Yep, you can straight up buy sodium ion batteries now. I just bought a set of twelve 32140 cells to build the worlds first sodium ion powered electric skateboard. Can't wait to publish that video!
AFAIK, at this point sodium batteries can do only a few thousand recharge cycles, compared to 3-5k by LFP. But they are expected to overtake LFP in this too, and reach 8-10k towards the 2030s (as per The Limiting Factor ).
They haven't gotten rid of the lithium, that still exists within the same battery structure, which means your battery will still spontaneously combust whenever, so there's really no issue that they've solved.
@@5226-p1eWhat are you talking about? Lithium and Sodium ion both use phosphorus. Sodium is replacing the lithium in these batteries as the alkaline metal.
@@gljames24 not quite, they have admitted that they will still be using the lithium because it offers more recharge cycles than the sodium offers, which means they will still be running into these issues of these fires, they say it will happen less than before but the issue still exists. did they really solve anything in the end? sodium can also be the catalyst in these fires and make them burn stronger, so it's just a double whammy of danger at the end of the day. i mean have you ever taken sodium to a fire, it gets stronger and burns faster, so again did they really fix anything moving to sodium? i would personally argue they made it possibly worse than before with this idea in mind, i mean you might as well use hydrogen at that point, it's roughly the same outcome, but i suppose the hydrogen burns cleaner as it's not a chemical, so it's not like it's going to be burning toxins in the air like a EV battery chemical structure is.
Solid-state sodium ion batteries are safer than Li-ion batteries because they are non-flammable and can operate effectively across a wide range of temperatures
@@davidpenlington2753 yeah but they have already admitted to putting the lithium in these sodium batteries, and the reason for that was to allow more recharge cycles, but the main issue still persists simply because of the lithium being used in these sodium batteries, the issues with the lithium still being present keeps the spontaneous combusting issue that they had before, so did they really solve anything? i don't think so.
@@5226-p1e Lithium iron phosphate batteries are unlikely to catch fire, but if they do can be extinguished with common fire extinguishers. They can withstand the lowest and highest temperatures of all rechargeable batteries. Even if they are accidentally punctured, drilled, crushed or overcharged the likelihood of them Catching Fire is small, and there is zero chance of a thermal runaway fire like lithium ion batteries.
Just so you know they're still lithium in these batteries, it was their only way of maintaining the charge cycles so that it would have more charge cycles, but the problem with lithium is that it's spontaneously combusts in certain situations more often than not when it comes to EV vehicles, so at the end of the day what do they really fix? They just put it in another type of battery but it's still got the spontaneously combusting element with inside of it it still has the same issues, as opposed the grass is greener slightly but, not by much.
Saying that the ease of recycling is huge is a massive understatement. Over 90% of lead acid batteries in the US are recycled, because the recycling process is so simple and cheap. If sodium ion becomes the standard for stationary battery storage, I could see Sodium ion reaching that same recycling rate
@@mj8495 my point is not to use lead acid, my point is that if the recycling technology is cheap and simple, such as with lead acid batteries, then the recycling rates for something like sodium ion batteries would be very high
You explained that in a way even people like me can understand. Understanding all the different battery technologies can get a bit confusing so it's nice to watch a vid that explains it really well...nice one.
Wow! I was keeping track of this about a year ago, but it looked to me like that energy density problem wasn't getting solved anytime soon, so I wrote it off as a pipe-dream. It didn't occur to me that if you make the vehicals small enough, there must be a sweet spot in there somewhere. Like the three-wheeler featered in your end credits. The smaller you make it, the cheaper it is to just replace the battery when it runs out.
In 2009 I met GE engineers and they perfected a sodium based battery in use with locomotives for many years. They were trying to reduce the charge ratio for standby applications such as UPS systems. The major advantage was no thermal runways as the battery would be at ambiant temperature if in contact with the outside environment. This was game changing for data center applications but recharge time being so bad compared to VRLA or Lithium based chemistry where typically the recharge ration is 10 to 1 the discharge ratio. This is definitely game changer in the perception that EV batteries burn more than ICE vehicles. We all know that insurance stats point to ICE engine fires as being the #1 fire hasard on wheels. The other game changing + is price. The negative side are longevity about 4-5 less than Lithium and watt ratio to kG being being 2-3 lower.
Thanks for another great video Steve. That was very informative. Sodium-ion looks promising. It sounds like the battery chemistry is safer and more temperature tolerant than lithium-ion. That might be a reasonable trade off for the lower power density.
Yes, they should be perfect for cheap city cars/budget normal cars as soon as they reach a few thousand recharge cycles without degrading much. And they are expected to overtake lithium batteries in recharge cycles later in the decade- then they will become ideal for heavy duty home batteries.
Aptera's $25,000 price for the 250 mile range. If there's a long lasting Na battery providing 200 mile range for $15-18k, Aptera will be extremely competitive worldwide, and with a dramatically lower carbon footprint with almost no metal outside of the powertrain, this is a significant design advantage as people value this issue more
... or imagine a 300 mile range on a slightly heavier Aptera at a lower price. That is the 400 mile one with Lithium swapped for Sodium and the price dropped because sodium batteries are $15/kwh vs $140/kwh for Lithium.
metal... easily recycled. left to its own devices it even simply corrodes and returns whence it comes. carbon fibre composites... where do the chemicals for the adhesives come from? how do you reclaim those materials? left in the dirt for ten thousand years, what state will that carbon fibre composite be in? how about the stamped plastics? will they break down and return to their natural state after a few thousand years? where do the plastics come from? how about the machines that make all this stuff? where do they come from? where will they go? what do they run on? what powers them? not big on critical thinking or looking beyond the walls of your limited box, are you? its called "brainwashing".
Very interesting. Before I retired we were testing.LICERION 490Wh/kg batteries in EV school buses and semi-power trains in the southwest and midwest. The Tuscon facility completed its plant expansion but no mass-produced output of their hybrid solid-state battery to date.
If they can get the cycle life high enough, they would be perfect for domestic power storage linked to solar arrays. Energy density would not be a big issue in this application
Great video. Wasn't aware the commercialization of Sodium Ion Batteries had started now and it was so suitable for cold environments. I live in Norway, so as novel battery chemistries that are more cold resistant come out, I hope "Nordic Edition" battery packs becomes a norm for cold countries. There's another interesting a bit farther out battery you might be interested in in relation to the Aptera being made by SES AI. It's a Lithium Metal hybrid solid-liquid battery that also has higher cold resistance than the widely used chemistries, and has a very high density. It is being commercialized in 2024 for EVTOLs with batteries for cars as the next step after that. Like EVTOLs, as a very low weight vehicle that is highly sensitive to weight for reaching the desired range and performance, Aptera is probably well served to be a semi-early adopter of high density chemistries, and it would be absolutely great if my 2026 Aptera (probably too far down priority to list to get one before then) didn't lose a massive chunk of range in the winter.
Ditto for your cousins in Canada! We need winter-friendly batteries to run our EV's particularly if Project Arrow gets funding and becomes an actual commercial product...
I wonder if it will make sense for companies to adopt hybrid pack architectures where they have some portion of the packs using chemistries like sodium to allow for "cold start" performance that is used to precondition the lithium chemistry batteries,. Tesla already does a great job of doing the right thing to get the batteries up to a reasonable temperature when needed (for charging especially) but having another chemistry as the "jump starter" for that process maybe makes sense?
Thanks, Steve, for sharing this! We in colder Europe regions pumping for new battery chemistries and better cold climate performance. Na+ is one of these and suggested having the best carbon footprint. Such success messages lets raise hopes. The world expected to see a JAC E10X with this HiNa cells first. Thus, I was delighted to see a face lift of Yiwei 3 derivate now. And for better distinction to the LFP Versions of the E10X! The data tells us, it’s still the same platform VW was teased since half a year. Spec 120 Wh/kg energy density (single cell 140 Wh/kg) 3C to 4C charging (10% - 80% in 20 minutes) Remarkable point here, the honeycomb pack design like Aptera specs but contrary to CTNS inline C-FMS packs indroductions and for saving space. This is SIB Version 1.0, we will see any new version every year and with improved performance. The prediction 160 Wh/kg for end 2024 become truth, thus Aptera LR-Versions will have enough space for bigger Na+ packs providing up to 500mls range in the unique Aptera 21120 format. The reason for CTNS choice at my guess, Aptera has it in own hands, needs only to buy cells from market. Hopefully the best ones and on purpose for now and beeing future proof.
It seems that the Na-ion battery will be an excellent choice for stationary applications such as backup power in the home and utility-scale grid storage. Recycle or re-purpose the LiFePO4 batteries out of the power plants and in to portable applications.
I think sodium will be the 2nd best battery for cars but good enough at about 1/10th the price. In many cases this means a longer range car is within the budget of the purchaser.
Thanks Steve. I have been eagerly watching the progress and development of sodium ion batteries over the last few years. They always promised lower cost and more easily sourced materials, but since battery manufacturers have been able to scale volume manufacturing, increase longevity, and increase energy density, their future for stationary storage and EVs is looking very good lately. Even though I don't see Aptera using sodium ion batteries initially, because they have very high range, efficiency and performance goals to achieve. I am hoping that Aptera can leverage their connection with Chery automotive, and get sodium ion batteries for the 250 mile Aptera in 2025-26. And in the same way that Aptera's superior efficiency can make solar power usable, it can also potentially utilize lower energy dense batteries like sodium ion and still have ample range, using cleaner and cheaper battery technology.
I've been in the battery industry for some time now and I have yet to see a sodium Ion battery with a reasonable life cycle. This has been the achilles heel of sodium Ion batteries. They have many great qualities but they have an incredibly short lifetime.
This is what will keep the US manufacturers from adopting any new battery. They have to warranty the battery for something like 8 years or 100,000 miles, and they are not going to use them in production vehicles until they have run them in test fleets for at least 4-5 years.
@@shenmisheshou7002you don’t have to run it for 4 or 5 years man 😂 . They can keep driving em for up to 100000 miles or so in a year and test em that way 🤷🏻♂️.
Sodium and LFP are gravitationally in the same ballpark for wh/kg and given the safety / cooling the weight disadvantage isnt as big as it looks on paper. What is an issue is the volumetric density which is about 40% of NCA/NCM chemistries. LFP shares this issue but not to the same extreme. With the ~78 liters of batteries pack space in the LE the latest CATL sodium batteries could only store 20kwh which would result in ~220 miles of range; viable but less than ideal. Potentially when Aptera makes the larger belly pan for the 600/1000 mile version they could use sodium or LFP and have good ranges. Given the amazing volumetric density expectations the 1000 mile pack with 21120 cells in the same module layout the pack will only be 133 liters which is enough for ~360 miles of range with sodium ion or ~460 with LFP.
at some point they wanted a diesel range extender , honda insight is gasoline version of that but in efficiency it doesnt seem much better than prius , granted its not as aerodynamic and its wider car but its a bit lower too. is think electric assited turbo on a prius sort of thing would be best for longveity of the emission lowering system long term. ...................for people who want more instant torque and dont trust the narrative of environmental issues(pretty much everyone) toyota said theyll have a normal first gear before the cvt is used, it maybe not engaged when user doesnt demand instant torque im not sure. not sure if they already have that in new prius
@@andrewmclean1239 Chris Anthony discussed in interviews. The larger battery options will be the exact same module layout with taller cells (2190 and 21120). I struggle to see how this will result in the needed range but I've also reached out to Chris M to confirm. They clearly have some high hopes for those taller cells to improve energy density.
It's not the ideal technology for vehicles, yes. But it'll be great for grid storage, and replacing the venerable SLA in all sorts of backup power applications. SLAs are only good for about three years.
Probably yes for back-up batteries (do not have their self discharge speed data). Hopefully their production gets ramped up fast, even though the price of lithium is currently -80% down from year 2022 levels, which might slow down the transition.
The best application of sodium-ion batteries is for solar panels and other commercial energy storage applications where battery weight and density are not a huge concern. I work in the power distribution sector and so many control systems that monitor and protect utility power distribution across the world run on DC power banks using 48V to 125V DC and they still use old lead acid batteries that have a terrible cycle life and are highly toxic to manufacture and dispose of. Some limited applications use LFP batteries and a few other chemistries now, but there aren't very many options that are commercially available yet and the high upfront cost prevents a lot of companies from switching over. If these sodium-ion batteries can be manufactured cheaper than lithium-ion ones for the same energy output and the same cycle life, they might finally kill off the use of lead acid batteries for these applications. Elimination of fire risk, low toxicity, and being able to fully discharge and operate below -20C make them ideal for low voltage battery backup systems and high-voltage energy storage systems in isolated areas.
I call BS. The most important place for sodium ion batteries is in domestic appliances such as power tools and electric assist pedal bicycles. These are the places where a failure during charging or storage is likely to kill or destroy
I am very excited also..... I just hope I live long enough to see Sodium/Ion Batteries in the market. I live full time in an RV and I'm designing/building a Solar Power System to completely handle all the 30 amp Power requirements. I do not want to spend $900.00 on each Lith/Ion battery....! =)
Could see natrons batteries even as is going into battery locomotives and cargo ships. But would need some really really big charging infrastructure. We are talking about heavy duty movable bus bars here.
Sodium Ion batteries can work well for things like Power Walls and grid storage where weight and energy density don’t matter as much. As they evolve and get better they can move into cars. What is the charger / discharge efficiency compared to Lithium ion?
You don’t get 100% efficiency in the Charge / Discharge cycle. What is the efficiency of the different battery types? What percentage of the electrons you push at the battery can you get back out after resistance, heat loss and more?
A laudable effort! Li Ion rates around 300W hour per kg. They have a little ways to go. The future is electric and batteries are the prime energy storage. So, the beauty is a sane competion, racing for greater energy density, charging speed, and less bulk and weight. We used to be told in the "news" that Li Ion were catching fire from time to time, and were toxic, as well as being difficult to recycle. Technologies change fast, so as of recent, Elon Musk assured us Lithium is the 33rd most abundant element. Refining it to high-grade purity is still tedious. He eliminated cadmium, so that's that. .Then, I haven't heard of igniting Li Ion in years (yeah, we must respect 10 - 15% of capacity in the charging mode - obvious no?). And the number of recycling companies, right now, recycling Lithium are growing (find this for yourself on youtube). Adding all this together = the problem we tried to solve, a decade or so ago, that was a catalyst to a quest for new tech, has been overcome, rendering the current replacement of Li Ion batteries, rather unnecessary. Your channel is much appreciated. Cheers!
Tesla Gigafactory Berlin took 3 years to build when the German promised Tesla it would take just 1 year. Tesla Gigafactory Shanghai completed in 11 months when the Chinese promised Tesla it would need 1 year. Today Berlin's productivity is still 50% of Shanghai's and stagnated there. See the differences in labor qualities?
@@blackknight4996maybe not quality, but in productivity! Western people have become lazy, it is just that. That is why western car manufacturers are in teouble compare to Chinese ones.
For city cars, a 30kwh battery is probably fine if people are okay charging it every few days. And if the cost is low, then that's another incentive to buy them.
I hope it becomes a norm here in EU to have slow charging for every parking spot at work. Should cost very little to implement (slow charging= cheap thin cables), and the cars are standing there all day anyway. Even better, if electricity is generated by building a solar 'roof' over the parking lot.
Thank you as always for the useful videos! I'm not knowledgeable about batteries, but assuming the Na batteries take up the same volume and weight as Aptera's Na-Mn-Co batteries, then it seems like using the 1000-mile range model but with Na batteries would be a good option for those of us who were wanting the lower range option anyway. 200 W h per kg / 275 W h per kg = 73%. That would equate to 730 miles of range, yes? Or am I approaching this incorrectly? EDIT: To clarify, by "1000 range model" I do not mean getting 1000-miles of range with an Na battery. What I mean is to use the layout of the current 1000-mile battery case, and replace them with Na batteries. So, less miles, but perhaps enough to satisfy those of us who wanted, say, the 600-mile option but now with the Na battery tech.
The Sodium (NA) batteries are physically larger and heavier, so it would not be possible to get longer ranges in the physical space and cargo carrying limits of the Aptera package. The Sodium battery would likely also be iron phosphate since it would waste the cost savings to pair it with Nickel (Ni), Manganese, or Cobalt. Sodium Iron Phosphate would be similar to Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) just cheaper with nearly the same range, but larger and heavier
No you are not. The problem becomes one of mass and volume. To get 1000 miles of range, you may need 250kWh of battery. At 200Wh/kg, you will need 750Kg of battery + container + cooling system + BMS, ie 900-1000Kg in dead mass. That mass and the volume (dont have the data to determine the numbers) will be too much for such a small car.
One big reason why sodium ion batteries are cheaper is due to shipping weight. Salt mines are also found in US friendly countries too which means that the US will probably be keen on sodium
What needs to be different between lithium versus sodium cars besides the battery? Do they put out different voltages? Do they have different power/volume or weight ratios?
Winnebago had a Sodium battery in a concept Class A bus 5-6 years ago with a 150 mile range. In a 33-38 foot vehicle the extra weight was not an issue and they were touting the fact that it could not catch fire. I think they were aiming it at a market of mobile libraries and mobile command centers for counties, or cities rather than the interstate RV crowd, but that was before the advent of LFP batteries which also don’t catch fire. Many RV’s have been adopting LFP as house batteries since they are small and light and can eliminate the need for a generator. I think Sodium batteries would be ideal for neighborhood vehicles if we could successfully adopt them for shuttling kids to school and activities and errands rather than make 4 mile runs in the XL SUV that costs $70k. You could do the same run in a Squad for $7k and save the SUV for weekend camping trips. Short solo trips would be better on a bike, but taking the herd to school and soccer games would be for a neighborhood vehicle
Fine for a bus since the batteries are comparatively huge (2.5x bigger) compared to NCM/NCA chemistries. Aptera could make it work given the R&D budget because the base design is just that efficient but 360 miles with sodium is a best case and needs the larger belly pan. As a new product and limited to a handful of chinese manufacturers they are not easy to source.
@@theairstig9164 they are less volatile in general and some designs like the byd blade functionally won't ignite when punctured (no known cases of blade fires and nail test video). Statistically any ev fire is very rare and lfp drops the odds by another order of magnatude or more.
So, in Europe VW have small city EV vehicles across the VW/SEAT/Skoda brands - basically the VW Up! and VW Polo. The Yiwei 3 could easily be brought across to fit below the proposed iD.2 - it already looks similar to the VW Up! so could easily wear a VW Group badge. VW's European pricing is daft, bordering on gouging, compared to US and China. The iD.3 in China sells for 40% of the EU price, the LWB Buzz is about $20k cheaper in the US than simply converting the European price. That's RRP, BTW, so hopefully negates all the "yeah, but taxes" arguments. Even so, if the Chinese prices for both are similar and the "charge 2.5x as much for the same car in EU" model is used, then that $8k becomes €20k, which would slot in comfortably under the last proposed price for the iD.2 that I can recall. Lots of assumptions and maybes in all that, of course!
Just a heads up that there is a new 2D material similar to Graphene but with even more manipulative configurative opportunities that shows great promise for many new uses, including for cheaper and more powerful Batteries where Graphene is just not suitable, yeah I forget what they called it, but what's great about the new material is it's even stronger than graphene and the matrix's that the material can be configure into seems perfect for batteries that could use a substitute for the rare and or dangerous materials that need to be negated.
The most important reason we listened to your podcast ab7 Lithium Ion Batteries was to find out what the Milage might be on these 1st Hybrid Batteries Mileage Range...?
You can only run L-ion down to 20% so the range would be S-ion ~120-160wh to L-ion 120-220. And if you go by the 2nd gen S-ion it's 160-180. So it is more of an apples to apples comparison than it would look like on paper.
They just made a huge Lithium discovery in California. As this news gets out expect Lithium prices to drop. This means an Aptera's price may decrease. Elsewhere I have seen estimates that say the price per battery will be nearly 10 times less. These are early days. We can expect both prices to fall and sodium to fall further.
Reliance Industries has US $120 billion revenue (2023), has market cap of $208 billion (2023). One of their plants is the largest crude refiner in the world. They are heavy into Chemical and IT. What am trying to say is once they are into mfg of sodium ion, it will be substantial supply capacity added. They are know to go huge.
Reliance is doing a stellar job of not just batteries but also Green Hydrogen. With these two and Adani securing PV solar modules from end to end, we can achieve energy independence in India. That is not just good for the environment and climate change, it is extremely important from a security point of view for India, given the kind of nonsense that is plaguing global maritime trade: stuff like the Houthis blowing up ships in the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden, etc. While oil is important, we need to move away from it asap. I wonder why the foreign and domestic discourse surrounding Modi is singling out Modi-Ambani and Adani trio for their attack. It is as if they want to scuttle this entire effort of India transitioning away from fossil fuels and into green tech and thereby gaining energy independence.
The cost of the lithium in a typical EV battery is about $100. So changing to sodium would save about $90. That’s a trivial amount. If sodium made the car last, say, half as long, then the cost to the consumer would be much more than $90.
And if the efficiency of the vehicle is 10% less then the savings of using sodium would be swallowed up by electricity costs in 2-3 years. (Plus higher carbon emissions because of greater energy use.)
But the other great value of sodium ion batteries is to simply provide a viable alternative to lithium, so that prices don't get out of control, as they did in recent years.
So $78,000 per metric ton of Lithium and you say there is only $100 worth of lithium in an EV so there is only 2.82 lbs of Lithium in the average EV???? Someone help me out here.
Actually, prices for for the average NMC cell in China are just over 70 dollars right now and 60 for LFP. We don't know about sodium costs yet but CATL predicted about 90 dollars for the first few years and BYD said it costs over twice as much for sodium ion vs LFP this year and only expect to be cheaper by 2025. The theoretical best price for sodium is around mid-40 dollars per kwh with LFP and LFMP being high 40 dollars. Not much of a difference. At current lithium prices, the lithium only makes up around 5 dollars per KWH.
I do not understand one thing. Why not use lithium for electric vehicles and sodium for home or grid storage. There should be a video about this home storage made out of sodium ion batteries and has a meager price. It seems that market competition is not yet working for these products.
Soon! I would say less than a year, but still don.t know how the charging cycle is with these. I am sure that electric scooters will get this first (safe for home charging!) and the price. Cars 2026…
-20C= -4F and this in Tulsa, OK and it got down to -15F here several times this week. So, what would the performance of a Na-ion battery-powered vehicle be like under those conditions?
Northvolt in sweden also produces sodium batteries. I don't know how far they have come but they claim they have a battery with 160 kw/kg. And work with the forest industry.
I think Steve just discovered sodium ion late. They were in development for a while and I'm pretty sure we were supposed to be getting them for a year or so. Then again there's usually delays with new tech
@@BillMitchell-lm8dg He *spelled it out.* "Kay-ay-tee-ell", rather than "See-ay-tee-ell." Hit the 2:00 link and listen for yourself. Or was he saying "Kay-tee-ell," as if to somehow combine the C and A into a single phoneme? Is this an esoteric, or internal company-specific thing? I do that when I'm having fun with element names in chemistry...but I didn't originate it. (To offer an example, silicon plus cobalt (Si + Co) becomes SiCo...or "psycho." But I'm *reaching* for that to give you the benefit of the doubt.
@@stevejordan7275 - The name of the company is "Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Limited", according to Wikipedia, "abbreviated as CATL, ... a Chinese battery manufacturer and technology company founded in 2011 that specializes in the manufacturing of lithium-ion batteries for electric vehicles and energy storage systems, as well as battery management systems."
they announced that they would use a sodium battery but it was actually sold with a LFP blade battery. BYD is building their sodium battery plant right now though.
This was interesting, but I am more interested in solid state batteries. Perhaps you could do episode on them when more info is available, someone starts producing; do comparison to sodium ion and lithium ion
I'm a little surprised he didn't mention the Swedish company Northvolt who SEEM to be gearing up for commercial scale battery production of Sodium Ion. I love the concept of the Aptera but I think they got caught in the "Great is the enemy of good" conundrum. By the time they get their car out there looks to be competition that will siphon off too much of the target market. On the other hand I would think the IP is very valuable if someone wants to buy it out. But either way, that clock is ticking and they are running out of time.
@@knowledgeisgood9645 Sweden's sodium ion batteries will become available about the same time Toyota will start producing solid state batteries which will be available tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow...... Yes, its all marketing hype.
I'm wondering if we can buy the batteries themselves at a reasonable price. I have a fiberglass body sports car I'd like to power with an electric motor. I can get an electric motor locally at a good price.
ב''ה, Reno may be the worst place to have interest in this from, but apparently there's a bunch of "crate motor" conversion shops around now including certain OEMs if they haven't given up the products. Depending on budget you could see what they've already figured out.
For personal mobility devices (e-bikes, scooters, big wheels, etc) not having thermal runaway is essential since these things are often brought into homes to recharge. Of course not having thermal runaway on any EV is a big plus as now now witness a cargo ship burning for five days off Alaska with Li-Ion packs.
Lithium will always have a couple of use cases. Glass, grease and making steel. Also lithium NCM and lithium polymer batteries have their domains. I’ll leave you to figure out what they are
It would be amazing if cars used the natron chemistry actually, if the weight was reasonable. After 10-20 years, the market would be flooded with used good batteries. You'd no longer have to worry about the most expensive part of your car failing prematurely.
A 5-yr prediction of sodium battery to 1 yr materialization is pretty dramatic. Does it means the understand of the Chinese science and tech and can ability is inadequate? Also, a linear combination of a mix of lithium and sodium batteries should give you all kind of ranges and price points, pleases share your insight on that.
Around 4:00. Lithium is one of the most common minerals on earth. The problem is the legacy process of refining lithium. Tesla is addressing this by developing a whole new process for lithium refinement.
Well 17 parts per million it's more common than platinum or gold or uranium or indium. But aluminum is 82,000 parts per million in iron is 60,000 parts per million and sodium is 30,000 parts per million. So it's not even in the same ballpark as really common minerals
@@ApteraOwnersClub No, it doesn't matter if there are more common minerals. Lithium is ubiqutous in the earth. That's just the facts. Also, you are ignoring the legacy outdated way of refining lithium which makes it a very inefficient process. Lithium is abundant across the globe. It is only the outdated legacy way of refining that limits the acess to lithium to a few countries. AGAIN, Tesla, once again, is changing the dynamics and blowing away the old way of doing things. Am I not being clear enough? Or, are you stuck in the old paradigm?
I think multiple battery types are important. Cold weather is important to some while others need max range while others want max recharging capabilities. I think eventually there will be a couple of battery types available after some trial and error. Lithium is not the enemy and will be available in high quantities at a reasonable price in the very near future.. Lithium is a very common element that we had little use for and little refining capability. Refineries are being built and very soon lithium will be very abundant and much cheaper than it is currently. I live in a cold weather area where cold weather performance will be a consideration. sodium ion looks good if they can improve longevity.
More and more as Aptera isn't in production the completion is getting better and better. I put my money down because at the time there wasn't anything close to the cost with a decent range. If some 4 passenger car has over a 400 mile range that cost less than $35,000 I'll probably cancel my order. I like the Aptera but reality is it won't have any advantage if normal passenger cars become available for the same price and same range. More and more Lithium deposits have been discovered and it's price has been dropping rapidly.
Yep, you can straight up buy sodium ion batteries now. I just bought a set of twelve 32140 cells to build the worlds first sodium ion powered electric skateboard. Can't wait to publish that video!
Price per kwh?
yes please!
That would be pretty cool to have those in an EUC, too.
@@mikemelroy1424what are the advantages?
Dude, I saw your Reddit post!
This is very good news for replacing Li ion in grid storage applications.
AFAIK, at this point sodium batteries can do only a few thousand recharge cycles, compared to 3-5k by LFP. But they are expected to overtake LFP in this too, and reach 8-10k towards the 2030s (as per The Limiting Factor ).
They haven't gotten rid of the lithium, that still exists within the same battery structure, which means your battery will still spontaneously combust whenever, so there's really no issue that they've solved.
@@5226-p1eWhat are you talking about? Lithium and Sodium ion both use phosphorus. Sodium is replacing the lithium in these batteries as the alkaline metal.
@@gljames24
not quite, they have admitted that they will still be using the lithium because it offers more recharge cycles than the sodium offers, which means they will still be running into these issues of these fires, they say it will happen less than before but the issue still exists.
did they really solve anything in the end?
sodium can also be the catalyst in these fires and make them burn stronger, so it's just a double whammy of danger at the end of the day.
i mean have you ever taken sodium to a fire, it gets stronger and burns faster, so again did they really fix anything moving to sodium?
i would personally argue they made it possibly worse than before with this idea in mind, i mean you might as well use hydrogen at that point, it's roughly the same outcome, but i suppose the hydrogen burns cleaner as it's not a chemical, so it's not like it's going to be burning toxins in the air like a EV battery chemical structure is.
it will replace Lead Acid battery, but not Lithium-ion
Definitely a good choice for home battery storage. I hope that comes to the states soon.
Won’t happen, anything from China is considered a national security concern and will be banned.
Nothing is really changed, they still spontaneously combust because of the lithium within the battery structure is still within them.
Solid-state sodium ion batteries are safer than Li-ion batteries because they are non-flammable and can operate effectively across a wide range of temperatures
@@davidpenlington2753
yeah but they have already admitted to putting the lithium in these sodium batteries, and the reason for that was to allow more recharge cycles, but the main issue still persists simply because of the lithium being used in these sodium batteries, the issues with the lithium still being present keeps the spontaneous combusting issue that they had before, so did they really solve anything?
i don't think so.
@@5226-p1e
Lithium iron phosphate batteries are unlikely to catch fire, but if they do can be extinguished with common fire extinguishers. They can withstand the lowest and highest temperatures of all rechargeable batteries. Even if they are accidentally punctured, drilled, crushed or overcharged the likelihood of them Catching Fire is small, and there is zero chance of a thermal runaway fire like lithium ion batteries.
Excellent! You covered all the questions I had about the difference between li-ion, LFP, and sodium batteries
Just so you know they're still lithium in these batteries, it was their only way of maintaining the charge cycles so that it would have more charge cycles, but the problem with lithium is that it's spontaneously combusts in certain situations more often than not when it comes to EV vehicles, so at the end of the day what do they really fix? They just put it in another type of battery but it's still got the spontaneously combusting element with inside of it it still has the same issues, as opposed the grass is greener slightly but, not by much.
Saying that the ease of recycling is huge is a massive understatement.
Over 90% of lead acid batteries in the US are recycled, because the recycling process is so simple and cheap. If sodium ion becomes the standard for stationary battery storage, I could see Sodium ion reaching that same recycling rate
Lead acid recycling wasn't simple and cheap until it was government mandated and companies had to figure out how to make it cheap.
@@gljames24 true that
Lead acid batteries are not used for EVs
@@mj8495 my point is not to use lead acid, my point is that if the recycling technology is cheap and simple, such as with lead acid batteries, then the recycling rates for something like sodium ion batteries would be very high
@@mj8495, lead acid batteries are still very common in electric bikes at least here in the Philippines.
You explained that in a way even people like me can understand. Understanding all the different battery technologies can get a bit confusing so it's nice to watch a vid that explains it really well...nice one.
Wow! I was keeping track of this about a year ago, but it looked to me like that energy density problem wasn't getting solved anytime soon, so I wrote it off as a pipe-dream. It didn't occur to me that if you make the vehicals small enough, there must be a sweet spot in there somewhere. Like the three-wheeler featered in your end credits. The smaller you make it, the cheaper it is to just replace the battery when it runs out.
In 2009 I met GE engineers and they perfected a sodium based battery in use with locomotives for many years. They were trying to reduce the charge ratio for standby applications such as UPS systems. The major advantage was no thermal runways as the battery would be at ambiant temperature if in contact with the outside environment.
This was game changing for data center applications but recharge time being so bad compared to VRLA or Lithium based chemistry where typically the recharge ration is 10 to 1 the discharge ratio. This is definitely game changer in the perception that EV batteries burn more than ICE vehicles. We all know that insurance stats point to ICE engine fires as being the #1 fire hasard on wheels. The other game changing + is price. The negative side are longevity about 4-5 less than Lithium and watt ratio to kG being being 2-3 lower.
Thanks for another great video Steve. That was very informative. Sodium-ion looks promising. It sounds like the battery chemistry is safer and more temperature tolerant than lithium-ion. That might be a reasonable trade off for the lower power density.
Yes, they should be perfect for cheap city cars/budget normal cars as soon as they reach a few thousand recharge cycles without degrading much. And they are expected to overtake lithium batteries in recharge cycles later in the decade- then they will become ideal for heavy duty home batteries.
It would mean cheaper insurance cost.
I really appreciate your understanding of battery science
Aptera's $25,000 price for the 250 mile range. If there's a long lasting Na battery providing 200 mile range for $15-18k, Aptera will be extremely competitive worldwide, and with a dramatically lower carbon footprint with almost no metal outside of the powertrain, this is a significant design advantage as people value this issue more
... or imagine a 300 mile range on a slightly heavier Aptera at a lower price. That is the 400 mile one with Lithium swapped for Sodium and the price dropped because sodium batteries are $15/kwh vs $140/kwh for Lithium.
metal... easily recycled. left to its own devices it even simply corrodes and returns whence it comes.
carbon fibre composites... where do the chemicals for the adhesives come from? how do you reclaim those materials?
left in the dirt for ten thousand years, what state will that carbon fibre composite be in?
how about the stamped plastics? will they break down and return to their natural state after a few thousand years?
where do the plastics come from?
how about the machines that make all this stuff? where do they come from? where will they go? what do they run on? what powers them?
not big on critical thinking or looking beyond the walls of your limited box, are you?
its called "brainwashing".
Lol, your elected American government is going to sanction it out of existence
A car made completely out of plastic (oil) and salt. Yay!
What a pile of junk.
@Blubb5000 Except you're also made of oil and salt, lol, what a pile of junk exactly
Very interesting. Before I retired we were testing.LICERION 490Wh/kg batteries in EV school buses and semi-power trains in the southwest and midwest. The Tuscon facility completed its plant expansion but no mass-produced output of their hybrid solid-state battery to date.
Hopefully CTNS will be able to start supplying Na-ion cells to Aptera soon. Use in e-bikes and scooters will result in less battery fires in homes.
And less concern about insurance companies raising homeowners premiums for EV ownership.🔥
If they can get the cycle life high enough, they would be perfect for domestic power storage linked to solar arrays. Energy density would not be a big issue in this application
Great video. Wasn't aware the commercialization of Sodium Ion Batteries had started now and it was so suitable for cold environments. I live in Norway, so as novel battery chemistries that are more cold resistant come out, I hope "Nordic Edition" battery packs becomes a norm for cold countries.
There's another interesting a bit farther out battery you might be interested in in relation to the Aptera being made by SES AI. It's a Lithium Metal hybrid solid-liquid battery that also has higher cold resistance than the widely used chemistries, and has a very high density. It is being commercialized in 2024 for EVTOLs with batteries for cars as the next step after that.
Like EVTOLs, as a very low weight vehicle that is highly sensitive to weight for reaching the desired range and performance, Aptera is probably well served to be a semi-early adopter of high density chemistries, and it would be absolutely great if my 2026 Aptera (probably too far down priority to list to get one before then) didn't lose a massive chunk of range in the winter.
Ditto for your cousins in Canada! We need winter-friendly batteries to run our EV's particularly if Project Arrow gets funding and becomes an actual commercial product...
I wonder if it will make sense for companies to adopt hybrid pack architectures where they have some portion of the packs using chemistries like sodium to allow for "cold start" performance that is used to precondition the lithium chemistry batteries,. Tesla already does a great job of doing the right thing to get the batteries up to a reasonable temperature when needed (for charging especially) but having another chemistry as the "jump starter" for that process maybe makes sense?
Thanks, Steve, for sharing this!
We in colder Europe regions pumping for new battery chemistries and better cold climate performance. Na+ is one of these and suggested having the best carbon footprint. Such success messages lets raise hopes.
The world expected to see a JAC E10X with this HiNa cells first. Thus, I was delighted to see a face lift of Yiwei 3 derivate now. And for better distinction to the LFP Versions of the E10X! The data tells us, it’s still the same platform VW was teased since half a year.
Spec 120 Wh/kg energy density (single cell 140 Wh/kg)
3C to 4C charging (10% - 80% in 20 minutes)
Remarkable point here, the honeycomb pack design like Aptera specs but contrary to CTNS inline C-FMS packs indroductions and for saving space.
This is SIB Version 1.0, we will see any new version every year and with improved performance. The prediction 160 Wh/kg for end 2024 become truth, thus Aptera LR-Versions will have enough space for bigger Na+ packs providing up to 500mls range in the unique Aptera 21120 format. The reason for CTNS choice at my guess, Aptera has it in own hands, needs only to buy cells from market. Hopefully the best ones and on purpose for now and beeing future proof.
Northvolt in Sweden produced commercial sodium ion sample in November 2023 with 160Wh/kg aimed at energy storage initially
don't you know that northvolt have already bankrupted recently?
It seems that the Na-ion battery will be an excellent choice for stationary applications such as backup power in the home and utility-scale grid storage. Recycle or re-purpose the LiFePO4 batteries out of the power plants and in to portable applications.
I think sodium will be the 2nd best battery for cars but good enough at about 1/10th the price. In many cases this means a longer range car is within the budget of the purchaser.
Thanks Steve. I have been eagerly watching the progress and development of sodium ion batteries over the last few years. They always promised lower cost and more easily sourced materials, but since battery manufacturers have been able to scale volume manufacturing, increase longevity, and increase energy density, their future for stationary storage and EVs is looking very good lately. Even though I don't see Aptera using sodium ion batteries initially, because they have very high range, efficiency and performance goals to achieve. I am hoping that Aptera can leverage their connection with Chery automotive, and get sodium ion batteries for the 250 mile Aptera in 2025-26. And in the same way that Aptera's superior efficiency can make solar power usable, it can also potentially utilize lower energy dense batteries like sodium ion and still have ample range, using cleaner and cheaper battery technology.
The car addict delusion., lol.
Looks like private comments, response looks like private comments, but smells like corporate BS
I should think a home battery back up system would benefit greatly from this tech. Energy density has very little effect but the cost is huge.
I've been in the battery industry for some time now and I have yet to see a sodium Ion battery with a reasonable life cycle. This has been the achilles heel of sodium Ion batteries. They have many great qualities but they have an incredibly short lifetime.
This is what will keep the US manufacturers from adopting any new battery. They have to warranty the battery for something like 8 years or 100,000 miles, and they are not going to use them in production vehicles until they have run them in test fleets for at least 4-5 years.
replaceable battery (which China is heading to) is the only solution for this problem since they're cheap and easily recycled
Environmentally makes sense, but they would have to get a lot cheaper than a 20% to 40% below Li-ion to also have a practical sense.@@duydatyds
@@shenmisheshou7002you don’t have to run it for 4 or 5 years man 😂 . They can keep driving em for up to 100000 miles or so in a year and test em that way 🤷🏻♂️.
哥们这东西理论寿命十年 但是大部分都是今年才生产的 你应该如何看到全寿命？？穿越到未来吗？😂😂
Sodium and LFP are gravitationally in the same ballpark for wh/kg and given the safety / cooling the weight disadvantage isnt as big as it looks on paper. What is an issue is the volumetric density which is about 40% of NCA/NCM chemistries. LFP shares this issue but not to the same extreme. With the ~78 liters of batteries pack space in the LE the latest CATL sodium batteries could only store 20kwh which would result in ~220 miles of range; viable but less than ideal. Potentially when Aptera makes the larger belly pan for the 600/1000 mile version they could use sodium or LFP and have good ranges. Given the amazing volumetric density expectations the 1000 mile pack with 21120 cells in the same module layout the pack will only be 133 liters which is enough for ~360 miles of range with sodium ion or ~460 with LFP.
I don’t believe Aptera is making a larger belly pan to fit the larger battery. The battery will be higher and will lose some boot/trunk space.
at some point they wanted a diesel range extender , honda insight is gasoline version of that but in efficiency it doesnt seem much better than prius , granted its not as aerodynamic and its wider car but its a bit lower too. is think electric assited turbo on a prius sort of thing would be best for longveity of the emission lowering system long term. ...................for people who want more instant torque and dont trust the narrative of environmental issues(pretty much everyone) toyota said theyll have a normal first gear before the cvt is used, it maybe not engaged when user doesnt demand instant torque im not sure. not sure if they already have that in new prius
@@andrewmclean1239 Chris Anthony discussed in interviews. The larger battery options will be the exact same module layout with taller cells (2190 and 21120). I struggle to see how this will result in the needed range but I've also reached out to Chris M to confirm. They clearly have some high hopes for those taller cells to improve energy density.
It's not the ideal technology for vehicles, yes. But it'll be great for grid storage, and replacing the venerable SLA in all sorts of backup power applications. SLAs are only good for about three years.
Great update. Thank you very much! Sodium batteries for stationary energy storage with 100k cycles is awesome.
Would this technology be better for whole house battery?
Yes. It's cheaper than a lithium battery and the weight doesn't matter for stationary applications.
Very good report! We will see about the cycle life and yearly life. The recycling is great and safer.
Natron uses a water based electrolyte and thus a significantly lower cell voltage, but sounds great for grid and high energy applications.
Great to see and a no-brainer for stationary batteries
Probably yes for back-up batteries (do not have their self discharge speed data). Hopefully their production gets ramped up fast, even though the price of lithium is currently -80% down from year 2022 levels, which might slow down the transition.
I want a Natron home battery!
It's CATL, not KATL, right? He says "KATL" every time in this video. (not a big deal, I love your videos!)
Why do it do that! My bad
Maybe you do it because it’s pronounced like “cattle” (short for catalyst maybe?), from what I hear.
Fonix rules!
@@unclegeorge7845 I don't understand what you said. Did you mean "Phoniks rewlz?"
@@TaiViinikka Like the edjumacaded fellow said "I don't trust a person that can only spell a word one way!"
The best application of sodium-ion batteries is for solar panels and other commercial energy storage applications where battery weight and density are not a huge concern. I work in the power distribution sector and so many control systems that monitor and protect utility power distribution across the world run on DC power banks using 48V to 125V DC and they still use old lead acid batteries that have a terrible cycle life and are highly toxic to manufacture and dispose of. Some limited applications use LFP batteries and a few other chemistries now, but there aren't very many options that are commercially available yet and the high upfront cost prevents a lot of companies from switching over. If these sodium-ion batteries can be manufactured cheaper than lithium-ion ones for the same energy output and the same cycle life, they might finally kill off the use of lead acid batteries for these applications. Elimination of fire risk, low toxicity, and being able to fully discharge and operate below -20C make them ideal for low voltage battery backup systems and high-voltage energy storage systems in isolated areas.
I call BS. The most important place for sodium ion batteries is in domestic appliances such as power tools and electric assist pedal bicycles. These are the places where a failure during charging or storage is likely to kill or destroy
Would love to see Aptera have a sodium battery option in a couple years.
I am very excited also..... I just hope I live long enough to see Sodium/Ion Batteries in the market. I live full time in an RV and I'm designing/building a Solar Power System to completely handle all the 30 amp Power requirements. I do not want to spend $900.00 on each Lith/Ion battery....! =)
Could see natrons batteries even as is going into battery locomotives and cargo ships.
But would need some really really big charging infrastructure. We are talking about heavy duty movable bus bars here.
Every second was packed with info😎
Material: Sodium hexafluorophosphate (NaPF6) in a mixture of ethylene carbonate (EC) and dimethyl carbonate (DMC).
Sodium Ion batteries can work well for things like Power Walls and grid storage where weight and energy density don’t matter as much. As they evolve and get better they can move into cars. What is the charger / discharge efficiency compared to Lithium ion?
You don’t get 100% efficiency in the Charge / Discharge cycle. What is the efficiency of the different battery types? What percentage of the electrons you push at the battery can you get back out after resistance, heat loss and more?
A laudable effort! Li Ion rates around 300W hour per kg. They have a little ways to go. The future is electric and batteries are the prime energy storage. So, the beauty is a sane competion, racing for greater energy density, charging speed, and less bulk and weight. We used to be told in the "news" that Li Ion were catching fire from time to time, and were toxic, as well as being difficult to recycle. Technologies change fast, so as of recent, Elon Musk assured us Lithium is the 33rd most abundant element. Refining it to high-grade purity is still tedious. He eliminated cadmium, so that's that. .Then, I haven't heard of igniting Li Ion in years (yeah, we must respect 10 - 15% of capacity in the charging mode - obvious no?). And the number of recycling companies, right now, recycling Lithium are growing (find this for yourself on youtube). Adding all this together = the problem we tried to solve, a decade or so ago, that was a catalyst to a quest for new tech, has been overcome, rendering the current replacement of Li Ion batteries, rather unnecessary. Your channel is much appreciated. Cheers!
All of these new battery technologies are always about 5 years away. So it's shocking when one of them actually comes to market.
Tesla Gigafactory Berlin took 3 years to build when the German promised Tesla it would take just 1 year.
Tesla Gigafactory Shanghai completed in 11 months when the Chinese promised Tesla it would need 1 year.
Today Berlin's productivity is still 50% of Shanghai's and stagnated there.
See the differences in labor qualities?
@@blackknight4996maybe not quality, but in productivity!
Western people have become lazy, it is just that. That is why western car manufacturers are in teouble compare to Chinese ones.
For city cars, a 30kwh battery is probably fine if people are okay charging it every few days. And if the cost is low, then that's another incentive to buy them.
I hope it becomes a norm here in EU to have slow charging for every parking spot at work. Should cost very little to implement (slow charging= cheap thin cables), and the cars are standing there all day anyway. Even better, if electricity is generated by building a solar 'roof' over the parking lot.
Thank you as always for the useful videos!
I'm not knowledgeable about batteries, but assuming the Na batteries take up the same volume and weight as Aptera's Na-Mn-Co batteries, then it seems like using the 1000-mile range model but with Na batteries would be a good option for those of us who were wanting the lower range option anyway. 200 W h per kg / 275 W h per kg = 73%. That would equate to 730 miles of range, yes? Or am I approaching this incorrectly?
EDIT: To clarify, by "1000 range model" I do not mean getting 1000-miles of range with an Na battery. What I mean is to use the layout of the current 1000-mile battery case, and replace them with Na batteries. So, less miles, but perhaps enough to satisfy those of us who wanted, say, the 600-mile option but now with the Na battery tech.
The Sodium (NA) batteries are physically larger and heavier, so it would not be possible to get longer ranges in the physical space and cargo carrying limits of the Aptera package.
The Sodium battery would likely also be iron phosphate since it would waste the cost savings to pair it with Nickel (Ni), Manganese, or Cobalt.
Sodium Iron Phosphate would be similar to Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) just cheaper with nearly the same range, but larger and heavier
No you are not. The problem becomes one of mass and volume. To get 1000 miles of range, you may need 250kWh of battery. At 200Wh/kg, you will need 750Kg of battery + container + cooling system + BMS, ie 900-1000Kg in dead mass. That mass and the volume (dont have the data to determine the numbers) will be too much for such a small car.
One big reason why sodium ion batteries are cheaper is due to shipping weight.
Salt mines are also found in US friendly countries too which means that the US will probably be keen on sodium
I saw a commercial for Aptera on Tubi a couple of weeks ago and imagine my smile
What needs to be different between lithium versus sodium cars besides the battery? Do they put out different voltages? Do they have different power/volume or weight ratios?
Winnebago had a Sodium battery in a concept Class A bus 5-6 years ago with a 150 mile range. In a 33-38 foot vehicle the extra weight was not an issue and they were touting the fact that it could not catch fire. I think they were aiming it at a market of mobile libraries and mobile command centers for counties, or cities rather than the interstate RV crowd, but that was before the advent of LFP batteries which also don’t catch fire.
Many RV’s have been adopting LFP as house batteries since they are small and light and can eliminate the need for a generator.
I think Sodium batteries would be ideal for neighborhood vehicles if we could successfully adopt them for shuttling kids to school and activities and errands rather than make 4 mile runs in the XL SUV that costs $70k. You could do the same run in a Squad for $7k and save the SUV for weekend camping trips. Short solo trips would be better on a bike, but taking the herd to school and soccer games would be for a neighborhood vehicle
Fine for a bus since the batteries are comparatively huge (2.5x bigger) compared to NCM/NCA chemistries. Aptera could make it work given the R&D budget because the base design is just that efficient but 360 miles with sodium is a best case and needs the larger belly pan. As a new product and limited to a handful of chinese manufacturers they are not easy to source.
LFP batteries don’t catch fire. Really? What source did you refer to when choosing that fact?
@@theairstig9164 they are less volatile in general and some designs like the byd blade functionally won't ignite when punctured (no known cases of blade fires and nail test video). Statistically any ev fire is very rare and lfp drops the odds by another order of magnatude or more.
Very informative. I believe the VW JV car was the first to market in February 2023.
So, in Europe VW have small city EV vehicles across the VW/SEAT/Skoda brands - basically the VW Up! and VW Polo.
The Yiwei 3 could easily be brought across to fit below the proposed iD.2 - it already looks similar to the VW Up! so could easily wear a VW Group badge.
VW's European pricing is daft, bordering on gouging, compared to US and China. The iD.3 in China sells for 40% of the EU price, the LWB Buzz is about $20k cheaper in the US than simply converting the European price. That's RRP, BTW, so hopefully negates all the "yeah, but taxes" arguments. Even so, if the Chinese prices for both are similar and the "charge 2.5x as much for the same car in EU" model is used, then that $8k becomes €20k, which would slot in comfortably under the last proposed price for the iD.2 that I can recall.
Lots of assumptions and maybes in all that, of course!
Just a heads up that there is a new 2D material similar to Graphene but with even more manipulative
configurative opportunities that shows great promise for many new uses, including for cheaper and
more powerful Batteries where Graphene is just not suitable, yeah I forget what they called it, but
what's great about the new material is it's even stronger than graphene and the matrix's that the
material can be configure into seems perfect for batteries that could use a substitute for the rare and
or dangerous materials that need to be negated.
The most important reason we listened to your podcast ab7 Lithium Ion Batteries was to find out what the Milage might be on these 1st Hybrid Batteries Mileage Range...?
Very informative video. Thanks Steve
You can only run L-ion down to 20% so the range would be S-ion ~120-160wh to L-ion 120-220. And if you go by the 2nd gen S-ion it's 160-180. So it is more of an apples to apples comparison than it would look like on paper.
Well, apparently the world's largest Li deposit has been discovered beneath the Salton Sea in California. But Na-ion seems like a nice technology.
They just made a huge Lithium discovery in California. As this news gets out expect Lithium prices to drop. This means an Aptera's price may decrease. Elsewhere I have seen estimates that say the price per battery will be nearly 10 times less. These are early days. We can expect both prices to fall and sodium to fall further.
Yeah, the lithium deposits in the Salton Sea, southeast of Palm Springs, is said to be HUGE. But water to process it may be a problem.
@@BillMitchell-lm8dg Happy new year.
I think people can be clever when there is money to be had so I expect the processing issue to be solved.
The biggest question I have about the sodium ion chemistry is, what is the charge - discharge ratio efficiency?
Reliance Industries has US $120 billion revenue (2023), has market cap of $208 billion (2023). One of their plants is the largest crude refiner in the world. They are heavy into Chemical and IT. What am trying to say is once they are into mfg of sodium ion, it will be substantial supply capacity added. They are know to go huge.
Reliance is doing a stellar job of not just batteries but also Green Hydrogen. With these two and Adani securing PV solar modules from end to end, we can achieve energy independence in India. That is not just good for the environment and climate change, it is extremely important from a security point of view for India, given the kind of nonsense that is plaguing global maritime trade: stuff like the Houthis blowing up ships in the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden, etc. While oil is important, we need to move away from it asap.
I wonder why the foreign and domestic discourse surrounding Modi is singling out Modi-Ambani and Adani trio for their attack. It is as if they want to scuttle this entire effort of India transitioning away from fossil fuels and into green tech and thereby gaining energy independence.
The cost of the lithium in a typical EV battery is about $100. So changing to sodium would save about $90. That’s a trivial amount. If sodium made the car last, say, half as long, then the cost to the consumer would be much more than $90.
And if the efficiency of the vehicle is 10% less then the savings of using sodium would be swallowed up by electricity costs in 2-3 years. (Plus higher carbon emissions because of greater energy use.)
But the other great value of sodium ion batteries is to simply provide a viable alternative to lithium, so that prices don't get out of control, as they did in recent years.
So $78,000 per metric ton of Lithium and you say there is only $100 worth of lithium in an EV so there is only 2.82 lbs of Lithium in the average EV???? Someone help me out here.
Actually, prices for for the average NMC cell in China are just over 70 dollars right now and 60 for LFP. We don't know about sodium costs yet but CATL predicted about 90 dollars for the first few years and BYD said it costs over twice as much for sodium ion vs LFP this year and only expect to be cheaper by 2025. The theoretical best price for sodium is around mid-40 dollars per kwh with LFP and LFMP being high 40 dollars. Not much of a difference. At current lithium prices, the lithium only makes up around 5 dollars per KWH.
I do not understand one thing. Why not use lithium for electric vehicles and sodium for home or grid storage. There should be a video about this home storage made out of sodium ion batteries and has a meager price. It seems that market competition is not yet working for these products.
Exciting to see this! Btw the CC at 0:50 says $88,500! 😮
But when will there be the first one for the western (European and US) markets? Thats the real question
Soon!
I would say less than a year, but still don.t know how the charging cycle is with these.
I am sure that electric scooters will get this first (safe for home charging!) and the price.
Cars 2026…
Sodium Ion better suited for home/business
KATL or CATL? Either way thank you for all your work.
Contemporary Amperex Technology Co., Limited (CATL). KATL is an AM radio station in Montana.
-20C= -4F and this in Tulsa, OK and it got down to -15F here several times this week. So, what would the performance of a Na-ion battery-powered vehicle be like under those conditions?
Much better than lithium
That is the point. Lithium loses allmost 40% at -20C… about 50% at -30C…. So yeah… much less that lithium.
How do you improve energy density in a sodium ion battery? Is purely based on what the cathode and anode are made of?
Sodium batts can be made in any country with access to the sea, they will scale much faster once the genie gets out of the bottle!
Dream on
I really want a cheap, simple electric car. I don't need self driving dragsters with a 100kw battery. Just an electric Fiat Panda.
Northvolt in sweden also produces sodium batteries. I don't know how far they have come but they claim they have a battery with 160 kw/kg. And work with the forest industry.
160 kw/kg is a nonsense number. I recommend you re-check.
I think Steve just discovered sodium ion late. They were in development for a while and I'm pretty sure we were supposed to be getting them for a year or so. Then again there's usually delays with new tech
2:00 You're *saying KATL,* but the copy shows *CATL.*
Scrolling randomly sucks most.
Great coverage, though.
The whole WORLD says "CATL". But Steve pronounces it his way.
@@BillMitchell-lm8dg He *spelled it out.*
"Kay-ay-tee-ell", rather than "See-ay-tee-ell."
Hit the 2:00 link and listen for yourself.
Or was he saying "Kay-tee-ell," as if to somehow combine the C and A into a single phoneme? Is this an esoteric, or internal company-specific thing?
I do that when I'm having fun with element names in chemistry...but I didn't originate it. (To offer an example, silicon plus cobalt (Si + Co) becomes SiCo...or "psycho." But I'm *reaching* for that to give you the benefit of the doubt.
@@stevejordan7275 - The name of the company is "Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Limited", according to Wikipedia, "abbreviated as CATL, ... a Chinese battery manufacturer and technology company founded in 2011 that specializes in the manufacturing of lithium-ion batteries for electric vehicles and energy storage systems, as well as battery management systems."
Another good video, I believer the US tariff on Chinese cars is 27.5 % That is the last figure I've seen, unless it has just changed.
Agree. Don''t know where he got 100% tariff number from but that's misinformation.
Check out the BYD Seagull. Sodium ion battery, sold very well in 2023.
they announced that they would use a sodium battery but it was actually sold with a LFP blade battery. BYD is building their sodium battery plant right now though.
I really want Sodium Sulfur batteries. You'd get slightly better energy density than lithium phosphorus, but at a fraction of the cost.
This was interesting, but I am more interested in solid state batteries. Perhaps you could do episode on them when more info is available, someone starts producing; do comparison to sodium ion and lithium ion
So its now July 2024, how's this product progressed ?
Is there a good source for first gen sodium batteries to use for solar?
Safer and heavier but at least they wont explode or catch fire on you. Better tech :).
Great post!
I'm a little surprised he didn't mention the Swedish company Northvolt who SEEM to be gearing up for commercial scale battery production of Sodium Ion. I love the concept of the Aptera but I think they got caught in the "Great is the enemy of good" conundrum. By the time they get their car out there looks to be competition that will siphon off too much of the target market.
On the other hand I would think the IP is very valuable if someone wants to buy it out. But either way, that clock is ticking and they are running out of time.
Its called vaporware.
@@stonethrower6065 So you mean VW, Volvo, BMW, Scania and others who have invested $55 billion have done that on vaporware? I beg to differ.
@@knowledgeisgood9645 Sweden's sodium ion batteries will become available about the same time Toyota will start producing solid state batteries which will be available tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow...... Yes, its all marketing hype.
I'm wondering if we can buy the batteries themselves at a reasonable price. I have a fiberglass body sports car I'd like to power with an electric motor. I can get an electric motor locally at a good price.
ב''ה, Reno may be the worst place to have interest in this from, but apparently there's a bunch of "crate motor" conversion shops around now including certain OEMs if they haven't given up the products. Depending on budget you could see what they've already figured out.
If Aptera ever hits the market there tech will be 10 years old. Was great 10 years ago.
One question remains. Can they be charged to 100% and still have good longevity?
KATL is the new airport code for Atlanta - also an AM radio station in Montana. Don't you mean CATL?
Yes I keep saying that wrong
Fonix rules!
Is BYD making their own sodium ion battery?
What happened to Ni-MH batteries?
So how does this effect aptera and is aptera producing yet?
Now this is great news. It is about time that some new battery tech is intriduced.
Any data on charging time for sodium ion?
I'd be happy to take my Aptera 400 mi version with a Na-ion battery that could do 300 mi.
learned a lot, thank you
For personal mobility devices (e-bikes, scooters, big wheels, etc) not having thermal runaway is essential since these things are often brought into homes to recharge. Of course not having thermal runaway on any EV is a big plus as now now witness a cargo ship burning for five days off Alaska with Li-Ion packs.
Another ship burning? I didn't catch that information on news portals.
Thanks Steve, Gosh, where does this leave all those billions in lithium?
Lithium will always have a couple of use cases. Glass, grease and making steel. Also lithium NCM and lithium polymer batteries have their domains. I’ll leave you to figure out what they are
Can they use these in hybrides?
It would be amazing if cars used the natron chemistry actually, if the weight was reasonable. After 10-20 years, the market would be flooded with used good batteries. You'd no longer have to worry about the most expensive part of your car failing prematurely.
toyota is working onwards on hydromatic cars with a fuel cell And water out of a tube !
A 5-yr prediction of sodium battery to 1 yr materialization is pretty dramatic. Does it means the understand of the Chinese science and tech and can ability is inadequate? Also, a linear combination of a mix of lithium and sodium batteries should give you all kind of ranges and price points, pleases share your insight on that.
Now just need marine version for ships boats can use it😊
Around 4:00. Lithium is one of the most common minerals on earth. The problem is the legacy process of refining lithium. Tesla is addressing this by developing a whole new process for lithium refinement.
Well 17 parts per million it's more common than platinum or gold or uranium or indium. But aluminum is 82,000 parts per million in iron is 60,000 parts per million and sodium is 30,000 parts per million. So it's not even in the same ballpark as really common minerals
@@ApteraOwnersClub No, it doesn't matter if there are more common minerals. Lithium is ubiqutous in the earth.
That's just the facts. Also, you are ignoring the legacy outdated way of refining lithium which makes it a very inefficient process. Lithium is abundant across the globe. It is only the outdated legacy way of refining that limits the acess to lithium to a few countries. AGAIN, Tesla, once again, is changing the dynamics and blowing away the old way of doing things. Am I not being clear enough? Or, are you stuck in the old paradigm?
I think multiple battery types are important. Cold weather is important to some while others need max range while others want max recharging capabilities. I think eventually there will be a couple of battery types available after some trial and error. Lithium is not the enemy and will be available in high quantities at a reasonable price in the very near future.. Lithium is a very common element that we had little use for and little refining capability. Refineries are being built and very soon lithium will be very abundant and much cheaper than it is currently. I live in a cold weather area where cold weather performance will be a consideration. sodium ion looks good if they can improve longevity.
I don’t think “dirt cheap yet good enough quality” will ever come out of India. Hope China does it again with na-ion as it did with the solar panels.
You know any listed companies on US stock
Why do you say KATL for CATL?
More and more as Aptera isn't in production the completion is getting better and better. I put my money down because at the time there wasn't anything close to the cost with a decent range. If some 4 passenger car has over a 400 mile range that cost less than $35,000 I'll probably cancel my order. I like the Aptera but reality is it won't have any advantage if normal passenger cars become available for the same price and same range. More and more Lithium deposits have been discovered and it's price has been dropping rapidly.