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Ceramicspeed (Ceramic) bearings versus Steel Bearings... An engineering explanation
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- Опубликовано: 13 май 2017
- Ceramic bearings versus steel bearings, the debate has gone on for a long time. I decided to test the capabilities of Ceramicspeed, Enduro, A cheap ebay bearing and the big bearing manufacturers.
The big bearing manufacturers win hands down. The vast majority of friction comes from the type of bearing seal. Contact bearings have significantly more friction than non contact types. The choice of balls has little effect.
Conclusion: Ceramicspeed are overpriced and inferior.
Checkout my website
www.hambini.com
Don't forget to subscribe to this channel!
/ hambini
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Surprised you didn't get objections from ceramicspeed. They were fighting back hard on fastfitnesstips channel after being called "Not worth it".
One of their UK outlets has threatened me with legal court proceedings. I told them to have a go and see how much damage they would do to their brand when they lost.
well i would say for nearly all people its not worth it, there may be a few who just want something different.
Ceramic Speed would never in a million years take on a guy like Hambini in court or anyone for that matter. Their strategy is to threaten legal action to shut people down from telling the truth about their BS claims and skewed videos without ever actually going to court. It’s all about posturing! If there ever was an actual trial case there would be a funny little thing called “discovery” and they would be forced to provide all their internal data to back up their BS performance gain claims, etc.... In open court they would lose such a case badly and be exposed big time for what they are. It would be a death sentence to their business model selling pixie dust ceramic parts at nosebleed prices based on bullshit marketing claims. They’d be dumber than dumb to ever go to any such trial.
@@rcg9573 in UK courts & legal system, CS could be found to be in breach of contract of sale as sold, for false advertising claims, if someone takes them (or they) go to court.
@@rcg9573 Sounds a lot like how Specialized operate.
Fellow engineer here, enjoying your vids, subscribed yesterday! Good job bro.
The simple bearing cage's purpose is keeping balls separated because adjacent bearing surfaces rotate opposite of each other. High precision bearing systems use alternating slightly smaller balls or rollers so they can be loaded without the need for the separation cages.
Ceramic bearing applications are typically for rotation speeds in excess of 20,000 rpm as they don't expand from heat and can, therefore, run much hotter. They run hard steel (62+RC) races so corrosion is an issue, just like standard precision bearings.
Stainless bearings are typically looser toleranced allowing for some environmental contamination without seizing.
Standard bearings are rated ABEC 1,3,5,7, etc but the actual assembly tolerances primarily affect the outside diameter only so be careful thinking that ABEC9 is better, they won't roll as easily due to tight assembly tolerances.
As a competitive racing roller skater we found that the race winners used a secret trick: buy cheap bearings, run them wet to corrode slightly, then clean & oil with superlight skate oil and they were the fastest skaters. It depends on the RPM requirements, skating & biking use very low RPM but quite high loading.
Bearings are a science of their own deserving much respect.
Well, yay me for having the same ideas to replace the cage, only like a hundred years
+ after engineers.
Thanks for posting - it kept me from asking an ignorant question!
Another fellow engineer here, this makes interesting sense. Run the bearings in a way that smoothes them out and ensures loose tolerances, use low viscosity lube just slightly heavier than WD40, use low friction seals if any, and derate the lifetime to days or weeks and you have a winner. Any Cheapo will work as it wears smooth, and you don't want anything that will hurt to throw away.
Back in the seventies the common practice was to remove the cage and Install an extra ball into the race. The myth was this spread the load over more area. Cages were believed to be there to ease assembly. Hambini explained the true purpose of the cage. Every other ball or roller undersized makes sense to me now also. As long as we don't use turbofan engines on our bikes that dwarf rpm any bearing on a bike sees we're fine with steel bearings! No use for ceramic on bike.
@@davidburgess741 Cages are there so you CAN assemble. Inner and outer are placed non concentrically and enough balls placed in the gap. the inner and outer are then placed concentrically. Now the balls cannot fall out, but the gaps would be inconsistent, hence the cage is added. The number of balls you can put in a normal bearing is defined by the geometry of the balls and inner and outer races (how many balls you can fit in with the cages non concentric) and the design of cage you can then fit around them.ruclips.net/video/i_P23J6g5o0/видео.html
There is such a thing as "Full compliment" bearings, where the races are jammed full, but there is a notch in the races to get the balls in. ruclips.net/video/ykMGHFy93dE/видео.html
I guess thats what engineers talk about at coffee shop lol, good thing we have Hambini in this world
After 30 years of being an avid roller skater, FINALLY someone explains bearings (the physics and all else involved in bearings and cages) in a way that I can actually understand! Not a lot of “science” involved in roller skating but when it comes to knowing and understanding wheels and bearings, which is a must for avid skaters, there are so many worthless videos that I was loosing hope of finding out the difference between ceramic and steel bearings...until I came across your video. I opt for Bones Super Elite Swiss bearings, which has worked perfectly for my indoor roller skating. Thanks so much for this video. You’re on “a league of your own” and it’s much appreciated! Besides, I hate to waste my God-given time in less than appealing, completely off topic or personal bias opinions from click bait folks. Cheers from the USA and again, thanks so much!
Lu! What bearings do you use these days?
@@tbrowniscool Hi! That’s a good question…My Bones (wheels) came with steel bearings. I’ve never used ceramic bearings.
I miss skating!!! Our local rink has been closed to the public since the pandemic started. 😞
@@LGFITNESS1 Same! It was so simple back then! Small groups enjoying skating...when I really think about how how fucked the 2000's babies it's depressing. Im 32 and remember knocking on the door of my best mate! If I could change the timeline I would pick being 18 in 1953 in the USA..
BTW anyone reading this buy some bitcoin... Its a better chance than having your amazing inflation coin..
@@tbrowniscoolThere’s pro’s and con’s to every timeline and generation…but I understand your point.
By the way, wish I could afford to buy 1 bitcoin… 😂 But the bitcoin market has crashed and is pretty low at the moment compared to what it used to be. I just count on my husband’s and my own faithful “hard work” and income and try to enjoy life and be grateful (to God) in all circumstances. I do hope to roller skate again in the near future. If our local skating rink never reopens, I guess I’ll need to find roller skating rinks somewhere else…
@@LGFITNESS1 hey, quick tip...buy more and don't worry. For the last 18 months I have been kicking myself why I didn't sell when the bullren manifested itself. But I also didn't sell when I was homeless in my van in January 2020.
Bitcoin may suffer for the next 2 years but as I felt in 2017 its the future... Its such a tempting/logical solution!
There is little more satisfying than watching really smart people do really awesome (and tedious) science for the benefit of all. Huge thanks for this. Very enlightening.
Agreed. The dude is unabashed and genuinely hilarious too. His content is one of the only things that actually make me laugh out loud on a regular basis. And I always learn something.
~10:54 "If we come on to this next slide and talk about, uuhhh... it." I lost it there.
What a crazy idea - to collect and USE data to inform a presentation on RUclips!
I don't ride significantly, but subscribed.
Thank you for raising the bar!
This guy saved 109 000 cyclist not to go bankrupt because of ceramic speed marketing. Respect and good video and explanation 🙏
I am not a cyclist although I have a bike.
So how much money do you guys spend to save 6 FRIKIN Watts every 1000 Km?
That is like what a quarter of a slice of bread or how many grams of fats??
@@thedave7760 I thought that was an average constant loss, so its like 6 watts being lost between cranks and wheels in real time. I don't think he would use watts to express power over time. I should say I do basically agree with you though, waste of money to consider most of these unless you are racing or your bearings have already failed, in which case go for it
@@thedave7760 you're not even going to lose 6 watts between wheels and BB. Use steel, and just go harder. That's not where to spend money.
Cyclist: a person who rides a bicycle.
Definitions from Oxford Languages
He tried to save 109k cyclist, but 99k couldn't understand the mechanics, so they bought the Marketing and will forever justify the purchase.
That is the most comprehensive analysis I have seen. It's interesting to see that a spin test is not a good measure of friction as that is what everyone seems to use to advertise the benefits. Ceramicspeed must be crying.
Well remember that Ceramic Speed does not even use an unbiased so called spin test. They intentionally load the non ceramic parts they are supposedly comparing to their own with thicker more resistant grease, etc... to make the non ceramic component usually look more inefficient compared to their own product. Not only a pseudo science invalid comparison, but a completely intellectually dishonest one given how they rig their so called comparison tests as well. If I run across a rider sporting their snake oil products I just laugh at them. If they ask why I’m laughing I’ll actually tell them why too. 🥴😊😊
As a long time mechanic in a high end shop, we're all well aware there are in fact, plenty of those 'suckers born every minute'.
If someone asks me for my opinion I would gladly tell them what I've known as truth. If they tell us they want the latest and greatest components with ceramic bearings we will gladly relieve them of the incredible burden of their cash burning holes in their pockets!
Where I live in Silicon Valley, mechanical knowledge and manual dexterity are in short supply. Many cyclists looks at us blue collar types as mechanical wizards. When in fact, a bicycle is an extremely simple machine...... or it certainly could be and has been in the past.
Pretty much all new 'bike technology' is literal job security for mechanics such as myself! We are busier than ever and have been experiencing record service and sales numbers!
The reason the steel cages have lower friction is that they hold the bearings at their point/axis of rotation whereas the polymer cages snap onto and contact the balls at their rolling periphery
Excellent video, very educational, I've been a mechanical engineer for 30 years and still learned a lot here. Thanks
So how important is it to cup the balls? I’m asking for a friend...
When they are on fire...
When they in kneeing distance
Not as important as it is to use the correct lube...
@@huss03 :DD
This is a great review of bearing technology. It covered the basics for the guys who know nothing then it went into detail giving a balanced assessment of the pros and cons for each type of bearing. If I hadnt seem this I'd almost certainly waste my time and money follwing marketing hype for ceramic bearings.
Still love these videos. Everyday I'm wading through a sea of cycling industry BS over here. We need you back, Hambini!
I am not even slightly in the market for bearing upgrades, and I always assumed that Ceramic Speed were effectively snake oil, or, at least a way to make merely expensive drive trains, hideously expensive, but I never thought that they could make things worse.... Good grief.
Great video. Glad I finally watched it.
Conclusion: Invest in good steel bearings. If you want to reduce losses, look for appropriate seals and suitable bearing cages! Well done. Appreciated!
Great video and brilliant information.
Thankyou!
RUclips has only just started serving me up your videos. They're great! I can't understand why so relatively few subscribers. Anyway, you have 1 more from me. Thanks 👍
I am a bearing engineer working for one of the manufacturers highlighted in the video. Your conclusions are correct although there are some additional factors not considered or understood. For example cage clearance is one reason why you measure torque differences at low speed between pressed steel and plastic cages. Bicycle bearings ALL rotate at low speed ;-)
On the next occasion I'm in Litchfield, I will come and say hello.
Well, I got taken by CS advertising hype. ...but not anymore! Thanks for all the time you take to educate us.
Great video! We need more honest people like you in the bicycle industry. You're very bright too of course. I found your website recently while researching some bike stuff and you explanations helped me a lot. Thank you!
I stumbled onto to your channel this morning, and as a consequence I've spent most of my time watching your detailed, objective, well-arranged and coherent presentations. Scientific!! Well done!! I've subscribed. Thank you!!
Mike Torres thanks for the feedback! these videos take a long time and i put a lot of effort in so your comments are valued
Dear Mr Hambini - your presentation skills and your attention to detail are really impressive. I have a question from the last century on which I hope you or your following will satisfy my curiosity. In the 1950s I would watch my grandad strip the wheel and bottom bracket bearings of his trusty Raleigh once a week. This is the bike that enabled him to earn his living as a bricklayer cycling to jobs all over Cambridgeshire. Sit-up-and-beg, rod brakes but a 4 speed Sturmey Archer at the back and a hub dynamo at the front. Also a tube of zinc chloride batteries on the front of the down tube which he said were to keep the lights bright when peddling slowly into the wind. My question is ‘how efficient were his bearings in relation to modern ones?’ given that there was no seal friction or cage friction. Or , come to that, no grease friction. I think I remember 3-in-1 oil. In addition to the weekly strip he also inspected the balls carefully and replaced any in doubt. He obviously felt this weekly task was of benefit. So was he wasting his time or was he maintaining his bearings at a higher level of efficiency than our modern ones? Or just using it as an excuse to hide from granny!
Excellent video, ceramic is really only needed for high temperature high speed environment like a turbocharger that spins 110k rpm at 950C. A whole different animal.
Kind of similar to the fact that most common and available radial contact cartridge bearings used in blingy 'high end' hubs, were actually designed for use in electric motors. These are for high RPMs. They often spec a lesser grease fill for thermal expansion. Hardly ideal for a low rpm application like bicycles in a dirty environment. Cartridge bearing's seals are what causes the most rolling resistance plain and simple.
Just a few companies spec specific bearings just for their hubs. Chris King is the only one who actually produces his own. My King hubs and headsets STILL use the original bearings after over 25 years and over 100000 miles.
I think it's ironic and quite telling that Shimano and Campy have used loose ball angular contact bearings for decades.
Fools everywhere believe they're inferior because you need to overhaul them a little more often. Its a 15 minute job! Cone wrenches l, grease and high quality balls are pretty cheap compared to cartridges, removal and press tools!!
Ive still got a bunch of older Dura Ace, XTR& XT hubs and they all work great!
Ive got Campy Record hubs from 1977 that are still smooth and fast. They are my fastest wheels for a fixed gear bike. These bearings have no seals!
@@rollinrat4850 Hambini did a clip on why cartridge bearings are faster than angular contact in bicycle wheels. You must have missed it.
@@henseleric Perhaps in a perfect world, I might agree. Since I'm a pro mechanic, I see how many folks actually care for their junk. I can see all the reality. That's CERTAIN job security for me. Hambini in particular admits he doesn't service his hubs often. Ive heard him say it! I'm not blind either. His personal gear is a mess maintainance wise. This is a pretty common thing for people who fix other folk's junk. Ask me how I know.
Even a cheap cartridge bearing on its own is a precision device, but the part it's interference fit into effects HOW the bearing functions. This requires precision machining and proper inspection. I know for a fact, QC and proper manufacturing is a joke in the bike industry, so does Hambini. It's why his site exists.
Ive machined my own hubs, I can make them as perfect as I want. Ive machined and installed bearings on things that fly, operate on racetracks over 100 mph, as well as a surgeons instruments.
How many hubs have you adjusted and rebuilt? How many bearings have you replaced?
I've serviced thousands of hubs. I do at least one everyday at work. Ive built custom wheels for 30 years.
My personal 43 year old Campagnolo Record hubs still roll faster than most of the rest of my wheels.There's no bearing seals. Hambini talks about bearing seals and how they cause the most friction in a bearing. If you want your wheels to roll faster, remove the bearing seals and use light oil instead of grease. Track racers do just this. Ive probably rebuilt my Campys well over 100 times in their lifetime.
I'll just assume you've never tried a high end set of loose ball track hubs or a Sugino Superlap BB. Plenty of pro riders ride on that sorta stuff. Believe it or not.
More often, pros just ride whatever their sponsors provide.
My Chris King wheels use proprietary angular contact cartridge bearings. Theyre about 25 years old. The bearings are original and they're almost as fast as my Campys yet require far less maintainance. There's probably over 100000 dirty muddy miles ridden on mine.
Here's the reason sealed bearings aren't always 'most efficient IF they're installed in sub-quality hardware. It doesn't have much to do with the bearing itself. Common radial contact bearings are non adjustable. Lots of riders don't regularly service their junk. So it's not always in a perfect state. So you can't keep them in a perfect state of adjustment like you can with AC bearings.
Therefore they never last as long. Youre riding on bearings which are in a constant state of compromise and slowly degrading over time. So ideal bearings and idealism are one thing, reality is something completely different.
Someone gave me a set of beautiful shiny White Industries track hubs with regular RC cartridge bearings. The tolerances are good on these. I made sure. They are indeed beautiful, but I still need to replace the bearings every other year or so. Therefore they are rarely in a state of perfection. Do you believe sealed bearings last forever? I know better, I replace them all the time, again, that's job security.
On newer high end DT hubs the last couple years, (supposedly pretty nice hubs) I've noticed they're not accounting for plating in their machining tolerance. I can measure this. I'm a retired machinist who owns precision measuring instruments, just like Hambini. I know what the tolerances are supposed to be. I can read and look them up in a machinery handbook. I see barely used new DT hubs that are rough as hell. I remove the bearings and they're miraculously smooth removed from the hub! Now WHY would that be? I order new bearings, install them and the hubs are still rough as hell. I always measure mating parts as professional practice, so I know what the result is going to be. What would that tell you?
This has been a common issue I experience often on many hubs and other bike bearing assemblies, not just DT. Similar bearing fit issues are EXACTLY WHY Hambini makes expensive aftermarket BBs. If these issues didn't exist, and manufacturers actually did their freakin job, Hambini wouldnt have a bike channel, cussing about overpriced bike junk.
With loose balls or AC, intensive inspection isn't required, since you adjust preload independently of manufacturing.
Maybe that's why Shimano and Campy massed produced their hubs for decades, using AC bearings.
I was a mechanical inspector as well. A source inspector too. Nobody's fooling me. I own vehicles with turbochargers. I know what reallt expensive bearings are designed for. My I know all about the bike industry's 'attention' to QC. So does Hambini. Almost every one of his videos covers problems related to QC. Theory and perfection, as in 'shoulda, coulda, woulda' are pipe dreams. Reality is the real world.
If you've got more questions let me know. I'm a real world expert. I try to build and sell what I'd personally ride. Campy, Shimano and CK, very few others are what I'd recommend. If my customers know better, I'll still take their money. I used to recommend DT, but no more. Like many other manufacturer ms in the bike industry, they are DEVOLVING. Reality simply is what it is.
@@rollinrat4850 slow day at work huh?
What did your setup look like to measure the wattage absorbed? How did you measure these? Thanks.
Best video on ball bearings for the cycling industry that I have seen! Thank you for explaining things so that a five year old can understand them.
Absolutely terrific video! Reminded me of systems analysis lecture: just changing one piece - in this case the ball bearings to ceramic - does you no good, because addressing the whole system - in this case the bearing assembly, was ignored!
top quality video Hambini, taught me a lot... Funny going back to these old vids and not hear you swear lol. Full watch from me :)
Amazing content, finally some scientific, no none sense explaination, i subscribed after à few minutes
Good content, but what I want to compliment you on is your articulacy and English usage. When words are all we have to understand each other by, a premium is placed on our choice of them. And in contrast to those who pepper their sentences with redundant "So," and "like" and banalities such as "amazing", your clarity & fluency is a pleasure to listen to. Bravo!
I always wanted to know how bearings are working, with all these tiny balls between the rolls. Today I stumbled across your video and have learned a whole lot. Thank you!
Super high quality tech talk. The thought of Darkinstall giving same talk about all these balls frightens me.
Thankyou for the feedback.
Great video, thank you. Question: your point about testing the bearings without load being misleading makes a lot of sense. Did you load the various bearings you tested for your analyses of power absorption at 90rpm?
Brilliant presentation. Thanks for the info. My road guy has impressed this upon me for years. Not in the specific way you did but he knows his stuff and doesn’t rip me off. I like that
Just make sure you don’t get old, we need you.
You are the lock picking lawyer of the cycling world.
Do you think you could do a video or would have any interest in making a video on how to DIY the fastest bearing by buying a steel Bering and then replacing the grease with faster smoother grease or oil or something? Could make some interesting content.
+deanoturn1985 thanks for this. I'll take a look at the idea
I’m a newbie to the channel respectively. I find your presentations to be some of the best on RUclips, keep up the great work.👍
I appreciate that!
Slightly unrelated to the actual topic. I service old steel bikes with loose ball bearings. The number of balls present wrt the number that a race can accomodate varies wildly (wheel hubs are always filled up, pedals sometimes have one less ball, headsets have 1 up to 3 less, freewheels leave even more space unoccupied etc.). Beyond lore, i have failed to find any explanation as to why. Is there any sound theory behind this ? Is filling up bearings with as much balls as possible always a good idea ?
I'm NOT a bearing expert but I've always heard that you should have one ball less than will fit in a bearing with loose balls.
Sorry i'm late to the party....But..What an Excellent breakdown on bearings! Thank you so much Hambini! I would love to see you do a similar vid on chains and lubrication. Wet lube and dry lube and their effects on performance and longevity of drive chains. Look forward to the next engineering masterclass my friend!!! :-}
Thanks for the feedback!
After reading and seeing many articles and videos in preparation to building a lightweight road bike I have come to the conclusion that many riders place their priorities as: fashion, tradition, and then data - and, to a larger than expected extent, this also applies to the professional riders.
I think many riders will be shocked by the real world data relating to the over-priced 'ceramic' bearings. I will now start looking at some of the manufactures you highlight towards the end of this video with regard to bottom bracket bearing options.
+BMH1965 I would buy a look any day of the week now
Well explained, I think I have a massively better understanding (in comparison) than before. Now all I need to do is find the right ntn bearing for my 2012 Mavic wheels!
thanks for the feedback
Thanks for all your good information! Just a minor point: I suggest you get a lapel microphone. The microphone that you were using was too far away and picked up more room sound (echo and reverberation) than direct sound. Also, the sound changed a lot when the camera was moved.
31 people use ceramic speed.
That has tickled me...!
Looks like it is now up to 57 easily duped and gullible fools using Ceramic Speed. LOL
up to 193 now. Useless bell ends.
@@rcg9573look who's fool now. Drag racing motorcycle,car all were using ceramic bearing now. Better lap times better mil per hour times faster mph. Whoe bimbo now huh
6:35 - It's also a crap test because of the difference in grease used.
Another outstanding, objective, data-driven assessment preventing foolish cycling investment. Thank you Hambini!
Thanks for sharing your in-depth study results. You have just saved us a lot of headaches. That must have been an expensive study to perform. You are a generous and dedicated man. Best wishes for your future!
hi. and what about cup and cone bearings? after watching this video i start to think that there are the fastest because no cage in it. thanks for video
it is worth mentioning here that it is not just that they have no cage.. but that they are angled toward the loading. since, from what i have observed, the load is coming from the power part of stroke on the crank that is pitching the the bike so the BB and even the wheel hubs have a more lateral induced load and not vertical. so cage or not i have seen good info to suggest that using sealed linear bearing like these are fundamentally worse off than the angled races used for cup and cone designs. interestingly enough the cup and cone seem to outlast sealed bearings, though more services has to be performed during its life to insure that. but sealed def win on application where just keeping debris out will offset what lack of vertical load they are designed for. wet dirty salty roads.. go sealed on the BB..
I've always said bearings need to be tested under load, Gcn have brainwashed numpties. Ave done a video on ceramic vs steel bearings a year or so
ago. Well worth a watch also
Hello, I’m really curious to know if you could repeat this with full ceramic bearings vs the hybrids you had (steel rings with ceramic balls) thanks !
13:43 somebody please help me understand this graph comparing chinese bearings to the good ones, it shows -9 watts compared to the OEM, does this mean if I am using the OEM bearings and average 250 watts riding 1000km distance @ 35 km/h and 90 rpm I would have to average 259 watts using the chinese bearings to finish the 1000km in the same time?
you are smart that's what I was thinking I like steel .Ceramic it hard and will eat up the steel so what will last longer hot steel or Ceramic eating steel I think after the Ceramic eats the steel it will spin faster by hard so is its tricking people now a full Ceramic might last long but in some uses but Ceramic is so hard that it can brake easy maybe in a wheel bearing hitting rock idk I like to see testing. next we will have diamond bearings
57 thumbs down... presumably employees and owners of Ceramicspeed lol I guess their bearings are only good if you are competing.... and only if you can afford to replace every 500 miles or so!
I have over 8000 miles on my F1 ceramics...just say'in.
@@Geeios1 Nobody is denying the ceramic bearings don't last. The issue is for the price, you aren't getting many benefits. Not to mention, the low friction benefit doesn't pan out over time, it becomes the same or worse as stainless bearings that cost a fraction of the price.
Geeios1 I lost track of mileage on my 1st set of Chris King hubs. Original bearings, 25 years old or so. Theyre faster than new. But I could guess theyve easily got over 100k on them. Ive got CK headsets that are even older.
Ive got Campy Records over 40 years old, but I replace the balls at every overhaul. It costs less than $5! These hubs are so fast I need 2 or 3 tooth cog smaller on my fixed gear to keep from spinning out, Compared to my usual W.I. wheels. If I used ceramics they dont make small enough cogs!! Haha!
@@rollinrat4850 www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_180_Catalogue_spare%20parts_tools_Campagnolo_2000_part_C.pdf Out of interest, just went back to the year 2000 Campagnolo spares catalogue. They've been using the same bearings, cups and cones for 20 years at least. I guess if it's not broken, don't fix it. The old 8-speed Record hubs were pretty bulletproof too.
Damn, came for a quick answer, experienced Ph.D level lecture. Thanks, keep up the good work.
The best comparison of the steel vs ceramic bearing debate i've seen. thank you!!!!! I am always looking for the fastest and smoothest bearings for bicycles, skateboards and rollerskates. Thank you!
Thank you very much!
'Balls--which everyone should be familiar with' lolllll
Outstanding video, bravo and well deserving of accolades. Never expected any of the contact mechanics laws from my PhD to appear in a youtube bicycling video.
Would swapping wheel bearings (say from a common DT Swiss hub) to some of the well made bearings you have examined be a worth while investment of time, or just plain vanity?
Thanks for the feedback...
I don't know what DT swiss has in as OEM, if they are decent units, I would leave them in. If they are unnamed garbage then swapping them out will make the ride smoother and the wheel will roll better - but you won't notice it. The bit you will notice is the increased life of the bearings.
I'm not a fan of stainless steel bearings. By the fact they are stainless steel, they are more likely to gall (cold friction weld) than standard ones and they also have a much higher rolling friction coefficient. I'm of the opinion that the bearings should be changed more frequently.
It should be noted that even stainless steel bearings will corrode if you ride in a salty environment - Coastal or Winter
Hambini Arent standard loose balls chromium? I own numerous old loose ball hubs and a couple old loose ball bottom brackets such as Campagnolo and Shimano. As long as you maintain them properly they spin more free than most anything I own. I replace the balls and grease before and after every winter if Ive been riding them a lot.
I overhauled a Campy Record cassette hub for a customer and its design amazed me. I believe it had 3 sets of loose balls and a roller bearing. I also own some old Stronglight roller bearing headsets which were relatively inexpensive and have lasted for over 30 years under serious abuse. I disassemble them and the grease looks contaminated and metallic but they always return to their original smoothness.
As you can tell Im a fan of old school bike technology just because it really works. I believe angular contact is the best application for bike components. This is what has been traditionally long lasting and seems a logical design in my point of view. The fact that loose balls are seen as outdated is disturbing!
I put lots of hard, dirty miles on all my bikes and components. All my bikes, even road bikes see dirt duty and I choose components with longevity in mind.
I own some Chris King hubs and headsets and see these as the ultimate in bearing quality and longevity. Chris is the only builder who manufactures his own bearings I think! Theyre all still using the bearings they came with originally after well over 100000 miles.
Ironically, my fastest, smoothest front hub is an early 90s Mavic 571 like what many pro race teams used in that era. I believe it uses sealed cartridges but dont know what type they are. Ive never needed to overhaul it! I was also given a White Industries track hub and am underwhelmed by its bearing quality or build quality. Its on its 3rd set of bearings after just a couple years. I need to measure all the fit tolerances to see if it can be improved somehow. The new axle I installed seemed less than perfectly machined. On the outside its so shiny and pretty! It funny I have old beat up looking loose ball hubs that seem to last forever and spin so fast opposed to the WI!
sabamacx Ive never looked to see what bearings DT uses. I just replace them with Enduros as this is what we stock in our shop. I like German made SKF’s quality. Thats what I would use. Ive tried angular contact sealed bearings but none of the suppliers could reliably tell me which direction they should be installed. Several shops gave me different info. Its kind of important!
Awesome video!! Thanks for all the info!!
Ceramic speed bottom brackets come with a 4-5year warranty which is why I put one on my winter/gravel bike 😂 figured they aren’t 4 times the price of the alternative BB I would have bought which probably would last a year with all the crap I ride it through in winter.
Mr. Hambini, thank you sincerely for keeping this video understandable, using visuals, and considering your American viewers! Great work!
I love my american viewers they write in with some hilarious questions!
I don't understand how this channel and DarkInstall have so little views.
'Cause most of the people doesn't care about reality. Not just in cycling but in anything.
People don’t want to hear the truth, they just want to be believers. Example, most people believe they know something about eating and dieting, but ask them where does the fat go? All these lunch time experts have no idea. Same with most things. The power of marketing and propaganda is really unbelievable! Why it is such a big industry.
Too technical for most.
@@waynosfotos that right people dont like some body told them they were wrong that how human works in their head
I remember I worked for a bike shop who sold bling. A barrister walked in with his cervelo and started telling me how impressive his new ceramic bearings were in his zipp wheels. He told me they were about $2000. I asked him where he got them from and he pointed at my boss. After he left I asked my boss 'what the f? $2000 bearings??'. My boss who never laughed did his best to not piss himself laughing. This was back in 2004.
Dear Hambini,
Your videos are awesome.
I would like to make a suggestion for a complementary video testing the Token Premium and Token Tiramic bearings. Best Regards, Rodrigo.
After many insufficient videos i ended up here looking for an answer for (inline skate) ceramic bearings. Well that's out of the way now. Many thanks!!!
You are indeed correct about how bearings under load, behave differently than free spinning them with no load. That's that big difference, for sure.
Ironically the enduro bearings have the least endurance...
They wear out so fast the word needed shortening!
Endure....... ohhhh!
Ive got high quality loose ball, cup and cone style components that are decades old and still spinning smooth. I overhaul my hubs once or twice a year. It takes all of 15 or 20 minutes and costs less then $10 for new balls and a tablespoon of grease. Cone wrenches are inexpensive as well!
Why do you recommend removing the seal from the inner race side? Is that not the working side? Would damaging it not lead to poor sealing down the road? Thanks!
We are on 2021 September, any changes on your opinion about ceramic bearing? Any new video about it?
Wonderful engineering advice, thanks Hambini. I will save money!
fantastic video .you saved me a lot of money confirming what Darkinstall said about ceramic speed...overpriced snake oil.
danny oneill :)
You are alive!?
Hambini Performance Engineering not really mate. Still very poorly. :(
oh dear. hope you get better soon.
Hambini Performance Engineering thanks mate. This video is absolutely excellent, by the way. Can I link it into my laymans version so people interested in the full info can watch yours?
Thank you so much for taking the time to do this video. It was truly informational, and I appreciate you passing on the indepth analysis, and findings of your testing! Great job! I was considering ceramic bearing for a different application, and I believe the findings would be the same. Again thank you.
excellent presentation .. my gas turbine has 688 ceramic GRW bearings . and they are still going strong after 20 years of occasional use in my model helicopter.
You've got balls to mess up with ceramic speed 😂😂
what could they do?
go to court: theyre fucked
bitch on the internet: cause more attention to the issue and make more people discover why theyre shit
a mate worked at canyon when their video hit and he said the time was a hell for customer service
Shit,
I'm getting rid of my Enduro ceramic bearings!
I work for a company that rebuilds industrial electric motors. Everything from little 1-5 HP motors to multi-thousand HP motors that are over 100,000 lbs. Pretty much everything is running steel bearings. They are the only thing that can run 24/7 for multiple years. Only getting shut down for oil/grease changes. There are some very special cases that use ceramic. From my understanding, it's mostly for high temp applications. Must the motors we work on do not spin fast enough to need ceramics but some are used inside furnaces for steel mills and places like that where temps get pretty insane.
Chad Bremer Not only, for temperature. We use them widely for making milling machines in high speed spindles up to 10k rpm. If you want precision and speed the only way is ceramic. The weight of the metallic balls at that speeds stretch the outer rings and destroys the spindle.
@@daviddegaray7735 I understand the high speed applications. I specifically stated that most of our use cases are for lower speed motors. It is not a hard and fast rule, but most really big motors/generators that we see tend to be sub 2000 rpm. The real bid stuff is less than 1000 rpm. I don't see everything that exists, obviously. Most of what I see is from power plants, mines, rail, and paper mills. Not a lot of crazy high speed stuff in that. At least it is not coming to our shop.
Chad Bremer Everything you say is correct, I'm sorry, I wasn't correcting you, it just explained another specific use of ceramic bearings. As you said it’s a kind of a special case in mills. In our case is to take advantage of the smoothness running, low weight and highest precision (grades 2-3). The combination let us to design tough, very precise and very fast spindles. The hot it’s produced both for low precision housings and misaligning and extra oil, we are always introducing and removing the oil with a pump in order to evacuate it and avoid cumulations. The less oil the lowest the hot.
The applications less than 6k RPM, can be done perfectly with steel ball and permanent grease.
@@daviddegaray7735 no offence was taken. I was just clarifying myself. Needless to say, none of us know about or have experience with all applications out there.
Revisiting this - maybe more questions to come later.
1/ Is it possible to "service a bearing" by removing the seal, adding grease to the balls, then re-using the seal? Or does one have to replace the entire bearing cartridge completely ?
Honestly, how could you make this video without laughing?
:-)
God, I still must be 12.....
in here are balls... which i'm sure you're familiar with
this needs to be shared around. Pure GOLD
what equipment did you use to test the rpm of the bearings and can it test 4x7x4mm
bearings
Understanding that bicycle application for bearings makes Ceramic bearings a non starter because of the slower speeds. do you have any idea if ceramic bearings might be worth having on skates? Given that a typical wheel spins at 3000 RPM per meter and a normal 10 race will exceed 40 KPH?
So if the inner and outer races & balls were ceramic, you'd stand a better chance? [I am more interested in avoiding rust than speed.]
Excellent technical explanation. Very useful for those of us who change their own bearings.
Seems ceramic bearings were at some point all over the place, not only for bicycles but on some less speedier devices: telescope mounts. In such applications, where we don’t really care about speeds - unless you consider a faster slowing of under 1RPM “fast”, they do need an absurd amount of precision and quality not to “bump” while anchoring some pretty delicate (and pricey) gear. Is it worth to go ceramic for this application, or just using the metal based name brands will do the trick? Not asking for any friend, I do want to get some better bearings on my EQ Mount ;)
The graph at 12:00 explained it perfectly for me. The extremely small ball deformation percentage makes steel and ceramic bearings very close in performance indeed at lower speeds. Nice video
Found this in 2020 researching about bearings. I kinda bought racing bearings for my motorcycles and they came absent without seals. And has some sort of plastic retainer. Never seen any on the market since.
How about 30K RPM is it better plastic or metal retainer? will metal retainer also reduce friction than using plastic and add some more rpm?
I did have an enduro ceramic bearing bottoms bracket on my last road bike. It was noticeably smoother than the one that I took off. Maybe the previous BB bottom bracket bearings were wearing. Anyway, I had previously upgraded the the wheels, to DuraAce C35s, and they felt like I had an emotor, because the wheels compared with the stock aluminum wheels, which felt like they were dragging in comparison while coasting. Acceleration was noticeably better, but they were lighter. I attributed most of the performance gains to the better bearing races. I was a heavier rider at 92 kg. I figured a smoother rolling surface and less deflection of inner race. Better to have good steel balls and races than crappy races with nice balls. The findings on this channel are consistent with a few others and what I have learned through trial and error.
I was hoping to see something about full ceramic bearings. Do you intend to re-visit this subject now 3 yrs have passed?
With the prices people pay for frames, forks, components, etc, a few hundred for full ceramic could be a realistic proposition? Due to the hardness of ceramics they could survive in road bikes without full seals and just be shielded (Z, ZZ bearings) or even open?
@Christian Kläy I know very little about full ceramic except they are significantly more expensive. I have heard they can be run dry without issue though as the balls and races are so hard and any dust or dirt will be crushed to powder without damaging rolling surfaces I guess running without seals and with some form of dry lubricant could lower friction without picking up too much dust? If non contact labyrinth seals were developed they would probably be fine in mountain bikes, water won't affect them I know they have been used in racing motorcycles for several years at speeds up to~over200mph. Not sure if the bearing bore size need to be different compared to steel or hybrid bearings? Several years ago (late 1970's) I was making 35mm bearing housings to a 3 micron tolerance but re-machining something already made is actually way more difficult. From watching 'Hambini productions' it seems majority of cycle manufacturers have trouble getting within 0.10mm so I guess 0.003mm is totally out of the question?
This leaves me wondering, is there anything wrong with removing the bearing seals that face inwards in a hub for example? Here they are already sealed off from the environment so surely seal friction can be halved without consequence
Excellent explication. I am now empowered and informed. If one rides to burn calories though, frictional losses are irrelevant. Counterpoise: if one has mechanical sympathy, any mechanical system should be optimised. Shannon
What a great explanation,
I am a drummer and the drum pedal which move forward & response backward (they are not rolling like bycicle pedal), which tipe of bearing would you recommend for smooth & faster action of a drum pedal?
Thank you.
so for wheelhubs the best choice is ntn llb 10-26-8 bearing with cn2 and taking the inner seal off right?
What a plot twist! 🤣🤣🤣 Can’t wait for the explanation to the refinery thing.
After watching this video you had me searching these websites for bearings in my size to replace my cheap eBay/Chinese bearings I am using now. I cannot find a bearing manufacturer that makes bearings in my size though! 12x26x8 or 12268-2RS (rubber seal?) that are made by any sites that sell high quality bearings. The closest I found was 12x26x9 which I believe will not work. Any recommendations?
Wow, a very excellent presentation and your expertise and the manner in which you share your knowledge is impressive. Very articulated and easy to grasp your explanation on the fundamental differences of these two bearing designs. I wish you were my college instructor back in my younger years. I would be facinated and intrigued with every one of your in depth lectures. You have me as one of your new subscribers. Thanks a million for this brilliant video.
Good day can you please recommend the best bearing for RC nitro engine as Thay spin up to 45000 RPM AND ARE OPEN CAGE OIL LUBRICATED
What about bearings for pulley derailleur, are there good Steel options to upgrade?
So there you have it! … I knew there would be absolutely no reason for me to suffer my guitar lessons by studying more physics back in high school … I had a funny feeling that a type of “RUclips” phenomenon would eventually make it into the main stream and I would simply just be able to “hang out” with the geniuses, living vicariously through their brain functions … but I do play a mean guitar now, so it’s all good! Thank You Hambini!
You say ceramic bearings are for high speeds, what are your thoughts about ceramic bearings used in rollerblades, inline hockey? So far, bones swiss 6, bones red, and hilo swiss are the best I've used so far. I am thinking about purchasing ceramics but the price is quite substantial
he stated clearly at the end that ceramic bearings are for high speeds, i.e.-automotive, manufacturing, etc. and stated he absolutely would NOT purchase them due to excessive cost and no performance gain in human powered drivetrains, i.e. bicycles & rollerblades. your question was answered in the presentation…
Don't have time to watch but my understanding is that ceramic bearings are great in industrial applications (sterile, extremely high RPM) and a completely ridiculous, counterproductive waste of money for cycling applications (dirty, low RPM). Is that right, or do I have to watch this later?
that website is a proper reaming of hambini🤣 my god i was not expecting to see an oil refinery job.
Thanks for this, I am interested in being more self reliant on bike maintenance and this is fascinating and convincing.
Hope you don't mind me asking here but I can't find the video where you mentioned that headset bearings don't make a single turn in their whole lives. This resulted on my ancient 520 after many miles in 'brinelling' where the balls made dints in, presumably, the outer race - you could turn the bars about 10 degrees from straight ahead and they would go back to straight ahead. I guess eventually the bearing would break up if you left it long enough, which got me thinking; is a ball bearing appropriate for a headset? Wouldn't something like a tapered roller bearing be better? Is that what the expensive guys do?