The story about her questioning the branch president strikes a chord. When I was relief society president in a YSA ward, I spoke up (very respectfully) in ward council with an alternative opinion when the bishop suggested something. It got a bit quiet and awkward. It just hadn’t occurred to me that I wasn’t allowed to offer another opinion. The EQ Pres shared his opinion often. Later the bishop told me that a SISTER had come up to him and said “I can’t believe she challenged you like that in ward council. Are you going to talk to her about it?” (What is mind blowing is that women are often the most vehement about women knowing their place in the church…). At the end of the day the men were in the council to have a council. I guess I was just there for show. My opinion wasn’t wanted. Just smile and nod sister, forget the fact that you are here representing HALF the ward.
Heartbreakingly accurate. I kept fighting back tears, partly because it's all true and I've lived it, but also because someone is FINALLY addressing it, hearing and seeing us. Even in post-mo groups, this topic tends to not get a lot of mention. Thank you!
I'm agender but I was assigned female at birth (and I generally have a feminine gender presentation), and I was raised and socialized as a woman, so I still identify with womanhood in a way. I relate to this topic so much! Excellent summary of the misogynistic problems. The pressure to be married is INTENSE in mormonism. It was very rough for me because I'm gay, and trying to force myself to date men was a nightmare. (One I'm thankfully no longer living, since I'm an exmo now and free to be my queer self \^.^/) But in the past I just kept watching the days and months and years go by, feeling like if I didn't get married soon I would miss my chance. Ummm, I'm only 29 lol, and this line of thinking started around age 24, which is soooo young! In reality I have tons of time, but the culture made me feel like an old maid. I also don't really think I want kids (I may change my mind later in life, but for now I only want to be a dog mom :P) and not wanting kids in Utah is practically a crime. The gasps of horror you'd get if you dare say you don't want to be a mom...yikes 🙄 Women are not just sex toys and baby making machines, and I'm really glad to be done with an organization like the mormon church that treats women that way.
My best friend is asexual and the way people react in the church when they find out is honestly hilarious. They get so confused that she doesn’t want kids, doesn’t want to have sex and isn’t “tempted to break the le of chastity,” and that she isn’t going to get married and just put up with occasional sex because they feel like that’s somehow the right thing to do. I’ve even heard a couple of people say she should marry a gay guy so they can both keep their covenants- I’m just glad she got out and now is a proud panromantic ace who won’t put up with other peoples bullshit 😁
@@Zodiacalesotericmatrix dead 💀 it’s ridiculous that the church basically expects you to be asexual until you get married, then you’re supposed to proverbially flip a switch and become a sexual being and have lots of kids
What’s agender? What’s does it mean you were assigned female? Were you born w female or male organs or both & is that why u say you are both? I’m so confused but do not want to be disrespectful at all so I apologize in advance if it comes across rudely at all.
The discussion on sexual intimacy really jumped out at me! BIC in 1954 and married a convert RM in 1978. Temple marriage, we were temple workers, Relief Society president yada yada yada. We left the church in 1992 with three young children when we realized the church wasn't true. After we left the church our sex life improved tremendously. The church is really messed up and hampers intimacy in marriage at best and destroys marriages at worst.
The relatively small Mormon cult has by far the best ex-members community offering by far the best and most helpful therapeutic and educational content on social media. Well done, Mormon Stories Podcast, for your excellent work! ❤️
🤯 "You're black, he's black!?!?" Absolutely no words. Once was "paired" in a calling with another lovely woman. Much younger than me, grew up in another state, had a different profession, etc. I was told the bishopric thought we would get along. We were both Hispanic and Spanish-speaking. There's not a good enough eye roll emoji for this one.
I loved this. As a woman and a post-mo I resonated with almost every point. I also loved when John Larsen talked about othering the poor. I see that as one of the biggest problems in the U.S.
"Just give 'em money. That's what make the world go round. Just take some of that hundred billion f*cking dollars and just cut them a check. Quit playing these games with beans and rice."
The part of this episode when they’re talking about the Bishop storehouse and how they make you beg and grovel made my stomach churn. How disgusting. Disgusting. That’s abhorrent. Absolutely unacceptable.
The bishop doesn’t make you beg. We needed help from the store hoard was treated with nothing but respect and gave us whatever we needed. Don’t always believe what people that have left the church or is disgruntled with the LDS church has to say.
@@selfimprovement.1925 congratulations, you had a good experience. That doesn’t mean that when others have a bad experience, it’s automatically not true.
@@selfimprovement.1925We were shamed, blamed, and told we had to give up our phones and TV (the only refuge we had for our mental health with what was going on in our family at the time) in order to get help with food. As young girls, we were blamed for our father's abusive behavior and for the fact that he had stopped working. The only escape we had was watching a movie or show at the end of the day, and the bishop wanted to smash our faces in the ground and make us feel even more hopeless before he would help us with food. Before then, we had been upper middle class and paid lots of tithing to the church. I always paid tithing and added money for welfare/relief out of my allowance as a young child. The way we were treated when we went to the bishop seeking help and safety during abuse was traumatic. And he was generally a great bishop, otherwise.
Around 1:50 mns: The humiliation of needing charity. Right on about the culture of humiliating poor people in America. It is not just an LDS culture. It is the same humiliation for everyone applying for welfare, and for other Christian denominations in regards to offering Christmas presents and charity. Friends of mine (in Canada) complained every year due to how their evangelical church made them feel at Christmas…….throwing cheap presents at them without any regard to what they actually need or want. It is not fun needing charity. North America has a very un-Christian view of charity giving. We should do all we can to AVOID humiliating people…..they are suffering enough already. How about reinforcing social safety nets and raising the minimum wage, so that more people are able to support themselves and live decently?
Mormonism is just a big fraternity under the guise of Christianity. Ripped off masonic temple ceremonies centered around giving MEN power and glory with lots of family values and culty shit.. Great discourse! Always love hearing from John Larsen and Carah, you are stunning! I feel like you've really blossomed and stepped into your power. You seem so confident, balanced, and grounded in this episode. Great job y'all :)
Great podcast! Bone density 😂 I experienced gender discrimination removing my name from the church records. I received a letter from the church office saying it was done but years later visiting teachers let me know I was still a member. The church office said it was because the priesthood holder in my home was a member! So we had to write a letter together.
My husband was raised in the church and he and his 6 brothers were dependent on the church to feed them, clothe them, etc. We were just talking about whether or not to teach our son about Santa...because when he was given gifts from Santa, the gifts weren't as good as the gifts santa gave to the other kids...why? His parents are still serving in callings in the church that they are too old to do (so they get help from their jack mormon sons). For a few years I thought they were getting paid for these jobs....I learned later that's not the case. I wish they felt free to say no.
I made sure "Santa" brought things such as clothes, coats, etc. and my husband and I gave them the toys, games, etc. From a selfish viewpoint I did it because it is hard to be grateful to a myth. I wanted them to be grateful to us. But another reason was because as a teacher I dreaded when some kids came in the day after Christmas vacation bragging about new iPads, video games, bicycles, etc. while there were other children who would sit in silence because their parents couldn't afford to buy them anything but socks and mittens. How unfair. I refused to be a part of it.
Oh my God the Church's financial practices are worth every F-bomb you dropped, John L, and more! I super appreciated your rant on this and panel's comments!
I never thought about the fact that women's only purpose is considered to be making babies, but Adam is made by men. That is such a good point, and it's really crazy now that you've pointed it out. If women just exist to make new people, but men can make new people when they're gods, why create women at all? :P It just makes no sense.
In the course of my career as a business owner, I've run into a lot of Mormon men who will refuse to acknowledge me when I'm trying to negotiate contracts with them. Some have literally talked right through me to my lead engineer. If they find out that my lead engineer is my husband, it gets worse. I've dropped potential clients for that sort of behavior only to have them go behind my back to talk to my husband, who can't create those contracts because I'm sole owner. Evangelicals can be almost as bad but they'll generally deal with me directly, if poorly.
As a ward clerk almost thirty years ago, i sat in on a Bishop's disciplinary council regarding the sexual conduct of a single sister in the ward. I watched and recorded as the Bishop and his Councilors grilled this lady. They got into details. They shamed her. She got to a point where she was weeping liberally. Her shoulders were heaving up and down as she lost her composure. It was one of the most cruel things I had ever experienced all under the trappings of men inspired by the God of Creation. Now I had served in several Bishoprics and saw kinder approaches from time to time. Overall the process was condescending and hypocritical. Their pride and hubris were unkind an over the top. Courts of LOVE? I think not. This was the last of many disciplinary courts that I sat in on, but it was the last. The next day I contacted the Bishop and instructed him to release me as I could no longer participate in such a toxic system. To this day I am in awe that men continue to perpetuate this system. It doesn't say much to our species. These procedures are an abomination. We humans seem to want to judge and justify "purifying" the body politic. Any system that perpetuates such a toxic worldview needs to reconsider their ways.
I’m 54 and have been questioning women’s roles and exclusion since I was in YW. Then when I was a leader in YW I went out of my way to alter lessons so that women would be spotlighted rather than only men. I’m currently on my own journey of questioning, but I’ve been bothered by this for years! Great episode.
I was part of a family who would "dingdong ditch" Christmas presents when I was little. We would run and hide. I thought it was the best part of christmas! My mind is literally blown as an adult looking back. Thank you for sharing. I see more perspectives now.
100% we were in a financial situation where we had a lot of needs. We got lots of crap. It creates more work. We were "gifted" a surround sound system because we were not in need of. SO THEN I cleaned around it in the box for years thinking my husband wanted it. Years later after dealing with it in the road the I had to throw it out. All things that come in your home take energy. If it's not needed it is a drain not help. Clothes was another thing. Hand me downs is a joke. 3 bags of clothes for 2 things and now I have my clothes that needs taken away and theirs too.
SO REFRESHING and honest. John Larsen rocks as do the 3 women on this excellent podcast. JD did an excellent job on the production/behind the scenes. Also wanted to say that after listening to this and the recent Gender Dysphoria podcast, Mormon Stories is one of the safest spaces on the internet.
I don’t know how I missed this episode till now, but glad I did as it was the most helpful and revealing thing for me to hear and experience at this current stage in my life. Thank you to the panel and all the minds and hands that contributed in making this episode. I started listening to Mormon stories to scratch the itch of my curiosity about the reason my parents are the way they are. I didn’t think I was nearly as affected by the church since I’d stopped going in my mid teens. But, the more I listen the more I realise the structure of the church and all the reasons it’s problematic are identical to the structure and problematic nature of my family and my childhood and all my relationships and interactions with my Mormon and non Mormon siblings, bio dad, mom, and stepdad. And finally, the very same problematic nature instilled in my and my expectations and assumptions of what I could and couldn’t expect from the world and it’s treatment towards me as a woman. This podcast continues to be Relevant, Helpful, challenging, and promotes Self discovery and growth- in hopes that as individuals gaining that personal growth might come together to demand change and set a new progressive approach to how the church, members, non members, people as a whole can be better humans by our actions and not just thru appearances (aka- the church) Thank you thank you for all the healing you’ve brought to me that I didn’t know I needed! I’m a better human for it!
Me 🤷♀️ always leaving stake leadership meeting in the role of second counselor in the stake relief society windering why we were only granted 5 to 10 minutes to "report" on the well-being of over 50% of the church's congregants. And probably, well over 50% of the actual participants. Soon after voicing this observation to the male priesthood leader we reported to 🙋♀️, I received a new calling.
My mom always said that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites and you don't need to go to church to pray. So that's what I did. I grew up in SoCal, and by age 18, I was driving semi-trucks in LA. Being a pretty white woman with long blond hair didn't help. Men didn't treat me very well. When I became pregnant in my 30s, I became a single mom. In my 40s, I wanted to find a church to help me be closer to God. While attending a university, I took courses in world religion and Christianity. I also put my son in a private Lutheran school. When I found out that they didn't let my son outside to play with the other kids, I took him out of that school. ALL religions hold women down. I still pray sometimes. I'm turning 65 next week, and I never did get married, which I find hard to believe. I sure did raise a good son who has never smoked or drank, nor has he gotten in trouble with the law. As Americans, we can live very different lifestyles, and it's fascinating. Great episode. Thanks 🌻Just like to add that I thought I've heard everything but the ballgag comment had me rolling in laughter.
People defending the church will say “lds women have lots of responsibility” or “the women in my ward do so much!” Lol you let the women do a bunch of labor for you?? How nice. I mean yeah they’ll heap responsibility and assignments on you all day but they won’t give you an ounce of actual power to make your own decisions. Responsibility disguised as power is common in controlling organizations. I was a ward mission leader and was tasked to make a “ward mission plan.” I said in ward council that the ward mission plan was to follow the savior and that if people have questions to point them to the New Testament and Preach My Gospel. Well that didn’t go over well. They insisted I come up with a plan. I had the RESPONSIBILITY of making a ward mission plan. I didn’t have the POWER to say what that plan would actually look like. Even though I was ward mission leader my senior officers made all the decisions.
John Larsen is my favorite regular guest, I learn so much from him. I feel like a lot of interviews I gain a lot of insight into individual experiences and the emotional landscape of Mormonism, John really digs into specifics about the texts in a way that aligns with my brain and I always learn things I’ve never heard before.
I went to Mormon Stories website to donate to this particular monthly series (donated to the regular funding last month) but I don't see the tab for Mormon Expressions that Carah mentions at the end?
Just wanted to reiterate the comment I made to someone else. John is not being dramatic here. These things really happen, people just don't talk about it or they tell themselves at was one person, not the church system and culture. We were shamed and blamed by the bishop and told we had to give up our phones and TV (the only refuge we had for our mental health with what was going on in our family at the time) in order to get help with food. As young girls, we were blamed for our father's abusive behavior and for the fact that he had stopped working. The only escape we had was watching a movie or show at the end of the day, and the bishop wanted to smash our faces in the ground and make us feel even more hopeless before he would help us with food. Before then, we had been upper middle class and paid lots of tithing to the church. I always paid tithing and added money for welfare/relief out of my allowance as a young child. The way we were treated when we went to the bishop seeking help and safety during abuse was traumatic. And he was generally a great bishop, otherwise.
This is triggering but empowering at the same time. It's making me feel bolder, too. I really really wear my "lazy learner" label with great pride. It's an honour to be in such exmo company.
We love you John Larsen, we need more men like you in the world. Because men have the power, we can’t solve this issue with only the women talking about it and working on it. We need men who feel like you to stop being silent and add your voices to ours.
Amen. It would do the brethren good to take a page out of Sister Achenbach’s book and practice the Platinum Rule. Their Assumptions are dogmas of their version of the Golden Rule. Sister Sam, never preachy, always coach[y]. Sister Hoe, bringin the calm nuance. That was Pro. You walk your talk John. You too, John. That was edifying
This is similar to evangelical sects of Christianity, though thankfully they don’t all haul people in front of a tribunal. They share the common thread of keeping male power and authority intact and keeping women out.
Haven’t finished watching yet but a thought about our mother in heaven just occurred to me. In Mormonism it makes sense because of polygamy, that there could very well be not just one but a gazillion heavenly mothers. We know we pray to our ONE Heavenly Father but which heavenly mom? Maybe that’s why the leaders really don’t want to talk about heavenly mom. There are just too many(?) It’s all ridiculous nonsense but I thought I’d ask anyway.
Excellent episode. It could've been 12 hours. My only criticism is that I don't remember hearing anything about transgender discrimination. Maybe that's a 12 hour podcast on its own.
I never twigged that women don’t wear skirt suits like the men, because that might give an air or authority! Cardigan or jumper with a skirt but never a blazer like a man! Such a subtle thing but of course we read that as power unbalance.
I met some really wonderful people in the local ward. I feel the hierarchy tries to control these beautiful p, smart people by keeping them busy and codependent, for lack of better words. Great folk, bad doctrine etc.
With respect, The world continues to be deceived. Only when people recognize and cease the imposition of one's will onto another will the humanity evolve for the better. When oppression ends, love will begin. Until such time the world will forever remain convinced the old ways are loving ways.
@@jamescrane6583 excellent assessment. And this is where i think the usa was to deviate and set a different course. Where in the past one was expected to obey, after 1776 the expectation was to make 'educated decisions.' That transition never happened
Listening to the podcast but came here just to type LOL at Carah's joke about phoning the temple desk to look up the name for resurrection 🤣🤣🤣 dying (pun intended)
it gets sicker, lights off in the bishop’s office, conveniently large, listening to my true confessions. more than once. i naively didn’t put it together until years later. he must have loved my working girlfriend’s confession. she was catholic. we got pushed into an “inspired” wedding, performed by him. 1986 ‘87. she got to wear white, formally worn by his wife. my girlfriend split, i had to get a complicated divorce. st george, utah
66 minutes. You know, I never looked around during sacrament to see who was taking it and who wasn't. Apparently I was doing the Christian thing rather than the Pharisee thing.
While this subject is dear to my heart as the way I feel I was treated as a woman in church was a massive shelf item, I didn't feel the subject was done justice. IMO womens voices were not elevated by having a discussion lead by a man. I absolutely love John Larsons contribution to MSP but for me, this felt like more of "man at centre, women as add on contributors". These 3 women are strong women but I felt their experiences and that of other women weren't amplified through this format. The Mormonism live episode where Maven (and another woman whose name currently escapes me) held the room. Bill Reel and RFM were the support act. For this episode of MSP I thought it was an opportunity missed.
So, we're listening to this and when you mention that we don't give women the courtesy of their middle initial, my husband says, "No we just give them the middle finger." Pretty much...
I hated asking & getting food from the storehouse because I have a restricted diet. Like I could get maybe 4 things from the storehouse. If you have any dietary restrictions you're screwed. And local food stamps don't pay enough to survive a week.
I think the middle initial thing has more to do with having so much nepotism in the higher ranks (same last and first names) than exerting authority. Not to say it didn't end up as an authority play, but if I had to guess, that is why it started...
If someone thinks that women are weaker based because of their bone density I'll tell you there are some women that they won't want to mess with out there.
It's funny that women don't have discernment, when Joseph specifically gave the women of the Relief Society these keys: "the keys of the kingdom are about to be given to them that they may be able to detect everything false, as well as to the Elders... I now turn the key to you in the name of God." -- Apr 24 Relief Society meeting Of course, at the same meeting he also said, "I Prophecy that before ten years shall roll round, the queens of the earth shall come and pay their respects to this Society--they shall come with their millions and shall contribute of their abundance for the relief of the poor." So, I guess you have to take everything he said with a big grain of salt.
One of the carry overs from the early days of the Jesus story (and the one that makes the most sense), is when the disciples would be in the presence of Jesus, women were held in higher esteem, and Jesus was constantly whispering the deeper mysteries to them. The apostles, namely Peter, became increasingly jealous and began a campaign of female alienation from the inner circle, to outright banishment from inclusion as apostles. To this very day the idea of women as Priesthood holders, and elevation to higher callings is reserved exclusively for males. Again, more evidence that Joseph Smith copied corrupted dogmas of an apostate church into his alleged "Restoration".
@@jamescrane6583 .. Let me assist your understanding of the prominence of women at any given time during the time of Jesus (whether you believe them allegorical or literal - doesn't matter to me to illustrate the point). First we must remove the contemporary blinders of gender issues which plague the male dominated suits that control Mormon thinking. I will try and be brief and reference what I say... Mary Magdalene as one of the women who traveled with Jesus and helped support his ministry "out of their resources", 𝘢𝘣𝘴𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘴𝘶𝘱𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘮𝘦𝘯 𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘤𝘪𝘱𝘭𝘦𝘴). Which is repeated Mark 16. In all the four canonical gospels, Mary Magdalene was a witness to the crucifixion of Jesus; in the Synoptic Gospels she was also present at his burial. All the four gospels identified her, either alone or as a member of a larger group of women, which include Jesus' mother. 𝘈𝘨𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘮𝘦𝘯 𝘥𝘪𝘴𝘤𝘪𝘱𝘭𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘣𝘴𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘥𝘶𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘴𝘦 𝘪𝘮𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘵 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘰𝘧 𝘑𝘦𝘴𝘶𝘴. Mary Magdalene is known in some Christian traditions as the "apostle to the apostles". Mary Magdalene is a central figure in later Gnostic Christian writings, including the Dialogue of the Savior, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Phillip, and the Gospel of Mary. These texts portray Mary Magdalene as an apostle, as Jesus's closest and most beloved disciple and the only one who truly understood his teachings. In the Gnostic Texts or Gnostic gospels, Mary Magdalene's closeness to Jesus results in tension with another disciple, Peter, due to her sex and Peter's envy of the special teachings given to her. In the Gospel of Philip's text she is described the disciple Jesus loved the most and the one Jesus kissed on the mouth, which has led some people to conclude that she and Jesus were in a relationship.
(1) His disciples said to him, “When will the kingdom come?” (2) “It will not come by watching for it. (3) It will not be said,193 ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘Look, there it is.’ (4) Rather, the Father’s kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people do not see it.”194 114 (1) Simon Peter said to them, “Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life.” (2) Jesus said, “Look, I shall guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. (3) For195 every female who makes herself male will enter heaven’s kingdom.”196 The Gospel of Thomas Peter who was the rock upon which Jesus' religion was built possessed a belief that women were not worthy of life! Jesus wanted women to also have the opportunity. Jesus brother James was the person Jesus said to follow in Jesus' absence! The apostles were jealous of Jesus' relationship with Mary and wanted her excluded! Think their part in establishing the Gospel had anything to do with excluding women's rights????
If checks are given. Who should provide the support and is there a process in the decision process of how much money is given? Would receiving financial counselling be a bad thing? Should a religious organisation be responsible to provide financial education? The tone of this discussion would lead me to think the opinion would be that Jesus the nasty man he was was so insensitive to forgive sin and how dare he heal people in front of others he should have asked the sick person first on how that wanted to be healed. Please don't get me wrong. You have my support (not that you want or need it). Just seems like leaving one echo chamber to enter another. Both as toxic as the other.
Is this a man problem or a system problem? Would this problem still be in place is the system was based on females being the one "in charge"? So many example given seem like these are terrible men. I agree the situations are terrible but I can see the same thing happening if it was a man or a women in the "leader" role.
I've been in MULTIPLE RS Presidency, being the President 4X on ward and stake level and I NEVER had a counselor over me, it was always the Bishop or SP. I feel like you are discussing issues that are cultural and not doctrine or in the handbook. I have seen women in the church be pall bearers- outside of UTAH. Women wear bright colors to be seen. Think Queen Elizabeth and her reasoning for it. I just stopped this video to go look at the Gen Con Sat session and all the women are listed with their middle names and Eyring introduced them with their middle initial. Also, 1 in blue, 2 in black, 2 in gray and 1 green and 1 brown 1 red hard to see the exact colors if they are gray or black... Sorry, today's panel is not for me. I try to listen to get different perspectives, when I know that the panel is far far far to the left of me, but today is not my cup of tea. But, y'all enjoy.
Usually love JL episodes but this episodes seems to just be pandering and pushing woke as far as possible. I’m about as liberal as they come and this is a bit much.
"Too many white guys talking..." C'mon man. In deconstructing Mormonism my understanding of the human race and our position in the cosmos has thankfully been tremendously broadened. It seems silly to focus on my genetics as though they make the tiniest bit of difference. If I am to highlight gender, race, sex, ethnicity, invariably, discrimination will result.
Nope. The only way to avoid being racist is to work continually to find where you're racist. America is racist down to it's bones. It's the water we swim in. And thinking of we stop taking about it it'll go away no it won't. You as a white person won't see it anymore because it doesn't affect you.
@@jessibell-pj8dx I appreciate your perspective, but I could not agree less. Segmenting and galvanizing folks around their immutable genetic characteristics has never worked in a society ever, rather, this has always been the recipe for discrimination, not integration.
@@ozymandias6743 maybe you're not understanding what I'm trying to say. The differences are already there. And America is already a hugely unequal, racist, sexist, homophobic, and transphobic place. These things already are. Integration is a racist concept of the past. Nobody needs to integrate into anything. As a society what we need is the ability to be a kind and coexistent society. Allowing for a plurality of people. But we're not. America is built in racism, homophobia, misogyny and transphobia. We cannot realize the society we all deserve if everyone simply stops talking about inequality. That approach is exactly the way the status quo remains.
@@jessibell-pj8dx I think I understand you, I just do not agree with you. The USA is not racist, generally speaking. Some people are, for sure. My black friends' prefer this country to those of their ancestors (Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, Ghana, etc). Rwanda is more racist than the USA. Mozambique is more racist than the USA. The Dominican Republic is a hundred times more racist than the USA... The psychological artifice of identifying people and assigning value or distinctions on the basis of their genetics is simply a bad formula. I do not really know the ethnic composite of most of my friends or co-workers. I don't see any reason why I should give a f*** where their forefathers lived. I'm sorry, no good thing in our society has ever come from cohorting people off according to their genetics for some rank ordering.
@@ozymandias6743 I'm not saying anyone should rank anyone. But that is the system in America. I would recommend reading white fragility. It is an amazing book. It showed me the ways I am racist. The way America is still racist to this day. As a trans woman I know very well the feeling that things really aren't that bad for others. Before I transitioned I had no idea how sexist America as a nation is. These oppressions are real. Saying your black friends prefer here to somewhere else isn't absolution for here it's an indictment of there. If you value growing and learning how others are suffering and how you can help I recommend reading and listening to those suffering. If you're content to ignore it and continue on your merry way that is also your prerogative. But I think the worst thing you can do is come into a space where a black woman is describing her struggles and all you manage to bring to the table is the belief she made it too much about race.
This guy has it all wrong. Men have the priesthood. To be able to bless anything and someone you have to have the priesthood. I’m a LDS woman and I have never felt or been made to think that I am lesser than a man. If anything it’s right the opposite. Motherhood and women in general are put on pedestals. I have never wanted to have the priesthood. I have way to much on my plate with children, house, husband, callings,etc. in fact my first bishop often joked that the Lord gave the priesthood to men to give them something to do and to try and humble themselves.
I will type my comment like this episode. I umm, miss, umm, the other John,,, aaaa. I like him ummm, very much aaaa. This just seemed like aaaaa, ummm, a throw off ummmm, podcast aaaa.
A little too much emphasis on race. It is what it is. Stop putting so much emphasis on your race or anyone elses race. Just put out good content regardless of race, color, creed, etc. You're a "white" male, you didn't choose it, you were born that way. Sometimes there's a little too much wokeness going on here instead of focusing on the contect of the podcast, which is what brings us here to listen. Just giving some feedback here. Thanks
Clearly you are a racist Trumpanzee like 80% of Utah. Opposing racism and homophobia isn't wokeness. Only fascist Trump fellators use the term wokeness. Just giving some feedback here
You are speaking with the privilege of being a white male. The fact that you would comment this is a good indication you need to listen to more stories and podcasts of this nature.
![KSI - Dirty [Official Visualiser]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VoDh1h1dPUE/mqdefault.jpg)
The story about her questioning the branch president strikes a chord. When I was relief society president in a YSA ward, I spoke up (very respectfully) in ward council with an alternative opinion when the bishop suggested something. It got a bit quiet and awkward. It just hadn’t occurred to me that I wasn’t allowed to offer another opinion. The EQ Pres shared his opinion often. Later the bishop told me that a SISTER had come up to him and said “I can’t believe she challenged you like that in ward council. Are you going to talk to her about it?” (What is mind blowing is that women are often the most vehement about women knowing their place in the church…). At the end of the day the men were in the council to have a council. I guess I was just there for show. My opinion wasn’t wanted. Just smile and nod sister, forget the fact that you are here representing HALF the ward.
John is so right about how when women are excluded from leadership we all lose out.
I love Channel. She's a great new addition to the team and she brings new perspectives to the podcast.
@@jamescrane6583 you're a man! Duh!
@@jamescrane6583 you've never been given golden plates by an angel either, but you can relate to that and find that credible?
Heartbreakingly accurate. I kept fighting back tears, partly because it's all true and I've lived it, but also because someone is FINALLY addressing it, hearing and seeing us. Even in post-mo groups, this topic tends to not get a lot of mention. Thank you!
I'm agender but I was assigned female at birth (and I generally have a feminine gender presentation), and I was raised and socialized as a woman, so I still identify with womanhood in a way. I relate to this topic so much! Excellent summary of the misogynistic problems.
The pressure to be married is INTENSE in mormonism. It was very rough for me because I'm gay, and trying to force myself to date men was a nightmare. (One I'm thankfully no longer living, since I'm an exmo now and free to be my queer self \^.^/) But in the past I just kept watching the days and months and years go by, feeling like if I didn't get married soon I would miss my chance. Ummm, I'm only 29 lol, and this line of thinking started around age 24, which is soooo young! In reality I have tons of time, but the culture made me feel like an old maid.
I also don't really think I want kids (I may change my mind later in life, but for now I only want to be a dog mom :P) and not wanting kids in Utah is practically a crime. The gasps of horror you'd get if you dare say you don't want to be a mom...yikes 🙄 Women are not just sex toys and baby making machines, and I'm really glad to be done with an organization like the mormon church that treats women that way.
If there is a God theyre probably agender too. That makes most sense to me
My best friend is asexual and the way people react in the church when they find out is honestly hilarious. They get so confused that she doesn’t want kids, doesn’t want to have sex and isn’t “tempted to break the le of chastity,” and that she isn’t going to get married and just put up with occasional sex because they feel like that’s somehow the right thing to do. I’ve even heard a couple of people say she should marry a gay guy so they can both keep their covenants- I’m just glad she got out and now is a proud panromantic ace who won’t put up with other peoples bullshit 😁
@@virginianielsen3480 they need YSA wards, Young Single Asexual.
@@Zodiacalesotericmatrix dead 💀 it’s ridiculous that the church basically expects you to be asexual until you get married, then you’re supposed to proverbially flip a switch and become a sexual being and have lots of kids
What’s agender? What’s does it mean you were assigned female? Were you born w female or male organs or both & is that why u say you are both? I’m so confused but do not want to be disrespectful at all so I apologize in advance if it comes across rudely at all.
When my brother in law died, his widow didn't speak at the service, nor could she be in the room for the LDS version of last rites. It made me mad.
The discussion on sexual intimacy really jumped out at me! BIC in 1954 and married a convert RM in 1978. Temple marriage, we were temple workers, Relief Society president yada yada yada. We left the church in 1992 with three young children when we realized the church wasn't true. After we left the church our sex life improved tremendously. The church is really messed up and hampers intimacy in marriage at best and destroys marriages at worst.
The relatively small Mormon cult has by far the best ex-members community offering by far the best and most helpful therapeutic and educational content on social media.
Well done, Mormon Stories Podcast, for your excellent work! ❤️
🤯 "You're black, he's black!?!?" Absolutely no words. Once was "paired" in a calling with another lovely woman. Much younger than me, grew up in another state, had a different profession, etc. I was told the bishopric thought we would get along. We were both Hispanic and Spanish-speaking. There's not a good enough eye roll emoji for this one.
I loved this. As a woman and a post-mo I resonated with almost every point. I also loved when John Larsen talked about othering the poor. I see that as one of the biggest problems in the U.S.
And in the UK sadly.
Imagine in third world countries…you have no idea…
"Just give 'em money. That's what make the world go round. Just take some of that hundred billion f*cking dollars and just cut them a check. Quit playing these games with beans and rice."
Meeting with the Bishop in high school destroyed years of my life and confidence. It is so wrong.
The part of this episode when they’re talking about the Bishop storehouse and how they make you beg and grovel made my stomach churn. How disgusting. Disgusting. That’s abhorrent. Absolutely unacceptable.
The bishop doesn’t make you beg. We needed help from the store hoard was treated with nothing but respect and gave us whatever we needed.
Don’t always believe what people that have left the church or is disgruntled with the LDS church has to say.
@@selfimprovement.1925 congratulations, you had a good experience. That doesn’t mean that when others have a bad experience, it’s automatically not true.
@@selfimprovement.1925We were shamed, blamed, and told we had to give up our phones and TV (the only refuge we had for our mental health with what was going on in our family at the time) in order to get help with food. As young girls, we were blamed for our father's abusive behavior and for the fact that he had stopped working. The only escape we had was watching a movie or show at the end of the day, and the bishop wanted to smash our faces in the ground and make us feel even more hopeless before he would help us with food. Before then, we had been upper middle class and paid lots of tithing to the church. I always paid tithing and added money for welfare/relief out of my allowance as a young child. The way we were treated when we went to the bishop seeking help and safety during abuse was traumatic. And he was generally a great bishop, otherwise.
I, a woman, as a youth, would say, "If it weren't for the church, I'd be a pot head." Because I thought that was super bad.
Around 1:50 mns: The humiliation of needing charity. Right on about the culture of humiliating poor people in America. It is not just an LDS culture. It is the same humiliation for everyone applying for welfare, and for other Christian denominations in regards to offering Christmas presents and charity. Friends of mine (in Canada) complained every year due to how their evangelical church made them feel at Christmas…….throwing cheap presents at them without any regard to what they actually need or want. It is not fun needing charity. North America has a very un-Christian view of charity giving. We should do all we can to AVOID humiliating people…..they are suffering enough already. How about reinforcing social safety nets and raising the minimum wage, so that more people are able to support themselves and live decently?
Mormonism is just a big fraternity under the guise of Christianity. Ripped off masonic temple ceremonies centered around giving MEN power and glory with lots of family values and culty shit.. Great discourse! Always love hearing from John Larsen and Carah, you are stunning! I feel like you've really blossomed and stepped into your power. You seem so confident, balanced, and grounded in this episode. Great job y'all :)
Great podcast! Bone density 😂 I experienced gender discrimination removing my name from the church records. I received a letter from the church office saying it was done but years later visiting teachers let me know I was still a member. The church office said it was because the priesthood holder in my home was a member! So we had to write a letter together.
My husband was raised in the church and he and his 6 brothers were dependent on the church to feed them, clothe them, etc. We were just talking about whether or not to teach our son about Santa...because when he was given gifts from Santa, the gifts weren't as good as the gifts santa gave to the other kids...why? His parents are still serving in callings in the church that they are too old to do (so they get help from their jack mormon sons). For a few years I thought they were getting paid for these jobs....I learned later that's not the case. I wish they felt free to say no.
I made sure "Santa" brought things such as clothes, coats, etc. and my husband and I gave them the toys, games, etc. From a selfish viewpoint I did it because it is hard to be grateful to a myth. I wanted them to be grateful to us. But another reason was because as a teacher I dreaded when some kids came in the day after Christmas vacation bragging about new iPads, video games, bicycles, etc. while there were other children who would sit in silence because their parents couldn't afford to buy them anything but socks and mittens. How unfair. I refused to be a part of it.
Oh my God the Church's financial practices are worth every F-bomb you dropped, John L, and more! I super appreciated your rant on this and panel's comments!
I was released from a calling for telling ward council members were out of line.
Omg Carah, I’m a Rachel too. This episode has been so validating. Thank you.
Sounds like folks are given similar names for all that celestial marriage biz.
I never thought about the fact that women's only purpose is considered to be making babies, but Adam is made by men. That is such a good point, and it's really crazy now that you've pointed it out. If women just exist to make new people, but men can make new people when they're gods, why create women at all? :P It just makes no sense.
That’s not what the church teaches. Women are much more of worth than that.
Well done to the entire staff for another salient episode.
In the course of my career as a business owner, I've run into a lot of Mormon men who will refuse to acknowledge me when I'm trying to negotiate contracts with them. Some have literally talked right through me to my lead engineer. If they find out that my lead engineer is my husband, it gets worse. I've dropped potential clients for that sort of behavior only to have them go behind my back to talk to my husband, who can't create those contracts because I'm sole owner. Evangelicals can be almost as bad but they'll generally deal with me directly, if poorly.
As a ward clerk almost thirty years ago, i sat in on a Bishop's disciplinary council regarding the sexual conduct of a single sister in the ward. I watched and recorded as the Bishop and his Councilors grilled this lady. They got into details. They shamed her. She got to a point where she was weeping liberally. Her shoulders were heaving up and down as she lost her composure. It was one of the most cruel things I had ever experienced all under the trappings of men inspired by the God of Creation. Now I had served in several Bishoprics and saw kinder approaches from time to time. Overall the process was condescending and hypocritical. Their pride and hubris were unkind an over the top. Courts of LOVE? I think not. This was the last of many disciplinary courts that I sat in on, but it was the last. The next day I contacted the Bishop and instructed him to release me as I could no longer participate in such a toxic system. To this day I am in awe that men continue to perpetuate this system. It doesn't say much to our species. These procedures are an abomination. We humans seem to want to judge and justify "purifying" the body politic. Any system that perpetuates such a toxic worldview needs to reconsider their ways.
Its masonic. Masons treat the women same or worse.
I’m 54 and have been questioning women’s roles and exclusion since I was in YW. Then when I was a leader in YW I went out of my way to alter lessons so that women would be spotlighted rather than only men. I’m currently on my own journey of questioning, but I’ve been bothered by this for years! Great episode.
I was part of a family who would "dingdong ditch" Christmas presents when I was little. We would run and hide. I thought it was the best part of christmas! My mind is literally blown as an adult looking back. Thank you for sharing. I see more perspectives now.
100% we were in a financial situation where we had a lot of needs. We got lots of crap. It creates more work. We were "gifted" a surround sound system because we were not in need of. SO THEN I cleaned around it in the box for years thinking my husband wanted it. Years later after dealing with it in the road the I had to throw it out. All things that come in your home take energy. If it's not needed it is a drain not help. Clothes was another thing. Hand me downs is a joke. 3 bags of clothes for 2 things and now I have my clothes that needs taken away and theirs too.
SO REFRESHING and honest. John Larsen rocks as do the 3 women on this excellent podcast. JD did an excellent job on the production/behind the scenes. Also wanted to say that after listening to this and the recent Gender Dysphoria podcast, Mormon Stories is one of the safest spaces on the internet.
@@jamescrane6583 Can you give examples of what you think is outdated?
@@jamescrane6583 thanks for more details!
By the way, this is one of the most important dialogs on You Tube right now. Kudos to all of you for your contributions.
CARAH!!!! I'm a Rachel too! Luckily it's not one of the worst names!
Does the most righteous man get all the Rachel's
I don’t know how I missed this episode till now, but glad I did as it was the most helpful and revealing thing for me to hear and experience at this current stage in my life. Thank you to the panel and all the minds and hands that contributed in making this episode.
I started listening to Mormon stories to scratch the itch of my curiosity about the reason my parents are the way they are. I didn’t think I was nearly as affected by the church since I’d stopped going in my mid teens. But, the more I listen the more I realise the structure of the church and all the reasons it’s problematic are identical to the structure and problematic nature of my family and my childhood and all my relationships and interactions with my Mormon and non Mormon siblings, bio dad, mom, and stepdad. And finally, the very same problematic nature instilled in my and my expectations and assumptions of what I could and couldn’t expect from the world and it’s treatment towards me as a woman. This podcast continues to be Relevant, Helpful, challenging, and promotes Self discovery and growth- in hopes that as individuals gaining that personal growth might come together to demand change and set a new progressive approach to how the church, members, non members, people as a whole can be better humans by our actions and not just thru appearances (aka- the church)
Thank you thank you for all the healing you’ve brought to me that I didn’t know I needed! I’m a better human for it!
Me 🤷♀️ always leaving stake leadership meeting in the role of second counselor in the stake relief society windering why we were only granted 5 to 10 minutes to "report" on the well-being of over 50% of the church's congregants. And probably, well over 50% of the actual participants. Soon after voicing this observation to the male priesthood leader we reported to 🙋♀️, I received a new calling.
My mom always said that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites and you don't need to go to church to pray. So that's what I did. I grew up in SoCal, and by age 18, I was driving semi-trucks in LA. Being a pretty white woman with long blond hair didn't help. Men didn't treat me very well. When I became pregnant in my 30s, I became a single mom. In my 40s, I wanted to find a church to help me be closer to God. While attending a university, I took courses in world religion and Christianity. I also put my son in a private Lutheran school. When I found out that they didn't let my son outside to play with the other kids, I took him out of that school.
ALL religions hold women down. I still pray sometimes. I'm turning 65 next week, and I never did get married, which I find hard to believe. I sure did raise a good son who has never smoked or drank, nor has he gotten in trouble with the law. As Americans, we can live very different lifestyles, and it's fascinating. Great episode. Thanks 🌻Just like to add that I thought I've heard everything but the ballgag comment had me rolling in laughter.
My new favorite trio!!
OMG and chanel! I'm so happy to see her back she was so great on the last panel I saw her on. So excited to listen to this
People defending the church will say “lds women have lots of responsibility” or “the women in my ward do so much!”
Lol you let the women do a bunch of labor for you?? How nice. I mean yeah they’ll heap responsibility and assignments on you all day but they won’t give you an ounce of actual power to make your own decisions.
Responsibility disguised as power is common in controlling organizations.
I was a ward mission leader and was tasked to make a “ward mission plan.” I said in ward council that the ward mission plan was to follow the savior and that if people have questions to point them to the New Testament and Preach My Gospel. Well that didn’t go over well. They insisted I come up with a plan. I had the RESPONSIBILITY of making a ward mission plan. I didn’t have the POWER to say what that plan would actually look like. Even though I was ward mission leader my senior officers made all the decisions.
This was great! Voices of women and those for women.
John Larsen is my favorite regular guest, I learn so much from him. I feel like a lot of interviews I gain a lot of insight into individual experiences and the emotional landscape of Mormonism, John really digs into specifics about the texts in a way that aligns with my brain and I always learn things I’ve never heard before.
I went to Mormon Stories website to donate to this particular monthly series (donated to the regular funding last month) but I don't see the tab for Mormon Expressions that Carah mentions at the end?
Just wanted to reiterate the comment I made to someone else. John is not being dramatic here. These things really happen, people just don't talk about it or they tell themselves at was one person, not the church system and culture.
We were shamed and blamed by the bishop and told we had to give up our phones and TV (the only refuge we had for our mental health with what was going on in our family at the time) in order to get help with food. As young girls, we were blamed for our father's abusive behavior and for the fact that he had stopped working. The only escape we had was watching a movie or show at the end of the day, and the bishop wanted to smash our faces in the ground and make us feel even more hopeless before he would help us with food. Before then, we had been upper middle class and paid lots of tithing to the church. I always paid tithing and added money for welfare/relief out of my allowance as a young child. The way we were treated when we went to the bishop seeking help and safety during abuse was traumatic. And he was generally a great bishop, otherwise.
Loved this episode! Thank you all!
John Larsen is wonderful.
This is triggering but empowering at the same time. It's making me feel bolder, too. I really really wear my "lazy learner" label with great pride. It's an honour to be in such exmo company.
We love you John Larsen, we need more men like you in the world. Because men have the power, we can’t solve this issue with only the women talking about it and working on it. We need men who feel like you to stop being silent and add your voices to ours.
Amen. It would do the brethren good to take a page out of Sister Achenbach’s book and practice the Platinum Rule. Their Assumptions are dogmas of their version of the Golden Rule. Sister Sam, never preachy, always coach[y]. Sister Hoe, bringin the calm nuance. That was Pro. You walk your talk John. You too, John. That was edifying
I can't find the Tom Phillips episode, am i spelling the name wrong?
73 minutes. Excellent point!
104 minutes. BOOM! Well said John.
This is similar to evangelical sects of Christianity, though thankfully they don’t all haul people in front of a tribunal. They share the common thread of keeping male power and authority intact and keeping women out.
Haven’t finished watching yet but a thought about our mother in heaven just occurred to me.
In Mormonism it makes sense because of polygamy, that there could very well be not just one but a gazillion heavenly mothers. We know we pray to our ONE Heavenly Father but which heavenly mom? Maybe that’s why the leaders really don’t want to talk about heavenly mom. There are just too many(?)
It’s all ridiculous nonsense but I thought I’d ask anyway.
yes all nonsense
Excellent episode. It could've been 12 hours. My only criticism is that I don't remember hearing anything about transgender discrimination. Maybe that's a 12 hour podcast on its own.
I never twigged that women don’t wear skirt suits like the men, because that might give an air or authority! Cardigan or jumper with a skirt but never a blazer like a man! Such a subtle thing but of course we read that as power unbalance.
Question authority, especially the “General Authority” kind.
I met some really wonderful people in the local ward. I feel the hierarchy tries to control these beautiful p, smart people by keeping them busy and codependent, for lack of better words. Great folk, bad doctrine etc.
With respect, The world continues to be deceived. Only when people recognize and cease the imposition of one's will onto another will the humanity evolve for the better. When oppression ends, love will begin. Until such time the world will forever remain convinced the old ways are loving ways.
@@jamescrane6583 excellent assessment. And this is where i think the usa was to deviate and set a different course. Where in the past one was expected to obey, after 1776 the expectation was to make 'educated decisions.' That transition never happened
Listening to the podcast but came here just to type LOL at Carah's joke about phoning the temple desk to look up the name for resurrection 🤣🤣🤣 dying (pun intended)
it gets sicker, lights off in the bishop’s office, conveniently large, listening to my true confessions. more than once. i naively didn’t put it together until years later. he must have loved my working girlfriend’s confession. she was catholic. we got pushed into an “inspired” wedding, performed by him. 1986 ‘87. she got to wear white, formally worn by his wife. my girlfriend split, i had to get a complicated divorce. st george, utah
66 minutes. You know, I never looked around during sacrament to see who was taking it and who wasn't. Apparently I was doing the Christian thing rather than the Pharisee thing.
Yes Chanel. Spot on.
1:44....The Church is FUCKING SICK...
AGREE
While this subject is dear to my heart as the way I feel I was treated as a woman in church was a massive shelf item, I didn't feel the subject was done justice.
IMO womens voices were not elevated by having a discussion lead by a man.
I absolutely love John Larsons contribution to MSP but for me, this felt like more of "man at centre, women as add on contributors".
These 3 women are strong women but I felt their experiences and that of other women weren't amplified through this format.
The Mormonism live episode where Maven (and another woman whose name currently escapes me) held the room.
Bill Reel and RFM were the support act.
For this episode of MSP I thought it was an opportunity missed.
So, we're listening to this and when you mention that we don't give women the courtesy of their middle initial, my husband says, "No we just give them the middle finger."
Pretty much...
Not true and I have a idle initial
Never heard of a home dedication before.
Where does the fast offering $$$$ go?
My father, a Bishop at the time, had a FEMALE executive secretary!
That's awesome! Women should also be able to serve as clerks too, no reason at all why they can't do those callings!
I hated asking & getting food from the storehouse because I have a restricted diet. Like I could get maybe 4 things from the storehouse. If you have any dietary restrictions you're screwed. And local food stamps don't pay enough to survive a week.
There's a website that has most of the names in a list.
I think the middle initial thing has more to do with having so much nepotism in the higher ranks (same last and first names) than exerting authority. Not to say it didn't end up as an authority play, but if I had to guess, that is why it started...
Chanel I get it - sorry this happened to you. not as difficult as you experience but I have been there
If someone thinks that women are weaker based because of their bone density I'll tell you there are some women that they won't want to mess with out there.
David Archuleta on Coming Out in the Mormon Church. ❤️ ruclips.net/video/PkNez93YNh4/видео.html
It's funny that women don't have discernment, when Joseph specifically gave the women of the Relief Society these keys:
"the keys of the kingdom are about to be given to them that they may be able to detect everything false, as well as to the Elders... I now turn the key to you in the name of God." -- Apr 24 Relief Society meeting
Of course, at the same meeting he also said, "I Prophecy that before ten years shall roll round, the queens of the earth shall come and pay their respects to this Society--they shall come with their millions and shall contribute of their abundance for the relief of the poor." So, I guess you have to take everything he said with a big grain of salt.
One of the carry overs from the early days of the Jesus story (and the one that makes the most sense), is when the disciples would be in the presence of Jesus, women were held in higher esteem, and Jesus was constantly whispering the deeper mysteries to them. The apostles, namely Peter, became increasingly jealous and began a campaign of female alienation from the inner circle, to outright banishment from inclusion as apostles.
To this very day the idea of women as Priesthood holders, and elevation to higher callings is reserved exclusively for males.
Again, more evidence that Joseph Smith copied corrupted dogmas of an apostate church into his alleged "Restoration".
@@jamescrane6583 .. Let me assist your understanding of the prominence of women at any given time during the time of Jesus (whether you believe them allegorical or literal - doesn't matter to me to illustrate the point).
First we must remove the contemporary blinders of gender issues which plague the male dominated suits that control Mormon thinking.
I will try and be brief and reference what I say...
Mary Magdalene as one of the women who traveled with Jesus and helped support his ministry "out of their resources", 𝘢𝘣𝘴𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘴𝘶𝘱𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘮𝘦𝘯 𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘤𝘪𝘱𝘭𝘦𝘴).
Which is repeated Mark 16. In all the four canonical gospels, Mary Magdalene was a witness to the crucifixion of Jesus; in the Synoptic Gospels she was also present at his burial. All the four gospels identified her, either alone or as a member of a larger group of women, which include Jesus' mother. 𝘈𝘨𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘮𝘦𝘯 𝘥𝘪𝘴𝘤𝘪𝘱𝘭𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘣𝘴𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘥𝘶𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘴𝘦 𝘪𝘮𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘵 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘰𝘧 𝘑𝘦𝘴𝘶𝘴.
Mary Magdalene is known in some Christian traditions as the "apostle to the apostles". Mary Magdalene is a central figure in later Gnostic Christian writings, including the Dialogue of the Savior, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Phillip, and the Gospel of Mary.
These texts portray Mary Magdalene as an apostle, as Jesus's closest and most beloved disciple and the only one who truly understood his teachings. In the Gnostic Texts or Gnostic gospels, Mary Magdalene's closeness to Jesus results in tension with another disciple, Peter, due to her sex and Peter's envy of the special teachings given to her. In the Gospel of Philip's text she is described the disciple Jesus loved the most and the one Jesus kissed on the mouth, which has led some people to conclude that she and Jesus were in a relationship.
@@jamescrane6583 .. You are speaking in absolute terms. Let me ask you - 𝘞𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘥𝘰𝘦𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘺𝘰𝘶?
we made ketchup in mesa, az.
Great episodes
53 minutes. FYI women have more testosterone than estrogen. Just saying.
It's the ratios that matter.
Ouch! Should have continued watching before I commented! Thanks John- my point exactly.
(1) His disciples said to him, “When will the kingdom come?” (2) “It will not come by watching for it. (3) It will not be said,193 ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘Look, there it is.’ (4) Rather, the Father’s kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people do not see it.”194 114 (1) Simon Peter said to them, “Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life.” (2) Jesus said, “Look, I shall guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. (3) For195 every female who makes herself male will enter heaven’s kingdom.”196
The Gospel of Thomas
Peter who was the rock upon which Jesus' religion was built possessed a belief that women were not worthy of life! Jesus wanted women to also have the opportunity. Jesus brother James was the person Jesus said to follow in Jesus' absence! The apostles were jealous of Jesus' relationship with Mary and wanted her excluded! Think their part in establishing the Gospel had anything to do with excluding women's rights????
If checks are given.
Who should provide the support and is there a process in the decision process of how much money is given?
Would receiving financial counselling be a bad thing? Should a religious organisation be responsible to provide financial education?
The tone of this discussion would lead me to think the opinion would be that Jesus the nasty man he was was so insensitive to forgive sin and how dare he heal people in front of others he should have asked the sick person first on how that wanted to be healed.
Please don't get me wrong. You have my support (not that you want or need it). Just seems like leaving one echo chamber to enter another. Both as toxic as the other.
What was the point of having these other ladies on when they aren’t even hardly participating?
Only the nose knows. Wow..
Vdumb. Winner.
Is this a man problem or a system problem?
Would this problem still be in place is the system was based on females being the one "in charge"?
So many example given seem like these are terrible men.
I agree the situations are terrible but I can see the same thing happening if it was a man or a women in the "leader" role.
Perhaps, but we'll never know so long as women remain excluded from positions of power within the LDS church.
Thanks for the ear worms Carah.
I've been in MULTIPLE RS Presidency, being the President 4X on ward and stake level and I NEVER had a counselor over me, it was always the Bishop or SP. I feel like you are discussing issues that are cultural and not doctrine or in the handbook. I have seen women in the church be pall bearers- outside of UTAH. Women wear bright colors to be seen. Think Queen Elizabeth and her reasoning for it. I just stopped this video to go look at the Gen Con Sat session and all the women are listed with their middle names and Eyring introduced them with their middle initial. Also, 1 in blue, 2 in black, 2 in gray and 1 green and 1 brown 1 red hard to see the exact colors if they are gray or black... Sorry, today's panel is not for me. I try to listen to get different perspectives, when I know that the panel is far far far to the left of me, but today is not my cup of tea. But, y'all enjoy.
Usually love JL episodes but this episodes seems to just be pandering and pushing woke as far as possible. I’m about as liberal as they come and this is a bit much.
What's the problem with "Woke"?
@@russsanders7375 This is pandering where there is no further need.
"Too many white guys talking..." C'mon man.
In deconstructing Mormonism my understanding of the human race and our position in the cosmos has thankfully been tremendously broadened. It seems silly to focus on my genetics as though they make the tiniest bit of difference. If I am to highlight gender, race, sex, ethnicity, invariably, discrimination will result.
Nope. The only way to avoid being racist is to work continually to find where you're racist. America is racist down to it's bones. It's the water we swim in. And thinking of we stop taking about it it'll go away no it won't. You as a white person won't see it anymore because it doesn't affect you.
@@jessibell-pj8dx I appreciate your perspective, but I could not agree less. Segmenting and galvanizing folks around their immutable genetic characteristics has never worked in a society ever, rather, this has always been the recipe for discrimination, not integration.
@@ozymandias6743 maybe you're not understanding what I'm trying to say. The differences are already there. And America is already a hugely unequal, racist, sexist, homophobic, and transphobic place. These things already are. Integration is a racist concept of the past. Nobody needs to integrate into anything. As a society what we need is the ability to be a kind and coexistent society. Allowing for a plurality of people. But we're not. America is built in racism, homophobia, misogyny and transphobia. We cannot realize the society we all deserve if everyone simply stops talking about inequality. That approach is exactly the way the status quo remains.
@@jessibell-pj8dx I think I understand you, I just do not agree with you.
The USA is not racist, generally speaking. Some people are, for sure. My black friends' prefer this country to those of their ancestors (Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, Ghana, etc). Rwanda is more racist than the USA. Mozambique is more racist than the USA. The Dominican Republic is a hundred times more racist than the USA...
The psychological artifice of identifying people and assigning value or distinctions on the basis of their genetics is simply a bad formula. I do not really know the ethnic composite of most of my friends or co-workers. I don't see any reason why I should give a f*** where their forefathers lived.
I'm sorry, no good thing in our society has ever come from cohorting people off according to their genetics for some rank ordering.
@@ozymandias6743 I'm not saying anyone should rank anyone. But that is the system in America. I would recommend reading white fragility. It is an amazing book. It showed me the ways I am racist. The way America is still racist to this day. As a trans woman I know very well the feeling that things really aren't that bad for others. Before I transitioned I had no idea how sexist America as a nation is. These oppressions are real. Saying your black friends prefer here to somewhere else isn't absolution for here it's an indictment of there. If you value growing and learning how others are suffering and how you can help I recommend reading and listening to those suffering. If you're content to ignore it and continue on your merry way that is also your prerogative. But I think the worst thing you can do is come into a space where a black woman is describing her struggles and all you manage to bring to the table is the belief she made it too much about race.
This guy has it all wrong. Men have the priesthood. To be able to bless anything and someone you have to have the priesthood. I’m a LDS woman and I have never felt or been made to think that I am lesser than a man. If anything it’s right the opposite. Motherhood and women in general are put on pedestals. I have never wanted to have the priesthood. I have way to much on my plate with children, house, husband, callings,etc. in fact my first bishop often joked that the Lord gave the priesthood to men to give them something to do and to try and humble themselves.
Why not have them take care of the house and the kids?
I will type my comment like this episode. I umm, miss, umm, the other John,,, aaaa. I like him ummm, very much aaaa. This just seemed like aaaaa, ummm, a throw off ummmm, podcast aaaa.
😂 that is so funny! Make fun of people who talk different! 😂 You must be a real hoot!
A little too much emphasis on race. It is what it is. Stop putting so much emphasis on your race or anyone elses race. Just put out good content regardless of race, color, creed, etc. You're a "white" male, you didn't choose it, you were born that way. Sometimes there's a little too much wokeness going on here instead of focusing on the contect of the podcast, which is what brings us here to listen. Just giving some feedback here. Thanks
Clearly you are a racist Trumpanzee like 80% of Utah. Opposing racism and homophobia isn't wokeness. Only fascist Trump fellators use the term wokeness. Just giving some feedback here
You are speaking with the privilege of being a white male. The fact that you would comment this is a good indication you need to listen to more stories and podcasts of this nature.
To ignore race, is to ignore racism.
You walked right into the trap of “WhiTe FrAgilTy” 😅
I would recommend reading white fragility. It is about race. In Mormon world it is always about race.