I wanna take a moment to talk about the elephant in the room: Obviously these days I'm working for Winspace / Lún Wheels and it's keeping me super busy. I don't have much time to update here with original content, but... every day in my day job I'm doing super exciting things and seeing super interesting things and sometimes I think it makes sense to share them (like this video.) Of course, the flip side is that it comes across as very commercial and that may not be what you came for - I fully understand. I've always been honest with you guys and I think you all know that. Working here gives me access to some cool stuff which I think helps educate more people about making better choices on parting with their hard-earned cash. I have some videos coming up on non-Winspace related things so... stay tuned!
@Yama Fanboy Haha, again - don't wanna leave a link because it becomes a bit *too* commercial. If people are interested, I'm sure they can find the wheels. :)
I'm really interested to see the new Yeoleo Pilot wheels. Ordered a pair for my partner. I ride winspace 38mm, the Yeoleo Pilot are also 38mm, but only 1183gr. Be interesting to see the different in ride. Big fan of winspace Hypers so will be interesting to see if they compare. Cool video btw.
I think the way the world is going, most wheels will be carbon spoked soon. I've had some bad experiences with some carbon spokes, the metal to carbon interface failed. No issues with the Winspace though, they've been pretty much bullet proof
Your average big wheel brand is spending MILLIONS of dollars a years on spokes. The relationship this makes between supplier and builder is set in stone. The purchasing department or the wheel brand are on VERY good terms with the folks at the supplier. So, it's not so easy for them to just throw their spoke supplier to the kerb and move over to the new technology. So, yes, I believe carbon spokes are the future, but who has the technology to do it right, and who is in the position to do it right is an interesting one...
Spokes actually seem like the best use case for carbon fiber. Carbon fiber being just carbon strands held together by resin, it's only really strong in the direction in which carbon fibers are laid. Spokes are pretty much only under tension in one direction, so you can have all the fibers laid in the same direction and achieve insane weight to stiffness ratio.
Nice one. Appreciate the transparency on the Winspace connection and find you nonetheless very convincing. Next wheelset or build I go for carbon spokes. 👍
Thanks for this great video. Just reviewed EliteWheels Drive G45 gravel wheels and will be sharing your video with everyone asking about the dependability of the carbon spokes - thanks for all the charts and tests, great to see!
Great explanation, Joe! Here is a short and funny experience I had when talking about carbon spokes. I was having a conversation with one of the riders from our group, and he was looking at my HYPER wheels. We had a quick chat, and I told him they have carbon spokes. He was like: "What? That's bulls*it! How would they do that?" I didn't know if I should start to laugh or what... :-D
I have about 10 000km on a set of Winspace Hyper 50s now, yes they are super durable, light, fast and rigid but the spokes have come loose a few times especially on the front wheel which I must say is a bit of a pain, I have a truing stand and fasten the spokes myself but if I had to keep taking them back to the shop to have loose spokes fastened it would get old real fast.
I have Carbon spokes on my Hypers, and they seem fine so far, Im a 7 K a year rider.. .But on a diff topic, the wheel requires rim tape to be removed as the nipple is internal.
Do you have information on the fatigue life of the carbon spokes, or of wheels built with them? My experience with wheel failures is usually the spokes fatiguing as the primary first failure mode. I imagine these can be far superior but the bonded joint where the spokes attach could be a weak point.
The joint isn't bonded, it's a mechanical interface. (A bit piece of carbon trying to get through a small metal hole) so that joint isn't gonna have a break down of bonding agent, etc. :) As for the actual fatigue life and what dies first...I'm not actually sure. They have machines that pull these from 100->200kg and back again at a rate of 1hz and put them through lots of cycles (I'm not sure of the actual number, so not gonna pull one out my ass.)
What about long therm stres fatigue.. When metal parts work like susspension when peaks of force act on them they hold becouse are elastic ... Carbon cant wotk like that soo. When all parts are from carbon there is more force peaks ..... Im worry about it ..
@@galenkehler yes, but I'd rather be replacing a disposable spoke as opposed to a disposable frame. I do appreciate though that this would be a freak occurrence!
I’m tempted to pull the trigger on a set of Hyper in a choice of a couple of depths. The issue I have is hearing reports of spoke rubbing and generating noise. Was this something that was first batch issues and now solved?
I recently went with a wheelset with steel spokes for the same reason I always buy DT Swiss hubs: serviceability. Steel spokes offer wide availability, shop familiarity and ease of replacement. I'm sure it's possible to get replacement spokes from Lun, but every shop in the world is going to have some CX-Rays in stock. I sure this will change over time as carbon spokes proliferate. After all, carbon in pretty much the ideal material if you want something light and strong under tension like a spoke.
You admit you are biased towards Winspace, but your honest investigations into them seems to me what lead you to work for them. That is what I got out of it anyway
Everyone has bias, but that's why people watch reviews. Opinions are usually formed on bias (although not as direct as mine.) so just keep your bias transparent with your audience and they can make their own decisions. 🙌🙌
but isn't it too much? what about comfort ? do "normal" riders, doing gran fondos etc. need carbon spokes? at the end, they decrease the comfort (wheels are overly stiff), don't they ?
Hahaha. Have been testing different cable actuated brakes lately, swapping them at the side of the road with a mini tool. Apparently I did a poo job of the install. Oops.
Hey bud. Do you know if they are making an endurance style rim brake frame. I got a 2016 felt and its time for me to upgrade. I love the slc 2.0 but its too aggressive for me and would definitely buy one for next yrs build but need a endurance frame.
Hi I am new to riding and looking to buy my first hybrid bike. I saw an Upland LS 390 Hybrid bike. I am attracted to it for its beautiful design and light weight with a great price. Could you give advise on this brand or if you can recommend something better around the same price point.
Uhh so a few weeks ago my di2 derrailer commited suicide by diving into the spokes of my hyper 38mm. Fortunately I can replace the spokes. If this happened with aluminum spokes it may have ripped the hanger off the chainstay and possibly damaged the chainstay. Outside of that these wheels perform excellent
As this is less data-driven, I'm reluctant to answer... you can check other reviews. My personal opinion is that on any normal road surface they feel the same as a standard wheel. Your tire is what does most the "comfort" part of a wheel. That said, I think if you do smash into a speedbump or something at 30kph (not recommended) you do feel it a bit more with these.
I am interested in carbon spokes, but as far as I know, their aero performance is not as good as wire spokes, so for me, that is a tradeoff I can not yet accept (for me aero trumps weight, but I may have to reconsider everything as carbon seems very safe).
It's all in the force not way it fails. My steel spokes might as well be carbon as they broke. Not enough material for plastic elongation and even then they won't carry the load. It's all about forces they can handle. Rubber band can elongate much further than steel without snapping. Doesn't make it a better material. Also when in tension steel spoke "bending" will translate into more tension and snapping either way. What steel has going for it is it won't get cut/chip with sharp high speed impacts. So you can open more bottles etc. As for spokes/rims/hubs made of carbon fibre composite or steel, aluminium, titanium. It's not just the material it's also the design that mitigated the issues of specific materials or utilises their strengths. Look at progression from steel to aluminium. It required more volume but still was lighter. And further exploiting by hydroforming. Carbon fibre is awesome at tension and spokes seem like the perfect application for utilising its strength as long as its cons are mitigated which it seems it's starting to be the case.
Quite curious about the difference in elongation between the 2 graphs you show. In the first graph your spokes fail at nearly 6mm elongation wether in the second one the failure happens with just 3mm elongation, that's a big difference! Anyway nice to see some data shared and a proper technical explanation.
@@ChinaCycling thanks so the next question is when can we buy the hubs ;). But seriously would you consider making them with a standard head. And if not what is the reason for that. Just out of technical curiosity
I wanna take a moment to talk about the elephant in the room: Obviously these days I'm working for Winspace / Lún Wheels and it's keeping me super busy. I don't have much time to update here with original content, but... every day in my day job I'm doing super exciting things and seeing super interesting things and sometimes I think it makes sense to share them (like this video.) Of course, the flip side is that it comes across as very commercial and that may not be what you came for - I fully understand. I've always been honest with you guys and I think you all know that. Working here gives me access to some cool stuff which I think helps educate more people about making better choices on parting with their hard-earned cash. I have some videos coming up on non-Winspace related things so... stay tuned!
You’re treading a fine line but, imo, you’re treading it expertly. Transparency and integrity are everything. Thx. 👏👏👏
@Yama Fanboy Haha, again - don't wanna leave a link because it becomes a bit *too* commercial. If people are interested, I'm sure they can find the wheels. :)
@@hisdadjames4876 Thanks! Reassuring to know. I'm sure different people draw the line in different places... but thanks for letting me know.
I'm really interested to see the new Yeoleo Pilot wheels. Ordered a pair for my partner. I ride winspace 38mm, the Yeoleo Pilot are also 38mm, but only 1183gr. Be interesting to see the different in ride. Big fan of winspace Hypers so will be interesting to see if they compare. Cool video btw.
I'm actually glad to see videos from the manufacturer perspective.
I think the way the world is going, most wheels will be carbon spoked soon. I've had some bad experiences with some carbon spokes, the metal to carbon interface failed. No issues with the Winspace though, they've been pretty much bullet proof
Your average big wheel brand is spending MILLIONS of dollars a years on spokes. The relationship this makes between supplier and builder is set in stone. The purchasing department or the wheel brand are on VERY good terms with the folks at the supplier. So, it's not so easy for them to just throw their spoke supplier to the kerb and move over to the new technology. So, yes, I believe carbon spokes are the future, but who has the technology to do it right, and who is in the position to do it right is an interesting one...
Spokes actually seem like the best use case for carbon fiber. Carbon fiber being just carbon strands held together by resin, it's only really strong in the direction in which carbon fibers are laid. Spokes are pretty much only under tension in one direction, so you can have all the fibers laid in the same direction and achieve insane weight to stiffness ratio.
Exactly. The hard part is the interface between carbon and the alloy.
until anything touches them sideways. but will try.
Nice one. Appreciate the transparency on the Winspace connection and find you nonetheless very convincing. Next wheelset or build I go for carbon spokes. 👍
Thanks for this great video. Just reviewed EliteWheels Drive G45 gravel wheels and will be sharing your video with everyone asking about the dependability of the carbon spokes - thanks for all the charts and tests, great to see!
Great explanation, Joe!
Here is a short and funny experience I had when talking about carbon spokes.
I was having a conversation with one of the riders from our group, and he was looking at my HYPER wheels. We had a quick chat, and I told him they have carbon spokes. He was like: "What? That's bulls*it! How would they do that?"
I didn't know if I should start to laugh or what... :-D
I have about 10 000km on a set of Winspace Hyper 50s now, yes they are super durable, light, fast and rigid but the spokes have come loose a few times especially on the front wheel which I must say is a bit of a pain, I have a truing stand and fasten the spokes myself but if I had to keep taking them back to the shop to have loose spokes fastened it would get old real fast.
I have Carbon spokes on my Hypers, and they seem fine so far, Im a 7 K a year rider.. .But on a diff topic, the wheel requires rim tape to be removed as the nipple is internal.
Good info! This has become one of my favorite channels 👍 Keep up the good work!
Thanks for the love.
Do you have information on the fatigue life of the carbon spokes, or of wheels built with them? My experience with wheel failures is usually the spokes fatiguing as the primary first failure mode.
I imagine these can be far superior but the bonded joint where the spokes attach could be a weak point.
The joint isn't bonded, it's a mechanical interface. (A bit piece of carbon trying to get through a small metal hole) so that joint isn't gonna have a break down of bonding agent, etc. :) As for the actual fatigue life and what dies first...I'm not actually sure. They have machines that pull these from 100->200kg and back again at a rate of 1hz and put them through lots of cycles (I'm not sure of the actual number, so not gonna pull one out my ass.)
Can't wait to see Lun's Hyper in world tour peleton
Really helpful video, thanks for sharing.
Great video! I've searched taobao and can't find any carbon spokes for sale in China. Where did you source these?
What about long therm stres fatigue.. When metal parts work like susspension when peaks of force act on them they hold becouse are elastic ... Carbon cant wotk like that soo. When all parts are from carbon there is more force peaks ..... Im worry about it ..
Great as always! Thanks again Joe
Am I the only one thinking I would rather have broken some spokes than my frame? :)
Everyone always says those allez frames are disposable, that's why people get them as opposed to the carbon bikes.
@@galenkehler yes, but I'd rather be replacing a disposable spoke as opposed to a disposable frame. I do appreciate though that this would be a freak occurrence!
I’m tempted to pull the trigger on a set of Hyper in a choice of a couple of depths. The issue I have is hearing reports of spoke rubbing and generating noise. Was this something that was first batch issues and now solved?
I recently went with a wheelset with steel spokes for the same reason I always buy DT Swiss hubs: serviceability. Steel spokes offer wide availability, shop familiarity and ease of replacement. I'm sure it's possible to get replacement spokes from Lun, but every shop in the world is going to have some CX-Rays in stock. I sure this will change over time as carbon spokes proliferate. After all, carbon in pretty much the ideal material if you want something light and strong under tension like a spoke.
You get replacement spokes with the wheel. When you travel with your bike, you take them with you. Problem solved.
Anymore vids on the SLC coming up ?
You admit you are biased towards Winspace, but your honest investigations into them seems to me what lead you to work for them. That is what I got out of it anyway
Everyone has bias, but that's why people watch reviews. Opinions are usually formed on bias (although not as direct as mine.) so just keep your bias transparent with your audience and they can make their own decisions. 🙌🙌
@@ChinaCycling Exactly.
How does the carbon spoke handle twisting (while installation/truing/maintenance)?
but isn't it too much? what about comfort ? do "normal" riders, doing gran fondos etc. need carbon spokes? at the end, they decrease the comfort (wheels are overly stiff), don't they ?
I had a squirrel run into my old steel spoke and several broke along with my pride and some rib pain
Sailing Rigging. You do not have the Shock loading a crappy rider might apply (my 220 LBF on a 5ft 10 in frame) but the rigs perform for years.
what about carbon spokes for XC MTB use?? are they reliable?
Love the explanation
Are winspace selling carbon spokes on their own for our own wheel builds?
They will, but it's a moot point as you need their hub and rim as well, you might as well buy the wheel built.
😅, damn those discs need to be realigned, would go nuts with it hitting the whole time.
PS Great video!
Hahaha. Have been testing different cable actuated brakes lately, swapping them at the side of the road with a mini tool. Apparently I did a poo job of the install. Oops.
Hey bud. Do you know if they are making an endurance style rim brake frame. I got a 2016 felt and its time for me to upgrade. I love the slc 2.0 but its too aggressive for me and would definitely buy one for next yrs build but need a endurance frame.
Hi
I am new to riding and looking to buy my first hybrid bike. I saw an Upland LS 390 Hybrid bike. I am attracted to it for its beautiful design and light weight with a great price. Could you give advise on this brand or if you can recommend something better around the same price point.
What about fatigue life and corrosion resistance? Those are the most common factors for spoke failure.
Carbon fibre is perfect for use as spokes - immense tensile strength but they will not stand up to lateral loads such as beer bottles 😉
What’s the bike in your background? Looks like aethos.
Can I buy 68 Winspace spokes for a mountain bike wheel build?
Uhh so a few weeks ago my di2 derrailer commited suicide by diving into the spokes of my hyper 38mm. Fortunately I can replace the spokes. If this happened with aluminum spokes it may have ripped the hanger off the chainstay and possibly damaged the chainstay. Outside of that these wheels perform excellent
Opening beer like a boss!
How about COMFORT ARE THIS FEELS COMFORTABLE TO RIDE AS WELL? OR DO THEY RIDE AS STIFF AS THERE MADE?
As this is less data-driven, I'm reluctant to answer... you can check other reviews. My personal opinion is that on any normal road surface they feel the same as a standard wheel. Your tire is what does most the "comfort" part of a wheel. That said, I think if you do smash into a speedbump or something at 30kph (not recommended) you do feel it a bit more with these.
I am interested in carbon spokes, but as far as I know, their aero performance is not as good as wire spokes, so for me, that is a tradeoff I can not yet accept (for me aero trumps weight, but I may have to reconsider everything as carbon seems very safe).
Ur just wr0ng!
Cheers 🍻, now a new way to open a beer. You forgot to mention: Do not try this at home 😉
I will try to open a bottle with my spokes next time I don't have one.
How about testing some of the Berd poly spokes?
Have tested some. They're very stretchy, but how stretchy depends on whether or not you've pre-stretched them.
How did the carbon spoke joint with the metal part at both end?
It's a mechanical interface. Basically the end of the spoke is being pulled through a hole that it's too big to fit through.
I hate carbon spokes for the lack of comfort compared to stainless steel spokes.
Good video again
Carbon spokes and hubs are a bad idea. Metal bends, carbon shatters. You wanna risk that on race day?
That’s a stupid comment when the bike and rim is carbon. So what? Go back to steel everything?
@kentwong3818 If you wanna ride wheels with carbon spokes, do you. That's my opinion.
It's all in the force not way it fails. My steel spokes might as well be carbon as they broke. Not enough material for plastic elongation and even then they won't carry the load. It's all about forces they can handle. Rubber band can elongate much further than steel without snapping. Doesn't make it a better material. Also when in tension steel spoke "bending" will translate into more tension and snapping either way. What steel has going for it is it won't get cut/chip with sharp high speed impacts. So you can open more bottles etc. As for spokes/rims/hubs made of carbon fibre composite or steel, aluminium, titanium. It's not just the material it's also the design that mitigated the issues of specific materials or utilises their strengths. Look at progression from steel to aluminium. It required more volume but still was lighter. And further exploiting by hydroforming. Carbon fibre is awesome at tension and spokes seem like the perfect application for utilising its strength as long as its cons are mitigated which it seems it's starting to be the case.
Quite curious about the difference in elongation between the 2 graphs you show.
In the first graph your spokes fail at nearly 6mm elongation wether in the second one the failure happens with just 3mm elongation, that's a big difference!
Anyway nice to see some data shared and a proper technical explanation.
get those brakes set up Joe 🤣
Rim brake defense force. I need to intentionally release more anti-disc brake propaganda. (joking)
now the big question is can we buy Lun spokes?
At the moment; no. You'd also need a special hub (the head of the spoke is different to a regular spoke.)
@@ChinaCycling thanks so the next question is when can we buy the hubs ;). But seriously would you consider making them with a standard head. And if not what is the reason for that. Just out of technical curiosity
damn man! i rather want to breake a spoke than frame XD
Carbon spokes sound awful. Stiff means all of that road vibration is going to go straight into your seat and bars.
Give me some cost figures.
$15 usd / 1 spoke
give me carbon fiber spokes or give me death!
Tap a steel spoke and a carbon spoke with a hammer. Then tell me you still want carbon spokes.
100grams weight saving? Lol.
Why lol? If you want to save 100g on a crankset you'll pay 500$ more in some cases. If you want to build a very light bike 100g is a lot.
Goahead