I'm a direct descendant of Franklin D. Richards. Growing up we were taught to revere and honor him so immensely for the sacrifices he made to lead saints across the plains. Hearing the full story truly hurts. Thank you for working so hard to provide us with the truth.
This has completely broken and knocked my shelf off of the wall. Thank you. I am from a family of atheists (on my father's side), and yet had pioneer ancestors. And one even had her sister borrowed by Joseph Smith when one of his and Emma's own babies died! Thank you John, John and Carah for forging truth trails for us.
A highly charged educational podcast that will shock you. Love John Larsen's insight and passion. Such an important story and revealing life lessons. Can't get enough of Mormon Stories. As a never Mormon, I have learned so much from these three very insightful hosts. So much great content.
Of all the things I've discovered about church history, this has been by far one of the most shocking. This is my family history. I grew up hearing and reading about the experiences of the Martin/Willie handcart companies, but I was always told them through a faith promoting lens. I knew it was rough for them, but I had no idea that it was due to mismanagement on the church's part. I had no idea that many of them left the church afterwards nor that many more complained (rightfully so) about the conditions they were subjected to. Hell, I had no idea that Franklin D. Richards stole their cow! John Larsen wasn't lying when he said this was a heavy episode.
What are reenactments called? Treks? I was always jealous of the folks/families that got to go. Now I find they were false? It's just one shock after the last -- I wonder when I will stop being surprised? When all the lies are done?
I'm not even sure I can finish this one. It's just getting me right in the feels today. I will say that I LOVE John Larsen's appearances. The deep dives of church history continually blow my mind in the best way possible.
My husband’s ancestor was the butcher with the Willie company. They had come over from England. Once they got to UT they settled in Park City his GGG Grandfather was a little miffed at the church over what had happened they ended up heading north and settled in Rexburgh for a time then took his four wives and moved to WY and settled in Kelley on Mormon Row Moulton Ranch but the crops didn’t end up doing what they had hoped over time his grandfather ended up moving along the river where my husband grew up in Jackson Hole. The sentiment and distain for treck for him is very much shared. In the family journals they said there was a family member that was so thin and frail from the treck that you could see daylight through his skin if he was held up. I so appreciate the time and thoughtfulness in bringing this info into awareness.
I'm a NeverMo and my husband grew up in the church but no longer follows the church doctrines,. I have been listening your pod casts and I am amazed at the things the GAs and others have done and the followers accept it. Thank you so much for the information. There have been things I've learned from Mormon Stories that when I bring it up with my husband he is blown away. We both grew up in Idaho Falls. Continue disseminating the information.
Mr. Larson said something around the 2 hour mark that really struck me, "No TRUE MORMON would do that..." I left as a kid when my mother, a convert to the church killed herself. I moved in with non-Mormon family and they took me to a few meetings but I didn't want to go essentially by myself in a new town. Years later I made some Mormon friends and one asked about my Mormon experience. She implied my mom wasn't a true believer because she took her own life. I never blamed my friend for holding this idea in her mind, this was part of what she learned from the LDS. But that comment is still the most hurtful thing ever said in our long friendship, because the culture of Mormonism dulled a good person's empathy.
Ignorance at its highest level!! So sorry that someone would say something like that to you!! What is learned and what is taught in “Mormonism” is scary…. It is so easy to spin a story in a positive way and a different way, which is Mormonism in a nutshell.. The leaders of the church are very good at it at teaching that x,y, and z happened because of the lack of faith someone had!! That is such bowlshit!!
Iam so sorry about your Mom and the painful ignorance that statement has caused you . My brother also killed himself and my mom who is devout all of a sudden flipped her view to let us all know he did indeed went to heaven.
That lack of empathy seems to be a cultural part of Mormonism. I feel it in my own life and in how my family deals with each other. I have had to make a huge effort to not pass that coldness onto my own children. My goal is to have a very heavy coffin when I pass on. By heavy coffin I mean all the issues, hurt, resentments, abusive pattern all die with me. It is a heavy burden but one I am absolutely committed to not passing to my children.
I'm two years late, having just discovered the Mormon Stories podcasts and John Larsen. It's gut-wrenching to hear him, a big, tough, grown man, lose his voice and composure as he struggles to explain this time in Mormon history. I keep hearing my childish voice piping, "Put your shoulder to the wheel, push along! Do your duty with a heart full of song!" Thanks, John Larsen. You, yourself, are faith promoting to me. Promoting faith in humankind and the empathy and compassion of the human heart. I was disappointed to learn that you had left Mormonism alone, but I really understand why.
I am in my late 60's. Raised Mormon and raised my 9 kids in a devout Mormon home. After thousands of hours of study and research I left the church when I was 57. Also divorced at the same time. I always loved all the 'stories' of the handcarts and all the brave children. "Primary Children Sang as they Walked......" In my research, and from hearing others talk about it, I learned there were plenty of wagons for the women and children so they didn't have to always walk. That there was plenty more provisions that whoever was in charge refused to let the people take. Even refused to send more wagons. At times like this I HATE THE MORMON CHURCH. I especially hate the leadership that millions of people all but worship. I love John Larson's passions. Incredible man. And the Mormon church will never apologize. And the MMM. The worst horror story.
@@mkbkjensen My friend and her 65 yr old husband left the cult. Of course, their 5 kids don’t talk to them anymore and won’t let them see the grandkids. And they wonder why people call it a cult.
I’m 67, was a devout Mormon until 2 years ago. I retired and finallyhad time to study😢Like you, I have been devastated by what I’ve learned. How could I have such a fool! I lost a husband due to my pride and “faith” on what the brethren told me. Now we see clearly. Love to you friend.❤
When I went on trek I was 14 and I didn't know anyone in my "family", it was 90 degrees I was wearing leggings, a thick skirt, a thin white shirt that turned brown from walking 8 miles and a thick bonnet. The one girl I bonded with had a seizure and got flown to the hospital in a helicopter, my sister actual passed out during the first part of walking and went home and nobody told me. I was completely alone in a group of 200 teenagers who made fun of me for crying. When everyone started getting ready for bed I decided to pretend to be sick to go home because I was so miserable and I didn't even eat anything because I scared of throwing it up. If the saint were so miserable why would they want us to recreate it? I get honoring them but I think they would want something they enjoyed while they were alive, not something that made them so sick they died from.
The church wants youth to recreate it, so they’re guilted into staying in the church. Holding over their heads, “look at all the pioneers sacrificed, your life isn’t anything as hard as that.” Don’t left this cult guilt you and harm you. The cult leaders harmed the pioneers. Free yourself from the abuse.
@@katbos4995 EVERY WORD YOU "SPEAK" is the sorry truth The truth most sorrowful of the BLACK DARKNESS that finds a home in the hearts of man. THANK GOD, Who does not change, but Who, alone, CHANGES MENS' HEARTS.
I started reading “Devils Gate” myself after listening to this episode. It’s as shocking as John describes. This episode SHOCKED me deeply. I participated in the “trek” as a teen, I read “Fire of the Covenant” as a young adult, I’ve seen all the movies. I’ve even thought to myself as an adult that I was a selfish, sorry excuse for a member because the handcart pioneers went through so much more than me. How could men of God fail to plan so completely, gaslight the poor people that were suffering so much and then pat THEMSELVES on the back for having hatched such a brilliant scheme. I can’t even describe how much this episode alone has shaken me…
I want to thank the kind person on Reddit who recommended this episode. John Larsen - you are a great man, and are my hero. Thank you so much for wading us through these murky waters. Thank you for providing support for those of us who are learning the truth!
I can’t breathe. I’ve been sobbing all day. My ancestors were pioneers. Thank you for sharing the whole story, the whole truth. This didn’t need to happen. It also feels beyond horrific to me that in our day, the church USES this, USES HUMAN SUFFERING for the churches gain. It’s all so devastating.
❤ I was raised in Christian extremism and after watching the handmaid's tale I've been crying at unpredictable times. It comes out of nowhere and I can't stop it. I have had interactions with beliefs in church goers that sound fundamental Mormon or Mennonite. My mother was a terror and I still haven't completely got out. So much goes wrong when you try to leave a cult
Wow, there is nothing more moving than a truth telling man with passion, vulnerability & passion. It’s so emotional listening to this truth telling, I can’t imagine how difficult it must be & draining to research this stuff For us, the truth seekers. Thank you all.
I would love an honest movie about this. It would start like a faithful Mormon film. But slowly become an absolute horror movie. Ending with Brigham young welcoming them into the valley. Like Satan welcoming them to hell.
I went on a Church history tour about a decade ago and stopped at Devil's Gate. I listened as the nice, sweet elderly missionaries told (some of) these stories. I was horrified. I had always been taught this as a faith promoting episode of Mormon history, but it dawned on me that if a Missourian were telling these stories, they would talk about how the Mormons were driven and smitten by God. Obviously a God who did NOT favor them. My world turned upside down as I realized I only knew MY OWN history through a very distorted lens. It wasn't even the lens of the people in the company, as many of them died, but the lens of the Church, whose leaders needed to cover their asses for their unbelievably arrogant choices. Being there and hearing the horror story was so devastating, it was a huge shove on my way out of the Church.
I’ve had severe frostbite on my feet and I can tell you it’s one of the most painful things I’ve ever experienced (including childbirth.) The pressure of a sheet made me cry in pain, even on morphine. The suffering of these people is unimaginable.
Decedent of Mary Murdoch of the Martin Handcart company here…. My view of her story has completely changed I am now more informed on my family history than the church ever informed me THANK YOU JOHN
One of the most powerful videos I’ve ever watched. I started bawling telling my husband what I learned about the companies. I did Trek because my parents expected it and even at that time I didn’t consider myself a member, yet it was still so powerful to think about what they went through for their faith. To learn now that it has been so white washed and could have completely been prevented… I have no words for the rage, sadness and actual sickness I feel that to this day they still dishonor those very real people and very real experiences that they had not FOR but BECAUSE OF the church leaders.
I want to let Mormon Stories know that thanks to these RUclips videos, and especially some comments by John Larsen, I finally wrote and delivered a formal request to have my membership removed from the LDS church.
@@jondonohoo1991 I am not aware of a relationship with him. However, I've found that most any Hollist I've run into in the US has been a relative within a few steps.
@@cow1939 I can't say I know any Maureen. ETA: I googled "Maureen Hollist." If you are referring to Maureen Hollist Barker, it looks like she would be a second cousin, once removed if I remember my genealogy terms properly.
As a child, we often sang the words " do what is right, let the consequences follow..." in your primary and Sunday school services! These words instilled meaning in our hearts. If they only apply to the rank and file and not to church leadership, you really shouldn't be surprised that so many members are resigning! Gas lighting truth only leads away from God!
Funny thing, Your primary colors song of red, yellow and blue teach the same morals, and yet, where are they in your leadership? In fairness, it hasn't just been you, but you're in the current position to do something about it and......nothing! Feed the hungry, cloth the poor, provide clean water, shelter the homeless, educate the uneducated not with your dogma but a means to survive! Care for the ill, sick and afflicted. Put your resources and intelligent member talents to use; heal the planet, clean the environment! Or sit on your pile of riches which become of little worth as the environment continues to decade and reap the contempt and wrath of future generations who inquire, you had the resources, the talent, and the abilities but chose to do nothing! Of what value are you?
My apologies! Wondered why no one else commented! Wouldn't it be nice if the guy would actually do something like that? Actually do something of value in his position! Actually use said priesthood to make the world a better place instead of a religious corporation richer! Best wishes
How utterly appalling to hear about these poor people, and what was done to them. Those responsible for this were not men of God but lovers of money and power.It seems nothing much has changed from that time to this…except more and more members are finding out about the dark side of mormonism and leaving. Thanks to all three of you for shining a light on truth yet again….👏🏾👏🏾
Ah man this is a hard watch! My Mission Presidents wife wrote a book on the handcart story and gave inspirational talks at zone conferences. But the book and this episode are worlds apart.
As I watched John Larsen speak about the horrors of the Willie handcart company and then hear him speak about the Jesus of the bible not promoting capitalism my heart broke along with his. He is utterly full of compassion for creation and stands against wickedness that is in high places. I am not Mormon and was not raised in a home that attended church but I love Jesus and John's heart reminds me of a heart that is full of the love of Jesus.
Brigham Young took my third great grandmother's wagon at winter quarters when her husband died fighting a fire (Newell Knight, son of Joseph Knight Sr.). He promised her he would get her out west. He never returned the wagon and she had to go out west in a handcart with her little kids barefoot. It's sad reading her journal entries.
The crazy thing is Im related to Lydia Knight through my mother and the man who ended up helping Lydia during the handcart trek was an ancestor on my fathers side. The Mormon world is a small one.
In my great, great, great grandfather's biography (Norton Ray Tuttle), he described the Seagull event. He was one of the first to settle Tooele. He reported that there was truly a large hoard of grasshoppers. They tried to save their wheat by having people walk through the fields 24 hours a day with ropes strung between them to knock the grasshoppers off the stalks. He said there was a day when some seagulls showed up, but they were no match for the grasshoppers. But, he said one day a strong wind came up, and drove most of the grasshoppers in the Tooele area over the Great Salt Lake where most died. He said they washed ashore, and they shoveled many of them up on the shoreline into wagons and used them for fertilizer. But, the seagulls, at least in Tooele, did not eliminate the grasshoppers.
I grew up in the Salem Oregon stake.. And several years ago, when we had youth conference, we were out in the middle of July in the heat, and all they gave us was an orange for breakfast. All day we were doing physical activities. We were given one bottle of water and that was it until dinner time. So many kids passed out, got sick. And had to be sent to the ER. Parents were not aware that this was the plan, the leaders had. When we went home and parents were finding out there was a huge uproar against the leadership. The leaders eventually apologized and said they would never do something like that again. I was sick for days.
Another outstanding presentation from John - please keep them coming. It is wonderful to hear about the TRUE history of the church - not the whitewash!!!
I’m a descendent of the Willie Company and I had so much guilt around leaving the church because “your ancestors suffered so much so that their family and descendants could join the true church”. Knowing they were set up to fail breaks my heart but it also erases any guilt I have for leaving (in this specific area) because they should not have suffered. There was no reason for that trip to be as horrendous as it was.
I've been having a very difficult time lately and primary reason is negative effects the church had on my mental health. When I was 16 I was diagnosed with a degenerative eye disease and when I was 19 I was told I couldn't serve a mission by our state president because I would "slow the work of God". Since then I had to deal with prejudice in the church and members of my family but yet I try to stay strong being active member. Then someone in the state presidency gave a talk encouraging us to read more about the early members of the church. Bad advice. I can't even begin to describe the devastating effects that this religion has had on my self-worth. Thank you for your message
My grams was Shoshone Native American from Wyoming, her people suffered being moved in the winter from location to location in the 1920’s, she was lucky to be born. My grandfather on the other side (biological not step) was smuggled out of Germany in a suitcase because he was born to a Jewish woman. She’d been attacked by a group so no one to this day knows if his listed German father who smuggled him out who SAed her was his real father or if it was her Jewish husband. This story 100% matches both of those family’s accounts of their treatment. The LDS church full on put their followers through a Holocaust march and Trail of Tears/Native Constant Relocation march.
@@mikeleahy837 As a victmin myself I also know using full words can be triggering & I don't want to trigger others. I think about how my words effect others before speaking as I couldn't even handle seeing that without childhood flashbacks until after years of CPTSD therapy. I highly suggest you also consider using TW language as there is no reason to retraumatize someone simply because you personally feel like it makes the word less harsh, protecting the mental health of others is far more important than retraumatizing them to make a point.
@katpetersdorf as a rape survivor myself, just know that a lot of people say "r word" when they're trying to avoid the slur "retarded" as well. I had to go back and reread your comment to figure out contextually what you meant by "r worded" and actually spent more time focused on that than I would have otherwise. Just another perspective.
Wow Katpetersdorf My name is Funk,and one of Hitler s henchmen had the same name,&yet many were jews too,never to be heard from. A completed atonement is what we all need as read in Romans 5:7-17/Ephesians2:8&9/Colossians2:14/Titus3:5,Hebrews9&10 vs.2Nephi25:23 I recommend a great book,Unveiling Grace by fired BYU.professor,on Kindle. God bless you there. DrBob Funk age73
I'm actually a descendant of the Richards line. Digging into recent videos, I've come to a place where I have to believe that the family was in on it. He and Legrande Richards were both nephews of Willard Richards who was heavily involved with Joseph Smith. Learning and understanding the history has been helpful in figuring out where the ideas that I've grown up with have come from. It's also helped me remove the reverence I was taught to have for those ancestors. I never heard many of these stories despite the direct family line.
I had my faith crisis about 2 years ago. I couldn’t quite figure out what the church was hiding and found Mormon stories about a year ago and you all helped the questions I had come to light. Thank you for all you do to show the truth behind the church. I am extremely grateful for everyone’s hard work on the Chanel to make the confusing understandable.
I’d like to see what those first garmies looked like.. I always pictured them made from gunny sacks. Gosh, the women tho.. Wearing 40lbs of ridiculous clothing of the period. And speaking of periods… You think anyone slowed down as all these women menstruated? Women that are together a lot- sisters, roommates, workmates, pioneer women… Our menstrual cycles often synch up with each other. Now, I’m just a dumb hairdresser of 40+ yrs… But this happens ALL THE TIME. And pregnancy and giving birth on a prairie.. The woman was expected to get up and keep walking. Good grief! I’m a farm girl- we treat Cows better than this!! Thank you for attending my TedTalk ☕️🍩
So looking forward to this episode. During my journey each and every faithful story just kept falling apart. When I dived into the Martin Willie Handcart story, the last thing I thought would happen is to walk away being utterly disgusted with the events of that trek. Levi Savage and John Chislett were the real heroes to me and we never hear their names. That steak dinner that the leaders requested while everyone is literally starving to death is the sickest thing I had ever heard. Someone, maybe Chislett described his disgust so perfectly in his journal at that event.
I didn't think there was anything that could really shock me left to learn about the church. An hour into this episode, I have to stop because if I don't I won't emotionally be able to function any more today. This is despicable and revolting. In the holocaust it was one group ruthlessly killing another group. That's awful and evil enough. But your own people? Torturing, beating and starving your own people? I have a seven year old daughter and a four year old son. I hope I would have made those vile men beat me to death before letting them take my children and drive them worse than cattle or sheep. But I don't know. I won't say I what I would've done because I'm not there and can never know for certain. But the image of those *babies* being mercilessly whipped and beaten leaves me in tears. The injustice of this not being known widely prompts a deep chasm of anger in my soul, with no current outlet. It's going to be very hard to keep my mouth shut about this with my believing family members. We laugh so we don't cry . . . Perhaps I'll write parody lyrics to 'Come, Come Ye Saints.' I doubt they will be very funny in the end though.
Brigham Young is a monster and to think his name carries on with a University being named after him as if he was a good person. How could he sleep knowing these people are starving, cold, sick, beaten and tired because of his lies and deception? These poor people suffered terribly because of the heartlessness of others. This is so, so sad.
John L. mentioned a widow with five children in the Martin handcart company. I want to name her. She is my third great-grandmother, Elizabeth Simpson Haigh Bradshaw. She was widowed twice. She came with her two adult children from her first marriage and her three minor children from her second marriage. They all made it, but it never should have happened.
My favorite verses in the Bible made me always get in trouble at church. If I reminded people about the eye of a needle, I was ruining the prosperity gospel. If I reminded people judge not least you be judged, I was promoting people sinning. When I reminded people the ground is level at the cross and that by grace we are saved, I was downplaying that we have to “earn” salvation and have a perfect heart to be valid. When i reminded people when you do unto the least of these you do unto me, I was encouraging bad tax uses and charities for “lazy” poor children and too liberal. My Pentecostal church doesn’t worship Jesus. They worship the almighty dollar and the GOP.
As a PIMO Mormon in Idaho, I went on Trek, and it was one of the WORST experiences of my life already, I can hardly imagine what kind of *hell* it would be. I’ve just gotten to the part where you’re discussing whether or not the two companies were so inundated with women due to pseudo-prostitution, and that came as a complete shock because I’ve been taught for YEARS that it only ended up that way because all of the men sacrificed their rations so that their wives and children would survive the journey. Coming right on the heels of watching the video on the “Eternal plan of Happiness” yesterday, I’ve never *ever* been more disgusted with TSCC than right now.
My great great grandfather was one of the 3 men that BY appointed to go and rescue the Martin company in 1856. They rode over 200 miles on horses to find the company and got to devils gate where they thought theyd be, and they were not. So they rode further. They eventually found them, scattered and dying. He is mentioned in Devils Gate. Thank you for this podcast! We are proud of our ancestor for being a hero to these people but I think it is SO awful and so tragic how all of this happened. Reading DG makes you realize how awful BY was to these people in cheaping out on their food and their handcart materials and allowing them to leave so late in the summer... etc etc. By the way, my father and I are both no longer LDS. We tended to "think too much" I suppose.
The outrage and rants are a good balance to the level headed and nuanced discussions that happen on this channel. As someone who has recently left the church and has been super careful not to be the 'angry' ex-mormon, it's kind of refreshing to see the anger in response to the really atrocious actions.
I'm really enjoying John Larson's storytelling. He's very moving and is adding a lot of depth to all the Utah history lessons over the years of k-12 in Utah county. I'd like to know more about some more of the unpleasant reports of Mormons "robbing people" and "stealing women" into polygamy -- all rumors so far the only thing close I could find that was mind-blowing was the Mountain Meadows Massacre story. But I do know of there being some alleged criminal activities perpetrated upon those along the Pioneer trail to SLC.
Thank you for the insights on this. This was very heart wrenching which was addressed earlier. I did a tour of the concentration camp in Dachau 6 years ago and it was the most heart wrenching, sobering experience. To compare the food rations distributed among the hand cart groups to the prisoners in Dachau is absolutely despicable and the leaders of the church who threw these poor souls under the bus should rot in hell for this. This makes me feel both angry and upset as I've heard nothing but faith promoting stories regarding these events. Thanks so much again for sharing these insights.
I went on Trek twice in my youth. We were in Washington/Oregon. On the first one I sprained my ankle the day before leaving for the trek and went out anyway. On the second one I got hit by a car while riding my bike the day before the trek. On the second trek I also got run over by one of the carts, it crushed my foot. I had to ride in one of the leaders' accompanying/emergency cars for the rest of the day. I thought that was such a badge of honor, that I suffered like they suffered. I was so diluted. We were told that the hand cart disasters and all the poor decisions were made by reckless, uneducated, and overzealous saints who did this without telling the church HQ. I was taught that Salt Lake had no idea they were coming... My heritage is handcart company stock. The church did this to them...
Oh my! Loved this episode. My dad's side is Mormon. My mother's side is Catholic. I am a pentecostal. LOL A nice Morman man did my genealogy. He said, "You have a lot of LDS family!" I told him that i was aware of that. But, there were 15 families I am related to that came west with the Warren Foote Company. What an eye opener!
Thank you for sharing these heartbreaking truths! The stories of these people need to be known! The church owns them a huge apology! The amount of cover ups is shocking!!!
My grandma and great grandma (who I’m named after) survived a starvation march at the end of the war and it sounds so much like what these hand cart companies went through. How could people do this to other people
Wow, this really puts into context so much of what I grew up hearing in conferences and church. Never let a crisis, or a tragedy go to waste right? Brigham Young was disgusting.
Re: John D's rant about the Milgram experiment at about 1:50:00... I listened to a RadioLab podcast about that experiment several years ago, and the results of the study have been misinterpreted for years. Most people stopped the experiment when told they "had to continue." When they continued, it was because they had a strong belief that they were serving a higher purpose; in this case science. So, while John's example is a little off in that he said we are wired to follow authority, what may have really been happening is that people are wired to do awful and violent acts when they believe it is for "the greater good." Which is what every church leader from JS on down has used as an excuse for their depravity: "It's God's will..." Great episode. Learned (and swore) a lot. Keep 'em coming!
This is seriously one of the most egregious things the leadership of the church has done. The big huge pioneer day celebration in Utah, the pioneer songs we sang in primary, the cheesy feel good movies, etc. It all makes me sick now.
I told my 1st Bishop in 1977 that as long as I believed the church was right, I would be all in; I stayed all in for 30 years but can no longer in good conscious support a church that has a corrupt foundation
1:05:00 - Best quote part. If a shooter walks into a school and kills 12 and you werent one of them I don't want to hear how god protected you. Same for me and same to prayer and blessings.
You are forgetting about the emotional and mental abuse committed on the daily bases by the “righteous priesthood holder” fathers against their own wives and children, we are so handicapped by them and that is why it is hard for many to leave as this church and it’s social circle is the only thing we know and we are horrified to let go because without it we feel lost and scared. This church is evil!
This hit me hard. I have ancestors that crossed the plains, including some that died. I have a 2 year old daughter. I can't imagine having to suffer in such a way or to see my family suffer in such a way. There are no words to express my anger at the cruelty and apathy of the early leaders of the church and their exploitation and harm to good people.
I was raised Catholic. The Catholic Church isn't perfect by a long shot. But for 12 years in Catholic School, I was taught about the abuses that happened in the past (Spanish Inquisition, targeting Jews, etc. This was before the sexual abuse scandal came out!). They owned what happened. I am no longer Catholic. What would it hurt for the LDS to own their abuses in the past? Admit their mistakes? I don't think the church would fold. I admire the Catholic church for admitting its mistakes. I think the LDS Church would have the same admiration.
What an uninspired, unmitigated disaster that the handcart companies were. My wife's ancestors were among the handcart people and my ancestors were among those that were sent out to rescue them. It is remarkable that the church uses the most tiny and small method of migration. Why do they re-enact the handcart companies when they were only a minor part of our history? What I think that it is all about is that the church wants to cultivate the most gullible and credulous aspects of our psyche.
1200 calories a day for people push/pulling handcarts across 1500 miles in snow means you better have started off fat so you have some reserves to maybe survive. 1200 calories a day can also make you go mad, especially if you aren't eating fats. All to help Brigham Young increase his already growing finances, and to help the Church's current propaganda efforts.
Never be ashamed of crying over something genuinely awful. Hearing that a sick, old man was whipped and forced to spend his last hours crawling in the dust is something that should make any feeling person want to weep. I just put Devil's Gate on hold at the library. Thanks for this book suggestion!
I have RA. When I have a flare, the pain is terrible!! I cannot imagine having NO MEDICATION, having to walk FOR MILES, & be BEATEN for holding onto a wagon to ASSIST me to be ABLE to walk to “Zion”!!! The cruelty is unimaginable. The pain that man suffered before the beating, during the beating, & AFTER the beating was excruciating!!! The pain doesn't stop when the beating stops. It gets WORSE & doesn't go away for WEEKS!! Death for him was God’s mercy! SMH. The thought of these beatings and switches used on children makes me physically ill. I could not and would not have endured either. The cruelty!!
I had to pause because when John L. described the beatings and whippings, I started crying and couldn't hear. The wretched mismanagement, the disregard for human suffering, all for ego and a church built on lies. It's absolutely horrifying.
I knew about various absolute failures and tragedies that happened on the settler trails (Donner party etc), but I never knew the details of the handcart companies. This was even worse than the other settler tragedies, because so many people knew and failed to act and also this trail was already so well blazed and everyone knew the route, the weather etc. In short: They had the knowledge, the people and the resources to help them once everyone realized things aren't going according to plan. And then sufficient help did not come in time. Someone should do a movie about this event. Can't blame John for getting emotional. This made me angry and I didn't even have any ancestors involved.
Additional interesting fact, Levi Savage married a member of the willie handcart company, and then went on to marry both of his stepdaughters when they were teenagers and he was 48. He had three kids with the elder step daughter Mary Ann.
Ugh. I knew only a portion of these things and those I did know I didn't have all put together so eloquently. Hearing these stories all put together was so heartbreaking! You briefly mentioned a company coming all well armed, probably because of a Danite attack taking out another company. I remember reading a story where there was indeed a small company of very well outfitted non-members that were wiped out and all of their supplies and money taken. This was different from the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I'll see if I can find it again.
J.L. You have inspired me! I have purchased "The Mormon Handcart Migration". I am sick to know my family benefitted and am horrified to learn of all the suffering and death. The intentional cruelty towards the meek amongst us is criminal. I read Undaunted Courage last year about the Lewis and Clark expedition and have an idea of the hardships of traveling over this territory. Those people were experts and still almost starved to death themselves were it not for the Native Americans who fed them. I think that in the state where they hold the Sundance Festival that there would be a movie on this journey. If we can know about the Trail of Tears we all need to know the facts here. I really want to thank you for calling this to my attention! Update- I ordered the correct book Devils Gate. My great-great grandmother was married in the Nauvoo and came across the plains around 1847. Upon arrival Brigham Young disovled her marriage and married her to be the fourth wife of a much older man who had been a missionary to convert her family years earlier. She was very devout and bore him seven children
Your church has been doing harm for only 150 years. I'm French, raised a catholic. We would need so many podcasts to talk about all the bad things that were made in the name of God. Hundreds died on their way to Salt Lake City? Hundreds of thousands of European peasants were talked into crusading, dying (and killing) on their way to Jerusalem! We could also talk about sex abuse, we could talk of guilt, we have so much in common. Religion shoould remain a private thing, with no hierarchy. Well, I love your podcasts, I've discovered them very recently and they are very interesting. I didn't know anything about mormonism except for these young guys I sometimes see walking by pairs I know now are called missionaries. Now I've even read the CS letter.
I am also from a Catholic background. I am bothered about how the Roman Catholic church gets a pass as a "real religion". It's just a better masked, less obvious version of an abusive cult.
Damn. Just damn. I've been out of the church for over a year at this point, and have learned a lot of terrible things about it, but damn. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, it does.
This hurts my heart. As a teenager, the Work and The Glory series and The Fire of the Covenant were my favourite books. You're saying all the things I read, but I read them with rose colored glasses. This is making me so angry for teenager Nicole, believing this bullshit and praying for the faith of the pioneers. 🤢
Yup! I just threw out ALL my “Work and the Glory” novels. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside that they will sit in a horrible filthy landfill for the next few hundred years. Gerald Lund is a master at confirmation bias
Wow I only thought this was one of the few Mormon hero stories that was positive and actually historically one of the few good things, yet overrated. Now, the more I’m finding out about this, the more upset I get towards the Mormon church. 😡 😡 😡 😡 Even the Willie handcart company is another tale of how shitty the Mormon church is.
I'm a direct decendant of "Nellie" Ellen Pucell Unthank, who came across the plains with her family after joining the church in England. She lost both her parents and her lower limbs to severe frostbite. She barely survived the trek, and was married into polygamy later on after reaching the SLC valley. My husband is a direct decendant of Stillman Pond, who also lost nearly his entire family on the plains. These people suffered and gave everything for a fraudulent cause. This knowledge to me is bittersweet, as I'm greatful l come from brave people but I lament the needless suffering they went through because they were deceived by the Mormon religion cult...ure.
My daughter's seminary teacher invited my daughter to participate in the "pioneer track" as they do to all the youth, I'm glad she wasn't interested, I'll tell her the story as it is and to all my members in the family. I can't wait to walk out this cult.
Jeez.....what an appalling event. And as John says, not only engineered by church leaders while they were building opulent houses but made even more horrific by some of them even while it was clear what the situation was. His suggestion at 1:28:00 or so that someone should make a movie about this is actually an superb idea. Some independent film-makers maybe, backed up fully by all the established historical sources. Because while it would be a movie plainly portraying the flat out evil of some early Mormon leaders including Brigham Young, and really force the church to confront it, as well as members, it would also have quite likely wide interest to the movie watching public regarding the settlement of the American West. Finally give all those poor handcart people their own proper heroic due in American History.
My great great grandfather was a colonel in the Nauvoo Legion and there are accounts of his leading men by order of Brigham Young to get dissenters from Mormonism to return back to SLC to the extent that my GG Grandfather ordered either they return or submit to cannon fire. Though I have left the church many years ago, because of this podcast my view of my GG Grandfather is disgust.
It's disgusting listening to this... I grew up in Utah as a Mormon and you hear all these stories about the trials the pioneers had to overcome to get to Utah. We sung songs about their bravery both in church and school... and to learn how so much of the trials they were forced to face was orchestrated by the people who should have been there to support them is atrocious. The more I learn the gladder I am that I was pushed out back in 2002. I don't know how I would handle hearing all this now if I had still been in the church another 20+ years
I have a very deep respect for my ancestors and anger at the church for putting them through anguish that was entirely unnecessary, I have a whole different outlook on the church and hatred for Brigham Young now
I'm a direct descendant of Franklin D. Richards.
Growing up we were taught to revere and honor him so immensely for the sacrifices he made to lead saints across the plains.
Hearing the full story truly hurts. Thank you for working so hard to provide us with the truth.
This has completely broken and knocked my shelf off of the wall. Thank you. I am from a family of atheists (on my father's side), and yet had pioneer ancestors. And one even had her sister borrowed by Joseph Smith when one of his and Emma's own babies died! Thank you John, John and Carah for forging truth trails for us.
A highly charged educational podcast that will shock you. Love John Larsen's insight and passion. Such an important story and revealing life lessons. Can't get enough of Mormon Stories. As a never Mormon, I have learned so much from these three very insightful hosts. So much great content.
Of all the things I've discovered about church history, this has been by far one of the most shocking. This is my family history. I grew up hearing and reading about the experiences of the Martin/Willie handcart companies, but I was always told them through a faith promoting lens. I knew it was rough for them, but I had no idea that it was due to mismanagement on the church's part. I had no idea that many of them left the church afterwards nor that many more complained (rightfully so) about the conditions they were subjected to. Hell, I had no idea that Franklin D. Richards stole their cow! John Larsen wasn't lying when he said this was a heavy episode.
Me too , this feels so very personal . Like I am re-seeing my own family history !
What are reenactments called? Treks? I was always jealous of the folks/families that got to go. Now I find they were false? It's just one shock after the last -- I wonder when I will stop being surprised? When all the lies are done?
You might find this video on Brigham's role in the handcarts interesting: ruclips.net/video/PsQsxoND-3I/видео.html
The Trek.
Our leaders followed in Motorhomes.
😂
@@kathrynevans3974me too! When are the lies all going to be outed? I'm not holding my breath. 😢
I'm not even sure I can finish this one. It's just getting me right in the feels today. I will say that I LOVE John Larsen's appearances. The deep dives of church history continually blow my mind in the best way possible.
My husband’s ancestor was the butcher with the Willie company. They had come over from England. Once they got to UT they settled in Park City his GGG Grandfather was a little miffed at the church over what had happened they ended up heading north and settled in Rexburgh for a time then took his four wives and moved to WY and settled in Kelley on Mormon Row Moulton Ranch but the crops didn’t end up doing what they had hoped over time his grandfather ended up moving along the river where my husband grew up in Jackson Hole. The sentiment and distain for treck for him is very much shared. In the family journals they said there was a family member that was so thin and frail from the treck that you could see daylight through his skin if he was held up. I so appreciate the time and thoughtfulness in bringing this info into awareness.
I'm a NeverMo and my husband grew up in the church but no longer follows the church doctrines,. I have been listening your pod casts and I am amazed at the things the GAs and others have done and the followers accept it. Thank you so much for the information. There have been things I've learned from Mormon Stories that when I bring it up with my husband he is blown away. We both grew up in Idaho Falls. Continue disseminating the information.
Mr. Larson said something around the 2 hour mark that really struck me, "No TRUE MORMON would do that..."
I left as a kid when my mother, a convert to the church killed herself. I moved in with non-Mormon family and they took me to a few meetings but I didn't want to go essentially by myself in a new town. Years later I made some Mormon friends and one asked about my Mormon experience. She implied my mom wasn't a true believer because she took her own life. I never blamed my friend for holding this idea in her mind, this was part of what she learned from the LDS. But that comment is still the most hurtful thing ever said in our long friendship, because the culture of Mormonism dulled a good person's empathy.
I’m so sorry for your loss ❤️
Ignorance at its highest level!! So sorry that someone would say something like that to you!! What is learned and what is taught in “Mormonism” is scary…. It is so easy to spin a story in a positive way and a different way, which is Mormonism in a nutshell.. The leaders of the church are very good at it at teaching that x,y, and z happened because of the lack of faith someone had!! That is such bowlshit!!
I've found that the good mormons, the "true" ones... can't help but leave.
Iam so sorry about your Mom and the painful ignorance that statement has caused you . My brother also killed himself and my mom who is devout all of a sudden flipped her view to let us all know he did indeed went to heaven.
That lack of empathy seems to be a cultural part of Mormonism. I feel it in my own life and in how my family deals with each other. I have had to make a huge effort to not pass that coldness onto my own children. My goal is to have a very heavy coffin when I pass on. By heavy coffin I mean all the issues, hurt, resentments, abusive pattern all die with me. It is a heavy burden but one I am absolutely committed to not passing to my children.
I'm two years late, having just discovered the Mormon Stories podcasts and John Larsen. It's gut-wrenching to hear him, a big, tough, grown man, lose his voice and composure as he struggles to explain this time in Mormon history. I keep hearing my childish voice piping, "Put your shoulder to the wheel, push along! Do your duty with a heart full of song!" Thanks, John Larsen. You, yourself, are faith promoting to me. Promoting faith in humankind and the empathy and compassion of the human heart. I was disappointed to learn that you had left Mormonism alone, but I really understand why.
I am in my late 60's. Raised Mormon and raised my 9 kids in a devout Mormon home. After thousands of hours of study and research I left the church when I was 57. Also divorced at the same time. I always loved all the 'stories' of the handcarts and all the brave children. "Primary Children Sang as they Walked......" In my research, and from hearing others talk about it, I learned there were plenty of wagons for the women and children so they didn't have to always walk. That there was plenty more provisions that whoever was in charge refused to let the people take. Even refused to send more wagons. At times like this I HATE THE MORMON CHURCH. I especially hate the leadership that millions of people all but worship. I love John Larson's passions. Incredible man. And the Mormon church will never apologize. And the MMM. The worst horror story.
Still, hope that you receive peace, you deserve it.
Hope you are well. Did your 9 children also stop talking to you?
@@mkbkjensen My friend and her 65 yr old husband left the cult. Of course, their 5 kids don’t talk to them anymore and won’t let them see the grandkids. And they wonder why people call it a cult.
I’m 67, was a devout Mormon until 2 years ago. I retired and finallyhad time to study😢Like you, I have been devastated by what I’ve learned. How could I have such a fool! I lost a husband due to my pride and “faith” on what the brethren told me. Now we see clearly. Love to you friend.❤
When I went on trek I was 14 and I didn't know anyone in my "family", it was 90 degrees I was wearing leggings, a thick skirt, a thin white shirt that turned brown from walking 8 miles and a thick bonnet. The one girl I bonded with had a seizure and got flown to the hospital in a helicopter, my sister actual passed out during the first part of walking and went home and nobody told me. I was completely alone in a group of 200 teenagers who made fun of me for crying. When everyone started getting ready for bed I decided to pretend to be sick to go home because I was so miserable and I didn't even eat anything because I scared of throwing it up. If the saint were so miserable why would they want us to recreate it? I get honoring them but I think they would want something they enjoyed while they were alive, not something that made them so sick they died from.
Was their motive to teach young people, "See How Hard It Was For Them" or something like that?
@@cindys9491 yes. And to humble the youth.😢
The church wants youth to recreate it, so they’re guilted into staying in the church. Holding over their heads, “look at all the pioneers sacrificed, your life isn’t anything as hard as that.”
Don’t left this cult guilt you and harm you. The cult leaders harmed the pioneers. Free yourself from the abuse.
@@katbos4995 EVERY WORD
YOU "SPEAK" is
the sorry truth
The truth most sorrowful of the BLACK DARKNESS that
finds a home in the hearts of man.
THANK GOD, Who does not change, but Who, alone, CHANGES MENS' HEARTS.
I started reading “Devils Gate” myself after listening to this episode. It’s as shocking as John describes.
This episode SHOCKED me deeply. I participated in the “trek” as a teen, I read “Fire of the Covenant” as a young adult, I’ve seen all the movies.
I’ve even thought to myself as an adult that I was a selfish, sorry excuse for a member because the handcart pioneers went through so much more than me.
How could men of God fail to plan so completely, gaslight the poor people that were suffering so much and then pat THEMSELVES on the back for having hatched such a brilliant scheme.
I can’t even describe how much this episode alone has shaken me…
I want to thank the kind person on Reddit who recommended this episode.
John Larsen - you are a great man, and are my hero. Thank you so much for wading us through these murky waters.
Thank you for providing support for those of us who are learning the truth!
I can’t get enough of John Larsen and his insight and wisdom. Thank you!
I can’t breathe. I’ve been sobbing all day. My ancestors were pioneers. Thank you for sharing the whole story, the whole truth. This didn’t need to happen. It also feels beyond horrific to me that in our day, the church USES this, USES HUMAN SUFFERING for the churches gain. It’s all so devastating.
❤ I was raised in Christian extremism and after watching the handmaid's tale I've been crying at unpredictable times. It comes out of nowhere and I can't stop it. I have had interactions with beliefs in church goers that sound fundamental Mormon or Mennonite. My mother was a terror and I still haven't completely got out. So much goes wrong when you try to leave a cult
Wow, there is nothing more moving than a truth telling man with passion, vulnerability & passion. It’s so emotional listening to this truth telling, I can’t imagine how difficult it must be & draining to research this stuff For us, the truth seekers. Thank you all.
I never miss a John Larsen episode. He is a rare gem.
Same. John Larsen is my favorite because I need someone to show the upset. He is a gem.
I would love an honest movie about this. It would start like a faithful Mormon film. But slowly become an absolute horror movie. Ending with Brigham young welcoming them into the valley. Like Satan welcoming them to hell.
I went on a Church history tour about a decade ago and stopped at Devil's Gate. I listened as the nice, sweet elderly missionaries told (some of) these stories. I was horrified. I had always been taught this as a faith promoting episode of Mormon history, but it dawned on me that if a Missourian were telling these stories, they would talk about how the Mormons were driven and smitten by God. Obviously a God who did NOT favor them. My world turned upside down as I realized I only knew MY OWN history through a very distorted lens. It wasn't even the lens of the people in the company, as many of them died, but the lens of the Church, whose leaders needed to cover their asses for their unbelievably arrogant choices. Being there and hearing the horror story was so devastating, it was a huge shove on my way out of the Church.
I’ve had severe frostbite on my feet and I can tell you it’s one of the most painful things I’ve ever experienced (including childbirth.) The pressure of a sheet made me cry in pain, even on morphine. The suffering of these people is unimaginable.
Thanks for sharing your personal experience to add insight to this story! Hope you and your kid(s) are doing well. 🙂
Decedent of Mary Murdoch of the Martin Handcart company here…. My view of her story has completely changed I am now more informed on my family history than the church ever informed me
THANK YOU JOHN
One of the most powerful videos I’ve ever watched. I started bawling telling my husband what I learned about the companies. I did Trek because my parents expected it and even at that time I didn’t consider myself a member, yet it was still so powerful to think about what they went through for their faith. To learn now that it has been so white washed and could have completely been prevented… I have no words for the rage, sadness and actual sickness I feel that to this day they still dishonor those very real people and very real experiences that they had not FOR but BECAUSE OF the church leaders.
I want to let Mormon Stories know that thanks to these RUclips videos, and especially some comments by John Larsen, I finally wrote and delivered a formal request to have my membership removed from the LDS church.
You are wise and courageous! Stay strong❤️💪🏽
Are you related to the Llad Hollist that was a professor at BYU?
@@jondonohoo1991 I am not aware of a relationship with him. However, I've found that most any Hollist I've run into in the US has been a relative within a few steps.
Ryan, do you know Maureen?
@@cow1939 I can't say I know any Maureen.
ETA: I googled "Maureen Hollist." If you are referring to Maureen Hollist Barker, it looks like she would be a second cousin, once removed if I remember my genealogy terms properly.
In my opinion, modern day “Treks” should be considered abuse for the teens that have to suffer through it.
Mormonism "will go down?" Or Mormonism "has gone down!"
Didn't you abolished the word Mormon and Mormonism from the LDS church? And yet you refer to it as such!
As a child, we often sang the words " do what is right, let the consequences follow..." in your primary and Sunday school services! These words instilled meaning in our hearts. If they only apply to the rank and file and not to church leadership, you really shouldn't be surprised that so many members are resigning! Gas lighting truth only leads away from God!
Funny thing,
Your primary colors song of red, yellow and blue teach the same morals, and yet, where are they in your leadership? In fairness, it hasn't just been you, but you're in the current position to do something about it and......nothing! Feed the hungry, cloth the poor, provide clean water, shelter the homeless, educate the uneducated not with your dogma but a means to survive! Care for the ill, sick and afflicted. Put your resources and intelligent member talents to use; heal the planet, clean the environment! Or sit on your pile of riches which become of little worth as the environment continues to decade and reap the contempt and wrath of future generations who inquire, you had the resources, the talent, and the abilities but chose to do nothing! Of what value are you?
My apologies!
Wondered why no one else commented! Wouldn't it be nice if the guy would actually do something like that? Actually do something of value in his position! Actually use said priesthood to make the world a better place instead of a religious corporation richer!
Best wishes
The church:
“Some of you may die, but it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make”
How utterly appalling to hear about these poor people, and what was done to them. Those responsible for this were not men of God but lovers of money and power.It seems nothing much has changed from that time to this…except more and more members are finding out
about the dark side of mormonism and leaving. Thanks to all three of you for shining a light on truth yet again….👏🏾👏🏾
Your authenticity was obvious. Thank you for showing emotion. I felt it.
Ah man this is a hard watch! My Mission Presidents wife wrote a book on the handcart story and gave inspirational talks at zone conferences. But the book and this episode are worlds apart.
One of the best MS podcasts yet.
As I watched John Larsen speak about the horrors of the Willie handcart company and then hear him speak about the Jesus of the bible not promoting capitalism my heart broke along with his. He is utterly full of compassion for creation and stands against wickedness that is in high places. I am not Mormon and was not raised in a home that attended church but I love Jesus and John's heart reminds me of a heart that is full of the love of Jesus.
Brigham Young took my third great grandmother's wagon at winter quarters when her husband died fighting a fire (Newell Knight, son of Joseph Knight Sr.). He promised her he would get her out west. He never returned the wagon and she had to go out west in a handcart with her little kids barefoot. It's sad reading her journal entries.
Yet another character reference for Prophet Brigham Young. No widow or child unbilked. Just like late prophets Jim Jones & David Koresh.
@@gladtobefreeagain7375 yeah it was very troubling to read her account and how discouraged she was that he never followed through with his word.
Clint Clarkson Hey. We are cousins. 😂
My mom tells Lydia's story like such an incredible example of faith. Really its just abusive and tragic.
The crazy thing is Im related to Lydia Knight through my mother and the man who ended up helping Lydia during the handcart trek was an ancestor on my fathers side.
The Mormon world is a small one.
In my great, great, great grandfather's biography (Norton Ray Tuttle), he described the Seagull event. He was one of the first to settle Tooele. He reported that there was truly a large hoard of grasshoppers. They tried to save their wheat by having people walk through the fields 24 hours a day with ropes strung between them to knock the grasshoppers off the stalks. He said there was a day when some seagulls showed up, but they were no match for the grasshoppers. But, he said one day a strong wind came up, and drove most of the grasshoppers in the Tooele area over the Great Salt Lake where most died. He said they washed ashore, and they shoveled many of them up on the shoreline into wagons and used them for fertilizer. But, the seagulls, at least in Tooele, did not eliminate the grasshoppers.
After this episode I'm going to have my name taken off the church records. Thank you for all that you do.
What John Dehlin said at the end about devoting your life to a worthy cause was incredibly inspiring.
I am a descendant of Willie. This was one of the most sobering episodes I have listened to.
I grew up in the Salem Oregon stake.. And several years ago, when we had youth conference, we were out in the middle of July in the heat, and all they gave us was an orange for breakfast. All day we were doing physical activities. We were given one bottle of water and that was it until dinner time. So many kids passed out, got sick. And had to be sent to the ER. Parents were not aware that this was the plan, the leaders had.
When we went home and parents were finding out there was a huge uproar against the leadership. The leaders eventually apologized and said they would never do something like that again. I was sick for days.
Another outstanding presentation from John - please keep them coming.
It is wonderful to hear about the TRUE history of the church - not the whitewash!!!
I’m a descendent of the Willie Company and I had so much guilt around leaving the church because “your ancestors suffered so much so that their family and descendants could join the true church”. Knowing they were set up to fail breaks my heart but it also erases any guilt I have for leaving (in this specific area) because they should not have suffered. There was no reason for that trip to be as horrendous as it was.
I've been having a very difficult time lately and primary reason is negative effects the church had on my mental health. When I was 16 I was diagnosed with a degenerative eye disease and when I was 19 I was told I couldn't serve a mission by our state president because I would "slow the work of God". Since then I had to deal with prejudice in the church and members of my family but yet I try to stay strong being active member. Then someone in the state presidency gave a talk encouraging us to read more about the early members of the church. Bad advice. I can't even begin to describe the devastating effects that this religion has had on my self-worth. Thank you for your message
John is a legend! (So is John Dehlin) I love this content! Thank you all so much!
My grams was Shoshone Native American from Wyoming, her people suffered being moved in the winter from location to location in the 1920’s, she was lucky to be born. My grandfather on the other side (biological not step) was smuggled out of Germany in a suitcase because he was born to a Jewish woman. She’d been attacked by a group so no one to this day knows if his listed German father who smuggled him out who SAed her was his real father or if it was her Jewish husband. This story 100% matches both of those family’s accounts of their treatment. The LDS church full on put their followers through a Holocaust march and Trail of Tears/Native Constant Relocation march.
Please do not discount someone experience by saying r word...nobody r worded her...she was raped
@@mikeleahy837 As a victmin myself I also know using full words can be triggering & I don't want to trigger others. I think about how my words effect others before speaking as I couldn't even handle seeing that without childhood flashbacks until after years of CPTSD therapy. I highly suggest you also consider using TW language as there is no reason to retraumatize someone simply because you personally feel like it makes the word less harsh, protecting the mental health of others is far more important than retraumatizing them to make a point.
@katpetersdorf as a rape survivor myself, just know that a lot of people say "r word" when they're trying to avoid the slur "retarded" as well. I had to go back and reread your comment to figure out contextually what you meant by "r worded" and actually spent more time focused on that than I would have otherwise.
Just another perspective.
@@FabricofTime That is a good point, I should change it to SA
Wow
Katpetersdorf
My name is Funk,and one of Hitler s henchmen had the same name,&yet many were jews too,never to be heard from.
A completed atonement is what we all need as read in Romans 5:7-17/Ephesians2:8&9/Colossians2:14/Titus3:5,Hebrews9&10
vs.2Nephi25:23
I recommend a great book,Unveiling Grace by fired BYU.professor,on Kindle.
God bless you there.
DrBob Funk age73
I'm actually a descendant of the Richards line. Digging into recent videos, I've come to a place where I have to believe that the family was in on it. He and Legrande Richards were both nephews of Willard Richards who was heavily involved with Joseph Smith. Learning and understanding the history has been helpful in figuring out where the ideas that I've grown up with have come from. It's also helped me remove the reverence I was taught to have for those ancestors. I never heard many of these stories despite the direct family line.
I had my faith crisis about 2 years ago. I couldn’t quite figure out what the church was hiding and found Mormon stories about a year ago and you all helped the questions I had come to light. Thank you for all you do to show the truth behind the church. I am extremely grateful for everyone’s hard work on the Chanel to make the confusing understandable.
I'd love to have an episode where John Larsen talks about the history of the temple garments.
YES!!! And the ceremony itself. It has changed sooo much just in my short lifetime
I vote yes!
Me too!
Yes!
I’d like to see what those first garmies looked like.. I always pictured them made from gunny sacks.
Gosh, the women tho..
Wearing 40lbs of ridiculous clothing of the period. And speaking of periods…
You think anyone slowed down as all these women menstruated? Women that are together a lot- sisters, roommates, workmates, pioneer women…
Our menstrual cycles often synch up with each other.
Now, I’m just a dumb hairdresser of 40+ yrs…
But this happens ALL THE TIME.
And pregnancy and giving birth on a prairie..
The woman was expected to get up and keep walking.
Good grief! I’m a farm girl- we treat Cows better than this!!
Thank you for attending my TedTalk ☕️🍩
So looking forward to this episode. During my journey each and every faithful story just kept falling apart. When I dived into the Martin Willie Handcart story, the last thing I thought would happen is to walk away being utterly disgusted with the events of that trek. Levi Savage and John Chislett were the real heroes to me and we never hear their names. That steak dinner that the leaders requested while everyone is literally starving to death is the sickest thing I had ever heard. Someone, maybe Chislett described his disgust so perfectly in his journal at that event.
I didn't think there was anything that could really shock me left to learn about the church.
An hour into this episode, I have to stop because if I don't I won't emotionally be able to function any more today. This is despicable and revolting. In the holocaust it was one group ruthlessly killing another group. That's awful and evil enough. But your own people? Torturing, beating and starving your own people?
I have a seven year old daughter and a four year old son. I hope I would have made those vile men beat me to death before letting them take my children and drive them worse than cattle or sheep. But I don't know. I won't say I what I would've done because I'm not there and can never know for certain. But the image of those *babies* being mercilessly whipped and beaten leaves me in tears.
The injustice of this not being known widely prompts a deep chasm of anger in my soul, with no current outlet. It's going to be very hard to keep my mouth shut about this with my believing family members.
We laugh so we don't cry . . . Perhaps I'll write parody lyrics to 'Come, Come Ye Saints.' I doubt they will be very funny in the end though.
Exactly how I'm feeling. How can we not speak of this with the still worshipping family? :'(
Brigham Young is a monster and to think his name carries on with a University being named after him as if he was a good person. How could he sleep knowing these people are starving, cold, sick, beaten and tired because of his lies and deception? These poor people suffered terribly because of the heartlessness of others. This is so, so sad.
John L. mentioned a widow with five children in the Martin handcart company. I want to name her. She is my third great-grandmother, Elizabeth Simpson Haigh Bradshaw. She was widowed twice. She came with her two adult children from her first marriage and her three minor children from her second marriage. They all made it, but it never should have happened.
My favorite verses in the Bible made me always get in trouble at church. If I reminded people about the eye of a needle, I was ruining the prosperity gospel. If I reminded people judge not least you be judged, I was promoting people sinning. When I reminded people the ground is level at the cross and that by grace we are saved, I was downplaying that we have to “earn” salvation and have a perfect heart to be valid. When i reminded people when you do unto the least of these you do unto me, I was encouraging bad tax uses and charities for “lazy” poor children and too liberal. My Pentecostal church doesn’t worship Jesus. They worship the almighty dollar and the GOP.
As a PIMO Mormon in Idaho, I went on Trek, and it was one of the WORST experiences of my life already, I can hardly imagine what kind of *hell* it would be.
I’ve just gotten to the part where you’re discussing whether or not the two companies were so inundated with women due to pseudo-prostitution, and that came as a complete shock because I’ve been taught for YEARS that it only ended up that way because all of the men sacrificed their rations so that their wives and children would survive the journey. Coming right on the heels of watching the video on the “Eternal plan of Happiness” yesterday, I’ve never *ever* been more disgusted with TSCC than right now.
My great great grandfather was one of the 3 men that BY appointed to go and rescue the Martin company in 1856. They rode over 200 miles on horses to find the company and got to devils gate where they thought theyd be, and they were not. So they rode further. They eventually found them, scattered and dying. He is mentioned in Devils Gate. Thank you for this podcast! We are proud of our ancestor for being a hero to these people but I think it is SO awful and so tragic how all of this happened. Reading DG makes you realize how awful BY was to these people in cheaping out on their food and their handcart materials and allowing them to leave so late in the summer... etc etc. By the way, my father and I are both no longer LDS. We tended to "think too much" I suppose.
The outrage and rants are a good balance to the level headed and nuanced discussions that happen on this channel. As someone who has recently left the church and has been super careful not to be the 'angry' ex-mormon, it's kind of refreshing to see the anger in response to the really atrocious actions.
I'm really enjoying John Larson's storytelling. He's very moving and is adding a lot of depth to all the Utah history lessons over the years of k-12 in Utah county. I'd like to know more about some more of the unpleasant reports of Mormons "robbing people" and "stealing women" into polygamy -- all rumors so far the only thing close I could find that was mind-blowing was the Mountain Meadows Massacre story. But I do know of there being some alleged criminal activities perpetrated upon those along the Pioneer trail to SLC.
Thank you for the insights on this. This was very heart wrenching which was addressed earlier. I did a tour of the concentration camp in Dachau 6 years ago and it was the most heart wrenching, sobering experience. To compare the food rations distributed among the hand cart groups to the prisoners in Dachau is absolutely despicable and the leaders of the church who threw these poor souls under the bus should rot in hell for this. This makes me feel both angry and upset as I've heard nothing but faith promoting stories regarding these events. Thanks so much again for sharing these insights.
I went on Trek twice in my youth. We were in Washington/Oregon. On the first one I sprained my ankle the day before leaving for the trek and went out anyway. On the second one I got hit by a car while riding my bike the day before the trek. On the second trek I also got run over by one of the carts, it crushed my foot. I had to ride in one of the leaders' accompanying/emergency cars for the rest of the day. I thought that was such a badge of honor, that I suffered like they suffered. I was so diluted.
We were told that the hand cart disasters and all the poor decisions were made by reckless, uneducated, and overzealous saints who did this without telling the church HQ. I was taught that Salt Lake had no idea they were coming... My heritage is handcart company stock. The church did this to them...
Oh my! Loved this episode. My dad's side is Mormon. My mother's side is Catholic. I am a pentecostal. LOL
A nice Morman man did my genealogy. He said, "You have a lot of LDS family!" I told him that i was aware of that. But, there were 15 families I am related to that came west with the Warren Foote Company. What an eye opener!
The Temple "building" is a shell game to hide money. Great episode of Mormon Stories podcast. John Larsen is a fantastic guest.
Thank you for sharing these heartbreaking truths! The stories of these people need to be known! The church owns them a huge apology! The amount of cover ups is shocking!!!
My grandma and great grandma (who I’m named after) survived a starvation march at the end of the war and it sounds so much like what these hand cart companies went through. How could people do this to other people
Wow, this really puts into context so much of what I grew up hearing in conferences and church. Never let a crisis, or a tragedy go to waste right? Brigham Young was disgusting.
I’d love to see the Johns do an episode together on the British missions as well!
Just when I think I’ve heard the darkest history, the next story is even darker. Thanks for bringing this to us!
ExJW here, really enjoying Mormon Stories. Love your work!
Re: John D's rant about the Milgram experiment at about 1:50:00...
I listened to a RadioLab podcast about that experiment several years ago, and the results of the study have been misinterpreted for years. Most people stopped the experiment when told they "had to continue." When they continued, it was because they had a strong belief that they were serving a higher purpose; in this case science.
So, while John's example is a little off in that he said we are wired to follow authority, what may have really been happening is that people are wired to do awful and violent acts when they believe it is for "the greater good." Which is what every church leader from JS on down has used as an excuse for their depravity: "It's God's will..."
Great episode. Learned (and swore) a lot. Keep 'em coming!
This is seriously one of the most egregious things the leadership of the church has done. The big huge pioneer day celebration in Utah, the pioneer songs we sang in primary, the cheesy feel good movies, etc. It all makes me sick now.
Right? It makes me want to find a way to protest next pioneer day.
Agree 100%
@@desiadaven I would come to Utah for this! Un-effing believable.
I told my 1st Bishop in 1977 that as long as I believed the church was right, I would be all in; I stayed all in for 30 years but can no longer in good conscious support a church that has a corrupt foundation
Deep generational trauma. Now I understand my family history more clearly.
new lyrics for the song! Pioneer children were whipped as they walked and walked and walked…
church history without all the spin and gaslighting from the brethren isn't so warm and fuzzy . . .
1:05:00 - Best quote part. If a shooter walks into a school and kills 12 and you werent one of them I don't want to hear how god protected you. Same for me and same to prayer and blessings.
You are forgetting about the emotional and mental abuse committed on the daily bases by the “righteous priesthood holder” fathers against their own wives and children, we are so handicapped by them and that is why it is hard for many to leave as this church and it’s social circle is the only thing we know and we are horrified to let go because without it we feel lost and scared. This church is evil!
True, start to network with those who have left.
This hit me hard. I have ancestors that crossed the plains, including some that died. I have a 2 year old daughter. I can't imagine having to suffer in such a way or to see my family suffer in such a way. There are no words to express my anger at the cruelty and apathy of the early leaders of the church and their exploitation and harm to good people.
John, Kara, John and Levi are all "Savage"! Love you guys..
I was raised Catholic. The Catholic Church isn't perfect by a long shot. But for 12 years in Catholic School, I was taught about the abuses that happened in the past (Spanish Inquisition, targeting Jews, etc. This was before the sexual abuse scandal came out!). They owned what happened. I am no longer Catholic. What would it hurt for the LDS to own their abuses in the past? Admit their mistakes? I don't think the church would fold. I admire the Catholic church for admitting its mistakes. I think the LDS Church would have the same admiration.
I treasure hearing new material from THE John Larsen. Thank You Mormon Stories!
What an uninspired, unmitigated disaster that the handcart companies were. My wife's ancestors were among the handcart people and my ancestors were among those that were sent out to rescue them. It is remarkable that the church uses the most tiny and small method of migration. Why do they re-enact the handcart companies when they were only a minor part of our history? What I think that it is all about is that the church wants to cultivate the most gullible and credulous aspects of our psyche.
1200 calories a day for people push/pulling handcarts across 1500 miles in snow means you better have started off fat so you have some reserves to maybe survive. 1200 calories a day can also make you go mad, especially if you aren't eating fats. All to help Brigham Young increase his already growing finances, and to help the Church's current propaganda efforts.
Never be ashamed of crying over something genuinely awful. Hearing that a sick, old man was whipped and forced to spend his last hours crawling in the dust is something that should make any feeling person want to weep.
I just put Devil's Gate on hold at the library. Thanks for this book suggestion!
I have RA. When I have a flare, the pain is terrible!! I cannot imagine having NO MEDICATION, having to walk FOR MILES, & be BEATEN for holding onto a wagon to ASSIST me to be ABLE to walk to “Zion”!!! The cruelty is unimaginable. The pain that man suffered before the beating, during the beating, & AFTER the beating was excruciating!!! The pain doesn't stop when the beating stops. It gets WORSE & doesn't go away for WEEKS!! Death for him was God’s mercy! SMH. The thought of these beatings and switches used on children makes me physically ill. I could not and would not have endured either. The cruelty!!
I had to pause because when John L. described the beatings and whippings, I started crying and couldn't hear. The wretched mismanagement, the disregard for human suffering, all for ego and a church built on lies. It's absolutely horrifying.
I had to skip over it. So very sad.
You are saving the world with these podcasts.
I knew about various absolute failures and tragedies that happened on the settler trails (Donner party etc), but I never knew the details of the handcart companies. This was even worse than the other settler tragedies, because so many people knew and failed to act and also this trail was already so well blazed and everyone knew the route, the weather etc.
In short: They had the knowledge, the people and the resources to help them once everyone realized things aren't going according to plan. And then sufficient help did not come in time.
Someone should do a movie about this event.
Can't blame John for getting emotional. This made me angry and I didn't even have any ancestors involved.
If you don’t know “your” history, you are going to repeat the same mistakes again and again.
Additional interesting fact, Levi Savage married a member of the willie handcart company, and then went on to marry both of his stepdaughters when they were teenagers and he was 48. He had three kids with the elder step daughter Mary Ann.
Sick
🤮🤬 I always revered Levi Savage.
Ugh. I knew only a portion of these things and those I did know I didn't have all put together so eloquently. Hearing these stories all put together was so heartbreaking!
You briefly mentioned a company coming all well armed, probably because of a Danite attack taking out another company. I remember reading a story where there was indeed a small company of very well outfitted non-members that were wiped out and all of their supplies and money taken. This was different from the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I'll see if I can find it again.
J.L. You have inspired me! I have purchased "The Mormon Handcart Migration". I am sick to know my family benefitted and am horrified to learn of all the suffering and death. The intentional cruelty towards the meek amongst us is criminal. I read Undaunted Courage last year about the Lewis and Clark expedition and have an idea of the hardships of traveling over this territory. Those people were experts and still almost starved to death themselves were it not for the Native Americans who fed them. I think that in the state where they hold the Sundance Festival that there would be a movie on this journey. If we can know about the Trail of Tears we all need to know the facts here. I really want to thank you for calling this to my attention!
Update- I ordered the correct book Devils Gate. My great-great grandmother was married in the Nauvoo and came across the plains around 1847. Upon arrival Brigham Young disovled her marriage and married her to be the fourth wife of a much older man who had been a missionary to convert her family years earlier. She was very devout and bore him seven children
I've been thinking we need a movie about this. A real one on JS too but this...
Brigham Young was awful
Your church has been doing harm for only 150 years. I'm French, raised a catholic. We would need so many podcasts to talk about all the bad things that were made in the name of God. Hundreds died on their way to Salt Lake City? Hundreds of thousands of European peasants were talked into crusading, dying (and killing) on their way to Jerusalem! We could also talk about sex abuse, we could talk of guilt, we have so much in common. Religion shoould remain a private thing, with no hierarchy. Well, I love your podcasts, I've discovered them very recently and they are very interesting. I didn't know anything about mormonism except for these young guys I sometimes see walking by pairs I know now are called missionaries. Now I've even read the CS letter.
I am also from a Catholic background. I am bothered about how the Roman Catholic church gets a pass as a "real religion". It's just a better masked, less obvious version of an abusive cult.
Damn. Just damn. I've been out of the church for over a year at this point, and have learned a lot of terrible things about it, but damn. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, it does.
This hurts my heart. As a teenager, the Work and The Glory series and The Fire of the Covenant were my favourite books. You're saying all the things I read, but I read them with rose colored glasses. This is making me so angry for teenager Nicole, believing this bullshit and praying for the faith of the pioneers. 🤢
Yup! I just threw out ALL my “Work and the Glory” novels. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside that they will sit in a horrible filthy landfill for the next few hundred years. Gerald Lund is a master at confirmation bias
Wow I only thought this was one of the few Mormon hero stories that was positive and actually historically one of the few good things, yet overrated. Now, the more I’m finding out about this, the more upset I get towards the Mormon church. 😡 😡 😡 😡 Even the Willie handcart company is another tale of how shitty the Mormon church is.
I'm a direct decendant of "Nellie" Ellen Pucell Unthank, who came across the plains with her family after joining the church in England. She lost both her parents and her lower limbs to severe frostbite. She barely survived the trek, and was married into polygamy later on after reaching the SLC valley. My husband is a direct decendant of Stillman Pond, who also lost nearly his entire family on the plains. These people suffered and gave everything for a fraudulent cause. This knowledge to me is bittersweet, as I'm greatful l come from brave people but I lament the needless suffering they went through because they were deceived by the Mormon religion cult...ure.
I went twice on trek and come from pioneers... thank you for teaching me the truth about what they went through
My daughter's seminary teacher invited my daughter to participate in the "pioneer track" as they do to all the youth, I'm glad she wasn't interested, I'll tell her the story as it is and to all my members in the family. I can't wait to walk out this cult.
Jeez.....what an appalling event. And as John says, not only engineered by church leaders while they were building opulent houses but made even more horrific by some of them even while it was clear what the situation was. His suggestion at 1:28:00 or so that someone should make a movie about this is actually an superb idea. Some independent film-makers maybe, backed up fully by all the established historical sources. Because while it would be a movie plainly portraying the flat out evil of some early Mormon leaders including Brigham Young, and really force the church to confront it, as well as members, it would also have quite likely wide interest to the movie watching public regarding the settlement of the American West. Finally give all those poor handcart people their own proper heroic due in American History.
My great great grandfather was a colonel in the Nauvoo Legion and there are accounts of his leading men by order of Brigham Young to get dissenters from Mormonism to return back to SLC to the extent that my GG Grandfather ordered either they return or submit to cannon fire. Though I have left the church many years ago, because of this podcast my view of my GG Grandfather is disgust.
It's disgusting listening to this... I grew up in Utah as a Mormon and you hear all these stories about the trials the pioneers had to overcome to get to Utah. We sung songs about their bravery both in church and school... and to learn how so much of the trials they were forced to face was orchestrated by the people who should have been there to support them is atrocious.
The more I learn the gladder I am that I was pushed out back in 2002. I don't know how I would handle hearing all this now if I had still been in the church another 20+ years
Thank you guys especially John for all the research. What an emotional rollercoaster.
Let alone the carnage that reverberates in the individuals that have been abused by the church.
Remove non profit status of all churches, plus tax them at 25%
This!!!!
I have a very deep respect for my ancestors and anger at the church for putting them through anguish that was entirely unnecessary, I have a whole different outlook on the church and hatred for Brigham Young now