Does the hydration of your dough affect OPEN CRUMB? | Foodgeek Baking
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- Опубликовано: 11 июл 2024
- Today I am testing the hypothesis that hydration affects open crumb in sourdough bread. Will we get larger holes from higher hydration. Do you even like open crumb?
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#experimenttime #opencrumb #sourdoughbread
00:00 Teaser
00:09 Intro
00:18 Explanation
01:56 Mixing
03:26 Stretch & fold
07:57 Shaping
10:32 Baking
11:44 Comparing crust
12:09 Comparing crumb
14:19 Conclusion 
Хобби
"This is a very common belief" Uh oh. Preparing to have my mind blown.
Hi there foodgeek, the same method with 4 different flours would be a nice one, from low/bad gluten flour from supermark going up in quality to your favorite flour. And thank you for your content, it is always very interesting and your breads always look amazing !
Would love to see comparison of different strength flours, maybe 11% protein versus 12 vs 13 vs 14
ruclips.net/video/s7wfrwhTjO8/видео.html
It’s been 2 years since you recommended this and still no video. Literally the best comparison request ever.
@@MacroTh3oryhe's done a video on this. In short, the answer is no. A low protein flour can achieve a more open crumb with higher hydration. Check his two videos on baking with cake flour and the one previous to that.
@@candorsspot2775 thanks, I’ll check them out.
As always I'm very impressed with your efforts to test everything and distinguish the MOST important factors from the BS.
Fermentation & gluten development are the interesting testing for me too.
Great chanel !
This man does gods work, i tell you.
Very enlightening video. Thanks for shedding light on this. So helpful!
Your shaping technique is a wonder!! Thanks for these great videos!
very very nice video; well explained and with all the steps one would want to see. thank you!!
It would be amazing to see a flour experiment!! Nice work man, your videos made me improve my sourdough game a lot!
Love your channel
I have just subscribed to your channel as your experiments are always very good.
Do the flour experiment
Great video Sune! Thanks for sharing this. An idea for an experiment would be the effect of different final shaping techniques.
I love your videos, and always look forward to them. You have definitely had a positive influence on my sourdough baking :) I'd like to see an experiment with how gluten percentage affects the bread.
Beautiful as always
I would like you to make a flour experiment! I was down on my sourdoug game for some weeks(using alot of Demeter flour), a friend said, try using your normal starter and the cheap 11.2 % protein industrial sifted wheat flour from my Norweigian supermarked, I tried and boy I made some fluffy tasty breads with super crust and an oven spring I have not seen for years!! Great content!! Greets from a Dane in Norway.
I noticed, at least from these pictures, that all of your loaves had their biggest holes on one side of the loaf. I suspect that final shaping technique is a factor. I would like to see more experiments in gluten development, as that's my current area of struggle.
You never fail to teach or instill thought. Bravo!
Thank you
Ur magic hands can tame all kinds of dough, every bread you made is perfect since I started to watch last March.
Thanks for this video. I'm one who sometimes struggle with knowing when fermentation is ready and the Gluten development, I would like to see your experiments with them 😊
70% did it for me. Thanks for doing this, I was thinking about hydration today and no experimentation is needed!.
It’s funny…something I found so difficult at the beginning, is now easy and rather hard to mess up…thanks for the experiments and the great music😊
Excellent work as always -- would love to see a fermentation side-by-side comparison
My slightly less experienced opinion. The openness is a result of how the dough is handled, more than ingredients or other processes. Conventional kneading breaks up developing bubbles, resulting in smaller average hole size in the finished product. Stretch and fold does not break up the early forming bubbles as much resulting in larger holes, and coiling is even less destructive. These techniques are often used in progressively higher hydration doughs but it is the technique more than the hydration that effects the longevity of early bubble formation and their development into larger bubbles or more open crumb.
I agree that more stretch & folds produce a tighter and softer crumb. I find that with my chosen ingredients, hydration, & environment, 7 stretch & folds spaced 10 minutes apart produce a crumb that holds melted butter while in the toaster oven. Like wild yeast spores, our preferences (and those of our hungry friends) differ.
Living in Canada I feel blessed with the strong flour that is so readily available.
Very nice, I commend your efforts to educate us ❤
Thank you ❤️
SUNE! Hold nu op hvor er jeg glad for at have fundet din kanal efter jeg er blevet så fascineret af surdejsbagning. Du beskriver ned til mindste detalje som er rigtig brugbart for os nørder, og det har jeg ledet efter længe.
Af hjertet tak for dine gode videoer, lad dem bare strømme.
Tusind tak 😁 Jeg er glad for at det kan bruges 😁
Hi Sune. I would love to see an experiment about the sour dough fermentation and its efect on the final product. Nice channel
Awesome video. I'd love to see a fermentation video in detail. Not just time and how long it takes at a certain temperature, but also how the dough feels. Sticky?? Smell? How to tell fermentation is close to spot on. Thank you, keep it up. Side note, excellent Korean chicken. Did it last week 🤤🤤🤤🤤
Definitely would like to see the experiment of various levels of gluten development as it relates to crumb size.
Indeed
Thanks for this great video. I prefer the 70% result. The shape is rounded nicely and it is open enough to put butter or mermelade. I don't understand why RUclipsrs keep attempting for a great open crumb.... probably because visually the bread looks very nice, but it is not comfortable to eat. Hey @Foodgeek, please make a video discussing what is the purpose of an open crumb :)
Thank you Sune. I've been making sourdough bread for approximately 1 1/2 years now. I have been overproofing my bread dough for approximately 1 1/2 years now. I am the king of overproof bar none . If you have any questions about over proofing sourdough I'll most likely be busy over proofing one kind of dough or another. But I will make time for you . Thank you . I might want to look into hydration too. maybe a little lower this time. You're a food geek so I don't have to be. we are all geeks when it comes to sourdough. I've seen and made some crazy stuff. nice.
I would challenge you for the spot of overproofing king!
😜
One of my best anecdotes: My kids once came downstairs for breakfast. No adults were up. They poured themselves a bowl of cereal right next to 2kg tubs of proofing sourdough. As he poured it the pressurized lid of the restaurant-grade tub exploded and popped off and made him spill milk everywhere and he fell down and yelled. We heard it upstairs in bed. He was laughing by the time I got to the kitchen. It's a story he loves telling and laughing about.
@@bryanrood6060 Hey. Have you settled on a good time for:
First proof?
Second proof (fridge)?
@@WantonMyth hi.
Yes, I've experimented with both times. If I don't do an overnight ferment, I can usually get a max 25-45min first proof, and a max 45min 2md proof. I'm usually shaping for both. During the first, it's a wet shaping and then covering and for the 2nd using rice flour. The 2nd would be called my final shaping and I stretch the dough as far as the gluten allows.
That's a great story. Than you.
Lovely mate beautiful loafs.
Afaik it mostly increases shelf life and, to a degree, the texture of the crumb. Most of all I would like to see how different handling, technique and shaping can produce different, more or less open crumb.
Low hydration or high hydration lead to longer shelf life?
@@perfidiousalbion9975 higher, it takes longer to dry out and get stale. But it may get moldy first, so...
@@BeholdTheFlesh It's the starch retrogradation that makes the bread go stale, and very quickly. In bakeries we use enzymes to retard this process.
I've watched lots of your sourdough video. I love the experimentations that you do--they answer basic, and important questions. I've been making sourdough bread for a year now, and although I feel like I've learned a lot, and improved my skills and senses, I have still struggled with getting a more open crumb. My breads are wonderful sandwich breads, but I yearn for a more open crumb even though that's less practical when putting topping on for sandwiches. You said something in this video that caught my attention though, and signals changes for my next loaf...lowering the amount of wheat flour. You mention that results in a tighter crumb which is what I'm getting, but not what I want. So my next loaf will have very little wheat flour in it and we'll see how it goes!
My takeaway from that series of experiments is that the flour you use is the most important variable :)
My recipe based on the results of the experiments: ruclips.net/video/_PvX511pDTg/видео.html
Nice work! Love the comparison! Would you say higher hydration may play a bigger role in forming the blisters than in having the open crumb?
It looks to me like the crumb DOES get more open with more hydration in this experiment, except for the 80% for some reason. I'd love to see future experiments with different levels of fermentation and with different levels of gluten development. I think most people already know how the flour plays the major role.
Sune, awesome loaves! One of the things I like about your loaves is the size. Just right for us, unlike some of the really large recipes out there.
All the doughs look good, but the consistency of the 85% is the one I like to work with. Thanks for the informative video as always!!!
This video couldn't have crossed my path soon enough
Great! I personally prefer the 70% dough.
Nice soundtrack!!! Few musics seen like Bossa Nova.
Great video. Thank you! The crumb of the 75% one is what I'm typically chasing. (I don't like messy hands.) Would love to see one on gluten development!
And I can't remember, but have you done one on varying salt amounts?
Many thanks! You asked us to tell you about what we would like to see. I would like to see whether an open-crumb bread can be made out of a supermarket wheat flour with 10.5% protein content.
Awesome ... thank you for the experiment ... was very interesting. I like any and all experiments, I am using a rye starter and want to make rye bread with a proportion of bread flour that will give me a nice light and airy loaf ... would love to see experiments with rye flour included too :) Thank you for providing me with a tremendous amount of reference material .. I have yet to make one loaf and my starter is now 20 days old and smells so good but has never doubled in 4 hrs ... so I think I have to accept that and move forward with what I've got. Am feeding it 1:5:5 as that grew better than 1:10:10 and 1:1:1 or 1:2:2 ... sourdough starter has been a daily experiment so far :)
I would love to see you make Pan de Cristal - “glass bread.” I think it’s Spain’s answer to the baguette or ciabatta. Thank you Sune for everything. ❤
@Foodgeek I'd love to see an experiment testing different folding recommendations. I'd like to see your 3 fold max method versus Chad Robertson's country loaf for example!
I liked the 75%. I liked the oven spring off 75% too
All looks good to me sir ❤
Super video! Mr. Sune. How about experiment on various flour types ? I use Australia-made flours and I find I can't work on 70 % hydration and above. Dough is too runny, sticky or 'wet' looking. Difficult for me to purchase Nordic 'strong' flour types here in Singapore.
if you use a statistical software package you can design experiments to look for significant interactions between variables but keep in mind that you will need to be able to find a way to actually measure your outputs. One idea would be to cut identical dimension slices from the canter of slices and weigh them. Use a guide to get equal thickness and a cutter to cut out the sections from the center. Lower weight would be more open crumb
I'd like to see a discussion on taste and texture from this experiment! I've watched a number of videos on this topic now, everybody talks about what the bread looks like, nobody talks about what it tastes like. Also worth mentioning that in times before social media 70% hydration would have been considered high hydration. These days even 85% hydration doesn't count as high hydration. As such comparing 65% hydration vs. the maximum the tested flour will handle will make this difference much more pronounced.
I always learn something from your videos. Personally, I prefer a tighter crumb for bread that will be used for sandwiches etc, and a more open crumb for bread that will be eaten as is, or with just a bit of butter or olive oil - something that is served with a meal. We have enough to argue about without getting all worked up over the tightness or openness of bread crumb!
I know this is coming in a bit late (I've been camping) but I vote for an experiment that tests crumb by fermentation. I'm the first to admit this is the part of sourdough baking I understand least well. I follow your formula for my bread, and it works. But I'm not exactly sure why!
Great experiment as always Sune! So you don't think the quality of the shaping is a strong contributor to the open crumb? I definitely agree all three you mentioned have great impact as well.. Combination I guess :-) as with life...
Hi Sune,
I love the blisters you manage to get in your bread! You are a real geek!
I have a few questions about this experiment.
1) You ended bulk fermentation at 25% for every loaf. Does it mean that hydration doesn't affect bulk fermentation?
2) Similar question: The oven temperature and baking time, are the same for all? Does not the 85% need more time than 70% to evaporate the greater amount of humidity? Does the crumb moisture similar for everyone?
3) This experiment suggests me that also the starter health influences open crumb more than hydration. Do you agree with that?
Thank you so much!
Hi Sune! Have you ever done an experiment where you bake the loaves at different temps? I see everyone saying to bake at high temps but I feel my loaves get very dark at higher temps. But if I bake for less time to make the loaves less dark they aren’t always done in the middle. Could you bake at a lower temp for a longer period of time? Great video BTW!
Sune, Where did you get the lids for the Rosti bowl. I checked your Amazon link but no lids. I have the bowls already but can't find the lids for them anywhere online?
Hi! Love your videos. How about shaping? A lot of Instagram star bakers shape a bit loosely to get an open crumb. No pre shaping and no stitching.
Good experiment. I do think flour has a big affect on openness. I haven't had as much open crumbs since I switched to a different flour but I don't particularly like the huge holes in my bread so I don't mind.
Great experiment! I would like to see an experiment about fermentation and open crumb next time :)
Questions: Which Caputo flour did you use? Which dough temp and roomtemp did you have?
Manitoba Oro and I don't measure temperatures. My proofer was set to 30C/86F 😊
@@Foodgeek Ok! Thanks!
My experiment would be jam vs butter on all four.. and I doubt there’d be a loser.. Great work as always Sune.. Cheers and best wishes..
yea, I need less fermentation but but more hydration -- those were the last two videos I watched. My bread taste superb but I am not getting the open crumb quality I like. Thanks for the recipe site as well.
I've said it before and I'll, say it again, you ARE Breaddie Van Halen!
Great experiment and presentation. On a separate note, you add salt with the initial mix. Some recipes wait to add it. I’ve tried both and never saw a benefit.
Thank you for the great video 😊. My question: It was no proofing before going in the fridge ,or before going into the oven?
No final proofing at all 😊
Great experiment Sune. I agree with your interpretation of the results. Interestingly, the 80% loaf seemed to have sections of the slice was a lighter coloration - almost white. What do you think caused that color variation inside that one loaf?
Not sure 😊
Flour eksperiment on the crum 🙌
I prefer 75% hydration, it looks good to me.
Thanks for sharing.
Can you make the real time demo for 85 percent hydration please?
Hi enjoy watching your video. How to have a soft crust and will d hydration contribute to the dryness of d bread? Thanks
For a softer crust you can keep the cover of your Dutch oven for the entire bake. Hydration will keep your bread fresh longer.
That’s what I do-leave it covered longer. Only remove it to brown it a little more if needed. I check doneness using a thermometer inserted into the loaf.
Ive made some very open crumbs with lower hydration. The key is actually in the fold and gluten structure of the bread. I would say for me open crumb bread is what i prefer with soups/salads but for sandwiches i would like a closed crumb so both are good bakes
@Foodgeek Do you have a link to the shop carrying your bread flower you mentioned in the video?
You can buy Caputo Manitoba flour on e- bay
I don't think that a commercial sourdough bakery would want to sell anything above 70% because many people would consider the crumb defective, except sourdough Instagrammers.
Experiment Time Suggestion: Compare a 15% bread flour bread to an 11% flour but with Vital Wheat Gluten added to bring it up to 15% and see what the effect is on the final product in taste, rise etc.
Hi Sune, I would like to learn more about natural preservatives for sourdough bread. For example, I’ve heard that adding raw honey to the dough will extend a loaf’s shelf-life. Is this true? How can the honey be evenly distributed throughout the dough? Are there other natural preservatives that your community of bakers have tried (succeeded or failed)? Thank you!
Like to see effect of fermentation. Thanks
What is temperature for baking when you bake it direct from fridge and can we bake sandwich bread also like this? Please answer
One factor in this experiment is that not all hydrations have the same gluten development phase. I think the 80% and 85% hydration doughs could've benefitted from a couple extra folding sessions or a lamination. I've seen some very nice open crumbs at hydration levels as low as 65%, but I've seen even crazier crumbs at ridiculous hydration levels of 100%+ (i.e., pan de cristal).
I loved the background song. What is it ?
Interesting experiment! Quick question: Did each loaf spend the same amount of time between being taken out of the fridge and being baked? Seems like that might influence results if not kept constant.
I grab it from the fridge, score and bake 😊
I think that handling is also important factor:). Good gluten development and high-protein flours can't help if you degas your dough during preparation.
love it! "open crumb is stupid because the jam falls through." 🤣👍 hey sune, have you ever experimented with using beer malts to bake with? i know it would require some DIY grain milling, but in small amounts a blender works very well. would be fun to see how different malts (particularly caramel/dark ones) would contribute to the flavor of sourdough. and the lighter malts are diastatic, so that might affect crumb structure too, in theory. what do you think?
Many flours already contain some malted grain. They do it to adjust for damaged starch percentage and some other factors in each crop.
Great experiment, I liked the look of the cross section of the 80% but think the 70%/75% had a nice ratio of holes to oven spring and good large slices.
Also did you say four consecutive slices from each bread? There was only three! ;)
Oops. Musta ate the other pieces 🤣😂
@@Foodgeek can’t blame you! They all looked excellent. Looking forward to more experiments! Perhaps one related to enriched doughs could be fun, difference between using fresh eggs/dried egg/egg yolk/egg white etc., (if you haven’t done it already that is, I haven’t watched all your videos).
What temperature please
Take a look at the 3-4 countries/regions that most view you, then do a video of 3-4 most common HG flours avail in super markets in those regions while holding other factors constant.
Hi, you are a great baker! May i ask, will i have the same result if i bake on the pan with steam?
The reason I don't promote this method very much is, that it's very oven dependent. My oven is a steam oven, which means it's sealed and will keep the steam inside, but I know not all ovens are made this way.
The only way to know is to test it :)
@@Foodgeek i see its not your method, wanted to know your opinion, i'll try, thank you)
I do it at times. My cheddar and smoked paprika bread, sourdough rolls 😊
I really think it’s more in the shaping than hydration. I’ve tried all the way up to 90% and get a similar open crumb with 73% hydration- which is my preferred for ease of dough handling and as long as I’m careful and don’t deflate the dough during shaping I get great open crumb 🤷🏼♀️
Perhaps I glazed over or missed it, but I assume there are some benefits of having higher hydration?? For example, do higher hydration breads stay fresh longer (i.e. have decreased tendency to dry out over time)?
Are there other established benefits of high hydration, or should I just stick to my standard 75% hydration formula based on this experiment? Any thoughts are welcomed.
Are the doughs freeze cold when they go into the oven?
I would love to see a comparison between store bought whole grain flour and home milled flour. I have a Mockmill, and my dough looks totally different than yours; a lot "grainier" 🤣. It seems the store bought whole grain flour version is still still sifted.
I am a little late and off topic but not sure how to reach you. How do you calculate hydration when ingredients such as milk, eggs , butter, or oil? Do you take them into consideration?
On my bread calculator I've added the different ingredients and have the water content recorded. Then I estimate it based on that :)
fdgk.net/bread-calculator
Gluten development with making bread from the lower gluten forming flours plz. For example Khorasan or whatever you choose.
What was your oven temp?
In my opinion the openness of the crumb dependent mainly on how intensively you degas after bulk fermentation
Could you tell me how to calculate hydration.....??
I’d like to see an experiment on flour.. here in the Netherlands or Germany we only get 11-12% protein flours.. also at bio-food stores.. I haven’t as of now gotten my hands on higher protein flour.. so making bread with 11% / 12% and 14% protein or with whole flours mostly 12% protein and a ratio of 20:80 whole grain/white flour - 20% whole grain flour (12%protein) and 80% white flour 11% protein these kinds of experiments
The biggest differnce is probably how much water it can take :)
One thing that the hydration really seemed to impact was the shape - higher hydration loaves were flatter.
Wow ! The more wet dough the more open crumb.
Woot woot!
I like the 70% of hydration!.i have made the 65% and it came out almost perfect!
Thanks for sharing your video!
I would love to know how the type of flour affects open crumbs. Is higher gluten better or worst?
75% and 85% had the biggest holes.... the scientific conclusion is that the hydration should end in 5.