The Most Important Mercedes Ever? - The Carmudgeon Show w/ Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep. 120
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- Опубликовано: 19 ноя 2023
- This episode of the Carmudgeon Show is a documentary on the Mercedes-Benz W201 - the 190E, which might be the most important Mercedes ever.
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The W201-chassis 1982 Mercedes 190E was a game-changer, because it was a ground-up new car that allowed the luxury car maker to move into the small-car space.
This is the full story of how the W201 came to be (hint: it was a response to US fuel-economy regulations) and the barely comprehensible about of engineering R&D that went into it - 4 billion Deutschmarks.
In this episode, we talk about all 190E variants - from the base 2.0-liter, 8-valve and 190D 2.5 Diesels, to the 190E 2.3-16 and 190E 2.5-16 Evolution II DTM car.
The Carmudgeon Show is part of the Hagerty Podcast Network. 
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1:07:44 This “Piech” guy sounds like an interesting chap, you should do an episode on him
I hope you asked the barber for a refund 😂
I came here looking explicitly for this comment
The two most long awaited episodes of this car themed podcast, The Mike-isode and the Piech-isode, center around two *people* rather than cars…
Somehow that seems perfectly on brand for you guys 😂
Right? When I hear "endurance test" and it's not modified by "Pontiac", much confusion. Off to re-re-re-watch the M3 Icons video that Jason and crew did with lots of info on the 190E 2.3-16 vs BMW days.
btw... wtf is this Mike?!?
Jason's best friend that passed away, they have some ridiculous stories@@ChrisSaddlerSam
@@ChrisSaddlerSamJason’s best friend who passed away a few years ago but got Jason into a ton of trouble many many times, leading of course to some of Jason’s best stories. If you want an example look up the “Gone in 2.5 Seconds” episode of this podcast.
ΤΗΑΝΧ @@griffins750
This W201 (one of my favourite cars) could not be but a Carmudgeon Show episode:
1. 80's Mercedes, in particular W201 (of course) and W124
2. Bruno Sacco
2. Ferdinand Piëch
3.e30 BMW
4. At least one comparision to 911
Keep up the good work.
41:55 I love how Hyphen recalls details. "It was hot" as if he was there to witness it himself 🤣
He was though
Don't forget he is 94 years old, so probably he was there 😃😃😃
I’ve owned a 190E 2.3, 2.6 & 2.3-16V.
I’ve had the 16V for 30+ years, it just loves spinning at 6 to 7K.
Does the Carmudgeon show loose a little saturation every episode? Are you slowly taking us back in time to when Derek was a young boy (when they invented electricity and radio)?
New editor most likely culprit
I actually thought it was my monitor for a minute until I saw this comment.
@@AlainSTO good first name, btw
derek's cam is also very magenta
Episode 140 should be all about Mercedes W140.
The rear wing fact on the Evo 2 is the BEST thing I've learned all month.
Wow, the Hatchback one was absolutely new to me. (some other things too of course).
Years ago i read in an austrian car magazine, where they covered some anniversary of Walter Röhlr.
And Mercedes had contracted him for the first 2 Rallye seasons they wanted to use the W201 for.
In the article they claimed that Mercedes even had develloped an awd version of the 190 for rallyeing but then scrapped it as they thought they wouldn't be able to convice the FISA (predecessor to the FIA) to get rid of the prohibition of awd in Rallye. (Different from the Audi approach who were convinced that they would be able to make them change it).
Thing is, i haven't found that example of magazine, and in the huge amount of issues i have stacked it would take me a long time to sift through them.
But if i ever find the article again, i will put it in the scanner or take a picture and try to send it to Jason if i can.
As for the race on the Nürburgring with the 190s: the full race is on YT. But with german commentary, and it gets pretty clear early on, that Senna was pretty unknown and new thanks to the commentary. And as you said, Lauda came second (1.8 seconds behind Senna). But while Senna was starting from the Front, Lauda started from 14th place as he had't had time for the qualifying.
All of the cars of the race were brought back to original trim (so the cage was taken out etc.) except two cars: The Senna car was left as is, and the Lauda car, which was the only one being sold to a private museum.
And in 2016 Niki signed the car.
This car recently went on auction and sold for 322 800€
I bought my first 190e in 2009. I restored it and bought another, And another...six in a row in fact, ending with the 4 seater Special Edition 1993 2.6. I regret selling that car a lot. The 190e did everything better than you would expect. tremendous quality, decent 7 sec acceleration, great trunk space, comfort for 4, over 25 mpg and just a happy happy car. I am always looking for the next one, but most are too high mileage.
Excellent episode. Want a W201 now 😬
You guys are costing me money. Every time you focus on a classic Mercedes I have to go out and get one. I’m still having fun with my R129 and C124 thank you very much!
Don't forget that as well as the DTM there were other Touring Car Championships that the 190 & E30 took part in, that's why we Europeans 'got' what they were about
Great episode. Here is a fun fact, I grew up in Liberia in the 80s and my father purchased a W124 200. I remember that one being distinctly just 200. Not 230E, or 260E, or 300E, just 200 with no E. I believe cause it wasn’t fuel injected? 4 speed manual, no tach, cloth seats, hubcaps. Classic.
I had the same. I believe it was the last carbureted sedan made by Mercedes.
Yes. The 200 lacked fuel injection.
all wheel drive never was banned in the "first" DTM- which ran until 95, and turned into the ITC-Shitshow for the 96-Season
Audi had a 80B4 with AWD more or less race-ready for 93 before retiring in a hissy-fit during the 92 season... (read up on "twisted" crankshafts)
Alfa entered and demolished Mercedes with an AWD 155 in 93 and opel entered with a AWD-Calibra during the 93 season also.
People still don't really get the 190E, it's grossly underappreciated, especially the beautiful non-body kit base cars. I had a '93 2.6 and it definitely felt like a scaled down S-class. So many little engineering details, the ones mentioned here, as well as things like the manual mirror adjustment on the driver's side, the beautifully damped automatic gear selector, the asymmetrical side mirrors, I could go on. It felt like a floating granite block. The engineering is just beautiful - complex where it needs to be, elegantly simple where it doesn't.
Brabus also made some very cool performance variants on the W201 chassis using a bored and stroked version of the M103 3.0-liter that Jason was talking about. Kind of a GT3 lightweight spec, there was a red one that sold for $$$ a while back.
another awesome episode, dudes! can you provide a title / link to the book that informed this discussion? thx!
Thank you guys, learning a bunch here 🙋🏽♂️🍀
God bless yall for making this episode
There is a guy here in Greece that was rallying in a 190 2.3 16 for around 15 years or something. Sideways everywhere.
New show idea: Jason and Derek’s top 5 sedans of all time
haven't we had like 20 episodes on this topic already
There’s no such thing as too many episodes when it comes to old Mercedes talk 😒
Great episode, its insane these have just started come into their own in terms of wider recognition. I remember seeing the non evo cars posted for what now seems like a bargain not too long ago.
30:24 Multi-link does camber control? Do you mean toe? A regular double wishbone can do camber control...
I had to look through the FIA official records list after you talked about the high speed long distance runs of the 190E, and found some interesting numbers for the 50,000km runs (the longest run for the 190).
17/oct/1986 - Alabama - 133.07 MPH : Saab 9000 Turbo 16
10/apr/2005 - Laredo - 139.63 MPH: Mercedes E320 CDI
11/jan/1989 - Arizona - 140.34 MPH: Subaru Legacy
12/aug/1983 - Nardo - 154.06 MPH: Mercedes Benz 190E
No 190E can do 154,06 miles an hour - much less for 50.000 kilometer. Saab did the record. In 1986. To prove the point that Turbo's can last......
I wonder if Jason and Derek will be to 190E 2.3-16 manual what Magnus Walker became to air-cooled Porsches.
Great great stuff fellas. Now do all the great Benz chassis up to today 👍
Wife's first car was a 190e. The vacuum actuated door locks plus aftermarket alarm had a mind of it's own. I didn't know what we had until it was gone 😭
I learned so much today, thanks guys!
Great episode
So, I’ve been thinking about daily drivers lately, as one does when the weather veers to the (potentially) rainy season, and I’d been entertaining the notion of picking up a W124 300E.
But this has me thinking about looking at W201s in addition. Maybe a 190E 2.6 would be just the thing.
My father, a Mercedes guy, once made an offhand comment back in the ‘80s that stuck with me through the years. He said, “To me, buying a BMW is like saying ‘I wish I could afford a Mercedes.’” At the time I thought it was just snobbery, but the comparison you made in this episode about the construction and engineering differences between the W201 and the E30 reminded me of it (and why a Mercedes fan would say something like that).
Tail lights design was carried over to w202, but vertical. I love them. 40:19
This is my favorite RUclips channel now
way better audio this week - props to the sound engineer
You guys need to make a buyer's guide episode
In really wanting to get a clean e30 or 190e
I always watch episodes in chronological order but i had to skip the previous episode cause i love this car so much
Amazing
Darn it. Now I need to buy a w201.
Such a great episode. And thanks for putting the Sacco birthday bash together. Jason, sorry I almost hit you in the only (?) W123 there. Parking is about the only time 65HP is dangerous.
where was the episode last week?
Oh wow. Thinking of buying one of these right now. And had one a while ago.
would love to hear your thoughts on Lister Bell STR (Stratos Replica)
Not long bought my first AMG but Ive always wanted a 190e. The things i would do to get my hands on a evo2.
PLEASE SHOW inserts of any books you guys mention. PLEASE.
I want one of these 190.16v
Do a episode on 5th gen toyota camrys, the finest enthusiast platform.
Nice to see the W201 getting the credit it deserves. To another automaker it might’ve been “just a small car”, but if you’re going to bother doing something, you might as well do it right.
I'd like to say, I have a 2012 w204 and they still have the same tiny turning circle
I love all your content, Jason but what the hell happened to your haircut?
That's not a haircut, that's a cry for help 😂
How did you get a euro 190E 2.3-16 to pass California emissions? I'm having a tough time in Colorado.
6:45 strange 300E 2.6 here they were 260E.
In Us there was also 240D 3.0 which in Europe was just 240D but that had not enough power for Us market
I learned how to drive on this car😊
The 300E 2,6 was American market 260E. You only got the First one in America, and maybe some other markers, and the latter in Europe. I guess a 260E sounded to cheap in the US?
That said, the 190E was always confusing with the actual engine size.
Yes it is.
I had a 190E 2.6 and put the 3.0 8v engine in there.. it's literally like you just pull the motor and put the 3.0 in there and drive it. Then you have a 190ps car 🚗 😮🫶 I used to race this in autocross as a 2.6 🤣😅 👀
I think it's underestimated here, 20 mins in, just how big of a deal the compact sedan was for BMW.
You had the Neu Klasse in '61 that saved them from bankruptcy after the ridiculous money hemorrhaging failure of the 507 and is arguably the first 3 Series and is at least E36 sized vs a W110 Fintail Merc, the 1602/2002 in '66 which was even smaller and more affordable and then when we get to the E21 in '76, the 2002 had just ended production in '75.
While I'm sure the checklist was a thing and they were gonna make a better 3 Series "with blackjack and hookers" they were DEfinitely stepping on BMW's toes whether they wanted to or not.
EDIT: Also, Senna drove for Lotus, not Ferrari!
Also, you're making me curious about looking at a 190E and I had absolutely no intention to because they're part of Eastern European depression scenery on hubcaps with faded paint, slammed to the ground and all fucked up. But I do want a sedan and this sounds like the next step on from a Mk5 Golf towards something comfortable and cheap to run and sedan shaped.... I even considered a R170 SLK but 😁 it issss technically the same car underneath but that's precisely part of the problem for that.
Sadly, the W201 cannot be the perfect car, as it didn't have a wagon variant.
Is the 8v 190 still worth owning? It's not as special as the 16v of course, but the prices are in a different league.
Racing Volvo estates (wagons) soon please.
Yes yes yes yes God I think I asked for this at the 129 episode I know yall probably didn't read it but it feels like my dreams have come true !!!!!!!
We love our old mercs here
cool
Wasn't this the time frame where BMW also cooking the books to beat Mercedes at total sales? Having HQ workers cycle through leases fairly quickly (2-3 months) so that each counted as a sale. Flooding the used car market and depressing future sales but allowing BMW to claim the US sales crown.
Ah, yes - Miami, where you can tag and title anything with a VIN, including your German Shepherd.
Great, now I'm looking at facebook marketplace $3000 190E ....
How about a C111 episode?
Did you guys know that the George Foreman Grill was almost the Hulk Hogan Grill, but he turned down the request to be the face of the product because it didn't have an on/off switch, which he thought essential. Hogan still kicks himself every day.
Gone are the days when we could aspire to own a Mercedes Benz which was "Engineered like no car in the world".
We need an episode on Rolls Royce
Another great episode. Look at me, I'm learning! 😃😃😃
Your first was 1986 - OK and you display a picture of a facelift w201 which came in 1989 ... 1 hour 13 minutes video speaking about 190E , yet the video starts with a rookie mistake Adam Sandler ! :D
Simon Cowell would say...lose Derek and you will soar (lacks personality in his dialog, unless of course he is trying to impersonate James May) 😂😂
What car built in the last 10 years is the spiritual successor to the 190e?
So I guess at this point we aren’t getting a piechisode
Jason you need to fight your barber
I miss the singing at the start.
Derek saying litres instead of cylinders like 70 times really irks
So who hired Senna after the race? Parlamat?
I love the show, but I can’t relate to your Mercedes fetish. I’d rather have a Peugeot 505.
Ok, you’ve done 1 hour 13 minutes of why the w201 is the better car, now tell us why the e30 is the more fun car 😂
How about en episode on the E30 anyways? Spend so much GD time talking about Benz should be able to talk about the E30 for 60 minutes
sorry editor, colour grade does not look good..!
Same hairdresser?
Hahaha. the story about the wing and the rear visibility was hilarious... kinda shithousery...
Oh hey, I’m third
4th
Mercedes nerd-fest alert!
Oooh another merc episode get the lube and tissues..........not.
That is because we don't want to mark the Karo Braun interior. We are going in dry
Ick, another Mercedes podcast :/