Out of all the drum teachers on RUclips, you are an interesting cat. Some of these guys are hard to get behind and support. And then a precious few are worthy and you sir are one of those players who also just so happens to be talented at teaching and passing along your experiences and knowledge obtained throughout your life. You are one of the most in the pocket drummers a true feel manipulator. I’m a fan!
Summary: 12" and 13" toms are not the problem. The problem is your expectations. If you're trying to make your 12" tom sound like a 10" tom or a 14" tom, then yes, maybe you shouldn't be using a 12" tom.
I get what you say. As Cody said, it's more trying to make a drum do something that it can't. Two 12" Toms can sound dramatically different even with similar heads, sizes, tuning.
I was going to post that same point in main comment section, and you're comment is 1st up - understandably so. Additionally every drum has a limited sweet spot for tuning, because if the drum is wound up too tight with tension rods- the drumhead will be surfacing only the most outer edge of the drum's bearing edge and it's literally impossible to achieve a balanced sound or definite pitch from one tuning rod to the next. On the flip side if a drumhead is too loose- it will be a dull flat thud with no definite pitch either, and the drumhead will often times make an airy flapping overtone noise, and any change of venue(temperature/humidity change) will cause the drum to completely detune itself without even playing it.
I recorded in a studio once using a Pearl Export kit from the 90's. 22x16 kick, 12x10 rack, 13x11 rack, and 16x16 floor. That was the standard sizes for drums from that era on most kits. I tuned the kit and it actually sounded great. Those old Export kits are legendary for good reason. I had good intervals between toms and it was a fun experience. However, upon listening to the tracks after mixing and mastering, the 12" and 13" toms sounds were nearly indistinguishable. Isolated, it's a noticeable difference, but in the mix with other instruments, its hard to hear. So our solution was to re-mix the drum track and pan the 12" to the left slightly and 13" slightly to right. Then we panned the floor tom 90% to right. I gave us a sound that is that what the kit sounds like from the drummer's perspective. Really opened up the sound of that kit to another level.
I've always found 13s difficult, so was hoping for some angry sympathy, but got a nuanced and serious discussion instead. Still a bit pissed about it. Great channel, keep the content coming.
Thanks for your posts here. I started drumming 6 months ago at age 55… bought a nice, used Gretsch Renown RN2 kit: 10, 12, 16, 22. I recently picked up a matching 13x9 rack tom on Reverb. I want to tune the 13 low, because I don’t have a 14 floor tom. Would you suggest using a snare stand, a cymbal stand clamp, or some other stand to hold the 13?
@ 0:43.."Right Meow"....🤣🤣 Awesome!! Good video. My 12 is definitely the hardest to manage. I had no idea I suffered in company. Thank you for the great video as always!
Had a problem with my 13” DW Design series tom. Just couldn’t get it to sit where o wanted it and kept getting a “boingy” sound out of it. Never had an issue with other 13’s or any other size for that matter. Then I watched one of your last videos, “Your Resos are killing your sound” and that really helped dial that drum in! I don’t think people realize how much of a roll your reso heads play in making a drum sound great!!! Thank you guys!!!
Huh. I had a DW design kit for a bit, 13, 16, 22 and could never ever get the floor Tom and Tom to sound decent to me. I recently got a starclassic maple set 10, 12, 16, 22 and got the drums sounding perfect to me in almost no time. Is DW the issue here? I’ve sort of sworn off DW forever as a result
@@shitstain001 I have that same configuration. Once I dialed in the reso heads on that 13”, it was money. Then, I did two things I swore I’d never do. One, I switched to Evans heads! Two, I switched to coated heads!!!😱😱😱 Between the level 360° technology, and their new UV2 heads, the drums sound amazing!!!
@@shitstain001 Funnily enough I had a DW collectors kit that had a similar problem, no matter what heads I used it was always a real challenge to get a good sound out of it. Same as you I switched to Tama and tuned it perfectly within a few minutes.
I’ve been playing a set up of 12, 13, 16 for 28 years. However, I got a drum rack about a year into that 28 years and started playing “1up 2down” and started tuning the 13 lower to be the second floor Tom. Personally, I’ve never had issues with unruly toms anyway, but every time I buy a different drum set, I sit down with it for however long it takes, and “figure out what it wants to say,” so to say... If I find the drum is still unruly, I’ll ask another drummer what they hear and what they think needs to be done...
Glad you did this video. I had recently heard talk in a video about just this thing, which had me sidetracked about my 12” rack Tom. Being new at the drumming game, but not born yesterday... I just want the facts with clarity. Very useful info, Thanks!
So glad to hear it! There's a TON of misinformation about this and other topics that is based on anecdotal experience rather than scientific evidence. Thanks for watching!
Another great one. The mastery is how you tackle both "Can't make a drum do something it doesn't want to do" and "Curating how a tom will fit in with its friends." I'm convinced there's like a innate aversion to the number 13 attached to people's dislike of that sized tom. I enjoy the 13/16 tom combination for a lot of styles.
In my opinion the biggest mistake one can make when having the 12-13-16 setup is tuning the 12 too low. That leaves you with a far too small of an interval between the 12 and 13.
You can always just tune the 13 too low as well and they are both right. You can treat it as a 2 up 1 down or a 1 up 2 down depending on your tuning but have the form factor of 2 up either way only with worse positioning because those things are huge. Or even commit to the 13 floor with a clamp off the ride stand.
Thats why most professional working/gigging drummers who dont have a roadie to haul extra drums around and make sure those 2 drums are at a different pitch over a PA System(which is even more difficult than acoustic - without mics) will ditch one of those rack toms or not even purchase both of those rack toms in a kit.....because for the suddle if any difference at all (in an amplified live stage multi-instrument band mix setting) between pitch sounds of those 2 drums is a waste of time, excess space on stage and in vehicle, and also removing one of those drums is one less piece to carry/haul around. The old Charlie Watts/Ringo set is still the standard for those reasons.
Over the last 2 decades, I’ve gravitated to 10, 12, 14 toms and I am able to get good separation. Someone recently gave my an entry level mapex kit with deeper 12 and 13 inch toms and I was thrilled to see I can get a nice separation in the tone. I tend to tune both heads at a similar tension and due to the larger head size and depth they each seem to naturally have their own interval in the mix. Also wanted to mention that I love the videos and always look forward to the new ones. Thanks!!!
Man I cant tell you how much I needed this video. What an eye opener! After playing my electronic kit I bought an acoustic drumkit. I couldnt figure out how to tune my 12inch. I kinda knew what I was looking for but didn't know how to achieve it. I now realized I was expecting a 13inch low tuning sound out of my 12inch rack tom. Im just gonna buy a 13 inch instead!
I never used to like 12s as I couldn't get an expensive kit I bought a long time ago to go low enough for my tastes but now I really enjoy my 12, 14, 20 kit, my 13, 16 and 22s and love mixing up the toms in the studio. All about accurate tuning for the drum as mentioned. BTW, the acrolite sounded killer in this episode!
Excellent video guys.Only problem I've had usually comes from my 10# tom wanting to set my snare off.But as ya know you play with it long enough and you learn to find something that sounds good and works.
For me, it's not about the diameter or depth but the difference between the toms. For example, it's hard to get good separation between a 12, 13, 14 combination as their ranges don't give each other space. Thats why I like my 10,12,14,16 setup as I can take each to low, mid, or high tunings without them encroaching on the range of the others.
I think the 12 and 13 both sound awesome low-tuned, but high-tuned only the 13 sounds decent. And of course the 16 inch floor tom sounds amazing. The low-tuned 13 along with the floor tom sounded especially sweet together.
I've hated 13" toms my entire life just because the one that came with my first kit never sounded good in between the 12" and 16" toms and was physically too deep to position comfortably. 😂
Thats exactly my problem right now, i started drumming 3-4 months ago, and my 13" is super deep. Although i like the sound, it means my kit set up in an awkward way. I have 6,8,10(roto-toms) 8, 12, 13 (up), 16 (floor). 12 & 13 are both very deep power toms, ive been considering cutting them shorter (i could easily cut a proper bearing edge), but im also considering buying a 10" tom to have 8,10,12 up; 13, 16 down, with the possibility of turning the 13 into a 'snom'. though id rather have a 14" snom which can use the same parts as a normal snare. I also worry i'd have too many drums at that point, since i also want to make 2 octobans with steel tubes someday; i prefer the sound of kits with a lot of cymbals as oppose to a lot of drums
I have a 12" tom that is the most resonate tom on my set. On the opposite end I can never get a 13" tom to sit between a 12" and 16". If it's a 13" and 16" set it's easier but a 13" is usually the most troublesome size for me in terms of toms. 13" snares how ever are amazing! All these years I thought I was the only one that couldn't tune a 13"
It's also very defining when you use a cheapo drum kit. I'm a 69 yo resurrected recreational drummer , returning to "playing" after a 50 year hiatus. Retired in 2020 forced by physical disabilities due to spinal issues , my wife gifted me a drum kit at xmas 2018. Watching RUclips videos , learning from Cody and others on line about DRUMS , tuni g, different heads, etc., has educated me and also frustrated me. Using cheapo Gammon drums fir beginners , can be challenging when trying to achieve acceptable notes from tge drums. The kit has 12, 13 and 16 inch Toms. Notwithstanding that the snare was replaced with a DW Design Series 14 X 6.5 purchased used ( whatta difference playing a quality drum), I have replaced the reso and batter heads on the toms 3x. Yes the 13 " is difficult to achieve an acceptable sound, but it seems ( still wrestling with tge difference), that an Evans G2 clear batter, coated Remo ambassador reso yields the "best" sound to my ear. The 12" was easier to get there. The 16" floor tom has been my most challenging drum to tune to accetable sound. Tried the G2 clear batter and same reso, but it seemed difficult , same with Attack ToneRidge Clear . Went back to the G1s and that made a difference and yields a more acceptable sound. I had qualms about "mixing" batter heads on the toms, but figured at the end of the day, it sounds better to me, better resonance , more like Jared's DOOOOO, DOOOOO, reference when tuning toms on Drumeo.
If you think about it the 12/13/16 has always been stupid. it should be 12 14 16. with the 13 being closer in size to the 12 than the 16 it going to need a relative to its size lower tension to sit even between the two and to do that its not doing whats the 12 and16 are.
A very significant factor here is the actual drum . I have a cheapo Gammon kit gifted to me for xmas gift from my wife in 2018, to allow me to play in retirement. I returned to playing drums after a hiatus of 50 years (played in a garage band in HS). I have been able to tweak the 3 Toms, 12, 13 and 16 inch with 3 different head replacements , watching tuning tips from Cody, and others on line, which I knew nothing about. Recently, I procured (actually was gifted ) a pdp concept maple 10 x 8 rack tom. Whatta diffefence in the sounds achieved and ease of tuning quality products. Came with pdp clear batter and reso heads. The most difficult drum in my kit to tune and achieve an acceptable sound is the 16 " tom. I am using G2s Clear on the batter heads for the 12 and 13" toms, and a G1 clear ( the G2 just didn't sound good) which is producing acceptable sounds and notes.
i've personally got 12 and 16 toms which work together perfectly for me, but i've had to tune a 13 to fit in between those and ended up just removing it from the kit. no thank you!
One of my favorite toms is actually my Gretch 12" 5 lug Catalina. Has so much personality tuned up pretty high. I like that ride. Sounds like a cymbal.
My dad still has a cheap 90's "power tom" kit; it's a Pearl Forum with 13×10 & 14×10 rack toms. With the right heads and tuning it sounds semi-respectable but it's def not what you'd ever consider a particularly "responsive" kit. Growing up as a kid I played that kit for years. I'll never forget the first time I played a more reasonably sized kit, it felt like putting a cheat code on.
The 12 for sure would give me crazy tones. I guess I did what you did as far as finding where it wanted to be, oh and not hitting it so much. Lol. Thanks Mark
I’ve got a sixties Ludwig kit with 12 and 13 inch toms. I only used the 13 for about fifteen years. Tuned up the twelve for a specific sound and it ended up being my favorite even at lower tunings. If I needed to really project at at a certain tuning without mics in a larger space I might use the 13 again.
I have a 13 that is more challenging to tune than the other toms. After you hit it I get the meow sound after and I believe that it could be some sort of factory defect. The reso head is a G1 and batter head is a UV2. I put a little piece of tape on the bottom and it works fine also moon gel on the top at a specific location. I’m still not satisfied with it but at least the meow sound is controlled to a minimum. I do plan on changing all of the reso heads eventually but I’m not in a band or recording so it will work for now. Happy drumming everyone 🥁🪖🤘
For me having even sizes is easier to tune the intervals right, because I have 4 toms the most time, but you are right on all the things you're saying.
Been having fun with my Sonor Vintage Series 13, which when tuned with the bottom head a little higher sounded woeful no matter what I did. I'd even put it next to my Pearl Decade Maple 13" and used it as a reference (it sounds great bottom head tensioned up a little higher) but the reality is for me (and it's probably lack of talent!) they just respond to tensioning very differently. Both 6mm shells, but different edges, hardware and wood obviously. The Sonor is currently signing like an angel with both heads tensioned the same and is GLORIOUS - but it was quite a head scratching exercise.
I'm in the opposite camp. I've had 7 different kits in my life, three of which had 13" and almost all of which had 12", as well as some 8," some 10" and two 14" rack toms. And I never had trouble getting the 13s to sound good, but have almost always had trouble with the 12s. Never the 8s or 10s, but consistently the 12s. Which, I finally realized, probably means that for whatever reason, either my ears or my brain simply don't like the normal tonal range of a 12" drum. In other words, "it's not you, it's me." (I also don't like 14s much, either rack or floor, but love 16s, so it's not just that I like smaller toms...although I do tend to gravitate towards them, generally preferring extra definition over extra power and rumble.)
you should get a free app for you phone and measure the fundamental note of your toms after tunning, and see where they are, I have a tunebot and it makes life much simplier. it just tune 4ths or 5ths apart.
I haven't owned a 13" for over 20 years but I just got an INDe set with 12/13 and was a little nervous that I would have problems, but they're perfect. Even with the 14" floor tom, you can tell which drum is which easily.
13" toms are best by themselves when you're just playing 1 up. If you're using multiple toms, it's too difficult to get it "just right", because of the odd size. The 13 and 15" are the only odd sized toms. And who really uses a 15" anymore (except a few select big names, more for showiness imho). I've been doing research for over 2 years now. The problem I've found with the odd sized toms are the depths, when used in combination with other toms. The only reason we have them, is way back in the day, that's the only sizes they made. And it made a great Jazz tom, and the early days of Rock. Using the rule "for every 2" increase in diameter, increase depth by 1" (1.5-2" max), you end up with the following; 6x6, 8x7, 10x8, 12x9, 13x9.5 (half step), 14x10, 15x10.5 (half step), 16x11, 18x12 and so on. Now look at it from this way across... 6-6=0, 8-7=1, etc.. You get 0, 1, 2, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5 etc.. 13s and 15s are really only a half step between the other toms, but builders typically will treat them as a whole step, ie; 8x7,10x8, 12x9, 13x10, 14x11 and so on. As I described, 1,2,3... now you got 1,2,3,3,3, instead of 1,2,3,4,5. The optimum is to keep the odd sizes out period. Just stay with the even sized toms; 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18. Perfect "even" intervals. DW, I almost forgot DID create a 23" bass, but it's exclusive to him alone. Not in use in large numbers. But I understand his reason for making it and it does sound nice. It's still part selling tool though, to "one up" the other guys. ;) You're probably thinking "this guys an idiot, doesn't know what he's talking about", that's okay. You'll figure it out one day. ;) The odd sized drums should be treated as a half step between the other toms, and the depth should be in 1/2" increment, not a whole. If it's used by itself, then make the depth anything you want. Only if used together with other toms, you're gonna have the problems. Several builders (not the big boys yet) now are offering shells in 1/2" increments. They figured it out too. :) Hey... when you gonna make that video on those custom heads of yours with the holes through the resos instead of the batters?
i must be lucky as i've never ran into any problems while tuning my toms (10x8, 12x9, 13x10, 14x11, 18x16) as i know what all my drums are capable of and where they happily sit. the only time i've ever ran into a problem is when the heads are dead, the rims were bent/mishsapen or the drums out of round. ive always liked to start with the biggest drum and worked up because i found in 20+ years of playing and teching for people, if you start with the highest/smallest drum and work down but want a low punchy tuning, you get stuck pretty quick when it comes to the bigger sizes.
For me I've found myself liking a 10" and 16" setup for the past while, I would always use the 12" from my kit but have never been entirely happy with it. It always ends up being too high and resonant or too low and flappy, I've never really been able to hit a sweet spot with it. My 10" however I've found a sweet spot with and I like the separation of the notes between it and my 16" so I just use it.
Also, by the nature of their size, 12 and 13 inch drums tend to be mounted above and close to the top of the bass drum. If too close, it can cause choking problems from not having enough room below the resonant head, which might mislead you into thinking it's a tuning problem when it's not. Try the drum away from bass drum, tune and reposition as necessary.
With regards to the relationship between sizes, it’s been noted that the 13” is difficult to get tuned in a multi-tom setup where the 3 consecutive intervals are 12”, 13”, and 14”, and especially more so in older, deeper toms. Having that exact interval myself, I can attest to this difficulty. It can be done, but is even more difficult to maintain as the heads aren’t used evenly. The problem is that a 13” likes a range that is so close to the range that both the 12” and the 14” like to sit in, and they blend together too much. My intervals are 10”, 12”, 13”, 14”, 15”, and 16” toms. The 13” and the 15” like to push the smaller toms a little higher, and the larger toms too low (loose). This is where head choice tailored to each tom can improve tuning. I’ve also seen it recommended to keep a 2” diameter interval between toms to avoid this problem. It certainly helps.
i have a 12" 13" 14" 16" toms and mine seem to fit in a nice range from each other and sound really nice, i admit the 13" can sometimes be a pain but when you get it right and get used to the way it needs to be tuned they sound great.
I just spent the last two months deciding on the sizes of drums for my next large drum set. I decided that the right tuning of toms is 4ths between them all, except a 5th between last up and first down. I also decided that volume ratio's between drums is best at about 50% increase for a 4th and a 100% increase for a 5th. Strange I know. To that end, decided on: (Dia x Depth) 8x7, 10x7, 12x7, 13x9, 15x13, 18x14, 22x14. Notes: Any drum deaper than 14 doesn not get as much low end on tape. Deaper and harder wood drums sound deeper in the room, on tape, shallow drums are king.
As far as 12" stories... for many years I played a Yamaha Recording Custom kit (purchased in 1988) that was all power toms. This was before all of these suspension mounts existed. I had no issues with the 10, 14 or 16, all mounted toms... but with the 12 I had severe issues. I could tune it to a beautiful resonant pitch with a perfect amount of sustain and few unwanted overtones, when in my hand. But the second I put it on the tom mount (like I said, attached directly to the shell) the fundamental tone was choked right out of the drum and it took on all sorts of squirrely overtones. Finally, Remo came out with the RIMS mounts and that fixed it somewhat, but for about 5 years I seriously HATED that drum. I kinda still do... Later, in 1992, I had a custom set of Eames drums made in 10,12,14,15(!) standard-ish depths and mounted the rack toms with RIMS mounts. That 12x9 drum just SINGS and has a very nice wide tuning range.
Nice and ... i like the Pearl Master Custom(Maple MMX?) you use. I have MMX 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 toms and 22 bass and a 10 picollo. The snare was great but ... not really my thing so i changed that to Ludwig Supraphonic Bronze.I also have a Pearl Session Select jazz kit 12, 12, 14, 18 bass and a matching 14: wooden snare. My opinion about (these) Pearl drums: with other heads, other tuning, other sticks/mallets/brushes/rods/damping you have a wide variety of options that fit in many styles. Pearl is like a cameleon it can adapt to all kind of genres, acoustics and drummers. Hardware is great also when using it often on the road.
I like a lot of spread in my toms. To me, the ideal 3-tom setup is actually 10" 13" 16". I find that (to me) 10" 12" 16" is the opposite problem that 12"/13" sets have, but that the gap to the 16" is too wide.
I actually used to use the 10, 13, 16 setup when I played more than a 4 piece setup (which is very rare these days). You get the nice resonant high of the 10, the deep lows of the 16, with that 13 filling the space between perfectly. If you want a wide tonal range with multiple voices but don't want to haul a Neil Peart kit around, this is ideal!
I used to have issues with a 12" -- I figured out after a while that it was where it was positioned over my bass drum. I think the drum sounded like it wasn't resonating because the vibrations coming out of the bottom were being thrown back into the drum in a weird way. Moving it a few inches over with no change in tuning totally changed the behavior of the drum.
I play a 1999 Tama starclassic performer kit with five toms: 8 10 12 14 16, and the 12 has always been the pain to tune. Finally one time I decided to change the orientation of the mounting bracket and hoop relationship to the shell, just randomly turning it to where the badge doesn’t face out anymore, but the tuning problems were drastically reduced! I’ve gotten much better with tuning but am still stumped by when one lug sounds higher than the rest, yet when you lower it you discover it’s barely hanging on to the end of the thread, so there’s no room to lower it.
I play a 70s Gretsch Jazz Kit with a 12" tom, 14" & 16" FT and 18" BD. The 12"x8" tom sounds really beautiful, once you've checked it has only 5 lugs per side ;-) and have found its sweet spot - for me, this fits only with both heads tuned to the same note (fiberskyn and clear, both Diplomat).
oh, that is cool, i just wrote somewhere about the middle tom syndrom, which I call it. If you want to hear a drum makers view, I am happy to give it. If you don't, sorry... too late. The reason why the middle tom often does not sound well is pretty simple: it was not designed to be a middle tom! Let me explain it a bit... When drums were still acoustic (before 1964, drums usually did not get miked), drum sets usually had only one high and one low tom. If they had two high toms, it usually was either the same tom twice (Moon played 3x 12x8") or they had the same depth. In fact, until today, all other percussion instrumens come in same depth, but different diameter: Congas, Bongos, Timbale,... Why then did the drum set suddenly carry odd sizes, where the smaller drums are shallower, and the arger also get deeper? No, it is not because the depth of a drum makes it deeper in tone - remember, that we can archieve either by tuning, or when tuned with the same tension as a smaller drum, with the diameter. Larger diameter, same tension, deeper tone. When the beatles hit the scene, a lot of things changed. Everybody wanted to play in a band, and the stages, thanks to Marshall, got a lot louder. So loud, that in fact the drum manufacturers started building drums louder. And how do we make a drum set louder? - Larger diameter, thicker shells, and deeper sizes! When a drum set usually featured an 18 or 20" kick, we now see a 22 as standard; where you had the 14" FT, you got the 16", and the standard 12x8 was replaced with a 13x10. As Snare, steel shells were promising to drive the volume up too. So you see how now drum manufacturers offered a larger range of drums. Before, if drummers wanted two high toms, they either got two of the same size and depth, or some companies even had a smaller 10" in their catalog. But in the major companies catalogs before 1964, you never saw a set with what we call a standard set up (if you care, I have a complete collection, digitally, of ludwig, premier, pearl, tama... nearly all brochures since the1890 to 2000 for research purpose). Drummers simply used the louder set up, 22/13/16 and added the 12" tom from that older, let's call it acoustic set. Now, when we make a drum deeper, it is not just louder, the sound is different too. As air muffles, it has about 1.3g per liter, you get a dryer, less resonant, more percussive sound from a deeper drum than from a shallower one. Thus it is harder to get the middle tom to sound as warm and tonal and resonant as the smaller one. For some reason, the look of drums being decending got stuck in our brains and we would swear that it has musical reasons we do this. It was quickly mistaken as giving us lower end, and I hear this myth a lot (it escalated later in even deeper kick drums, for the love of god, drummers would swear they sound deeper too, despite the opposite being true), so nowadays, we just keep building drums that way, even though it makes no sense. And even I am guilty of this; i just again built a batch of about 60 drum sets, and I still have the larger 12" tom about an inch deeper than the 10", simply because it is not always wise being smarter than your customers. Drummers are very conservative, and for some reason, decending tom sizes look right to us, so we do not question that dogma. And a dogma it is. I should do a video about this... but that means I have to find a clean spot where i can point my camera at, and we are so cluttered right now... jeeeeez...
TL;DR: Drums used to be acoustic, then needed to get louder, and we then got a strange mixture of the loud and the acoustic drums, which obviously was mixed together without any musical intent, and we kept it that way because it looks cool. Gee, even I think it looks better, despite I know better.... thus, the middle tom sucks to tune.
I love a 9 X 13" rack. Pretty versatile. I've used it as a mid tom between a 10" rack and a 15" floor tom. I've used it as the only rack tom at times, tuned medium. And I've used it as a floor tom with a 10" on top for quieter gigs. I compared the 9 X 13" to a 10 X 12" I have, tuned exactly the same and they were pretty close. No, I'm glad I have a 13" rack.
True. 13 inches might be 33 cm which is an odd number, but 12 inches are 30.5 cm which is even more odd. There are no "odd sizes" it's all in your head
What was getting in your way of tuning the 12" that the Tune-Bot solved for you? Now that you've figured out what works with the Tune-Bot, are you tuning that drum by ear?
I've had difficulty with the deeper shelled rack toms not so much the standard depth rack toms ... square sized floor toms can be challenging too ... 14 x 14 and 16 x 16 ... but on all it was a matter of eliminating unwanted overtones where you'd get an undersirable bo-ing [where the drum walked up in pitch from the fundamental] more than a clear throated bong.
I noticed that birch and African mahogany drums like to hang in the lower tunings, at least in my experience. I can get a 10" drum sounding like a comfortable 12" tom, and the same can be said for an 8" sounding like a 10". That's why I'm a weirdo that uses 8", 10", 16" tom setup.
I've never liked the sound of a 12" tom with a set but do like them when used seperately on their own kind of like a field drum. Currently I have a 70s Slingerland with a 13x9, 16x14 and 22x14 with an Aceolite or Suprahonic snare drum to pair with the set according to style which are both 14x5. I've been collecting cymbals for a while and have all the even sizes from 10"-24" in Zildjian A , K or Paiste 2002. What I've found to be working nicely for me is to use one crash oriented cymbal and one ride and to tune my 13 with the crash, my 16 with the ride and my snare and bass drum with the hi hats. It seems to really make the set sing and allows me to worry less about drum dial numbers etc...It seems to me that if you pick the proper cymbals for the style you want to play, tune your drums to match those cymbals and play; it seems musically cohesive. Has anybody else tried this technique and or have further advice?
Robert, I'm a little confused... How do you tune a ride cymbal to a drum or a crash cymbal to a drum? Do you figure out according to the pitch of the cymbal what note it is and then try to tune to that note so it resonates better together or something like that is that what you mean? Very interesting
@@polara01, I tune the drums to my cymbals not my cymbals to the drums. Ride cymbal goes with floor tom. Crash with mounted tom and snare and bass drum with the hi hats. The cymbals have a pitch when you give them a medium light crash and I match that pitch on the corresponding drum.
@@robertobrien2903 sounds like a good idea I will experiment with that the thing is each drum has a sweet spot so you might be better off tuning your drums to how they sound and then just going through your pile the cymbals until you find cymbals that would match how you like your drums to sound... but if that works for you and your drums sound good that way then I guess it's all good I just prefer to tune my drums a third, fourth, or fifth apart from each other almost like any musical instrument so it gets a bit tricky if you are a going to tune them to be in harmony with cymbals but I will definitely experiment with this and let you know how it works out
@@polara01 Sometimes I change heads when I switch up cymbals so that sweet spot can change a little bit as well. I alsp choose cymbals that work together in these common intervals you talk about. I'm not trying to play space drums for NASA, I'm trying to make what I have sound as congruent as possible when I pick a group of cymbals to go with the heads I want to use for the music I am playing. I've found that I can keep an entire set of batter or reso heads in one bass drum box so I am just using one set and switch heads and cymbals to fit my needs. I use an Ambassador with the Acrolite and and an Emperor with the Supraphonic mostly and match things up accordingly. One set, two snares and some different sets of heads along with a bunch of cymbals can get most of the sounds anyone would want to hear. I think with one set 13, 16, 22, a group of good Zildjians and Paistes, a set of Ambassadors, A set of Emperors and a set of control sounds with Ambassador resos on the bottom, clear or coated you can make all the sounds needed to sound great in any situation. Use the drum dial to even things out and your ear to perfect it....
What do you think of 10-13-16 and 20x14 BD for Jazz to rock. I have an all maple shell set tuned for Hard rock and rock. 10-12-14-16 all power toms and 22x18 BD. Looking for an all around set that might even live with single ply heads on the toms.
I have a little kit with a 16x16 floor tom as the kick, a 10" snare, an 8x8 rack and a 10x13 as the floor tom I love the kit, sounds great. I also have a kit where the rack tom is a 10x14 and the floors are 14x16 and 16x18 and the kick is a 14x24. it sounds great too. the 14 is probably tuned higher than the 13, but both drums are within their range and sound perfect within their kits.
I had a 90s Tama rockstar pro with a 13" Tom impossible to tune. I guess that basswood (that they used at the time) with the weird 13"x12" sizes were causes. It was low, yes, but it had uncontrollable overtones.
I had a cheap 5-piece kit that had 12" 13" 16" toms. Using either the 12" or the 13" as a rack tom in a 4-piece set up sounded great. Playing both of them together never worked out for me.
Super informative! I have a kit with fairly shallow rack toms (8x6.5, 10x7 & 12x8) with deep floor toms (14x14, 16x15). It's almost like I have two different sets of toms in terms of how they "feel" when I play them. Have you ever run across a reason a kit might be put together that way? Thanks!
Square sizes (equal diameter and depth dimensions) are quite standard for floor toms these days but not for rack toms. Your configuration is quite common.
I'm not the type to buy a new drum set every 10 years. I bought my set in 1972 & still play it. Toms are 13, 14, & 16. I can use a thick head on the 13 & tension it medium. The 14 is tuned for a nice resonance, low. The 16 is well below the 14. I've always gotten good tuning with this trio.
I am playing a 10x10, 11x13 and a 16x16. I love the 3 inch separation! I use Remo clear Emperors for batter heads and Remo clear Ambassadors for resonant heads.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I love that the RdavidR head is still on the floor tom...
And the high toms from that kit as well! We LOVE how they sound.
I was about to ask when did Evans do tom ST dry's?
@@ryandonohue152 They don't, yet. RdavidR made them.
@@drumjedi5301 That was the one rdavidr I missed..
Out of all the drum teachers on RUclips, you are an interesting cat. Some of these guys are hard to get behind and support. And then a precious few are worthy and you sir are one of those players who also just so happens to be talented at teaching and passing along your experiences and knowledge obtained throughout your life. You are one of the most in the pocket drummers a true feel manipulator. I’m a fan!
Summary: 12" and 13" toms are not the problem. The problem is your expectations. If you're trying to make your 12" tom sound like a 10" tom or a 14" tom, then yes, maybe you shouldn't be using a 12" tom.
I get what you say. As Cody said, it's more trying to make a drum do something that it can't. Two 12" Toms can sound dramatically different even with similar heads, sizes, tuning.
thanks, i like the subjects of these videos but they dont half drag out what could be said in a minute.
I was going to post that same point in main comment section, and you're comment is 1st up - understandably so. Additionally every drum has a limited sweet spot for tuning, because if the drum is wound up too tight with tension rods- the drumhead will be surfacing only the most outer edge of the drum's bearing edge and it's literally impossible to achieve a balanced sound or definite pitch from one tuning rod to the next. On the flip side if a drumhead is too loose- it will be a dull flat thud with no definite pitch either, and the drumhead will often times make an airy flapping overtone noise, and any change of venue(temperature/humidity change) will cause the drum to completely detune itself without even playing it.
I recorded in a studio once using a Pearl Export kit from the 90's. 22x16 kick, 12x10 rack, 13x11 rack, and 16x16 floor. That was the standard sizes for drums from that era on most kits. I tuned the kit and it actually sounded great. Those old Export kits are legendary for good reason. I had good intervals between toms and it was a fun experience. However, upon listening to the tracks after mixing and mastering, the 12" and 13" toms sounds were nearly indistinguishable. Isolated, it's a noticeable difference, but in the mix with other instruments, its hard to hear. So our solution was to re-mix the drum track and pan the 12" to the left slightly and 13" slightly to right. Then we panned the floor tom 90% to right. I gave us a sound that is that what the kit sounds like from the drummer's perspective. Really opened up the sound of that kit to another level.
I've always found 13s difficult, so was hoping for some angry sympathy, but got a nuanced and serious discussion instead. Still a bit pissed about it. Great channel, keep the content coming.
I love that you guys are still rocking the heads David made for you.
It's something we'd wanted to try for a while so when they turned out as expected we were quite pleased. We'll definitely be making use of them!
In my experience, 13"s always looooove to go super low. Used one as a floor tom for a couple years. Great video!
I have an old 13x9 Oakland tom that goes lower than my 14x12 Superstar Hyperdrive floor tom. Fascinating, and it pairs up great with the 16x16 ft
Thanks for your posts here. I started drumming 6 months ago at age 55… bought a nice, used Gretsch Renown RN2 kit: 10, 12, 16, 22. I recently picked up a matching 13x9 rack tom on Reverb. I want to tune the 13 low, because I don’t have a 14 floor tom. Would you suggest using a snare stand, a cymbal stand clamp, or some other stand to hold the 13?
@ 0:43.."Right Meow"....🤣🤣 Awesome!! Good video. My 12 is definitely the hardest to manage. I had no idea I suffered in company. Thank you for the great video as always!
Had a problem with my 13” DW Design series tom. Just couldn’t get it to sit where o wanted it and kept getting a “boingy” sound out of it. Never had an issue with other 13’s or any other size for that matter. Then I watched one of your last videos, “Your Resos are killing your sound” and that really helped dial that drum in! I don’t think people realize how much of a roll your reso heads play in making a drum sound great!!! Thank you guys!!!
Huh. I had a DW design kit for a bit, 13, 16, 22 and could never ever get the floor Tom and Tom to sound decent to me.
I recently got a starclassic maple set 10, 12, 16, 22 and got the drums sounding perfect to me in almost no time.
Is DW the issue here? I’ve sort of sworn off DW forever as a result
@@shitstain001 I have that same configuration. Once I dialed in the reso heads on that 13”, it was money. Then, I did two things I swore I’d never do. One, I switched to Evans heads! Two, I switched to coated heads!!!😱😱😱
Between the level 360° technology, and their new UV2 heads, the drums sound amazing!!!
@@shitstain001 Funnily enough I had a DW collectors kit that had a similar problem, no matter what heads I used it was always a real challenge to get a good sound out of it. Same as you I switched to Tama and tuned it perfectly within a few minutes.
I’ve been playing a set up of 12, 13, 16 for 28 years. However, I got a drum rack about a year into that 28 years and started playing “1up 2down” and started tuning the 13 lower to be the second floor Tom. Personally, I’ve never had issues with unruly toms anyway, but every time I buy a different drum set, I sit down with it for however long it takes, and “figure out what it wants to say,” so to say... If I find the drum is still unruly, I’ll ask another drummer what they hear and what they think needs to be done...
I developed a similar philosophy for my 13 and treating it like a second floor tom and embracing the resonance while having punchier 12s on top.
Glad you did this video. I had recently heard talk in a video about just this thing, which had me sidetracked about my 12” rack Tom. Being new at the drumming game, but not born yesterday... I just want the facts with clarity. Very useful info, Thanks!
So glad to hear it! There's a TON of misinformation about this and other topics that is based on anecdotal experience rather than scientific evidence. Thanks for watching!
Another great one. The mastery is how you tackle both "Can't make a drum do something it doesn't want to do" and "Curating how a tom will fit in with its friends."
I'm convinced there's like a innate aversion to the number 13 attached to people's dislike of that sized tom. I enjoy the 13/16 tom combination for a lot of styles.
The playing is absolutely on point with this one. Nice work guys!
In my opinion the biggest mistake one can make when having the 12-13-16 setup is tuning the 12 too low. That leaves you with a far too small of an interval between the 12 and 13.
I'll do you one better, I have not one but two 12s a 13 and a 16. It's "interesting" to tune.
You can always just tune the 13 too low as well and they are both right. You can treat it as a 2 up 1 down or a 1 up 2 down depending on your tuning but have the form factor of 2 up either way only with worse positioning because those things are huge. Or even commit to the 13 floor with a clamp off the ride stand.
Thats why most professional working/gigging drummers who dont have a roadie to haul extra drums around and make sure those 2 drums are at a different pitch over a PA System(which is even more difficult than acoustic - without mics) will ditch one of those rack toms or not even purchase both of those rack toms in a kit.....because for the suddle if any difference at all (in an amplified live stage multi-instrument band mix setting) between pitch sounds of those 2 drums is a waste of time, excess space on stage and in vehicle, and also removing one of those drums is one less piece to carry/haul around. The old Charlie Watts/Ringo set is still the standard for those reasons.
13in rack toms are great when you want that low end that a 12 has trouble with without sounding like paper. I run 10,13,16 and 20 sizes recently
Over the last 2 decades, I’ve gravitated to 10, 12, 14 toms and I am able to get good separation. Someone recently gave my an entry level mapex kit with deeper 12 and 13 inch toms and I was thrilled to see I can get a nice separation in the tone. I tend to tune both heads at a similar tension and due to the larger head size and depth they each seem to naturally have their own interval in the mix. Also wanted to mention that I love the videos and always look forward to the new ones. Thanks!!!
Man I cant tell you how much I needed this video. What an eye opener! After playing my electronic kit I bought an acoustic drumkit. I couldnt figure out how to tune my 12inch. I kinda knew what I was looking for but didn't know how to achieve it. I now realized I was expecting a 13inch low tuning sound out of my 12inch rack tom. Im just gonna buy a 13 inch instead!
Thanks to this video, I've found it in my heart to stop hating the 13's in my life by giving them proper space and let them be what they want to be.
I saw orlando drummer (Adam Tuminaro) ranting about 12 toms. Funny to see this less than a week apart lol. Great info as always. Thanks boys!
Dude, you always put out such great content! Love your videos. Thank you! 🙏🏻
Man, I’ve learned so much from you guys, so thank you!
I never used to like 12s as I couldn't get an expensive kit I bought a long time ago to go low enough for my tastes but now I really enjoy my 12, 14, 20 kit, my 13, 16 and 22s and love mixing up the toms in the studio. All about accurate tuning for the drum as mentioned. BTW, the acrolite sounded killer in this episode!
I love your channel, always straight to the point, concise, rich and stylish. And your drums sound so good.
straight to the point, lol
These are fantastic videos. I much preferred the kit tuning spectrum with the 13.
Excellent video guys.Only problem I've had usually comes from my 10# tom wanting to set my snare off.But as ya know you play with it long enough and you learn to find something that sounds good and works.
For me, it's not about the diameter or depth but the difference between the toms. For example, it's hard to get good separation between a 12, 13, 14 combination as their ranges don't give each other space. Thats why I like my 10,12,14,16 setup as I can take each to low, mid, or high tunings without them encroaching on the range of the others.
Hahaha, you're still using those hand drilled heads! Nice!
I think the 12 and 13 both sound awesome low-tuned, but high-tuned only the 13 sounds decent. And of course the 16 inch floor tom sounds amazing. The low-tuned 13 along with the floor tom sounded especially sweet together.
Great video, Sir. Very helpful info, giving me more insight to fit my tuning behavior to the drum.
I've hated 13" toms my entire life just because the one that came with my first kit never sounded good in between the 12" and 16" toms and was physically too deep to position comfortably. 😂
Totally agree!
My thing exactly
Just I've almost always played 12 up & 14 floor tom with 20" kick
Exactly I don't even hate the sound but my bass drum doesn't agree with my 13 tom
For me, a 13 is fine if it’s the only rack tom I have on my kit
Thats exactly my problem right now, i started drumming 3-4 months ago, and my 13" is super deep. Although i like the sound, it means my kit set up in an awkward way.
I have 6,8,10(roto-toms) 8, 12, 13 (up), 16 (floor). 12 & 13 are both very deep power toms, ive been considering cutting them shorter (i could easily cut a proper bearing edge), but im also considering buying a 10" tom to have 8,10,12 up; 13, 16 down, with the possibility of turning the 13 into a 'snom'. though id rather have a 14" snom which can use the same parts as a normal snare. I also worry i'd have too many drums at that point, since i also want to make 2 octobans with steel tubes someday; i prefer the sound of kits with a lot of cymbals as oppose to a lot of drums
I have a 12" tom that is the most resonate tom on my set. On the opposite end I can never get a 13" tom to sit between a 12" and 16". If it's a 13" and 16" set it's easier but a 13" is usually the most troublesome size for me in terms of toms. 13" snares how ever are amazing! All these years I thought I was the only one that couldn't tune a 13"
It's also very defining when you use a cheapo drum kit. I'm a 69 yo resurrected recreational drummer , returning to "playing" after a 50 year hiatus. Retired in 2020 forced by physical disabilities due to spinal issues , my wife gifted me a drum kit at xmas 2018. Watching RUclips videos , learning from Cody and others on line about DRUMS , tuni g, different heads, etc., has educated me and also frustrated me. Using cheapo Gammon drums fir beginners , can be challenging when trying to achieve acceptable notes from tge drums. The kit has 12, 13 and 16 inch Toms. Notwithstanding that the snare was replaced with a DW Design Series 14 X 6.5 purchased used ( whatta difference playing a quality drum), I have replaced the reso and batter heads on the toms 3x. Yes the 13 " is difficult to achieve an acceptable sound, but it seems ( still wrestling with tge difference), that an Evans G2 clear batter, coated Remo ambassador reso yields the "best" sound to my ear. The 12" was easier to get there. The 16" floor tom has been my most challenging drum to tune to accetable sound. Tried the G2 clear batter and same reso, but it seemed difficult , same with Attack ToneRidge Clear . Went back to the G1s and that made a difference and yields a more acceptable sound. I had qualms about "mixing" batter heads on the toms, but figured at the end of the day, it sounds better to me, better resonance , more like Jared's DOOOOO, DOOOOO, reference when tuning toms on Drumeo.
If you think about it the 12/13/16 has always been stupid. it should be 12 14 16. with the 13 being closer in size to the 12 than the 16 it going to need a relative to its size lower tension to sit even between the two and to do that its not doing whats the 12 and16 are.
A year late to the party ! But that GMS at 5:14 , man that sounded good, nice groove Cody 😀
Nice to see your using those custom heads still lol. Never played a 13 but it's on the wishlist. Not until I get that snare from ya lol
Exactly the video I need. Thanks guys!
That GMS sounds great tuned way down... almost like a vintage mahogany Ludwig tone.
great as always,,,
Could you guys do a video on tuning range for a very small kit like, 16 or 14 kick, 8 rack 10 or 12 floor and a ten snare?!?
You guys are the best
A very significant factor here is the actual drum . I have a cheapo Gammon kit gifted to me for xmas gift from my wife in 2018, to allow me to play in retirement. I returned to playing drums after a hiatus of 50 years (played in a garage band in HS). I have been able to tweak the 3 Toms, 12, 13 and 16 inch with 3 different head replacements , watching tuning tips from Cody, and others on line, which I knew nothing about. Recently, I procured (actually was gifted ) a pdp concept maple 10 x 8 rack tom. Whatta diffefence in the sounds achieved and ease of tuning quality products. Came with pdp clear batter and reso heads. The most difficult drum in my kit to tune and achieve an acceptable sound is the 16 " tom. I am using G2s Clear on the batter heads for the 12 and 13" toms, and a G1 clear ( the G2 just didn't sound good) which is producing acceptable sounds and notes.
I don't even play drums but I really enjoy these videos!
i've personally got 12 and 16 toms which work together perfectly for me, but i've had to tune a 13 to fit in between those and ended up just removing it from the kit. no thank you!
Always appreciate your videos and insight! I have definitely heard that before
One of my favorite toms is actually my Gretch 12" 5 lug Catalina. Has so much personality tuned up pretty high. I like that ride. Sounds like a cymbal.
GREAT STUFF GUYS. Wise words as usual.
Excellent video.
My dad still has a cheap 90's "power tom" kit; it's a Pearl Forum with 13×10 & 14×10 rack toms. With the right heads and tuning it sounds semi-respectable but it's def not what you'd ever consider a particularly "responsive" kit.
Growing up as a kid I played that kit for years. I'll never forget the first time I played a more reasonably sized kit, it felt like putting a cheat code on.
The 12 for sure would give me crazy tones. I guess I did what you did as far as finding where it wanted to be, oh and not hitting it so much. Lol. Thanks Mark
I’ve got a sixties Ludwig kit with 12 and 13 inch toms. I only used the 13 for about fifteen years. Tuned up the twelve for a specific sound and it ended up being my favorite even at lower tunings. If I needed to really project at at a certain tuning without mics in a larger space I might use the 13 again.
Made me feel a whole lot better lol.
I have a 13 that is more challenging to tune than the other toms. After you hit it I get the meow sound after and I believe that it could be some sort of factory defect. The reso head is a G1 and batter head is a UV2. I put a little piece of tape on the bottom and it works fine also moon gel on the top at a specific location. I’m still not satisfied with it but at least the meow sound is controlled to a minimum. I do plan on changing all of the reso heads eventually but I’m not in a band or recording so it will work for now. Happy drumming everyone 🥁🪖🤘
Thanks for your thuth and well explaination this channel is deserved to be long live sounds like a drum👏👏👏🤟🏻🤟🏻🥁🥁🇨🇦🇨🇦😁
For me having even sizes is easier to tune the intervals right, because I have 4 toms the most time, but you are right on all the things you're saying.
I love this so much
The Professor was very fond of his 13" tom. I think it may be a question of expectations.
Been having fun with my Sonor Vintage Series 13, which when tuned with the bottom head a little higher sounded woeful no matter what I did. I'd even put it next to my Pearl Decade Maple 13" and used it as a reference (it sounds great bottom head tensioned up a little higher) but the reality is for me (and it's probably lack of talent!) they just respond to tensioning very differently. Both 6mm shells, but different edges, hardware and wood obviously. The Sonor is currently signing like an angel with both heads tensioned the same and is GLORIOUS - but it was quite a head scratching exercise.
I'm in the opposite camp. I've had 7 different kits in my life, three of which had 13" and almost all of which had 12", as well as some 8," some 10" and two 14" rack toms. And I never had trouble getting the 13s to sound good, but have almost always had trouble with the 12s. Never the 8s or 10s, but consistently the 12s. Which, I finally realized, probably means that for whatever reason, either my ears or my brain simply don't like the normal tonal range of a 12" drum. In other words, "it's not you, it's me."
(I also don't like 14s much, either rack or floor, but love 16s, so it's not just that I like smaller toms...although I do tend to gravitate towards them, generally preferring extra definition over extra power and rumble.)
you should get a free app for you phone and measure the fundamental note of your toms after tunning, and see where they are, I have a tunebot and it makes life much simplier. it just tune 4ths or 5ths apart.
Love my 12,13 and 16 set up
I haven't owned a 13" for over 20 years but I just got an INDe set with 12/13 and was a little nervous that I would have problems, but they're perfect. Even with the 14" floor tom, you can tell which drum is which easily.
INDe is one of my top 3 contenders for my next kit. Thoughts on your kit? Any noteworthy pros/cons?
My current Tom set is:
8x8
8x10
8x13
16x16
16x18
Easy to tune set up love your videos keep up the great work. 👍🤟👏
13" toms are best by themselves when you're just playing 1 up.
If you're using multiple toms, it's too difficult to get it "just right", because of the odd size. The 13 and 15" are the only odd sized toms. And who really uses a 15" anymore (except a few select big names, more for showiness imho). I've been doing research for over 2 years now. The problem I've found with the odd sized toms are the depths, when used in combination with other toms. The only reason we have them, is way back in the day, that's the only sizes they made. And it made a great Jazz tom, and the early days of Rock.
Using the rule "for every 2" increase in diameter, increase depth by 1" (1.5-2" max), you end up with the following; 6x6, 8x7, 10x8, 12x9, 13x9.5 (half step), 14x10, 15x10.5 (half step), 16x11, 18x12 and so on. Now look at it from this way across... 6-6=0, 8-7=1, etc.. You get 0, 1, 2, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5 etc.. 13s and 15s are really only a half step between the other toms, but builders typically will treat them as a whole step, ie; 8x7,10x8, 12x9, 13x10, 14x11 and so on. As I described, 1,2,3... now you got 1,2,3,3,3, instead of 1,2,3,4,5. The optimum is to keep the odd sizes out period. Just stay with the even sized toms; 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18. Perfect "even" intervals.
DW, I almost forgot DID create a 23" bass, but it's exclusive to him alone. Not in use in large numbers. But I understand his reason for making it and it does sound nice. It's still part selling tool though, to "one up" the other guys. ;)
You're probably thinking "this guys an idiot, doesn't know what he's talking about", that's okay. You'll figure it out one day. ;)
The odd sized drums should be treated as a half step between the other toms, and the depth should be in 1/2" increment, not a whole. If it's used by itself, then make the depth anything you want. Only if used together with other toms, you're gonna have the problems. Several builders (not the big boys yet) now are offering shells in 1/2" increments. They figured it out too. :)
Hey... when you gonna make that video on those custom heads of yours with the holes through the resos instead of the batters?
i must be lucky as i've never ran into any problems while tuning my toms (10x8, 12x9, 13x10, 14x11, 18x16) as i know what all my drums are capable of and where they happily sit. the only time i've ever ran into a problem is when the heads are dead, the rims were bent/mishsapen or the drums out of round.
ive always liked to start with the biggest drum and worked up because i found in 20+ years of playing and teching for people, if you start with the highest/smallest drum and work down but want a low punchy tuning, you get stuck pretty quick when it comes to the bigger sizes.
For me I've found myself liking a 10" and 16" setup for the past while, I would always use the 12" from my kit but have never been entirely happy with it. It always ends up being too high and resonant or too low and flappy, I've never really been able to hit a sweet spot with it. My 10" however I've found a sweet spot with and I like the separation of the notes between it and my 16" so I just use it.
Also, by the nature of their size, 12 and 13 inch drums tend to be mounted above and close to the top of the bass drum. If too close, it can cause choking problems from not having enough room below the resonant head, which might mislead you into thinking it's a tuning problem when it's not. Try the drum away from bass drum, tune and reposition as necessary.
🤔
With regards to the relationship between sizes, it’s been noted that the 13” is difficult to get tuned in a multi-tom setup where the 3 consecutive intervals are 12”, 13”, and 14”, and especially more so in older, deeper toms. Having that exact interval myself, I can attest to this difficulty. It can be done, but is even more difficult to maintain as the heads aren’t used evenly. The problem is that a 13” likes a range that is so close to the range that both the 12” and the 14” like to sit in, and they blend together too much. My intervals are 10”, 12”, 13”, 14”, 15”, and 16” toms. The 13” and the 15” like to push the smaller toms a little higher, and the larger toms too low (loose). This is where head choice tailored to each tom can improve tuning.
I’ve also seen it recommended to keep a 2” diameter interval between toms to avoid this problem. It certainly helps.
Great video. Just think about Jeff Porcaro’s set up. 10,12,13,14,16 Tom’s... he had a great drum sound.
i have a 12" 13" 14" 16" toms and mine seem to fit in a nice range from each other and sound really nice, i admit the 13" can sometimes be a pain but when you get it right and get used to the way it needs to be tuned they sound great.
I just spent the last two months deciding on the sizes of drums for my next large drum set. I decided that the right tuning of toms is 4ths between them all, except a 5th between last up and first down. I also decided that volume ratio's between drums is best at about 50% increase for a 4th and a 100% increase for a 5th. Strange I know. To that end, decided on: (Dia x Depth) 8x7, 10x7, 12x7, 13x9, 15x13, 18x14, 22x14. Notes: Any drum deaper than 14 doesn not get as much low end on tape. Deaper and harder wood drums sound deeper in the room, on tape, shallow drums are king.
As far as 12" stories... for many years I played a Yamaha Recording Custom kit (purchased in 1988) that was all power toms. This was before all of these suspension mounts existed.
I had no issues with the 10, 14 or 16, all mounted toms... but with the 12 I had severe issues. I could tune it to a beautiful resonant pitch with a perfect amount of sustain and few unwanted overtones, when in my hand. But the second I put it on the tom mount (like I said, attached directly to the shell) the fundamental tone was choked right out of the drum and it took on all sorts of squirrely overtones. Finally, Remo came out with the RIMS mounts and that fixed it somewhat, but for about 5 years I seriously HATED that drum. I kinda still do...
Later, in 1992, I had a custom set of Eames drums made in 10,12,14,15(!) standard-ish depths and mounted the rack toms with RIMS mounts. That 12x9 drum just SINGS and has a very nice wide tuning range.
I've been itching to try graduated size intervals on a large kit, eg 8-10-13-18
Nice and ... i like the Pearl Master Custom(Maple MMX?) you use. I have MMX 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 toms and 22 bass and a 10 picollo. The snare was great but ... not really my thing so i changed that to Ludwig Supraphonic Bronze.I also have a Pearl Session Select jazz kit 12, 12, 14, 18 bass and a matching 14: wooden snare. My opinion about (these) Pearl drums: with other heads, other tuning, other sticks/mallets/brushes/rods/damping you have a wide variety of options that fit in many styles. Pearl is like a cameleon it can adapt to all kind of genres, acoustics and drummers. Hardware is great also when using it often on the road.
You guys gotta sell those holy heads. They are absolutely amazing. You can have all my money, as long as I ain’t gotta do the work 😎
I like a lot of spread in my toms. To me, the ideal 3-tom setup is actually 10" 13" 16". I find that (to me) 10" 12" 16" is the opposite problem that 12"/13" sets have, but that the gap to the 16" is too wide.
I actually used to use the 10, 13, 16 setup when I played more than a 4 piece setup (which is very rare these days). You get the nice resonant high of the 10, the deep lows of the 16, with that 13 filling the space between perfectly. If you want a wide tonal range with multiple voices but don't want to haul a Neil Peart kit around, this is ideal!
That's why I've got 8-10-12-14-16-18-22
The lesson here is: 16" floor toms are awesome.
I used to have issues with a 12" -- I figured out after a while that it was where it was positioned over my bass drum. I think the drum sounded like it wasn't resonating because the vibrations coming out of the bottom were being thrown back into the drum in a weird way. Moving it a few inches over with no change in tuning totally changed the behavior of the drum.
I play a 1999 Tama starclassic performer kit with five toms: 8 10 12 14 16, and the 12 has always been the pain to tune. Finally one time I decided to change the orientation of the mounting bracket and hoop relationship to the shell, just randomly turning it to where the badge doesn’t face out anymore, but the tuning problems were drastically reduced! I’ve gotten much better with tuning but am still stumped by when one lug sounds higher than the rest, yet when you lower it you discover it’s barely hanging on to the end of the thread, so there’s no room to lower it.
Maybe your rim is warped. Take it off and see if it’s flat.
I play a 70s Gretsch Jazz Kit with a 12" tom, 14" & 16" FT and 18" BD. The 12"x8" tom sounds really beautiful, once you've checked it has only 5 lugs per side ;-) and have found its sweet spot - for me, this fits only with both heads tuned to the same note (fiberskyn and clear, both Diplomat).
oh, that is cool, i just wrote somewhere about the middle tom syndrom, which I call it. If you want to hear a drum makers view, I am happy to give it. If you don't, sorry... too late.
The reason why the middle tom often does not sound well is pretty simple: it was not designed to be a middle tom! Let me explain it a bit...
When drums were still acoustic (before 1964, drums usually did not get miked), drum sets usually had only one high and one low tom. If they had two high toms, it usually was either the same tom twice (Moon played 3x 12x8") or they had the same depth. In fact, until today, all other percussion instrumens come in same depth, but different diameter: Congas, Bongos, Timbale,... Why then did the drum set suddenly carry odd sizes, where the smaller drums are shallower, and the arger also get deeper? No, it is not because the depth of a drum makes it deeper in tone - remember, that we can archieve either by tuning, or when tuned with the same tension as a smaller drum, with the diameter. Larger diameter, same tension, deeper tone.
When the beatles hit the scene, a lot of things changed. Everybody wanted to play in a band, and the stages, thanks to Marshall, got a lot louder. So loud, that in fact the drum manufacturers started building drums louder. And how do we make a drum set louder? - Larger diameter, thicker shells, and deeper sizes! When a drum set usually featured an 18 or 20" kick, we now see a 22 as standard; where you had the 14" FT, you got the 16", and the standard 12x8 was replaced with a 13x10. As Snare, steel shells were promising to drive the volume up too.
So you see how now drum manufacturers offered a larger range of drums. Before, if drummers wanted two high toms, they either got two of the same size and depth, or some companies even had a smaller 10" in their catalog. But in the major companies catalogs before 1964, you never saw a set with what we call a standard set up (if you care, I have a complete collection, digitally, of ludwig, premier, pearl, tama... nearly all brochures since the1890 to 2000 for research purpose). Drummers simply used the louder set up, 22/13/16 and added the 12" tom from that older, let's call it acoustic set. Now, when we make a drum deeper, it is not just louder, the sound is different too. As air muffles, it has about 1.3g per liter, you get a dryer, less resonant, more percussive sound from a deeper drum than from a shallower one. Thus it is harder to get the middle tom to sound as warm and tonal and resonant as the smaller one.
For some reason, the look of drums being decending got stuck in our brains and we would swear that it has musical reasons we do this. It was quickly mistaken as giving us lower end, and I hear this myth a lot (it escalated later in even deeper kick drums, for the love of god, drummers would swear they sound deeper too, despite the opposite being true), so nowadays, we just keep building drums that way, even though it makes no sense. And even I am guilty of this; i just again built a batch of about 60 drum sets, and I still have the larger 12" tom about an inch deeper than the 10", simply because it is not always wise being smarter than your customers. Drummers are very conservative, and for some reason, decending tom sizes look right to us, so we do not question that dogma. And a dogma it is.
I should do a video about this... but that means I have to find a clean spot where i can point my camera at, and we are so cluttered right now... jeeeeez...
TL;DR: Drums used to be acoustic, then needed to get louder, and we then got a strange mixture of the loud and the acoustic drums, which obviously was mixed together without any musical intent, and we kept it that way because it looks cool. Gee, even I think it looks better, despite I know better.... thus, the middle tom sucks to tune.
Great video
I love a 9 X 13" rack. Pretty versatile. I've used it as a mid tom between a 10" rack and a 15" floor tom. I've used it as the only rack tom at times, tuned medium. And I've used it as a floor tom with a 10" on top for quieter gigs. I compared the 9 X 13" to a 10 X 12" I have, tuned exactly the same and they were pretty close. No, I'm glad I have a 13" rack.
True. 13 inches might be 33 cm which is an odd number, but 12 inches are 30.5 cm which is even more odd.
There are no "odd sizes" it's all in your head
I used to be a tune-by-ear purist until I got a tune-bot studio. What a game changer for my 12”.
What was getting in your way of tuning the 12" that the Tune-Bot solved for you? Now that you've figured out what works with the Tune-Bot, are you tuning that drum by ear?
@Sounds Like A Drum Great video as always. HAve you thought about doing one on toms with an odd number of lugs...Gretsch Broadkaster for exampleZ?
I've had difficulty with the deeper shelled rack toms not so much the standard depth rack toms ... square sized floor toms can be challenging too ... 14 x 14 and 16 x 16 ... but on all it was a matter of eliminating unwanted overtones where you'd get an undersirable bo-ing [where the drum walked up in pitch from the fundamental] more than a clear throated bong.
I noticed that birch and African mahogany drums like to hang in the lower tunings, at least in my experience. I can get a 10" drum sounding like a comfortable 12" tom, and the same can be said for an 8" sounding like a 10". That's why I'm a weirdo that uses 8", 10", 16" tom setup.
Never had a problem with 13 inch toms. 12’s can be tricky. But that’s always been within a multi tom kit.
I've never liked the sound of a 12" tom with a set but do like them when used seperately on their own kind of like a field drum. Currently I have a 70s Slingerland with a 13x9, 16x14 and 22x14 with an Aceolite or Suprahonic snare drum to pair with the set according to style which are both 14x5. I've been collecting cymbals for a while and have all the even sizes from 10"-24" in Zildjian A , K or Paiste 2002. What I've found to be working nicely for me is to use one crash oriented cymbal and one ride and to tune my 13 with the crash, my 16 with the ride and my snare and bass drum with the hi hats. It seems to really make the set sing and allows me to worry less about drum dial numbers etc...It seems to me that if you pick the proper cymbals for the style you want to play, tune your drums to match those cymbals and play; it seems musically cohesive. Has anybody else tried this technique and or have further advice?
Robert, I'm a little confused... How do you tune a ride cymbal to a drum or a crash cymbal to a drum? Do you figure out according to the pitch of the cymbal what note it is and then try to tune to that note so it resonates better together or something like that is that what you mean? Very interesting
@@polara01, I tune the drums to my cymbals not my cymbals to the drums. Ride cymbal goes with floor tom. Crash with mounted tom and snare and bass drum with the hi hats. The cymbals have a pitch when you give them a medium light crash and I match that pitch on the corresponding drum.
@@robertobrien2903 sounds like a good idea I will experiment with that the thing is each drum has a sweet spot so you might be better off tuning your drums to how they sound and then just going through your pile the cymbals until you find cymbals that would match how you like your drums to sound... but if that works for you and your drums sound good that way then I guess it's all good I just prefer to tune my drums a third, fourth, or fifth apart from each other almost like any musical instrument so it gets a bit tricky if you are a going to tune them to be in harmony with cymbals but I will definitely experiment with this and let you know how it works out
@@polara01 Sometimes I change heads when I switch up cymbals so that sweet spot can change a little bit as well. I alsp choose cymbals that work together in these common intervals you talk about. I'm not trying to play space drums for NASA, I'm trying to make what I have sound as congruent as possible when I pick a group of cymbals to go with the heads I want to use for the music I am playing. I've found that I can keep an entire set of batter or reso heads in one bass drum box so I am just using one set and switch heads and cymbals to fit my needs. I use an Ambassador with the Acrolite and and an Emperor with the Supraphonic mostly and match things up accordingly. One set, two snares and some different sets of heads along with a bunch of cymbals can get most of the sounds anyone would want to hear. I think with one set 13, 16, 22, a group of good Zildjians and Paistes, a set of Ambassadors, A set of Emperors and a set of control sounds with Ambassador resos on the bottom, clear or coated you can make all the sounds needed to sound great in any situation. Use the drum dial to even things out and your ear to perfect it....
I have a vintage Ludwig rocker kit... 14 inch rack and 18inch floor Tom. I’m having such a hard time tuning them. Any suggestions?
Maybe try tuning up the resonant heads quite a bit. Brought my set to live
Nothing is impossible 🙌😁
I had a 15 inch floor tom on my yamaha oak custom, that thing was a dream to tune. Always punchy and low. Only pain was getting heads for it lol
What do you think of 10-13-16 and 20x14 BD for Jazz to rock. I have an all maple shell set tuned for Hard rock and rock. 10-12-14-16 all power toms and 22x18 BD. Looking for an all around set that might even live with single ply heads on the toms.
I have a little kit with a 16x16 floor tom as the kick, a 10" snare, an 8x8 rack and a 10x13 as the floor tom I love the kit, sounds great. I also have a kit where the rack tom is a 10x14 and the floors are 14x16 and 16x18 and the kick is a 14x24. it sounds great too. the 14 is probably tuned higher than the 13, but both drums are within their range and sound perfect within their kits.
I had a 90s Tama rockstar pro with a 13" Tom impossible to tune. I guess that basswood (that they used at the time) with the weird 13"x12" sizes were causes. It was low, yes, but it had uncontrollable overtones.
In comparison, tuning my PDP concept maple is a piece of cake.
I had a cheap 5-piece kit that had 12" 13" 16" toms. Using either the 12" or the 13" as a rack tom in a 4-piece set up sounded great. Playing both of them together never worked out for me.
0:43 did you say “right meow?”
Omg I love this channel 😂
Super informative! I have a kit with fairly shallow rack toms (8x6.5, 10x7 & 12x8) with deep floor toms (14x14, 16x15). It's almost like I have two different sets of toms in terms of how they "feel" when I play them. Have you ever run across a reason a kit might be put together that way? Thanks!
Square sizes (equal diameter and depth dimensions) are quite standard for floor toms these days but not for rack toms. Your configuration is quite common.
I'm not the type to buy a new drum set every 10 years. I bought my set in 1972 & still play it. Toms are 13, 14, & 16. I can use a thick head on the 13 & tension it medium. The 14 is tuned for a nice resonance, low. The 16 is well below the 14.
I've always gotten good tuning with this trio.
Conclusion: You won't get that fusion sound with 12" so just get a 10". In the other hand, 12" is perfection for Jazz.
I am using 12 13 16 i love how sound 13" and 16" i am using evans G2 coated. For rock drumming is great.
I am playing a 10x10, 11x13 and a 16x16. I love the 3 inch separation! I use Remo clear Emperors for batter heads and Remo clear Ambassadors for resonant heads.
What are the bearing edges on the 12". Thanks and please 🙏
I have a Slingerland set with 13x9 rack, two 15x12 floor toms and a 24” bass. Weird sizes but sound great.
The 13 sounds awesome
nicko mcbrain, phil collins and neil peart all played odd sizes and they all sounded very good.