plans anyway to add spectator areas, and access roads for track crews to get to incidents at the top without running the full circuit. There's enough wiggle room that making it wider with more runoff area would be feasible at the time of construction. Those early ground effects cars would likely be the biggest issue, and I can see those being banned in the 70's or 80's like everywhere else did. As for whether the circuit would have survived with that configuration, I'd point to Mount Panorama as an example of something probably as if not more dangerous that's adapted and provided decades of epic racing. It's another circuit that's all about flow and momentum that eggs you on to go a bit faster. With the short course remaining an option Limerock would be flexible for more classes and might have seen much more action. Honestly, every feeder series should run there. The biggest hindrance I see would be the noise ordinances there, although the sound bouncing off the mountain would be glorious.
I think the track would have been better if they had included the full layout. I mean, Mount Panorama makes do with the huge elevation change and pretty much zero runoff in those areas. I'm not trying to make an argument, I love your videos and watch them religiously.
Thanks to jake from GP laps for reminding me of this video I remember watching it when it first came out and well worth a rewatch, love the Great work you both put into bringing to the sims racing world.
Great video. I think this layout would have been great in action, but all the safety measures would have had to been a thing for it to survive. Lime Rock in its current form is a fun track with lesser-powered cars; Lime Rock in the form represented here would have been a blast in all cars.
You do know that Trans AM raced there last weekend and the TA cars have over 850HP. Not sure why you think lower powered cars. The new record for them is a 49.832. We do consistant 57's in our racing corvette.
I live only about an hour or so east of lime rock. I've only been there a few times as a kid but it was an absolute blast. We were there for a Boy Scout outing so we got a lot of behind-the-scenes access. We got to meet one of the martials who manned the flags at the inside of turn 1. I would love to see them try to build this part of the track today. I think it could really help with the racing that happens there, especially IMSA and maybe we could see some F1 if they do other upgrades to get the proper FIA rating.
Unfortunately the only way they could make anything like that happen is if they somehow buy the entire village. Not the nicest neighbors. Curious to see what'll come with FCP stepping in though
@Connor Thomas - F1 will never race here - way to short and tight a course. Are you aware that F1 used to race at Watkins Glen, NY? The FIA withdrew it from their agenda because there weren't enough hotel rooms close enough to the area!
I never knew about this alternate layout! What a bummer that it was not realized. I wonder if the track still owns that land and if it would be possible some day?
@Atlantic Earth Aerials - They got so far as to cut out the trees and bulldoze the planned track line, but that was it. For years it was visible, but then nature took over and new trees replenished the ones that were removed. I don't believe any of it is still distinguishable today, more than 66 years later!
I've seen many races at Lime Rock and I've turned a few fast laps as well. IMHO Lime Rock is a perfect track for vintage racing. Modern race cars can't really stretch their legs due to it's size. But it's perhaps the nicest track in the northeast. It's perfect as it is.
Lime rock is a track I like from a layout perspective and something I would want to race at in some time but I wish more tracks were like this in the US Plus it gives me brands hatch/catalunya vibes for the layout
@Shadowguy - I recall some years back when Hans Stuck, Jr. was at the Historic Festival at Lime Rock and over the P.A. system commented on how beautiful the track was and that it reminded him of parts of Germany! Contrast that statement with one from a French driver, who will remain unnamed, who said it looked like a go kart track to him. Not unexpectedly, he received a loud chorus of boos from the loyal Lime Rock crowd!
Now that Lime Rock has new owners with deep pockets, perhaps something like this will be considered. No Sunday racing and only four unmuffled events per year hurts getting some of the big players. First went there in 1957, been racing (vintage) since 1988. Love the place!
wait, this isn't Queensland Raceway :'D first I have SouthPawRacer talking race comms in my ear, now I have him whispering sweat nothings about a race track...
God damn thats a pretty looking track. The Bathurst of America that was never was. I think open wheeled cars would've stopped racing on the mountain layout, excepting maybe Skip Barber and Formula Ford, but it would've been a helluva track to race on. I think sportscars and nascar and spec miata would love this layout though. It'd be safe enough with modern barriers.
I worked in Sharon for 6 years. The amount of new residents formulating petitions to close it down was ridiculous. You chose to buy a house near an auto racing track. Thankfully the track has been working with the church recently to see if racing can occur on Sundays. NASCAR driver Parker Kligerman has been trying to bring a Truck race to the facility.
I would say that is all but impossible. They are having enough battles over noise with some locals, so any plans to expand are out of the question. LRP has done just fine in its current configuration.
Thank You. I remember John Morton crashing there in the Nissan gtp care. I didn't know about this much history. Thanks so much for what You taught me. Blushes.
I've got an unusual suggestion for you, if you're interested. I've been making a racin game for the past 2 years, called Meh, Street R.I.C.E.r, and in it there's a course for the player to shake down cars they're in the process of unlocking called "seahorse raceway" It's a course I've made from chopped up bits of thr old top gear circuit. The point is to expose the strengths and weaknesses of the cars to the players. I'd be curious to know your feedback on if it accomplished that goal, if its fun, and any changes you might suggest. To get to it. Assuming you've just downloaded the game go Menu screen -> new/continue -> dealership (first choice to the right) -> walk to the back of the first floor to the magazine rack -> select the first magazine (they all have the track, but not all will run properly as of this writing) -> press y on xbox controller to give your opinion on the cars styling -> press a till you're at the drag strip -> complete the acceleration run -> press a to say how slow the car was -> you should be on the circuit (and if I haven't fixed it yet, you should be in the fastest car in the game, with the worst brakes). It will be a bit difficult because I'm still filling in the circuit, so some turns have no reference points. But you should be able to get the idea of the layout and flow.
Great video! Building off your what-ifs, I think if the track survived it would have needed a marque event or two (like Bathurst's 1000 and 12hr) to keep the long layout in use. Otherwise I feel like at some point it probably would have gotten a renovation that connects Vaill's to modern turn 2 somehow.
Thank you sir: I WELL remember going to SCCA etc. races w my parents and baby sister when I was about 12 to 14: got a paddock pass b/c one of my father's customers ran two cars including a Corvette just like the one in your vid (there's a photo of me somewhere standing in front of the cars like they're mine) and was let off the parental leash enough to wander around alone and among other things try -- and fail; such a nerd -- to strike up a conversation with the daughter of driver P. L. Newman (that's how he tried to stay under the radar). Also, the cars' exhaust notes bouncing off that mountain as they exited turns 2 and 3? I can hear it now...
![Stromae, Pomme - “Ma Meilleure Ennemie” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1F3OGIFnW1k/mqdefault.jpg)
It is so tragic. I go every year for Imsa but every year there's always the threat of the town closing it due to noise. I hate rich idiots
same thing happens at Lakeside in Queensland. 3 people bought houses near a race track that's been around since the 70s, and complain about the noise and want the council to shut the track, which they nearly did...
@@Wingyy1995 I do not why these "Idiots" buy and/or build houses right next to racetracks, airports, etc. then complain about the noise, smells, etc. Didn't they know there was a racetrack, airport, etc. there and that there was going to be noises, smells, etc. coming from said facility. Like I said: "Idiots"! Then when you ask them: "Why did you buy and/or build your house there?" they will then point to the Racetrack, airport, etc. as one of the main reasons. Again like I said: "Idiots"!
Reminds me of when I was a Volunteer Fire fighter and our one local Police officer and his wife had a newborn baby, He would complain about the Fire Company using sirens when approaching the traffic light in town. So The Fire chief told lay on the air horns and sirens when approaching the traffic light! ROTF LMAO State law says we are supposed to respond to ALL Calls Lights and Sirens!! Unless we are told respond "under caution" then we will not use siren and just use our lights, or if we are told: "No Lights and No Sirens" then we would not use lights or sirens. You would think a Police Officer would know that. lol
@@matthewgroff433 look at what happened with NASCAR at Nashville fairgrounds
A bunch of Karen’s got together and complained about the noise but the track was there first
If you move somewhere you better know where your going
@@matthewgroff433 😂 That's brilliant!
I completely agree with you, same issues here in the UK as well.
There were people in my town who prevented a train shed from being built for years. The town is the terminus for an Amtrak line, and thanks to the lack of train storage we didn't get the first or last train of the day. Oh yea, these were the people who bought houses with a train track in the backyard. If you don't want to hear trains, maybe don't buy a house next to a train track. Same goes for a race track or airport. Very predictable levels of noise
Considering the land is still there its interesting that Limerock has never considered an expansion, maybe not to this scale, but something. Still, really neat to see what the original plan was. Great stuff!
Pretty sure it was shut down by the same church/locals that keep them from racing on Sunday most of the time.
Lime rock resident here. Local geezers really don't like the track to begin with which makes it nearly impossible for anything to really happen at the track. Driving by it you'll see sign of "peaceful sundays" and "No more racing" littleed on the sides of the roads. The idea of getting this style of expansion is not even remotely possible which is a shame cause the few races that the track has brings hundreds of thousands of dollars of revenue to the surrounding towns
@@donovanmccray6274
Guess these old guys think the money drops out of the sky... but one day, they'll all be gone :p
It's funny how other places it's younger people that seem to have an issue at loud race tracks.
@@peterdaviesracing That part of CT is pretty affluent, a lot of wall street types from nyc who come up for the "quaint rural town" atmosphere/experience. It's not just the local parish against the track, its them as well cause they want a peaceful weekend on their estate.
It is quite nice that at least we got a taste of what it's going to be like in simracing.
2:38 It is actually estimated that the Fitch Barrier has saved more than 17,000 lives since first being used in the sixties. And even more interesting: He got the idea from his time fighting in WW2. He would fill jerry cans with sand to protect his tent from strafing airplanes.
The circumstances in which they were invented are tragic, but Fitch no doubt succeeded in his mission to prevent further death.
That layout looks really fun to drive, I wish more modern circuits would use they typography of the land to shape their layout rather than build around flashy grand stands and facilities.
Like Zandvoort then? It follows the dunes
@@karelpgbr Exactly, a good modern example would be Portimao as that was only finished in 2008 and we've had some great races there in lots of series.
@@NATM462 Potrero de los Funes is another example, although there's not been too much racing there in the last years, sadly.
The new Ozarks International Raceway is a new FIA grade track in Missouri uses the typography. It's just short of 4 miles.
@@MrBrno I had a ridiculous Super TC2000 phase a year ago and I blame it almost exclusively on that track. Fuck, what a venue. Surely a high-level series can bring it out of hibernation. The Intercontinental GT Challenge, perhaps?
OP is spot on in general.
5:27 - 'don't touch the kerbs, they're a bit slippery'
So they were designed by Codemasters then?
(in all seriousness I love this video, love this kind of knowledge and deep dive into racing history!)
Curbs. This i$ an American track, not German. Lol
Every year there’s a competition where local high schools from several different states come to Lime Rock Park with custom built electric cars and do a one hour endurance race on the autocross circuit.
Do they build the entire car themselves? That seems extremely impressive
@@jazzpi Some do. If a school has more money they might buy a kit. It depends.
I had a friend who was part of that one year!
I did this in high school, we built a carbon fiber three wheel car with an aluminum front axle and roll bar. Power came from two optima yellow top batteries. Most cars including ours used bmx wheels and tires. This was a year long class for us, racing last years car in the fall and then building our own learning from the previous car and race for the spring.
A very good track indeed. It would have given Watkins Glen a run for its money.
Caveat: I'm no sim racer but I used to design track layouts on the tentenths forum which has a section especially dedicated to fantasy tracks.
I prefer the old concept more than the actual circuit
I think it could've worked today, it gives me big Mount Panorama vibes in the mountain section. A bit of Watkins Glen vibes as well with the fast esses and minimal runoff. Remove the grass on the track edges in the mountains, replace the armco with concrete walls and add catch-fencing. Add some tecpro/tyre/SAFER barriers in the faster sections of the mountain parts.
I was thinking exactly the same thing with mount panorama
I think it's more like Brands Hatch.
That propsed Mountain circuit was a real blast to drive around on older sims, even in moder machine like mid 2000s WTCC cars.
I have been to Lime Rock three times in my life. The original layout would have been fantastic to watch and hike around as Bridgehampton was. Yes,I went there too as a child.
I saw the first year of the Trans Am at Lime Rock which was '67 I believe, SCCA races in '66, and the Northeast GP in 2017.
At Bridgehampton we saw the USRRC(pre-Can Am) in '66 and Can Am in '67.
This was one of the most underrated fantasy tracks for NR2003. I recall the trackside cameras being a bit janky, but that's a very fixable problem.
I used to go to LMP as a kid, and always loved going there. The drive to the track is really pretty and the way the track is tucked into the hillside, gives it a private feel. The expanded layout would of made for great racing, but missing out on Big Bend as a spectator would leave something missing. I always loved watching cars going flat out on the last turn to the straight and then having to slow it to a crawl as racers would try late dives into the first turn. One of my favorite tracks I've been to.
It’s crazy hearing people from all over the world talk about my local track lol, I’m a little biased but I think it’s super underrated, always great racing and a flow that just gets addicting
I feel the same way, it’s such a neat little track to watch races on. Lots of different places around the track to watch from too which makes the spectator experience awesome
Quite a fascinating video you got here, Rhys! Then again, why would I ever expect anything less from you?
The full track is in the port in BeamNG. It’s quite different but still fun
One other thing, there is a somewhat obscure documentary on DVD about Limerock Park, called The Secret Valley of racing, that features interviews with drivers who were still alive at the time, like Fitch and Newman! I highly recommend it if you are intrested in the track
Just ordered a copy, I absolutely love this track and going to some of the summer races since it’s only an hour or so away. Looking forward to watching this! Thanks for the recommendation!
Thanks for a fascinating look at what might have been. I'm not a gamer or sim racer and normally skip videos based upon such technology, but this topic appealed to me having enjoyed many races at Lime Rock on TV over the decades. I love the alternate track layout but you're right that such a design created in the 50s would've had to have major adjustments to handle cars over the following eras. The longer track would almost surely have resulted in series that bypassed the current configuration racing here (Indy? Can-Am?) and such high-level performers would have exposed any safety shortcomings that could not have been foreseen when Vail and Fitch conceived the longer circuit.
As for the possibility of any such development now, people have already posted below about the reactionary attitudes of locals about racing here. I watched the 2021 IMSA GT race on TV not long ago and remember the commentator talking about the local regs that forced the race to be called after a lightning delay because no racing was allowed after 6 p.m., I believe, and of course noise-level bans outside of specific hours.
As someone who's driven Lime Rock in real life (classic not the chicane version), this was a super interesting video. I never knew about this and truthfully I never even really paid attention to the excessive runoff at the end of Sam Posey straight. Crazy to see what could have been...
It feels so awesome to hear my name at the end. Great video Rhys! The quality of your recent videos has been super impressive. Can’t wait to see what you make next on Patreon!
YES! THE OLD PURPOSELS ARE BACK!!!
one of my favourite tracks to drive GT3 around. it is CONSTANT fun
One of my favorites circuits I've ever been too. Had a great chance to meet a lot of ALMS drivers back in the early 00's
This video was well-timed - I literally just reinstalled rFactor recently, so I can't wait to go try the track out.
I only discovered this layout by chance, because someone created Lime Rock for BeamNG including a mountain part. I had never heard of it, since this layout never made an official appearance. Thank you for this video with all the insights!
iRacing has already opened up the option of fantasy tracks you can't drive in real life, they should add this to the list.
I go to Lime Rock 4-5 times a year. 2 as a spectator the rest to race or crew. Great video of "what might have been" I think had the full circuit been there it would have failed. Part of what makes Lime Rock is the short bull ring style that brings racers back time after time. The saying is Lime Rock is very easy to learn and very difficult to master. If you look around there are pictures of the course with the trees cut down. The chicane for the uphill was put in largly because of Claude Gou's back flip during a race.
Always loved racing here. My first simracing podium was here, back in 2012, my team won the championship the next year in probably the best race of my life! Drove Audi R18, Ferrari 458 Gt2, F1 71 and GPC79 in this wonderful version. Shame no rich dude that loves racing hasn't thought of finishing the job (looking at you mr. Zak Brown). Have I said that this is my favourite track ever ever yet?
First track I ever did a track day at was Lime Rock. The layout looks boring from an aeriel view, but the elevation changes make it lots of fun. I never knew it was originally intended to be longer. Learn something new everyday!
0:18 lovely mention od rfactor 2 , great!
Probably the best sim out there. And they are (still) building the Competition System, I am really trying to survive in this hard world to see if i see it coming to life! :P
This basically was going to be a little american version of Mount Panorama
seeing a new great voice in sim racing youtube is awesome, keep it up man
That track looks really fun. Can't go wrong with a blast over a mountain. Seems to flow very nicely.
By the way, try adding a light in you green screen shot that lights your head from behind. That should get rid of the green halo around your face.
Glad there's a version on NR2003. I'll have to try this place out!
I still hope they reconsider building the full layout. (Even though that probably won’t happen)
Wonderful stuff! Being an AC/ACC driver I'm not familiar with this venue but it looks incredibly fun to drive, so keen to grab a mod. Thanks for sharing :)
I'm surprised you don't know lime rock. I thought it was one of the staple tracks that the USA has
AC has a great mod for Lime Rock
@@SwingAxleLover yeah it's a FM7 rip. And the Mountain Track was ported too (but does look its age)
@@DomHowardsFluoPants there’s a new mountain circuit that was released not too long ago. it’s completely rebuilt and a blast to drive. wish i could remember where i got it from, just came across it one day.
@@hunterwofford8 Let us know if you do!
I know that this layout was designed ages before the Red Bull Ring but both track layouts look incredibly similar lmao
Look back at what I grew up with
Laguna Seca WITHOUT the inner loop
At that time just to race there you had to record races on other tracks
as the track speeds were far higher than today
I just got into track making for a motocross game, funny enough the developer for that game made a Moto GP game, kart racing game, and a car racing game (which is as developed as the others unfortunately). Thank you so much for making this video I’m planning on making a Motorsport Park playable in all the games (hoping it works in the car racing game) and this is a very solid candidate for a road course.
There's actually a mod for Lime Rock for BeamNG that includes this layout! It's really fun to drive
Rhys seems to have read my mind.
Or maybe I just thought of it because rF2's GT Challenge competition will reach... LRP on Friday. A small, short track with 30 cars, crazy.
But some years ago, I actually did get to drive the mountain layout during one of F1-S-R's classic LE F1 championship races and I've not forgotten it since. It's a nice gem, too bad they couldn't get it done due to locals and probably also budget issues?
Reminds me a bit of NOLA's southern course I think which hasn't been completed either. But that one's flat as a pancake in comparsion.
The ups and downs of the track stand out and give the course character, I'd say it is what I'd call "Little (American) Nürburgring" if it wasn't for Atlanta Motorsports Park exist today :D
Kudos to Rhys to bring this forgotten layout to the attention of people! :D
Fascinating stuff. I love these track histories, and the sim render was quite impressive for the time.
Brilliant video!
Former Skip Barber mechanic and racer in 1990-91. The 2 best years of my life! Also best IMSA GTP w Gurney Toyota and Tom Walkinshaw Jags.
The big course would have been epic. But that is Watkins Glen. How about short, fast, flowing and great for sportscars (racecars were still sportscars in 1957). I still get seat time in my 97 flyin Miata at open track days throughout the year.
❤ Lime Rock Park
Man a BETTER version of Lime Rock? Surely not. This track looks amazing. Great historical deep dive mate. Enjoyed the video. 👍
Ah, Lime Rock. Mid Ohio of the east coast. I think it's brilliant the way it is, and since the extended circuit is really cool and interesting, it takes it from a claustrophobic test of patience, to a more traditional race experience. I don't think it would be nearly as popular as it is today
One intresting idea, if they ever were to consider the expansion again, would be to cut some costs by making it a rally/dirt track. It fits the surroundings a bit better, and could attract different kinds of racing!
I do wonder if NASCAR would’ve run a cup race or 2 on that layout if it had come into being. So far they’ve only had a handful of feeder series races and I feel like it could be a hidden gem for the Trucks or Xfinity series.
That aside, this was a really cool look into a course that everyone knows & loves. Well done Rhys!
@Kettle Run Railfan - They used to run the NASCAR Busch North Series at Lime Rock years back. I am not a fan of NASCAR, but have to admit it was pretty exciting to see these massive, heavy vehicles fly around the course, banging fenders most of the way. It drew some good size crowds too! After seeing them at Watkins Glen I thought to myself, if the typical NASCAR fan saw these machines on a real race track (sorry), where they actually have to turn in both directions, manage tight turns and work both the transmissions and the brakes, they wouldn't bother watching them on a boring oval track ever again! Lol
I honestly had no idea about this… absolutely epic and a superb video as always!🔥
Well boys and girls, let's get to crowdfunding this :D
I think the long circuit would have worked, and they would have altered the plans anyway to add spectator areas, and access roads for track crews to get to incidents at the top without running the full circuit. There's enough wiggle room that making it wider with more runoff area would be feasible at the time of construction.
Those early ground effects cars would likely be the biggest issue, and I can see those being banned in the 70's or 80's like everywhere else did.
As for whether the circuit would have survived with that configuration, I'd point to Mount Panorama as an example of something probably as if not more dangerous that's adapted and provided decades of epic racing. It's another circuit that's all about flow and momentum that eggs you on to go a bit faster. With the short course remaining an option Limerock would be flexible for more classes and might have seen much more action. Honestly, every feeder series should run there.
The biggest hindrance I see would be the noise ordinances there, although the sound bouncing off the mountain would be glorious.
I think the track would have been better if they had included the full layout. I mean, Mount Panorama makes do with the huge elevation change and pretty much zero runoff in those areas. I'm not trying to make an argument, I love your videos and watch them religiously.
I think the longer layout has the possibility to be another Nordschleife-like experience. Open for visitors or slower classes.
Thanks to jake from GP laps for reminding me of this video I remember watching it when it first came out and well worth a rewatch, love the Great work you both put into bringing to the sims racing world.
Stuff like this is what makes sim racing awesome.
I first saw this section of track on Beam.ng drive of all places. After I first tried that layout, that was the only one I used.
This track looks way to fun to be true
Great video. I think this layout would have been great in action, but all the safety measures would have had to been a thing for it to survive. Lime Rock in its current form is a fun track with lesser-powered cars; Lime Rock in the form represented here would have been a blast in all cars.
You do know that Trans AM raced there last weekend and the TA cars have over 850HP. Not sure why you think lower powered cars. The new record for them is a 49.832. We do consistant 57's in our racing corvette.
@@grumpyoldstudios - You beat me to it! I was going to make the same reply. Lesser powered cars? Lol
Never seen a video of you before, but i enjoyed it and like your sense of humor =)
I live only about an hour or so east of lime rock. I've only been there a few times as a kid but it was an absolute blast. We were there for a Boy Scout outing so we got a lot of behind-the-scenes access. We got to meet one of the martials who manned the flags at the inside of turn 1. I would love to see them try to build this part of the track today. I think it could really help with the racing that happens there, especially IMSA and maybe we could see some F1 if they do other upgrades to get the proper FIA rating.
Unfortunately the only way they could make anything like that happen is if they somehow buy the entire village. Not the nicest neighbors. Curious to see what'll come with FCP stepping in though
@Connor Thomas - F1 will never race here - way to short and tight a course. Are you aware that F1 used to race at Watkins Glen, NY? The FIA withdrew it from their agenda because there weren't enough hotel rooms close enough to the area!
You earned yourself a new subscriber!! Really entertaining to watch!
I never knew about this alternate layout! What a bummer that it was not realized. I wonder if the track still owns that land and if it would be possible some day?
@Atlantic Earth Aerials - They got so far as to cut out the trees and bulldoze the planned track line, but that was it. For years it was visible, but then nature took over and new trees replenished the ones that were removed. I don't believe any of it is still distinguishable today, more than 66 years later!
THANK YOU FOR SHOWING MY FAVOURITE TRACK EVER! YOU THE BEST MAAAN
I've seen many races at Lime Rock and I've turned a few fast laps as well. IMHO Lime Rock is a perfect track for vintage racing. Modern race cars can't really stretch their legs due to it's size. But it's perhaps the nicest track in the northeast. It's perfect as it is.
Lime rock is a track I like from a layout perspective and something I would want to race at in some time but I wish more tracks were like this in the US
Plus it gives me brands hatch/catalunya vibes for the layout
@Shadowguy - I recall some years back when Hans Stuck, Jr. was at the Historic Festival at Lime Rock and over the P.A. system commented on how beautiful the track was and that it reminded him of parts of Germany! Contrast that statement with one from a French driver, who will remain unnamed, who said it looked like a go kart track to him. Not unexpectedly, he received a loud chorus of boos from the loyal Lime Rock crowd!
In Mybroga league we raced online the original Brent Adams Mountain version for Grand Prix Legends last week. It's really a blast!!!
Cool to know my little home track has so much history
Now that Lime Rock has new owners with deep pockets, perhaps something like this will be considered. No Sunday racing and only four unmuffled events per year hurts getting some of the big players. First went there in 1957, been racing (vintage) since 1988. Love the place!
I remember seeing John Fitch at Lime Rock, he had a cool car and was very friendly.
Racing on this track in real life is a blast
Remember driving this on Race 07 way back, but never knew it didn’t actually exist
I only live an hour or so from Lime Rock. I've never been, but this video only gives me more incentive to go.
Also I wish that one day LRP gets an extension
Great video!! Love Lime Rock; beautiful area. Lots of great info some sad but great that a lot of lives have been saved from his inventions. 😊
The layout looks a bit like the Nordschleife, so it would probably run GT3's, but nothing quicker
The IMSA GTP cars would do just over 160 on the short main straightaway in the 1980s!
The highway in my rural WV home county looks like the Lime Rock front stretch. It just ends right after the county line.
I had always heard the the costs of building and maintaining the bridge is what doomed the long course.
Costs in general prohibited building the longer course.
wait, this isn't Queensland Raceway :'D
first I have SouthPawRacer talking race comms in my ear, now I have him whispering sweat nothings about a race track...
Great video, glad you're still at it.
Amazing video. Had no idea about that. I've been to Lime Rock and the track is a beauty.
I loved this circuit on Race 07. 👌
the like to dislike ratio of this video is crazy, well done
God damn thats a pretty looking track. The Bathurst of America that was never was.
I think open wheeled cars would've stopped racing on the mountain layout, excepting maybe Skip Barber and Formula Ford, but it would've been a helluva track to race on. I think sportscars and nascar and spec miata would love this layout though. It'd be safe enough with modern barriers.
Grew up not too far away from Lime Rock, great little track!
We should start a petition to get this made
Best racing channel
From what I've heard some of the land at the base of the hillside where the longer version was to go is too swampy
Very interesting. I've been to Lime Rock many times. I didn't know about this.
That intro was fantastic 😂
I worked in Sharon for 6 years. The amount of new residents formulating petitions to close it down was ridiculous. You chose to buy a house near an auto racing track. Thankfully the track has been working with the church recently to see if racing can occur on Sundays. NASCAR driver Parker Kligerman has been trying to bring a Truck race to the facility.
I love this video. I plan to go to Lime Rock in 2022. I hope you do the original Daytona Road Course
The track map looks a lot like Circuit de Catalunya, but these two couldn't be more different
Aw yes bois. Another track video. I knew you'd cover Lime Rock Mountain at some point! One has to wonder if they'll ever actually complete it :(
I would say that is all but impossible. They are having enough battles over noise with some locals, so any plans to expand are out of the question. LRP has done just fine in its current configuration.
The uphill section is like Mount panorama,
Thank You. I remember John Morton crashing there in the Nissan gtp care. I didn't know about this much history. Thanks so much for what You taught me. Blushes.
Would have been much more akin to Watkin Glen with the longer layout. This virtual layout looks amazing though.
If only we had this version of Lime Rock on Iracing. I might like Lime Rock more.
I've got an unusual suggestion for you, if you're interested.
I've been making a racin game for the past 2 years, called Meh, Street R.I.C.E.r, and in it there's a course for the player to shake down cars they're in the process of unlocking called "seahorse raceway"
It's a course I've made from chopped up bits of thr old top gear circuit. The point is to expose the strengths and weaknesses of the cars to the players. I'd be curious to know your feedback on if it accomplished that goal, if its fun, and any changes you might suggest.
To get to it. Assuming you've just downloaded the game go
Menu screen -> new/continue -> dealership (first choice to the right) -> walk to the back of the first floor to the magazine rack -> select the first magazine (they all have the track, but not all will run properly as of this writing) -> press y on xbox controller to give your opinion on the cars styling -> press a till you're at the drag strip -> complete the acceleration run -> press a to say how slow the car was -> you should be on the circuit (and if I haven't fixed it yet, you should be in the fastest car in the game, with the worst brakes).
It will be a bit difficult because I'm still filling in the circuit, so some turns have no reference points. But you should be able to get the idea of the layout and flow.
Also here's a video of the circuit in the test car, if it's of any help.
ruclips.net/video/_M1LC52p1JY/видео.html
Great video! Building off your what-ifs, I think if the track survived it would have needed a marque event or two (like Bathurst's 1000 and 12hr) to keep the long layout in use. Otherwise I feel like at some point it probably would have gotten a renovation that connects Vaill's to modern turn 2 somehow.
Thank you sir: I WELL remember going to SCCA etc. races w my parents and baby sister when I was about 12 to 14: got a paddock pass b/c one of my father's customers ran two cars including a Corvette just like the one in your vid (there's a photo of me somewhere standing in front of the cars like they're mine) and was let off the parental leash enough to wander around alone and among other things try -- and fail; such a nerd -- to strike up a conversation with the daughter of driver P. L. Newman (that's how he tried to stay under the radar). Also, the cars' exhaust notes bouncing off that mountain as they exited turns 2 and 3? I can hear it now...
Oh I thought I already subscribed. What a shock to find out, that I wasn't. So now here I go: subscribed