Does finish matter? Silver plate vs Lacquer on trumpets
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 19 май 2022
- See more about these trumpets here: jeanpaulusa.com/r?id=89n9rt
DISCLAIMER: This is an affiliate link, which means that if you click on one of the product links and buy something from the Jean Paul website, I may receive a commission.
Become a member to get early access:
/ @trenthamilton
Donate: trent.nz/donate.html
Become a patron: / trenthamiltonnz
Send me stuff!
POBox 5107
Wellington 6140
New Zealand
Get some Merchandise! shop.spreadshirt.com/TrentHam...
Join me on Facebook: / trenthamiltonnz
Join me on Twitter: / trenthamiltonnz
If there is a difference, its incredibly slight. And when playing in a concert hall/in a band, any difference will get drowned out. So just go with the instrument that feels the best to you.
And what looks best to the audience, so silver ftw
@@NFStopsnuf
Hot pink
I think the difference is far more in the mind of the player than it is in the ear of the listener. Which is fair enough. If an unlacquered instrument makes you feel better about your playing, that is a real and valuable result.
I strongly agree with you. Take what you prefer, whether it comes from the instrument or not.
I honestly prefer silvered instruments, feels more, natural!!
When I was selecting a trumpet years ago, I went through everything in the store in the "pro" category, including multiples of the instrument I ended up with(which was actually th first one I was provided). I can certainly agree with variances of "identical" instruments. I also preferred silver over laquered brass due to the slight difference in the sound that I liked better. The difference was very, very slight. Recently, I bought two intermediate grade instruments, same make/model/brand, only difference being the color(silver vs laquer). Again, slight differences that I only notice if I'm really choosing to get very granular.
that Gold and silver trumpet is gorgeous
Just listening from my phone, the silver trumpet seemed to be a little more open, or brighter. I tend to agree with 'Shogun' who commented that playing in a larger brass ensemble would obfuscate the sound. However, using the same horn in a smaller brass ensemble (quintet or smaller) or in a smaller orchestra, might allow the difference to be heard.
I believe the lacquered trumpet had a slightly softer sound, perhaps due to resonating slightly less. I also couldn't help but notice that the silver-plated trumpet was tuned a bit flat compared to the lacquered one.
I haven't watched any of your videos for a while, and I just wanted to say that you look great! You look a lot healthier and it's great to see.
Your back-to-back comparison was very well done. I heard no difference.
Renold Schilke said: Silverplating is thinner than lacquer and plating (silver or gold) allows the metal to resonate better whereas lacquer tends to deaden the tone
For me its always about the feedback you receive as you're playing, not what other people say. Keep up the good work brother.
Intonation was lower on the silverplated instrument, which has nothing to do with plating. Although the silver sounding brighter is consistent with differences in finish, the silver one seemed to be newer and so is not identical. Otherwise, the microphone is limiting and inferior to what can be heard with the naked ear.
I went to a music store/repair shop recently that had several pro instruments that they were selling, including several pro level trumpets.
The specific examples that I tried were a vintage Selmer radial trumpet that was finished in lacquer, A vintage Bach Stradivarius number 37 finished in silver plate, and a semi vintage F. Besson Kanstul that was also finished in silver plate. I played all three of those examples on a schilke 13a4a mouthpiece.
It could have had something to do with either the overall designs of the instruments or maybe even possibly the age differences and how old they were, but I did notice a difference between the lacquered trumpet compared to the two silver plate trumpets as far as tone. I did feel like the silver vibrated a little more freely and gave a bit brighter and more sparkly of a sound.
I don't think I'm going to experience that with every single trumpet that I try in the future, but that's just my experience
You've lost souch weight since the last time I watched one of your videos, well done man you're doing a great job 👍👍👍
Not long after buying my Yamaha YTR 232 which has the lacquer finish I saw another YTR 232, silver plated, for sale in a local music store which has rooms in which instructors teach students how to play various instruments. I asked the store manager if a room might be available for a few minutes and if I could borrow the silver trumpet to do a comparison of the sound. He got me set up and I played each trumpet going back and forth on the same bit of music and using three different mouthpieces for each test. I had no way of discerning or judging any differences other than my own hearing. My judgment matches what you said here, I thought the silver horn had a very slightly brighter sound. I don't think the difference would be noticed by anyone in any rehearsal or performance setting.
I was JUST deciding between these exact two trumpets, what superb timing
You look great dude!! Thanks again for all the videos.
I listened to this without headphones, so there may have been things I missed out in due to not listening so intimately
However from what I heard, I actually preferred the lacquered horn. I cannot place exactly what I liked better but I do know I was slightly more happy hearing you play the first time
I agree. The harmonic makeup of the two is fairly different. More mid-low presence in the lacquered version, although the resultant “shrillness” (not that bad, just can’t think of a better term) of its silver counterpart may just be irritating the mic a bit. The lacquered trumpet is probably having its frequencies naturally boosted by the mic because it sounds less bright and piercing.
The lacquered horn had a smoother sound that I prefer. The silver horn had a slight bite to the sound. Well done!
Wow! Looking fresh Trent!
I really like both kinds of lacquer. I only have one brass instrument but I have played someone else's silver lacquered Trumpet and I loved it
Plated trumpet sounded very slightly "thinner" towards the end of the phrase. I tested out two identical used (but near mint) John Packer JP274 Euphoniums recently. One was lacquer, the other silver plate. The silver one was so much harder to play, hard to describe, but just couldn't produce the warmth of sound that I could with the lacquer one. Went with the lacquer one, beautiful warm sound and a couple of hundred quid cheaper as well. Win/Win :-)
I could maybe hear a slight difference. The silver one might be a tiny bit brighter. I like both sounds.
I recently bought a “vintage” (70’s) silver King 3B….basically because I like 3B’s and wanted a silver one. I’ve been comparing it to my “also vintage” (60’s) lacquered 3B. Some days I hear a difference and some days I don’t! The same thing happened with this video when I watched it several times. Sometimes I heard a difference….sometimes not. This is a really difficult question. In my (trombone) situation, I’m leaning towards the silver being ever so slightly brighter, especially when I try to get a little more “bite” out of it.
I recently stumbled over some of you older videos and I would like to congratulate you on your weight loss.
I prefer raw brass. Fuller timbre, nicer feel, no plastic shavings as the instrument ages, and over time, a beautiful patina develops.
I'm over 70 now. In years past I've played with guys that played with old dance bands from before WW2. These guys used instruments that they had stripped the lacquer from because they thought it made them sound better. On the humorous side, some of them were unable to play without vibrato.
Great video! Do you have any experience with playing unlacquered brass instruments? Would love to see you do a video about it. From my experience They resonate really well with lower notes if it's thick brass. However unlacquered instruments tend to leave annoying smelly black marks on your hands after playing them for a long time.
Thank you for making this video, this is something I've been wondering about. I could not hear any difference between the two instruments.
Given a choice, I'll always buy a silver-plated instrument in preference to a lacquered one. I have six brass instruments (so not in Trent's league), four of which are silver-plated. When I bought my trumpet, I wasn't in the market for a silver-plated instrument and there don't seem to be silver-plated French horns, at least not in the price range I was looking at.
However, my preference is just because I like the way silver looks and because I like it as a material, even if the plating is only a few atoms thick. I don't imagine that there's much if any difference in the quality of sound.
Yeah, I feel it's mostly based on feel and preferences. Both also look absolutely beautiful! I love nice dark gold brass, but the silver varieties also look extremely classy and extravagant! Love em all, honestly! 😅😆😁👍🏻🎺
I'd like to see a showdown between similar models from different manufacturers like Getzen, Bach, Schilke, Yamaha & Besson. It would be interesting to hear if there are any major differences, or just subtle.
What a ridiculous question, Trent. The Finnish, do indeed, NOT matter.
Always knew the Fins were up to no good
Don't dismiss the Finns - tough and resilient folks.
They will when they join NATO.
They make really nice fish filleting knives and produce the best off-road motorcycle racers in the world.
You are unaware of sisu.
Another potential source of the supposed difference (that I fail to hear) might be how clean the inside of the trumpet was.
I'm a bass trombonist who plays a lacqued Yamaha Custom and Yamaha don't give the option for the silver plate in my model. I can honestly say that I couldn't really hear a difference between the two trumpets...I personally think that when you get to the extremes of quality in whatever finish, the difference is so slight that it's inaudible. Also, when you hear the very top brass musicians across the world, whatever they play, they sound so very similar with no discernible difference. I'm thinking about Wynton Marsalis with his completely weird trumpet that he makes sound like any other high class make, let alone the finish.
I feel like I heard a slightly brighter tone quality from the plated one, but it was so slight that it could just be me looking for differences where there are none.
For how little settle difference there is, I guess it could come down to which looks better easier for one to keep it looking shiny and easier on ones wallet.
I could hear a difference, subtle, but there!
If I could afford such an instrument, I would buy something like that for the looks and the sound!
I had my eyes closed and was waiting for "and now for the silver plated one" and realized you had already played it! I heard no difference
(Though I've been a follower for quite a while, I haven't been watching a lot of the recent videos, sorry) but I have to say, you're looking absolutely fantastic my guy!
Very creative way to advertise one of the the companies sponsoring you. I honestly commend you for that. Sounds like something I would do. The true answer is plating doesn’t matter either silver or gold because it’s applied so thin to the brass to make a real difference. So, raw, silver, and gold plating should sound almost alike. If the lacquer is applied on thickly it can what I call make the sound dull instead of warmer or darker. It will sound smaller and take the shine off the sound. But to get a true dark sound without the sacrifice of volume and shine one needs to look for a copper bell, change the taper of the bell, change the leadpipe, and the most important… the mouthpiece. Bells do make a difference. From brightest to warmest: yellow brass, gold brass, copper, for example.
I've tried to be as transparent as possible about Jean Paul. They've never paid me to make a video, but they have supplied me the instruments for free to review. If someone buys something from them using my link, I may earn a few percent as commission.
As far as using their instruments specifically for this video, and the reason why I've never made this video before now, is that I've never had two almost identical instruments but with different finishes on them.
@@TrentHamilton it’s all good, brother! I fully endorse and commend you and your work. You are a true blessing to the brass community.
What's your opinion on the different valves out there in terms of design concept and feel? I've only been able to play on trombones with rotary or axial flow (Thayer) valves and I'm curious about the Tru-Bore and Hagmann valves
Marginal difference between both. Silver is a bit brighter, lacquer a bit warmer. But only like a 1% variance. The style of music being played, ambient temperature, mouthpiece, musician skills, musicians natural tone and playing style, etc. would all cause more of a change. The difference would only be noticeable, and of potential value, to a pro player and only if they were looking for a specific sound. A top notch player could make either one of these instruments sound bright or warm depending on the sound they were after. My first Trumpet teacher (Max Goldberg) back in 1976 was world famous during the war era and could make even the cheapest and most poorly made Trumpet (e.g. my Lark) sound amazing. Great review 🤓👍
The excerpt you played reminds me of a couple bars from the Beatles 'yesterday' (I said something wrong now I long for yestersay) very neat
That's exactly what it is.
I closed my eyes during the test, and I could not even tell you switched instruments.
Very slight difference. Both sound very nice. Where were they manufactured?
Great comparison. My preference is the silver, slight difference that it is, whether from the silver or not.
I would agree with the tech that the silver plated inst. is very slighly more brilliant and projective in sound. I think a more interesting result is from the outstanding bands from Japan. Almost all from beginners to pro level players play Yamaha silver plated trumpets. However for trombones the preferred finish is lacquer-likewise for horns. However for baritones the silver finish seems to be preferred. this may be more of a manufacturer provision-most students (and pros play Yamaha and that compnay seems to favor selling as described above in terms of finish.
I had no idea JeanPaul trumpets were located in Miami Florida.
What about the difference in maintenance between the two finishes on trumpets? Specific requirements for each?
I wonder how much changing the raw meterials would affect the players sound. Say between brass and solid silver. I play flute and changing from a plated to solid silver is noticeable,
it does affect a lot. Adams makes euphoniums that have a sterling silver bell as an option and from what I heard, the difference is *very* noticeable.
Well, I’d say it would in the sense that silver plating will tarnish over time and needs a lot of upkeep.
Listen on descent speakers I could hear a slight difference between the two. I am sure a lot of the difference is lost in RUclips compression. For me the lacquered trumpet is a touch mellow compared to the silver plate.
I do prefer a silver plate trombone for more jazzy pieces. When in an ensamble bleeding the tones is important. So if depends there on what you are playing against or if you are soloing.
Personally I prefer silver plate or Stirling silver bells with the rest lacquered.
please give me the piccolo trombone in the background 😂
Thos who can hear fleas coughing will hear that the silver trumpet is slightly brighter. But it could happen that when you change the instruments several time that these tiny difference will disappear.
Also, which is ‘best’: trumpet, trombone or french horn … ? 😊
I thought the plated trumpet sounded a bit brighter. Whether that's due to the finish, or something else, I wouldn't venture to guess.
I feel like there are a difference, but there’s no way I can tell where the difference comes from.
I wonder if the weighted bottle cap makes difference. (Not sure if it’s around but it was a bit of hype a few decades ago in my country.) Mouthpiece with different weight had significantly different feel, but I wonder if that of the instrument itself gives any discernible difference either in the feels on lips or in sounds it produces.
I know it’s not really my place to be commenting on this but I’m a RUclips commenter and I don’t care but I used to watch you a bunch and stopped after I stopped doing band but stayed subscribed, you look great man it looks like you’ve taken a lot of effort into your body and like good shit proud of you!!!
You... Stopped doing band?? What is wrong with you???
Friends don't let friends stop doing band.
You mentioned doing research and finding both online posts AND studies that confirmed the information presented in this video. Can you please link the studies from which you obtained the information for this video? I am very interested in what was said in a scientific publication about this. Cheers.
Personally, I thought that the silver and gold plated trumpet did have a little more umph in the notes, but that simply could have just been the variations in the intonation/tone/tounging, what have you. I think the only way you could truly tell there was a difference was if one had jagged shards of metal in the bell or something.
Where can I buy the second trumpet (tr-870) it’s not on the website
what's the average bore size for trumpet, flugelhorn, and trombone?
Do you also build "Drehventiltrompeten", I'm sorry I dont know the english Word...
I don't think anyone could pick out the order they are played in and even the change in instruments will go by unnoticeable. Psychologically, I tend to think too that shiny silver is a bit brighter and lacquer a bit warmer. For the public it's all, "a trumpet" ;-)
Can you trombone bach megatone vs denis wick heavy top?
I have a silver trumpet because I prefer the way it looks.
They didn't sound similar, but I liked both and can't say, what the difference was.
I hear no difference. If there is a difference that anyone can perceive it must be extremely slight. So, I’d say they’re functionally the same. In a band or ensemble of any sort there would be no way to hear such a small difference anyway.
It is quite a small difference, but there is a difference if you listen closely enough. But both of them sound very traditionally "trumpet", and especially in a band setting, no listener in the audience will perceive a large difference in quality, both of those horns are really good horns, manufactured with quality. Therefore the biggest difference you will hear from the trumpet comes from the musician themselves. Give either of those horns to Dizzie Gillespie and I guarantee we'll hear a difference between him and our friend Trent
Is there a maintenance difference between silver & lacquer?
So i have a question. What is the best french horn for a under 1000 dollar budget? I play trombone and trumpet so i have experience with brass instruments. I am just wondering what the best under (1,000 U.S.D) french horn is. Thanks! I am also open to other commenters opinions!
I go for the silver plated instrument as I think it looks better.
Absolutely no difference! Also you have an awesome sound on the trumpet 🎺
Loved your video, but what the hell is that instrument in the mid-right if the shit, just under your logo? Genuinely interested to find out
Schalmei. You'll find my review on it here: ruclips.net/video/p2d-6SY2Uqg/видео.html
The difference is closer to choosing black or brown leather shoes than anything practical. One shoe _may_ be naturally a bit more pliable than the other, but it's so small it's a non-factor when compared to appearence and build quality.
Okay I did notice that the Silver-plated trumpet it seemed like it was a little bit better with the high range but otherwise I could not tell a difference
An explanation to what I posted so long ago is in the high range. You can hear it's a little brighter. But in the lower ranges, they are both basically the same.
One thing that muddies the waters here is the marketing material pumped out by the manufacturers. They'll say things like "This horn has a bright sound thanks to its silver plating" but then in relation to another instrument say "the silver plate gives this instrument a particularly warm tone."
Bottom line: the only thing you can trust is your own ear.
Very miniscule difference in my opinion, I like the laquer due to easier maintanance.
I couldn't tell the difference. Perhaps a blind test ? (I remember that you did it in some other videos before)
Are silver trumpets plated with actual silver or is it the mixture of nickel, copper an zink? I don't think for my ~1000€ Yamaha YTR-4335G actual silver was used because it seemes too cheap then.
As I understand it, it's usually actual silver. But the amount of material used is very small because of how thinly it is deposited in the plating process.
Sure it affects acoustic properties subtly, but with all the other ways a horn's tone can be colored, the difference is arguably negligible. Finish is much more about its visual aesthetics, they are all nice, but silver holds up the best.
I can immediately tell a difference the silver plated trumpet had a more brighter sound while the lacquered trumpet had a more darker sound
Very little difference. I prefere the silver plate silver p. Not brighter but resonate better. The core appear identical. I do not know if worth the money...
What I can say is that silver plated need more constant cleaning that lacquer due stains formed in the exterior part, the sound both are amazing.
this is the only problem I have with my silver saxophone- it has started tarnishing something fierce, and it is such a pain to polish to maintain the shiny and fresh look. Luckily for me, I quite like the look of tarnished silver
@@brandonvaughn1200 this product is amazing and long last a ton: W. J. Hagerty Hagerty 10080 Silversmiths' Silver Polish, 8
There is a slight eq difference; prefer the unlaquered one in this cf; not qualified to say what’s causing it, exactly! 🤷🏻♂️ Could be partly psychological manifestation via one’s playing/expectations, along with the material, the finish, etc.
Some players have sweat that eats lacquer ferociously and then starts to eat the brass. Silver plated instruments last a lot longer for such players.
Can we ad lacquer to silver?
When using airpods, no difference. With my reference headphones, there was a very slight noticeable difference. Although I've heard silver and lacquered trumpets in person and the difference is a lot more audible
No difference but I agree same, same horns can have slight differences. If anyone can hear the difference in a blind test I doubt it. Especially if it is done in a brass ensemble for instance.
I honestly was a little disappointed by the silver and gold plated trumpet. It looked so nice, but the sound was just ok. I have heard you play other trumpets that made me want to buy them
There is a difference. Wrether it will be notacible in a brassband or orchestra, I doubt.
Dude I literally pick silver because it looks better.
I heard a *miniscule* difference, but not enough to clearly tell them apart.
I closed my eyes to listen better and didn’t realize that you had switched instruments halfway through. I couldn’t tell any difference. Differences in sound due to variations in the player’s player’s technique more than cancel it out
I've always thought instrument materials is mostly bs. Maybe for clarinet and oboe the grain on the inside (versus plastic) affects the sound by a small amount but for everything else I believe it is a "music industry widely accepted scam."
The high note sounds more bright and beautiful on the silver. Not a little bit actually, if you ask me. But it might be your playing though gg
A blind study might help. First listen with your eyes closed. Then an assistant could hand a blind folded and white gloved Brent, a random choice of trumpet.
I could not tell the difference. Howerver, the silver laquered trumpet was a tad brighter than the gold laquered trumpet.
Closed my eyes, didn't realize that you had switched instruments halfway through the melody. I prefer the usability of silver plating - longer lasting, easier to care for. I have nothing against lacquered instruments, and own several. *I do not like nickel plated instruments. They are below even unplated, unlacquered, raw brass, for me. At least raw brass takes on that quaint patina after a while. Nickel plating gets those awful looking pits over time. And it dulls, and is much more difficult to polish. Nickel plating just looks... tired, after a while. Again, this is only in terms of usability, and how easy it is to care for. As far as I can tell, they all play relatively equally. The same goes for mouthpieces. I don't like nickel plated mouthpieces, which many are. Silver, FTW. Gold plated mouthpieces are also excellent.
Just spit-balling here: but I think that, in the old days, lacquer went on a lot thicker than whatever they use to lacquer instruments today. I feel like there's no real difference between modern lacquered and plated horns, but I honestly do think I notice it when I play vintage instruments. Not sure if it's a difference in application or just the kind of lacquer that's used. Again, no real evidence other than anecdotal experience.
btw: I play a gold-plated '52 Olds Mendez, because it plays great and it's the prettiest trumpet I've ever seen. No shame in just liking the aesthetics of a horn - that's a part of performance too, after all.
Ooooh, an Olds Mendez. Those are super gorgeous! I don't blame you for liking them. I'd love to get my hands on one someday.
the laquered sounds ever so slightly more 'flat' in tone but not in pitch imo.
I preferred the silver plated instrument. Personally, I've found lacquer to be more sensitive to my body chemistry; removing the finish and exposing the raw brass. Silver plate seems not to be impacted. I always thoroughly wipe my instruments after playing.
Silver resonated better to me