I Was that Kid having grown up in a Christian family my Grandfather was a Pastor and my Father a Christian ... I was the prodical son to say the very least ... but my father never Stopped praying for me .... I came to Christ in 2004 I am now 55 my father went to be with the Lord 3 weeks ago. Keep Praying ... JESUS CHRIST NEVER FAILS. 👍
Sobering, ain’t it. I just remembered the sons of the some mighty men in the Bible that got taken out or went astray. Aaron: Moses brother. Samuel the prophet. Even King David’s son Solomon. Scary if you ask me...
Yes, makes perfect sense! After all, God chose the nation of Israel and they failed in faithfulness and obedience time and time again. Yet this is NOT to discredit God's PERFECT management, but instead to highlight humanity's desperate need of a Savior. Thank You, Jesus, for being that Savior
This is very heartbreaking for John you can hear it in his voice. Let's pray that his son repents and believes unto salvation. So that his son will experience the peace of God and no longer be an enemy of God.
John Piper isn't even saved himself. He constantly preaches the concept of final salvation secured by good works. Abraham supposedly left Christianity at 19 only to return a few years later? How was he able to fool his father? The answer is that John Piper himself is a lost, unsaved man. The simple answer I would ask someone to judge their salvation is what must one do to be saved? Acts 16:31 is the answer. Unfortunately, far too many people such as Piper preach works and Lordship Salvation heresy. It astounds me why masses of people continue to support John Piper and his ministry when he teaches heresy. Why would you sympathize with a preacher who opposes self-defense with a firearm and gun ownership?
@@palmtreesmusic1945 He doesn't preaches that, listen to all of his sermons, he says whats James said that FAITH always always finally somehow produces good works, if you listen to Mr. Piper in all his entirety then you'll know
Proverbs 22:6 says train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. Trust God's word is true even when we can't see it. Time is not over yet and Gods grace and patience are beyond us.
I love you Pastor John and my heart breaks for you, because I can see how heartbroken you are over your son and I pray that he himself, becomes a believer and has a divine encounter with God, no matter how it comes, I hope he does.
Piper believes in a lot of the teachings of Calvin and I have heard some who call themselves that say God has just predestined some to hell and others for heaven (based on Romans 9). But I am not sure Piper takes that strict view after listening to him preach. For me, I always take Romans 9 with 2 Peter, where God says he doesn't desire anyone to perish, which shows the heart of God to save.
I've been following John for about 3 years now and just recently heard of Abraham, his son a few months ago. Seeing that this video was made 8 years ago breaks my heart to pieces. Because I know this has probably been an agonizing 8 years for John and still Abraham continues in his disbelief. But I am a prodigal child. A lot of people are condemning Abraham in the comments, and you are right, he is acting prideful, he seems to want to excuse sin in himself and others... And these are not light offenses. He also openly mocks God and the Bible in his tiktoks. But what you don't see on the surface is actually deeper hunger for Truth. He wants so badly to be right. His videos feel like he's making them to convince himself just as much as other people. He wants to be sure. He thinks he's sure... He isn't taking his decision lightly. He's thinking and chewing and if and when he comes to Christ it will be genuine. I strayed to just about the furthest place you can be from God on earth... But I had that same desire for Truth. I thought God couldn't be real or at least not the biblical God for so many of the same reasons he lays out in his videos. I convinced myself over and over about how Jesus couldn't be real or at least wasn't God... He crept into my thoughts whenever I sinned because I was taught about sin at a young age, as Abraham was as well. That's why Abraham can't stop making these videos and talking about it. He is being in some ways "haunted" by Christ. He is trying to make the ghost of Christ leave him by convincing himself and others that He's not true.... But he can't. Nothing he ever does or says will ever get Christ to leave him alone if he is His. God reached me in a big way when I least expected it and I never thought I would devote my life to say that Jesus Christ is 💯 exactly who He claimed to be and that the Bible is factually and spiritually correct in every way. God can reach Abraham. If he's truly in his heart searching for Truth, he WILL find it. I see a glimmer of hope... It's dim. But it's there. Brothers and sisters, pray for him and John. Don't condemn either of them. Just pray healing over them and total reconciliation. ♥️♥️♥️♥️ God bless anyone who took the time to read this If anyone here is an "atheist" and agrees with Abraham Piper and is here as a fan of his, I pray that you examine your life, if you ever feel His ghost "judging" you for your actions. Then examine God and His word. Don't get caught in the semantics. Start with Jesus in the gospels... See if you can find fault with Him first. Focus on His words and actions. Read them until you understand. Then, Jesus can help you make sense of the old testament. It's real... It's all real. It sounds crazy but I'm telling you it's true and it's actually better than you ever thought possible ♥️
I feel the same. His behaviour to me seems to be a reaction to maybe the way he was "forced" into the faith. Most people don't start out as strong believers in God. Its usually lifes experiences that leads us to God. I feel like a child in his position would have had a very difficult time. Not afforded the same space and privacy to grow and experience. There would have been a lot of pressure on him to "believe" because of how it would reflect on his father. His current views seem to be an angry counter reaction to that pressure. Very sad - pray for both of them.
Jess, thank you for your testimony, as I was reading your comments, I thought to myself that this needs to be posted on Abraham’s tiktok posts. I don’t have tiktok, so I don’t even know if it’s possible to comment on there, but it would be good for his followers to hear your testimony. God bless.
@@michaelparsons541 That's an interesting thought. The problem with tiktok commenting is that you can only comment 150 characters at a time... but maybe I can try to put a few comments in there... plant some seeds. 🙏🏻💗
a good post Jess. But I wonder if there`s another factor at play here. From what I`ve read John is a good man. Maybe a very good man. But he embraces Calvinism so passionately that he`s one of the most prominent modern evangelists for it. But think what it teaches - that there`s such a group of people as the "non-elect", people who are incapable of ever becoming part of the elect. But it will be these very people who will be kept supernaturally alive for ever and ever without parole in a state of fiery torment. Double wammy of the highest order! If people are thought that evil then it is bound to effect the mindset of the onlooking elect person. Which can only lead to a certain hardness of character. I`m glad that Steve Gregg of the narrow path ministry showed me a way of understanding scripture that doesn`t force me to believe in these two doctrines. If you choose to, that`s your call. But I`m glad I am free from that. The cross of Christ is heavy enough without that burden too.
@@alpinewonders I personally don't look at it as "the non-elect is incapable of being part of the elect"... I look at the elect vs non-elect as this: The elect is whom God knew from the beginning of time would come to Him of their own free will, because God saw the end from the beginning and still chose to create the world. FOR HIS ELECT. The non-elect were those whom He knew that He could appear before them in all His Glory and they would still reject Him, like lucifer and the demons did. I also don't think it's possible for us to know who the elect and non-elect truly is until Christ's return. We can only be sure of our own salvation but people are capable of saying and doing all kinds of things while their heart (devotion) is truly elsewhere. For good or bad.. for example, a truly saved Christian can be caught up in habitual sin (that he hates) that might "disqualify" him to the rest of the world but he has a personal relationship with God and is growing in sanctification daily... and a seemingly "perfect" Christian, like a pastor etc, can say and do all the right things and yet not truly believe in his heart and may not be saved, and is not growing or changing...with or without any big, habitual sins I'm not sure if this makes me Calvinist or Arminian or what... but I believe God is sovereign over it all and also will not ever impede on our free will. To not have mindless robots, He gave us free will... and one major cost of giving creation pure free will is also creating the non-elect. John actually helps me see both sides of the argument pretty clearly, even though his explanations are more from the Calvanist perspective. Honestly, the more I wrestle with this, the more I see that it's a big circle that doesn't seem to matter very much in the end. 1. God is Sovereign over all things 2. We have free will 3. We are not saved by good works but by faith in Jesus alone I think we all agree on number 3, Calvinism emphasizes 1 and Arminianism emphasizes 2 but I see it as "Yes And" because God knows who His Bride is... He created this world for us but He never forces us to choose Him. He will have His Bride.... He will have every single one He calls and not lose any of them. The ones who do not come to Him, would have never under any circumstance ever come to Him under their own free will. We can't harden our hearts because we do not know who is elect and who isn't.. it's impossible for us to see.. so we must be faithful to do what He calls us to do at every turn with our conscience and cling to Him. I'll look up Steve Gregg as I've never heard of him.. 😀
Didn't know about Abraham's state until a little over a week ago, when his ill-informed viral post was brought up by a couple of Christian RUclipsrs. I stand with Dr. Piper in praying for Abe's genuine salvation.
@@TheHoriginal Thank you. It's Hebrew, meaning "GOD is ancient, first, or first to move". It's from the Scriptures. Books of Ezra & Nehemiah. The name of either one or two different men. If two, then one was a Levite, who aided with the spiritual reformation of the people of Israel after their return from Exile.
This happened in our family too... But the Lord is faithful! Alleluia!! My father in law, as a pastor, did the right thing according to the Bible and after 17 years of prayer and waiting, finally his prodigal son returned to home as a believer. Praise the Lord. And the Lord returned to him not only his son, but also a daughter in law (me) as believers. Our Lord is merciful and we will thank Him forever
Did they keep in touch during that time? I love this outcome. Just wondering if contact was still attempted even while the son was searching? I can't give up on my family. Even if we don't believe the same I want them near me💔
@@creolekween I think every situation is different, and only the Spirit can guide you in the right thing to do. The Lord will guide you, in Jesus's name I give you only my personal testimony. They didn't keep in touch for the first 10 years, and it was a very hard suffering for them, but they wanted to put God first. They only wrote some letters to their son, explaining their love and the Love of Christ for Him, and explained their position with biblical references. My husband sometimes didn't read the letters, but I read all of them and started to understand their point of view and the meaning of following the Lord Jesus without compromise and really appreciated their faith. After 10 years we married and invited them, but they decided to not go to our marriage to put God first. The year after they called us to their home to talk together and restart the relationship, and they invited us to make a travel to stay together for a full week. I was angry with them and didn't want to go, but at the end we decided to go and that travel was a great blessing for us. During the travel I had the opportunity to know them deeply and to see the light and the love that filled their lives and began to desire to have the same love in my heart. During that period the Lord gave me also suffering and hillness, but when I was with them I felt well, only when I was with them and I started to think about this.. They gave me a Bible and I started to read it and listen to my father in law's teachings and after one year Christ came into my heart and my life changed completely, Alleluia!!! My husband became a real Christian after 6 years, but now we have all in Christ and we thank the Lord for the patience He had with us. Thank Jesus!
Salvation does not rely on the parents but God. Management and salvation are two different things. My heart breaks for his son and will be Praging for him!
Fake, copied from Hinduism, check no.2 and 3 below: 20 IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE that proved Bible God is likely FAKE, don't miss the last paragraph that explains them all: 1) A CREATOR god claimed to be ALMIGHTY should be the oldest and only religion but all the pagans, Greek, Chinese, Hinduism religions existed earlier. 2) Many of the Bible's mythologies was very similar with older pagans, Greek, Egyptian or Hinduism religions(note the names too) E.g. Adam/Eve with Atman/Jiva, big flood and survivor Noah/3 sons with Manu/3 daughters although cause of flood is different. Abraham/Sarah with Brahma/Saraswathi, Moses with Krishnu etc 3) Jesus similarities with Buddha. Maya to Mary, miracle pregnancy to virgin pregnancy, birth during a journey home to from home, prophesied soon after birth, both had a disciple who betrayed them, walked on water, Gautama left the palace at age 29 and Jesus appeared at 29, Gautama became Buddha at 35 and Jesus died and resurrected at around 35 too, Buddha had a big meal while Jesus had a last supper before they died, after they passed away, 500 arahants witnessed compilation of Buddha's teachings and over 500 witnesses to Jesus's resurrection etc. All coincidental ? Beside Buddha, Jesus was also found to be copied from other figures. Surely they can't be ALL coincidental. 4) Why should an almighty and all knowing God allowed their people to branch off and kill their parent religion Judaism or Zoroatruism and later allowed Islam to be created and had holy wars/crusades with Christianity ? "Free will" as an excuse is not acceptable as earlier they claimed their God killed all people with a big flood(without freewill) because they sinned. 5) The way they collect tithings during Sunday mass is so tricky. They know people will be shy not to pay or to pay less when others could be watching. This is why they don't just use a money box like Buddhism, Hinduism or Chinese temples where people can donate anytime. Catholics and Islam later even made it bigger by suggesting donation of a certain percentage of their income. 6) The Bible condemned non-followers, clearly mentioned in Mark's words 16:16. Why should a Creator God's religion condemn non-believers when in the first place, they claimed their God created the world? Isn't this like playing both sides of the same coin, both good and evil ? 7)Not knowing why or how the world exists don't mean that it was created by a god. Now "Creator" idea got stale, they use "Intelligent Design" What is so intelligent in its design? If people don't need to go to toilet and don't have unpleasant feelings or sufferings, then I will call it an intelligent design. 8) The Bible is full of sex, lust, incest and desires in Cor, Gen, Lev & Solomon's part, beside evil and violence. Their God killed countless people when Satan only killed a few. 9)Wisdom, mindfulness and meditaion are not taught or encouraged by them because they don't want their followers' minds to be clearer and wiser. 10)The Bible copied very much from older religions but not the theory of karma because karma idea defeats the purpose of the all mighty God and it will prevent people from doing bad deeds. Saying God love or forgive sins is a trick playing both sides of the coin. 11) If there is a loving God, why are there Christian babies born with disease or innocent children being abused or died young ? 12) It don't makes sense to claim that only their believers will go to heaven and others don't since they claimed their God created all people. Such claim is an insult to other religions and cultures and caused people to divide. A good religion should be non-sectarian, secular and treat all people equally. 13)Most major festivals and holidays related to Christianity are fake including Christmas(Jesus can't be born in winter), Easter, Thanksgiving, Good Friday, All Souls, Halloween and even New Year are copied from paganism. 14) Using fear like hell or "end of the world" every 2 years but we are still here. 15) The fraud case of Mother Teresa(Google it) and after she died, those money she collected was not returned to India. 16)If their God is all-mighty, why need missionaries to convert others ? 17) The ongoing child sex abuses committed by the pastors/priests that I read so often. 18) The Bible condemned dogs because they know dogs are man's best friend. Making men lonely is the best way to keep them dependant on religion. 19) If God created everybody, why then condemn LGBT or other religions ? 20) Incidents, eg: (a) Covid-19 highest fatalities rate countries are all highly religious, 700K Americans alone !! (b)The Air Asia plane crash of 2019 killed 41 church members, 2 missionaries and their few month old baby. (c) spree killings happened inside a church etc Only 1 reason can tie up all 20 points above, this God was fake and man-made to con or control people.
There’s nothing unique or inspiring about Abraham Piper. He’s merely reciting tired old skeptical lines of attack and riding his father’s reputation to internet fame. My heart breaks for pastor John.
Honestly I have sympathy for Abraham also. Its very clear he is scarred and damaged from having so much emphasis on his faith journey at such a young age - by being "forced" to believe - rather then allowed to come to knowledge and understanding on his own in privacy without being "pursued" with the threat of excommunication. My guess is if he grew up with his faith in less of a spotlight - maybe a more forgiving environment like most of us where his dad wasn't a prominant well known pastor and going through the normal teenage faith exploration stage he may well have come back to the faith - but due to his fathers public pastor position he wasn't afforded the grace, privacy and personal growth most of us are allowed to have on our faith journeys because of how it would reflect on his father/the church. He now seems "scarred" and damaged from people trying to force him to believe with threats and consquences of which I think is natural. Its easy to see why he has an axe to grind with religion. He clearly has a lot of anger towards the church and I think when you hear about how it was handled and think about how we would feel in the same position its easy to see why. Publically excommunicated at 19 - who wouldnt have an issue with the church ? You can feel his anger in the videos - very sad. Prayers for both him and his father.
Maybe only came to me due to a recent experience. I went to a christian conference last weekend - and the leader of the conference I know and she had forced her child to come under duress. He was 16 and did not want to be there - at all. I witnessed the "pressure" people can feel when they hold these positions to get their children/family to believe. It comes from a space of love - they know god and they want their children to know God ...... but I watched how it can manifest and the reaction of the son - which was strong resistance, aversion and anger to being "forced". I recall where I was in my own faith journey at the same age and thought of how I would have reacted if my parents had done the same with me at this age. Its very sad how the more we can try to force someone to come to God even with best intentions - sometimes the less likely it is to happen. We have to respect each individuals faith journeys and lead people delicately and kindly. I spoke with her later over lunch and asked her how her faith journey started and she said it had come through her infertility issues / miscarriages and inability to conceive children - and the death of her neice from cancer. I want to speak with her again soon to remind her that her own faith wasn't always the way it is now - and it was through her life experiences that she came to know God the way she does now. That she needs to give her son the same space and respect he hasn't had the experiences she has - and cant just magically jump to where she is now in his faith journey no matter how much she wants him to. That continuing to force him may be very counter productive and lead to a negative outcome. Really don't want her to end up in a similar position to John and his son.
@@David-_-_- I recently stumbled upon this video because of the recent talks about his son on social media. This coming right after I did a study from Chip Ingram's "Effective Parenting in a defective world." And there is a stark contrast between these two pastors and I can't emphasize how much Chip, as an influential and internationally renowned pastor and as a father, would have stepped away from his ministry to bring his prodigal son home. Watch the videos, it's a breath of fresh air, especially because he emphasizes the bond we must build between parents and child (video mark 25:00 part 1). ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=effective+parenting+in+a+defective+world
@@David-_-_- you are making alot baseless assumptions. Blaming the environment rather than actual son and his rebellion. Abraham had an unconverted son. Ishmael . God , and his first created humans in a perfect environment , rebelled against their maker. And we are now born in sin with a sinful nature, left to our own devices unless regenerate will not and can not please God. Mat 10 34“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38
I can hear the pain and sorrow in his voice....man.. God bless you John Piper. May God transform your son into a prodigal one. He is always able. This is one of, If not the greatest fear I have when/if I have kids in the future by God's grace. Idk if there is anything more terrifying that comes to mind.
I am aware this is an old video but it came up on my feed and this subject hits close to home. My husband has just recently gone back to ministry after being g away for a while. Our children were raised in a Christian home and my husband went into ministry as a pastor beginning in our late twenties. After they grew up both our children walked away from the Lord. Our son has never returned. And though our daughter attends a church and serves there she lives a double life. We live in a state of permanent heart break and sadness and pray for our children daily and will never stop.
Many of us have walked away and come back and done great things for the Lord. Bless God for the seeds you have already planted. Bless God for his Holy Spirit working on their hearts. Bless God for all praying parents who have the tenacity to keep praying. Don't you ever give up. May the Lord answer your prayers.
Your prayers will bear fruit. That is what God says and I can testify to that: if it wouldn't be for the prayers of my parents, I would not be where I am, serving God and surrounding myself with fiery people, desiring a holy life style and finding joy and satisfaction in the plans of God. Please, do never stop praying for your children and declaring the Word of God over them! Nobody really knows what God is still sparing them because of it. Much love from Germany.
Churches need more outreach to broken hearted parents. I'm in that group with you sister. In these days, time is of the essence for Jesus is coming soon.
Let's not compare God with mere men. And scriptures are clear if you can't lead your own family, then you should lead others. By the way there was never supposed to be a head pastor... Only a group of elders.
@@SG-jv5zi What then do you make of this passage from Acts? Now in those days, when the disciples were multiplying, grumbling arose among the Hellenists against the Hebrews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily support. So the Twelve called together the whole group of the disciples and said, “It is not right for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables. So, brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, full of the Spirit and wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this duty. But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the service of the Word.” The statement pleased the whole group; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Ruach ha-Kodesh , and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch. They placed these men before the emissaries; and after praying, they laid hands on them. The word of God kept on spreading, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem greatly multiplied; even a great number of the kohanim were becoming obedient to the faith. Now Stephen, full of grace and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people. Acts 6:1-8 TLV bible.com/bible/314/act.6.1-8.TLV
@@banemaler Yes but as those who appoint the appointees, they have oversight and power to... disappoint? A hierarchy is created according to the way things work as ordained ultimately by God.
@@SG-jv5zi you know what the analogy is and you missed the point. He did manage his family well. They’re just hasn’t been the outcome that is desirable as of yet. Your view of church government is not the only one laid out in the scriptures, but it is certainly a model. In the book of revelation, you find that John writes to the “Angel “or or the messenger of each particular group, so there you go. I believe in a plurality of elders, but with one senior elder, and that elder should have someone in his life, speaking into him, or several people for sure. I believe in accountability, but I don’t believe in a group of elders, or deacon possessed people holding, the man of God back from preaching and teaching the strong word of God by the spirit of God and making decisions. In addition to this, regardless of what type of church government, you have, if our hearts are not integral, and willing to do God‘s will, the enemy can use any form of church government, he pleases, and have a hay day in our lives. so the answer is not just what Right church government is because I do not believe there is one model, but they answer is that we all have the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom. If we have this, we will succeed in the plan of God.
Because pastor John has a grip on God and an understanding of the Gospel like I have never heard before, the waywardness of his son is almost a given, because the enemy wants to shut him up. We know from the story of Job that what is happening to pastor John and his son has not caught God by surprise and God is and will be glorified through this situation in their lives. None know the outcome except God. Knowing that, I hope and suspect pastor John can and does take some comfort in our Lord's care and providence.
Listen to the heart of a father: COMPASSION through and through. I could literally hear his voice crack. God bless you Pastor John. I'd keep you and your son in my prayers.
Just prayed for you. I know your heart is broken for him. Thank you for all your Biblical teaching. It has encouraged me in so many ways in my life,& brought me back from giving up completely twice. Praise God for your gift of teaching.
This is so hard. In our case we have 12 children and 28 grand children. Of the 12, our 4 daughters are no problem... following the Lord with everything. Of our 8 sons 3 are not doing well at all, one even changed his name. We have definitely backed off from a lot of ministry in the past 7 or so years. I love what your church did and how they handled this John. We continue to press on and in and put our trust in God. Thanks for sharing this.
Alan, perhaps you should stop measuring the success of your children by their susceptibility to indoctrination. Perhaps you should measure it by their ability to think for themselves and work out the ways of the world through independent critical though. You are probably a real nice guy, but have you ever thought that those 3 may be doing better than the other 9? They have it right, and the rest have it wrong. Your faith probably blinds you to this fact. What abuse does a parent have to do to his child to make that child change his name? Shame on you.
@@pomegranatepip2482 Too bad you have no idea what you're talking about because you have no knowledge of the circumstances. Your opinion is noted and rejected.
@@alansenecal5548 you know what - you are right. That last bit was uncalled for and I genuinely apologise. The rest I stand by though. The way you wrote your comment suggested to me that you judge your children’s success by their belief or lack thereof. You are assuming that there is a god. Perhaps that’s where you are going wrong. If my parents had continued to minister to me after I dropped my faith for reason and enlightenment, I know it would have been a major source of resentment if not drive me away from them.
Did you actually watch the video? When did he say say that? When did he step back? The video is literally explaining why he didn’t quit his role. I, as well as other people in the comments, think that he should.
I thank God I stepped back from pastoring with it's heavy demands and worked with my hands to spend more time with wife and family... far, far more important to be faithful in the small things right before you and when you have grace to do that well ...then become teachers, elders/pastors... too many have it the other way around.. I was still able to lead people to Christ, disciple them...and thank God my 3 kids and families are walking in the faith... most important in these dark and troubling times. And I believe Abraham is a prodigal who will one day enable us to see the glory and faithfulness of God
I think it's such a shame what John's son is doing. He must know he's riding on his father's coat-tails and using that to attack the faith. It's a horrid way to treat your father.
I see both sides. I feel like because of John Pipers position a lot of pressure and force was excerted on Abrahans faith journey because of how it would reflect on his father and the church. Excommunicated at 19 .... just wow. No wonder he is scarred now and angry at the faith. What 19 year old didn't have doubts about God ? I certainly wasn't the model christian at this age - but I was allowed space to learn, grow - make some mistakes and then returned to the faith wiser. Sometimes faith is not a straight line and when you try to "force" someone to believe because of how it will reflect on you ...... you actually damage their faith journey irepairably and drive them away from God. Simply allowing them some provacy and space to grow and come to understanding on their own can result in completely different outcomes.
@@David-_-_- Thanks for sharing both sides of the story. Without this information it's easy to jump to (partially wrong) conclusions. I also wondered how the relationship with his dad, helped or hindered his spiritual journey. We may never know, and I don't like to speculate. I feel sympathy for Abraham, even tho I don't agree with his views.
@@laurapiovan9121 Yes agree. Pray for both of them. My insight only came because of a recent experience where I attended a christian conference. I knew the organizer of the conference and she had "forced" her 16 year old sonm to attend under duress. I could see a great deal of anger from him towards her - and the faith in general - due to being forced into it and not given a choice. I then thought about how I would have reacted at the same age if I was in the same position as my faith was not strong at 16. It gave me an insight into the difficulty people in prominant leadership positions have when raising children and the different pressures and expections this puts on the children and how it can manifest negatively. Sometimes "less is more". We can guide people but you need to allow people to discover God in their own ways and time otherwise it can have the opposite effect of whats desired. Also you can see from Johns answer how the pressure of how his sons non belief reflects on him as a pastor and how this would then influence their relationship. Such a difficult and complex situation.
@@David-_-_- He wasn't just having doubts like everyone does..... And the father didn't expect him to be exactly perfect. You should be sure of what actually happened before making such comments . And... Human laws jail people of 18years.... What's your point?? Does he not know the right thing to do?? Or is excommunication not scriptural? I think you should be slow to make such comments and is ready go learn about what actually happened.. Was he excommunicated for a minor thing?? 🙄
@@David-_-_- I don't know where you got the idea of this soft is less.. Or how you can gauge being soft and differentiate it from being negligent. These men understand their role and how they are accountable to God....look at Samuel, Look at Eli etc. And... You make these statements without having any concrete idea of what happened??? The father made the girl hi under duress?? Huh huh.... That's too much for you to say! Be careful of how you speak, brother.
That may be the worst reasoning I’ve ever heard from JP. “The verse can’t mean what it clearly says because I can find a silly way to interpret it. Therefore I can generalize and effectively disregard it.” Wow.
I know some pastors are more dedicated to their positions as a pastor than as a father. I believe God would have it the other way around. I think that is one meaning behind the scriptures being spoken about. If a man is good at leading his family, he will probably do well at leading a flock. And, yes, that doesn't guarantee perfection! But, we should always look at the character of the man outside of the Church setting.
This is a heart broken and the saddest thing for a parent who is a believer and his/her children are not, wow, I can hear and feel his pain in his voice, let’s pray for him and for all the nonbelievers children and/or parents 🙏🏼😢 God bless pastor John Piper.🙏🏼
The next generation is built up by the power of kneeling mothers and fathers for the salvation of their wayward sons and daughters. Godly parents can only do so much because salvation comes from the Lord, not from the family. My older Christian colleagues are prayer warriors because of the hard hearts of their children, and it will take years of loving them into the kingdom, but if God is patient, then we can be too.
To know that you poured your heart out all of these years being faithful to Jesus/Yeshua even though your son not only rejects God, but blatantly opposes him makes my level of respect for you go even higher. No one is born "saved" and we all are responsible for how we respond to Christ whether we had good examples or not. The pain in your voice is heartbreaking and I hope your Son sees the light and repents.
God's work is not perfect? Of course, there is a dual reality here one in which all of God's children are his and one in which his heart broke for those who are not.
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:20
Yes but that is the old testament, what does it say in the new testament? This makes me so sad, our children walked away from the Lord and our son has never returned.
Somehow a father suffers for the iniquity and a son too. Abraham and his sons, King David and his sons, Jacob and his sons, Judah and his sons. Whenever they sinned there was a consequence.
@@shalompanna Hi Shalom, Ezekiel 18:20 means that God does not impune someone guilt of sinning on another person when He judges(which will be the case ultimately on Judgement day when individual books shall be opened). A classic example our Lord Jesus still suffered the effects of the sin riddled world(which culminated to being bodily killed) but was sinless before God. 'For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin' Heb 4:15
@Xender Xed she is sad because she has been brainwashed into thinking her kids will go to hell. It’s that good old ‘terrify people with hell to keep them in line’ thing. Problem is that when their kids ‘stray’ from this foul immoral belief structure, they get scarred for them.
@@pomegranatepip2482 please just read the words of Jesus from the New Testament. He did quite a lot of terrifying people. Or read John the Baptist’s message from Luke 2. His preaching was terrifying.
I love you pastor John, it is to Gods Glory, he will use this for his GLORY, not for us to enjoy but for his GLORY. Keep preaching Gods Word and his truth! Thank you for your service to the kingdom
He is absolutely correct that good management doesn’t equate to perfect households. People have to go find their own God at some point. Not their parents God. His sons has a journey. The parent’s job once they are grown is to pray without ceasing!
I can honestly say a good tree cannot bare bad fruit if our children turn out to be rebellious then it’s our fault as parents somewhere down the line we failed them and missed God but we don’t want to look at the reality of it and say we messed up as well or we dont have the truth thats what it really comes down to God want us to be perfect I don’t understand how we keep rolling with that statement when he clearly says be ye perfect for I am perfect he say don’t sin at all but we do that’s why we lose the way but it is totally possible not to sin
@@johnward2650 No it’s not always the parents fault. We all have a choice and our children make their own choices regardless of how they were raised. My parents were fake Christians and played church, even teaching classes on Sunday’s but never spoke about Jesus or salvation or anything at home. So even with good parenting and teaching the Bible, John’s kid walked away. My parents didn’t reach the Bible and weren’t real Christians and I became a Christian later in my late 20’s. Besides, we know salvation is the work of the Lord from start to finish anyways. None of us would believe without the grace of God. Doesn’t matter how the parents raise the kids. It is God’s choice from start to finish. That’s why we pray for salvation. Only God can change their hearts and lead them to repentance. A child not claiming Jesus who was raised by a true Christian is proof that we are chosen. We don’t choose God without him first choosing us and we can’t. Grace and peace to you.
@@DangSensei77 I’m saying reason why his kids walked away it’s bc that wasn’t the way of God I’m telling you a good tree cannot bare bad fruit if John was a good tree all his kids will be good it’s impossible for you to be a good tree and have a bad fruit I think the problem is we have been taught wrong I mean we have our own interpretation and not the truth and your right God do choose certain people to bring us out the hell were in bc of our forefathers if they had got it right we want be in this situation
@Lil Laidee Adam and Eve wasn’t his son and daughter they were his creation Jesus was his only begotten son you have to born of the spirit before you be Gods son and daughter and to do that you have to live according to Gods statue then he will adopt you if you still sinning then your not his son or daughter
Yes that seems right to me too. Obviously, then, the translators have erred in transcribing this sentence. Obedient to parents is one thing. Believing is another thing that is out of the control of the parent.
@@conanlabiche the same scripture those are using against this man 1Timothy3:4. In regard to whatever bible translation of this passage, for someone to suggest that children who are not believers is somehow the fault of the parents is absurd, some of the commenters having also interpreted Paul's view to be this way when all Paul says is that the children must be obedient under the authority of the parents. When they grow up and leave home, they are no longer subject to that authority.
%1000 and this is extremely important message! Many children of godly parents never taught about it and attend a church just been a sinners who happened to know about God but never born again. So if those been excommunicated who do we excommunicate? Sinners? Yes! Not fair!
My heart goes out to Pastor John, few things can be more devastating for a parent. Mercy and love needs to be shown, not in denying sin, but in loving souls into right relationship.
Pastor John, this is why I respect you immensely and gain so much from your messages. I am reading your very long book on the providence of God right now. Thank you so much for sticking to your convictions and for your ministry.
Pastor, I respect you with my whole heart ❤, I don't know how much it's hurting you, but our God is a good God he will get your son back he died for us on the cross knowing that we are still sinners, Jesus's love can't be dodged and it will overcome your son, God's love is greater, Jesus is for you, not against you. We pray in Jesus name that all forces working against God's plan in your sons life be broken right now. And he finds the truth and peace and love of Jesus.
When we are on the front line for Jesus, the enemy’s attacks are more fierce and often he does it through our children. We experienced that if we keep strong in the battle and keep interceding in due time we’ll see the breakthrough! It’s a spiritual battle.
sometimes that is just a smokescreen to hide behind. blame it on the devil when you know full well that you lived a double life. acted one way in church and another way at home. the kids see through the hypocrisy. or a parent who will put "their" ministry ahead of their own kids thereby neglecting their own children. then when they are actually home they are so tired that they are just sleeping or have no time or patience for their own children. how do you expect those kids to grow up when they are forced to live in environments like that? do you really think that they are going to have warm fuzzy feelings towards their parents or towards God? the church just loves to make spiritual sounding excuses and then hide behind them. heres something that you might want to try with your children who are not christians, how about if this describes you, you humble yourself before your children and acknowledge the wrongs that you have done to them and inflicted upon them. then ask them for their forgiveness. instead of always just blaming the devil really take a look at yourself
@@loyevangelists he could start by apologising for brainwashing his kid with this nonsense. That would probably go some way to healing. That said, he’s to invested in it to duck out now. Sad indeed.
Thank you Pastor John for responding to the question so genuinely, while going through your own pain on the topic. Your honesty went before the answer itself. 🙏🙏
It’s sad but being a minister bears so much responsibility, it is so important. This is why the Bible says that he who cannot hold down his home cannot any better handle the Body of Christ. There are many other ways to serve the Lord, but ministers must be men who can raise people in good faith and are wise stewards. Therefore, if you can’t minister because of this fact don’t take it personally and don’t desire power in the church, for it is all in the best interest for the children of God.
Appreciate this video. I wondered about your feelings on your son. The children have to make their own way. I'd say the only way you should at all be held accountable is if you had done something specifically that caused his unbelief. Prayers for him and your ministry through I'm sure a difficult situation.
Unless you've lived it, you have no idea of the pressure that is put on pks (pastors kids). It is a wonder they don't all leave the church, just to get some semblance of a normal life. And, when this young man wants to think for himself (and perhaps develop his own faith) you kick him out.
This is why Paul says it's better to not have a wife or children if a man is planning to pursue a calling to ministry. A pastor's child endures almost all of the same pressures that the pastor does without the wisdom and discernment brought about from years of experience and spiritual growth.
I think about that sometimes. It had to have ripped his heart out. He didn't live to see the evilness of Solomon but just because a father is righteous doesn't mean he'll pass it on to his kids I guess
But also have to take into account that we are living in a new covenant with God. I listened to what his son had to say and he was talking about his upbringing, Christianity is not an obligation it is a choice that you make daily, you respond to a call from God and then you follow that call. How many will ask for a drop of water like the rich man who went to hell, yet we have the opportunity to find The Well that never runs dry.. knock and it shall be opened, search and you shall find. With John Piper his very teachings is now haunting him with the whole 'elect and chosen' story. Maybe he can be lead to true salvation with this story of his son.
@@sion1677 I do believe that there is still a place in Heaven for Absolom because I don't believe that Absolom knew what he was doing, I think Satan planted the seeds of discord and what does the enemy do? STEAL. KILL. DESTROY. I believe hundred percent that Solomon is saved and in Heaven. When it comes to being saved, all we can do is pray for his son that Jesus Christ who came in the flesh touches him so that his son can respond to Christ and not the religion around him but the actual Christ who died on the cross and rose again. I've seen a lot of people turn away from God because of strict religious rules that are the rules of men and not from God. This is how the enemy turns the hearts away from God in our post-modern world. The enemy uses both religion, the father and the household against the children and the children against God. Let's pray that he has a REAL ENCOUNTER with Jesus, not through Calvinism, not through religion but through the Holy Ghost so he experiences Jesus one to one
@@thatsreelcreative I agree with, I don't pronounce judgement on whether someone is in heaven or in hell because I am not able to see inside hearts and God alone has that authority. I don't know how God determines who goes to heaven and who not according to the first covenant, i don't really have interest in that because it has no bearing on my own salvation. Alot of things that happened to people in the first covenant was to teach us certain things for example when we learn about king Solomon we learn about wisdom and the importance thereof and that wisdom cannot keep your heart from turning to idolatry, like king Solomon. The we learn about king David who had a heart after God, he lacked wisdom at certain points yet he did not enter into idolatry. With God we need balance in everything, we need a heart after God and we need wisdom. Indeed we should pray for him for true salvation because what he has been taught and told has already condemned him, God did not condemn him but this teachings which he has been exposed to. I honestly can hear the cry in that boys voice in his first video. We as people from the Gentile fold should be carefulhow we speak about the grace of God. The grace of God is not limited to one group or one denomination.
If more leaders had John Piper's courage and integrity the church would be enriched. Praying for reconciliation, restoration and comfort to Pastor John and family.
In my study and understanding the key word in this discussion is child/children. When this is considered in the overall context of the passage, it clearly was meant to and is demonstrating the functionality and leadership of a husband/father’s role as the shepherd of his personal “flock”, and nothing more needs or should be added to it. It simply infers, in no uncertain terms that a man with unruly and ungodly children lacks the wisdom, skill, commitment and even the faith, or in one word he lacks the “ability” to adequately lead his own home, and in this he is disqualified from any pastoral leadership in the Church. As a child transitions from childhood to adulthood not only does their role and responsibility in the family/home change, but so does our role and responsibility to them. I am sorry to hear that your son has turned away from his faith, but as an adult his “fall” has no reflection on you and neither should nor would it play ANY role in your qualifications as a Pastor/leader in ministry. If you or anyone else finds themselves under the authority of a church that wrongly uses this passage to prevent men from taking positions of pastoral leadership, I would strongly advise that through prayerful consideration you find a new place to worship and serve. If a church can’t rightfully interpret and teach on such a basic and clearly laid out subject, then surely they won’t get the much deeper and complicated doctrines and theology correct. Blessings, adam
Way to uptight, if child is a unbeliever, be patient and lead by example, and pray for them, that the holy spirit will come upon them and they will be like the prodical son. And you will be the father waiting with open arms.
Perhaps this child is happy? Those of us that dropped Christianity are typically happier after having done so. Casting off the shackles of a jealous capricious god is a fantastic feeling. Love me or burn in hell for eternity......well, sorry, but you can worship that god if you admire that kind of jealous hate filled immorality. You can keep him and those of us who have cast him off shall welcome the son to the enlightenment.
@@BrendanMurrayJubana because I am curious and hope to flick a little spark of seeking truth into the minds of others. Something wrong with that? I guess also telling a child that it will go to hell and burn in fire for eternity if it moves away from God could be considered child abuse, as would be telling a parent that their child will burn in hell through their failure. Imagine yo the emotional distress a parent must go through thinking how their failure will result in this. It’s disgusting. Scoring a parent as done lower down on 9 out of 12 kids is sick and dehumanising and the concept of a deity willing to burn someone in hell for eternity for not believing in him sounds like a pretty immoral jealous arsehole of a god. I personally went through a lot of anguish for many years seeking a relationship with God. I worried about what was wrong with me and why I could not establish such a relationship, and then one day I thought to myself....”perhaps there is no god and therefore no relationship to be had”. I started looking at this religion from outside in, and boy did it all just start making sense to me. When I realised that man created god, and not the other way around a massive burden was lifted from my heart, I could breathe again. I became the master of my own universe. It’s an unimaginably powerful sensation, and awesome.
@@pomegranatepip2482 sorry to hear about your troubled upbringing and your confused understanding of Christianity 😔. I hope you find the true meaning of grace and forgiveness and be able to let that anger eating at you go.
Dr. Rev. Billy Graham & his wife's son was also a prodigal. They never stopped loving him, praying for him, ministering to him. Franklin eventually found his way back & is still being greatly used by God & blessed. There are many faithful servants who find themselves in the same situation of having a wayward child. They may not be in the spotlight as some others but that still doesn't diminish the pain & agony that it brings. I am a retired ordained minister & our daughter is a wayward child. Our ministry is to her, to model God's love & grace with the ultimate goal being restoration.
June 1st will mark 40 years in ministry for me... all in one place, so I've seen the movie go by for three generations. My observations have been if there are multiple children in a family, all raised in church by believing parents and all of them serve the Lord but one, then that is very difficult to explain. However, if there are multiple children raised in church by "believing" parents and none of them want anything to do with serving God, then something more than likely went wrong at home I will stand with Pastor John praying and believing for his son's salvation and redemption. As long as he has breath, there is a path to repentance.. 2 Timothy 2:25- and perhaps God will grant him a repentance...
Al, the reason people don’t believe in god is either because their elders have not done a good enough job in indoctrinating them, or despite their efforts at indoctrination, the child has the kind of personality that means that they assess and seek truth through logic and fact, as opposed to bribery and the other nonsense in the various holy texts around the world. I guess that’s why the Bible encourages you to believe and not think for yourself, and why all faiths bribe you into believing at some imagined peril if you don’t. In the Christian case it’s a case of God saying that he loves us, but if we don’t believe in him we will burn in hell for eternity. I hope you are open minded enough to see the vile immorality of such a disgusting proposition, but I guess if you are a pastor, I guess not.
@@pomegranatepip2482 parents who have multiple children dont always raise them all the exact same way. many times parents relax their standards as they have more children
@@jbjoeychic so, I’m a troll why, because I have a different perspective on life that does not fit into your fragile religious world-view? Are you so insecure in your faith, or so terrified of your imaginary god that my presenting a different view for folks to think about is a threat to you? What’s wrong with you?
Not having come to Christ yet as a child is different than a son engaging in open rebellion against God having known the Truth. A pastor stepping down is obedience to the Word. It does not mean there is no place for that pastor in the church.
There is a time To;? And a time Not To;? We need to know the times. I am a Christian all my life. Sometime I take a hard fall. But always love God. And see God's helping hand all the way. But I do find some professed Bible lovers, very over bearing at times when I am in a different subject. So I am now responding with Bible passages to help them. I am loving it. The Bible tells us to do as the occasion requires. Not to prepare a long winded speech, but to allow God give you the words. Sometimes we can force our opinions on others. That's not what God said to do. But do all things in the love of the Lord.
Titus 1:6 is about "appointing" elders not elders who were already appointed but who, years later, see their children rebel! Of course Piper doesn't have to resign because his son is an unbeliever.
Scripture teaches their children must be believers. This is sad because Piper is a great teacher. But he isn’t just a teacher but a disciple and he should obey scripture even though it’s a tough situation. Scripture applies to all men. Even talented elders.
Pastor John, for the fact that you are in the frontline of pulling people to our Lord Jesus Christ, you are always the number one target for the enemy and he will use anyone or anything around you to be a distraction. Keep praying for your son and we join you in that bcos the enemy is a defeated foe! Christ made sure of that on The Cross. You’re never to stop preaching or teaching, or you’d have given him what he set out to get. To stop you from helping people into God’s Kingdom. Your son will be sorted out by The Lord Himself, He’s an adult. May God bless you and your family 🙏🏻
Most of us are too familiar with this problem of children who - all of a sudden don't acknowledge our Savior - anymore ! It is almost unbearably painful ............ but the only peace we'll find is totally trusting our Lord and Savior to work this out in their hearts ! I've wondered how I can possible go into eternity knowing all of my children won't be coming =[ as it stands at the present ]= I WILL TRUST MY GOD AND SAVIOR !!!
This is why I take issue with ancient religion. I don’t have a problem with the individuals themselves that choose to believe in it but anything that drives a wedge between family is not something I can see as beneficial to anyone. As far as I’m concerned the world would be much better off if we didn’t have people frightened for the safety of their children constantly.
It says what it says. Maybe if we held to the scriptures the body would have grown stronger rather than weaker. Maybe it would have been a better witness. Maybe, just maybe even Pastor Piper shouldn't be a Pastor exactly because it says what it says.
I saw poor Abraham on Tik Tok, God knows his heart and only he can break that harden heart. Just like members in my family that are unsaved we just have to keep praying for them and let God work on them.
Return is possible no matter how bad or final it looks. I left for 23 years and returned. I was into other religions and New Age and paganism. But Jesus called me back anyway. Definitely a miracle.
from what I observed in pastors children that stray from the Lord, it usually is when the parents behaves a certain way in the church and at home differently the other factor is extremely strictiveness forcing the child into Christ or demonizing non-demonic things. instead of becoming joyous to be a Christian becomes burdensome and saddening.
I just think it’s so interesting how people find a way to justify scripture when it directly would affect them in a negative way but they don’t do the same when it would negatively affect someone else in a different area. So having one of his children fall away….. nope… scripture isn’t referring to that. But a woman pastor or a gay Christian… “got forbid!!!! Scripture means what it says!!!” Always different when it affects you personally.
The pastor as long as he was preaching what was right and disciplining his kids in love if the kid decides to backslide thats on him hes responsible for his walk with God once hes passed the age of accountability pray that all these backslider church kids come back and repent
What a silly question! Of course he should. If any adult child doesn’t want to go to church, it’s their decision. It’s no reflection on the father. Ridiculous.
While it’s true that good management doesn’t mean perfect outcome, I would also suggest that sometimes a bad outcome does indicate bad management. Both can be true. (This is not a comment on the Pipers’ situation; I know very little about that.) My point is just that as parents we shouldn’t be easy to let ourselves off the hook. It’s very easy to try to comfort ourselves with, “We did the best we could” or “We’re doing the best we can,” but who can deny the monumental impact parenting has a on a child? Who’s to say if a child going astray *doesn’t* have something to do with the parents? Where our parenting was or is lacking, we needn’t make excuses; rather, we should embrace God’s forgiveness, and we should change, with His help. May God spare us from being like Eli, faithful in our other ministries but utterly failing as regards our families.
God is so compassionate and understanding and if we as His creation can go on sinning and rebelling against Him being that He is Almighty, I suppose we can forgive and not judge a mere human as a pastor who can not control an adult child from rebelling against the word of God. How many of us have family members, our own children, husbands, etc., who are living in rebellion even though we try our best to steer them on the straight and narrow path. This only solidifies my belief that only God can save! A perfect exampleof that is the apostle Paul.
I’m of two thoughts on this one. On one hand, I do realize that a son over the age of accountability (manhood, 20 years old biblically) answers for himself on judgement day. On the other hand, I also realize that the injunctions from Timothy and Titus are reflected from Genesis 18:19. For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord. IMO, this is just as important of a litmus test as the command to be married, or not to be a drunkard, or a brawler, or not given to filthy lucre. The fact that God will judge the child independently of the father does not neutralize the judgement of the father that his child has left the faith. It is an indictment of failed fatherhood, just as a man who is not married to his mia wife is an indictment of failed husbanding. If the lists to both Timothy and Titus are imperative and comprehensive lists (which I tend to believe) then failure of any equals disqualification of the position. If you failed in the home, you have no qualification to lead the assembly as the president of the assembly or the archisynagogos, regardless of your knowledge of scripture or your eloquence in the pulpit. This does not mean that this man has no value, it simply means that he needs to embody the parable of the good shepherd and leave the ninety nine and focus on the one that has left the fold. A fathers failure to do so is deeply troubling as it indicates that someone else’s children are more important a calling than his own flesh and blood. This is unconscionable, and to remain in a position in the assembly in this state is dishonorable.
And what if he already has? Is there any action he can take that will guarantee a favourable outcome? And if that outcome never happens, he is not qualified to be a pastor even if the son in question is an adult that no longer lives in his house? That does not sound right to me.
This is all correct except I'm pretty sure Paul is referring the qualifications for ELDERSHIP. If you have been given the pastoral gift, you will pastor, it is not a appointment by the church. Pastors, teachers, evangelists etc are gifts and appointed by God. The church has erred in this fit millennia.
@@shevanbryan3549 I hear what you’re saying, but I didn’t write the list. Paul did. It’s either scripture and the light to our path or why do we even bother with it if we can ignore the parts that are inconvenient?
@@robertcain3426 Elders and pastors both come from the same word in Greek. And while it is a spiritual gift, it is also an appointment by the assembly after the initial church planting in Acts. Its also not a singular man/ position. Paul ordained elders plural in every city, for a singular assembly.
It’s amazing to read these comments and see how blind the faith community is to truth and what sits outside of its established narrative. Have not one of you stopped for a moment and wondered if the kid could be right?
No offense to Piper, or anyone else... But I would rather be a good father than a minister to the masses. God doesn't need anyone's expertise, but the degree to which Abraham, a very intelligent and perceptive individual, has acted out can only be explained in the context of his upbringing.
@@cathieatkinson5033 it's not a guarantee, but normally that may result in agreeing to disagree, a child feeling supported by their parents either way. They probably come back their parents faith through the years of prayer for that child. Abraham is something else. Nobody becomes that anti christian without the help of a very sour experience in churchianity. I'm just saying, I've seen it happen. The church world can suck you in and blind you to the most basic and fundamental responsibilities of parenting, especially when you're someone important like a minister or whatever. There is pressure to maintains facade. Kids aren't dumb, they see what they're parents are really about and it's devastating even if that isn't the parents intentions.
I agree with everything in this dialogue. Only one thing is confusing. At the end when you say “perfect management doesn’t mean perfect outcome... it didn’t for God”. Is not in offering in the Kelvin perspective, and he predestined everyone to make the choices that they make. Wouldn’t everything be considered perfect outcome since he ordained it to be this way??
Not sure about all that predestined talk you mentioned, but as for the management part, you can look through Isaiah 5:1-7 for reference on how Gods perfect management didnt equal perfect outcome.
God's greatest gift to us is free will. Because he agape us, unconditionally. He will never force his blessings and good will on us until we decide to be blessed and accepted by Him.
I Was that Kid having grown up in a Christian family my Grandfather was a Pastor and my Father a Christian ...
I was the prodical son to say the very least ... but my father never Stopped praying for me .... I came to Christ in 2004 I am now 55 my father went to be with the Lord 3 weeks ago.
Keep Praying ... JESUS CHRIST NEVER FAILS. 👍
Praise God . I pray for your comfort during this time of loss.
AMEN!!!
Thats profound and amazing. No matter what the blind atheist believes.
Amen.
Same ) God is faithful and covenant keeping.
"The problem is not with the mind, it's with the heart." - Frank Turek
Excellent!!
Perhaps that is often the case but it’s a blanket dismissal of people with genuine wounds and questions. So, just stop it.
How do I turn off my brain to believe in nonsense?
@@KC-fb8ql It really isn't. People like that are actually with genuine questions are actually willing to learn and understand.
“Good management doesn’t always mean perfect outcome” wow!
Sobering, ain’t it. I just remembered the sons of the some mighty men in the Bible that got taken out or went astray. Aaron: Moses brother. Samuel the prophet. Even King David’s son Solomon. Scary if you ask me...
Yes, makes perfect sense! After all, God chose the nation of Israel and they failed in faithfulness and obedience time and time again. Yet this is NOT to discredit God's PERFECT management, but instead to highlight humanity's desperate need of a Savior. Thank You, Jesus, for being that Savior
It didn’t for God and it doesn’t for us. We just got to play our part
we know this is true because God is the perfect manager and satan still fell, and people still fall
Was it good management?
This is very heartbreaking for John you can hear it in his voice. Let's pray that his son repents and believes unto salvation. So that his son will experience the peace of God and no longer be an enemy of God.
John Piper isn't even saved himself. He constantly preaches the concept of final salvation secured by good works.
Abraham supposedly left Christianity at 19 only to return a few years later? How was he able to fool his father? The answer is that John Piper himself is a lost, unsaved man. The simple answer I would ask someone to judge their salvation is what must one do to be saved? Acts 16:31 is the answer.
Unfortunately, far too many people such as Piper preach works and Lordship Salvation heresy.
It astounds me why masses of people continue to support John Piper and his ministry when he teaches heresy.
Why would you sympathize with a preacher who opposes self-defense with a firearm and gun ownership?
@@palmtreesmusic1945
He doesn't preaches that, listen to all of his sermons, he says whats James said that FAITH always always finally somehow produces good works, if you listen to Mr. Piper in all his entirety then you'll know
The son in question returned to the faith and is the assistant pastor of a church in Nashville.
@@palmtreesmusic1945 Abraham Piper left too? I thought Barnabas was the wayward one, as I'd actually listened today to his testimony.
This is so sad... I pray that God pulls Abraham back home..
...and all the other wayward ‘Abrahams’ out there that we love so dearly.
I thought the same thing :/
Amen to this.
Amen
Proverbs 22:6 says train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. Trust God's word is true even when we can't see it. Time is not over yet and Gods grace and patience are beyond us.
I love you Pastor John and my heart breaks for you, because I can see how heartbroken you are over your son and I pray that he himself, becomes a believer and has a divine encounter with God, no matter how it comes, I hope he does.
The son makes his own choice.
Everyone will answer for themselves
He’s a Calvinist. He don’t believe that
are you saying that in light of the recent revelations or.....????
@@madcow9421 who's a calvinist?
Piper believes in a lot of the teachings of Calvin and I have heard some who call themselves that say God has just predestined some to hell and others for heaven (based on Romans 9). But I am not sure Piper takes that strict view after listening to him preach. For me, I always take Romans 9 with 2 Peter, where God says he doesn't desire anyone to perish, which shows the heart of God to save.
@@madcow9421
Doesn’t make it untrue
I've been following John for about 3 years now and just recently heard of Abraham, his son a few months ago. Seeing that this video was made 8 years ago breaks my heart to pieces. Because I know this has probably been an agonizing 8 years for John and still Abraham continues in his disbelief. But I am a prodigal child. A lot of people are condemning Abraham in the comments, and you are right, he is acting prideful, he seems to want to excuse sin in himself and others... And these are not light offenses. He also openly mocks God and the Bible in his tiktoks.
But what you don't see on the surface is actually deeper hunger for Truth.
He wants so badly to be right.
His videos feel like he's making them to convince himself just as much as other people.
He wants to be sure. He thinks he's sure...
He isn't taking his decision lightly. He's thinking and chewing and if and when he comes to Christ it will be genuine.
I strayed to just about the furthest place you can be from God on earth... But I had that same desire for Truth. I thought God couldn't be real or at least not the biblical God for so many of the same reasons he lays out in his videos. I convinced myself over and over about how Jesus couldn't be real or at least wasn't God... He crept into my thoughts whenever I sinned because I was taught about sin at a young age, as Abraham was as well. That's why Abraham can't stop making these videos and talking about it. He is being in some ways "haunted" by Christ. He is trying to make the ghost of Christ leave him by convincing himself and others that He's not true.... But he can't. Nothing he ever does or says will ever get Christ to leave him alone if he is His.
God reached me in a big way when I least expected it and I never thought I would devote my life to say that Jesus Christ is 💯 exactly who He claimed to be and that the Bible is factually and spiritually correct in every way.
God can reach Abraham. If he's truly in his heart searching for Truth, he WILL find it. I see a glimmer of hope... It's dim. But it's there.
Brothers and sisters, pray for him and John. Don't condemn either of them. Just pray healing over them and total reconciliation.
♥️♥️♥️♥️
God bless anyone who took the time to read this
If anyone here is an "atheist" and agrees with Abraham Piper and is here as a fan of his, I pray that you examine your life, if you ever feel His ghost "judging" you for your actions. Then examine God and His word. Don't get caught in the semantics. Start with Jesus in the gospels... See if you can find fault with Him first. Focus on His words and actions. Read them until you understand. Then, Jesus can help you make sense of the old testament. It's real... It's all real. It sounds crazy but I'm telling you it's true and it's actually better than you ever thought possible ♥️
I feel the same. His behaviour to me seems to be a reaction to maybe the way he was "forced" into the faith. Most people don't start out as strong believers in God. Its usually lifes experiences that leads us to God. I feel like a child in his position would have had a very difficult time. Not afforded the same space and privacy to grow and experience. There would have been a lot of pressure on him to "believe" because of how it would reflect on his father. His current views seem to be an angry counter reaction to that pressure. Very sad - pray for both of them.
Jess, thank you for your testimony, as I was reading your comments, I thought to myself that this needs to be posted on Abraham’s tiktok posts. I don’t have tiktok, so I don’t even know if it’s possible to comment on there, but it would be good for his followers to hear your testimony. God bless.
@@michaelparsons541 That's an interesting thought. The problem with tiktok commenting is that you can only comment 150 characters at a time... but maybe I can try to put a few comments in there... plant some seeds. 🙏🏻💗
a good post Jess. But I wonder if there`s another factor at play here.
From what I`ve read John is a good man. Maybe a very good man. But he embraces Calvinism so passionately that he`s one of the most prominent modern evangelists for it.
But think what it teaches - that there`s such a group of people as the "non-elect", people who are incapable of ever becoming part of the elect. But it will be these very people who will be kept supernaturally alive for ever and ever without parole in a state of fiery torment. Double wammy of the highest order!
If people are thought that evil then it is bound to effect the mindset of the onlooking elect person. Which can only lead to a certain hardness of character.
I`m glad that Steve Gregg of the narrow path ministry showed me a way of understanding scripture that doesn`t force me to believe in these two doctrines. If you choose to, that`s your call. But I`m glad I am free from that. The cross of Christ is heavy enough without that burden too.
@@alpinewonders I personally don't look at it as "the non-elect is incapable of being part of the elect"... I look at the elect vs non-elect as this: The elect is whom God knew from the beginning of time would come to Him of their own free will, because God saw the end from the beginning and still chose to create the world. FOR HIS ELECT. The non-elect were those whom He knew that He could appear before them in all His Glory and they would still reject Him, like lucifer and the demons did.
I also don't think it's possible for us to know who the elect and non-elect truly is until Christ's return. We can only be sure of our own salvation but people are capable of saying and doing all kinds of things while their heart (devotion) is truly elsewhere. For good or bad.. for example, a truly saved Christian can be caught up in habitual sin (that he hates) that might "disqualify" him to the rest of the world but he has a personal relationship with God and is growing in sanctification daily... and a seemingly "perfect" Christian, like a pastor etc, can say and do all the right things and yet not truly believe in his heart and may not be saved, and is not growing or changing...with or without any big, habitual sins
I'm not sure if this makes me Calvinist or Arminian or what... but I believe God is sovereign over it all and also will not ever impede on our free will. To not have mindless robots, He gave us free will... and one major cost of giving creation pure free will is also creating the non-elect.
John actually helps me see both sides of the argument pretty clearly, even though his explanations are more from the Calvanist perspective. Honestly, the more I wrestle with this, the more I see that it's a big circle that doesn't seem to matter very much in the end.
1. God is Sovereign over all things
2. We have free will
3. We are not saved by good works but by faith in Jesus alone
I think we all agree on number 3, Calvinism emphasizes 1 and Arminianism emphasizes 2 but I see it as "Yes And" because God knows who His Bride is... He created this world for us but He never forces us to choose Him.
He will have His Bride.... He will have every single one He calls and not lose any of them. The ones who do not come to Him, would have never under any circumstance ever come to Him under their own free will.
We can't harden our hearts because we do not know who is elect and who isn't.. it's impossible for us to see.. so we must be faithful to do what He calls us to do at every turn with our conscience and cling to Him.
I'll look up Steve Gregg as I've never heard of him.. 😀
Didn't know about Abraham's state until a little over a week ago, when his ill-informed viral post was brought up by a couple of Christian RUclipsrs. I stand with Dr. Piper in praying for Abe's genuine salvation.
Amen Kadmiel! Amen! Love your name by the way what does it mean
@@TheHoriginal Thank you. It's Hebrew, meaning "GOD is ancient, first, or first to move". It's from the Scriptures. Books of Ezra & Nehemiah. The name of either one or two different men. If two, then one was a Levite, who aided with the spiritual reformation of the people of Israel after their return from Exile.
Wow SO cool!! Our God has so many awesome names and characteristics! Wish you well friend and may your Abba favor you in all things.
@@TheHoriginal Thank you. Grace be with you, as well. Pray for me. I started a channel where I teach from the Bible. May Christ be glorified.
@@kadmielvalcin if only all online conversations could be as delightful as what I just read. Will head over to your channel
This happened in our family too... But the Lord is faithful! Alleluia!! My father in law, as a pastor, did the right thing according to the Bible and after 17 years of prayer and waiting, finally his prodigal son returned to home as a believer. Praise the Lord. And the Lord returned to him not only his son, but also a daughter in law (me) as believers. Our Lord is merciful and we will thank Him forever
Did they keep in touch during that time? I love this outcome. Just wondering if contact was still attempted even while the son was searching? I can't give up on my family. Even if we don't believe the same I want them near me💔
@@creolekween I think every situation is different, and only the Spirit can guide you in the right thing to do. The Lord will guide you, in Jesus's name
I give you only my personal testimony. They didn't keep in touch for the first 10 years, and it was a very hard suffering for them, but they wanted to put God first. They only wrote some letters to their son, explaining their love and the Love of Christ for Him, and explained their position with biblical references. My husband sometimes didn't read the letters, but I read all of them and started to understand their point of view and the meaning of following the Lord Jesus without compromise and really appreciated their faith. After 10 years we married and invited them, but they decided to not go to our marriage to put God first. The year after they called us to their home to talk together and restart the relationship, and they invited us to make a travel to stay together for a full week. I was angry with them and didn't want to go, but at the end we decided to go and that travel was a great blessing for us. During the travel I had the opportunity to know them deeply and to see the light and the love that filled their lives and began to desire to have the same love in my heart. During that period the Lord gave me also suffering and hillness, but when I was with them I felt well, only when I was with them and I started to think about this.. They gave me a Bible and I started to read it and listen to my father in law's teachings and after one year Christ came into my heart and my life changed completely, Alleluia!!! My husband became a real Christian after 6 years, but now we have all in Christ and we thank the Lord for the patience He had with us. Thank Jesus!
Praise God!
OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS BELIEVERS IS TO TELL PEOPLE THE TRUTH .. NOT TO SAVE THEM .. THATS BETWEEN GOD & THEM.
As believers you can’t tell people the truth until you recognise it, and in recognising truth you will give up your beliefs.
@@pomegranatepip2482 Wolf among sheeps spotted
Amen that's so true. Our part is to only preach / share the gospel faithfully and responsibly. The rest is God's.
Salvation does not rely on the parents but God. Management and salvation are two different things. My heart breaks for his son and will be Praging for him!
Why does your heart break for someone who has found truth?
@@pomegranatepip2482 Because it is a half truth... And don't worry, SJWs do exactly the same thing as she does here.
@@einarabelc5 I don’t see how losing faith in God is a half truth.......
Adam and Eve were the first prodigals, and they had a perfect Father.
Fake, copied from Hinduism, check no.2 and 3 below:
20 IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE that proved Bible God is likely FAKE, don't miss the last paragraph that explains them all:
1) A CREATOR god claimed to be ALMIGHTY should be the oldest and only religion but all the pagans, Greek, Chinese, Hinduism religions existed earlier.
2) Many of the Bible's mythologies was very similar with older pagans, Greek, Egyptian or Hinduism religions(note the names too) E.g. Adam/Eve with Atman/Jiva, big flood and survivor Noah/3 sons with Manu/3 daughters although cause of flood is different. Abraham/Sarah with Brahma/Saraswathi, Moses with Krishnu etc
3) Jesus similarities with Buddha. Maya to Mary, miracle pregnancy to virgin pregnancy, birth during a journey home to from home, prophesied soon after birth, both had a disciple who betrayed them, walked on water, Gautama left the palace at age 29 and Jesus appeared at 29, Gautama became Buddha at 35 and Jesus died and resurrected at around 35 too, Buddha had a big meal while Jesus had a last supper before they died, after they passed away, 500 arahants witnessed compilation of Buddha's teachings and over 500 witnesses to Jesus's resurrection etc. All coincidental ? Beside Buddha, Jesus was also found to be copied from other figures. Surely they can't be ALL coincidental.
4) Why should an almighty and all knowing God allowed their people to branch off and kill their parent religion Judaism or Zoroatruism and later allowed Islam to be created and had holy wars/crusades with Christianity ? "Free will" as an excuse is not acceptable as earlier they claimed their God killed all people with a big flood(without freewill) because they sinned.
5) The way they collect tithings during Sunday mass is so tricky. They know people will be shy not to pay or to pay less when others could be watching. This is why they don't just use a money box like Buddhism, Hinduism or Chinese temples where people can donate anytime. Catholics and Islam later even made it bigger by suggesting donation of a certain percentage of their income.
6) The Bible condemned non-followers, clearly mentioned in Mark's words 16:16. Why should a Creator God's religion condemn non-believers when in the first place, they claimed their God created the world? Isn't this like playing both sides of the same coin, both good and evil ?
7)Not knowing why or how the world exists don't mean that it was created by a god. Now "Creator" idea got stale, they use "Intelligent Design" What is so intelligent in its design? If people don't need to go to toilet and don't have unpleasant feelings or sufferings, then I will call it an intelligent design.
8) The Bible is full of sex, lust, incest and desires in Cor, Gen, Lev & Solomon's part, beside evil and violence. Their God killed countless people when Satan only killed a few.
9)Wisdom, mindfulness and meditaion are not taught or encouraged by them because they don't want their followers' minds to be clearer and wiser.
10)The Bible copied very much from older religions but not the theory of karma because karma idea defeats the purpose of the all mighty God and it will prevent people from doing bad deeds. Saying God love or forgive sins is a trick playing both sides of the coin.
11) If there is a loving God, why are there Christian babies born with disease or innocent children being abused or died young ?
12) It don't makes sense to claim that only their believers will go to heaven and others don't since they claimed their God created all people. Such claim is an insult to other religions and cultures and caused people to divide. A good religion should be non-sectarian, secular and treat all people equally.
13)Most major festivals and holidays related to Christianity are fake including Christmas(Jesus can't be born in winter), Easter, Thanksgiving, Good Friday, All Souls, Halloween and even New Year are copied from paganism.
14) Using fear like hell or "end of the world" every 2 years but we are still here.
15) The fraud case of Mother Teresa(Google it) and after she died, those money she collected was not returned to India.
16)If their God is all-mighty, why need missionaries to convert others ?
17) The ongoing child sex abuses committed by the pastors/priests that I read so often.
18) The Bible condemned dogs because they know dogs are man's best friend. Making men lonely is the best way to keep them dependant on religion.
19) If God created everybody, why then condemn LGBT or other religions ?
20) Incidents, eg: (a) Covid-19 highest fatalities rate countries are all highly religious, 700K Americans alone !! (b)The Air Asia plane crash of 2019 killed 41 church members, 2 missionaries and their few month old baby. (c) spree killings happened inside a church etc
Only 1 reason can tie up all 20 points above, this God was fake and man-made to con or control people.
They were not Atheist
There’s nothing unique or inspiring about Abraham Piper. He’s merely reciting tired old skeptical lines of attack and riding his father’s reputation to internet fame. My heart breaks for pastor John.
Honestly I have sympathy for Abraham also. Its very clear he is scarred and damaged from having so much emphasis on his faith journey at such a young age - by being "forced" to believe - rather then allowed to come to knowledge and understanding on his own in privacy without being "pursued" with the threat of excommunication. My guess is if he grew up with his faith in less of a spotlight - maybe a more forgiving environment like most of us where his dad wasn't a prominant well known pastor and going through the normal teenage faith exploration stage he may well have come back to the faith - but due to his fathers public pastor position he wasn't afforded the grace, privacy and personal growth most of us are allowed to have on our faith journeys because of how it would reflect on his father/the church. He now seems "scarred" and damaged from people trying to force him to believe with threats and consquences of which I think is natural. Its easy to see why he has an axe to grind with religion. He clearly has a lot of anger towards the church and I think when you hear about how it was handled and think about how we would feel in the same position its easy to see why. Publically excommunicated at 19 - who wouldnt have an issue with the church ? You can feel his anger in the videos - very sad. Prayers for both him and his father.
@@David-_-_- I appreciate your insight, you’ve given me reason for self-reflection.
Maybe only came to me due to a recent experience. I went to a christian conference last weekend - and the leader of the conference I know and she had forced her child to come under duress. He was 16 and did not want to be there - at all. I witnessed the "pressure" people can feel when they hold these positions to get their children/family to believe. It comes from a space of love - they know god and they want their children to know God ...... but I watched how it can manifest and the reaction of the son - which was strong resistance, aversion and anger to being "forced". I recall where I was in my own faith journey at the same age and thought of how I would have reacted if my parents had done the same with me at this age. Its very sad how the more we can try to force someone to come to God even with best intentions - sometimes the less likely it is to happen. We have to respect each individuals faith journeys and lead people delicately and kindly.
I spoke with her later over lunch and asked her how her faith journey started and she said it had come through her infertility issues / miscarriages and inability to conceive children - and the death of her neice from cancer. I want to speak with her again soon to remind her that her own faith wasn't always the way it is now - and it was through her life experiences that she came to know God the way she does now. That she needs to give her son the same space and respect he hasn't had the experiences she has - and cant just magically jump to where she is now in his faith journey no matter how much she wants him to. That continuing to force him may be very counter productive and lead to a negative outcome. Really don't want her to end up in a similar position to John and his son.
@@David-_-_- I recently stumbled upon this video because of the recent talks about his son on social media. This coming right after I did a study from Chip Ingram's "Effective Parenting in a defective world." And there is a stark contrast between these two pastors and I can't emphasize how much Chip, as an influential and internationally renowned pastor and as a father, would have stepped away from his ministry to bring his prodigal son home. Watch the videos, it's a breath of fresh air, especially because he emphasizes the bond we must build between parents and child (video mark 25:00 part 1). ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=effective+parenting+in+a+defective+world
@@David-_-_- you are making alot baseless assumptions.
Blaming the environment rather than actual son and his rebellion.
Abraham had an unconverted son. Ishmael .
God , and his first created humans in a perfect environment , rebelled against their maker. And we are now born in sin with a sinful nature, left to our own devices unless regenerate will not and can not please God.
Mat 10
34“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38
I can hear the pain and sorrow in his voice....man.. God bless you John Piper. May God transform your son into a prodigal one. He is always able. This is one of, If not the greatest fear I have when/if I have kids in the future by God's grace. Idk if there is anything more terrifying that comes to mind.
I am aware this is an old video but it came up on my feed and this subject hits close to home. My husband has just recently gone back to ministry after being g away for a while. Our children were raised in a Christian home and my husband went into ministry as a pastor beginning in our late twenties. After they grew up both our children walked away from the Lord. Our son has never returned. And though our daughter attends a church and serves there she lives a double life. We live in a state of permanent heart break and sadness and pray for our children daily and will never stop.
Many of us have walked away and come back and done great things for the Lord. Bless God for the seeds you have already planted. Bless God for his Holy Spirit working on their hearts. Bless God for all praying parents who have the tenacity to keep praying. Don't you ever give up. May the Lord answer your prayers.
🙏
Your prayers will bear fruit. That is what God says and I can testify to that: if it wouldn't be for the prayers of my parents, I would not be where I am, serving God and surrounding myself with fiery people, desiring a holy life style and finding joy and satisfaction in the plans of God.
Please, do never stop praying for your children and declaring the Word of God over them! Nobody really knows what God is still sparing them because of it. Much love from Germany.
Churches need more outreach to broken hearted parents. I'm in that group with you sister. In these days, time is of the essence for Jesus is coming soon.
Promise to pray for u tonight
Should God resign if any of His children willfully disobey? Of course not.
Let's not compare God with mere men. And scriptures are clear if you can't lead your own family, then you should lead others.
By the way there was never supposed to be a head pastor... Only a group of elders.
@@SG-jv5zi What then do you make of this passage from Acts?
Now in those days, when the disciples were multiplying, grumbling arose among the Hellenists against the Hebrews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily support. So the Twelve called together the whole group of the disciples and said, “It is not right for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables. So, brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, full of the Spirit and wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this duty. But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the service of the Word.” The statement pleased the whole group; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Ruach ha-Kodesh , and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch. They placed these men before the emissaries; and after praying, they laid hands on them. The word of God kept on spreading, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem greatly multiplied; even a great number of the kohanim were becoming obedient to the faith. Now Stephen, full of grace and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people.
Acts 6:1-8 TLV
bible.com/bible/314/act.6.1-8.TLV
@@colmwhateveryoulike3240 I understand that to mean they appointed deacons among the believers to care for these particular people.
@@banemaler Yes but as those who appoint the appointees, they have oversight and power to... disappoint? A hierarchy is created according to the way things work as ordained ultimately by God.
@@SG-jv5zi you know what the analogy is and you missed the point. He did manage his family well. They’re just hasn’t been the outcome that is desirable as of yet. Your view of church government is not the only one laid out in the scriptures, but it is certainly a model. In the book of revelation, you find that John writes to the “Angel “or or the messenger of each particular group, so there you go. I believe in a plurality of elders, but with one senior elder, and that elder should have someone in his life, speaking into him, or several people for sure. I believe in accountability, but I don’t believe in a group of elders, or deacon possessed people holding, the man of God back from preaching and teaching the strong word of God by the spirit of God and making decisions. In addition to this, regardless of what type of church government, you have, if our hearts are not integral, and willing to do God‘s will, the enemy can use any form of church government, he pleases, and have a hay day in our lives. so the answer is not just what Right church government is because I do not believe there is one model, but they answer is that we all have the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom. If we have this, we will succeed in the plan of God.
Because pastor John has a grip on God and an understanding of the Gospel like I have never heard before, the waywardness of his son is almost a given, because the enemy wants to shut him up. We know from the story of Job that what is happening to pastor John and his son has not caught God by surprise and God is and will be glorified through this situation in their lives. None know the outcome except God. Knowing that, I hope and suspect pastor John can and does take some comfort in our Lord's care and providence.
Listen to the heart of a father: COMPASSION through and through. I could literally hear his voice crack. God bless you Pastor John. I'd keep you and your son in my prayers.
I really pray that Abraham may come to the light ❤️ Glory to God Almighty
Abraham might have actually come to the light ! Did you think about that !!
Pastor John, you are a Godly man and loved very much by many people. I am praying for your son. God bless you
Just prayed for you. I know your heart is broken for him. Thank you for all your Biblical teaching. It has encouraged me in so many ways in my life,& brought me back from giving up completely twice. Praise God for your gift of teaching.
It’s not too late for our unbelieving children. Keep praying for their souls. God bless you Pastor for your humility.
This is so hard. In our case we have 12 children and 28 grand children. Of the 12, our 4 daughters are no problem... following the Lord with everything. Of our 8 sons 3 are not doing well at all, one even changed his name. We have definitely backed off from a lot of ministry in the past 7 or so years. I love what your church did and how they handled this John. We continue to press on and in and put our trust in God. Thanks for sharing this.
Alan, perhaps you should stop measuring the success of your children by their susceptibility to indoctrination. Perhaps you should measure it by their ability to think for themselves and work out the ways of the world through independent critical though. You are probably a real nice guy, but have you ever thought that those 3 may be doing better than the other 9? They have it right, and the rest have it wrong. Your faith probably blinds you to this fact. What abuse does a parent have to do to his child to make that child change his name? Shame on you.
@@pomegranatepip2482
Shame on you !
@@pomegranatepip2482 Too bad you have no idea what you're talking about because you have no knowledge of the circumstances. Your opinion is noted and rejected.
@@jbjoeychic cheers buddy.
@@alansenecal5548 you know what - you are right. That last bit was uncalled for and I genuinely apologise. The rest I stand by though. The way you wrote your comment suggested to me that you judge your children’s success by their belief or lack thereof. You are assuming that there is a god. Perhaps that’s where you are going wrong. If my parents had continued to minister to me after I dropped my faith for reason and enlightenment, I know it would have been a major source of resentment if not drive me away from them.
John would've traded all of his ministerial success to have his son come back to the faith
Where does he say that?
@@rutharchana 1:09
@@loisconrad6893 no he doesn't. Only that he'd be willing to step back, take a break...while they decide what to do.
Did you actually watch the video? When did he say say that?
When did he step back?
The video is literally explaining why he didn’t quit his role.
I, as well as other people in the comments, think that he should.
I made a throw away comment. He never said it, its just my opinion.
I thank God I stepped back from pastoring with it's heavy demands and worked with my hands to spend more time with wife and family... far, far more important to be faithful in the small things right before you and when you have grace to do that well ...then become teachers, elders/pastors... too many have it the other way around.. I was still able to lead people to Christ, disciple them...and thank God my 3 kids and families are walking in the faith... most important in these dark and troubling times. And I believe Abraham is a prodigal who will one day enable us to see the glory and faithfulness of God
I think it's such a shame what John's son is doing. He must know he's riding on his father's coat-tails and using that to attack the faith. It's a horrid way to treat your father.
I see both sides. I feel like because of John Pipers position a lot of pressure and force was excerted on Abrahans faith journey because of how it would reflect on his father and the church. Excommunicated at 19 .... just wow. No wonder he is scarred now and angry at the faith. What 19 year old didn't have doubts about God ? I certainly wasn't the model christian at this age - but I was allowed space to learn, grow - make some mistakes and then returned to the faith wiser. Sometimes faith is not a straight line and when you try to "force" someone to believe because of how it will reflect on you ...... you actually damage their faith journey irepairably and drive them away from God. Simply allowing them some provacy and space to grow and come to understanding on their own can result in completely different outcomes.
@@David-_-_- Thanks for sharing both sides of the story. Without this information it's easy to jump to (partially wrong) conclusions. I also wondered how the relationship with his dad, helped or hindered his spiritual journey. We may never know, and I don't like to speculate. I feel sympathy for Abraham, even tho I don't agree with his views.
@@laurapiovan9121 Yes agree. Pray for both of them. My insight only came because of a recent experience where I attended a christian conference. I knew the organizer of the conference and she had "forced" her 16 year old sonm to attend under duress. I could see a great deal of anger from him towards her - and the faith in general - due to being forced into it and not given a choice. I then thought about how I would have reacted at the same age if I was in the same position as my faith was not strong at 16. It gave me an insight into the difficulty people in prominant leadership positions have when raising children and the different pressures and expections this puts on the children and how it can manifest negatively. Sometimes "less is more". We can guide people but you need to allow people to discover God in their own ways and time otherwise it can have the opposite effect of whats desired. Also you can see from Johns answer how the pressure of how his sons non belief reflects on him as a pastor and how this would then influence their relationship. Such a difficult and complex situation.
@@David-_-_-
He wasn't just having doubts like everyone does..... And the father didn't expect him to be exactly perfect.
You should be sure of what actually happened before making such comments .
And... Human laws jail people of 18years.... What's your point??
Does he not know the right thing to do??
Or is excommunication not scriptural?
I think you should be slow to make such comments and is ready go learn about what actually happened..
Was he excommunicated for a minor thing?? 🙄
@@David-_-_-
I don't know where you got the idea of this soft is less..
Or how you can gauge being soft and differentiate it from being negligent.
These men understand their role and how they are accountable to God....look at Samuel, Look at Eli etc.
And... You make these statements without having any concrete idea of what happened???
The father made the girl hi under duress?? Huh huh.... That's too much for you to say!
Be careful of how you speak, brother.
That may be the worst reasoning I’ve ever heard from JP.
“The verse can’t mean what it clearly says because I can find a silly way to interpret it. Therefore I can generalize and effectively disregard it.”
Wow.
Yes! How many great men of God had sons that went off the rails.
Let's go one step further... how many of God's children went off the rails? Does God need a parenting class? I don't think so!
00
Samuel's children
Abraham piper is a roll model, all hail king abraham
Just look at how David's sons and grandsons. Yet God kept His promises to David, after he died, just because David loved him
I know some pastors are more dedicated to their positions as a pastor than as a father. I believe God would have it the other way around. I think that is one meaning behind the scriptures being spoken about. If a man is good at leading his family, he will probably do well at leading a flock. And, yes, that doesn't guarantee perfection! But, we should always look at the character of the man outside of the Church setting.
Amen, it is hard to know when to take their hats off too.
This is a heart broken and the saddest thing for a parent who is a believer and his/her children are not, wow, I can hear and feel his pain in his voice, let’s pray for him and for all the nonbelievers children and/or parents 🙏🏼😢 God bless pastor John Piper.🙏🏼
The next generation is built up by the power of kneeling mothers and fathers for the salvation of their wayward sons and daughters. Godly parents can only do so much because salvation comes from the Lord, not from the family. My older Christian colleagues are prayer warriors because of the hard hearts of their children, and it will take years of loving them into the kingdom, but if God is patient, then we can be too.
To know that you poured your heart out all of these years being faithful to Jesus/Yeshua even though your son not only rejects God, but blatantly opposes him makes my level of respect for you go even higher. No one is born "saved" and we all are responsible for how we respond to Christ whether we had good examples or not. The pain in your voice is heartbreaking and I hope your Son sees the light and repents.
"A good management doesn't mean a perfect outcome. It didn't for God, and it doesn't for us". Well said.
God's work is not perfect? Of course, there is a dual reality here one in which all of God's children are his and one in which his heart broke for those who are not.
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Ezekiel 18:20
Yes but that is the old testament, what does it say in the new testament? This makes me so sad, our children walked away from the Lord and our son has never returned.
Somehow a father suffers for the iniquity and a son too. Abraham and his sons, King David and his sons, Jacob and his sons, Judah and his sons. Whenever they sinned there was a consequence.
@@shalompanna Hi Shalom, Ezekiel 18:20 means that God does not impune someone guilt of sinning on another person when He judges(which will be the case ultimately on Judgement day when individual books shall be opened). A classic example our Lord Jesus still suffered the effects of the sin riddled world(which culminated to being bodily killed) but was sinless before God. 'For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin' Heb 4:15
@Xender Xed she is sad because she has been brainwashed into thinking her kids will go to hell. It’s that good old ‘terrify people with hell to keep them in line’ thing. Problem is that when their kids ‘stray’ from this foul immoral belief structure, they get scarred for them.
@@pomegranatepip2482 please just read the words of Jesus from the New Testament. He did quite a lot of terrifying people. Or read John the Baptist’s message from Luke 2. His preaching was terrifying.
I can feel your pain and sadness my beloved pastor John Piper, I've also learned a lot from you. Lets keep praying.
I love you pastor John, it is to Gods Glory, he will use this for his GLORY, not for us to enjoy but for his GLORY. Keep preaching Gods Word and his truth! Thank you for your service to the kingdom
He is absolutely correct that good management doesn’t equate to perfect households. People have to go find their own God at some point. Not their parents God. His sons has a journey. The parent’s job once they are grown is to pray without ceasing!
I can honestly say a good tree cannot bare bad fruit if our children turn out to be rebellious then it’s our fault as parents somewhere down the line we failed them and missed God but we don’t want to look at the reality of it and say we messed up as well or we dont have the truth thats what it really comes down to God want us to be perfect I don’t understand how we keep rolling with that statement when he clearly says be ye perfect for I am perfect he say don’t sin at all but we do that’s why we lose the way but it is totally possible not to sin
@@johnward2650 No it’s not always the parents fault. We all have a choice and our children make their own choices regardless of how they were raised. My parents were fake Christians and played church, even teaching classes on Sunday’s but never spoke about Jesus or salvation or anything at home. So even with good parenting and teaching the Bible, John’s kid walked away. My parents didn’t reach the Bible and weren’t real Christians and I became a Christian later in my late 20’s. Besides, we know salvation is the work of the Lord from start to finish anyways. None of us would believe without the grace of God. Doesn’t matter how the parents raise the kids. It is God’s choice from start to finish. That’s why we pray for salvation. Only God can change their hearts and lead them to repentance. A child not claiming Jesus who was raised by a true Christian is proof that we are chosen. We don’t choose God without him first choosing us and we can’t. Grace and peace to you.
@@DangSensei77 I’m saying reason why his kids walked away it’s bc that wasn’t the way of God I’m telling you a good tree cannot bare bad fruit if John was a good tree all his kids will be good it’s impossible for you to be a good tree and have a bad fruit I think the problem is we have been taught wrong I mean we have our own interpretation and not the truth and your right God do choose certain people to bring us out the hell were in bc of our forefathers if they had got it right we want be in this situation
@Lil Laidee he had one son that’s it the rest was adopted Jesus had to go through all that so he can overcome
@Lil Laidee Adam and Eve wasn’t his son and daughter they were his creation Jesus was his only begotten son you have to born of the spirit before you be Gods son and daughter and to do that you have to live according to Gods statue then he will adopt you if you still sinning then your not his son or daughter
You have to be born again! You can’t force beliefs onto anyone if they’re not ready!
Yes that seems right to me too. Obviously, then, the translators have erred in transcribing this sentence. Obedient to parents is one thing. Believing is another thing that is out of the control of the parent.
Amen
@@robertcain3426 what scripture are you referring to
@@conanlabiche the same scripture those are using against this man 1Timothy3:4. In regard to whatever bible translation of this passage, for someone to suggest that children who are not believers is somehow the fault of the parents is absurd, some of the commenters having also interpreted Paul's view to be this way when all Paul says is that the children must be obedient under the authority of the parents. When they grow up and leave home, they are no longer subject to that authority.
%1000 and this is extremely important message! Many children of godly parents never taught about it and attend a church just been a sinners who happened to know about God but never born again. So if those been excommunicated who do we excommunicate? Sinners? Yes! Not fair!
Free will is a hard truth.
My heart goes out to Pastor John, few things can be more devastating for a parent. Mercy and love needs to be shown, not in denying sin, but in loving souls into right relationship.
Pastor John, this is why I respect you immensely and gain so much from your messages. I am reading your very long book on the providence of God right now. Thank you so much for sticking to your convictions and for your ministry.
Isn’t it sad that a man would stick to faith over his own child.
I'm crying while watching this. I pray to God the Almighty in Jesus' name that his son will soon repent and genuinely be coverted to Christianity.
Pastor, I respect you with my whole heart ❤, I don't know how much it's hurting you, but our God is a good God he will get your son back he died for us on the cross knowing that we are still sinners, Jesus's love can't be dodged and it will overcome your son, God's love is greater, Jesus is for you, not against you. We pray in Jesus name that all forces working against God's plan in your sons life be broken right now. And he finds the truth and peace and love of Jesus.
My heart weeps for Pastor John right now. I pray for him and his son
When we are on the front line for Jesus, the enemy’s attacks are more fierce and often he does it through our children. We experienced that if we keep strong in the battle and keep interceding in due time we’ll see the breakthrough! It’s a spiritual battle.
sometimes that is just a smokescreen to hide behind. blame it on the devil when you know full well that you lived a double life. acted one way in church and another way at home. the kids see through the hypocrisy. or a parent who will put "their" ministry ahead of their own kids thereby neglecting their own children. then when they are actually home they are so tired that they are just sleeping or have no time or patience for their own children. how do you expect those kids to grow up when they are forced to live in environments like that? do you really think that they are going to have warm fuzzy feelings towards their parents or towards God? the church just loves to make spiritual sounding excuses and then hide behind them. heres something that you might want to try with your children who are not christians, how about if this describes you, you humble yourself before your children and acknowledge the wrongs that you have done to them and inflicted upon them. then ask them for their forgiveness. instead of always just blaming the devil really take a look at yourself
@@loyevangelists he could start by apologising for brainwashing his kid with this nonsense. That would probably go some way to healing. That said, he’s to invested in it to duck out now. Sad indeed.
Thank you Pastor John for responding to the question so genuinely, while going through your own pain on the topic. Your honesty went before the answer itself. 🙏🙏
Wow,this one was touching.
It’s sad but being a minister bears so much responsibility, it is so important. This is why the Bible says that he who cannot hold down his home cannot any better handle the Body of Christ. There are many other ways to serve the Lord, but ministers must be men who can raise people in good faith and are wise stewards. Therefore, if you can’t minister because of this fact don’t take it personally and don’t desire power in the church, for it is all in the best interest for the children of God.
Seems like a pretty negative way to look at all this. You can’t put all the blame on Piper if he’s tried and tried and tried.
I agree with you. We can’t pick and choose from the Word. We must complying with it.
Appreciate this video. I wondered about your feelings on your son.
The children have to make their own way. I'd say the only way you should at all be held accountable is if you had done something specifically that caused his unbelief.
Prayers for him and your ministry through I'm sure a difficult situation.
Good management doesn’t mean perfect outcome. 🙏🏽
Unless you've lived it, you have no idea of the pressure that is put on pks (pastors kids). It is a wonder they don't all leave the church, just to get some semblance of a normal life. And, when this young man wants to think for himself (and perhaps develop his own faith) you kick him out.
This is why Paul says it's better to not have a wife or children if a man is planning to pursue a calling to ministry. A pastor's child endures almost all of the same pressures that the pastor does without the wisdom and discernment brought about from years of experience and spiritual growth.
Remember King David and his son Absalom
I think about that sometimes. It had to have ripped his heart out. He didn't live to see the evilness of Solomon but just because a father is righteous doesn't mean he'll pass it on to his kids I guess
But also have to take into account that we are living in a new covenant with God. I listened to what his son had to say and he was talking about his upbringing, Christianity is not an obligation it is a choice that you make daily, you respond to a call from God and then you follow that call. How many will ask for a drop of water like the rich man who went to hell, yet we have the opportunity to find The Well that never runs dry.. knock and it shall be opened, search and you shall find. With John Piper his very teachings is now haunting him with the whole 'elect and chosen' story.
Maybe he can be lead to true salvation with this story of his son.
@@sion1677 I do believe that there is still a place in Heaven for Absolom because I don't believe that Absolom knew what he was doing, I think Satan planted the seeds of discord and what does the enemy do? STEAL. KILL. DESTROY.
I believe hundred percent that Solomon is saved and in Heaven.
When it comes to being saved, all we can do is pray for his son that Jesus Christ who came in the flesh touches him so that his son can respond to Christ and not the religion around him but the actual Christ who died on the cross and rose again.
I've seen a lot of people turn away from God because of strict religious rules that are the rules of men and not from God. This is how the enemy turns the hearts away from God in our post-modern world. The enemy uses both religion, the father and the household against the children and the children against God. Let's pray that he has a REAL ENCOUNTER with Jesus, not through Calvinism, not through religion but through the Holy Ghost so he experiences Jesus one to one
@@thatsreelcreative I agree with, I don't pronounce judgement on whether someone is in heaven or in hell because I am not able to see inside hearts and God alone has that authority. I don't know how God determines who goes to heaven and who not according to the first covenant, i don't really have interest in that because it has no bearing on my own salvation. Alot of things that happened to people in the first covenant was to teach us certain things for example when we learn about king Solomon we learn about wisdom and the importance thereof and that wisdom cannot keep your heart from turning to idolatry, like king Solomon. The we learn about king David who had a heart after God, he lacked wisdom at certain points yet he did not enter into idolatry. With God we need balance in everything, we need a heart after God and we need wisdom.
Indeed we should pray for him for true salvation because what he has been taught and told has already condemned him, God did not condemn him but this teachings which he has been exposed to. I honestly can hear the cry in that boys voice in his first video. We as people from the Gentile fold should be carefulhow we speak about the grace of God. The grace of God is not limited to one group or one denomination.
@@sion1677 hello brother in Christ! It is finally good to see another brother feel God’s kindness burning 🔥 on their hearts
If more leaders had John Piper's courage and integrity the church would be enriched. Praying for reconciliation, restoration and comfort to Pastor John and family.
In my study and understanding the key word in this discussion is child/children. When this is considered in the overall context of the passage, it clearly was meant to and is demonstrating the functionality and leadership of a husband/father’s role as the shepherd of his personal “flock”, and nothing more needs or should be added to it. It simply infers, in no uncertain terms that a man with unruly and ungodly children lacks the wisdom, skill, commitment and even the faith, or in one word he lacks the “ability” to adequately lead his own home, and in this he is disqualified from any pastoral leadership in the Church. As a child transitions from childhood to adulthood not only does their role and responsibility in the family/home change, but so does our role and responsibility to them. I am sorry to hear that your son has turned away from his faith, but as an adult his “fall” has no reflection on you and neither should nor would it play ANY role in your qualifications as a Pastor/leader in ministry. If you or anyone else finds themselves under the authority of a church that wrongly uses this passage to prevent men from taking positions of pastoral leadership, I would strongly advise that through prayerful consideration you find a new place to worship and serve. If a church can’t rightfully interpret and teach on such a basic and clearly laid out subject, then surely they won’t get the much deeper and complicated doctrines and theology correct. Blessings, adam
The world would have lost a great teacher. God bless you John and Noel Piper.
Way to uptight, if child is a unbeliever, be patient and lead by example, and pray for them, that the holy spirit will come upon them and they will be like the prodical son. And you will be the father waiting with open arms.
You get it.. it's not the end of the world. Life is a journey back to God; Abraham will eventually find his way.
Abraham strikes me as very childlike even though he's 43+ years old. Some people never grow out of that rebellious phase.
A mom or dad is only as happy as their saddest child💔 Hope his son reconciled to God by now.
I didn’t understand this until I had kids, but it’s so true.
Perhaps this child is happy? Those of us that dropped Christianity are typically happier after having done so. Casting off the shackles of a jealous capricious god is a fantastic feeling. Love me or burn in hell for eternity......well, sorry, but you can worship that god if you admire that kind of jealous hate filled immorality. You can keep him and those of us who have cast him off shall welcome the son to the enlightenment.
@@pomegranatepip2482 If I may ask, “if you are so happy and content why do you feel the need to come and watch this clip and then comment”?
@@BrendanMurrayJubana because I am curious and hope to flick a little spark of seeking truth into the minds of others. Something wrong with that? I guess also telling a child that it will go to hell and burn in fire for eternity if it moves away from God could be considered child abuse, as would be telling a parent that their child will burn in hell through their failure. Imagine yo the emotional distress a parent must go through thinking how their failure will result in this. It’s disgusting. Scoring a parent as done lower down on 9 out of 12 kids is sick and dehumanising and the concept of a deity willing to burn someone in hell for eternity for not believing in him sounds like a pretty immoral jealous arsehole of a god. I personally went through a lot of anguish for many years seeking a relationship with God. I worried about what was wrong with me and why I could not establish such a relationship, and then one day I thought to myself....”perhaps there is no god and therefore no relationship to be had”. I started looking at this religion from outside in, and boy did it all just start making sense to me. When I realised that man created god, and not the other way around a massive burden was lifted from my heart, I could breathe again. I became the master of my own universe. It’s an unimaginably powerful sensation, and awesome.
@@pomegranatepip2482 sorry to hear about your troubled upbringing and your confused understanding of Christianity 😔. I hope you find the true meaning of grace and forgiveness and be able to let that anger eating at you go.
Dr. Rev. Billy Graham & his wife's son was also a prodigal. They never stopped loving him, praying for him, ministering to him. Franklin eventually found his way back & is still being greatly used by God & blessed. There are many faithful servants who find themselves in the same situation of having a wayward child. They may not be in the spotlight as some others but that still doesn't diminish the pain & agony that it brings. I am a retired ordained minister & our daughter is a wayward child. Our ministry is to her, to model God's love & grace with the ultimate goal being restoration.
Let Abraham see that the Light of Jesus Christ is greater than anything the world can offer
June 1st will mark 40 years in ministry for me... all in one place, so I've seen the movie go by for three generations. My observations have been if there are multiple children in a family, all raised in church by believing parents and all of them serve the Lord but one, then that is very difficult to explain. However, if there are multiple children raised in church by "believing" parents and none of them want anything to do with serving God, then something more than likely went wrong at home
I will stand with Pastor John praying and believing for his son's salvation and redemption. As long as he has breath, there is a path to repentance.. 2 Timothy 2:25- and perhaps God will grant him a repentance...
Al, the reason people don’t believe in god is either because their elders have not done a good enough job in indoctrinating them, or despite their efforts at indoctrination, the child has the kind of personality that means that they assess and seek truth through logic and fact, as opposed to bribery and the other nonsense in the various holy texts around the world. I guess that’s why the Bible encourages you to believe and not think for yourself, and why all faiths bribe you into believing at some imagined peril if you don’t. In the Christian case it’s a case of God saying that he loves us, but if we don’t believe in him we will burn in hell for eternity. I hope you are open minded enough to see the vile immorality of such a disgusting proposition, but I guess if you are a pastor, I guess not.
@@pomegranatepip2482
You do enjoy playing the Atheist troll on Christian sites !
@@jbjoeychic what christian site? this is a youtbe video and comment section
@@pomegranatepip2482 parents who have multiple children dont always raise them all the exact same way. many times parents relax their standards as they have more children
@@jbjoeychic so, I’m a troll why, because I have a different perspective on life that does not fit into your fragile religious world-view? Are you so insecure in your faith, or so terrified of your imaginary god that my presenting a different view for folks to think about is a threat to you? What’s wrong with you?
This is sad. But God hears our prayers and we believe He will come through for Abraham as well 🙏
Amen.
Name one person who is doing it right. We all fall short of the glory of God.
That’s not the standard though
We love you John Piper, praying for all the Prodigals
Not having come to Christ yet as a child is different than a son engaging in open rebellion against God having known the Truth. A pastor stepping down is obedience to the Word. It does not mean there is no place for that pastor in the church.
Prayers going up for all the prodigal and unsaved children.
There is a time To;? And a time Not To;?
We need to know the times.
I am a Christian all my life. Sometime I take a hard fall. But always love God. And see God's helping hand all the way.
But I do find some professed Bible lovers, very over bearing at times when I am in a different subject.
So I am now responding with Bible passages to help them. I am loving it.
The Bible tells us to do as the occasion requires. Not to prepare a long winded speech, but to allow God give you the words. Sometimes we can force our opinions on others. That's not what God said to do.
But do all things in the love of the Lord.
And remember God's word never returns empty. Praise God.
Titus 1:6 is about "appointing" elders not elders who were already appointed but who, years later, see their children rebel! Of course Piper doesn't have to resign because his son is an unbeliever.
Scripture teaches their children must be believers. This is sad because Piper is a great teacher. But he isn’t just a teacher but a disciple and he should obey scripture even though it’s a tough situation. Scripture applies to all men. Even talented elders.
Should a father distance himself from his son if the son doesn't share the father's religious beliefs?
No. That's petty.
Pastor John, for the fact that you are in the frontline of pulling people to our Lord Jesus Christ, you are always the number one target for the enemy and he will use anyone or anything around you to be a distraction. Keep praying for your son and we join you in that bcos the enemy is a defeated foe! Christ made sure of that on The Cross. You’re never to stop preaching or teaching, or you’d have given him what he set out to get. To stop you from helping people into God’s Kingdom. Your son will be sorted out by The Lord Himself, He’s an adult. May God bless you and your family 🙏🏻
Grace and more grace to you and your family.
Most of us are too familiar with this problem of children who - all of a sudden don't acknowledge our Savior - anymore !
It is almost unbearably painful ............ but the only peace we'll find is totally trusting our Lord and Savior to work this
out in their hearts ! I've wondered how I can possible go into eternity knowing all of my children won't be coming =[ as
it stands at the present ]= I WILL TRUST MY GOD AND SAVIOR !!!
This is why I take issue with ancient religion. I don’t have a problem with the individuals themselves that choose to believe in it but anything that drives a wedge between family is not something I can see as beneficial to anyone. As far as I’m concerned the world would be much better off if we didn’t have people frightened for the safety of their children constantly.
It says what it says. Maybe if we held to the scriptures the body would have grown stronger rather than weaker. Maybe it would have been a better witness. Maybe, just maybe even Pastor Piper shouldn't be a Pastor exactly because it says what it says.
Good comment.
I saw poor Abraham on Tik Tok, God knows his heart and only he can break that harden heart. Just like members in my family that are unsaved we just have to keep praying for them and let God work on them.
Perhaps there was something lacking in the home of John Piper--only he and his family would know. Very sad.
John Piper was missing.
Return is possible no matter how bad or final it looks. I left for 23 years and returned. I was into other religions and New Age and paganism. But Jesus called me back anyway. Definitely a miracle.
from what I observed in pastors children that stray from the Lord, it usually is when the parents behaves a certain way in the church and at home differently the other factor is extremely strictiveness forcing the child into Christ or demonizing non-demonic things. instead of becoming joyous to be a Christian becomes burdensome and saddening.
I just think it’s so interesting how people find a way to justify scripture when it directly would affect them in a negative way but they don’t do the same when it would negatively affect someone else in a different area. So having one of his children fall away….. nope… scripture isn’t referring to that. But a woman pastor or a gay Christian… “got forbid!!!! Scripture means what it says!!!”
Always different when it affects you personally.
It’s not very interesting at all basic boring human hypocrisy. Doesn’t make the gospel any less true
The pastor as long as he was preaching what was right and disciplining his kids in love if the kid decides to backslide thats on him hes responsible for his walk with God once hes passed the age of accountability pray that all these backslider church kids come back and repent
Lets pray for his sob! John always helping us with his preachs! 🙌🏼
This is heartbreaking
Right now I am 0 for 2 in raising my children. Pray for them and I will pray for yours.
It is not about praying only! Children has to know they are sinners and they need born again experience and only God can give birth so to speak!
What a silly question! Of course he should. If any adult child doesn’t want to go to church, it’s their decision. It’s no reflection on the father. Ridiculous.
While it’s true that good management doesn’t mean perfect outcome, I would also suggest that sometimes a bad outcome does indicate bad management. Both can be true. (This is not a comment on the Pipers’ situation; I know very little about that.)
My point is just that as parents we shouldn’t be easy to let ourselves off the hook. It’s very easy to try to comfort ourselves with, “We did the best we could” or “We’re doing the best we can,” but who can deny the monumental impact parenting has a on a child? Who’s to say if a child going astray *doesn’t* have something to do with the parents? Where our parenting was or is lacking, we needn’t make excuses; rather, we should embrace God’s forgiveness, and we should change, with His help.
May God spare us from being like Eli, faithful in our other ministries but utterly failing as regards our families.
This look like it hurt. I hurt for my brother! pray for him strength. :)
"Good management doesn't mean perfect outcome; it didn't for God and it doesn't for us."
I'm sorry John, I can hear the disappointment and remorse in your voice.
Proud of Abraham for escaping his father's bullshit
Did king David give up when his son was out to kill him?
Where’s your compassion Bro
I like the phrase "good management does not mean perfect outcomes". I think that sums up the whole answer.
You can hear the weight of his burden. May the Lord sustain him, until the end.
God is so compassionate and understanding and if we as His creation can go on sinning and rebelling against Him being that He is Almighty, I suppose we can forgive and not judge a mere human as a pastor who can not control an adult child from rebelling against the word of God. How many of us have family members, our own children, husbands, etc., who are living in rebellion even though we try our best to steer them on the straight and narrow path. This only solidifies my belief that only God can save! A perfect exampleof that is the apostle Paul.
I’m of two thoughts on this one. On one hand, I do realize that a son over the age of accountability (manhood, 20 years old biblically) answers for himself on judgement day. On the other hand, I also realize that the injunctions from Timothy and Titus are reflected from Genesis 18:19. For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord.
IMO, this is just as important of a litmus test as the command to be married, or not to be a drunkard, or a brawler, or not given to filthy lucre. The fact that God will judge the child independently of the father does not neutralize the judgement of the father that his child has left the faith. It is an indictment of failed fatherhood, just as a man who is not married to his mia wife is an indictment of failed husbanding. If the lists to both Timothy and Titus are imperative and comprehensive lists (which I tend to believe) then failure of any equals disqualification of the position. If you failed in the home, you have no qualification to lead the assembly as the president of the assembly or the archisynagogos, regardless of your knowledge of scripture or your eloquence in the pulpit. This does not mean that this man has no value, it simply means that he needs to embody the parable of the good shepherd and leave the ninety nine and focus on the one that has left the fold. A fathers failure to do so is deeply troubling as it indicates that someone else’s children are more important a calling than his own flesh and blood. This is unconscionable, and to remain in a position in the assembly in this state is dishonorable.
Well said and I hope John Piper will respond to these very important points you've made from scripture, which I don't think he has.
And what if he already has? Is there any action he can take that will guarantee a favourable outcome? And if that outcome never happens, he is not qualified to be a pastor even if the son in question is an adult that no longer lives in his house? That does not sound right to me.
This is all correct except I'm pretty sure Paul is referring the qualifications for ELDERSHIP. If you have been given the pastoral gift, you will pastor, it is not a appointment by the church. Pastors, teachers, evangelists etc are gifts and appointed by God. The church has erred in this fit millennia.
@@shevanbryan3549 I hear what you’re saying, but I didn’t write the list. Paul did. It’s either scripture and the light to our path or why do we even bother with it if we can ignore the parts that are inconvenient?
@@robertcain3426 Elders and pastors both come from the same word in Greek. And while it is a spiritual gift, it is also an appointment by the assembly after the initial church planting in Acts. Its also not a singular man/ position. Paul ordained elders plural in every city, for a singular assembly.
It’s amazing to read these comments and see how blind the faith community is to truth and what sits outside of its established narrative. Have not one of you stopped for a moment and wondered if the kid could be right?
They refuse to consider the idea that Abraham could be right because it throws off their whole worldview.
I think it’s just that most of us have been there before. I was saying the things this guy says when I was 16-17.
No offense to Piper, or anyone else... But I would rather be a good father than a minister to the masses. God doesn't need anyone's expertise, but the degree to which Abraham, a very intelligent and perceptive individual, has acted out can only be explained in the context of his upbringing.
it is not guaranteed that a child wil do what is right if the parents have the "right" job, or spend the right amount of time with their children
@@cathieatkinson5033 it's not a guarantee, but normally that may result in agreeing to disagree, a child feeling supported by their parents either way. They probably come back their parents faith through the years of prayer for that child. Abraham is something else. Nobody becomes that anti christian without the help of a very sour experience in churchianity. I'm just saying, I've seen it happen. The church world can suck you in and blind you to the most basic and fundamental responsibilities of parenting, especially when you're someone important like a minister or whatever. There is pressure to maintains facade. Kids aren't dumb, they see what they're parents are really about and it's devastating even if that isn't the parents intentions.
Praying with you Pastor Piper. 🙏🏾
I agree with everything in this dialogue. Only one thing is confusing. At the end when you say “perfect management doesn’t mean perfect outcome... it didn’t for God”. Is not in offering in the Kelvin perspective, and he predestined everyone to make the choices that they make. Wouldn’t everything be considered perfect outcome since he ordained it to be this way??
Not sure about all that predestined talk you mentioned, but as for the management part, you can look through Isaiah 5:1-7 for reference on how Gods perfect management didnt equal perfect outcome.
Your question is a result of the problem with the doctrine of predestination
Not everybody will be saved although God may have created a world where the maximum number of people would choose him, that's what he's saying,
@@maghesencadervaloo331 not sure a calvinist would ever say that, but maybe you're right
God's greatest gift to us is free will. Because he agape us, unconditionally. He will never force his blessings and good will on us until we decide to be blessed and accepted by Him.