I think sexism is a deep thread of justification for the fixation on gay marriage, too. John Larson mentioned the fear of two men having a marriage where neither is the clear head of the family, but even more dangerous from the perspective of Mormon theology would be, to my mind, a lesbian marriage. They are scared to have their members see marriages thrive with a complete lack of anyone with a Y chromosome. Because when a heterosexual non Mormon marriage does well, you could at least say that even a man without faith has what they consider to be the intrinsic leadership capabilities of his gender. For women to handle life together well in the complete absence of a man shows that women have the same degree of intrinsic value and ability. Which undermines their argument that women are a complement to men and not their equal. Which in turn undermines their very cosmology. Mormonism cannot handle gender equality. It utterly crumbles in the face of it.
I’ve been saying this for a decade. The purpose of high demand religions is to subjugate women. That purpose is thwarted by same-sex marriage because it reveals the lies constructed by religious doctrine. That’s why evangelicals, Mormons, etc. flip out about same-sex marriage. It’s a threat to men’s opportunity to effectively use religion to accumulate and wield power.
Sound solid startling revelation. Telling it like it is. All four of you were wonderful but John Larsen does not mince words and hits a home run every time he is on. Such an important episode. Shout out to Maven who does her magic behind the scenes.
So.. when I was being physically abused so badly during my second marriage .. and went to the bishop for support .. and I explicitly asked if I could be placed somewhere safe in an undisclosed haven my explosive husband would never know .. I was promptly put in my place. I was told in no uncertain terms, that my husband was not capable of such abuse , and my bishop stated his divine inspiration revealing how he knew my husband and I had been brought together through divine intervention. Behind closed doors, I was being choked and thrown down stairs, and pulled around by my hair, and spit on because some lady co worker warned my loving hubby it was evident I was just a gold digger. I mean why else would a younger attractive woman be so into him. Then, I went to the stake President and severely scorned for not supporting a church leader who was called of God .. and I needed to go home and support the priesthood. This of course, was the shelf breaker for me. Anyway, I realized as the years have gone by … that it is all about the protection of the institution, vs the individual. “ It is better that one man perish, than a nation dwindle and die in unbelief.” Adding fuel to the fire .. aka .. pursuing punishment for MR. brother white collar, temple recommend holding husband of mine.. and making certain lower form 😢 accusatory woman .. being provided an advocate, a support system, a safe haven.. could foster a breakdown of the system. So a few hapless waifs must fall by the wayside.. like a few apples from the harvest..
So, so sorry you went through this! It's horrific and your church SHOULD have had your back. I'm sorry you found yourself without support and obviously you've left; I'm so glad you found freedom from everything that was holding you down and back. People don't realize how backwards this church really is. The way women are treated in Utah, and the way LGBTQ people are treated, is beyond reprehensible. I could provide a lengthy list of misogynist crap I dealt with as a professional, non-LDS woman living and working in that state. While I was raised LDS, and understood this corporation posing as a church, it didn't make it any easier to cope. The religion was a daily thing I dealt with. Whether it was my male employees not believing they had to "subject themselves" to me as their boss, or being asked what ward I was in during interviews, or being told by my LDS bishop doctor that I needed my husband's permission to have a hysterectomy (for CANCER that was SPREADING) and only got the hysterectomy because my husband was dead. I said elsewhere in the comments that when my grandson came out as trans, our entire family moved out of state. Based on what we had been put through because of this church, we knew he wouldn't survive growing up in Utah. His divorced parents, his aunts and uncles, his grandparents and great grandparents all relocated and his great grandma quit going to church. You were victimized by this as much as you were by your husband, who grew up believing and knowing he was superior to you. It's disgusting. I'm so sorry you dealt with this patriarchal crap in such a horrific way. Love to you.
@@TheForestCrone thank you sooo much for your support and empathy! I was born into an abusive environment with a very narcissistic, authoritarian father, and an incredibly naive, submissive mother;whom I felt I had to parent. I am finally living out my childhood and reparenting myself 😊. I shared only one traumatizing experience out of many. I vowed not to make the same mistake my mother did, and it’s haunting how subconscious conditioning works. I think I may finally have a handle on it, although I am currently trying to get a protective order against the winner of all the narcissistic men I’ve associated with.. I think he was the one to help me finally learn my lesson ! Of course I have adrenal fatigue and migraines since he got out of jail. The friends I am staying with we’re supposedly helping me to be protected from him upon his release, but it turns out I was set up and they are very loyal to their friend of 30 years. They have known me 3 yrs.. Somehow that means they are loyal to him first. Everything I shared with them, my history, secrets, passions, fears, goals, morals, all down the drain and replaced by his smear campaign. My so called friend tried to take me to a mental hospital last week, because how could I be so upset over a man just being kind? They actually believed him! Of course, in actuality, he went into a narcissistic rage when I asked where he put my phone charger after an OCD spell lol.. going through my personal belongings under the guise of “helping me.”.. assessing items worth stealing .. which he of course did. He went into a rage that consisted of how dare I accuse him of stealing, and after all his help , why don’t I look for it! And ultimately I was a lazy f n C word who made up my migraines .. then throwing the full garbage can across the kitchen .. and I promptly kicked him out. Alas .. he was able to find validation and comfort in the woman upstairs.. far from the evil, unhinged Eileen. I’m really at peace .. but do experience deep sadness at times. And I totally get the LGBTQ challenge as well. My son Spencer came out about 6 years ago. He tried to be the perfect LDS son, hiding his suicidal ideations from me abs his father .. he even served a mission in the Philippines. But shortly after his return, his authentic self broke free. He is such a sweetheart, kind and creative, and empathic. He is a happy, dating graphic designer in Cali now; no linger LDS. Anyway .. thanks again ! Take care
The best thing I ever did was realize that there’s something very wrong about ANY man who thinks I need to change or repent or confess my “sins” to them. Stewardship, priesthood leader, etc are false concepts made by men and imposed upon us by men. I love men, but I’m not subservient to anyone. Period.
John Larsen! As a millenial with socialist ideals, I appreciate and support your input. The issues and points you bring up and moreso even your viewpoint on it all, is so refreshing and important. I have been listening to Mormon Stories for a year or 2 now. But with them or on your own, I love to hear you and your work. Thanks for all you do.
Love you guys! Thanks for the great convo! Eta: John L, thank you for bringing the Amicus Briefs and their cont3nt into the limelight tonight. I agree that money and lawyers show the values of an organization far better than the stated values. What a sham. I really am seething angry at the church most of the time at 1 year out of the church.
Carah comments about 1.14 minutes are exactly how I feel and felt. I realised decades ago that the safety of my children and I was not the church's priority.
Sam's comment, 1:45:16, nailed the church's motivation imo. Gender roles are incredibly important to the church's survival. What a terrific episode wherein all of you contributed so significantly. Props to John Larsen for being such a compassionate badass.
I knew you were real people. There's a reason I like ALL of you. You're good, good people. IMO, that's the definition of Progressives - Just good people wanting the best for everyone and the planet.
I brought up the tunnels with a friend some years ago, and I understood you have short cuts and golf carts for the elderly suits, which is all of the 15. But a short cut in a tunnel between the lawyers and the Corporation? I know the meat of this episode is not about tunnels, but there is so much that never sat right with me. Thank you for bringing so much John Larson. I'm on my second listen, well worth it! 😊
I am glad John Larsen addressed how the lds church may view breast augmentation for folks versus breast removal for trans men, as well as the case involving a trans boy wanting to use the restroom that corresponds with his gender. I think there needs to be more coverage of the topic of trans issues in the context of the lds church by folks (such as John) who are aware of the current best practices and accepted peer reviewed research on trans health. I think it is great that Mormon Stories and others have covered gay issues and the lds church, but there really needs to be more attention brought to trans issues as well, especially given the current media attention and misinformation being spread, even recently by an ex-Mormon RUclipsr. Great John Larsen episode, as usual. 😊
When I was on my parents DMBA church-owned insurance company 15 years ago, they made me prove through my doctor that I required birth control for medical reasons. At least back then, they were doing audits on insurance billing codes and such.
I enjoyed John's rant about states' rights. I consider states' rights to be a potential (often, but not always) red flag in a discussion. If someone starts talking about states' rights, I usually think, "Uh oh, this is a potential red flag. What immoral or unethical thing does this person want to defend with states' rights?"
True! And In most cases where people cite “states rights” they are advocating for states to be able to restrict individual rights. Ask those same people if they believe in “states rights” to restrict free speech, gun rights, or freedom of religion.
@@solis44 Questioning another American's gun rights... You sir/madam are an American that likes to walk on the wild side! I bet you drive around without wearing your seatbelt! /s
Would TSCC changing home/visiting teaching to “ministering” perhaps let them show at a later point if needed, that they technically do let women minister?
"Prophet sharing = Profit sharing" should be a movement within the Church. The Church invests money coming from the membership, makes a profit on those investments over and above what is needed to fund the church activities. Why shouldn't there be a dividend, or profit sharing, in this corporation? Think of how effective this would be in recruiting new members! "Joining the Mormon Church is an investment that pays off, not a burden". And who would leave a church and lose such a big investment? Larsen, again, is educating us about legalities and it's much appreciated. I lived in the Marshall Islands for four years where everybody is Christian, but there is a reluctance to get married in the church because it was seen as "permanent" as opposed to the traditional marriage where parents were in control of who their daughters married. If a man abused his wife, her parents would order her to leave him and return home. Traditional marriages were strictly family affairs, and this was probably true in many cultures.
Hi Harlan, Or they could use it for what it was intended and feed the hungry, cloth the poor, house the homeless, help people with medical bills and essentially serve humanity! But they would have to alter.their objective from being the richest church in the world to actually following the teachings of Jesus, but where is the bragging rights in that!!! Actually helping the poor is a burden to the Mormon Churches objective ... World dominance! From the corporate perspective it makes perfect sense! From the spiritual perspective... They have lost their way!
@@sidvicious2845 Hi Sid! You're right....of course. Jesus was asked how to identify a prophet, and he said to look at their fruit. A good tree can only bear good fruit, and a bad tree can only bear bad fruit. So people have to decide for themselves whether the fruit of the LDS prophets is good fruit or bad. People need to have the freedom to eat bad fruit and call it good. For me, some of the criteria for making such a judgment is whether the fruit has the taste of honesty, truthfulness, compassion, generosity and love for all people.
Hi Harlan, The wonderful thing about freewill is we learn from our mistakes which we seem to learn more from! We all have the right to make mistakes! Unfortunately in this case, a lot of wonderful people suffer because religious leaders choose money over service to humanity! And as Jesus said... Those leaders have their reward!
@@sidvicious2845 We all learn from suffering, even the wonderful people. Children are all wonderful, but they also need to mature through the good and the bad things which life throws at them. Religions cannot stop the suffering, but they should provide the community of loving people so that we're not alone. Feeling alone is one of the worst sufferings.
Life is a school and suffering one of it's greatest teachers! The word for compassion in German is "mitlied" which translates as shared suffering! Participating in the suffering of another, to give them the strength to endure! As Martin Luther King said... "It's cruel to tell a man to pull himself up by his bootstraps ... Who has no boots! Jesus once said, they speak of me with their lips but their hearts are far from me! I'm sure Jesus will know where it is and isn't appropriate!
Thank you...this episode was epic. The four of you bring so much knowledge and insight to the conversation... and another layer of the onion falls away.
I attended Bob Jones University during 1982-1983. Couldn't stand it. I begged my parents to let me come home after 3 horrific semesters. Yes, the ban on inter-racial dating still existed back then and I thought it was terrible; although I didn't know about that rule until I was enrolled there. Yes, they only changed things because they were pressured by media and wanted to keep their tax exempt status. So glad to get out of that school and I ended up graduating from Eastern Mennonite University in Virginia.
Very helpful episode. Can anyone help me find the Oaks talk where he mentioned if a family member enters a gay marriage they nay visit but don’t expect to stay at the house, etc. I remember it but can’t find the actual talk.
Yes, Sam is absolutely right in that gay (or bi) people threaten the gender roles and that is one of the foundations for the church and for the patriarchy.
The taco comment from jake was about paying Carah to eat. In a way previous episode Carah said something about Taco Bell when getting paid so it was a reference to that.
59:00 Is there any chance that the change of Home Teaching to Ministering would allow them to classify every member employee as a minister, and therefor covered under the ministerial exemption? Any thoughts on whether that position would be upheld legally?
My family insists they have agency and don't agree with certain things, like discrimination. However, they all are temple recommend holding "perfect" people. Talk about irony!!!
Oh please, please get Greg Matsen (cwic media) to come on the podcast. Nothing would make me happier than hearing his answers to any questions you might pose and him linking every issue back to CRT.
John Larsen - I think you are a saint. You should not listen to mindless mormons. Most mormons are completely illiterate about the church and the Gospel of JC.
1:23:57 I had an argument with a family member who was a bishop's wife because she whole heartedly believed "the gays" shouldn't be able to adopt and that it would be better if the kids are in abusive or neglectful households with nonbelievers than be adopted by a kind gay couple... because "being gay is abusive to others." Said family member actively pretends her gay brother was never born.
Talking about the votes in Utah. Went to a local primary. There were only 200~ish people expected to show up for my district. My vote literally counted as a percentage point. And Mormons are so encouraged to vote. Of course the legislature is Mormon
Just to note, amicus briefs are not only for the purposes of allowing wealthy, politically powerful people to influence the courts. Of course that happens. But you’ll also find legal experts of all persuasions, sometimes fighting for the little guy, filing such briefs. I think in general the practice is important, though surely it’s abused. In some cases it becomes a public record of important dissent, that becomes part of a permanent record.
Surely good ole Rusty must be aware of physical conditions where an individual possesses both female and male .. umm parts in one individual? And cannot ever reproduce.. I wonder if Elder 🛌 Bed snark is aware of such conditions? My mother .. bless her heart, has such unwavering faith .. believing blind obedience to be a test of our complete devotion to God .. but my return missionary daughter and I used to go over for Sunday dinner for several years in a row, and we would get a kick out of rustling her tunnel visioned feathers .. and my far far far right winged racist dad’s neck in a kink ..each week. I asked my mom if she was aware that in an imperfect world made of material matter .. there is a percentage of individuals who are a mix of male and female ..she was aghast .. and stated : “ God would not do that to his children !” Ughhh .. and then we purposefully started a debate on mixed race marriage .. my dad’s eyes bulged, and his face turned red with actual anger. My daughter Maddy reminds me sooo much of Cara.. and she just kept questioning grandpa.. and what made him so clearly enraged ? Maddy could not grasp even remotely what moral issue existed to spark his intense anger and abhorrence with two children of deity coming from different cultures and backgrounds some of the time.. or if multiple generations had passed since migrating to America .. the only difference, being the color of their complexion. Grandpa just shook his head at our ignorance .. how could we not be aware of the Caucasian’s superiority? We were obviously more righteous.. We had to stop taunting grandpa.. before the guy had an actual aneurysm.
I get it. I've moved twice (once to a different state) in my life because of job loss. But.....Utah agriculture has got to die. No way to sugarcoat that.
Always love John Larson’s insights. One small suggestion for the audio: you may want to invest in a pop filter as John Larson’s plosives can be a bit abrasive at times.
@ 1:40:22 Kara tries to use behaviors in the "Animal Kingdom" to justify Human behaviors. That really strikes me wrong. Is she saying homosexuals are to be considered the same as "animals" ? If we see animals engaged in some activity does that give us the right to copy that activity? I enjoy your content and expose's on the Mormon church for the most part but in this episode the logic and arguments of some of the guests seems pretty weak.
I support listening to everyone. But at some point one’s own mental health takes precedence over hearing another person try to defend why you shouldn’t have basic rights. Or bodily autonomy.
39 minutes. But the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints DOES seek apologies. If a member doesn't sustain the leaders or even votes opposed they are expected to repent or else suffer a disciplinary trial and potential loss of membership aka excommunication.
I am sure they will hop onto the Supreme Court case involving my alma mater Yeshiva University and how they are trying to prohibit the YU Pride Alliance from having a club at their New York campus. It seems like BYU would have an interest in the discrimination against the club continues.
This episode was gross. More specifically, it's gross to see what the church is doing with its lawyers and have it laid out in order like this. If I needed any more proof that the church isn't true and actively harmful, this would be it.
I've always felt the same. It's pretty easy to see mormonism is made up, but then you think "but maybe it provides some community and is (more or less) Christian so whatever". Then you hear about their lawyers, what The Church's own legal team does and it's like....holy shit this organization is actively evil.
@ 2:05 So DOES the church allow, through the medical insurance they provide to it's employees, vasectomies? And do they NOT ALLOW tubal ligations? If both are true, WOW, that's a huge red flag of the church's inequality towards women!
I love Mormon Stories long-format videos, but i can't say the same for the ENDLESS introductions and disclaimers. Just get to the purported topic already.
privileged stock This class of participations is usually attributed with a justification, for some specific reason. They are normally created because one partner has risked more money than the others at a time when the company requires it, or because they have assumed a higher risk by investing in one of the earliest phases of the life of the company.
Lawyers behind the curtain - had to laugh as it reminded me of the Wizard of Oz when Toto pulls back the curtain when the Wizard is making his big voice to scare Dorothy, Scarecrow and Lion - pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Reality - we are all Dorothy and friends off to see someone who will answer our wishes of getting home, getting a brain and heart. It is the little dog that pulls back the curtain and exposes the lie. Hmm ...
When it comes to Carah’s rant about the guy saying the church is false after his son said he tried to pray the gay away, but couldn’t… I could understand why we would praise that, but I struggle to do so. This is irrational anecdotal thinking STILL. This is not logical reasoning and we need to strive to get people to do things for the right reasons and have rational reasoning for it!
I usually love Mormon Stories, but leave the judgment with peoples political views out. Not everyone who leaves the church changes all their political views and no matter what people shouldn't make them feel like they are dumb to have those views. It feels sometimes like exmos leave one lie and then believe that government is truthful and isn't just the same as the controlling church.
I would not call you dumb but I always fun it a conundrum that one can leave the church and not adopt more “liberal” views of society and government. This episode in particular demonstrates how the church is always aligned with the most conservative party at whatever time in history. To reject the church often means rejecting conservatism. I’m sure it’s because our reasons for leaving differ, but it is so difficult for me to understand leaving a lying religion just to stay aligned with everything that religion promotes and infiltrates.
I'm a huge NeverMo fan of the show and all of your individual channels, so thank you for another great episode. This question is for John Larsen...you say it's difficult to have discussions when people don't understand basic terminologies and when they deny the existence of LGBTQ people. How do you feel about how the world has decided that the word "woman" no longer means what it always has, and that, in fact, it means whatever anyone wants it to mean whenever they want it to mean one thing over another? And, as a lesbian who, in the prime of her life, finds it impossible to locate, online and in person, groups of actual lesbians, I'm curious where you stand on the effects the obliteration of the meaning of the word "woman" has had on the definition of "lesbian" and the rights of women and lesbians who still believe in the meanings of those words? I'm sorry this is so far from the episode topic. It's just that so many people talk about being allies; but when they get specific, they NEVER mention the fact that eliminating the meaning of the word "woman" eliminates lesbians and our rights to congregating and to having sexual preference in one fell swoop. And for anyone who doesn't believe me, please, I urge you to go look for lesbian dating sites and groups online. Usually you need to go no further than their group descriptions, but the members lists will surely drive it home. I not only avoid trying to find someone to date, but now I also avoid admitting I'm a lesbian to prevent further verbal and physical attacks for only wanting to be with a real woman who has real female life experiences like mine and a real female body. I only came out 4 years ago...and now, at nearly 38, I no longer exist and I am labeled a hateful monster for only wanting women and am pretty well convinced that I'm just going to remain alone.
From a woman and a lesbian who has also grappled with these topics over the last year, I understand. I hear you. I also know a few trans lesbians. I don't understand their experience. But I love them as people and want them to be happy. They are not trying to subtract from your experience as a woman. They are just trying to be true to themselves, to not hide a part of them because others don't agree or understand it. I would hope you can at least have some empathy for that. We have a common shared experience of wanting to hide parts of ourselves away due to a fear of not being accepted by greater society. You will find someone. You don't have to pretend to be into trans women. They aren't trying to make our lives more difficult. They are trying to feel safe and loved just like you are. I challenge you to join one of those groups that has some members that make you feel like you don't belong. Have an open heart. They may surprise you.
@@azlizzie I don't lack empathy for or have a closed heart in regards to any kind of person anywhere. In fact, quite the opposite. In return, I am repeatedly met with hostility, at the very least, for only wanting to be with women and for expecting lesbian groups to be filled with women. I have no hatred or harbor no ill will for trans people and don't need to be talked into accepting them. What I don't accept is that there is no longer a single group anywhere for females. We don't even have our own bathrooms or changing rooms anymore. It's not allowed. Its an actual community rule on reddit. They are allowed their own spaces and privileges and their preferences are catered to everywhere. My love for women and their bodies is transphobic, my/our spaces contain people who are currently or were once men with very male parts and pasts calling themselves lesbians and we are being pressured to death to feel ok with this. I have personally been pressured to "get over the lesbian" in me and was violently informed that just because someone has a penis doesn't mean that SHE is a man. This is someone I met in a former lesbian place. Straight people don't go to gay meetups for dates. We don't go to theirs. Gay guys aren't in lesbian dating groups. We can all accept each other and coexist while keeping our sexual criteria in its own lanes. The T in LGBT has insisted on having unfettered access to all lanes, and if we don't smile about it and deny who we really are to comfort them, we are met with violence and hatred and labeled as violent and hateful. From what I see and have experienced, it is they who need to do the accepting.
@John Larsen thank you for your response. I agree that the media has implied that the left reaches father than it does. Unfortunately, my experience is chock-full of people within its reach who all seem to have rights that we no longer have. We are the only group of people being literally forced out of our ways and told to shut up about it.
My opinion about why the lds church is so against same sex marriage, along with all that was said, also because it makes them less valuable (men) as now women don’t need men as much as it pertains to marriage and all that it entails. The same with equal rights, it would make them (white men) less valuable if all are equal as it is pertaining to skin. Anything that decreases their value as it pertains to what they consider to set them apart and therefore in their belief better they will go against.
Could also be that mormon leaderships view of reality is shaped by the religion! When their reality is threatened, they put their fingers in the holes of the dam to hold back the water! They perceive their responsibility as to protect Mormon cultural values and their minds and hearts are not open to the needs of others, outside their communial reality! More like a fear based barrier to battle what they don't understand! They might believe this to be their role in life! They don't necessarily have to be bad men, but possibly ignorant, or like the tinman... possessing no heart, no compassion for the OTHER, those who exist outside their bubble of reality!
"curiosity killed the cat"... People who lose their curiosity are the ones who get hardened in their views. Now 65, as a kid I went to Catholic School for 10 years. curiosity was great in math and science, not so great in religion class. To this day I've never lost my curiosity. I joke that my parents spent a lot of money to make me an atheist. obviously, John Larson is it very curious fellow. The garden of Eden story... Remain in your ignorance and life is simple. Take a bite of the apple of knowledge, and things start to get complicated. Are you able and do you have the balls to take the bite of the Apple? Then there's the group that took the bite and figured out they can use their knowledge to take advantage of those who remain ignorant. I don't necessarily believe in Good and evil, but those who use their knowledge to prey on the ignorant are evil. Those who use their knowledge to enhance The human experience are good. Therein lies the battle between good and evil.
I haven’t finished the episode yet due to work, but with regard to the discussion in the beginning about ideological views: I find it exhausting how often everything becomes political in every area of life, and especially in the exmormon community. I’ve been mostly liberal my whole adult life and felt largely alienated in mormonism where it seemed like everyone around me was hyper-conservative and weren’t very welcoming to me and my ideas. After leaving the mormon church, I felt much the same way about the exmo community because I wasn’t woke enough for them. Reasonable minds can differ on very complex topics, and it really alienates a lot of us who enjoy exploring ideas and want to find community but are met with a kind of ideological purity test (an “exmo articles of faith” if you will) that we have to pass in order to be part of the group. The fact that I have to seek out politically conservative people just to have a thoughtful and nuanced conversation is frankly sad. It’s sad because the exmo community has largely allowed itself to become the monster it ran away from: an exclusionary group that follows a strict dogma and shuns those who don’t fall in line. It’s like leaving one cult for another. I wouldn’t blame anyone who pulls their funding when they hear someone who claims to be honest and open-minded and truth-seeking talk about political issues with a testimony-meeting-esque sense of certainty, a complete lack of humility, and an Oakes-level contempt for anyone who disagrees.
@John Larsen point taken about not finishing the episode. I should point out that my comment wasn’t specifically addressing any individual points discussed in the episode outside of the preamble at the beginning about expressing political views that turn people off. I suspect that people pull their support because they don’t want to come here to be lectured to about politics, especially when it’s done in such a self-righteous manner as is often the case in the exmo community.
The frustration with the political stuff comes mostly from the standpoint of rigidity, and demonization. You've left religion behind, but you've held on tightly to black and white thinking ("I am correct and everyone else is wrong") and you treat others who don't share your perspective (based on information that you have which differs from the perspective and information of those you disagree with) as lesser than you. Which implies two things 1) you see yourselves as smarter and better at seeking out information and truth than anyone who has a differing view 2) there is no validity to the information and arguments from those holding opposing perspectives. Lots of redundancy here, so TLDR -- you come off as saying: "My facts are the only facts, anyone who believes otherwise is a moron, but also I love hearing moronic perspectives, so come talk to me." Jonathan Streeter, RFM, and Bill Reel are great examples of some who have left the church, but ALSO left the rigidity, judgement, and superiority complexes behind. (This is not an attack, I actually doubled my donations specifically to try to help keep these discussions with Larsen happening)
You guys are very partisan, it makes it challenging for me to listen. I listen for the Mormon content, saying you are non-partisan is gaslighting. Just stick with the Mormonism.
What was being discussed? Amicus briefs, the LDS church's lobbying in Utah, the LDS church's lobbying in California, how the LDS church is literally a corporation, etc. The LDS church's political behavior, which affects American Mormons and non-Mormons, was being discussed. How can this discussion occur without discussing politics? Just as you are allowed to have and express your beliefs, why is it an issue that the panel members express their beliefs? If you want to behave like a triggered snowflake, then I recommend that you flee to a safe space of your choosing somewhere else on the internet.
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. Words of Paul, 1 Timothy 2:11-15 John's comment about women in the church is correct!
I usually enjoy these discussions with John Larsen, but he is more intolerant than most right wing people I know. His “I’m right, you are wrong” black and white thinking is just too darn familiar.
I think a lot of the comments are based on facts and legal precedent on John’s part. Facts can seem abrupt when you are used to a more nuanced outlook on your religion.
I lost a lot of confidence in Larson's abjjectivty in this one. He started out great but lost me with the Colorado case and his rant with trans men and mastectomy vs breast enhancement surgery. He needs to re-think tge issue if he tginks the lds church is acting hypocritical on this.
@John Larsen I really have appreciated over the years your perspectives. I live along the wasatch front and am daily sickened by the advertising of body alteration for women. They are told with considerable constancy that they are not good enough. This emotional and mental programming start when they are very young. So is it a choice? I say not at all. You can't reverse a mastectomy. And teens are getting this done now and are way to young to be making this kind of decision. Yet for the money, Doctors are ever ready to do it. The long term effects are serious and irreversible. Breast enhancement is reversible. Thus the church ought to be more vocal on one over the other. In regards to the Colorado case, I have read up on the issue and feel it is not discrimination at all. Yet it was portrayed as such. Not enough important detail was afforded to the listener and so you. Ame accross as ultra biased to some of us listeners. It is also not constitutional to compel some one to serve against that persons religious beliefs. He was and is willing to bake the cake, but not decorate it. It is much more involved than what you suggested.
Love John Larsen. He is intelligent and articulate. He also has good pacing. ❤
So happy you have Sam on! I love all these wonderful people!
I think sexism is a deep thread of justification for the fixation on gay marriage, too. John Larson mentioned the fear of two men having a marriage where neither is the clear head of the family, but even more dangerous from the perspective of Mormon theology would be, to my mind, a lesbian marriage. They are scared to have their members see marriages thrive with a complete lack of anyone with a Y chromosome. Because when a heterosexual non Mormon marriage does well, you could at least say that even a man without faith has what they consider to be the intrinsic leadership capabilities of his gender. For women to handle life together well in the complete absence of a man shows that women have the same degree of intrinsic value and ability. Which undermines their argument that women are a complement to men and not their equal. Which in turn undermines their very cosmology. Mormonism cannot handle gender equality. It utterly crumbles in the face of it.
Well said! I never considered that successful same sex relationships literally undermine foundational Mormon theology.
I’ve been saying this for a decade. The purpose of high demand religions is to subjugate women. That purpose is thwarted by same-sex marriage because it reveals the lies constructed by religious doctrine. That’s why evangelicals, Mormons, etc. flip out about same-sex marriage. It’s a threat to men’s opportunity to effectively use religion to accumulate and wield power.
Took me three whole days to finish this one because I was so busy this weekend, but it was so worth it!!! 11/10
What a great set of people. Not just just “the Johns,” but Samantha, Carah, and Maven, too!
Dreeeeeeam team!
It's like The Avengers of Exmo content creators.
@@LockeDemosthenes2 not to be confused with The BritVengers :D
Also , John Larsen . He’s a Superman.
Sound solid startling revelation. Telling it like it is. All four of you were wonderful but John Larsen does not mince words and hits a home run every time he is on. Such an important episode. Shout out to Maven who does her magic behind the scenes.
Great show, everyone. These are the ones I love. Keep on exposing the cult for what it is!
So.. when I was being physically abused so badly during my second marriage .. and went to the bishop for support .. and I explicitly asked if I could be placed somewhere safe in an undisclosed haven my explosive husband would never know .. I was promptly put in my place.
I was told in no uncertain terms, that my husband was not capable of such abuse , and my bishop stated his divine inspiration revealing how he knew my husband and I had been brought together through divine intervention.
Behind closed doors, I was being choked and thrown down stairs, and pulled around by my hair, and spit on because some lady co worker warned my loving hubby it was evident I was just a gold digger. I mean why else would a younger attractive woman be so into him.
Then, I went to the stake President and severely scorned for not supporting a church leader who was called of God .. and I needed to go home and support the priesthood.
This of course, was the shelf breaker for me.
Anyway, I realized as the years have gone by … that it is all about the protection of the institution, vs the individual.
“ It is better that one man perish, than a nation dwindle and die in unbelief.”
Adding fuel to the fire .. aka .. pursuing punishment for MR. brother white collar, temple recommend holding husband of mine.. and making certain lower form 😢 accusatory woman .. being provided an advocate, a support system, a safe haven.. could foster a breakdown of the system.
So a few hapless waifs must fall by the wayside.. like a few apples from the harvest..
Holding space for your pain as you heal from the controlling programming and narcissistic cycle of Abuse you endured. Sending you love 💕
So, so sorry you went through this! It's horrific and your church SHOULD have had your back. I'm sorry you found yourself without support and obviously you've left; I'm so glad you found freedom from everything that was holding you down and back.
People don't realize how backwards this church really is. The way women are treated in Utah, and the way LGBTQ people are treated, is beyond reprehensible. I could provide a lengthy list of misogynist crap I dealt with as a professional, non-LDS woman living and working in that state. While I was raised LDS, and understood this corporation posing as a church, it didn't make it any easier to cope. The religion was a daily thing I dealt with. Whether it was my male employees not believing they had to "subject themselves" to me as their boss, or being asked what ward I was in during interviews, or being told by my LDS bishop doctor that I needed my husband's permission to have a hysterectomy (for CANCER that was SPREADING) and only got the hysterectomy because my husband was dead. I said elsewhere in the comments that when my grandson came out as trans, our entire family moved out of state. Based on what we had been put through because of this church, we knew he wouldn't survive growing up in Utah. His divorced parents, his aunts and uncles, his grandparents and great grandparents all relocated and his great grandma quit going to church.
You were victimized by this as much as you were by your husband, who grew up believing and knowing he was superior to you. It's disgusting. I'm so sorry you dealt with this patriarchal crap in such a horrific way. Love to you.
@@TheForestCrone thank you sooo much for your support and empathy!
I was born into an abusive environment with a very narcissistic, authoritarian father, and an incredibly naive, submissive mother;whom I felt I had to parent. I am finally living out my childhood and reparenting myself 😊.
I shared only one traumatizing experience out of many. I vowed not to make the same mistake my mother did, and it’s haunting how subconscious conditioning works. I think I may finally have a handle on it, although I am currently trying to get a protective order against the winner of all the narcissistic men I’ve associated with.. I think he was the one to help me finally learn my lesson ! Of course I have adrenal fatigue and migraines since he got out of jail. The friends I am staying with we’re supposedly helping me to be protected from him upon his release, but it turns out I was set up and they are very loyal to their friend of 30 years. They have known me 3 yrs.. Somehow that means they are loyal to him first. Everything I shared with them, my history, secrets, passions, fears, goals, morals, all down the drain and replaced by his smear campaign. My so called friend tried to take me to a mental hospital last week, because how could I be so upset over a man just being kind?
They actually believed him! Of course, in actuality, he went into a narcissistic rage when I asked where he put my phone charger after an OCD spell lol.. going through my personal belongings under the guise of “helping me.”.. assessing items worth stealing .. which he of course did. He went into a rage that consisted of how dare I accuse him of stealing, and after all his help , why don’t I look for it!
And ultimately I was a lazy f n C word who made up my migraines .. then throwing the full garbage can across the kitchen .. and I promptly kicked him out. Alas .. he was able to find validation and comfort in the woman upstairs.. far from the evil, unhinged Eileen.
I’m really at peace .. but do experience deep sadness at times.
And I totally get the LGBTQ challenge as well. My son Spencer came out about 6 years ago. He tried to be the perfect LDS son, hiding his suicidal ideations from me abs his father .. he even served a mission in the Philippines. But shortly after his return, his authentic self broke free.
He is such a sweetheart, kind and creative, and empathic. He is a happy, dating graphic designer in Cali now; no linger LDS.
Anyway .. thanks again ! Take care
Thanks!
Everyone should have the humbling experience of discovering that a core belief is 100% wrong. I'm glad it happened to me.
The best thing I ever did was realize that there’s something very wrong about ANY man who thinks I need to change or repent or confess my “sins” to them. Stewardship, priesthood leader, etc are false concepts made by men and imposed upon us by men. I love men, but I’m not subservient to anyone. Period.
John Larsen! As a millenial with socialist ideals, I appreciate and support your input. The issues and points you bring up and moreso even your viewpoint on it all, is so refreshing and important. I have been listening to Mormon Stories for a year or 2 now. But with them or on your own, I love to hear you and your work. Thanks for all you do.
YES JOHN LARSEN!!! His commentary at the beginning is absolute perfection!
Love you guys! Thanks for the great convo!
Eta: John L, thank you for bringing the Amicus Briefs and their cont3nt into the limelight tonight. I agree that money and lawyers show the values of an organization far better than the stated values. What a sham. I really am seething angry at the church most of the time at 1 year out of the church.
Informative AF!
The comment by John Larson that all people have a religious viewpoint that should be protected by the law was a beautiful beautiful statement!
Carah comments about 1.14 minutes are exactly how I feel and felt. I realised decades ago that the safety of my children and I was not the church's priority.
❤️💯
Sam's comment, 1:45:16, nailed the church's motivation imo. Gender roles are incredibly important to the church's survival.
What a terrific episode wherein all of you contributed so significantly. Props to John Larsen for being such a compassionate badass.
You can't pray the gay away, but you can gay the pray away.
Queerness is more powerful than God!
My aunts scare the missionaries away when one opens the door and says let me get my wife haha:p eff homophobia:p
Here here! 😄
I knew you were real people. There's a reason I like ALL of you. You're good, good people. IMO, that's the definition of Progressives - Just good people wanting the best for everyone and the planet.
This episode was fantastic! You four have a great dynamic and I'd love to see more episodes with you all.
I brought up the tunnels with a friend some years ago, and I understood you have short cuts and golf carts for the elderly suits, which is all of the 15. But a short cut in a tunnel between the lawyers and the Corporation? I know the meat of this episode is not about tunnels, but there is so much that never sat right with me. Thank you for bringing so much John Larson. I'm on my second listen, well worth it! 😊
I've been a donor for years and I love the anti-capitalism rants :)
Thank you so much for the plug for plant based diets! Animal ag is a huge problem that doesn’t get enough attention.
I am glad John Larsen addressed how the lds church may view breast augmentation for folks versus breast removal for trans men, as well as the case involving a trans boy wanting to use the restroom that corresponds with his gender. I think there needs to be more coverage of the topic of trans issues in the context of the lds church by folks (such as John) who are aware of the current best practices and accepted peer reviewed research on trans health. I think it is great that Mormon Stories and others have covered gay issues and the lds church, but there really needs to be more attention brought to trans issues as well, especially given the current media attention and misinformation being spread, even recently by an ex-Mormon RUclipsr.
Great John Larsen episode, as usual. 😊
Bravo! I love this episode. Thank you. All of you. Bravo! Praise God!
Or praise the people who made the podcast! 😊
@@Maryfs1 I think she did. I'm not religious either. But she's religious. It's ok.
When I was on my parents DMBA church-owned insurance company 15 years ago, they made me prove through my doctor that I required birth control for medical reasons. At least back then, they were doing audits on insurance billing codes and such.
I enjoyed John's rant about states' rights. I consider states' rights to be a potential (often, but not always) red flag in a discussion. If someone starts talking about states' rights, I usually think, "Uh oh, this is a potential red flag. What immoral or unethical thing does this person want to defend with states' rights?"
True! And In most cases where people cite “states rights” they are advocating for states to be able to restrict individual rights. Ask those same people if they believe in “states rights” to restrict free speech, gun rights, or freedom of religion.
@@solis44 Questioning another American's gun rights... You sir/madam are an American that likes to walk on the wild side! I bet you drive around without wearing your seatbelt! /s
Would TSCC changing home/visiting teaching to “ministering” perhaps let them show at a later point if needed, that they technically do let women minister?
"Prophet sharing = Profit sharing" should be a movement within the Church. The Church invests money coming from the membership, makes a profit on those investments over and above what is needed to fund the church activities. Why shouldn't there be a dividend, or profit sharing, in this corporation? Think of how effective this would be in recruiting new members! "Joining the Mormon Church is an investment that pays off, not a burden". And who would leave a church and lose such a big investment?
Larsen, again, is educating us about legalities and it's much appreciated.
I lived in the Marshall Islands for four years where everybody is Christian, but there is a reluctance to get married in the church because it was seen as "permanent" as opposed to the traditional marriage where parents were in control of who their daughters married. If a man abused his wife, her parents would order her to leave him and return home. Traditional marriages were strictly family affairs, and this was probably true in many cultures.
Hi Harlan,
Or they could use it for what it was intended and feed the hungry, cloth the poor, house the homeless, help people with medical bills and essentially serve humanity! But they would have to alter.their objective from being the richest church in the world to actually following the teachings of Jesus, but where is the bragging rights in that!!! Actually helping the poor is a burden to the Mormon Churches objective ... World dominance! From the corporate perspective it makes perfect sense! From the spiritual perspective... They have lost their way!
@@sidvicious2845 Hi Sid! You're right....of course. Jesus was asked how to identify a prophet, and he said to look at their fruit. A good tree can only bear good fruit, and a bad tree can only bear bad fruit. So people have to decide for themselves whether the fruit of the LDS prophets is good fruit or bad. People need to have the freedom to eat bad fruit and call it good. For me, some of the criteria for making such a judgment is whether the fruit has the taste of honesty, truthfulness, compassion, generosity and love for all people.
Hi Harlan,
The wonderful thing about freewill is we learn from our mistakes which we seem to learn more from! We all have the right to make mistakes! Unfortunately in this case, a lot of wonderful people suffer because religious leaders choose money over service to humanity! And as Jesus said... Those leaders have their reward!
@@sidvicious2845 We all learn from suffering, even the wonderful people. Children are all wonderful, but they also need to mature through the good and the bad things which life throws at them. Religions cannot stop the suffering, but they should provide the community of loving people so that we're not alone. Feeling alone is one of the worst sufferings.
Life is a school and suffering one of it's greatest teachers! The word for compassion in German is "mitlied" which translates as shared suffering! Participating in the suffering of another, to give them the strength to endure! As Martin Luther King said... "It's cruel to tell a man to pull himself up by his bootstraps ... Who has no boots! Jesus once said, they speak of me with their lips but their hearts are far from me! I'm sure Jesus will know where it is and isn't appropriate!
One of the many mantras of Mormonism is, "the church is true."
They say, I know this church is true
Love the discussion from the Johns and Sam!
THANK YOU!
Thank you...this episode was epic. The four of you bring so much knowledge and insight to the conversation... and another layer of the onion falls away.
the women and wine jesus is my favorite.
I attended Bob Jones University during 1982-1983. Couldn't stand it. I begged my parents to let me come home after 3 horrific semesters. Yes, the ban on inter-racial dating still existed back then and I thought it was terrible; although I didn't know about that rule until I was enrolled there. Yes, they only changed things because they were pressured by media and wanted to keep their tax exempt status. So glad to get out of that school and I ended up graduating from Eastern Mennonite University in Virginia.
Very helpful episode. Can anyone help me find the Oaks talk where he mentioned if a family member enters a gay marriage they nay visit but don’t expect to stay at the house, etc. I remember it but can’t find the actual talk.
It was a statement with another attorney.
Since Theodore Roosevelt was both a firebrand and a teddy bear, I think John Larsen can be both as well.
Thanks you guys for this series.
I have learned a lot today.
Just more of a bloody mess that is the church. Excuse me I meant to say a corporation.
Yes, Sam is absolutely right in that gay (or bi) people threaten the gender roles and that is one of the foundations for the church and for the patriarchy.
Didn't John Oliver do a piece not that long ago about how easy it is to start a religious organization?
I love this exmormon community. Seeing Carah, Sam, John Dehlin and Larsen is like the exmormon version of the MCU
The taco comment from jake was about paying Carah to eat. In a way previous episode Carah said something about Taco Bell when getting paid so it was a reference to that.
P.S. Thank you!!
59:00 Is there any chance that the change of Home Teaching to Ministering would allow them to classify every member employee as a minister, and therefor covered under the ministerial exemption? Any thoughts on whether that position would be upheld legally?
My family insists they have agency and don't agree with certain things, like discrimination. However, they all are temple recommend holding "perfect" people. Talk about irony!!!
Donald Trump by himself adequately debunks the belief that women are too emotional for leadership positions.
Oh please, please get Greg Matsen (cwic media) to come on the podcast. Nothing would make me happier than hearing his answers to any questions you might pose and him linking every issue back to CRT.
Wasn't the most recent revelation from God the one that Coke is okay to drink? Praise be and all that
John Larsen - I think you are a saint. You should not listen to mindless mormons. Most mormons are completely illiterate about the church and the Gospel of JC.
LMAO at John Larsen's "bag of slop in my tits" comment @2:04:30 hahaha, it was so unexpected and I can't stop laughing about it. Great point though
I nominate John Larsen to write that book! Great conversation but frightening at the same time.
Go John Larson - you tell it like it is!
1:23:57
I had an argument with a family member who was a bishop's wife because she whole heartedly believed "the gays" shouldn't be able to adopt and that it would be better if the kids are in abusive or neglectful households with nonbelievers than be adopted by a kind gay couple... because "being gay is abusive to others." Said family member actively pretends her gay brother was never born.
Some of the best parents I know are Gay. True there are some bad Gay people too just as there are among all humans.
Talking about the votes in Utah. Went to a local primary. There were only 200~ish people expected to show up for my district. My vote literally counted as a percentage point. And Mormons are so encouraged to vote. Of course the legislature is Mormon
Just to note, amicus briefs are not only for the purposes of allowing wealthy, politically powerful people to influence the courts. Of course that happens. But you’ll also find legal experts of all persuasions, sometimes fighting for the little guy, filing such briefs. I think in general the practice is important, though surely it’s abused. In some cases it becomes a public record of important dissent, that becomes part of a permanent record.
Surely good ole Rusty must be aware of physical conditions where an individual possesses both female and male .. umm parts in one individual?
And cannot ever reproduce..
I wonder if Elder 🛌 Bed snark is aware of such conditions?
My mother .. bless her heart, has such unwavering faith .. believing blind obedience to be a test of our complete devotion to God .. but my return missionary daughter and I used to go over for Sunday dinner for several years in a row, and we would get a kick out of rustling her tunnel visioned feathers .. and my far far far right winged racist dad’s neck in a kink ..each week.
I asked my mom if she was aware that in an imperfect world made of material matter .. there is a percentage of individuals who are a mix of male and female ..she was aghast .. and stated : “ God would not do that to his children !”
Ughhh .. and then we purposefully started a debate on mixed race marriage .. my dad’s eyes bulged, and his face turned red with actual anger.
My daughter Maddy reminds me sooo much of Cara.. and she just kept questioning grandpa.. and what made him so clearly enraged ?
Maddy could not grasp even remotely what moral issue existed to spark his intense anger and abhorrence with two children of deity coming from different cultures and backgrounds some of the time.. or if multiple generations had passed since migrating to America .. the only difference, being the color of their complexion.
Grandpa just shook his head at our ignorance .. how could we not be aware of the Caucasian’s superiority?
We were obviously more righteous..
We had to stop taunting grandpa.. before the guy had an actual aneurysm.
Sounds like a fun bunch, your family 😅
I get it. I've moved twice (once to a different state) in my life because of job loss. But.....Utah agriculture has got to die. No way to sugarcoat that.
Does anyone have a link to The NY Times article on Christian nationalism that John Dehlin mentioned?
I hate sites where we can’t have discussions about what is real and all around us
Always love John Larson’s insights. One small suggestion for the audio: you may want to invest in a pop filter as John Larson’s plosives can be a bit abrasive at times.
@ 1:40:22 Kara tries to use behaviors in the "Animal Kingdom" to justify Human behaviors. That really strikes me wrong. Is she saying homosexuals are to be considered the same as "animals" ? If we see animals engaged in some activity does that give us the right to copy that activity?
I enjoy your content and expose's on the Mormon church for the most part but in this episode the logic and arguments of some of the guests seems pretty weak.
I support listening to everyone. But at some point one’s own mental health takes precedence over hearing another person try to defend why you shouldn’t have basic rights. Or bodily autonomy.
John spoke of privileged stock. The correct term is preferred stock.
39 minutes. But the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints DOES seek apologies. If a member doesn't sustain the leaders or even votes opposed they are expected to repent or else suffer a disciplinary trial and potential loss of membership aka excommunication.
I am sure they will hop onto the Supreme Court case involving my alma mater Yeshiva University and how they are trying to prohibit the YU Pride Alliance from having a club at their New York campus. It seems like BYU would have an interest in the discrimination against the club continues.
This episode was gross. More specifically, it's gross to see what the church is doing with its lawyers and have it laid out in order like this. If I needed any more proof that the church isn't true and actively harmful, this would be it.
I've always felt the same. It's pretty easy to see mormonism is made up, but then you think "but maybe it provides some community and is (more or less) Christian so whatever". Then you hear about their lawyers, what The Church's own legal team does and it's like....holy shit this organization is actively evil.
@ 2:05
So DOES the church allow, through the medical insurance they provide to it's employees, vasectomies? And do they NOT ALLOW tubal ligations?
If both are true, WOW, that's a huge red flag of the church's inequality towards women!
💙
I love Mormon Stories long-format videos, but i can't say the same for the ENDLESS introductions and disclaimers. Just get to the purported topic already.
privileged stock This class of participations is usually attributed with a justification, for some specific reason. They are normally created because one partner has risked more money than the others at a time when the company requires it, or because they have assumed a higher risk by investing in one of the earliest phases of the life of the company.
Preferred stock, not privileged, Mr Larsen. I'll forgive you this time. lol
Stockholders? Who are the stockholders?
I had my temple endowment couple of days ago , WTF
😢
Lawyers behind the curtain - had to laugh as it reminded me of the Wizard of Oz when Toto pulls back the curtain when the Wizard is making his big voice to scare Dorothy, Scarecrow and Lion - pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Reality - we are all Dorothy and friends off to see someone who will answer our wishes of getting home, getting a brain and heart. It is the little dog that pulls back the curtain and exposes the lie. Hmm ...
When it comes to Carah’s rant about the guy saying the church is false after his son said he tried to pray the gay away, but couldn’t… I could understand why we would praise that, but I struggle to do so. This is irrational anecdotal thinking STILL. This is not logical reasoning and we need to strive to get people to do things for the right reasons and have rational reasoning for it!
maybe the churches should install artificial turf.
King of the world - for real? Wow
I usually love Mormon Stories, but leave the judgment with peoples political views out. Not everyone who leaves the church changes all their political views and no matter what people shouldn't make them feel like they are dumb to have those views. It feels sometimes like exmos leave one lie and then believe that government is truthful and isn't just the same as the controlling church.
I would not call you dumb but I always fun it a conundrum that one can leave the church and not adopt more “liberal” views of society and government. This episode in particular demonstrates how the church is always aligned with the most conservative party at whatever time in history. To reject the church often means rejecting conservatism. I’m sure it’s because our reasons for leaving differ, but it is so difficult for me to understand leaving a lying religion just to stay aligned with everything that religion promotes and infiltrates.
Will cutting down my shower time help with the salt lake thing if I live in Perry Utah?
Thank you, John Larson, for recognizing that women have been subjugated and seen as "less than," from the beginning of the church, to this very day.
Oh! I didn’t feel any “political polarization” before Carah’s comment. 🥶
Commenting on how gay marriage might impede faithful members marriages. All the gay spouses now have another option. 🤷♀️
I'm a huge NeverMo fan of the show and all of your individual channels, so thank you for another great episode. This question is for John Larsen...you say it's difficult to have discussions when people don't understand basic terminologies and when they deny the existence of LGBTQ people. How do you feel about how the world has decided that the word "woman" no longer means what it always has, and that, in fact, it means whatever anyone wants it to mean whenever they want it to mean one thing over another? And, as a lesbian who, in the prime of her life, finds it impossible to locate, online and in person, groups of actual lesbians, I'm curious where you stand on the effects the obliteration of the meaning of the word "woman" has had on the definition of "lesbian" and the rights of women and lesbians who still believe in the meanings of those words?
I'm sorry this is so far from the episode topic. It's just that so many people talk about being allies; but when they get specific, they NEVER mention the fact that eliminating the meaning of the word "woman" eliminates lesbians and our rights to congregating and to having sexual preference in one fell swoop. And for anyone who doesn't believe me, please, I urge you to go look for lesbian dating sites and groups online. Usually you need to go no further than their group descriptions, but the members lists will surely drive it home. I not only avoid trying to find someone to date, but now I also avoid admitting I'm a lesbian to prevent further verbal and physical attacks for only wanting to be with a real woman who has real female life experiences like mine and a real female body. I only came out 4 years ago...and now, at nearly 38, I no longer exist and I am labeled a hateful monster for only wanting women and am pretty well convinced that I'm just going to remain alone.
From a woman and a lesbian who has also grappled with these topics over the last year, I understand. I hear you. I also know a few trans lesbians. I don't understand their experience. But I love them as people and want them to be happy. They are not trying to subtract from your experience as a woman. They are just trying to be true to themselves, to not hide a part of them because others don't agree or understand it.
I would hope you can at least have some empathy for that. We have a common shared experience of wanting to hide parts of ourselves away due to a fear of not being accepted by greater society.
You will find someone. You don't have to pretend to be into trans women. They aren't trying to make our lives more difficult. They are trying to feel safe and loved just like you are.
I challenge you to join one of those groups that has some members that make you feel like you don't belong. Have an open heart. They may surprise you.
@@azlizzie I don't lack empathy for or have a closed heart in regards to any kind of person anywhere. In fact, quite the opposite. In return, I am repeatedly met with hostility, at the very least, for only wanting to be with women and for expecting lesbian groups to be filled with women. I have no hatred or harbor no ill will for trans people and don't need to be talked into accepting them. What I don't accept is that there is no longer a single group anywhere for females. We don't even have our own bathrooms or changing rooms anymore. It's not allowed. Its an actual community rule on reddit. They are allowed their own spaces and privileges and their preferences are catered to everywhere. My love for women and their bodies is transphobic, my/our spaces contain people who are currently or were once men with very male parts and pasts calling themselves lesbians and we are being pressured to death to feel ok with this. I have personally been pressured to "get over the lesbian" in me and was violently informed that just because someone has a penis doesn't mean that SHE is a man. This is someone I met in a former lesbian place. Straight people don't go to gay meetups for dates. We don't go to theirs. Gay guys aren't in lesbian dating groups. We can all accept each other and coexist while keeping our sexual criteria in its own lanes. The T in LGBT has insisted on having unfettered access to all lanes, and if we don't smile about it and deny who we really are to comfort them, we are met with violence and hatred and labeled as violent and hateful. From what I see and have experienced, it is they who need to do the accepting.
@John Larsen thank you for your response. I agree that the media has implied that the left reaches father than it does. Unfortunately, my experience is chock-full of people within its reach who all seem to have rights that we no longer have. We are the only group of people being literally forced out of our ways and told to shut up about it.
My opinion about why the lds church is so against same sex marriage, along with all that was said, also because it makes them less valuable (men) as now women don’t need men as much as it pertains to marriage and all that it entails. The same with equal rights, it would make them (white men) less valuable if all are equal as it is pertaining to skin. Anything that decreases their value as it pertains to what they consider to set them apart and therefore in their belief better they will go against.
Could also be that mormon leaderships view of reality is shaped by the religion! When their reality is threatened, they put their fingers in the holes of the dam to hold back the water! They perceive their responsibility as to protect Mormon cultural values and their minds and hearts are not open to the needs of others, outside their communial reality! More like a fear based barrier to battle what they don't understand! They might believe this to be their role in life! They don't necessarily have to be bad men, but possibly ignorant, or like the tinman... possessing no heart, no compassion for the OTHER, those who exist outside their bubble of reality!
Gonzalez Nancy Miller Sandra Thomas George
"curiosity killed the cat"... People who lose their curiosity are the ones who get hardened in their views. Now 65, as a kid I went to Catholic School for 10 years. curiosity was great in math and science, not so great in religion class. To this day I've never lost my curiosity. I joke that my parents spent a lot of money to make me an atheist. obviously, John Larson is it very curious fellow. The garden of Eden story... Remain in your ignorance and life is simple. Take a bite of the apple of knowledge, and things start to get complicated. Are you able and do you have the balls to take the bite of the Apple? Then there's the group that took the bite and figured out they can use their knowledge to take advantage of those who remain ignorant. I don't necessarily believe in Good and evil, but those who use their knowledge to prey on the ignorant are evil. Those who use their knowledge to enhance The human experience are good. Therein lies the battle between good and evil.
I haven’t finished the episode yet due to work, but with regard to the discussion in the beginning about ideological views: I find it exhausting how often everything becomes political in every area of life, and especially in the exmormon community. I’ve been mostly liberal my whole adult life and felt largely alienated in mormonism where it seemed like everyone around me was hyper-conservative and weren’t very welcoming to me and my ideas. After leaving the mormon church, I felt much the same way about the exmo community because I wasn’t woke enough for them.
Reasonable minds can differ on very complex topics, and it really alienates a lot of us who enjoy exploring ideas and want to find community but are met with a kind of ideological purity test (an “exmo articles of faith” if you will) that we have to pass in order to be part of the group.
The fact that I have to seek out politically conservative people just to have a thoughtful and nuanced conversation is frankly sad. It’s sad because the exmo community has largely allowed itself to become the monster it ran away from: an exclusionary group that follows a strict dogma and shuns those who don’t fall in line. It’s like leaving one cult for another.
I wouldn’t blame anyone who pulls their funding when they hear someone who claims to be honest and open-minded and truth-seeking talk about political issues with a testimony-meeting-esque sense of certainty, a complete lack of humility, and an Oakes-level contempt for anyone who disagrees.
Everything *is* political. That's not new; people are just starting to realize it.
@John Larsen point taken about not finishing the episode. I should point out that my comment wasn’t specifically addressing any individual points discussed in the episode outside of the preamble at the beginning about expressing political views that turn people off. I suspect that people pull their support because they don’t want to come here to be lectured to about politics, especially when it’s done in such a self-righteous manner as is often the case in the exmo community.
jesus didn’t write anything etc. but you knew that.
This episode seemed too fart sniffy, I tried. I checked out despite a good cast of characters
The frustration with the political stuff comes mostly from the standpoint of rigidity, and demonization. You've left religion behind, but you've held on tightly to black and white thinking ("I am correct and everyone else is wrong") and you treat others who don't share your perspective (based on information that you have which differs from the perspective and information of those you disagree with) as lesser than you. Which implies two things 1) you see yourselves as smarter and better at seeking out information and truth than anyone who has a differing view 2) there is no validity to the information and arguments from those holding opposing perspectives.
Lots of redundancy here, so TLDR -- you come off as saying: "My facts are the only facts, anyone who believes otherwise is a moron, but also I love hearing moronic perspectives, so come talk to me."
Jonathan Streeter, RFM, and Bill Reel are great examples of some who have left the church, but ALSO left the rigidity, judgement, and superiority complexes behind.
(This is not an attack, I actually doubled my donations specifically to try to help keep these discussions with Larsen happening)
You guys are very partisan, it makes it challenging for me to listen. I listen for the Mormon content, saying you are non-partisan is gaslighting. Just stick with the Mormonism.
I agree with Cuddy. Stick with what has worked. Religious discussion. Not political rants.
What was being discussed? Amicus briefs, the LDS church's lobbying in Utah, the LDS church's lobbying in California, how the LDS church is literally a corporation, etc. The LDS church's political behavior, which affects American Mormons and non-Mormons, was being discussed. How can this discussion occur without discussing politics? Just as you are allowed to have and express your beliefs, why is it an issue that the panel members express their beliefs? If you want to behave like a triggered snowflake, then I recommend that you flee to a safe space of your choosing somewhere else on the internet.
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. Words of Paul, 1 Timothy 2:11-15
John's comment about women in the church is correct!
I usually enjoy these discussions with John Larsen, but he is more intolerant than most right wing people I know. His “I’m right, you are wrong” black and white thinking is just too darn familiar.
I agree. He seems to do what he accuses others of doing.
Wow, a right winger claiming to be a victim. I am shocked! /s
I think a lot of the comments are based on facts and legal precedent on John’s part. Facts can seem abrupt when you are used to a more nuanced outlook on your religion.
The more of his content I see, the more I agree with you.
I lost a lot of confidence in Larson's abjjectivty in this one. He started out great but lost me with the Colorado case and his rant with trans men and mastectomy vs breast enhancement surgery. He needs to re-think tge issue if he tginks the lds church is acting hypocritical on this.
@John Larsen I really have appreciated over the years your perspectives.
I live along the wasatch front and am daily sickened by the advertising of body alteration for women. They are told with considerable constancy that they are not good enough. This emotional and mental programming start when they are very young. So is it a choice? I say not at all. You can't reverse a mastectomy. And teens are getting this done now and are way to young to be making this kind of decision. Yet for the money, Doctors are ever ready to do it. The long term effects are serious and irreversible. Breast enhancement is reversible. Thus the church ought to be more vocal on one over the other.
In regards to the Colorado case, I have read up on the issue and feel it is not discrimination at all. Yet it was portrayed as such. Not enough important detail was afforded to the listener and so you. Ame accross as ultra biased to some of us listeners. It is also not constitutional to compel some one to serve against that persons religious beliefs. He was and is willing to bake the cake, but not decorate it. It is much more involved than what you suggested.
Thanks!