From the engineering purists perspective which is the side of the fence I sit on. We'd always tend to go for isolation. Basically, make everything else as stiff as possible and let the suspension ie the tire take control of the damping. I appreciate that is not to everyone's taste but it's more to do with not having to account for something that is uncontrollable. The only other comment I had was around the moment of inertia for the winspace wheels. They are much lower than any other wheels I've had in to test and a large part of that will be the carbon spokes, a narrow section also helps a lot. You won't get the same level of damping purely by geometry versus other types and you get the benefit of fast acceleration. I know the term "spin up fast" is a term that I regularly use to ream muppet journalists but in this case the rotating mass is reduced so they will accelerate faster I think carbon spokes will become the norm shortly.
The problem with letting the tyre do all the suspension is that the spring rate and the damping rate are not independantly adjustable, that is by changing the tyre pressure the spring rate changes, however the damping is influenced by the tyre carcass and not adjustable. Hence a system approach is used to provide the ride characteristics required and reduce the variation in the tyre face load. Ride quality is one case where stiffer is not always better. When the muppet's talk about "spin up fast" they forget that to accelerate faster they also decelerate faster which can effect net speed depending on a range of variables. Typically bike industry marketing departments pluck one advantage and ignore the disadvantages, which you are well aware off ;)
Unlike Hambini whos some dude in a boiler suit constantly raving about having some obscure role in aerospace while trying to profit off gullible youtube viewers by selling overpriced bottom brackets, Raoul has real experience in composites and bike engineering. Sit this one out champ, or go peddle your gimmicks elsewhere.
@@JohnDoe-xx4ig Hambini exposes how crap bike company QC is by showing that they can't make a simple round concentric holes in their frames, and after seeing enough of it he decided to make bottom brackets that fixes the problem through better engineering design and machining tolerances. Seems like what any enterprising engineer would do. His bottom brackets are expensive, but overpriced? Looking at the precision he is able to produce, they are a high quality product. Machining parts to exacting tolerances is expensive. In other words you get what you pay for. Maybe you can't afford them so you call them overpriced and lash out at the guy. Don't let your lack of money make you too bitter, champ.
@@JohnDoe-xx4ig speed as a product of ride quality vs stiffness was the issue…compliance over differently textured surfaces has nothing to do with whether you like Hambini or his products. At least you’re trying to educate yourself…well done!
Thanks for putting the time and effort into looking at our wheels! We especially love this video because the wheels you tested you got from a customer and we had no idea they were going to end up in your hands. All of our 'review' wheels are straight off the production line with no special treatment, but, it's obviously impossible for us to prove that. So, you getting your hands on these is great. Your test data is very close to our own. Very glad there was no use of the yellow pencil. ;) ;)
Oh, and for the past ~6 months the rear DS spokes no longer touch. ;) We tested this change and found no noticeable difference in lateral stiffness, but it got rid of that noise. Thanks again for your time and energy in this video.
Was waiting with trepidation to compare your lateral stiffness results to mine (although I tested the disc version) with slightly different hub geo. Similar results, sort of validates my cheapo test rig 😉. As to whether what is too stiff or too flexy, that's all subjective and maybe needs a dynamic response rig to judge that. Combination rider mass, frame, tyre, seatpost and saddle spring and damping rates. Let's build a four-post type rig for road bikes!
I own these wheels, as a 100-105kg rider theyre all sorts of awesome, noticed the lateral stiffness from the outset, nice to run calipers close without rubbing out of the saddle on a climb
I see your comment is more than a year old. How’s your experience with the wheels today? How many km have you logged? I am asking since I was ready to buy the 2023 ones and, also being a heavy rider (95kg), I was advised not to.
Today on the muddy British roads, we had many many stoppages and riders turning back due to clogging up of their...rim brakes. No such bother for the disc brake bike. Granted it's an outside case, but it's not so clear cut.
I think disc has its uses in bad weathers. This is nice for races. For general use it is not necessary. Be interesting to see if the bike world will move onto no rim brake in the future. I think it will slowly to go to that as it did open up some design opportunities that existed in mtb for a while.
@@yosserc yep. Literally 3 in 1 ride. A road ride. It was muddy as the farmers had been in the fields. I must admit I'd also never seen it before in all my years. But I was ok, on my disc brake bike
I have ridden 4,500 miles on Winspace Hyper 35 mounted to Winspace SLC frame on the poorly maintained asphalt roads in Northern California. The bike and wheels are light and stiff, but when I need to transmit every bit of power to forward movement I choose Winspace. I have used the Winspace for 200 km. brevets in the past and plan to use the combination again for a 200 km. this weekend. But for casual 40 mile club rides, I use Time Alp d’Huez on ICAN 40 because the bike/wheel combination is comfortable. My ENVE 5.6 on a Yamaguchi steel frame feels soft, fast and a delight to ride; “steel is real, but carbon is quicker” is true. I appreciate you testing bikes and components.
Apart from the weight reduction that carbon brings, I'm not sold on it being quicker. Just because a frame is slightly more flexible doesn't mean that you lose power. The same applies in even the most extreme cases of fully suspended MTBs where you are just as fast uphill with open or locked suspension (see the dylan johnson video, for example). In my opinion, from all the reading I've done and my own personal experience, you should ride the bike which delights you the most to ride... while being well aware of the fact that stiffer being faster is an illusion, much like 120 PSI being faster than 90 PSI is also an illusion.
@@philipk4475 bending due to flexibility leads to energy losses because the frame does not spring back exactly as it was deformed. energy is lost due to heating. See "Tires and Hysteresis"
I love mine (65mm rim brakes). I put them on super stiff frame with rear caliper mounted on chainstay. Zero issues, never have brake shoes rubbing, spokes rubbing etc. But when wheels and frame are super stiff ride is harsh and I recommend more suplied tires like Vittoria Corsa 25mm (I ride clincher with latex tube). Fast , light, stiff, reasonable priced... you can't go wrong with these wheels IME.
@@kiwibiker9754 No. I ride only on perfect tarmac and puncrures aren't issue. Now I ride my bike with vittoria latex+s-works turbo cotton 26mm. Now I'm faster 1-2km/h and can't be more happy.
Ive got ALL the big brands in my warehouse. Over 40 pairs....Zipp, Enve, Mavic, Roval, Lightweight, DT Swiss...over 40 pairs of high end wheels. Winspace Hyper 38 rim brake are by far the best all round carbon wheel Ive ever used. For alloy the Spinergy Zlites are the best.` I can afford any bike tech I want. Brands give me stuff or offer me stuff most weeks. Most of the time I politely refuse. Winspace Hyper 38 rim brakes is the real deal. I hit a massive baby skull rock with my front rim. Destroyed the tire and tube. Rim was fine. Winspace are above most peoples budgets but if you can afford then and want the highest end carbon wheels then get them.
thanks for your expertise on these wheels. I have 2 sets of HYPERs on my bikes, Giant and BH, have done total 16,560 km by now and praise WinSpace for the product. Such great wheels at bargain price ! I ride quite bumpy roads in my area but the geometry of the wheels remain the same as it was out of the box, never failed in rim braking regardless weather condition nor any spoke braking nor twisting. I recommend these wheels.
I’m a fairly lightweight rider at 64kg and I have found a lot of modern frames and wheelsets to be way too stiff. I have to run my tires near the minimum recommended pressure for fast paced rides, otherwise I end up bouncing quite severely, which noticeable instances where the rear wheel leaves the ground and loses all traction/contact. I have settled on only riding wheelsets with steel spokes and framesets with more compliance(titanium and steel are my preferred). I have also noticed the stiffer wheels/frames fatigue me much faster than the more compliant ones.
I totally agree with this. Even at my weight i think most road frames/seatposts are lusciously stiff. We don't ride on race tracks, for the most part. I think wow what must this frame be like for a 60kg person, awful! I still think softer bikes are the fastest bikes at the end of a 150km+ race on rough roads. Most are too stiff and fatiguing.
They're selling us racing machines. It reminds me of James May and how he hated car manufacturers testing the cars in the Nurburgring. I'm neither Hamilton nor Van Aert. But at least Mercedes do not encourage me to buy their F1 car.
Of all the carbon parts I've had, the non crash failure mode has always been degradation of bonded joints (BB shells, seatpost heads). I don't have much concern over strength when new, the proof will be in long term fatigue life of the bonded joints, as the spokes are subject to poor conditions as well as significant cyclic loading.
The rubbing of the spokes is my biggest concern which holds me back of purchasing this wheels. Each rub between the spokes will make them weaker because the little shearing movements will remove material of the spokes. Even if there is no noticeable sound there will be still movement there. What will be the final result of this issue? A. One day the spokes will stop rubbing but got less durable. The stiffness of the wheels will be less good. What will be the difference? B. Due to the design, the rubbing will never stop, the spokes will continue to wear and needs to be replaced… C. The rubbing will never stop and by design the spokes will stand the rubbing for the whole lifetime of the wheel set. The time will tell…
As a layperson, my impression is that we still don't really know what the optimal stiffness is for a given rider on a given course. The PR guff from the bike brands would lead you to believe that a stiffer frame, for example, is always better but is that the case? Surely there is a sweet spot, which may vary for each rider depending on weight, power, riding style etc, between stiffness and compliance.
One aspect of wheel strength today is disc brakes put all their brake force through the spokes....this is something not mentioned by anyone. I prefer my rim brakes that put a lot less stress on spokes.
One thing I noticed on the stress/strain curve was how the failure mode of the spokes was sudden. There was no plateau as you'd get with some other materials. It's nice to get a bit of warning before catastrophic failure.
@@LuescherTeknik The head of the Engineering Department at Cambridge when I was an undergraduate was Professor Sir John Baker. He was known for the Plasticity Theory of Design. He worked out that you could use the strength remaining in mild steel in failure mode to absorb a lot of energy. He used it to design an air raid shelter that was a steel frame that would fit under the dining table. If your house has been bombed and is falling on top of you, it doesn't matter if your shelter gets a bit bent saving your life. His lecture to freshmen about thinking outside the box has stuck in my mind ever since.
Re. The spokes fretting (not ideal as you note) and ignoring the effect would be somewhat less with their flat section, this serves a purpose:"Interlaced spokes take up each other's slack during severe radial loading and reduce the chance of spokes becoming loose. If spokes become loose, their nipples can unscrew. Radial spokes cannot be interlaced and therefore, lose alignment from road shock more easily. "Jobst Brandt, The Bicycle Wheel Excerpted from page 68 of the 3rd edition edition:
Failure issue is certainly valid point. These wheels have been in the market for couple of years and I'm sure they've sold tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands I have not heard of any such reports About nightmare scenarios of Catastrophic failure of the winspace hyper wheel
Luescher Teknik's concern about the Hyper wheels applies generally to all bicycle carbon fibre constructions: the failure mode tends to be catastrophic. And where redundancy has been reduced (low spoke counts) catastrophic failure often means catastrophic consequences. This is the bugaboo that CF proponents still must contend with.
Topolino also made wheeels with carbon/Kevlar spokes. They absorbed road vibrations amazing well, but not laterally stiff at all, sketchy on curvy road descending. The spokes also had a tendency to have fibers start to peel off, scary.
I'm riding the Hypers 50mm (on a Winspace T1500D frame set) and i use them with GP5000 28C clincher tyres. At first i was using butyl inner tubes but then i just upgraded them with Vittoria latex inner tubes. With butyl tubes, it was pretty uncomfortable on bumpy roads, but latex tubes makes a BIG difference, they are now wayyy more comfortable to ride on bumpy roads ! And they should be even more comfortable to ride them tubeless.
Wass, Ive read that these 50s are to be used with 25C since the inner width is 19mm. Nice to read that you are doing fine with 28C. Was about to buy Ultegra R8150 wheelset because its inner 21mm width.
@@beckatolentino2761 Hypers are the best value for the money EVER ! I will probably never buy a big brand name set of wheels, just because it seems to be way over priced compared of the Hypers. And yes, latex tubes makes a pretty big difference in term on comfort AND it will make you faster compare to butyl ones (i don't know about tubeless).
Imagine if most component manufacturers offered anything approaching this level of insight to their products.. Instead we're reduced to listening to some mid pack ex racer harping on about 'feel' and 'confidence inspiring' again as if we're 5 year olds
I wish you were right. The reality is that the majority of the cyclist are hermetic to those rational explanations. I recall on BR a QnA on gravel wheels, Mavic explained all the differences they put on the Engineering and the comments were between “I don’t care” and “that’s rubbish” when actually they all made absolute perfect sense to adjust those elements…
I own a set of these in disc 38mm version and actually am relieved after the vid! They stood up to testing beautifully and the only concern was that a stick may go through the wheel. I think I'm good! Thank you Raoul! PS. The sound you heard wasn't from the spokes rubbing, but the pawls being a bit dry.
11:50 to 11:53. You can visibly see the steel angle bracket rebounding back to 90 deg after the load is removed. Just wondering if that would change the steepness of your charted results. I would have gladly welded some reinforcement to that bracket if I was in your neighbourhood. Thanks for an informative video. 👍
a squirrel ran into my front wheel, pulled up in the spokes and locked up my front wheel at the top of the fork, i flew over the handlebars and broke my wrist/ankle. i was getting spooked everytime a saw a squirrel after that cause their trajectory is so unpredictable. until some guy in Cali told me how to make a noise to scare em off. so if one starts trying to cross in front of you make that noise like your hocking a loogey but with the roof of your mouth instead of your throat. they seriously hear that and just take off back the way they came from lol
Wow, thanks for sharing. Here we have Kangaroos which are also very random in their travel path and BIG, I know a few people that have collided with them and come off second best.
@@LuescherTeknik Try it. Beats a visit to the ER. Plus it's a no weight, no aero drag, no cost, no-added-maintenance solution, so rare in cycling (and so unlike the abomination we are not discussing here). And it doesn't add clutter anywhere, so your bike stays sleek.
Brilliant video as always Raoul. One of the first things I always want to know with wheels is how well do they stop? Having started with Corimas and gone through several genarations of Zipps, one of the biggest improvements I've found has been in braking performance. That's on rim brakes, obviously (and being a rim brake rider I won't go there either on the rim/disc debate). Aside from that and as regards the stiffness/ride quality of the Winspaces, how much could the harsh ride be mitigated by reducing tyre pressures? And in consequence, how much would a reduction in tyre pressure impact on the lateral stiffness of the wheel/tyre system as a whole? It's a fascinating topic all round and we haven't even got into the deeper aspects of the interaction between the lateral and torsional stiffness of wheels (though you do touch on it). Keep up the good work!
Tyre pressure has an effect on lateral stiffness depending on a number of variables this can be significant. My approach is to optimise the system for the conditions, not just change tyre pressure. In certain conditions this wheel would be hard to beat. Agree about the braking performance.
I have the Hyper 50. I don't consider them to be overly stiff at all, in fact, I wish them to be even a tad stiffer still. Want comfort? get wider rim and tire. I also had the Zipp 303 and 404 Firecrest series, they were too flexy when out of the saddle. About the squeaky noise of the rear wheel, in my case it was not from the spokes, it was from the endcaps. Greased the endcaps and noise disappeared.
As you confirm the spokes rubbing and obviously the spoke is under tension... Is that a bit worrying especially knowing how carbon can fail, surely if the spokes are rubbing against one another you'll get wear on the spoke?
I'd love to see some scientific testing of wheel stiffness, and anything else marketed with "vertical compliance" as a feature. I'd wager that frames and wheelsets all come to the same conclusion... that none of them deflect enough in the vertical plane and that the rest is psychological. We want to feel something we thought the higher payment was for. There was a good article about wheels on Sheldon Brown's website, with claims that lacing patterns, rims, etc. don't change the comfort of a bike, but tyres and tyre pressure definitely do. So, if somebody wants to test away, I'm all for it.
my xc mtb wheel recently had to be replaced. It had 24 spokes sapim cxrays. cxrays are flexible spokes so people say it's great for mtb use (because the idea is that you want come comfort in mtb). well, I bought a new wheel with 28 spokes and thicker spokes at that too. So the new wheel is a lot stiffer. This is on a hardtail. But, I also use wider tires on the new wheel, the result is that the new wheel ride a lot softer then the old wheel. So yes tire plays a much bigger role in comfort than spokes.
You are having a hard time to give in to your own data 😜 Thank you for confirming my impression. I'm 110 kg. I've ridden my Hypers since spring. They are rock steady! Dead true as on day one. Apart from the carbon spokes I also believe the got the 2:1 spoke pattern in the rear just right. (Shimano has adopted that I noticed). Mine do not make any sounds from the spokes at all. But there was sounds after a couple of month. Came from the free hub body. The pawls needed grease badly. I think they left the factory with a far to fluid grease. Could "your sounds" be the same?
I had the same creak you described. It was coming from the endcaps and not the freehub. You probably greased the endcaps and not realized that fixed it.
@@radziyaman 50 mm. As I said no trouble at all. But I'm not riding them hard. No crazy criterium for me. Just cruising the back roads. Short stretches of gravel om My regular rutes. I'm riding 28 in the back and 25 in front. Tubeless. 6 bars.conti 5000 tl. As I said. Vere content. No troubles at all.
I have the rim brake wheels 50mm, I love them but don't agree with the behavior in cross winds. Not top guessing it's the bladed spokes. About the stiffness, I followed torkpeak and changed fro conti 5000 25mm to a 28mm conti 5000, totally agree with the behavior in turns and perhaps due to the lateral stiffness.
Was getting annoying creaking noises which were really difficult to track down. Had a set of Lightweights, and their titanium skewers were elastic enough to allow the axles to move slightly in the dropouts. Solution: Dura-Ace skewers (stainless steel).
Curious that the rims are only 26mm wide which suggests some 25c tyres will be wider than the rim significantly reducing aero gains. I have a wheelset with 19.6mm internal width rims and my 25c tyres measured 27.3mm on that rim. The 26mm rim width on the Winspace Hypers is actually at the low end of current wheelsets and helps keep the weight low but perhaps at the cost of aero gains.While the Winspace Hypers test well for aero by Hambini, that is on 23c tyres.
@Luescher Teknik Unrelated to this wheel, but have you seen many Carbon-Ti hub failures? If yes, unsound design or poor quality? Or both? Beginning to see quite a lot of spoke flange & hub body failures ...
what do you think makes the dura ace c50 9000 rear wheels have such a even deflection rate on both side? are the rims asymmetrical or wider flange spacing?
I wish Winspace would make a track wheelset line. The stiffer the better for track at least, and we don't have the issue of sticks or whatever being thrown into the spokes. I've been in contact and they said they have no plans in the future so that's a bummer. As a side note, this whole stiffness "war" with manufacturers regarding frames and wheels reminded me of Moto GP and Ducatis years ago. Ducati was trying to and arguably did produce the stiffest frame, wheel, and fork combination. Guess what happened, the riders went slower due to a lack of predictability, feeling, and confidence in the whole setup. Stoner went slower and crashed a lot, blaming the bike's lack of the ability to pass information back to the rider and also the unforgivable nature due to stiffness. Honda also went down the same path and found that a little flex is a good thing! I'm not sure how applicable this is the bike racing but interesting to me at least! Thanks for your efforts with this upload!
Yes, I am well aware of the Moto GP stiffer is better (but actually isn't) days. Thanks for sharing. And agree they would be a great track wheel maybe as good as the original Shamals.
Great review that appears to be objective as is usual with this channel. I'm interested in getting a set of these wheels for an aero bike build I'll be doing in the next few months.
Why is it when I asked Winspace for internal or external test house data they couldn't provide any. It's been left to you tubers engineers (that I have total respect for btw) to validate. So clearly they are good but without published data I can't sell here in the UK even if I wanted to. Also all wheel manufacturers are capable of this, so it's interesting why others have chosen not to?
@@altern8tive with respect I’m not referring to performance data of “my wheels are faster than yours”. I’m talking like the test taken out here, of strength, compression, pull, lateral loads, impact tests, torsion tests etc. The test required for sale includes ISO accreditation’s etc which everyone assumes is there and maybe they are but I never received proof. The aspect of safety not just how fast they are in a wind tunnel and when you say Winspace being open (that’s certainly one way of looking at it), however or just clever marketing, as in if you send them to enough influencers for free (and they admit it). Cam Nichols and Luescher are so far only a hand full of reviewers that either bought personally or independently given indirectly to test. There’s no denying though they are well put together as this video shows.
I always enjoy these technical discussions! Just one comment related to the spoke tension test rig. I noticed the steel angle bracket used for testing the spokes deforms quite a bit under the applied spoke tension load, it is quite noticeable when the spoke breaks and one can see the bracket springs back. Where and how is the elongation measured? If the same bracket is used for all testing, the results are comparable, however, the result is not the spoke elongation, but a combination of the spoke elongation and the bending of the angle bracket. If I recall the measured elongations they were in the mm range, however one would have expected more like microns elongation than mm’s. Thank you for always presenting some really interesting stuff, keep up the good work!
11:52 your pull test was done perpendicular. The wheel has many angles and therefore some spokes do not have pulling force perpendicularly but at certain angles. Are you able to show some datas for pulling the spokes at different angles? Which angle is the weakest load bearing for this carbon spoke or in other words which angle will cause the carbon spoke to break easily and the amount of Kilogrammes to do it?
I'm surprised that you would talk about spokes squeaking, but not the freehub sound....I personally don't mind the loud-ish freehub - but it isn't for everyone. I've had my hypers for this entire summer. I have them on my TT bike so I don't ride them all the time, but I really like the performance of these wheels. I've got 25's running tubeless at 80-85 psi and I don't find them especially jittery even on fairly worn roads. I'm not an especially light rider at just a bit under 80 kg. Hoping to drop 7-8 kilos this winter...so I guess I'll see if that makes any difference. But I love my Winspace wheels so far. Thanks for a great review!!
i think GCN tried to destroy set of these, its not very scientific, i guess crude but if you haven’t seen it might be of interest. Thanks for the great content, really enjoy your presentations, thankyou.
Questions to all engineers here do you think the weight of the rider will have some influence of the way the wheel behaves so maybe a 85 or even 90kilo rider may experience less or no traction issues with them? Also how cornering will be affected by the same variant the weight of the rider? for example i weight 80kg aprox and in technical descents i feel lightweight brand wheels feel less stable than my dt swiss 1100 dicut 48 i use a rim brake giant TCR.
The noise on the rear wheel comes from the fact that there is not enough grease in the free hub wheel, put some more grease and it will solve the issue ! This "problem" is well known on those wheels.
Great Content , I have 2 sets of the wheels and love them . I have a friend who had a stick go in his front "Standard " wheel and unfortunately his face was first contact point with the road , if the wheel had disintegrated rather than "grabbing' he may have had a better outcome . But its all hypothetical.
Do the spokes still touch in the current version? In my point of view are rubbing spokes really critical as Mr. Luescher mentioned in the Video in terms of wear and a possibility of a critical failure.
I live for the day that I am so aware and so good at riding my bike that I notice and get really annoyed at a "little squeaky sort of noise".😉 🤣 Thanks for a great and very informative video.
I've got 3 sets and about a dozen mates all have a set. The spokes don't rub or make noise. You just have to add some additional grease to the hub and you're golden. Not a common occurrence in these wheels but happens with all wheelsets
his said in the video wax or oil was affective to reducing the noise.. If it was the freehub waxing / oiling the spoke wouldn't make any difference... I've heard noises can come from both the hub body and spokes 👍
Theyll probably just coat the contacting points of the spokes with Teflon to solve the noise issue. I'm with you on the stiffness being potential issue for traction, being not just a roadie but a keen DH and 4x rider too ive had fork and wheel combos that were too stiff and lost traction on off camber sections sooner than lighter builds. Stiffness in the forks has the same balancing act to play too. Also having been on a variety of disc brakes over the last 20 years I still find it hard to believe the pro peleton are having so many issues with disc brakes its nigh on comical.
Have you determined that the sound was from the spokes crossing over or if the free hub was properly greased up cam Nichols had the same issue until he just greased the hubs.
ALL disc hubs in ALL road wheels dry up fast because of the small rotors and high temps. If you use road disc it makes sense to clean and regrease your hubs after every big day using the brakes.
@@durianriders are you saying that enough heat makes its way through the hub body to the other side of the hub to liquify and diplace the grease on freehub pawls?
About the spoke noise: It's the traditional way to lace a wheel so that the crossing spokes rest against each other. The claim is that the crossing spokes then somehow support each other. It was fairly common that the crossing spokes would even be soldered together. But did it ever have any benefit? Or was it just superstition? Some years ago I started to lace my own wheels so that the crossing spokes don't go over/under each other. I started doing this because I found that flat steel spokes like CX Rays or Aerolites would sometimes make noise at the crossing. I haven't noticed any difference other than the noise going away.
Hi Raul good to see you back on RUclips again. You mentioned the mavic rsys with full carbon spokes. What are your thoughts on safety on the mavic Ksyrium SLR from 2014 that have aluminium spokes on the front wheel and only carbon spokes on the non drive side of the rear wheel ?
I have been waiting far to long to hear someone talk about this carbon spoke subject. At the moment I shall be holding fire on using them and that has been my thought for the whole duration of them being introduced in to the market place. Yes yes. Good to hear what you had to say on those wheels Luescher Teknik. If Winspace were create a dedicated Track set then the stiffness may well be beneficial. Regarding stiffness regarding Wheels and frames I am a big believer and have been for many years that they can be over stiff, you need a bit a give when it comes down to using on the roads. That's my thoughts on that matter....
Overstiff - exactly. That applies to frames, wheels, and forks too! The latter is a problem for disc brake bikes that isn't often addressed - the disc brake fork has to be significantly stronger to deal with the braking forces than the rim brake force, this means that the fork isn't as forgiving in tricky situations where you are riding at the limit. Whereas a stiff fork might skip on the road, the more flexible fork will absorb some energy and keep you rubber side down. Not to mention the benefits in comfort
Yes, I have seen this happen enough times with very serious consequences, maybe it is constrained by the location where you ride and is more of a problem in some areas than others.
This happened 3x to me last winter during XC woodland rides, so it's not rare. Each time it was on very technical terrain, bellow 20 km/h, but I did bend the spokes and broke the aluminium nipples (this saved the rim from damage). The flying path of the sticks and stones lifted by the tires is sometimes unbelievable :)
Couldn’t quite see from the tensile strength test, are the Winspace spokes round in cross section or bladed like the CX-Rays? Presumably that would make a difference to their strength (from a cross sectional area point of view)? Would also be interested to see a direct aerodynamic comparison between two all but identical wheels built with round spokes and bladed ones to get an idea of what (if any) the aero benefits of bladed spokes. Do you have any data you’re happy to share?
From the engineering purists perspective which is the side of the fence I sit on. We'd always tend to go for isolation. Basically, make everything else as stiff as possible and let the suspension ie the tire take control of the damping. I appreciate that is not to everyone's taste but it's more to do with not having to account for something that is uncontrollable.
The only other comment I had was around the moment of inertia for the winspace wheels. They are much lower than any other wheels I've had in to test and a large part of that will be the carbon spokes, a narrow section also helps a lot. You won't get the same level of damping purely by geometry versus other types and you get the benefit of fast acceleration. I know the term "spin up fast" is a term that I regularly use to ream muppet journalists but in this case the rotating mass is reduced so they will accelerate faster
I think carbon spokes will become the norm shortly.
The problem with letting the tyre do all the suspension is that the spring rate and the damping rate are not independantly adjustable, that is by changing the tyre pressure the spring rate changes, however the damping is influenced by the tyre carcass and not adjustable. Hence a system approach is used to provide the ride characteristics required and reduce the variation in the tyre face load. Ride quality is one case where stiffer is not always better.
When the muppet's talk about "spin up fast" they forget that to accelerate faster they also decelerate faster which can effect net speed depending on a range of variables. Typically bike industry marketing departments pluck one advantage and ignore the disadvantages, which you are well aware off ;)
Unlike Hambini whos some dude in a boiler suit constantly raving about having some obscure role in aerospace while trying to profit off gullible youtube viewers by selling overpriced bottom brackets, Raoul has real experience in composites and bike engineering.
Sit this one out champ, or go peddle your gimmicks elsewhere.
@@JohnDoe-xx4ig Hambini exposes how crap bike company QC is by showing that they can't make a simple round concentric holes in their frames, and after seeing enough of it he decided to make bottom brackets that fixes the problem through better engineering design and machining tolerances. Seems like what any enterprising engineer would do.
His bottom brackets are expensive, but overpriced? Looking at the precision he is able to produce, they are a high quality product. Machining parts to exacting tolerances is expensive. In other words you get what you pay for.
Maybe you can't afford them so you call them overpriced and lash out at the guy. Don't let your lack of money make you too bitter, champ.
@@JohnDoe-xx4ig speed as a product of ride quality vs stiffness was the issue…compliance over differently textured surfaces has nothing to do with whether you like Hambini or his products. At least you’re trying to educate yourself…well done!
@@JohnDoe-xx4ig How dare you talk to a 5 year old like that. Shame on you.
Thanks for putting the time and effort into looking at our wheels! We especially love this video because the wheels you tested you got from a customer and we had no idea they were going to end up in your hands. All of our 'review' wheels are straight off the production line with no special treatment, but, it's obviously impossible for us to prove that. So, you getting your hands on these is great. Your test data is very close to our own. Very glad there was no use of the yellow pencil. ;) ;)
Oh, and for the past ~6 months the rear DS spokes no longer touch. ;) We tested this change and found no noticeable difference in lateral stiffness, but it got rid of that noise. Thanks again for your time and energy in this video.
Would you recommend using the HyperX for gravel?
What are your thoughts about the security concerns mentioned in this video?
Theses are UCI approved know correct?
Hi. Just curious if it is possible to order wheelsets of mixed depth from the site?
Was waiting with trepidation to compare your lateral stiffness results to mine (although I tested the disc version) with slightly different hub geo. Similar results, sort of validates my cheapo test rig 😉. As to whether what is too stiff or too flexy, that's all subjective and maybe needs a dynamic response rig to judge that. Combination rider mass, frame, tyre, seatpost and saddle spring and damping rates. Let's build a four-post type rig for road bikes!
Stiffness = It depends ;)
A proper dynamic rig would be awesome, might cost a bit though.
do you get stiff when you ride these wheels?
That's the best review of wheelset I ever watched on youtube.
Much different than Cycling Weekly where their test equipment is just their asses.
I wore safety glasses just to watch that spoke under 200kg+ tension! 🤓 Great content!
It was pretty hairy, I thought they were going to let go. Another different carbon spoke I tested shot like an arrow when it failed !
@@LuescherTeknik Recently saw a spoke (j-bend) rip through an alloy hub.
He is back on RUclips! 👍
Finally a test of these wheels from someone I trust.
Not sure who to trust? Trust us channels who dont sell out to the big brands...
@@durianriders well you are sold to absolute crap ... uhm sorry. #absoluteblack ... aren´t you?
I own these wheels, as a 100-105kg rider theyre all sorts of awesome, noticed the lateral stiffness from the outset, nice to run calipers close without rubbing out of the saddle on a climb
I see your comment is more than a year old. How’s your experience with the wheels today? How many km have you logged?
I am asking since I was ready to buy the 2023 ones and, also being a heavy rider (95kg), I was advised not to.
"I'm still running rim brakes but that's a whole another debate" love it. Rim brakes for the win! Great video, very informative.
Today on the muddy British roads, we had many many stoppages and riders turning back due to clogging up of their...rim brakes. No such bother for the disc brake bike. Granted it's an outside case, but it's not so clear cut.
I think disc has its uses in bad weathers. This is nice for races. For general use it is not necessary. Be interesting to see if the bike world will move onto no rim brake in the future. I think it will slowly to go to that as it did open up some design opportunities that existed in mtb for a while.
Buy a sports car with drum brakes?
Mic drop
@@yosserc yep. Literally 3 in 1 ride. A road ride. It was muddy as the farmers had been in the fields. I must admit I'd also never seen it before in all my years. But I was ok, on my disc brake bike
I have ridden 4,500 miles on Winspace Hyper 35 mounted to Winspace SLC frame on the poorly maintained asphalt roads in Northern California. The bike and wheels are light and stiff, but when I need to transmit every bit of power to forward movement I choose Winspace. I have used the Winspace for 200 km. brevets in the past and plan to use the combination again for a 200 km. this weekend. But for casual 40 mile club rides, I use Time Alp d’Huez on ICAN 40 because the bike/wheel combination is comfortable. My ENVE 5.6 on a Yamaguchi steel frame feels soft, fast and a delight to ride; “steel is real, but carbon is quicker” is true. I appreciate you testing bikes and components.
Apart from the weight reduction that carbon brings, I'm not sold on it being quicker. Just because a frame is slightly more flexible doesn't mean that you lose power. The same applies in even the most extreme cases of fully suspended MTBs where you are just as fast uphill with open or locked suspension (see the dylan johnson video, for example).
In my opinion, from all the reading I've done and my own personal experience, you should ride the bike which delights you the most to ride... while being well aware of the fact that stiffer being faster is an illusion, much like 120 PSI being faster than 90 PSI is also an illusion.
@@philipk4475 bending due to flexibility leads to energy losses because the frame does not spring back exactly as it was deformed. energy is lost due to heating. See "Tires and Hysteresis"
Love this guy. He’s the only youtuber I watch on 1.5 speed
Chris Horner also good, but needs to be on 1.5X
Tim from fair play now 2x 😂
I absolutely love REAL reviews. Thank you!
Awesome testing. I love how your findings are based on actual data
That is the only data to trust.
I love mine (65mm rim brakes). I put them on super stiff frame with rear caliper mounted on chainstay. Zero issues, never have brake shoes rubbing, spokes rubbing etc. But when wheels and frame are super stiff ride is harsh and I recommend more suplied tires like Vittoria Corsa 25mm (I ride clincher with latex tube). Fast , light, stiff, reasonable priced... you can't go wrong with these wheels IME.
@@kiwibiker9754 No. I ride only on perfect tarmac and puncrures aren't issue. Now I ride my bike with vittoria latex+s-works turbo cotton 26mm. Now I'm faster 1-2km/h and can't be more happy.
Ive got ALL the big brands in my warehouse. Over 40 pairs....Zipp, Enve, Mavic, Roval, Lightweight, DT Swiss...over 40 pairs of high end wheels. Winspace Hyper 38 rim brake are by far the best all round carbon wheel Ive ever used.
For alloy the Spinergy Zlites are the best.`
I can afford any bike tech I want. Brands give me stuff or offer me stuff most weeks. Most of the time I politely refuse. Winspace Hyper 38 rim brakes is the real deal. I hit a massive baby skull rock with my front rim. Destroyed the tire and tube. Rim was fine.
Winspace are above most peoples budgets but if you can afford then and want the highest end carbon wheels then get them.
What about their disc brakes version of the wheels ??
Thank you for the sharing the knowledge Luescher. We learnt something today. Cheers mate
thanks for your expertise on these wheels. I have 2 sets of HYPERs on my bikes, Giant and BH, have done total 16,560 km by now and praise WinSpace for the product. Such great wheels at bargain price ! I ride quite bumpy roads in my area but the geometry of the wheels remain the same as it was out of the box, never failed in rim braking regardless weather condition nor any spoke braking nor twisting. I recommend these wheels.
I’m a fairly lightweight rider at 64kg and I have found a lot of modern frames and wheelsets to be way too stiff. I have to run my tires near the minimum recommended pressure for fast paced rides, otherwise I end up bouncing quite severely, which noticeable instances where the rear wheel leaves the ground and loses all traction/contact. I have settled on only riding wheelsets with steel spokes and framesets with more compliance(titanium and steel are my preferred). I have also noticed the stiffer wheels/frames fatigue me much faster than the more compliant ones.
Are you really at the recommended pressure? With 28c tubeless tyres that would be 60 psi or even a bit less.
I totally agree with this. Even at my weight i think most road frames/seatposts are lusciously stiff. We don't ride on race tracks, for the most part. I think wow what must this frame be like for a 60kg person, awful! I still think softer bikes are the fastest bikes at the end of a 150km+ race on rough roads. Most are too stiff and fatiguing.
They're selling us racing machines. It reminds me of James May and how he hated car manufacturers testing the cars in the Nurburgring. I'm neither Hamilton nor Van Aert. But at least Mercedes do not encourage me to buy their F1 car.
world is getting more fat
Totally feel you mate. I'm at 60 kgs and I have my best performances on aluminium bikes!
Thanks!
Thanks for the support, I appreciate it.
Raoul made an engineering video and we've got GPLama, Hambini and Peak Torque in the comments. I need to change my underwear after this one
And China cycling (under winspace login).
Of all the carbon parts I've had, the non crash failure mode has always been degradation of bonded joints (BB shells, seatpost heads). I don't have much concern over strength when new, the proof will be in long term fatigue life of the bonded joints, as the spokes are subject to poor conditions as well as significant cyclic loading.
I'm not skeptical of the wheels and I'd probably buy some if they made deeper section wheels. As a 95kg rider I love stiff wheels.
The life of the bonded interface would be an interesting test, especially hot/wet.
@@LuescherTeknik I thought the nipple ends was molded slid down on to end... which is tapered didnt think it was bonded as such?🤔
@@galenkehler hyper got 65...
@@csren8328 yes, only mid depth wheels, 65 is the tallest.
The rubbing of the spokes is my biggest concern which holds me back of purchasing this wheels. Each rub between the spokes will make them weaker because the little shearing movements will remove material of the spokes. Even if there is no noticeable sound there will be still movement there. What will be the final result of this issue?
A. One day the spokes will stop rubbing but got less durable. The stiffness of the wheels will be less good. What will be the difference?
B. Due to the design, the rubbing will never stop, the spokes will continue to wear and needs to be replaced…
C. The rubbing will never stop and by design the spokes will stand the rubbing for the whole lifetime of the wheel set.
The time will tell…
As a layperson, my impression is that we still don't really know what the optimal stiffness is for a given rider on a given course. The PR guff from the bike brands would lead you to believe that a stiffer frame, for example, is always better but is that the case? Surely there is a sweet spot, which may vary for each rider depending on weight, power, riding style etc, between stiffness and compliance.
Layperson???😂😂😂😂👎 jog on flap jack
Pro nouns 😂😂
Correct, there are many variables, that's why I said "It depends" ;)
@@rambojonj1838 Are you really so pathetically weak that this is what triggered you?
@@cjohnson3836 the siren sound of the flap jack😂
I'm taking the piss out of you copernicus
Deal with it 😪
Ps you sound pretty "triggered" ,
Birthingperson 😂😂😂😂
One aspect of wheel strength today is disc brakes put all their brake force through the spokes....this is something not mentioned by anyone. I prefer my rim brakes that put a lot less stress on spokes.
One thing I noticed on the stress/strain curve was how the failure mode of the spokes was sudden. There was no plateau as you'd get with some other materials. It's nice to get a bit of warning before catastrophic failure.
Correct, the elongation on carbon is very low, often less than 2%, steel can be 25%.
@@LuescherTeknik The head of the Engineering Department at Cambridge when I was an undergraduate was Professor Sir John Baker. He was known for the Plasticity Theory of Design. He worked out that you could use the strength remaining in mild steel in failure mode to absorb a lot of energy. He used it to design an air raid shelter that was a steel frame that would fit under the dining table. If your house has been bombed and is falling on top of you, it doesn't matter if your shelter gets a bit bent saving your life. His lecture to freshmen about thinking outside the box has stuck in my mind ever since.
Re. The spokes fretting (not ideal as you note) and ignoring the effect would be somewhat less with their flat section, this serves a purpose:"Interlaced spokes take up each other's slack during severe radial loading and reduce the chance of spokes becoming loose. If spokes become loose, their nipples can unscrew. Radial spokes cannot be interlaced and therefore, lose alignment from road shock more easily. "Jobst Brandt, The Bicycle Wheel Excerpted from page 68 of the 3rd edition edition:
Well done sir. I love your work. Keep it going man.
Failure issue is certainly valid point.
These wheels have been in the market for couple of years and I'm sure they've sold tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands
I have not heard of any such reports About nightmare scenarios of Catastrophic failure of the winspace hyper wheel
Raoul, great review, love your testing toys. I'll be round the workshop Friday with my clippers to sort your lockdown hair out.
Been running lightweights with carbon spokes for 7 years or more. Not one problem with the spokes in thousands of miles.
Luescher Teknik's concern about the Hyper wheels applies generally to all bicycle carbon fibre constructions: the failure mode tends to be catastrophic. And where redundancy has been reduced (low spoke counts) catastrophic failure often means catastrophic consequences. This is the bugaboo that CF proponents still must contend with.
Great test, glad I picked up these wheels
How would you rate them today?
Topolino also made wheeels with carbon/Kevlar spokes. They absorbed road vibrations amazing well, but not laterally stiff at all, sketchy on curvy road descending. The spokes also had a tendency to have fibers start to peel off, scary.
@14:00 sounds like Raoul is branching out into piano tuning!
Wow. The spoke test really illustrates the strength of CF.
I'm riding the Hypers 50mm (on a Winspace T1500D frame set) and i use them with GP5000 28C clincher tyres.
At first i was using butyl inner tubes but then i just upgraded them with Vittoria latex inner tubes.
With butyl tubes, it was pretty uncomfortable on bumpy roads, but latex tubes makes a BIG difference, they are now wayyy more comfortable to ride on bumpy roads !
And they should be even more comfortable to ride them tubeless.
Wass, Ive read that these 50s are to be used with 25C since the inner width is 19mm. Nice to read that you are doing fine with 28C. Was about to buy Ultegra R8150 wheelset because its inner 21mm width.
@@cascomoto1 Yes, if you want the maximum aero gain with the Hypers you better use 25C tyres.
But i much prefer 28C tyres for the added comfort !
@@habana6595 whats your verdict? is it worth it to have hyper wheels'? and also using latex tube is it has a big difference with butyl or tubeless?
@@beckatolentino2761 Hypers are the best value for the money EVER !
I will probably never buy a big brand name set of wheels, just because it seems to be way over priced compared of the Hypers.
And yes, latex tubes makes a pretty big difference in term on comfort AND it will make you faster compare to butyl ones (i don't know about tubeless).
There are very light butyl ones, probably 5gr heavier than butyl.
Great video as always! Thank you Raoul 👌👍
Imagine if most component manufacturers offered anything approaching this level of insight to their products.. Instead we're reduced to listening to some mid pack ex racer harping on about 'feel' and 'confidence inspiring' again as if we're 5 year olds
I wish you were right. The reality is that the majority of the cyclist are hermetic to those rational explanations. I recall on BR a QnA on gravel wheels, Mavic explained all the differences they put on the Engineering and the comments were between “I don’t care” and “that’s rubbish” when actually they all made absolute perfect sense to adjust those elements…
@@cipo36an203 this explains all politicians
I own a set of these in disc 38mm version and actually am relieved after the vid! They stood up to testing beautifully and the only concern was that a stick may go through the wheel. I think I'm good! Thank you Raoul!
PS. The sound you heard wasn't from the spokes rubbing, but the pawls being a bit dry.
Considering a set of those. Do you like the butterfly look?
@@DanTuber yes I do, they compliment my Fairlight Strael nicely!
11:50 to 11:53. You can visibly see the steel angle bracket rebounding back to 90 deg after the load is removed. Just wondering if that would change the steepness of your charted results. I would have gladly welded some reinforcement to that bracket if I was in your neighbourhood. Thanks for an informative video. 👍
a squirrel ran into my front wheel, pulled up in the spokes and locked up my front wheel at the top of the fork, i flew over the handlebars and broke my wrist/ankle. i was getting spooked everytime a saw a squirrel after that cause their trajectory is so unpredictable. until some guy in Cali told me how to make a noise to scare em off. so if one starts trying to cross in front of you make that noise like your hocking a loogey but with the roof of your mouth instead of your throat. they seriously hear that and just take off back the way they came from lol
Wow, thanks for sharing. Here we have Kangaroos which are also very random in their travel path and BIG, I know a few people that have collided with them and come off second best.
I've started barking at squirrels. It seems to work. At least it gets their attention.
News headline "Mad cyclists heard barking at squirrels" ha ha ha
@@LuescherTeknik Try it. Beats a visit to the ER. Plus it's a no weight, no aero drag, no cost, no-added-maintenance solution, so rare in cycling (and so unlike the abomination we are not discussing here). And it doesn't add clutter anywhere, so your bike stays sleek.
In my first race, 35 years ago, a deer ran into the peloton... it was pure carnage... then I crashed in a separate incident.
Absolutely fascinating video! Really interesting and informative content. Thank you.
Another great vid. Thanks again.
Brilliant video as always Raoul. One of the first things I always want to know with wheels is how well do they stop? Having started with Corimas and gone through several genarations of Zipps, one of the biggest improvements I've found has been in braking performance. That's on rim brakes, obviously (and being a rim brake rider I won't go there either on the rim/disc debate). Aside from that and as regards the stiffness/ride quality of the Winspaces, how much could the harsh ride be mitigated by reducing tyre pressures? And in consequence, how much would a reduction in tyre pressure impact on the lateral stiffness of the wheel/tyre system as a whole? It's a fascinating topic all round and we haven't even got into the deeper aspects of the interaction between the lateral and torsional stiffness of wheels (though you do touch on it). Keep up the good work!
Tyre pressure has an effect on lateral stiffness depending on a number of variables this can be significant. My approach is to optimise the system for the conditions, not just change tyre pressure. In certain conditions this wheel would be hard to beat.
Agree about the braking performance.
Thanks for the honest review. I am looking at either these or the Elite Drive. What tires and pressures were you running?
Will they still be making carbon spokes for these wheels when you break one?? How easy is it to get a spoke?
I have the Hyper 50. I don't consider them to be overly stiff at all, in fact, I wish them to be even a tad stiffer still. Want comfort? get wider rim and tire. I also had the Zipp 303 and 404 Firecrest series, they were too flexy when out of the saddle.
About the squeaky noise of the rear wheel, in my case it was not from the spokes, it was from the endcaps. Greased the endcaps and noise disappeared.
so what do you prefer hyper or zipp?
@@beckatolentino2761 Hyper all the way. Lighter, more aero, stiffer, cheaper.
Wow wish everyone made reviews like this
As you confirm the spokes rubbing and obviously the spoke is under tension...
Is that a bit worrying especially knowing how carbon can fail, surely if the spokes are rubbing against one another you'll get wear on the spoke?
thanks for the video and explanation !
anyone here still getting hyper wheels after watching this and the comments by the owners ?
I'd love to see some scientific testing of wheel stiffness, and anything else marketed with "vertical compliance" as a feature. I'd wager that frames and wheelsets all come to the same conclusion... that none of them deflect enough in the vertical plane and that the rest is psychological. We want to feel something we thought the higher payment was for.
There was a good article about wheels on Sheldon Brown's website, with claims that lacing patterns, rims, etc. don't change the comfort of a bike, but tyres and tyre pressure definitely do.
So, if somebody wants to test away, I'm all for it.
my xc mtb wheel recently had to be replaced. It had 24 spokes sapim cxrays. cxrays are flexible spokes so people say it's great for mtb use (because the idea is that you want come comfort in mtb). well, I bought a new wheel with 28 spokes and thicker spokes at that too. So the new wheel is a lot stiffer. This is on a hardtail. But, I also use wider tires on the new wheel, the result is that the new wheel ride a lot softer then the old wheel. So yes tire plays a much bigger role in comfort than spokes.
You are having a hard time to give in to your own data 😜 Thank you for confirming my impression. I'm 110 kg. I've ridden my Hypers since spring. They are rock steady! Dead true as on day one. Apart from the carbon spokes I also believe the got the 2:1 spoke pattern in the rear just right. (Shimano has adopted that I noticed).
Mine do not make any sounds from the spokes at all. But there was sounds after a couple of month. Came from the free hub body. The pawls needed grease badly. I think they left the factory with a far to fluid grease. Could "your sounds" be the same?
I had the same creak you described. It was coming from the endcaps and not the freehub. You probably greased the endcaps and not realized that fixed it.
@@WanderingSword
No. I greased the hub body. It was dry as bone. And it worked. You had an other experience and solved it. So all is good.
38 or 50mm? I'm also a heavy rider...
@@radziyaman 50 mm. As I said no trouble at all. But I'm not riding them hard. No crazy criterium for me. Just cruising the back roads. Short stretches of gravel om My regular rutes. I'm riding 28 in the back and 25 in front. Tubeless. 6 bars.conti 5000 tl. As I said. Vere content. No troubles at all.
How would you rate then today?
I have the rim brake wheels 50mm, I love them but don't agree with the behavior in cross winds. Not top guessing it's the bladed spokes. About the stiffness, I followed torkpeak and changed fro conti 5000 25mm to a 28mm conti 5000, totally agree with the behavior in turns and perhaps due to the lateral stiffness.
Was getting annoying creaking noises which were really difficult to track down. Had a set of Lightweights, and their titanium skewers were elastic enough to allow the axles to move slightly in the dropouts. Solution: Dura-Ace skewers (stainless steel).
I don't like any of the titanium skewers as they are too elastic. The skewer is holding your wheel on use a good item, Dura Ace are excellent.
Curious that the rims are only 26mm wide which suggests some 25c tyres will be wider than the rim significantly reducing aero gains. I have a wheelset with 19.6mm internal width rims and my 25c tyres measured 27.3mm on that rim. The 26mm rim width on the Winspace Hypers is actually at the low end of current wheelsets and helps keep the weight low but perhaps at the cost of aero gains.While the Winspace Hypers test well for aero by Hambini, that is on 23c tyres.
The "aero" gains are dependant on many factors especially yaw angle, at low yaw a narrow wheel is faster.
If you really care about aero, you're running
@Luescher Teknik Unrelated to this wheel, but have you seen many Carbon-Ti hub failures? If yes, unsound design or poor quality? Or both? Beginning to see quite a lot of spoke flange & hub body failures ...
Mine roads rims hubs 20/24 broke too recently
All my favorite youtubers are In the comment section, oh my God I must be DREAMING
1.5x always! love the content!!
I just watched some at 1.5x much better.
Luescher Teknik...
The RUclipsr whose videos "other" RUclipsr Content Creators comment on.
I already knew the answer and trued the wheel successfully. Your answer was like a no answer at all.
Yes, the spokes have adjustable nipples.
I had the same iseue with regards to the noise. Winspace sent me some spacers to put between the spokes so that they won't rub.
what do you think makes the dura ace c50 9000 rear wheels have such a even deflection rate on both side? are the rims asymmetrical or wider flange spacing?
Good design!
I wish Winspace would make a track wheelset line. The stiffer the better for track at least, and we don't have the issue of sticks or whatever being thrown into the spokes. I've been in contact and they said they have no plans in the future so that's a bummer. As a side note, this whole stiffness "war" with manufacturers regarding frames and wheels reminded me of Moto GP and Ducatis years ago. Ducati was trying to and arguably did produce the stiffest frame, wheel, and fork combination. Guess what happened, the riders went slower due to a lack of predictability, feeling, and confidence in the whole setup. Stoner went slower and crashed a lot, blaming the bike's lack of the ability to pass information back to the rider and also the unforgivable nature due to stiffness. Honda also went down the same path and found that a little flex is a good thing! I'm not sure how applicable this is the bike racing but interesting to me at least! Thanks for your efforts with this upload!
Yes, I am well aware of the Moto GP stiffer is better (but actually isn't) days. Thanks for sharing. And agree they would be a great track wheel maybe as good as the original Shamals.
Great review that appears to be objective as is usual with this channel. I'm interested in getting a set of these wheels for an aero bike build I'll be doing in the next few months.
Luescher Teknik it's like Hambini but for people with brains not sawdust in there heads
Yeah though he’s sometimes exaggerating
Why is it when I asked Winspace for internal or external test house data they couldn't provide any. It's been left to you tubers engineers (that I have total respect for btw) to validate. So clearly they are good but without published data I can't sell here in the UK even if I wanted to. Also all wheel manufacturers are capable of this, so it's interesting why others have chosen not to?
@@altern8tive with respect I’m not referring to performance data of “my wheels are faster than yours”. I’m talking like the test taken out here, of strength, compression, pull, lateral loads, impact tests, torsion tests etc. The test required for sale includes ISO accreditation’s etc which everyone assumes is there and maybe they are but I never received proof. The aspect of safety not just how fast they are in a wind tunnel and when you say Winspace being open (that’s certainly one way of looking at it), however or just clever marketing, as in if you send them to enough influencers for free (and they admit it). Cam Nichols and Luescher are so far only a hand full of reviewers that either bought personally or independently given indirectly to test. There’s no denying though they are well put together as this video shows.
I always enjoy these technical discussions! Just one comment related to the spoke tension test rig. I noticed the steel angle bracket used for testing the spokes deforms quite a bit under the applied spoke tension load, it is quite noticeable when the spoke breaks and one can see the bracket springs back. Where and how is the elongation measured? If the same bracket is used for all testing, the results are comparable, however, the result is not the spoke elongation, but a combination of the spoke elongation and the bending of the angle bracket. If I recall the measured elongations they were in the mm range, however one would have expected more like microns elongation than mm’s. Thank you for always presenting some really interesting stuff, keep up the good work!
11:52 your pull test was done perpendicular. The wheel has many angles and therefore some spokes do not have pulling force perpendicularly but at certain angles. Are you able to show some datas for pulling the spokes at different angles? Which angle is the weakest load bearing for this carbon spoke or in other words which angle will cause the carbon spoke to break easily and the amount of Kilogrammes to do it?
A correctly designed spoked wheel will have the spoke load in tension as shown, off axis load should not happen.
@@LuescherTeknik Are you very sure??? The upper half spokes will pull the hubs and rims at all different angles!!!
I'm surprised that you would talk about spokes squeaking, but not the freehub sound....I personally don't mind the loud-ish freehub - but it isn't for everyone. I've had my hypers for this entire summer. I have them on my TT bike so I don't ride them all the time, but I really like the performance of these wheels. I've got 25's running tubeless at 80-85 psi and I don't find them especially jittery even on fairly worn roads. I'm not an especially light rider at just a bit under 80 kg. Hoping to drop 7-8 kilos this winter...so I guess I'll see if that makes any difference. But I love my Winspace wheels so far. Thanks for a great review!!
Could you get an SLC 2.0 win space frameset to cut up and look at?
i think GCN tried to destroy set of these, its not very scientific, i guess crude but if you haven’t seen it might be of interest.
Thanks for the great content, really enjoy your presentations, thankyou.
Questions to all engineers here do you think the weight of the rider will have some influence of the way the wheel behaves so maybe a 85 or even 90kilo rider may experience less or no traction issues with them?
Also how cornering will be affected by the same variant the weight of the rider? for example i weight 80kg aprox and in technical descents i feel lightweight brand wheels feel less stable than my dt swiss 1100 dicut 48 i use a rim brake giant TCR.
Rider weight has a significant influence, the bike geometry also.
The noise on the rear wheel comes from the fact that there is not enough grease in the free hub wheel, put some more grease and it will solve the issue !
This "problem" is well known on those wheels.
Good video，Sir！ Have you ever used ican wheels? I really look forward to you talking about ICAN Wheels. If you have such an opportunit
Send him some, that will work 👍
Great Content , I have 2 sets of the wheels and love them . I have a friend who had a stick go in his front "Standard " wheel and unfortunately his face was first contact point with the road , if the wheel had disintegrated rather than "grabbing' he may have had a better outcome . But its all hypothetical.
Do the spokes still touch in the current version? In my point of view are rubbing spokes really critical as Mr. Luescher mentioned in the Video in terms of wear and a possibility of a critical failure.
I live for the day that I am so aware and so good at riding my bike that I notice and get really annoyed at a "little squeaky sort of noise".😉 🤣
Thanks for a great and very informative video.
At the price these wheels sell at they are by far the bang for your buck any where from any wheel manufacturers,
They are better than my Lightweights, Enves, Zipps, Roval, DtSwiss etc for sure. Id NEVER buy brand name wheels again. Why would you?
Thank u.. I won't hesitate to make my order then.
I try to avoid crapy roads, abit rough some times but unlike cobble Road.
guess this are perfect
Don't know why Winspace don't put the spoke spreaders on as standard. My set creaked under load and was sent the spreaders which fixed the problem.
I've got 3 sets and about a dozen mates all have a set. The spokes don't rub or make noise. You just have to add some additional grease to the hub and you're golden. Not a common occurrence in these wheels but happens with all wheelsets
his said in the video wax or oil was affective to reducing the noise..
If it was the freehub waxing / oiling the spoke wouldn't make any difference...
I've heard noises can come from both the hub body and spokes 👍
How is your experience after more than a year?
@@kpsig no issues whatsoever. Own multiple sets in different wheel depths for different bikes and have their gravel wheelset too
Raoul: Have you ever heard of Berd polymer spokes? I would be very curious what you find with similar tests on a wheel laced with these unique spokes.
UHMWPE rope is a lot tougher than carbon fiber. But can't say for certain about the joints used.
Theyll probably just coat the contacting points of the spokes with Teflon to solve the noise issue. I'm with you on the stiffness being potential issue for traction, being not just a roadie but a keen DH and 4x rider too ive had fork and wheel combos that were too stiff and lost traction on off camber sections sooner than lighter builds. Stiffness in the forks has the same balancing act to play too. Also having been on a variety of disc brakes over the last 20 years I still find it hard to believe the pro peleton are having so many issues with disc brakes its nigh on comical.
they redesigned it so spokes no longer touch.
@@eto2352 nice one, thats a far better approach 👍
Have you determined that the sound was from the spokes crossing over or if the free hub was properly greased up cam Nichols had the same issue until he just greased the hubs.
Yup, Winspace addressed this issue with later batches by simply using better lubrication on the freehub pawls.
ALL disc hubs in ALL road wheels dry up fast because of the small rotors and high temps.
If you use road disc it makes sense to clean and regrease your hubs after every big day using the brakes.
@@durianriders are you saying that enough heat makes its way through the hub body to the other side of the hub to liquify and diplace the grease on freehub pawls?
Is there a comparably performing wheel in terms of aerodynamics that would offer less stiffness suitable to a lightweight rider like myself? I'm
About the spoke noise: It's the traditional way to lace a wheel so that the crossing spokes rest against each other. The claim is that the crossing spokes then somehow support each other. It was fairly common that the crossing spokes would even be soldered together. But did it ever have any benefit? Or was it just superstition?
Some years ago I started to lace my own wheels so that the crossing spokes don't go over/under each other. I started doing this because I found that flat steel spokes like CX Rays or Aerolites would sometimes make noise at the crossing. I haven't noticed any difference other than the noise going away.
R-SYS carbon spokes are being used in compression, not tension. The failure of those wheels was assured from the outset.
What do you mean?
Can anyone send link to information on the bike pictured in beginning of video? Luscher? That is sweet looking
I always thought the Madfiber construction was a good (or at least novel..) idea but that they just lacked in the execution....
Hi Raul good to see you back on RUclips again.
You mentioned the mavic rsys with full carbon spokes. What are your thoughts on safety on the mavic Ksyrium SLR from 2014 that have aluminium spokes on the front wheel and only carbon spokes on the non drive side of the rear wheel ?
I have been waiting far to long to hear someone talk about this carbon spoke subject. At the moment I shall be holding fire on using them and that has been my thought for the whole duration of them being introduced in to the market place. Yes yes. Good to hear what you had to say on those wheels Luescher Teknik. If Winspace were create a dedicated Track set then the stiffness may well be beneficial. Regarding stiffness regarding Wheels and frames I am a big believer and have been for many years that they can be over stiff, you need a bit a give when it comes down to using on the roads. That's my thoughts on that matter....
Overstiff - exactly. That applies to frames, wheels, and forks too! The latter is a problem for disc brake bikes that isn't often addressed - the disc brake fork has to be significantly stronger to deal with the braking forces than the rim brake force, this means that the fork isn't as forgiving in tricky situations where you are riding at the limit. Whereas a stiff fork might skip on the road, the more flexible fork will absorb some energy and keep you rubber side down. Not to mention the benefits in comfort
love the work
Very circumspect. Thank-you.
a new test of the current r45 generation would be great
guess winspace would be more than happy to send you a set.
Is stiffness compensatable with 28mm tubeless tires?
On the issue of spokes, any thought about cuben fiber spokes?
Why not order (>/
I didn't think about that but now that you mention it it makes sense, thanks for the feedback.
So your one concern is a freak accident of a stick going into the spokes?
Yes, I have seen this happen enough times with very serious consequences, maybe it is constrained by the location where you ride and is more of a problem in some areas than others.
@@LuescherTeknik How many spokes broke in the freak accident?
This happened 3x to me last winter during XC woodland rides, so it's not rare. Each time it was on very technical terrain, bellow 20 km/h, but I did bend the spokes and broke the aluminium nipples (this saved the rim from damage). The flying path of the sticks and stones lifted by the tires is sometimes unbelievable :)
All the spokes!
@@LuescherTeknik Must have been a big hard stick
At only 2.5g per spoke, maybe they should make a 1g version to better mimic the lateral stiffness of steel spoked wheels.
Couldn’t quite see from the tensile strength test, are the Winspace spokes round in cross section or bladed like the CX-Rays? Presumably that would make a difference to their strength (from a cross sectional area point of view)? Would also be interested to see a direct aerodynamic comparison between two all but identical wheels built with round spokes and bladed ones to get an idea of what (if any) the aero benefits of bladed spokes. Do you have any data you’re happy to share?