What is a woman anyway?
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- Опубликовано: 10 янв 2019
- The friction between those who believe in a more traditional understanding of gender and trans activists has thrown up some interesting questions about how either side of the debate views women. For some it’s about motherhood, others femininity and some believe is just a feeling or an identity which can be picked up by anyone. In this fascinating debate, Joanna Williams argues that being a woman is more than biology, it’s whatever the woman herself makes it to be and she suggests, we need to move beyond gender categories and instead explore human potential.
Filmed at the Battle of Ideas 2018, the speakers are Heather Brunskell-Evans, Chrissie Daz, Kathy Gyngell and Joanna Williams. The chair is Ella Whelan.
As an indigenous person, using a term you know nothing about in order to justify your arguments is just wrong.
"Twospirit" is NOT transgender. Nor did it deny the biological sex of the individual. They were still a man or a woman. For instance it could refer to a woman who was a mother, and nurturer, but also a warrior. A dichotomy of two opposing types of characteristics. It could apply to a male, who performed more female roles, and to healers etc. in no way did it ever erase their biological sex, or claim that they were in the wrong body.
yeah I had a feeling these people were bastardizing words they had no idea what they were talking about. It's always "Two Spirit" or "Intersex" that these people love to use to justify the faulty ideology of transgenderism when those things are not transgender.
Opiumbrella 33 I see. I have heard lots of people speaking about two spirts people. I’m please someone has explained. 💕🙂
Thanks for this perspective and clarification
Thank you SO MUCH for this. I needed someone else to say it. Co-opting culture to further your agenda...disgraceful
Those are white, mostly male activists, who view not only womanhood but different cultures as tokens in their argument.
Do not call me a 'Cis' woman.
@kwnyupstate lol
Exactly! There is no such thing as a cis woman. Women are women. The word does not need to be modified.
^ check out this cis woman over here
I hate that word! Cis!
@Walter De wit Transwomen aren't women so "Cis" is nonsensical.
How misogynistic that its males who are "allowed" to define womanhood in a way that includes themselves and erases the female experience and actual women are not allowed to define womanhood for themselves to the exclusion of the male experience.
It's a men's rights movement in a dress. When you understand that, it all suddenly makes sense.
How, in retrospect, mysandrinistic is it that a woman attempts to speak for men and assume that we are unaffected by this trans movement and to assume that men are not allowed to feel uncomfortable.
@@FactsOverFeelingzWho exactly are you referring to?
@FatiFleur-jn7ky I'm referring to the so-called feminist in this video that tries speaking for men. Btw, to op, women are allowed to define themselves to the exclusion of men by taking claim to that which only women can do, and that entails motherhood. Motherhood is what differentiates women from men. Men can not have children and, therefore, are excluded from motherhood. The problem is that motherhood is seen as a punishment for most feminist women and is not seen as a moral duty by women and therefore is shunned in modern society. It's a shame, really. Also, men aren't "allowed" to do anything. We do what we do because we build a system that affords us rights to do what we must. That system affords women the safety to complain about everything to the exclusion of men all the time. Men are being excluded from their children's lives, being excluded from homes to raise their children, being excluded from the narrative by women stating that they don't need men. Understand something. Men allow this to happen because if we all left you women in the west alone and moved, you would all be conquered in a week. To "allow" is for the more powerful in physical strength. Men are physically stronger than women. Period. That means we allow women to spread this nonsense and is because we care, but give a foot, and they take a mile. It's sad how women think they truly have power over men. This is why you have men trying to act like women. Women trying to act like men. Men are stronger physically. We own the power of force. No one forces us. We force ourselves and "allow" women equality even though they can't force us to. You think of all men in the world wanted to stop doing something, that there is anything a woman could do to force us to keep going? It's irrational. There is a man who said it perfectly. Women are jealous of man's power and ownership over force. It angers women to no end that they can't make themselves, generally, stronger than men. The way they show this jealousy is by trying to be men and use our rules against us, which we allow, through our systems of peace.
@@FactsOverFeelingz Men afford women the safety to complain...so are you a woman? You sure b!tch a lot.
Gender identity sound a lot like religious identity, which is determined by beliefs.
Us christians don't deny that it is a belief. A strong internalised belief that shape how we live our life and that we believe is tied to the spiritual reality of Jesus, but a belief nonetheless.
True! All metaphysics and yet race couldn't be brought into this; I'm a white person and I must accept that's all I ever can be.
Language is a belief system. Is language a religion?
@@JeffCaplan313 don't be a idiot
@@JeffCaplan313 Language, in its proper use, is supposed to be *universally understood.* If one person calls a tree a tree, everyone needs to call that same entity a tree, otherwise it leads to confusion. We can't have a million different definitions for what constitutes a woman or utter chaos / confusion is bound to occur. Proper use of language is 100% opposed to any sort of subjective beliefs, which is the point. We need to have agreed upon definitions in order to even communicate.
I was once a man trapped in a woman’s body but then I was born
Not really. You were a woman who wanted to be a man, and then you decided to undergo changes to be like a man - something you will never truly be. You can decide to call yourself anything you like, do with your body what you like - no one's throwing rocks at you. Do what you like, live as you wish, but stop taking away the free speech of other people - free speech to be able to call things what they are. If you believe that your genitals do not determine your gender then there's not a need to mutilate them in order to become the other sex.
LOL, true! Welcome to the big wide world. x :)
Deep
@Jelle Dekkers thats so obvious... how did he miss it?
@@alexanderdean8682 damn, you totally missed it...this was a joke, saying he was an unborn male baby then his mother gave birth to him.🤦♀️🤦♂️
And Marc - don;t listen to Alex, you are truly a man 🏆 😁
Two years ago, I don't think I'd ever heard people discussing gender issues - now it's practically a daily occurrence. It has resulted in people being harrassed, cancelled and even losing their jobs. Some transactivists, many of whom aren't trans themselves, can come across as bullies who don't want to debate but simply want to silence opposing voices.
The Covid-19 pandemic resulted in very high levels of public spending. Current estimates of the total cost of government Covid-19 measures range from about £310 billion to £410 billion. This is the equivalent of about £4,600 to £6,100 per person in the UK. ------ Its a distraction while they rob us blind.
👏 👏 👏
That’s how sociogenic illnesses, culture bound syndromes work: it’s not a slow, informed, gradual and sort of always present in the background change; it’s rapid on an individual and societal level.
Social media represents a ‘cluster’ the likes of which we have never seen.
I feel like I'm Brad Pitt, I've knew I was Brad Pitt since I was a child, y'all have to accept me for who I am, Brad Pitt.
Children want to be a cowboy one week and a ballerina the next, till they are adults, leave the children alone, or you will suffer the consequences of societies backlash!
One of my daughter's friends wanted to be a horse!
@@flamelily2086 well let em be it and well see what comes out... only they can know and define ... cuz its their life
@Green Monster Can It might be. Maybe we "cis people" will never understand what it is to "be a woman in a man's body". It may be, that we just by luck have the "right body". But despite that, this is not a reason to cut their organs off or talk of it as "anyone that feels like a boy is a boy". This would include about %30 of women. Many women feel like men but are women. So where do we draw the line? We can not normalize this as it was a hobby.
@Green Monster Can tom boys for example.
Internalist language + lack of normative standards to define it = nonsense. Gender activists: "Women are not defined by biology! It is a fluid non-concept that transcends physical appearance and organs! Stop limiting me by biological reality!", also gender activists: "A man who says he feels like a woman is totally legit! They sure know precisely what it is like to be a woman since they can totally define it and they happen to be in the wrong body! Meaning BEFORE they were born they were a girl but during an act of birth accident happened..." So their point of view ability to claim that you were born in the "wrong" body points to the existence of some sort of pre-physical essence (do they care to demonstrate existence of souls and ghosts, perhaps?). What a bunch of vapid incoherent nonsense.
Let me save you an hour and a half: a woman is an adult human female, periodt.
Exactly!
I really enjoyed all the different facets raised in this very respectful discussion, both by the panellists and audience.
Of course you are right, a woman is an adult female human, that's the definition of the word. But the discussion was about much more than defining the word, and so very much worth a listen through.
Particularly as a rare example (these days) of people with differing viewpoints, listening and reflecting and responding to one another in a respectful and calm manner. Seems like that's becoming a rare phenomenon in the age of sensationalism, where the more offended someone claims to be the larger an audience they seem able to attract.
*I love how these sort of women try so hard, to make blissfully straight-forward subjects, into something so (allegedly) complicated, deep and meaningful. **_"What Is A Woman Anyway?"_** A woman is an adult female, as opposed to a man, who is an adult male. Next question?*
@liz t Clearly I was responding specifically to the title of the debate - hence me quoting it in my comment. But to answer your question, yes I did watch the debate, and overall, I thought it was 81 minutes of claptrap and bullshit. Claptrap and bullshit which most of the panel have made pretty lucrative careers out of spouting on debate panels!
Ella (Whelan) got things off to an horrendous start by referring to _"cis-women"._ Demonstrating very clearly that she is part of the problem in society regarding all this nonsense. As far as I'm concerned, the subject matter isn't even worth talking about, let alone dragging out into an 81 minutes debate. If the snowflake generation don't like the facts, tough! The concept of self-identifying is complete hogwash, If you were born a male, you're a man or boy. If you were born a female, you're a woman or girl. That's it!
A man/boy can't simply dress to look like a female, and therefore be one, and vice versa. Similarly, you can have as many surgical procedures as you want... including having your penis and testcles removed and replaced with a cavity. But that cavity is never going to miraculously turn into a vagina. A male who dresses like a female is simply what they've always been referred to as, i.e. a transvestite. And that's pretty much the whole story. Though I'd be more than happy to discuss the subject further, with anyone. Well, anyone with a modicum of intelligence and a firm grasp of reality that is!
@@DrAnne-mc8erAre you comfortable with the rest of feminist theory? Also, I'm not going to be asking people what genitalia they have, you can if you want, but if I think it's a woman I'll call her a woman, not complicated at all. The thing is this, I pretty much completely reject they concept of patriarchy, so I am watching this from the sidelines, but I really wonder how you can be an intersectional feminist excluding trans people, or being only a feminist in this day and age.
@@killbillgoodfellas Hi
Tomás, and thank you for responding to my earlier comments and opinions. Let me begin by clarifying that I respect *all people,* based upon what I see as their flaws and merits as individuals. So no, I'm not at all comfortable with *any* aspect of feminist theory. In exactly the same way that I'm not at all comfortable with *any* aspect of masculist theory either. I too, have never asked anyone what genitalia they have. Nor do I have any intention of ever doing so, as I would consider it to be extremely invasive, offensive and rude. I choose to ignore your attempt at sarcasm on that point by the way.
The next point we seem to disagree on is that I *entirely* reject the concept of patriarchy, rather than just _"...pretty much"_ so, as you claim. Equally, I *entirely* reject the concept of matriarchy too, and for all the same reasons. Though I'm not entirely sure why you feel that should force either of us into _"...watching this from the sidelines"?_
Last but not least, you say you wonder how I can be an intersectional feminist by excluding trans people, or by being only a feminist. With respect
Tomás, you've taken a whole lot for granted there. Firstly, I'm *not* an intersectional feminist, and would never claim to be one. Furthermore, I resent your suggestion that I might even *want* to be one. Secondly, I further resent your accusation that I might *only* want to be a feminist in this day and age. As I said in my first paragraph, I'm not (at all) comfortable with *any* aspect of feminist theory *or* feminism either for that matter.
The bottom line
Tomás, and I suspect this is where your ideas *and* ideals turn to dust, is that if someone professes to be a feminist, a masculist, or even an intersectional feminist, they are, *by definition NOT* a supporter of equality for all. *Either way,* you are _taking sides,_ regardless of whether you choose to watch from the sidelines, sit in the dugout, or play on the pitch. And I would *never* support inequality in any of it's forms. Please feel free to ask for clarification on anything I've expressed here, or on the topic of transexuals and/or transexuality, which is after all, the topic originally being discussed. Please stay healthy and considerate of those around you. Best wishes.
@@DrAnne-mc8er Ok, that was surprising. Most people arguing against transgender theory in this particular context tend to be feminists. That's what I mean by watching from the sideline, it's a conflict within feminism. I'm not saying there is no agreement or disgreement from other people, but this particular talk is from a very feminist perspective. I tend to watch this sort of thing just to see where different people are coming from. And though neither you or I are feminists that's the context of this discussion. I'm pretty sure most of the people leaving comments here are TERFs, who I honestly have trouble just tolerating. Their entitlement is just too much.
Personally, I find sex change operations too barbaric, akin to a lobotomy. There has to be another solution other than cut someone's genitalia. But it's an opinion because I don't really know. I stay up to date with the genetic side of things since that's my field but I can't know if a trans person actually feels like they need to turn their genitalia into an imitation of sorts. But I can say that there are multiple genetic and epigenetic markers that predispose people to transgenderism, and since calling it a delusion is reductive and plainly incorrect, so far I can't think of a different course of action for trans people. And if I can't provide that, I won't criticize the current methods.
I do have to say that defining woman as adult female is really bad circular logic, at least in this particular context. Essentially it's the same as saying ''a woman is a woman'' which is identical to ''trans women are women''. Given how many times that exact definition is displayed in this comment section, I find it more akin to a political slogan or some kind of mantra than a serious attempt at a rebutal.
@@killbillgoodfellas I thoroughly enjoyed reading what you had to say
Tomás, and I would very much like to respond in similar depth. Unfortunately however, I need to be at work in an hour so I don't have time right now.But in the words of Arnold Schwarzenegger, *_"I'll Be Back!"_* LOL. Stay healthy.
I love the first speaker! Thank you for speaking on behalf of REAL women! It's always us who get the short end of the stick. I will not accept this as anything more than rebranded misogyny. A man can NEVER tell me he is a woman!
BS. Trans women get a MUCH shorter ende of the stick then cis women. They suffer from mysogeny, homophobia, and transphobia, all at once.
TOTALLY AGREE 👏 👏
Five years ago I would have thought the third speaker was horrible, as a single lesbian I thought gender roles in society were BS. I realized that we have demoralized the most important job in the world... motherhood. Staying home to raise children was something for the ignorant and the brainwashed. But I realized that destroying this role may be part of a larger agenda and we all bought it hook line and sinker. I’m not saying I think we should be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant. I’m saying that this role should be respected and appreciated. I have so many friends now in their 40s that focused their career and now are desperately trying to have a child and can’t. I don’t mean women should not work outside the home they should do whatever they feel their personal path is. But they shouldn’t be brainwashed into thinking your career is the most important thing in life because in the end it isn’t. I have so much respect for my motherWho stayed home with us when we were little, and then began teaching at university when we were old enough to look after ourselves. I appreciate what she sacrificed for me.
I also feel that the LGBT movement has been hijacked. I never really felt discriminated against in my life. Maybe a dumb comment here or there but nothing that mattered. The only thing I couldn’t do was get married.I also never threw it in peoples faces or based
my entire identity around sexual preference. I think things are equal now everybody has the same rights and it’s time to just shut up and live our lives. The trans people I know are not science deniers or demanding that people pretend that they are biological women. I personally don’t even want to be associated with the entire movement anymore it’s embarrassing and I hope people realize that the small group of Insane people that want to feel important do not represent the vast majority of us.
Audra - Well put indeed...
Anything to add ?
Awesomely stated!! 🙌🏽💪🏽🙌🏽💪🏽
This is how all the agendas have been pushed. Playing the victim. Even though no one has descriminated. Divide and conquer.
@@sana409 Not all agendas, just the ones that exhibit toxic femininity, which is all about achieving power through deceit and manipulation as opposed to through overt actions.
I am blaming the entertainment, medical, psychiatric, pharmacology, and social engineering industries for this mess. I am also blaming the public education system, too. They are making a LOT of money on this transgender and trans-sexual issue.
Citation please.
@@rowedtrippa6219 That might take writing an article to lay it all out, or a book. But, it should be fairly easy to understand there could be a profit motive and bias involved on the part of some people and industries in these issues.
@@rowedtrippa6219 Can't speak for everything live oak said, but here is the cost of transition surgery: www.verywellhealth.com/sex-reassignment-surgery-srs-3157235 . Keep in mind that one person's cost is another person's profit.
@@eiyukabe You could say the same thing about oncology services.
@@rowedtrippa6219 Honestly, you can. Everything health related in America is perverted by the profit motive to the point it is inhumane. This country is fucked up.
Adult human female.
We just need to use the biological terms for Female and Male and ditch gender all together.
Back in the day, they were interchangeable.
the heat, no we don't. Just accept that people don't have to live up to gender stereotypes.
This idea that people have to wear clothes and make-up/no make-up, take hormones and have their genitalia surgically altered based on their interests and mannerisms is what has to be ditched. It's a very new idea, and it's pure trash.
@@tinahochstetler2189 What you just described is the definition of gender the exact thing I said we should ditch dumb dumb 😂😂😂😂😂. The biological term for Male and female is sex and is defined by the reproductive organs at birth and pronouns should correlate to sex not gender. There are feminine males and masculine females and I agree you shouldn't go get knifed up to to fit societies stereotype of Male and female gender roles. That is why I said we need to just ditch gender and stick to biological terms especially in public, professional and legal settings.
This is what radical feminists believe also.
Hmm are you saying that we should have a genderless society? We all use neutral pronouns and our sex is used for medical purposes only? That way, the concept of gender is destroyed.
Cover a peeled orange in apple skin and it's still an orange.
Just because a dog is born in a barn, doesn't make it a horse. Just saying.
@@footyfan1248 Who is saying anything about the location of birth? Who is saying that a women is being incorrectly labelled as a man (or vice versa) because they were born inside one type of building or another? If a baby is born in an aircraft hanger, are you suggesting someone would label them a Cessna?
@@JD-yp9ki No, if a baby was born in an aircraft hangar, it would be a baby, not an aircraft. You cannot incorrectly label. You are born as either male or female and nothing that you do changes that.
@@footyfan1248 Ok, we're in agreement then :)
For the woman in the audience who said she was offended by the definition of a woman as reducing her to just her body parts, I say your body is what makes you a woman, but if being a woman is your only identity then you are severely lacking as a human being. Become more than just a woman, and then you won't find it offensive. There are so many more aspects to human beings than their your sex.
She chose the narrowest frame possible based on the biological definition just she could have something to be offended by. "Speaking as a woman", I have no problem with that definition, which is biologically correct and very useful as a reminder in this times when we speak and act too much on beliefs and feelings. Also, I do agree that every person is much more than their biology, and to deny either is to hold a very simplistic look at life.
@@bogdiworksV2 I agree with you wholeheartedly. She was just looking for something to be offended by. like our body parts is what makes us different on the most basic level.
A woman is a human who was born with a womb. That’s what the letters “wo” means in the word WOMAN.
Good try tho! It would simplify this argument so much if that were true.
Markinpuff she is not human
Markinpuff what is a woman with out a man wo. Man is God manifested (we hold the seed of life) what is she without us? Tell me
Brandon Malik Rashid And vice versa.
@@Markinpuff this where my argument begins, you and your 'vica versa'
Posie Parker can give you the answer (s)
Posie can't give any answers, she can only spread around well known TERF bullshit. You all should watch her Triggernometry video to see how stupid she is.
@@miriamlana833 is that the one TRA demanded be taken off RUclips?
@@miriamlana833 im lgbt and loved her video. A trans woman will never know what its like to menstruate or get pregnant. They have no cervix and thats ok. Their lived experience is SO different and realizing those differences is not bad.
Trans people deserve distinction. They live a totally different life than cis women
‘TERF’ is widely considered to be a slur, including among some trans. The labels are dehumanizing designed to coerce ppl into silence, but views are much more nuanced than any label. You dont win the game of inclusion by excluding millions from the conversation.
@@janospergely3805 And they still have a prostate. I wonder if those people who believe sex is not real or does not determine gender don't take their daughter to gynecologists. I think they really don't believe this bullshit.
Anyone can identify, live and dress as they want but they cannot dictate to me how I feel about them or how I refer to them... compelling me to act or speak to trans women in the way they want me to is deny me my rights of free expression. As Posy Parker says ‘Don’t expect me to indulge you in your fantasy’
This is how I feel. No one can dictate to me how to interpret reality in my own mind. I can respect someone’s right to think of themselves as a woman...but will they respect my right to see them as a man pretending to be a woman? The over arching goal of these trans rights activists (and I specify that group in particular because I don’t believe they speak for all trans people) seems to be to impose their view of themselves on others and to categorically deny us the right to acknowledge the existence of sexually dimorphic biology in humans,
How many trans people have done this to you and what sort of compulsion did they use?
Because my experience is, most of the complaints made about compulsion stem from cis people arguing amongst themselves, about trans people, and usually (read almost every single time) cis people don't have the faintest idea what a trans person is which is why they keep refering to ideology, and transgenderism, as if being trans is some kind of a choice.
Why are we not asking "what is a man anyway?" ??
Gee, I wonder why... could it be... misogyny?
Precisely!!
I believe that it’s because womanhood has always been under attack (by men historically) and manhood.. just never has been. Men don’t feel threatened by trans-men because we don’t have as much (of anything ) to lose and women have SO MUCH VALUE and tragically this is just an extension of the continuous attack on womanhood
Exactly - notice too how the word ‘man’ is never censored. The wokeists call us ‘vulva people’, but men are not ‘penis people’. (And nor should they be.)
Speaking as a man (here we go again), men have always asked this question about themselves. They just are reluctant to speak out about it.
The 'less than 30 year olds' females asking questions are so ideologically driven. It seems to me that they are, and are destined by their mindset to be, very unhappy with their lives.
They will never know why.
Lonely cat ladies to be
@@musicworship4520 right but lonely is not awesome soooooo
But they got insta...
@HEdy Goldblum yeah I mean I'm not sure anyone really thinks having a man at home is a prize. But how does having a man at home make one less free and is it just men? Or any form of significant other in the home that strips one of their freedom? Tell me how great would it feel to grow old have no kids no marriage or long term relationship, and die with no loved ones by your side? How amazing would it be to spend you r retirement years without a companion? How fun does it sound to share none of your special memories with the same person? And how insignificant are the memories one misses out of by not having someone around to make them with? I would submit that a life alone would be rather disappointing and empty.
I wish people would stop using two spirit people and intersex people to bolster the trans debate.
It's the trans-identified people who do that though, not the gender critical people.
But those things are relevant. Intersex people show that sex isn’t just male vs female.
@@rowedtrippa6219 incorrect as they (VSD's) are rare sex specific medical conditions. Those with them are still all male or female. There are only 2 sexes, male and female.
@@ccwellnesssolutions8964 Actually, a) they’re not rare, and b) some fall well outside what would be considered strictly female or male, in terms of chromosomes, genetics, and karyotype. Look up Pidgeon Pagonis, as just one nonbinary intersex person of many.
@@rowedtrippa6219 they are. Chromosomes are not sex and chromosome variations result in males and females.
People born with congenital sex development conditions (classically referred to as intersex), when fertile, either develop a phenotype that produces sperm or ova. Not both, and not something new.
Not a bit male or a bit female. Simply male or female with VSD.
If a men wont’s to live (like) a woman instead of trying to become a real woman why doesn’t he embrace the two together and be a Sheman wear woman clothing wear makeup and a beard so know one confuses adult human women, with transgenders, and we don’t lose everything we have worked for, Have laws to protect the Sheman, and leave us the adult human women, alone,and stay out of OUR SAFE SPACES.
The thought that we are in an age where that has to b a question... What is this world coming to for real...
"A woman is born with 2 chromosomes."
Really? Not 46?
only 2 chromosomes different from the males, apparently the 23rd pair of chromosomes determin sex and the rest are the same
haha
@@hazelstewart3295 If only they had said that in the video...
Talking about sex chromosomes. There is only 2 sex chromosomes in woman.
There's are called Germaine chromosomes.
The other chromosomes are called somatic.
@@hazelstewart3295 males have a Y chromosome. women don't.
When a white woman talks about 'two spirit' and misunderstands indigenous culture. I listened to an indigenous woman talk about this during WOLF conference.
This frustrates me so much as an indigenous woman. Some cultures used to practice alchemy, Should we abandon chemistry because of this history? It’s a total reach and exploitation of culture.
Feminists didn't plagiarize Karl Marx's "means of production." They adapted it. An overt play on a famous phrase isn't plagiarism.
I'm in love with the first lady. This is exactly what I think. Thank you for giving me a voice; as a millennial, I am not allowed to speak with that particular voice.
I'm glad you noticed her.
Yes you are. Don't let anyone stop you. Speak up. People may try to hurt you, but the truth is worth fighting for.
Lw: And yet, here you are, doing it.
18:18 : I wake up in my old body every day and thank god I was born when I was! IT WAS GREAT!
Woman: Adult human female. That's not complicated at all, is it?
Man: Adult human male.
If people are actually confused over what male and female mean, check a veterinary or zoological text book.
That's not a thorough enough definition because you could go on and ask... what is an adult human female? What does female mean? It has a longer and more nuanced definition than just "adult female."
The definition came from observable differences of human bodies in reality. Females produce egg gametes or have the equipment to and males produce sperm gametes or have the equipment to. The difference between the gametes are one is larger & static and one is smaller and mobile.
@@Wallacer theat's a generalization only valid on species level. On individual level, there are also non-gamete-producers aka infertile individuals, part of them is not/only arbitrary sexable, because the sex characteristics are ambiguous. Part of them "from birth" (intersexuals), and other part of them "man made" (physically transitioned trans people). That all is "physical reality" and observable, denying that is sex essentialism. You see, not that easy.
@@ernietbone4168 no, we don't ignore it, but "born with" is not always the present state, and only the present state should count.
@@ernietbone4168 what shall be the essence of sex which "can't be changed"? Only saying it without anything meaningful behind is senseless.
If you see chromosomes or the SRY gene which are only sex characteristics as the essence of sex, yes, they can't be changed, but only because of the present lack of technology. Other sex characteristics can already be changed.
I totally agree with Kathy Gyngell's opening but I can't help feeling that nobody cares any more. She's right, both factually and morally (although, of course, that's a subjective call) but her point of view is sadly outside society's Overton window.
My experience of being a woman is through my body and culture of the many different tribes of women ive met, my idea of the world, my female drive to understand my past and present as a woman. My struggle to find how to orgasm, the fun of finding out all the mysogny told to me about my vagina was wrong, the feeling of my period pain going when I realised that orgasms gets rid of pain and prevents thrush, that I expand and shrink. My female smell. The commonality of talking to other women about rape and abortion. The shame experienced through the dangers of hate thrown at my body medically and sexually. Everything I've experienced is experienced by most biological women. I can just connect. Its an experience a collective experience. I do not have this experience with trans women. Because there experience is a trans experience a male experience. I am a woman and I am like other biological women no matter how butch or femm or whatever, its just a reality.
That was great you are so right and again as WOmen we have just connected . THANKS GIRL !!
Exactly 💯
As a lifelong feminist, I have always valued motherhood. So I don’t agree with that particular woman panelist at all (the one who started talking @18:14 with the joke about the 1970s obsession with sex). Without second-wave feminism, I could not have succeeded, as I have, in a traditionally male profession. The other reason I could do this is because my husband is a good man and a great father. He is a great father, he loves our children as much as I do, but I still understand the personal reality that our children were made from my flesh and blood.
Because I moved into a traditionally male profession, I certainly experienced prejudice in my career. But second-wave feminism made it possible for me to succeed. My sexed body has restricted me from some activities, I accept that reality.
An adult human female….it can’t be any simpler than that, I will always be polite but I will not join someone else’s delusion
Woman = Adult Human Female. I am NOT "cis".
This conversation proves that our society is nearing its end.
18:00 - she says the 70's were easy going. I feel the same about the 90's and even 00's.
Yeah it's only the last 5 years or so it's all turned a bit dystopian.
Rose tinted view or what?
@@MuddledCat Personal experience?
@@lilacDaisy111 hers obviously yes, but given the way women were treated and children were given freely to paedophiles she’s obviously keeping her blinkers on and not listening to others experiences. History isn’t purely based on one persons experience and perspective.
@@lilacDaisy111 Yep, the 90s and noughties were definitely more easy going. None of this social media and smartphone crap, kids used to play more outside and not get hooked on smartphones. Gender ideology was at its best in the noughties.
I have now watched countless debates on this topic. And not once have they ever talked about the most basic facts of why we even have these debates. And here it is:
The fact of a matter is, that science can’t change your Chromosomes. This means that biologically speaking, you can cut off your genitals, go trough hormone therapy, no matter how far you go, you can’t change your DNA. This means that you sex will never change!!!
Now keeping this fact in mind, you can clearly see that the whole debate is actually nothing more than a discussion of moral, belief, feelings, social constructs etc.
Can somebody please explain why the hell this is so hard to understand or what I am missing here???
You've hit the nail on the head. Long story short, read Jordan Peterson or Stephen Hicks. I'm a theoretical physicist and 100% scientist, and agree with you. However, our ideas are defined as modernistic and we face a threat from postmodernism. This advocates that absolutely everything is open to interpretation. Postmodernists identify scientific reasoning as only one interpretation of the real world and that facts are just words. They will deconstruct any interpretation that you give as just 'your opinion', and that 'their opinion' is as valid as yours. Worse still, if they don't like your opinion, they will cancel you. In the trans issue, they are essentially saying that the socially constructed definition of a woman trumps the scientific definition, science is cancelled out, and that their definition of a woman is primary. Hence trans women, by their definition, are women. If you oppose this definition, you are immediately labelled transphobic, guilty of a hate crime, or a TERF. The irony here is that they insist upon tolerance, equality and acceptance, yet are openly hostile to alternative views. It is this contradiction that negates their views.
Well actually DNA was discovered in the last century. So before it would not been related to science. And there are many things not related to sex such as heritage, that can be through DNA.
As a man i watched my wife carry my child for nine months and all she went through, it was not that easy. After my child was born it was the most beautiful and amazing thing a women can do. Of course women can do a lot more, this is one thing a transwoman will never be able to experience.
That's a beautiful sentiment. Of course, an infertile woman is still a woman, I know you weren't trying to imply that they're not. And trans "women" know that, I will never accept, and no women should, a man telling me he is a woman. I will never say I am a man or pretend to know what you go through, and I expect the same. This is a global violation of women's boundaries.
Medicine and technology is moving fast in 100 years that would be possible for a male to be pregnant. If someone told Christopher Columbus people will be travel from Spain to the New Spain in 8hrs . We would not believe.
You’re a joke. Man, seriously ???
In railing against feminists generally, Cathy Gyngell doesn't seem to understand that if it wasn't for feminism, she wouldn't be on the panel in the first place - none of the women would be and instead, only men would be discussing what it means to be a woman. She takes her hard-won (by other people, that is) freedoms for granted and spits in the faces of those who fought for them, simply because they didn't get it 'perfect' the first time around. Her expectations of first and second wave feminists are unreasonable. They were not invited into the workplace as women; instead, they were allowed in as honorary men. They were expected by compete like men, against men, in work places that had been created by and for men. Having been excluded for so long, they felt huge pressure to reach the male standard of behaviour, or face a return to their former position of voicelessness and total dependency on men. It shouldn't surprise this woman then, that women largely tried to alter themselves to fit the workplace and its culture, instead of demanding that the workplace be altered to fit them. Thus macho culture prevaded in many sectors.
Now that women (and men) are suffering the negative consequences of this culture, of being required to work inhumane hours while facing increasing financial uncertainty, they are beginning to question whether the system works for anyone, even men, and whether other parts of life, like parenthood, should not be valued more. However, these things take time, so forgive the first generation of women in the workplace for not entirely realising their feminine value - they were busy trying to prove that they could compete with men, so that they might earn themselves the freedom that every person deserves.
Gyngell's response to this is to point to random instances of feminine power in history as though they prove that women have not been largely subjugated by men. What nonsense! In the last century alone, European women have been forced to quit their jobs upon marriage, they have been denied the right to vote, they have been denied the right to a bank loan without a husband, they have been legally forced to endure another person living off their body without their consent (something that is not demanded of any man), they have been blamed for the violence of men towards them, they have been subjected to marital rape and the law has denied the very crime itself. These are just some examples of the subjugation women faced at the hands of men and the legal system they created to dominate them, and for Gyngell to apparently ignore all this and assume that her presumably privileged experience, given her accent, is universal to women is ignorant and, above all else, weak, but then again, conservatives are not exactly known for their capacity to empathise.
A woman is an adult human female. End of.
ANYWAY having spent many hours online witnessing and being drawn into ridiculous pointless one-phrase arguments, this was refreshing to have people actually express opinions without it being overtaken by hatred and anger and shutting down.
26 ! Dear lord save us all. A woman can give birth. A woman can nurture a feed a child from her body . An adult human female. The end .
Jeebuz. That blonde lady who goes on and on about how we don't talk about men enough in a conference titled "What is a woman anyway?" Why do men always have to be the center of the conversation even when we are talking about women?
Women are women and trans women are trans women.
Gynocologists are doctors for specifically for women, not for trans women. You cannot erase what a woman is.
In my country, trans women have gynocologists because they're accepted by the gyocologists as women too
@@moif_velocita A gynecologist is a doctor who specializes in female reproductive health. They diagnose and treat issues related to the female reproductive tract. This includes the uterus, fallopian tubes, and ovaries and breasts. Anyone with female organs may see a gynecologist. - not sure what they need to see a gynaecologist for? Unless they are intersex.
@@Charrison9918 They administer and monitor HRT, take note and care of the physical changes that occur in the trans woman's genitalia and help them with any and all other medical issues that arise from transition.
@@moif_velocita good for them - they aren't women, they aren't having a baby. Do they have their own midwives too? ha - you complete insufferable fool.
Woman , adult female human
37:12, fair point. Activists are not helping their cause by branding anyone they want as Phobic, and their herd mindlessly falls in line. This whole topic is loaded with emotion and well worded opinions, rather than rational thinking and facts. People projecting their own experiences onto children and using that as ammunition to show they truly care. Let kids be kids, they can sort it all out later in life, if and when THEY decide it is right for them.
adult human female. that's it, that's the only definition.
And the definition has never changed. Look in any dictionary and Woman still is defined by being an Adult Human Female and a man is an Adult Human Male. So I really don't understand how this kinda thing thinking got so far.
It is more than personality. And I'm happy that that people are having a good time with this topic.... because in a way it is slightly insulting to no longer be recognized for being a woman. Where the heck did we go wrong?????? The only people who recognize us are people who want us to have their babies??????
Never call me a Cis woman😈
Ok brother.
I don’t like that the last word was about motherhood being boring, the aspect of ‘reducing’ personhood down to motherhood like it’s a bad word.
I am so happy that I chose motherhood over career. My three children are probably grateful too. It makes me sad for people to think I reduced my self in any way... I am a bigger and better person for it.
@@rebeccasmith3408 yup, it's what I want as well. I'm due in January.
I found that I suffer from depression because I can't afford to stay home. I hate that I miss so much. And this is not something that women talk about.
@@puddles609 women are made to feel like we are lacking ambition if we want to stay home...if we went back to lifting men up for their masculinity and stop making it toxic to be the big strong man who works hard and takes care of his family hell or high water more may want to do it. A lot of men are told now their wives are lazy or the men are fools because their wives are "not contributing" if they dont want to work. Its disgraceful. A healthy mom and home is the place for a child if it's possible. If we really cant see the decline in our society since we began deriding men for doing what they've done since the beginning of time we are just being willfully and quite woefully ignorant. Sad strange times.... I worked most of my childrens lives but not when they were babies ... that was my time... and never in any position where work had to take precedent over anything important to our lives.
Rebecca Smith what’s wonderful is women have the CHOICE now. Only a short time ago the only option was to find a man and raise kids. People still put down women’s decisions no matter what!
Kathy's argument is essentially "I didn't experience discrimination (which is highly unlikely but whatever) therefore no woman in my demographic experiences discrimination". Also she's disregarding so much of the history and facts it's actually sad. No one is saying that women were not there or that they weren't strong. What we're saying is people are confined in gender roles with subjugate women and that history was written by men. How can you argue against that with a straight face ???
Men are discriminated against all the time we just turn it into some victimhood badge to walk around with all the time. If women are as strong as men, maybe start acting like it instead of bitching and moaning all the time?
Absolutely right. So shocking how these handmaidens keep on repeating the same misogynist stuff.
I believe we are living in an incredible time, we are allowed to be so arrogant and selfish and disregarding of the opposite sex because of how privileged we all are to be here in this time. We don’t have to soak ourselves in past disparaties while denying how men suffered through time too. There are good people in all groups. Including MEN. We need to stop renting mind space to toxic people and ideas.
Cathy Gyngell shines here. Teach young people what it's like to be a good person. ❤
What is "a good person"?
There is no "believe in a more traditional understanding of gender". "Woman" and "man" are words naming either of the two sexes. Sex is a biological (or physical) realitiy.
Trans* doesn't refer to gender either, trans* is about gender identity. Something totally different.
I’m a person 😘🥳💖 I suffered as a teenager as I thought I wasn’t a woman as the media pushed fashion and I didn’t fit in the mould . I’m happy being a person who is female !!! Yep I don’t what the fuss is either ❤️
I was born in a wrong body; a Latino body but now I want to transition to a European white men, so call me white now...
Very glad this type of discussion is happening. I’m interested in the argument that privileging feelings over biology is just as wrong as privileging the other way around. That said, I’m frustrated by the inability of one panelist to see past her own experience in re the question of women’s victimization. I don’t know when “victim” became a dirty word, but it seems to have happened at the same time as the statistical truth of the extent of women’s social/cultural oppression is slowly being faced. I’m glad for women like the panelist who said she’s never faced discrimination or other forms of oppression. But at the same time, she’s apparently closed her ears and her mind to those of us who have. Citing the one and only British female chieftain who we know about in thousands of years of history is absolutely ridiculous; Bouddicea is the exception that proves the rule. I also oppose the notion that all women want to have children and are good nurturers. It’s simply not the case, and doesn’t define womanhood - not to mention that there are many men who are wonderful at nurturing. To define sexes according to some static, mid-twentieth century ideal is regressive and just wrong. As a child growing up in the late 50’s through the early 70’s, I can attest that many people, men and women both, were absolutely miserable within that rigid system. It’s part of the reason for the rampant alcoholism and pill-popping that went on during that era. Feminism was never intended to denigrate childrearing and homemaking, except as it was forced upon women, with a corresponding social scaffolding that kept women from the workplace. We still have to work harder than men for less pay (in the U.S., anyway), and even so are subjected to the “old boy” networks. This isn’t a political position, but the life experience of many women I know, young and old, and even more so women of color. The numbers don’t lie. Pointing out exceptions is counterproductive and ruins the quality of the discussion, as exceptions, by definition, don’t represent most peoples’ experience. I applaud the red-haired panelist who spoke first for speaking up with common sense and a feminist viewpoint.
Historian212 my feelings exactly! And I agree that the red hair panelist (a pity I didn’t catch her name) was the most coherent and closest to my views.
Thank you for this discussion.
"...it's usually that men tell women who they are, and have been doing so since the beginning of recorded history.
and am putting the transmen who identify as women shouting at me that transwomen are women, into the category of men who continue the tradition of telling women who they are..."
"...men have attributed to themselves the prototype of what it means to be human".
Heather Brunskell Evans.
👏🏻💕
And another thing: how depressing it is to hear English people repeating the latest American claptrap: that 'the native American culture has always had two-spirit people.' In the first place, there are still some 500 different native American tribes, with a correspondingly large range of cultural practices, and in the second place, the term 'two-spirit' was invented in 1990 and introduced at a conference of activists. The only North American language that has this term is Ojibwa, and that is only because it was translated from English at this same conference. The main reason for introducing a new term is because there was an older term, berdache (which comes from Arabic via colonial French) meaning catamite, the passive partner in sodomy. So 'two-spirit' is much more politically correct. It has no basis in Native American culture. White Americans know practically nothing about the people whose lands they stole, and this nonsensical and false idea has therefore been able to spread on the basis of no evidence.
That's not tally true, there are some great books out there.
@@hllyenaylleth9576 Congratulations for using the expression 'tally true' to demonstrate your superior education.
@@christopherlord3441 English, Brit* Anyway, there are some great books on the natives out there.
But also... One person said that, and it was not discussed any further. Presumably it wasn't felt to be very relevant or interesting. Which is why free debate is so useful. Someone says something irrelevant or incorrect and everyone else just carries on and ignores it!
@@christopherlord3441 What is the factual standing on the people of both genders or representing the 'opposite' gender in the Native American tribes? (North or/and South.)
@ 18:34 “we’re living in a society in the grip of an epidemic narcissism” ... if that ain’t the truth Mz. Kathy
Yes! And it's no coincidence that there is a huge rise in teenage trans when adolescence is the height of narcissism.
So, is womanhood an idea? Last time I looked for my little pink shoes, I could not find them. My mother said, pink shoes? You never had them. We couldn't afford them. So why am I a woman, mum? Because I love you, that's why. Now I am a mother, I understand.
I have not heard such well-spoken and accurate insights on this matter in years.
it's mostly deconstructionist twaddle.
When more then 90% of the country don't believe in God. Now we don't know what a woman is.????. A woman can have babies.
this panel needs a be reconvened today. Much needed voices.
I'm a woman...born a woman...but I don't like dresses or make up...i was strong and smart....i had children and worked...i fought my way in the world...if someone laid their hands on me I kicked there ass... period...i never hit anyone unless they hit me first...man or woman...some woman aren't dainty or feminine...those of us who aren't good looking know how to fend for themselves cause men don't want us...in the first place...so...this is a problem for the dainty daisys...
Suzie Wheeler just wondering Suzie, if men don’t want you, what do you have to defend yourself from ? How’d you get kids? Someone must’ve gotten you pregnant ! You too hard on yourself! And who the hell says you or anyone else aren’t good looking ? To each their own!
@@tinam8065some men like to put strong women in their place. They use rape as a threat and as a tool to make strong women feel small and powerless.
I'd say the 80/20 rule persists here. 20% of men are terrifying to be around when they don't think you're pretty and they think you are stepping beyond your role.
The other vast majority of men are quite nice and are willing to look past looks to personality to have families with these strong women.
Super heterosexual cis male here ✋😎
Nobody has devalued motherhood. You only have to be a woman without children to know that. What has happened in my view is women realise how serious motherhood is and how financially burdening it is and how stressful society is for mothers esp single mothers. Society does not support familys. Men often leave. To assume women need to be mothers is insulting to those of us choosing not to be mothers. Its now very clear it is a very difficult thing to get right when children mental health is the worst its ever been. And judgement always falls on mum. This woman saying we need to have children ,we don't. We are over populated soon to have unhabital parts of the world. She is insulting single women who are childless through choice and other reasons. We all know women bond though motherhood and often women are made to feel less or left out who don't have children. Its total nonsense that mother isn't still on a pedestal.
I try to be open to all sides. However, when the subject of women being able to bear children and be mothers came up I felt a bit angry. Even this is a womanly experience…. The pain of being unable to give birth, as a person borne a woman. Surely this can’t be compared to a transgender woman being unable to give birth. A man isn’t meant to give birth, biologically or socially. As a woman who wants to be a mother and is unable, due to medical or other reasons, this is incredibly painful on all levels. No! Men cannot take this away from women and compare it with their inability to give birth, on either biological or social levels.
Fantastic point-you are so right.
Are we still able to have these discussions, now in 2023? It seems like it's always shut down by screaming people these days.
Not a man
thank you!
Thank you to those who stand up for fair and equal rights for girls and women- Those like J.K Rowling, Riley Gaines, Martina Navratilova, Kelley-Jay Keen A.K.A. Posey Parker, Helen Joyce Matt Walsh and many, many others absolute HEROES!!! Thank you for fighting to preserve rights for little girls and women, who absolutely deserve fair and equal and protected.
Talk about a caricature of Feminism. The entire basis of Feminism was about choice and bodily autonomy, they could decide to have babies or not, women continued to have babies and careers and some decided not to, that's normalised in our societies today, that was the point. Feminists also rejected stereotypes against women and gendered roles, transgenderism reinforces those stereotypes again, it's really back to patricharcy ideals, quite the opposite of Feminism
I think you can't superimpose a new term onto an old identity, or a new gender onto an original gender. I think we need to add new categories of their own. This is what's happening--people are starting to feel different than they think a female or male 'should' feel, so they want to call themselves the other gender. But they aren't. They're transgendered. You can feel it in people, even those who look so much like a stereotypical model of the opposite gender. I don't know everything, but I have met some transgendered people. I wish them well. The trans-women I've met are different.
there are too many questions that need to be answered regarding transgenerism
how can a man state they feel like a women, when they dont know what being a women feels like..
thats like me saying i feel like a horse.. I dont know what a horse feels like. how can i claim that.. Its annoying.
i have no problem with anyone who wants to call themselves a woman, or whatever, but i draw the line when you force that ideology onto me,. Ie, males in female changing rooms, or sports, or anything of that nature.
"There is only science, and science doesn't care about your feelings."
A woman said about a mental health issue happening in the Uk.People been confused and it resulting in depression and self harm.Also what is causing mental health issues,depression and self harm even suicide in the Uk is body image issues.Girls and women constantly competing with ;comparing with and trying to live up to photo shopped and airbrushed highly edited photo's(created on a screen images) in women's magazine"s,men's magazines,advertising,porn magazines/films and newspapers in fact the whole spectrum of anything that is going out into a published product.
Ella Whelan is a good Irish Woman in my world 😍
real women will always determine what it is to be a woman. your fantasy is not my reality and i'm certainly not going to let you force your reality on mine. signed.. a woman that gave birth to a beautiful son.
Great commentary at the 52:55 min mark by this speaker. (With the added importance of not ignoring the statistics on increased saftey risks and privacy violations faced by women and children in mixed sex spaces where people are more vulnerable due to being undressed)
Gender is just as easily recognized as Age and as Ethnicity/Skin color. It's not how someone VIEWS it.
The Nigerian chick who didn't understand the apparatus comment makes me headdesk so hard.
Even women that can't have babies are still women, but they have the organs for it. I really don't get what's so special about being a female anyway. When I see people wanting to transition into one, it just reminds me of how gruesome and torturous my faulty period is, and how they just see the positives to being a chick.
I get feminine stuff is nice to like (stereotypically speaking; cute things, soft things, things that smell sweet-), but being actual factual woman? It really does narrow down to the genitals. It's not about disrespect - it's just what it is. To take offense to someone saying "you've got all the spects of a baby-carrier, so you're a girl" is like taking offense to being a mammal because you can't lay eggs. There's nothing special, there is an obvious difference between the two, and the ones in the centerline typically have to default to one or the other, because that other set of genitals (note; there are only two possible genitals to have, and being in-between isn't really healthy in the long run), if it tried to grow separately, would turn cancerous. That's not an identity you *want*.
It's along the lines of having pride in being a depressive fuck.
God.
I hate being a human, let alone a female. Why do I even watch this shit.
Lol. I love your last paragraph 🙂
Why is there even a discussion. There are natural Male and females. Then people who change there physical appearance.
half year after the debate. a men dressed as women demand his balls wax by the women.
Be ready for scientific establishments to argue in favor of self-ID, and the activists to have that authority on their side. Don't falter. Walk towards that fire.
Society needs to set up different spaces, including schools, teachers, etc for these trans people. The trans community needs to fund their own agendas, not infringe on women and children. Enough is Enough should be the new T-shirts!
'Society needs to set up different spaces'
they used to be called asylums.
The woman at 53:00 is spot on. I would've loved to hear from her more.
So agreed!!! "Society needs fixing"
It's sad that we've come to the point of debating what a woman is smh
this was excellent. Hats off to all panelists.
Agency of ourselves has been taken away.
Trans people being given agency doesn’t take away yours.
Wow, 81 minutes of insanity.
What's next?
The body and its sex at birth is not a construct
It's okay to pretend. We can choose to go along with the person's pretense, or not. You are what you are born : either male, female, or intersex. Societies restrictions by disapproval if a person does not conform to expectations for the gender in which he or she was born causes the problem. It's crazy to think people don't accept other people's freedom to wear the clothing they want ,speak in the way they want, and follow their interests. It's time we gave men the same freedom women have had for a long time ,in this way. And most of these women are not pretending to be men. A man could do the same " non traditional" behavior and not be pretending to be a woman.
What is a man anyway? Oh, that's right, we never bother with that side of the debate much do we.
you sure could there are transgender men too -- and you could certainly have a fine discussion about that not too unlike this one.
@@watcherwlc53 But we don't cause it's only men who are entitled to question what is a real woman but we all apparently don't question what a man is in the trans debate cause then the ones not wearing dresses might get offended. But we don't care about offending biological women.
I don’t think woman are trying to tell you that you are not a man !
@@tinam8065 Of course, this is all about the right to express what men think and feel about women.
Richard Albert Henderson so I hear all the time of girls dominating boys sports in high school and taking away their scholarships , those poor boys and all I ever hear is why can’t we as woman just go into the men’s locker rooms and bathrooms cause we want to and we claim to be men . I don’t know why Posie Parker didn’t include the word man and it’s definition on that billboard . You know why ? Because men pretending to be woman are the ones who are offended and the reason we have to deal with all this bullshit ! Shit the f up if you feel like a woman and quit acting like a man .
Interesting, I see lots of debate about what a woman is, but none about what a man is. Why is the status of women so tenable? Woman: adult female. If you have xy chromosomes, you are a man. Period. Saying you're a woman doesn't make you one any more than my saying that I'm a cat, makes me one. Keep men out of women's spaces, period. Women need to feel safe. The so-called rights of a tiny minority doesn't trump the rights and comfort of 51% of the population.
Feminism - particularly university feminism - has spawned all this largely by promoting the word 'gender'. The total success of women's studies departments and programmes led enthusiastic feminists to attempt to widen the net to impose their ideas on men too. There were a few 'men's studies' courses but the preferred method was to start calling women's studies 'gender studies', but without any coherent idea of what the word 'gender' might mean. Well now we know: start using ideological language which can mean whatever you want it to mean, and the result is that feminist/women's studies/gender studies institutions are being steadily taken over by men pretending to have some appropriate kind of gender status. But the effects on society at large are much worse than on feminism itself.
@M. E The main work that reintroduced the term 'gender' as feminist psychobabble was Judith Butler's 'Gender Trouble'. You may feel that she is anti-feminist but that is an idiosyncratic position to take.
The clue is in the name. Woman; Wo-man; Womb-man; A member of mankind with a womb (uterus). It might not be what we want the word 'woman' to mean, but it is what it means, authentically and originally*. If we want the word 'woman' to mean something else, we should choose another word to avoid confusion, as 'woman' already has a functional and sensible common meaning.
(Edit - Seems I was incorrect to use the words "authentically and originally" here unless you speak Breton, but I stand by my definition nonetheless)
@M. E If it was all about celebrating and acknowledging difference and diversity, then the way forwards should entail individualism, alternativism, pluralism, and eclecticism, and yet these concepts and values are regarded as vices by many who champion such diversity narratives. Groups are made of individuals; individuals are not made of groups.
Except thats not what it meant.
late Old English wimman, wiman (plural wimmen), literally "woman-man," alteration of wifman (plural wifmen) "woman, female servant" (8c.), a compound of wif "woman" (see wife) + man "human being" (in Old English used in reference to both sexes; see man (n.)). Compare Dutch vrouwmens "wife," literally "woman-man."
@@moif_velocita Thanks for the correction; I guess that just sounded like it made sense but was not the reality of things. I still think my definition is sound enough for the purpose, despite getting my wires crossed on the origins of the word.
Edit - Seems the word "wife" comes from the German word for 'woman', so the etymology here is actually self-referential and therefore not really very useful towards deriving the definition of the word in question.
@@LaurentumEclectic It gets more bizarre the further back you go. All words to describe women are apparently variations of the concept of wife. Even the word Queen. Women have never been afforded their own individual identity seperated from men. It makes you think.
Descendants of 'Kvinde' (Germanic word for woman)
Proto-West Germanic: *kwāni
Old English: cwēn, cwǣn, cwœ̄n
Middle English: quene, qwene, cwene, queene, quen, qween, qweene, queyne, qwenne, qwhene, kuene, quiene, queen
English: queen (see there for further descendants)
Scots: queen, wheen
Old Saxon: quān
Old Norse: kvæn, kván
Icelandic: kván, kvon, kvæn
Norwegian: kvån (dialectal)
Westrobothnian: kon
Old Swedish: -qvæn in broþorqvæn, sonaqvæn
@@moif_velocita Interesting stuff. Etymology is not something I've spent any real time studying (until now I guess), but I've possessed an increasing interest in what words can mean over the decades, though it is only an amateur interest and I mostly just have my own thoughts and ideas to work with. I'm not usually a big believer in believing things; for me, it's maybes all the way down. My original comment exemplifies why I try to avoid beliefs and favor thoughts and ideas; beliefs are a trap; they can make sense to us and still be false or inaccurate.
I think I can see where you are coming from and what you are getting at here, but I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that women have never been afforded their own individual identity separate from men, as I imagine that whatever a given word for woman is can apply to a woman who does not possess the exact character or quality of which the word is derivative of, i.e. a woman need not be a 'queen' or a 'wife' to be considered a 'woman', and what any word for 'woman' is attempting to describe is something distinct but nonetheless related to what any word for 'man' is meant to mean (and vice versa). I'd also suggest that historically a 'wife' would be necessarily (or at least highly typically) a 'woman' and that the development of a womb may well have been important to general conceptions of what a 'wife' could be understood to be, given that a large part of the point of marriage is (or at least was) about a man and a woman producing offspring together. These points aside, I'm not sure if linguistic origins can illustrate how a subject is more generally identified anyway; we don't need to know where a label comes from to be able to attach it to something. I can think of many clear examples of women being regarded as separate from men, including the discussion we are having now and the video we are commenting on.
I can accept that women would benefit from an increased collective appreciation of their distinct identity, both on the group and individual levels, though I think that could be said for human beings in general, as it often seems that most people don't understand themselves or anyone else very well at all. I think the idea of there being several kinds of human identity (e.g. personal/internal, social/external, technical, aesthetic, familial, local, historic, etc.) is relevant to the discussion here as well, as it seems apparent that men and women are considered unique on multiple identity axes.
before I waste an hour and a half of my life, do they ever define what a woman is?
No they don't. It's an interesting discussion though.
I am attracted to women, and as a 'normal' sort of guy, it is this very important personal reality that defines a woman for me. The trans woman near the end i also found to be quite attractive, but feelings for her cannot be deep and meaningful because of the consummation aspect of things. Women can be dear friends, not subconsciously like a mother figure or sister figure, but as caring and achieving ones like women on the panel. It is not a stereotype that i aspire towards, it is an authentic emotion of respect and admiration way beyond a simple hope for intimacy or comfort or 'barefoot and pregnant' in my den...( yet, respectfully to those who cannot conceive, i feel that men who desire women define a part of their existence thru the attainment of a safe family home with children of their own). Nobody wants to be totally alone, of course, and my heart goes out to those in society who become marginalized based on appearances and who may not find a group of similar minded- and looking- friends.
It's interesting how you frame women in terms of your attraction to them. And THIS is why we don't want to hear from men about what or who we are, we know what and who we are. You don't need to tell us, we don't want your opinion. And we certainly don't want the opinion of men claiming to be one of us.