Thanks all for the comments, I am respectful of all. A very large cross section of experience and knowledge is shown in the comments. The problem that I am trying to overcome is that there is a thing called MUSCLE MEMORY. It says that the REFLEX that you learned in early days during a time of stress, will be what your body will resort to again when faced with the same stress. The brain kind of goes into shock and your hand can get to a switch or knob before your brain or eyes ever knew about it! Teaching people to jam forward to the stops on all six levers and then put flaps up is a very strong early memorized trait that is difficult if not impossible to overcome. Most people come up through the ranks in small piston twins where this technique works because jamming all six levers forward doesn't hurt anything. Reaching for the flap handle during any low energy situation is always going to cause further degradation of lift, if not full stall. In the Colgan accident, the FO reached for the flap handle and moved it to the full upright position during the most critical time point in the stall. The she realized what she did and told the Captain, almost like she became aware of it after she had done it. She made the statement after the fact..."I put the flaps up." The Captain had been trained to never lose a single foot of altitude during a stall, the FO had been trained to power up, clean up and hold altitude. The last words on the CVR were translated by the NTSB as "We're down" but what he actually said was "We're dead." 22:16:37.1 HOT-2 I put the flaps up. 22:16:40.2 CAM [sound of two clicks] 22:16:42.2 HOT-1 [sound of grunt] *ther bear. 22:16:45.8 HOT-2 should the gear up? 22:16:46.8 HOT-1 gear up oh #. 22:16:50.1 CAM [increase in ambient noise] 22:16:51.9 HOT-1 we're down. 22:16:51.9 CAM [sound of thump] 22:16:52.0 HOT-2 we're [sound of scream] 22:16:53.9 END OF TRANSCRIPT He knew after the flaps were suddenly retracted and the nose fell through 60 degrees on pitch that it was over. The problem? Muscle memory from early days kicked in for both of these pilots and their REACTIONS were guided by their early days of instruction. For multi engine training, there is NO NEED to push all six lever forward and then retract flaps! You had the power and flaps set via your departure briefing and know flap setting (Full power on most light twins) The answer and the proper training response from day one for all new multi engine students that I have used successfully for 12 years is : ENGINE FAILURE! GEAR UP! IDENTIFY VERIFY FEATHER BLUE LINE CHECKLIST. The scenario mentioned in comments regarding an engine failure on short final with energy and altitude is a completely different scenario and not time critical. I invite your comments. Respectfully....Dan
Thanks Dan. Another important point I felt the need to make when I read some of the comments under the video, is that it doesn't take a very high DA to maybe require some leaning before take off to set max power... and that would be a case where, even in the Seneca 1, that if you lose an engine, and then fire walled your carefully leaned mixture in the good engine, you could flood it and loose partial or complete power in that one too... Anyway - I am not a CFI - I should not get into the weeds making a comment like this - but these were the concerns I wanted to raise and question in this video, and I think it has successfully done that. Thanks to all that have been a part of the conversation. EDIT: I have also retitled the video to make it clear we are trying to start a conversation about an alternate way of thinking.
This is an awesome airplane! I did not realize there was one so close to my home base in pinebluff ar. might need to take a quick trip to check it out .Dan seems like a lot of fun to fly with .Thanks for the videos Flightchops really enjoy riding along.
Couldn't agree more with Dan. All he was trying to say is that they teach you as if 100% of the time you're supposed to react the same way and that this should be part of your muscle memory. They should instead make it clear to the student that in this particular light-twin it's the correct procedure but it might be different on different aircraft. That way the student won't store it as muscle memory if that makes sense.
I really do not know what exactly the first officer was thinking. Having over 800 hours in the Dash 8 she should have known better. My point is when you are a pilot you should adapt to the equipment you are flying and know every bit of it to the best you can. You fly a Dash 8 like you should fly a Dash 8, you fly a B747 like you should fly a B747 and you fly a Cessna 150 like you should fly a Cessna 150. Many times I believe there is a lack of classroom knowledge specially in the States (The knowledge required to become an airline pilot in Europe or Asia is 100% more). Pilots are many times taught do it this way, not that way, but rarely is the question 'why not this way' discussed. A light piston's flaps are inefficient and the only thing they give is drag. But a Dash 8 or any other large transport's flaps are very different. They create immense amount of lift and retracting them without gaining a proper speed can be catastrophic. If you are an airline pilot you should know it and act to it. You go back to training in the simulator every six months if you are flying for airlines. That is where you gain the muscle memory and change any memory that is required to change. If you cannot, something is wrong. Either you or your training.
I saw on Mayday that the captain selected an icing switch which activated the stick shaker at a higher airspeed. It was questioned as to whether the pilot knew what this switch did. Also, weren’t the ATR’s known to be unstable with certain flap configurations during icing? Was the plane in the Colgan incident initially in a stall or did the pilots stall the aircraft when they reacted to the stick shaker?
I'm a current MEI who teaches in the Baron mostly. The reason why we teach cramming everything forward in the light piston twins is because they are exactly that: light piston twins. Anyone who has ever flown one on one engine knows how anemic the climb rate can be. We cram everything forward and suck the gear and flaps up because we need every ounce of thrust we can manage and as little drag as possible in order to stay in the air. Most piston engines are designed to operate at maximum throttle continuously and if they're not then they can run at that setting long enough for you to control the situation and pull them back to their max continuous setting. He also mentioned that raising flaps in an engine out situation will kill you. Well... if you remain at or above blue line then raising flaps will not kill you. You have plenty of rudder authority to control the airplane single engine in any flap configuration. To say that the procedure we use in light piston twins is wrong because of how larger piston twins fly is wrong in itself in my opinion. There's are many many things that change when you move up in size of airplane. In the jet engine failures are identified with engine gauges in addition to feet and we dont verify the correct engine by moving thrust levers. That dead engine should already have been verified before ever moving the thrust lever. So does that mean we should stop verifying dead engines with throttle in piston airplanes? No. It's a jet, it's a different airplane and requires different procedures just the same way that this is a DC3 and not a Seneca; it requires different procedures. Just my two cents.
Flightx52 That’s a great writeup. I found the same thing as I progressed beyond trainer twins: anything heavier is going to involve simulator training or at least an in-airplane training course where you learn what the real procedure is for that type. Like many things from initial training, you leave behind the rote basics and pick up more in-depth skills.
I agree, currently training to be an MEI (did all of my training in a seminole) and it really shows in the drag demonstration we do. We will have full power in our operating engine, right on blue line and still be sinking if we have flaps in. Also we lose 50% of the thrust but up to 80-90% of the performance, so we need as little drag as possible if we want to have a positive Vyse.
Also working on finishing up my MEI. And I agree, conventional multiengine flight training is not wrong at all. Steve and Dan are applying the procedures for a light twin on a heavyweight. That in itself isn't right. Now, sure you can use if for a frame of reference, but in the edit it sure seems like Dan is railing against the conventional wisdom. I do respect his dictum, as I respect his experience. But conventional wisdom isn't wrong. This requires the addendum to the "Train like you fly, fly like you train." It's more like "Train like you fly this type, and fly like you trained to fly this type."
It’s fun watching the lights come on for you. You’re flying with greater skill and confidence with every video in spite of the fact that you’re learning in a T-6 one day followed by a Maule then an ultralight, a Seneca, an L49 and a DC-3. It’s what you must do to produce interesting new content but it’s a broad aviation learning experience that the videos preserve for you so you can relive those lessons again and again.
Great episode. You drove Ole Doug like a pro. That is one of the most important airframes in aviation history. It's great that you had the opportunity to actually fly one. Training with Dan is kind of like drinking from a fire hose. Anybody fortunate enough to get a few hours of training with him should record every second. Then you can go back, unpack and digest all those life saving nuggets at a more leisurely pace.
When you're standing in front of the airplane looking up; the plane dwarfs you. It is humungous! If you feel completely comfortable, you're insane! You are in confident in your training, experience and in DAN! Another great video Steve. Thank you for sharing and congrats on flying this very large aircraft!
I knew N143D when it was owned by Academy Airlines and nicknamed "Miss Alligator" from it's forced landing in the Everglades. I was taught by Aubrey Swazey and typed in October, 1993. I'm glad it's well-cared for and still flying. Thank you, Dan.
Thanks for sharing the experiences you get the pleasure of taking in. I'm unable financially to get my ppl just a single engine rating but I live vicariously through your videos steve. Thanks for keeping the dream alive man!!! Keep making em cause you're doing great.
Cool experience. Just a word of advice coming from another CFI-ME ATP Pilot, in my opinion there are quite a few accidents in the history books from new pilots to very experienced pilots in both piston and jet aircraft who reacted too quickly during an engine failure and shut down or feathered the operating engine. I agree with him that people will inherently panic momentarily or be surprised when a true engine failure occurs. Following the “standard” procedure assures that you will have full power to the operating engine. Skipping that step and going straight to a securing phase eliminates the opportunity to catch a mixture too lean on a go around that would give you your power back for example. Also rushing to secure the engine on a engine failure during takeoff scenario opens the door to make a already tough scenario impossible if you happen to miss diagnose the engine that failed. Taking the time to run that procedure ensures you have a few seconds to take in your whole surroundings and understand the scenario you are in. Then after those moments have passed you can peruse a securing flow if you have determined that it is necessary. Just a few words of advice from one pilot to another. Enjoyed the video, wish I had that opportunity. Blue skies!
Also, this is a general procedure and the jet I fly doesn’t follow the “standard” procedure also but it was similar to a lot of the midsize piston and turboprops that I have experienced. The process for what you are learning is a good process. Always learn the airplane you are flying. Good day.
Considering the difficulty of flying the plane back in WW2, props to the pilots for keeping calm while flying one of the most complicated machines of the time, all while literally being shot at. I've heard some incredible feats that pilots have done, like some insane dogfighting stories.
Yep, gotta fly the thing for a bit to get used to the way she feels as she flys. You fly so many different types the trick is knowing that each one is different so as you get familiar with each one, the training for each one will stick with you better. You will understand better. What a great adventure you’re on right now. Have fun!
It looks like you had quite the adventure. I have been teaching multi engine for over a decade. Your conversation is a very valid one. But you are talking about different things. You cannot compare a DC3 or a Jet, King air, Etc to a light twin. It is easy to back seat quarter back but you are not reading what that checklist says. Says forward, some say max power etc. You use what is required! A great example in a Seneca 1 is an engine failure in a missed approach, you see the runway go for it plane pulls out on you dear or bears on the runway a kids playing on the runway doesn't matter they have all happened your props, will be full, mixture rich, gear down, flaps full, and guess what you push the throttles up for a missed approach and bam. Only option get everything full power and go, if you don't feather the prop, get the gear and flaps up, you will be screwed, self induced lowered chance of survival. I'm sorry the checklist is there for a reason. Any aircraft you fly will be set for take off that is what you bring up, you don't touch anything but identify verify and feather. They are teaching you to increase everything forward because you loose 50% of your horsepower but about 80% of your performance. If you pitch up and try to maintain altitude the plane will loose airspeed over time and will eventually stall. Say in cruse you are economy cruise 55 % power both engines, you don't touch anything your engine quits guess what you now have 28 percent power.... windmilling propeller, say we were doing multi training and it really quit. We are trying to maintain altitude not lose speed we had the gear and flaps down doing stalls... Every item on that checklist will be very important.. Fly the plane, blue line, mixtures forward- may not firewall it at 7 or 8000 feet say in the mountains, propellers need to go forward to get maximum rpm for the most horsepower and throttle up. Gear up, Flaps up, those are checks, to make sure they are up. not necessarily to retract them. But in a good on Seneca 1 if we crap a motor in a go around you have to get them up. There is a HUGE difference between flaps down and up, especially at altitude, it doesn't say slam the flaps up it say retract, which will happen slowly. Your question is good, but it is very much airplane and very much situation dependent. Normal take pretty much every airplane is the same This really happens, I was in a 421 had a bad oil leak diverted into land. It has big geared engines so you have to baby and take care of them. I was inbound flew the approach came out at 800 feet at an uncontrolled airport. at about 300 feet a Mooney that was in the runup area made a call he was taking off I said on final single engine. He didn't reply took the runway. I initiated a real single engine go around INTO IMC the clouds Set MP up Pushed the propeller lever up leveled off, got the gear up, retracted flaps, and side stepped the runway and got it to go around and flew by the Mooney. It felt like an eternity to get it to start climbing, But I bet you if i left the flaps out it would not have climbed. I only had approach flaps in. I had probably about 3000 hours of multi time when that happened. By the way the Mooney turned down his number 1 radio when he was talking to his phone before he took off because someone was making radio calls and he never turned it back up until after i went wizzing by. So my 250 FPM climb into imc will full power was all I got with a feathered propeller, gear and flaps up and all shes got. 15 min later I landed. So I take the checklist as being correct and the memory response kept me alive. I read the Colgan remark below doesn't apply the were not single engine they pulled back in a stall, does not apply to single engine and memory response. The MU2 response is not valid because that is not what the memory items and procedure is for it in that plane. Great video good discussion. Keep flying tail wheel it is an art.
Very nice sir. The crosswind God must hate you. Seems like every time you get to fly something new it blows hard 90 degrees from the runway. Loved seeing the control wheel hard left and then hear you say that's all the rudder we got. As for the proper engine out procedure, you have to know the airplane your flying that day. What works in one doesn't mean it will work in all. Keep up the good work.
Love the DC-3! At this time I have started my tailwheel and have 2 3 pointers in my book. Both of them happen to be squeakers, so I may be just a bit proud of that. I'm sure the wheel landings will be humbling.
The mantra is Control Power Drag Identify Verify Feather and _THAT_ is what is industry standard. How you go about doing it is specific to the aircraft and the situation. Full forward depends on the aircraft. I did my multi engine training on a Piper Turbo Seminole. Like the DC-3, it will overboost if you firewall the throttle... so it’s max Power- _NOT_ full forward. Also.. it depends on the phase of flight. On an ILS or visual final approach, the last thing you want to do is destabilize the approach by adding full power to the good engine. Read, understand, and apply the POH/AFM engine out procedures for your specific aircraft. One like a Champion Lancer requires you shut down the other engine since there is no way to feather. One like the 337 requires identification by gauges and you’re supposed to leave the gear down (drag in this case is increased by retracting it-especially if your failed engine is the one with the hydraulic pump). One like the King Air feathers it automatically and you retract flaps through blue line. Also.. most commuter and transport category aircraft have engine out climb segments with specific speeds (like V1) to target and specific flap retraction schedules. Don’t apply that knowledge to a light trainer..
Damn! I've got a big smile on my face now, and I wasn't even there :). Oh, and that last takeoff looked a lot better than the first one, it's obvious that you're picking up on your mistakes, and not repeating them. Another great video.
Well we’ve been thought the same way Dan mentions. We were thought that every plane is different and that for example a turbo-charged Seneca will probably get you over the red line, that is overtorque on your only working engine during an enigine failure if you simply push everything up. I think you have plenty of time to fly the aircraft first and then push slowly everything up watching those engine gauges and being aware while doing so as not to overtorque the engine, instead of rushing. Completely agree with Dan! Thank you for a great video Steve! (as always ;) )
Got to pass right next to Oshkosh the other day, and it is gorgeous. Is it weird that I recognized landmarks like the railroad from practically studying these videos? Haha. Anyways, thanks for the videos! Always continue to inspire young aviators.
I agree totally with Dan. Love round engines...and he's so right about single engine procedure s on t/off. When you have to wrench on them; one does becoming posesive on flight procedures, pulling prop through on preflight etc.not hard to bend a rod if not carful etc.well done
One of my most favorite episodes thus far. Not only did I learn few things, but I was entertained from start to finish. Great job FlightChops! Btw, Dan is the man without a doubt!
Maintain take-off thrust on engine failure on take-off, yes. With Seminole/Senica that IS full throttle and pitch. In that sense it is the same, but the checklist should be something like "check power" rather than the light-twin specific "full throttle & pitch". That way, if you have reduced to climb power, and then suffer your engine failure you are reminding yourself that you have a bit more performance avialable if you need it. In a jet airliner, if you are performing a flex (reduced thrust for engine economy) take off there is the option of increasing to rated thrust (although you can leave the thrust setting at flex, as you have calculated that is sufficient for single engine performance as well).
I live just up the road from this airport and see this plane parked outside all the time. Wish i would of known you were in town would of came out and met ya! Great video FlightChops!!
Irony - I taught Mark to play guitar in 1990 or so and now he has a successful band in the area - hey Mark thanks for the note, Im going to come see you guys play pretty soon! Dan
Beautiful plane. They used to fly DC-3s out of Blackpool to the Isle of Mann here in the UK back in the 80ies. Never got tired of watching and hearing them.Thanks for sharing this. btw Interesting to hear 'the full monty' being used in NA I thought it was just Northern English :)
Love the DC3! Hope you get loads more time in it! There was a moment there where Brock's face looked a little, umm, sweaty, how did he fare in the back? Great content as always.
I am amazed at the attention needed to fly a dc3! It involves higher intelligence than average! World War 2, found above average to train and to fly not only a dc3, but many more of the 4 engine aircraft, b17 etc. I have always wanted to fly like a bird above the earth! I admire those you do and have. DC3 is my favorite aircraft.
I agree, I've done some extremely basic sim training, but I understand the point made, jamming everything forward I can't imagine working, even from an engineering perspective. Definitely needs looking at. Maybe it needs to be unprogrammed, so verify, gear up then decide as required. Maybe I don't know. But definitely worth thinking about.
Your video could not have had better timing with regards to the Convair 340 accident at Wonderboom in Pretoria, South Africa on July 10. Engine fire on take-off, 80% of a circuit flown at only 300ft height and could not turn for finals off of base before crashing - was flown by experienced airline pilots. Everyone is speculating online about cause and pilot action possibilities and I think this video adds great value to that conversation.
I guess you learn the appropriate technique for the type or category of aircraft you are training on, Irrespective of your future flying aspirations or past flying experience. I guess the nomenclature used by flight schools and the authorities can be a bit misleading, as you would expect after taking a Multi Engine rating Course to be qualified to fly Multi-engine aircraft in general, yet in reality you get yourself a ticket to fly a light piston twin and a license to learn how to fly other more complex multi's with their respective procedures. Thanks for another awesome video !
Not sure why I like coming back to these older videos. For some reason, watching these senior aircraft fly, especially ones like the DC3 that still WORK for a living, it just makes me happy in some way. Might be an offshoot of advancing age past the halfway point. 🤨 In terms of “engine-out” procedures, it would seem that your radial engine procedures would be a better idea for basically ALL aircraft. In the boring truck world, it’s always better to drive as if you’re in a finicky truck that doesn’t let you get away with sloppy driving, that way you don’t end up doing something that it may not let you get away with. A particular aircraft may put up with fire walling everything, but why increase possible risk?
I can understand both sides of the argument, I mean in something big like the DC-3 you have the luxury of an abundance of power, there's no point slamming everything forward and taking the risk of loosing the good engine too if you have enough power on one engine with the power setting your at. On top of this pulling the flaps up when your in an aircraft so heavy isn't such a great plan, you may be able to fly flaps up, but your likely already trimmed to fly in you current flap position, why increase the work load by forcing yourself to adapt. That being said, I also understand why it's taught the way it is, in a smaller, relatively underpowered aircraft you don't have that same abundance of power, so when you loose half your available power you need to make the most of the power you have left, hence pushing everything forward to ensure you are getting everything the engine has to give. Flaps wise a smaller aircraft is much lighter and the loss of lift is not as critical, however the reduction in drag by bringing the flaps up is going to be a big help. Honestly, I think what it comes down to is know your aeroplane, know how it preforms on one engine and know how it's gonna fly at various speeds with various stages of flap. I don't think the issue is with what you're trained to do on the Seneca, that may be right for the Seneca, the issue is when you attempt to transfer that to other aeroplanes, every aeroplane is different, handles differently , and hence you need to adapt your procedures to the aircraft your flying, rather than take a one size fits all approach. That's just my 2 cents on the matter.
Streaky100001 I agree. His whole point was that the light twin trainers now are no longer Model 18 Beeches and Lockheed Model 12’s. But that’s the way things were when they and the DC-3 were new. Today’s training is good for today’s air planes but you must adapt to new procedures when you transition into a new plane. The thing that keeps you Alive in an Apache will be of little help in a DC-3 and have no relevance whatsoever in a pressurized Skymaster.
In many planes lift to drag ratio actually tends to be better with some flaps. The only reason they have the full up setting at all is to allow reduce total drag and increase cruise speed when using engines above the bare minimum power and lift is in excess. I had the chance to study a bunch of wind tunnel data back in college, a ton of common knowledge is actually quite inaccurate.
I think his point makes a lot of sense when it comes to power settings. If you lose power on takeoff your takeoff power has already been set. On a light twin that is firewall power, on older radials or turboprops it isn't, but either way your power is already set so it would make sense to skip that training step that puts the firewall power thing in to your muscle memory and pay attention to reducing drag first?
Dan has been my hero since I read how he provides instruction in the DC3. It was great to see him teaching in the airplane. As to the procedure of putting the engine controls full-forward, that's airplane type dependent. But on the propellers specifically, I think it's reasonably safe to put the controls full-forward in all types I'm aware of... The airplanes I've flown with constant speed props have governors. If the governor is properly adjusted (done by the mechanic) it allows the engine (and prop) RPM to accelerate right to the red line, which as others have commented, is allowed (for at least five minutes at a time). If you ever find that setting the propeller control full-forward causes the RPM to go over red line (likely discovered on the initial takeoff roll) then the airplane should be put in for maintenance. That said, in some cases, advancing the prop control too fast might allow the RPM to exceed red line briefly, which is why the control should be moved smoothly. On this point, my experience is that RPM is more likely to go over red line with rapid increases in throttle setting (rather than prop control) because of limitations in how rapidly the blade angle (pitch) of the propeller can be changed by the governor. The propeller blade angle not adjusting as relatively quickly as the engine torque rises (caused by rapid throttle movement) allows the RPM to increase in an uncontrolled way. This can be more likely with a cold engine when the oil/grease viscosity slows the action of the mechanism. Smooth throttle advancement keeps that from happening.
At the school and charter company I work for where we fly Britten Norman Islanders for charter and Beech duchess for training and we don't teach to jam the controls forward and its not in the company SOP's when conducting charter ops either, we train to step the power up to the next level. For example if we're are at climb power we'll step upto full forward, if we're at cruise power we'll step upto climb power, descent power we'll step upto cruise etc. And as far as flaps go we'll definitley take them up during take off as there just isnt the performance, in the cruise they should already be up and on an approach to landing we will quickly assess performance and decide if flaps need to be raised or not. It makes sense that all aircraft are flown differently and thats why it is impotant to familliarise yourself with an individual aircraft and its procedures before flying it. However the INTENT of the multi training philosophy is to burn into a students mind that if an engine fails they imediatley check Mixture, Pitch, Power, Flap, Gear and make sure those 5 items are set where they need to be in that particular aircraft for that particular stage of flight. Anyway, really good topic of discussion that would be good over a beer!
Great video, loved the first DC3 one as well! Regarding the checklists, although I’m not rated so take it for what it is, I would tend to agree with the other comments. Twin piston training aircraft should probably be considered a different breed, hence different checklist because their single engine performance is known to be barely enough to keep flying. They are designed to be cheap to operate and small so in an emergency it becomes VITAL to get every last inch of power as quickly as possible. The bigger aircraft will of course have much more power in reserve and of course different procedures. I believe the DA42 are the real new generation where you might treat them more like the jets you might fly later. Auto feathering and FADEC as well as modern aerodynamics and materials change everything. Sorry for the long post :)
It all depends on the aircraft you are flying! Every airplane is different and therefore the procedures will be different in most cases. When dealing with engine failures we need to be thinking about the term "Max Power". Max power is a term used in aircraft where if you were to go full forward on the throttles you could potentially damage the engine. Different aircraft have different "Max Power" settings. A turboprop may have a engine torque limit and prop setting that you set to achieve the "max power" settings. A piston aircraft although normally full forward on everything is very common, certain aircraft will have a specific manifold pressure and prop setting like the DC-3. I believe this theory is lost when conducting flight training on a multi-engine aircraft as it is much easier to remember to mash everything forward than it is to remember a specific power setting or try to be precise when it comes down to setting "Max Power". Finally always remember to slowly and smoothly advance the mixtures / props / throttles to max settings as if done too abruptly you could actually damage the engine or have a real engine failure! With a piston keep it smooth! Cheers
LOL! DC-3 Run-up checklist. 1.) Check for piper cubs behind you!! Took a fraction of a second before I caught that, then remembered your first DC-3 driving at the big fly in. They waved you off the taxiway out of line of departing aircraft for run-up and gave ya'll the OK, then let a cub taxi right behind you and it practically got ground looped in the prop wash. Great humor, good awareness! Regarding the engine out, I rated learning in a Twin Comanche which has very close numbers. almost everything regarding critical numbers is between 90-112 mph (Yes, it's so old its' POH and airspeed is in mph) and Vyse (Blueline - Best single engine rate of climb) at 105 and Vmca (Single engine minimum control speed) is 90 mph, so energy management is critical. This plane, originally anyway, has standard engines, both turning clockwise, and therefore a true critical engine aircraft. Counterrotating props remove the critical engine scenario, but still low & slow is doubly dangerous in this twin, even below Single Engine service ceiling at 5,800 feet ( above which you can't climb on single engine, but will slowly lose altitude until SESC, [excluding density altitude concerns]). The training for mixture, props & throttle full forward is good and is understandable to provide ONE simple tool for best outcome while first learning, and in passing the Practical especially in the "lowlands", but mixture should have been set for best power, and at higher altitudes, you're actually hurting performance to push forward past best power to full rich. Simply put, KNOW your aircraft, its' performance envelope, and especially the environment you'll be flying it in. Regards.
I would say you should know your check lists and understand why its written that way. They're written to help with the most common situations. Make your own adjustments to it based on your situation. It's important to understand the airplanes you fly.
Hey Steve, That was great, interesting point about multi-engine training,just wondering then if you took the point back to your multi instructor and what were his thoughts on this ? I'm only a single engine guy at present so would be interested to understand this more , thanks again :)
I whole-hardheartedly agree to "train like you fly and fly like you train" but I can also see why the current standards exist. Training new students to firewall everything helps squeeze every ounce of power out of the light twin in a timely manner. On the other hand, every old habit to train out just adds to the type-certification or additional training when the pilot eventually steps up to more powerful aircraft. If the problem only manifests itself when the pilot steps up to turboprops or powerful piston twins, I see no reason to change it because not every pilot will leave light twins, though many will. Every new airplane has it's own unique challenges but un-learning old habits can be an additional factor of stress. This isn't going to be settled in the RUclips comments section, but I say that new pilots training in light twins should firewall everything and clean up as quickly as possible to keep the plane away from the ground.
Wow, wow, wow. Loved this video and what a cool aircraft and instructor. Going to have to get me some DC3 time, and that'll be a big step up from my RV10! Keep the great content coming Steve - and more like this please!
I'd be curious to learn more about whether adjusting the flaps with engine failure in a large aircraft is ever an option . Given that that the Captain on BA flight 38, which lost all power on final at Heathrow, raised the flaps from 30 to 25 extending the glide approx 50m, the no-flap-raising must surely not be a hard and fast rule?
Transport category jets can climb at any phase during an engine failure. We don’t retract flaps until reaching the F bug anyway. Just as an engine failure in a Seneca is different than a DC3, an engine failure is completely different in a jet. Nothing needs to be done quickly in a jet except regaining directional control.
I'm in central Texas and we just lost our C-47 out of Burnet (The Bluebonnet Belle). I'm curious if you've had time to read over the initial report and have any insight based off of your C-47/DC-3 time.
The whole point to the don't touch power argument is that on takeoff you are already at max power. Remember these drills aren't for in the climb where you have More time and max continuous power set. On or just After the take off you will be at take off power which should usually in 99% of situations be at the engines max rated power anything more can damage anything. His point being if its already set at max as it should be why touch it then if you do trasition to something like a radial or pt6 engine without fadecs you'll naturally fall back on your training and go full power in a emergency situation causing engine damage and failure. So to summerise in a light twin takeoff power is already set so don't need to touch power, in anything else redline power is set so touching power will cook the engine. As for the flap argument yea thats definitely on a. Type by type and weight basis.
I haven't flown prop multi engine, but i do fly jet multi engine. Regarding the theological crisis of an engine failure and firewalling everything, I'm curious as to the manufacturer's definition of "forward" vs potentially "full forward". Again, I'm not familiar with your aircraft, but seems to me it could be a poorly worded checklist item calling for verifying that throttle, mixture, and prop levers are in a general setting above cruise but below firewall to compensate for the loss of power. "Forward" just seems to me a very generic term for "more thrust" and not terribly specific to the actual position of the levers.
No, light normally-aspirated (not turbocharged) piston twins do specify FULL FORWARD. It's not a generic term, it's specific - for those airplanes. For other airplanes where full forward is *not* appropriate (e.g. a Seneca II with fixed wastegates) the procedures are different.
If he's military, it's pretty much guaranteed that's what he did. However, since he doesn't have any relevant experience, he shouldn't have commented with an uninformed opinion.
In regards to the procedure: fly the plane you are in, not the one you want to fly. In a light twin, cleaning up the airplane in an engine out situation is top priority because of the certification (Part 23). A DC3 or a King Air have enough horsepower to literally power out of a situation like that. Your standard Piper Seminole does not.
On larger jet aircraft the rudder is designed to keep the aircraft straight with full thrust. But if a takeoff has been excecuted with reduced thrust (often done to save engine life), in principle, there is no need to increase thrust to maximum take off thrust. As an extra safety measure though, most companies will require you to apply full takeoff thrust anyway. Retracting the flaps early is a giant nono!! The aircraft I teach on now (I'm a SFI on the Bombardier challenger 300), has so much thrust, that, in case of an engine failure, you can climb with takeoff thrust and flaps in the take off position (10 or 20), at V2, untill 1500ft AAL! In this aircraft there is no real level accelleration segment. A DC3 would be a totaly different story!
Even though the servicing must be impeccable on this machine, it would be tough to think that we expect something older than ourselves to perform flawlessly 100% of the time.Although It must be normal in every airplane to run in your mind an exercise in evaluation and procedure every time all the time. I cant help but think there would be an elevated sense of it in this airplane.
It might be interesting to know how many updates the plane would have. Especially things of an electronic nature, like monitoring or alarm systems. Would be hard to think that electronics have not made their way into Ignition or charging systems as well. Not a lot of faith in that from where I stand.
TheCanadianBubba, That old school stuff works! To put in electronic ignition and fuel injection would be crazy expensive. Manufacturing, government approvals, etc. This has been working since the 1930s!
I absolutely agree with Dan. My personal aircraft is an MU-2. If you firewall it you will overtorque it by 20-30% and if you retract flaps you’ll go from a500’/min climb to 600-1000’/min descent. The G200 I fly part time is the same. It has a very small wing with Krueger slats and flaps. At 35000# gross it will absolutely fall out of the sky. Good video.
An MU-2 isn't a light piston twin. It is also the subject of a SFAR for training, so it's literally the worst comparison you could have come up with. Fly an MU-2 as appropriate for an MU-2, and a Seneca as appropriate for a Seneca.
If I firewall my King Air it will produce 156% torque and it can do it for a few minutes and not require the engine to be changed. I’ll do it until it melts if it’s the difference between contacting terrain and avoiding it... which is quite possible in the mountainous terrain I fly in.
I am training for my PPL and I would like to ask a question about the flaps during a single engine failure on a multi-engine plane. Obviously jamming everything forward on the throttle quadrant can have adverse effects on the engines however bringing up the flaps seems pretty reasonable. I have been reading this ground school book and it states flaps tend to generate more drag than lift. If this is the case it doesn't make sense to me why one wouldn't pull the flaps up as they would just throw out unwanted drag. It does however make sense that the pilots want extra lift to help the second engine maintain altitude but to me flaps don't seem like the best means of doing that (although they are probably the only means of generating more lift).
Ty0503 - if you think about it, in an engine failure on takeoff situation, your flaps are already set (whether that’s down or up). If you’re taking off with flaps you’re doing so to give yourself more lift, like in a short field takeoff. This isn’t done with full flaps but with partial. The point at which the flaps generate a significant amount of drag is when they are at a higher degree of deployment. In a Cessna if you were taking off with flaps it wouldn’t be with more than 10 degrees so leaving them at 10 with a failed engine isn’t going to hurt you.
Richard Treatch - Wrong. If you know and understand the criteria for determining Vmc, flaps are to be RETRACTED. Also, per the drag-demo exercise, the flaps are a drag item and drag must be reduced.
Most people who fall asleep watching Tv - End up tortured in middle of REM w/ hours of hideous vacuum infomercial_ I wake of this video playing on Laptop, after what seemed for hours_ I'm on the set of 'Ice Pilots' _ being instructed _ hold that right Rudder... Obviously so excited after years of dreaming to Fly the DC-3, I'm barely five years old flying low & slow with joy. So so disappointed _ finally come too... It was only a dream, but a lovely one at that. Cheers
![20 MINUTES of TAKEOFFS and LANDINGS | Incheon Airport Plane Spotting [ICN/RKSI]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3dWnioeHqm8/mqdefault.jpg)
![20 MINUTES of TAKEOFFS and LANDINGS | Incheon Airport Plane Spotting [ICN/RKSI]](/img/tr.png)
Thanks all for the comments, I am respectful of all. A very large cross section of experience and knowledge is shown in the comments. The problem that I am trying to overcome is that there is a thing called MUSCLE MEMORY. It says that the REFLEX that you learned in early days during a time of stress, will be what your body will resort to again when faced with the same stress. The brain kind of goes into shock and your hand can get to a switch or knob before your brain or eyes ever knew about it! Teaching people to jam forward to the stops on all six levers and then put flaps up is a very strong early memorized trait that is difficult if not impossible to overcome. Most people come up through the ranks in small piston twins where this technique works because jamming all six levers forward doesn't hurt anything. Reaching for the flap handle during any low energy situation is always going to cause further degradation of lift, if not full stall. In the Colgan accident, the FO reached for the flap handle and moved it to the full upright position during the most critical time point in the stall. The she realized what she did and told the Captain, almost like she became aware of it after she had done it. She made the statement after the fact..."I put the flaps up."
The Captain had been trained to never lose a single foot of altitude during a stall, the FO had been trained to power up, clean up and hold altitude. The last words on the CVR were translated by the NTSB as "We're down" but what he actually said was "We're dead."
22:16:37.1 HOT-2 I put the flaps up.
22:16:40.2 CAM [sound of two clicks]
22:16:42.2 HOT-1 [sound of grunt] *ther bear.
22:16:45.8 HOT-2 should the gear up?
22:16:46.8 HOT-1 gear up oh #.
22:16:50.1 CAM [increase in ambient noise]
22:16:51.9 HOT-1 we're down.
22:16:51.9 CAM [sound of thump]
22:16:52.0 HOT-2 we're [sound of scream]
22:16:53.9 END OF TRANSCRIPT He knew after the flaps were suddenly retracted and the nose fell through 60 degrees on pitch that it was over. The problem? Muscle memory from early days kicked in for both of these pilots and their REACTIONS were guided by their early days of instruction. For multi engine training, there is NO NEED to push all six lever forward and then retract flaps! You had the power and flaps set via your departure briefing and know flap setting (Full power on most light twins) The answer and the proper training response from day one for all new multi engine students that I have used successfully for 12 years is : ENGINE FAILURE! GEAR UP! IDENTIFY VERIFY FEATHER BLUE LINE CHECKLIST. The scenario mentioned in comments regarding an engine failure on short final with energy and altitude is a completely different scenario and not time critical. I invite your comments. Respectfully....Dan
Thanks Dan. Another important point I felt the need to make when I read some of the comments under the video, is that it doesn't take a very high DA to maybe require some leaning before take off to set max power... and that would be a case where, even in the Seneca 1, that if you lose an engine, and then fire walled your carefully leaned mixture in the good engine, you could flood it and loose partial or complete power in that one too... Anyway - I am not a CFI - I should not get into the weeds making a comment like this - but these were the concerns I wanted to raise and question in this video, and I think it has successfully done that. Thanks to all that have been a part of the conversation.
EDIT: I have also retitled the video to make it clear we are trying to start a conversation about an alternate way of thinking.
This is an awesome airplane! I did not realize there was one so close to my home base in pinebluff ar. might need to take a quick trip to check it out .Dan seems like a lot of fun to fly with .Thanks for the videos Flightchops really enjoy riding along.
Couldn't agree more with Dan. All he was trying to say is that they teach you as if 100% of the time you're supposed to react the same way and that this should be part of your muscle memory. They should instead make it clear to the student that in this particular light-twin it's the correct procedure but it might be different on different aircraft. That way the student won't store it as muscle memory if that makes sense.
I really do not know what exactly the first officer was thinking. Having over 800 hours in the Dash 8 she should have known better. My point is when you are a pilot you should adapt to the equipment you are flying and know every bit of it to the best you can. You fly a Dash 8 like you should fly a Dash 8, you fly a B747 like you should fly a B747 and you fly a Cessna 150 like you should fly a Cessna 150.
Many times I believe there is a lack of classroom knowledge specially in the States (The knowledge required to become an airline pilot in Europe or Asia is 100% more). Pilots are many times taught do it this way, not that way, but rarely is the question 'why not this way' discussed. A light piston's flaps are inefficient and the only thing they give is drag. But a Dash 8 or any other large transport's flaps are very different. They create immense amount of lift and retracting them without gaining a proper speed can be catastrophic. If you are an airline pilot you should know it and act to it. You go back to training in the simulator every six months if you are flying for airlines. That is where you gain the muscle memory and change any memory that is required to change. If you cannot, something is wrong. Either you or your training.
I saw on Mayday that the captain selected an icing switch which activated the stick shaker at a higher airspeed. It was questioned as to whether the pilot knew what this switch did. Also, weren’t the ATR’s known to be unstable with certain flap configurations during icing? Was the plane in the Colgan incident initially in a stall or did the pilots stall the aircraft when they reacted to the stick shaker?
I'm a current MEI who teaches in the Baron mostly. The reason why we teach cramming everything forward in the light piston twins is because they are exactly that: light piston twins. Anyone who has ever flown one on one engine knows how anemic the climb rate can be. We cram everything forward and suck the gear and flaps up because we need every ounce of thrust we can manage and as little drag as possible in order to stay in the air. Most piston engines are designed to operate at maximum throttle continuously and if they're not then they can run at that setting long enough for you to control the situation and pull them back to their max continuous setting. He also mentioned that raising flaps in an engine out situation will kill you. Well... if you remain at or above blue line then raising flaps will not kill you. You have plenty of rudder authority to control the airplane single engine in any flap configuration.
To say that the procedure we use in light piston twins is wrong because of how larger piston twins fly is wrong in itself in my opinion. There's are many many things that change when you move up in size of airplane. In the jet engine failures are identified with engine gauges in addition to feet and we dont verify the correct engine by moving thrust levers. That dead engine should already have been verified before ever moving the thrust lever. So does that mean we should stop verifying dead engines with throttle in piston airplanes? No. It's a jet, it's a different airplane and requires different procedures just the same way that this is a DC3 and not a Seneca; it requires different procedures.
Just my two cents.
Flightx52 That’s a great writeup. I found the same thing as I progressed beyond trainer twins: anything heavier is going to involve simulator training or at least an in-airplane training course where you learn what the real procedure is for that type. Like many things from initial training, you leave behind the rote basics and pick up more in-depth skills.
I agree, currently training to be an MEI (did all of my training in a seminole) and it really shows in the drag demonstration we do. We will have full power in our operating engine, right on blue line and still be sinking if we have flaps in. Also we lose 50% of the thrust but up to 80-90% of the performance, so we need as little drag as possible if we want to have a positive Vyse.
Flightx52, If you have a light twin with four bangers, you'll need more than full throttle!
There is reason why larger and more complicated aircraft require type certificates.
Also working on finishing up my MEI. And I agree, conventional multiengine flight training is not wrong at all. Steve and Dan are applying the procedures for a light twin on a heavyweight. That in itself isn't right. Now, sure you can use if for a frame of reference, but in the edit it sure seems like Dan is railing against the conventional wisdom. I do respect his dictum, as I respect his experience. But conventional wisdom isn't wrong. This requires the addendum to the "Train like you fly, fly like you train." It's more like "Train like you fly this type, and fly like you trained to fly this type."
This dude is an amazing flight instructor. He always corrects with positive reinforcement, and lets you build confidence while honing your skill.
What a beautiful plane! That low pass was epic!
My Dad was a DC3 pilot during WWII pacific. Fun to see the old bird loved and flying!! Thank you.
It’s fun watching the lights come on for you. You’re flying with greater skill and confidence with every video in spite of the fact that you’re learning in a T-6 one day followed by a Maule then an ultralight, a Seneca, an L49 and a DC-3. It’s what you must do to produce interesting new content but it’s a broad aviation learning experience that the videos preserve for you so you can relive those lessons again and again.
Him scaring you was one of the best visuals for an emergency situation and how it can be handled I’ve seen. Great great example.
Great episode. You drove Ole Doug like a pro. That is one of the most important airframes in aviation history. It's great that you had the opportunity to actually fly one.
Training with Dan is kind of like drinking from a fire hose. Anybody fortunate enough to get a few hours of training with him should record every second. Then you can go back, unpack and digest all those life saving nuggets at a more leisurely pace.
When you're standing in front of the airplane looking up; the plane dwarfs you. It is humungous!
If you feel completely comfortable, you're insane!
You are in confident in your training, experience and in DAN!
Another great video Steve. Thank you for sharing and congrats on flying this very large aircraft!
I knew N143D when it was owned by Academy Airlines and nicknamed "Miss Alligator" from it's forced landing in the Everglades. I was taught by Aubrey Swazey and typed in October, 1993. I'm glad it's well-cared for and still flying. Thank you, Dan.
Thanks for sharing the experiences you get the pleasure of taking in.
I'm unable financially to get my ppl just a single engine rating but I live vicariously through your videos steve.
Thanks for keeping the dream alive man!!!
Keep making em cause you're doing great.
Cool experience. Just a word of advice coming from another CFI-ME ATP Pilot, in my opinion there are quite a few accidents in the history books from new pilots to very experienced pilots in both piston and jet aircraft who reacted too quickly during an engine failure and shut down or feathered the operating engine. I agree with him that people will inherently panic momentarily or be surprised when a true engine failure occurs. Following the “standard” procedure assures that you will have full power to the operating engine. Skipping that step and going straight to a securing phase eliminates the opportunity to catch a mixture too lean on a go around that would give you your power back for example. Also rushing to secure the engine on a engine failure during takeoff scenario opens the door to make a already tough scenario impossible if you happen to miss diagnose the engine that failed. Taking the time to run that procedure ensures you have a few seconds to take in your whole surroundings and understand the scenario you are in. Then after those moments have passed you can peruse a securing flow if you have determined that it is necessary. Just a few words of advice from one pilot to another. Enjoyed the video, wish I had that opportunity. Blue skies!
Also, this is a general procedure and the jet I fly doesn’t follow the “standard” procedure also but it was similar to a lot of the midsize piston and turboprops that I have experienced. The process for what you are learning is a good process. Always learn the airplane you are flying. Good day.
Great video! I really enjoyed the chest rig GoPro angle that allowed the rudder pedals to be seen!
Considering the difficulty of flying the plane back in WW2, props to the pilots for keeping calm while flying one of the most complicated machines of the time, all while literally being shot at. I've heard some incredible feats that pilots have done, like some insane dogfighting stories.
Second only to the Spitfire - one of the most beautiful aircraft ever to grace the skies... I love the DC-3 :)
Yep, gotta fly the thing for a bit to get used to the way she feels as she flys. You fly so many different types the trick is knowing that each one is different so as you get familiar with each one, the training for each one will stick with you better. You will understand better. What a great adventure you’re on right now. Have fun!
It looks like you had quite the adventure.
I have been teaching multi engine for over a decade. Your conversation is a very valid one. But you are talking about different things. You cannot compare a DC3 or a Jet, King air, Etc to a light twin. It is easy to back seat quarter back but you are not reading what that checklist says. Says forward, some say max power etc. You use what is required!
A great example in a Seneca 1 is an engine failure in a missed approach, you see the runway go for it plane pulls out on you dear or bears on the runway a kids playing on the runway doesn't matter they have all happened your props, will be full, mixture rich, gear down, flaps full, and guess what you push the throttles up for a missed approach and bam. Only option get everything full power and go, if you don't feather the prop, get the gear and flaps up, you will be screwed, self induced lowered chance of survival. I'm sorry the checklist is there for a reason. Any aircraft you fly will be set for take off that is what you bring up, you don't touch anything but identify verify and feather. They are teaching you to increase everything forward because you loose 50% of your horsepower but about 80% of your performance. If you pitch up and try to maintain altitude the plane will loose airspeed over time and will eventually stall.
Say in cruse you are economy cruise 55 % power both engines, you don't touch anything your engine quits guess what you now have 28 percent power.... windmilling propeller, say we were doing multi training and it really quit. We are trying to maintain altitude not lose speed we had the gear and flaps down doing stalls... Every item on that checklist will be very important.. Fly the plane, blue line, mixtures forward- may not firewall it at 7 or 8000 feet say in the mountains, propellers need to go forward to get maximum rpm for the most horsepower and throttle up. Gear up, Flaps up, those are checks, to make sure they are up. not necessarily to retract them. But in a good on Seneca 1 if we crap a motor in a go around you have to get them up. There is a HUGE difference between flaps down and up, especially at altitude, it doesn't say slam the flaps up it say retract, which will happen slowly. Your question is good, but it is very much airplane and very much situation dependent. Normal take pretty much every airplane is the same
This really happens, I was in a 421 had a bad oil leak diverted into land. It has big geared engines so you have to baby and take care of them.
I was inbound flew the approach came out at 800 feet at an uncontrolled airport. at about 300 feet a Mooney that was in the runup area made a call he was taking off I said on final single engine. He didn't reply took the runway. I initiated a real single engine go around INTO IMC the clouds
Set MP up Pushed the propeller lever up leveled off, got the gear up, retracted flaps, and side stepped the runway and got it to go around and flew by the Mooney. It felt like an eternity to get it to start climbing, But I bet you if i left the flaps out it would not have climbed. I only had approach flaps in. I had probably about 3000 hours of multi time when that happened. By the way the Mooney turned down his number 1 radio when he was talking to his phone before he took off because someone was making radio calls and he never turned it back up until after i went wizzing by. So my 250 FPM climb into imc will full power was all I got with a feathered propeller, gear and flaps up and all shes got. 15 min later I landed. So I take the checklist as being correct and the memory response kept me alive.
I read the Colgan remark below doesn't apply the were not single engine they pulled back in a stall, does not apply to single engine and memory response. The MU2 response is not valid because that is not what the memory items and procedure is for it in that plane.
Great video good discussion. Keep flying tail wheel it is an art.
Very nice sir. The crosswind God must hate you. Seems like every time you get to fly something new it blows hard 90 degrees from the runway. Loved seeing the control wheel hard left and then hear you say that's all the rudder we got. As for the proper engine out procedure, you have to know the airplane your flying that day. What works in one doesn't mean it will work in all. Keep up the good work.
Fantastic VLOG and who doesn't love the DC-3!
Enjoyed this one very much DC3 one of my favorite airplanes.
I was 18 when I flew the 3, first landing was a 3pt. Nobody told me you didn't do that. LOL Love the old lady, she taught me a lot. Love the channel.
Love the DC-3! At this time I have started my tailwheel and have 2 3 pointers in my book. Both of them happen to be squeakers, so I may be just a bit proud of that. I'm sure the wheel landings will be humbling.
The mantra is Control Power Drag Identify Verify Feather and _THAT_ is what is industry standard. How you go about doing it is specific to the aircraft and the situation. Full forward depends on the aircraft. I did my multi engine training on a Piper Turbo Seminole. Like the DC-3, it will overboost if you firewall the throttle... so it’s max Power- _NOT_ full forward. Also.. it depends on the phase of flight. On an ILS or visual final approach, the last thing you want to do is destabilize the approach by adding full power to the good engine. Read, understand, and apply the POH/AFM engine out procedures for your specific aircraft. One like a Champion Lancer requires you shut down the other engine since there is no way to feather. One like the 337 requires identification by gauges and you’re supposed to leave the gear down (drag in this case is increased by retracting it-especially if your failed engine is the one with the hydraulic pump). One like the King Air feathers it automatically and you retract flaps through blue line. Also.. most commuter and transport category aircraft have engine out climb segments with specific speeds (like V1) to target and specific flap retraction schedules. Don’t apply that knowledge to a light trainer..
In other words know your aircraft and what your engines nead
Damn! I've got a big smile on my face now, and I wasn't even there :). Oh, and that last takeoff looked a lot better than the first one, it's obvious that you're picking up on your mistakes, and not repeating them. Another great video.
One of my all time favourite planes! Great job!
Well we’ve been thought the same way Dan mentions. We were thought that every plane is different and that for example a turbo-charged Seneca will probably get you over the red line, that is overtorque on your only working engine during an enigine failure if you simply push everything up. I think you have plenty of time to fly the aircraft first and then push slowly everything up watching those engine gauges and being aware while doing so as not to overtorque the engine, instead of rushing.
Completely agree with Dan! Thank you for a great video Steve! (as always ;) )
On the edge of my seat for this one. Great episode (as always)!
This looks like it was a ton of fun! Dan is always a treat in your videos. One of my favorite instructors to see.
Got to pass right next to Oshkosh the other day, and it is gorgeous. Is it weird that I recognized landmarks like the railroad from practically studying these videos? Haha. Anyways, thanks for the videos! Always continue to inspire young aviators.
Steve, nice job in the C-47. You done good!
I agree totally with Dan.
Love round engines...and he's so right about single engine procedure s on t/off.
When you have to wrench on them; one does becoming posesive on flight procedures, pulling prop through on preflight etc.not hard to bend a rod if not carful etc.well done
Dude that was awesome, congrats on taming that beast!
great stuff.....it was SO intense for me I had to take a break from the film....PHEW.....Immersive.
You are my inspiration in flying a DC-3. Thank you!
Interesting timing, coming after the CV-340 crash in South Africa a few days ago from an apparent engine failure. Both pilots were Qantas A380 pilots.
Cool intro! Really hoping to get to meet you guys at Oshkosh this year!
One of my most favorite episodes thus far. Not only did I learn few things, but I was entertained from start to finish. Great job FlightChops!
Btw, Dan is the man without a doubt!
Love the DC-3 its one of my favorites.Thanks for sharing
Maintain take-off thrust on engine failure on take-off, yes. With Seminole/Senica that IS full throttle and pitch. In that sense it is the same, but the checklist should be something like "check power" rather than the light-twin specific "full throttle & pitch". That way, if you have reduced to climb power, and then suffer your engine failure you are reminding yourself that you have a bit more performance avialable if you need it. In a jet airliner, if you are performing a flex (reduced thrust for engine economy) take off there is the option of increasing to rated thrust (although you can leave the thrust setting at flex, as you have calculated that is sufficient for single engine performance as well).
I live just up the road from this airport and see this plane parked outside all the time. Wish i would of known you were in town would of came out and met ya! Great video FlightChops!!
Irony - I taught Mark to play guitar in 1990 or so and now he has a successful band in the area - hey Mark thanks for the note, Im going to come see you guys play pretty soon! Dan
Had to watch this one twice. Your such an inspiration! Hope to see you again at OSH.
Was really looking forward to this one!
Awesome aircraft, and to believe that you're just an hour and a half away from where i live. Enjoy yourselves! I am enjoying the footage.
Beautiful plane. They used to fly DC-3s out of Blackpool to the Isle of Mann here in the UK back in the 80ies. Never got tired of watching and hearing them.Thanks for sharing this. btw Interesting to hear 'the full monty' being used in NA I thought it was just Northern English :)
Love the DC3! Hope you get loads more time in it! There was a moment there where Brock's face looked a little, umm, sweaty, how did he fare in the back? Great content as always.
Excellent job Steve, very smooth😎
I am amazed at the attention needed to fly a dc3! It involves higher intelligence than average! World War 2, found above average to train and to fly not only a dc3, but many more of the 4 engine aircraft, b17 etc. I have always wanted to fly like a bird above the earth! I admire those you do and have. DC3 is my favorite aircraft.
I agree, I've done some extremely basic sim training, but I understand the point made, jamming everything forward I can't imagine working, even from an engineering perspective. Definitely needs looking at. Maybe it needs to be unprogrammed, so verify, gear up then decide as required. Maybe I don't know. But definitely worth thinking about.
Awesome chops! You guys have great chemistry. I wish my instructor (way back when) was as cool as Dan. His "Canadian" comments were worth a chuckle.
Your video could not have had better timing with regards to the Convair 340 accident at Wonderboom in Pretoria, South Africa on July 10. Engine fire on take-off, 80% of a circuit flown at only 300ft height and could not turn for finals off of base before crashing - was flown by experienced airline pilots. Everyone is speculating online about cause and pilot action possibilities and I think this video adds great value to that conversation.
Had a smile throughout the entire video... Very inspiring and nicely done Steve... Cheers!
I guess you learn the appropriate technique for the type or category of aircraft you are training on, Irrespective of your future flying aspirations or past flying experience. I guess the nomenclature used by flight schools and the authorities can be a bit misleading, as you would expect after taking a Multi Engine rating Course to be qualified to fly Multi-engine aircraft in general, yet in reality you get yourself a ticket to fly a light piston twin and a license to learn how to fly other more complex multi's with their respective procedures.
Thanks for another awesome video !
Not sure why I like coming back to these older videos. For some reason, watching these senior aircraft fly, especially ones like the DC3 that still WORK for a living, it just makes me happy in some way. Might be an offshoot of advancing age past the halfway point. 🤨
In terms of “engine-out” procedures, it would seem that your radial engine procedures would be a better idea for basically ALL aircraft. In the boring truck world, it’s always better to drive as if you’re in a finicky truck that doesn’t let you get away with sloppy driving, that way you don’t end up doing something that it may not let you get away with. A particular aircraft may put up with fire walling everything, but why increase possible risk?
That was terrific! I was sweating with excitement.
Always a magnificent aircraft- DC3 legendary
I can understand both sides of the argument, I mean in something big like the DC-3 you have the luxury of an abundance of power, there's no point slamming everything forward and taking the risk of loosing the good engine too if you have enough power on one engine with the power setting your at. On top of this pulling the flaps up when your in an aircraft so heavy isn't such a great plan, you may be able to fly flaps up, but your likely already trimmed to fly in you current flap position, why increase the work load by forcing yourself to adapt.
That being said, I also understand why it's taught the way it is, in a smaller, relatively underpowered aircraft you don't have that same abundance of power, so when you loose half your available power you need to make the most of the power you have left, hence pushing everything forward to ensure you are getting everything the engine has to give. Flaps wise a smaller aircraft is much lighter and the loss of lift is not as critical, however the reduction in drag by bringing the flaps up is going to be a big help.
Honestly, I think what it comes down to is know your aeroplane, know how it preforms on one engine and know how it's gonna fly at various speeds with various stages of flap. I don't think the issue is with what you're trained to do on the Seneca, that may be right for the Seneca, the issue is when you attempt to transfer that to other aeroplanes, every aeroplane is different, handles differently , and hence you need to adapt your procedures to the aircraft your flying, rather than take a one size fits all approach. That's just my 2 cents on the matter.
Streaky100001 I agree. His whole point was that the light twin trainers now are no longer Model 18 Beeches and Lockheed Model 12’s. But that’s the way things were when they and the DC-3 were new. Today’s training is good for today’s air planes but you must adapt to new procedures when you transition into a new plane. The thing that keeps you Alive in an Apache will be of little help in a DC-3 and have no relevance whatsoever in a pressurized Skymaster.
In many planes lift to drag ratio actually tends to be better with some flaps. The only reason they have the full up setting at all is to allow reduce total drag and increase cruise speed when using engines above the bare minimum power and lift is in excess. I had the chance to study a bunch of wind tunnel data back in college, a ton of common knowledge is actually quite inaccurate.
I think his point makes a lot of sense when it comes to power settings. If you lose power on takeoff your takeoff power has already been set. On a light twin that is firewall power, on older radials or turboprops it isn't, but either way your power is already set so it would make sense to skip that training step that puts the firewall power thing in to your muscle memory and pay attention to reducing drag first?
I've been waiting for this for so long :p Finally!
Dan has been my hero since I read how he provides instruction in the DC3. It was great to see him teaching in the airplane.
As to the procedure of putting the engine controls full-forward, that's airplane type dependent. But on the propellers specifically, I think it's reasonably safe to put the controls full-forward in all types I'm aware of... The airplanes I've flown with constant speed props have governors. If the governor is properly adjusted (done by the mechanic) it allows the engine (and prop) RPM to accelerate right to the red line, which as others have commented, is allowed (for at least five minutes at a time). If you ever find that setting the propeller control full-forward causes the RPM to go over red line (likely discovered on the initial takeoff roll) then the airplane should be put in for maintenance.
That said, in some cases, advancing the prop control too fast might allow the RPM to exceed red line briefly, which is why the control should be moved smoothly. On this point, my experience is that RPM is more likely to go over red line with rapid increases in throttle setting (rather than prop control) because of limitations in how rapidly the blade angle (pitch) of the propeller can be changed by the governor. The propeller blade angle not adjusting as relatively quickly as the engine torque rises (caused by rapid throttle movement) allows the RPM to increase in an uncontrolled way. This can be more likely with a cold engine when the oil/grease viscosity slows the action of the mechanism. Smooth throttle advancement keeps that from happening.
Great job! Wind in a new airplane is always a challenge.
Those crosswind landings were sweet.
At the school and charter company I work for where we fly Britten Norman Islanders for charter and Beech duchess for training and we don't teach to jam the controls forward and its not in the company SOP's when conducting charter ops either, we train to step the power up to the next level. For example if we're are at climb power we'll step upto full forward, if we're at cruise power we'll step upto climb power, descent power we'll step upto cruise etc. And as far as flaps go we'll definitley take them up during take off as there just isnt the performance, in the cruise they should already be up and on an approach to landing we will quickly assess performance and decide if flaps need to be raised or not.
It makes sense that all aircraft are flown differently and thats why it is impotant to familliarise yourself with an individual aircraft and its procedures before flying it. However the INTENT of the multi training philosophy is to burn into a students mind that if an engine fails they imediatley check Mixture, Pitch, Power, Flap, Gear and make sure those 5 items are set where they need to be in that particular aircraft for that particular stage of flight.
Anyway, really good topic of discussion that would be good over a beer!
ggroombr same here. i was taught "one up" as in the next highest power setting from where you are.
Great video, loved the first DC3 one as well! Regarding the checklists, although I’m not rated so take it for what it is, I would tend to agree with the other comments. Twin piston training aircraft should probably be considered a different breed, hence different checklist because their single engine performance is known to be barely enough to keep flying. They are designed to be cheap to operate and small so in an emergency it becomes VITAL to get every last inch of power as quickly as possible. The bigger aircraft will of course have much more power in reserve and of course different procedures. I believe the DA42 are the real new generation where you might treat them more like the jets you might fly later. Auto feathering and FADEC as well as modern aerodynamics and materials change everything. Sorry for the long post :)
It all depends on the aircraft you are flying! Every airplane is different and therefore the procedures will be different in most cases. When dealing with engine failures we need to be thinking about the term "Max Power". Max power is a term used in aircraft where if you were to go full forward on the throttles you could potentially damage the engine. Different aircraft have different "Max Power" settings. A turboprop may have a engine torque limit and prop setting that you set to achieve the "max power" settings. A piston aircraft although normally full forward on everything is very common, certain aircraft will have a specific manifold pressure and prop setting like the DC-3. I believe this theory is lost when conducting flight training on a multi-engine aircraft as it is much easier to remember to mash everything forward than it is to remember a specific power setting or try to be precise when it comes down to setting "Max Power". Finally always remember to slowly and smoothly advance the mixtures / props / throttles to max settings as if done too abruptly you could actually damage the engine or have a real engine failure! With a piston keep it smooth!
Cheers
LOL! DC-3 Run-up checklist. 1.) Check for piper cubs behind you!! Took a fraction of a second before I caught that, then remembered your first DC-3 driving at the big fly in. They waved you off the taxiway out of line of departing aircraft for run-up and gave ya'll the OK, then let a cub taxi right behind you and it practically got ground looped in the prop wash. Great humor, good awareness! Regarding the engine out, I rated learning in a Twin Comanche which has very close numbers. almost everything regarding critical numbers is between 90-112 mph (Yes, it's so old its' POH and airspeed is in mph) and Vyse (Blueline - Best single engine rate of climb) at 105 and Vmca (Single engine minimum control speed) is 90 mph, so energy management is critical. This plane, originally anyway, has standard engines, both turning clockwise, and therefore a true critical engine aircraft. Counterrotating props remove the critical engine scenario, but still low & slow is doubly dangerous in this twin, even below Single Engine service ceiling at 5,800 feet ( above which you can't climb on single engine, but will slowly lose altitude until SESC, [excluding density altitude concerns]). The training for mixture, props & throttle full forward is good and is understandable to provide ONE simple tool for best outcome while first learning, and in passing the Practical especially in the "lowlands", but mixture should have been set for best power, and at higher altitudes, you're actually hurting performance to push forward past best power to full rich. Simply put, KNOW your aircraft, its' performance envelope, and especially the environment you'll be flying it in. Regards.
I would say you should know your check lists and understand why its written that way. They're written to help with the most common situations. Make your own adjustments to it based on your situation. It's important to understand the airplanes you fly.
Hey Steve, That was great, interesting point about multi-engine training,just wondering then if you took the point back to your multi instructor and what were his thoughts on this ? I'm only a single engine guy at present so would be interested to understand this more , thanks again :)
I whole-hardheartedly agree to "train like you fly and fly like you train" but I can also see why the current standards exist. Training new students to firewall everything helps squeeze every ounce of power out of the light twin in a timely manner. On the other hand, every old habit to train out just adds to the type-certification or additional training when the pilot eventually steps up to more powerful aircraft. If the problem only manifests itself when the pilot steps up to turboprops or powerful piston twins, I see no reason to change it because not every pilot will leave light twins, though many will. Every new airplane has it's own unique challenges but un-learning old habits can be an additional factor of stress. This isn't going to be settled in the RUclips comments section, but I say that new pilots training in light twins should firewall everything and clean up as quickly as possible to keep the plane away from the ground.
You are in Good hands, Dan has been working on this correction for years, Good Show...!!
Wow! That looked intense. That gear handle has Dan almost head-butting the throttle quadrant during retraction eh?
Wow, wow, wow. Loved this video and what a cool aircraft and instructor. Going to have to get me some DC3 time, and that'll be a big step up from my RV10!
Keep the great content coming Steve - and more like this please!
What an amazing instructor! You are very lucky!
Damn man you had to use full throw on control surfaces. Right at the limits of crosswind on first trip...jeesh
Yeah, it was a tough day ;P
Isn't trimming additionally surfaces on this plane?
Man that was busy. Great video.
I got my ATP and type in it (over 3,000 hrs). A great machine.
I love flightchops but I want this trainer to teach me everything
For someone that’s a CFI I’m confused as to why he keeps saying, “any traffic at Salem Springs?” It’s unprofessional and not suppose to be done.
Everything the DC-3 instructor did was unprofessional.
Like in 2009 when i tried to run over cops in this DC-3?
Almost 2 years later and 3:32 still makes me laugh
Are there friction locks on the engine control levers? (DC-3 question)
Beautiful airplane 👍 Good job Chops!
I'd be curious to learn more about whether adjusting the flaps with engine failure in a large aircraft is ever an option . Given that that the Captain on BA flight 38, which lost all power on final at Heathrow, raised the flaps from 30 to 25 extending the glide approx 50m, the no-flap-raising must surely not be a hard and fast rule?
Transport category jets can climb at any phase during an engine failure. We don’t retract flaps until reaching the F bug anyway. Just as an engine failure in a Seneca is different than a DC3, an engine failure is completely different in a jet. Nothing needs to be done quickly in a jet except regaining directional control.
How better can it come??
One of the coolest pilot tuber, with (definitely) the most amazing/competent/qualified CFII. Happy landings to you both.
Amazing video... again! Keep it up!
I'm in central Texas and we just lost our C-47 out of Burnet (The Bluebonnet Belle). I'm curious if you've had time to read over the initial report and have any insight based off of your C-47/DC-3 time.
Dan Gryder (the instructor pilot from this video) offered some great insights on his Facebook page - he was the check pilot for the crew that crashed.
FlightChops thanks.
The whole point to the don't touch power argument is that on takeoff you are already at max power. Remember these drills aren't for in the climb where you have More time and max continuous power set. On or just After the take off you will be at take off power which should usually in 99% of situations be at the engines max rated power anything more can damage anything. His point being if its already set at max as it should be why touch it then if you do trasition to something like a radial or pt6 engine without fadecs you'll naturally fall back on your training and go full power in a emergency situation causing engine damage and failure. So to summerise in a light twin takeoff power is already set so don't need to touch power, in anything else redline power is set so touching power will cook the engine. As for the flap argument yea thats definitely on a. Type by type and weight basis.
Thanks, great flight. I know that was fun.
On the B737NG we don't touch the throttles, even in in assumed plus derated config :-)
Michael Zaite that is correct
V1 cuts on in a jet are so much easier than what he is teaching. I have a type in the 170/190 and this was stressing me out.
I haven't flown prop multi engine, but i do fly jet multi engine. Regarding the theological crisis of an engine failure and firewalling everything, I'm curious as to the manufacturer's definition of "forward" vs potentially "full forward". Again, I'm not familiar with your aircraft, but seems to me it could be a poorly worded checklist item calling for verifying that throttle, mixture, and prop levers are in a general setting above cruise but below firewall to compensate for the loss of power. "Forward" just seems to me a very generic term for "more thrust" and not terribly specific to the actual position of the levers.
No, light normally-aspirated (not turbocharged) piston twins do specify FULL FORWARD. It's not a generic term, it's specific - for those airplanes. For other airplanes where full forward is *not* appropriate (e.g. a Seneca II with fixed wastegates) the procedures are different.
If he's military, it's pretty much guaranteed that's what he did. However, since he doesn't have any relevant experience, he shouldn't have commented with an uninformed opinion.
Chicha 17 - I knew this one would generate some potentially heated discussion, but let’s please keep it civil.
Thanks fellas. Basically my curiosity boils down to "forward" vs "firewall"
In regards to the procedure: fly the plane you are in, not the one you want to fly. In a light twin, cleaning up the airplane in an engine out situation is top priority because of the certification (Part 23). A DC3 or a King Air have enough horsepower to literally power out of a situation like that. Your standard Piper Seminole does not.
At the end he says Douglas DC3, would that be the same Mr Douglas that I've read about in skydiving books?
Outstanding!
On larger jet aircraft the rudder is designed to keep the aircraft straight with full thrust. But if a takeoff has been excecuted with reduced thrust (often done to save engine life), in principle, there is no need to increase thrust to maximum take off thrust. As an extra safety measure though, most companies will require you to apply full takeoff thrust anyway. Retracting the flaps early is a giant nono!! The aircraft I teach on now (I'm a SFI on the Bombardier challenger 300), has so much thrust, that, in case of an engine failure, you can climb with takeoff thrust and flaps in the take off position (10 or 20), at V2, untill 1500ft AAL! In this aircraft there is no real level accelleration segment. A DC3 would be a totaly different story!
Even though the servicing must be impeccable on this machine, it would be tough to think that we expect something older than ourselves to perform flawlessly 100% of the time.Although It must be normal in every airplane to run in your mind an exercise in evaluation and procedure every time all the time. I cant help but think there would be an elevated sense of it in this airplane.
TheCanadianBubba, I would rather fly in that old bird than a brand new one! She's broke in just right!
It might be interesting to know how many updates the plane would have. Especially things of an electronic nature, like monitoring or alarm systems. Would be hard to think that electronics have not made their way into Ignition or charging systems as well. Not a lot of faith in that from where I stand.
TheCanadianBubba, That old school stuff works! To put in electronic ignition and fuel injection would be crazy expensive. Manufacturing, government approvals, etc. This has been working since the 1930s!
I absolutely agree with Dan. My personal aircraft is an MU-2. If you firewall it you will overtorque it by 20-30% and if you retract flaps you’ll go from a500’/min climb to 600-1000’/min descent. The G200 I fly part time is the same. It has a very small wing with Krueger slats and flaps. At 35000# gross it will absolutely fall out of the sky. Good video.
An MU-2 isn't a light piston twin. It is also the subject of a SFAR for training, so it's literally the worst comparison you could have come up with. Fly an MU-2 as appropriate for an MU-2, and a Seneca as appropriate for a Seneca.
If I firewall my King Air it will produce 156% torque and it can do it for a few minutes and not require the engine to be changed. I’ll do it until it melts if it’s the difference between contacting terrain and avoiding it... which is quite possible in the mountainous terrain I fly in.
Flying a plane is always a mental and physical work out
Is the DC3 certified for single pilot ops?
I am training for my PPL and I would like to ask a question about the flaps during a single engine failure on a multi-engine plane. Obviously jamming everything forward on the throttle quadrant can have adverse effects on the engines however bringing up the flaps seems pretty reasonable. I have been reading this ground school book and it states flaps tend to generate more drag than lift. If this is the case it doesn't make sense to me why one wouldn't pull the flaps up as they would just throw out unwanted drag. It does however make sense that the pilots want extra lift to help the second engine maintain altitude but to me flaps don't seem like the best means of doing that (although they are probably the only means of generating more lift).
Ty0503 - if you think about it, in an engine failure on takeoff situation, your flaps are already set (whether that’s down or up). If you’re taking off with flaps you’re doing so to give yourself more lift, like in a short field takeoff. This isn’t done with full flaps but with partial. The point at which the flaps generate a significant amount of drag is when they are at a higher degree of deployment. In a Cessna if you were taking off with flaps it wouldn’t be with more than 10 degrees so leaving them at 10 with a failed engine isn’t going to hurt you.
Makes sense. The short field takeoff example made it click; nice explanation!
Thanks! I was trying to come up with an example that would be relatable across the board. How much longer until you’re ready for your check ride?
Couple weeks hopefully!!
Richard Treatch - Wrong. If you know and understand the criteria for determining Vmc, flaps are to be RETRACTED. Also, per the drag-demo exercise, the flaps are a drag item and drag must be reduced.
Excellent CFI - and yet even still this video had me stressed! Cant imagine!
Outstanding video and I agree with bad procedure on "jam forward" M. P. T..bad on a good engine to say the least.
Excellent teaching techniques.
My favorite flying machine.
Most people who fall asleep watching Tv -
End up tortured in middle of REM w/ hours of hideous vacuum infomercial_
I wake of this video playing on Laptop, after what seemed for hours_
I'm on the set of 'Ice Pilots' _ being instructed _ hold that right Rudder...
Obviously so excited after years of dreaming to Fly the DC-3,
I'm barely five years old flying low & slow with joy.
So so disappointed _ finally come too... It was only a dream, but a lovely one at that.
Cheers
Love it!
Incredible skills!