The trend I see developing is that sour is going to be inversely proportional to the openness of the crumb: the more sour the taste, the tighter the crumb. Sour is largely a product of acidity, and acids degrade gluten. The trick will be to develop a method of preserving or rehabilitating gluten in the presence of high acidity. I love that these experiments pop holes in the time-worn ‘rules’ of bread baking.
at 20% you could never hope it will change the taste I looked at the recipe b4 I watched. I skipped to the end and he said this very thing. The guy knows!!
ive been getting super lazy with my starter. i keep it in the fridge, feed it once a week. it usually rises 2.5x over night. i then use the starter directly for the dough, no levain, and put the leftover starter back in the fridge. it does smell super sour (almost a bit like glue), when i take it out of the fridge, but the smell goes away after feeding and the bread is great. i also only have very little discard.
I've been doing something similar. I maintain only a small amount of starter. I remove the jar from the refrigerator at night, stir in equal amounts of flour and water (1:3:3 - 1:5:5), and let it work overnight. I try to plan things so the total quantity in the jar is 20 or 25 grams more I will need to make bread. By morning, the starter doubles or triples in volume. I scoop out what I need. The small remainder (15 to 30 grams) goes back in the refrigerator. This system has been working well, and it doesn't produce enough to discard.
yes I have done this too. as long as you track bulk fermentation it is fine. From mu experience, strong levain at its peak is more foolproof than starter thats been sitting in the fridge. I personally stopped the whole fridge thing. I just feed a very small amount of starter 1:10:10 and leave it out. it doesnt go bad and my levain is always very strong now.
I treat my starter the same way. When getting ready to bake, I’ll feed it right when I pull it from the fridge and then let it warm up some and get bubbly... then into the dough it goes. I keep my starter in a 1qt. jar with a loose glass lid and I try to keep the jar about 3/4 full, so I do “small” feeds when when I haven’t baked and “big” feeds when I’ve used a bunch of starter and the level is low. I’ve always had good results, particularly with Sunne’s recipe. I’ve done no experiments, but general experience for me is that my bread gets more sour the longer the final proof is. There’s a scientific paper out there “somewhere” that pointed me at that. I’ll try to find it again and post a link here.
I don't make levain but I make the bread the day before and keep it in the fridge in the proofing basket so I can bake the next day at convenient time. This means I am no slave to unpredictable rise of my bread, I let it rise for however long it needs and don't have to bake at some random time in the evening. Also that's the only way I found to have freshly baked bread for the breakfast.
I have been enjoying your work all last year and making bread weekly during pandemic. I almost feel that bread just makes itself. It's always delicious and the process is such a joy. Thank you Sune. Did the lame you used on the last loaf have a 3D printed holder? My lame is usually a blade on a skewer but I have been thinking of making a 3d printed holder.
Loving the experiment series, great to see the many questions i have been tried out. I wonder though, what difference does it make if you feed your starter just on Rye flour? or wholemeal? any impact on how sour the final loaf of bread is?
To get a more sour bread I've been using a Poolish method. I add all the ingredients except for 60% of the flour and let it ferment at room temperature for 24 hours minimum. From there I add the remaining flour and continue as if I had just started the bulk fermentation process. The oven spring is compromised a bit but the flavor is much more sour.
I like 50%-75% starter because it is more resistant to spoiling. I pour carbonated water to my starter jar to thoroughly dissolve the starter, then I throw 2x the weight of water in flour and knead it inside the jar with a very sturdy small spoon until it is a single lump and there is no dry flour in the jar. Dry starter is very nice at picking up any traces of old starter from the sides of the jar which helps keep the jar clean and I think at least partly explains why it spoils less. I keep starter at room temperature (meaning 20-30C where I live). Limiting amount of oxygen helps prevent spoiling and for that I use carbonated water and I use a lid that prevents outside air to enter the jar.
Interesting, and thanx for the experiment. My starter feeding routine in the last 6 months: I make an 50% hidratation starter (50% Bread flour - 50% whole grain (rye) flour) I leave it on the counter for 2-3 hours, then put into the fridge. This is my mother dough and it's approx. 150g Each time I want to make a bread, then the night before I get 25-30g from the fridge and I make the levain with 100% hidratation (ie. if I need 150g starter for the bread, then 25g mother dough, 75g water and 65g flour). I repeat this until the mother dough is gone. Then from the last baking's levain I put aside 20-25g (100% hidratation starter), I add 75g flour and 65g water. This will be my next mother dough. One mother dough lasts for me around 1-2 months, and I don't have to feed only when I want to bake and when I run out of mother dough. This is safe and easy.
My starter is 100% hydration, naturally made beginning in a campground in Alaska 2 years ago, kept in the fridge and fed once every 5 days when I use it. I use rye flour and filtered water. When I bake I use 100 grams of it to a 1000 gram dough ball, or 10%. Works well.
Just love all your videos..such a great resource😊 I don’t bake bread often, because I do not want to be fat...lol..but I love making it and for occasions and it makes neighbors very happy to get a warm loaf. Couldn’t do it as well if not for these well done videos...
I have been following the Extra-tangy sourdough bread recipe from King Arthur. Using 37% of starter, mix with 56-60% of water and 70% of flour and let it sit for 4 hrs in room temperature and move in refrigerator for over night, some time more than overnight and mix in the rest of flour and salt on the following day. The dough is not difficult to handle at all, the bread is just about 20-30% more tangy. (2 days old bread has good tangy)
Ok..I left one of my loaves in my loaf in the fridge 48 hours because I had something come up and couldn’t bake it until the yesterday, and figured I would see if there was any difference from the loaf I baked from the same batch the day before...wow...big difference...😳 much more sour, which I prefer. It was a little flat, but the crumb was decent and the taste incredible. Since starting this sourdough journey, this is the first distinctively sour loaf so far.
I love sour dough bread. No one makes decent sour dough where I live. Your sour dough series has sparked a "get off your butt" and make your own ambition. I'll be doing that, using all your techniques soon. Hope to be leaving valuable/interesting comments soonest.
Sune: just to be clear, its 20% by weight? And you use the sam 80/20 (white bread flour/rye flour? Thanks. New subscriber and baker, learn a lot from your videos.
He aprendido mucho con tus vídeos y me han aclarado muchas dudas tus experimentos, cada vez hago mejores panes, muchas felicidades y sigue subiendo más vídeos.
From my experience with sourdough, if you are really after very sour bread, you should do very long fermentation. For example, I ferment my rye bread for about 16-20h before baking and at that point, you are basically baking sourdough starter. However, you can't bake such bread freestyle, you need a tin. My regular breads with about 5h RT fermentation and overnight in the fridge come out much less sour.
are you doing 100% rye? i've been baking 50/50 rye:wheat, plus i add 2-3% vital gluten depending on which rye i use, then the long cold fermentation and no problems baking freestanding.
Appreciate your efforts & experiments. My experience with 50% hydration starter and 50% hydration Levain at 20% baker's percentage yields much improved rise & much milder taste. Might be because my starter is maintained at 50% and not just recently converted. I only make sourdough sandwich bread and buns preferring 9*4*4 pans with about 800g dough per loaf.
Nice video, thank you. My understanding of the matter is, that it is the combination of dough stiffness and low temperature while fermenting that favours the bakteria over the jeast and so creates sourness. As the hydration of the dough shall not be changed this could mean a stiff starter - as you did - in combination with low fermentation temperature through all the process - starter and bulk fermentation - with accordingly longer fermentation times. Does this make sense? I tried it myself and I (warnt to?) believe that there is a noticable effect.
HI Sune. Thanks so very much I have been looking at a way of making my early sourdough experiments much less sour(against the trend I know but thats just how we are) so I just reversed your experiment and used a much more liquid starter. Its getting better
After watching this I referred to my favorite book on the subject of sourdough bread, Chad Robertson's Tartine Bread. Although Mr. Robertson discussion is how to manage the sour aspect of the overall flavor, the insights of the cause could lead to enhancing the sour. I too would like to enhance this aspect of my bread. Cold butter, fresh sourdough with a proper tang to it and my day is made!
Another great video! I think your best bet to make the flavor more sour is to increase the amount of fermentation products that end up in the bread. A straightforward way to do this is to use a starter that has not been fed for a while. Don't you usually feed yours every 24 hours? You could do an experiment with starters that have been fed 24 h, 36 h, and 48 h before mixing. You might have to adjust the time for bulk fermentation, as the older starters may be less active, but I doubt there is much difference. The feeding times I gave are just examples - you might want to try even longer.
Hi! Great work with your vifeos and bakning. Your last insight about gluten in starter being destroyed in ferment is very intressting. I assumed a wi time ago that it should be logic to use the weekest flor for the starter saving the strongest gluten fresh for autolyse. Last times i made total of 800 g flour dough: 100 spelt 500 strong (but kinda week) wheet, 200 whole rye, total 90% hydration. I used 80 g of my rye in starter with 100 g of wather, 125 % hydration. Rye fluor is dryer or more binding in my exp. Remaining 120 g rye I scolded in 150 g boiling wather. Then rest of 600 g flour i mixed with 450 g wather, 75 % hyfration. Mixing scalded rye with white autolyse dough was a bit engaging. I think i will try to scolde rye in more wather next time and use the cooled solusion to autolyse, proportions remaining. Wonder if using a week flour for starter makes any difference! Thanks again!
Maybe I missed it in the description, but do you have the link to or dimensions of your final proofing containers? I've tried a couple different ones that I have but seem to mess up the dough getting it out. Maybe mine are too deep?
Acidity is affected more by temperature. Detmold process, especially the 3 stage, addresses all three aspects: wild yeast, acetic acid, and lactic acid.
I remember a comment from an Austrian baker: if you use a starter far before it peaked when it's pretty non-sour, it will take much longer time to rise your dough and creates loads of acid during this time ergo the bread will be very sour.
Maybe the microbial composition of the starter (east/acid-lactic bacteria ratio) is more important than starter hydration. I think that different composition types can be due to the origin of the starter (from hole grain or plain wheat flour or flours from other grains, using fruits..), starter feeding procedures (flour type, hydration, frequency) and storage temperature, for instance. Although the results are a little disappointing, your experiment is relevant. Your videos are great. Thanks for sharing them.
My understanding is that the bacterial growth promoting sourness is largely unaffected by temperature. Therefore the longer you can leave your bread to prove the more sour it gets. I guess sourness should also be affected by the inoculation but if the inoculation is stronger and that speeds the proof then any effect will be countered. As someone says below, retarding the fermentation is probably the best way. Also, I guess, you could try to change your starter feeding so it is stronger in bacteria and weaker in yeast.
Hello, like a few other, I was also wondering why you didn't compensate the hydration in the final dough. Was it deliberate or routine? BTW nice collection of scoring knives!
I did. They are all 80% :) fdgk.net/starter-hydration-experiment-100-percent-hydration-formula fdgk.net/starter-hydration-experiment-75-percent-hydration-formula fdgk.net/starter-hydration-experiment-50-percent-hydration-formula
I suspect the bulk fermentation temperature might have the largest impact. I heard that colder temperatures encourage more bacteria growth, resulting in a more sour taste.
Re: 14:03, I think most of us prefer quality over quantity (or speed). Glad to hear you won't be compromising your high standards to please our neediness. 😊
Thank you Sune for these experiments where you manage only one variable at a time. These are most helpful. It seems like the 75% hydration starter made for a dough that was stickier than the other two and it did develop the same deep color as the other two. It also appeared that the 50% hydration starter had the best rise of the 3. Do you agree with these observations and if yes, were there other reasons for these outcomes? Keep up the great work sir!
That experiment also shows you should be using less water for that flour. The 50% starter bread has the best and most open crumb and is the other ones are quite flat. For an 80% hydration you should at least be using 14% protein flour since it lower protein flowers can’t handle the water and won’t build gluten that leads to less dough strength
First of all great work like always! I would not pretend to have anything on you so my comment is really just an observation; mixing stiff leaven in water works great but it’s possible to break them down in your flour a bit like you would do with fresh yeast.
An idea: I'm wondering if measuring the pH of starter and dough at various times would be a significant piece of useful data, especially regarding the question of sourness. (and whether it is feasible to measure the pH of a non-liquid such as dough). And a question: if the target hydration was set initially, doesn't 4 feedings of 1:10:10 make the final hydration almost exactly 100% for all 3? Why not do, for example, 4 feedings of 1:5:10 (starter:water:flour) to get the 50% hydration?
Have you ever experimented with starter temperature to enhance tang? I recently put my jar of sour dough starter in a very warm oven that was cooling down from a previous bake. I erred and left it in too long, I thought. I mixed in my very warm starter to my autolyzed dough. It was about an 8% starter to flour ratio with an overnight proof and another 16 hrs after shaping in the cooler. Turned out to be the most sour of any bread I have made! How about trying that as one of your experiments?
Another great video. It appeared to me that the 75% bread was a bit different from the others, is this an illusion? It seemed to be stickier when you shaped it, took longer to get out of the banneton onto the peel, and had less oven-spring when baked. Perhaps that one might have benefited from additional gluten development? Another great video, and I look forward to the next.
Sune, I'd like to ask you if you have ever tried an experiment using your discard in the dough? Curious as to how that would turn out. Of course, you would also have to include active starter, but what if you mixed in a cup or two of old discard? Hmm, I might try that myself.
@@Foodgeek great video. I want to find out how adding discard (maybe 200-300g) along with active starter might enhance the sour flavor of the bread. I'll have to try it. But first, I've GOT to try making your cheddar sourdough bread! Just made a big pot of chili for it!
My question is what is the best ratio for feeding a starter prior to use? I know that there was a video from, I believe, The Bread Code that recommended 1:5:5. The ratio in your recipe that I use is 1:3:3. Is there much of a difference in the result from, for say, equal ratios compared to the 1:10:10 that you used here?
Excuse me, I don't speak English. I have translated it on google. I'm new to the bakery, I make baguettes. They come out delicious but the next day it's gummy (tempered), what could be the cause? my recipe is 550gr strength flour. water 340gr. yeast 3gr. and salt 11gr. With block fermentation for 2 hours, formed and rest for 15 minutes and a second rise of 1 hour. Baked with steam at 250 degrees for 35 minutes. It would be helpful if you could answer me. Thank you. i am using your calculator
If your experimentation results in specific parameters that can be adjusted for a more or less sour taste it would be good to include that information in your master recipe. I think you've already done this, but it seems like different starter inoculation rates (5%, 12%, 20%) would affect the final sour taste as it would take longer for the proofing times.
@@Foodgeek I'll look forward to that. My current write up (a work in progress) includes each facet of breadmaking. I did separate the sourdough from active dry yeast master recipe. I'm trying to include tests in each step which lets me know when to move on to the next step. I try to include alternatives in the process where applicable. I'm fairly certain it will be possible to add a couple steps that will allow me to include both active dry yeast and sourdough in the same document. We shall see. That said, if that will make a single master recipe too long I might just leave the two of them separate.
I think the effect would be more noticeable by going the other way around and using 150%, 125% and 100% starter instead. In theory the less water your sourdough starter contains the less sour your bread becomes and high amount of water should favor the lactic acid bacteria flow :)
If the "make it sour" quest hasn't ended, some people say a starter with a much higher hydration makes the bread more sour. The old timers who mixed a cup of flour and a cup of water were running around 170% hydration. I'm skeptical, but would love to see it put to the test.
I have to admit that I’ve been struggling with this. I have excellent results. My oven spring is finally what I’ve always been aiming for and my loafs are tender and delicious. The only thing missing is a more sour taste. I want it to be more tangy. I’m comparing this to store bought and I’ve read that some retail isn’t even real sourdough. They put scorbic acids or vinegar in to fool you into thinking it’s sourdough. I’ve been trying to use a more mature starter with mixed results. I couldn’t tell any difference, but my neighbor commented that it was more sour and I hadn’t told them of my goals. So, I’ll keep experimenting as well...
@@JuliaVidile Mature from what I have read, is one that has been fed, expands and then recedes back down to its starting point. When I take “Scratch” out to feed him on bread day, he is very mature. Looks flat and not active. Your nose really can smell the vinegary scent. I have tried feeding that and not pouring any off. He responds and by the time he begins to recede back down again, my adylise (spelt wrong) of the flour is done and I add my starter (Scratch). Just did two loafs yesterday, but still not getting the tart taste I get from store bought. As mentioned, I’ve read that mass produced sourdough is generally made with various acids or vinegar to get that taste going. Hope this helps....
@@Foodgeek I have both. :-) rye is much more sour than wheat. Also I found out that mine wheat prefer high quality flour. Rye is more humble and it's happy with supermarket rye flour. XD My usual bread is rye/wheat 50:50.
Sune I have a question. So I've followed the Sourdough for beginners recipe, I've done very well, and my sourdough starter just turned a year old! (your recipe btw.) My question is, now that I have a stable sourdough how can I increase the hydration? I feel I'm ready to challenge my Arthur (starter' s name), and my skills. 🤣😂 Please advice, and provide me a new hydration recipe. You would be proud if you were to see my loaves, also I'm at pro at scoring the ear!!! 😍 -Much love from Texas! 😘🇺🇸
You will need some flour that can take a higher hydration. You need to be able to get very good gluten development. You need to be able to shape with very little contact with the dough :) Those are the most important :)
I found exactly what YOU did.. it was not different in taste. I tried using a LARGE amount of starter that was very "sour" smelling.. but that really did not make much of an impact. I'm stumped...
This result didn’t surprise me. My guess would be that feeding your Levin once at different hydration % doesn’t really give you the different character you were hoping for. I would think you need to change the starter % for many feeds to build the different character. So you would need 3 starters fed at different hydration % for at least 7 feedings.
I didn’t know you did extra feeding at that %, missed when you said it on the video. I just figured that the sour will come from a different culture being boosted by that different environment. To me it makes sense that this would take time to build those cultures. But it sounds like you would have seen some difference by 4 feedings if there was going to be any.
I have an input. Your sound tends to become quieter at the end of your sentences making it quite difficult to hear, but if I bump up the volume the rest of the sentence and music becomes too loud. But thanks for the video!
It seems the one made with 75% starter looked stickier than the other two, and it did not rise as well. My question is why was there an expectation that altering the hydration of the starter would affect the sourness of the bread? Great video, thanks
yeah, i was thinking the same thing about the 75% one, its completely counter-intuitive. i bet it has to do with the flour. as far as sourness, i think it has to do with pH balance. if there's less water in an otherwise same starter, the pH would be higher. but i think to actually sour the bread you have to do a long cold fermentation.
hey - for a proper, scientific study, you were interested in the effect of starter hydration, so you should have kept all other variables the same. did you account for the fact that you used a differe lame for each of the 3 breads? haha - just kidding - great work as always! one more (semi-serious) question - for the shot of you putting the pot lid onto the cutting board, is that the same shot you use for every video, or do you re-film it for each bread you bake?
If the desired result is a more sour taste, retard the fermentation by placing the loaves in the refrigerator for at least 48 hours. Not only is it healthier but delicious
Even an experiment that seems to show no difference is an experiment worth doing! Thanks for your efforts FoodGeek!
Thanks, and I agree :)
The trend I see developing is that sour is going to be inversely proportional to the openness of the crumb: the more sour the taste, the tighter the crumb. Sour is largely a product of acidity, and acids degrade gluten.
The trick will be to develop a method of preserving or rehabilitating gluten in the presence of high acidity.
I love that these experiments pop holes in the time-worn ‘rules’ of bread baking.
A poolish could accomplish this if you’re willing to utilize a portion of your dough to bakers yeast
Man, the track during shaping is A+++!
If I’ve learnt anything from your channel, it’s that the ingredient that matters most is skill 😅
at 20% you could never hope it will change the taste
I looked at the recipe b4 I watched. I skipped to the end and he said this very thing. The guy knows!!
ive been getting super lazy with my starter. i keep it in the fridge, feed it once a week. it usually rises 2.5x over night. i then use the starter directly for the dough, no levain, and put the leftover starter back in the fridge. it does smell super sour (almost a bit like glue), when i take it out of the fridge, but the smell goes away after feeding and the bread is great. i also only have very little discard.
I've been doing something similar. I maintain only a small amount of starter. I remove the jar from the refrigerator at night, stir in equal amounts of flour and water (1:3:3 - 1:5:5), and let it work overnight. I try to plan things so the total quantity in the jar is 20 or 25 grams more I will need to make bread. By morning, the starter doubles or triples in volume. I scoop out what I need. The small remainder (15 to 30 grams) goes back in the refrigerator. This system has been working well, and it doesn't produce enough to discard.
I do the same and I can’t imagine wasting all that flour by feeding twice a day.
Same here!
yes I have done this too. as long as you track bulk fermentation it is fine. From mu experience, strong levain at its peak is more foolproof than starter thats been sitting in the fridge.
I personally stopped the whole fridge thing. I just feed a very small amount of starter 1:10:10 and leave it out. it doesnt go bad and my levain is always very strong now.
I treat my starter the same way. When getting ready to bake, I’ll feed it right when I pull it from the fridge and then let it warm up some and get bubbly... then into the dough it goes. I keep my starter in a 1qt. jar with a loose glass lid and I try to keep the jar about 3/4 full, so I do “small” feeds when when I haven’t baked and “big” feeds when I’ve used a bunch of starter and the level is low. I’ve always had good results, particularly with Sunne’s recipe.
I’ve done no experiments, but general experience for me is that my bread gets more sour the longer the final proof is. There’s a scientific paper out there “somewhere” that pointed me at that. I’ll try to find it again and post a link here.
My positive take away is, I don’t always have to wait to make bread if I forget to make a levain the night before.
I don't make levain but I make the bread the day before and keep it in the fridge in the proofing basket so I can bake the next day at convenient time. This means I am no slave to unpredictable rise of my bread, I let it rise for however long it needs and don't have to bake at some random time in the evening. Also that's the only way I found to have freshly baked bread for the breakfast.
I have been enjoying your work all last year and making bread weekly during pandemic. I almost feel that bread just makes itself. It's always delicious and the process is such a joy. Thank you Sune. Did the lame you used on the last loaf have a 3D printed holder? My lame is usually a blade on a skewer but I have been thinking of making a 3d printed holder.
Thanks fot the experiments!
Thank you for making such great videos, I have learned a TON from you.
Loving the experiment series, great to see the many questions i have been tried out. I wonder though, what difference does it make if you feed your starter just on Rye flour? or wholemeal? any impact on how sour the final loaf of bread is?
Cool comparison and experiment
To get a more sour bread I've been using a Poolish method. I add all the ingredients except for 60% of the flour and let it ferment at room temperature for 24 hours minimum. From there I add the remaining flour and continue as if I had just started the bulk fermentation process. The oven spring is compromised a bit but the flavor is much more sour.
I like 50%-75% starter because it is more resistant to spoiling. I pour carbonated water to my starter jar to thoroughly dissolve the starter, then I throw 2x the weight of water in flour and knead it inside the jar with a very sturdy small spoon until it is a single lump and there is no dry flour in the jar. Dry starter is very nice at picking up any traces of old starter from the sides of the jar which helps keep the jar clean and I think at least partly explains why it spoils less.
I keep starter at room temperature (meaning 20-30C where I live).
Limiting amount of oxygen helps prevent spoiling and for that I use carbonated water and I use a lid that prevents outside air to enter the jar.
Interesting, and thanx for the experiment.
My starter feeding routine in the last 6 months:
I make an 50% hidratation starter (50% Bread flour - 50% whole grain (rye) flour)
I leave it on the counter for 2-3 hours, then put into the fridge. This is my mother dough and it's approx. 150g
Each time I want to make a bread, then the night before I get 25-30g from the fridge and I make the levain with 100% hidratation (ie. if I need 150g starter for the bread, then 25g mother dough, 75g water and 65g flour).
I repeat this until the mother dough is gone.
Then from the last baking's levain I put aside 20-25g (100% hidratation starter), I add 75g flour and 65g water. This will be my next mother dough.
One mother dough lasts for me around 1-2 months, and I don't have to feed only when I want to bake and when I run out of mother dough.
This is safe and easy.
Hoping to see the next video in this series
My starter is 100% hydration, naturally made beginning in a campground in Alaska 2 years ago, kept in the fridge and fed once every 5 days when I use it. I use rye flour and filtered water. When I bake I use 100 grams of it to a 1000 gram dough ball, or 10%. Works well.
Just love all your videos..such a great resource😊 I don’t bake bread often, because I do not want to be fat...lol..but I love making it and for occasions and it makes neighbors very happy to get a warm loaf. Couldn’t do it as well if not for these well done videos...
If you fed the starters at a ratio of 1:10:10 four times, wouldn't that bring the starters back to 100% hydration?
If you fed it with the same ratio,the whole time, it doesn’t change or add up to 100%
I have been following the Extra-tangy sourdough bread recipe from King Arthur. Using 37% of starter, mix with 56-60% of water and 70% of flour and let it sit for 4 hrs in room temperature and move in refrigerator for over night, some time more than overnight and mix in the rest of flour and salt on the following day. The dough is not difficult to handle at all, the bread is just about 20-30% more tangy. (2 days old bread has good tangy)
What is that strat style guitar over your left shoulder? Love the pick guard shape
Ok..I left one of my loaves in my loaf in the fridge 48 hours because I had something come up and couldn’t bake it until the yesterday, and figured I would see if there was any difference from the loaf I baked from the same batch the day before...wow...big difference...😳 much more sour, which I prefer. It was a little flat, but the crumb was decent and the taste incredible. Since starting this sourdough journey, this is the first distinctively sour loaf so far.
I love sour dough bread. No one makes decent sour dough where I live. Your sour dough series has sparked a "get off your butt" and make your own ambition. I'll be doing that, using all your techniques soon. Hope to be leaving valuable/interesting comments soonest.
Sune: just to be clear, its 20% by weight? And you use the sam 80/20 (white bread flour/rye flour? Thanks. New subscriber and baker, learn a lot from your videos.
Thank you so much for doing this experiment!
He aprendido mucho con tus vídeos y me han aclarado muchas dudas tus experimentos, cada vez hago mejores panes, muchas felicidades y sigue subiendo más vídeos.
From my experience with sourdough, if you are really after very sour bread, you should do very long fermentation. For example, I ferment my rye bread for about 16-20h before baking and at that point, you are basically baking sourdough starter. However, you can't bake such bread freestyle, you need a tin. My regular breads with about 5h RT fermentation and overnight in the fridge come out much less sour.
are you doing 100% rye? i've been baking 50/50 rye:wheat, plus i add 2-3% vital gluten depending on which rye i use, then the long cold fermentation and no problems baking freestanding.
Appreciate your efforts & experiments.
My experience with 50% hydration starter and 50% hydration Levain at 20% baker's percentage yields much improved rise & much milder taste.
Might be because my starter is maintained at 50% and not just recently converted.
I only make sourdough sandwich bread and buns preferring 9*4*4 pans with about 800g dough per loaf.
Nice video, thank you. My understanding of the matter is, that it is the combination of dough stiffness and low temperature while fermenting that favours the bakteria over the jeast and so creates sourness. As the hydration of the dough shall not be changed this could mean a stiff starter - as you did - in combination with low fermentation temperature through all the process - starter and bulk fermentation - with accordingly longer fermentation times. Does this make sense? I tried it myself and I (warnt to?) believe that there is a noticable effect.
HI Sune. Thanks so very much I have been looking at a way of making my early sourdough experiments much less sour(against the trend I know but thats just how we are) so I just reversed your experiment and used a much more liquid starter. Its getting better
Before putting the dough in the proving baskets: What happened to the 75% dough? Seemed much more sticky than either the 50% or the 100%.
I noticed that too and have the same question. The 75% also has more larger air pockets which is usually associated with higher hydration.
Same here
Thanks for sharing your Experiment.. Kind regards from Black forest in germany.
After watching this I referred to my favorite book on the subject of sourdough bread, Chad Robertson's Tartine Bread. Although Mr. Robertson discussion is how to manage the sour aspect of the overall flavor, the insights of the cause could lead to enhancing the sour. I too would like to enhance this aspect of my bread. Cold butter, fresh sourdough with a proper tang to it and my day is made!
maybe a video about the difference in bread between 100% wheat and 100% rye starter
Another great video! I think your best bet to make the flavor more sour is to increase the amount of fermentation products that end up in the bread. A straightforward way to do this is to use a starter that has not been fed for a while. Don't you usually feed yours every 24 hours? You could do an experiment with starters that have been fed 24 h, 36 h, and 48 h before mixing. You might have to adjust the time for bulk fermentation, as the older starters may be less active, but I doubt there is much difference. The feeding times I gave are just examples - you might want to try even longer.
I have great luck with sour flavor using an unfed starter.
@Sune. May we have a link for the lame that appears at 10:47 pls? First one I’ve seen that has it’s own safety cover!
Unfortunately it was removed from Thingiverse, so I cannot give it to you :(
@@Foodgeek No probs. Takk for prompt reply 🙂
Great job Sune... Thanks for all the work you do to make a good video for all of us 👍😉
Hi! Great work with your vifeos and bakning. Your last insight about gluten in starter being destroyed in ferment is very intressting. I assumed a wi time ago that it should be logic to use the weekest flor for the starter saving the strongest gluten fresh for autolyse. Last times i made total of 800 g flour dough: 100 spelt 500 strong (but kinda week) wheet, 200 whole rye, total 90% hydration. I used 80 g of my rye in starter with 100 g of wather, 125 % hydration. Rye fluor is dryer or more binding in my exp. Remaining 120 g rye I scolded in 150 g boiling wather. Then rest of 600 g flour i mixed with 450 g wather, 75 % hyfration. Mixing scalded rye with white autolyse dough was a bit engaging. I think i will try to scolde rye in more wather next time and use the cooled solusion to autolyse, proportions remaining.
Wonder if using a week flour for starter makes any difference!
Thanks again!
Do you have a affiliate link for the round lame?
This series is great, I'm glad you're doing it so I don't have to, LOL
Maybe I missed it in the description, but do you have the link to or dimensions of your final proofing containers?
I've tried a couple different ones that I have but seem to mess up the dough getting it out. Maybe mine are too deep?
Where do I buy the gloves that you used for hot pans? Thanks
Acidity is affected more by temperature. Detmold process, especially the 3 stage, addresses all three aspects: wild yeast, acetic acid, and lactic acid.
Ótimo vídeo. Pode-se observar perfeitamente o resultado da fermentação dos pães. E o melhor, todos com lindos e perfeitos alvéolos. Amo esses pães. 👏😍
did you compensate the missing water of the dry starter?
I remember a comment from an Austrian baker: if you use a starter far before it peaked when it's pretty non-sour, it will take much longer time to rise your dough and creates loads of acid during this time ergo the bread will be very sour.
Is there a hair on ur 50% bread? at 10:54
Maybe the microbial composition of the starter (east/acid-lactic bacteria ratio) is more important than starter hydration. I think that different composition types can be due to the origin of the starter (from hole grain or plain wheat flour or flours from other grains, using fruits..), starter feeding procedures (flour type, hydration, frequency) and storage temperature, for instance. Although the results are a little disappointing, your experiment is relevant. Your videos are great. Thanks for sharing them.
My understanding is that the bacterial growth promoting sourness is largely unaffected by temperature. Therefore the longer you can leave your bread to prove the more sour it gets. I guess sourness should also be affected by the inoculation but if the inoculation is stronger and that speeds the proof then any effect will be countered.
As someone says below, retarding the fermentation is probably the best way. Also, I guess, you could try to change your starter feeding so it is stronger in bacteria and weaker in yeast.
Hello, like a few other, I was also wondering why you didn't compensate the hydration in the final dough. Was it deliberate or routine? BTW nice collection of scoring knives!
I did. They are all 80% :)
fdgk.net/starter-hydration-experiment-100-percent-hydration-formula
fdgk.net/starter-hydration-experiment-75-percent-hydration-formula
fdgk.net/starter-hydration-experiment-50-percent-hydration-formula
@@Foodgeek Ah, ok then I just misunderstoof it, I thought it was 80% in the base.mix without the starter. My bad.
I suspect the bulk fermentation temperature might have the largest impact. I heard that colder temperatures encourage more bacteria growth, resulting in a more sour taste.
Agreed! Whenever I retard my dough for more than 24 hrs there's a more present sour taste in the bread. It's great :)
Re: 14:03, I think most of us prefer quality over quantity (or speed). Glad to hear you won't be compromising your high standards to please our neediness. 😊
Thank you Sune for these experiments where you manage only one variable at a time. These are most helpful. It seems like the 75% hydration starter made for a dough that was stickier than the other two and it did develop the same deep color as the other two. It also appeared that the 50% hydration starter had the best rise of the 3. Do you agree with these observations and if yes, were there other reasons for these outcomes? Keep up the great work sir!
That experiment also shows you should be using less water for that flour. The 50% starter bread has the best and most open crumb and is the other ones are quite flat. For an 80% hydration you should at least be using 14% protein flour since it lower protein flowers can’t handle the water and won’t build gluten that leads to less dough strength
First of all great work like always! I would not pretend to have anything on you so my comment is really just an observation; mixing stiff leaven in water works great but it’s possible to break them down in your flour a bit like you would do with fresh yeast.
An idea: I'm wondering if measuring the pH of starter and dough at various times would be a significant piece of useful data, especially regarding the question of sourness. (and whether it is feasible to measure the pH of a non-liquid such as dough).
And a question: if the target hydration was set initially, doesn't 4 feedings of 1:10:10 make the final hydration almost exactly 100% for all 3? Why not do, for example, 4 feedings of 1:5:10 (starter:water:flour) to get the 50% hydration?
Have you ever experimented with starter temperature to enhance tang? I recently put my jar of sour dough starter in a very warm oven that was cooling down from a previous bake. I erred and left it in too long, I thought. I mixed in my very warm starter to my autolyzed dough. It was about an 8% starter to flour ratio with an overnight proof and another 16 hrs after shaping in the cooler. Turned out to be the most sour of any bread I have made! How about trying that as one of your experiments?
Congrats on 100k subscribers!!! Can we get a Q&A Sune?
Yes, why not? 😁
But how to get a sandwich bread type crumb? Soft and no large holes?
Another great video. It appeared to me that the 75% bread was a bit different from the others, is this an illusion? It seemed to be stickier when you shaped it, took longer to get out of the banneton onto the peel, and had less oven-spring when baked. Perhaps that one might have benefited from additional gluten development?
Another great video, and I look forward to the next.
Sune, I'd like to ask you if you have ever tried an experiment using your discard in the dough? Curious as to how that would turn out. Of course, you would also have to include active starter, but what if you mixed in a cup or two of old discard? Hmm, I might try that myself.
Yes: ruclips.net/video/yJGMdXLn3fc/видео.html
@@Foodgeek great video. I want to find out how adding discard (maybe 200-300g) along with active starter might enhance the sour flavor of the bread. I'll have to try it. But first, I've GOT to try making your cheddar sourdough bread! Just made a big pot of chili for it!
@@mikekofMorrison its delicious! definitely give it a go.
I use a rye starter and I feel the only sourness I'm getting is the actual sourness of the rye. What do you think?
My question is what is the best ratio for feeding a starter prior to use? I know that there was a video from, I believe, The Bread Code that recommended 1:5:5. The ratio in your recipe that I use is 1:3:3. Is there much of a difference in the result from, for say, equal ratios compared to the 1:10:10 that you used here?
The only difference is the speed of which it grows. The reason I used 1:10:10 was to convert the starter so I could feed it once a day 😊
@@Foodgeek So by that reasoning, if you wanted to feed it every other day what would you do?
Excuse me, I don't speak English. I have translated it on google. I'm new to the bakery, I make baguettes. They come out delicious but the next day it's gummy (tempered), what could be the cause? my recipe is 550gr strength flour. water 340gr. yeast 3gr. and salt 11gr. With block fermentation for 2 hours, formed and rest for 15 minutes and a second rise of 1 hour. Baked with steam at 250 degrees for 35 minutes. It would be helpful if you could answer me. Thank you. i am using your calculator
What is your trick with working with such sticky dough.
A soft touch and water on hands and scraper :)
If your experimentation results in specific parameters that can be adjusted for a more or less sour taste it would be good to include that information in your master recipe. I think you've already done this, but it seems like different starter inoculation rates (5%, 12%, 20%) would affect the final sour taste as it would take longer for the proofing times.
Yes, I plan to update my master recipe when there's enough data :)
@@Foodgeek I'll look forward to that. My current write up (a work in progress) includes each facet of breadmaking. I did separate the sourdough from active dry yeast master recipe. I'm trying to include tests in each step which lets me know when to move on to the next step. I try to include alternatives in the process where applicable. I'm fairly certain it will be possible to add a couple steps that will allow me to include both active dry yeast and sourdough in the same document. We shall see.
That said, if that will make a single master recipe too long I might just leave the two of them separate.
I think the effect would be more noticeable by going the other way around and using 150%, 125% and 100% starter instead. In theory the less water your sourdough starter contains the less sour your bread becomes and high amount of water should favor the lactic acid bacteria flow :)
If the "make it sour" quest hasn't ended, some people say a starter with a much higher hydration makes the bread more sour. The old timers who mixed a cup of flour and a cup of water were running around 170% hydration. I'm skeptical, but would love to see it put to the test.
I like the crumb on the 50%.
Have you ever tried to bake directly in weck jars?
Hi. Please can you do an experiment time video testing the change in crumb as a result of adding baking soda to sourdough bread. Thanks.
Have you considered sourdough bagels? Seems to be very popular as well as your bread Recipes!!!
Yes, I have 😊
ruclips.net/video/92hx_Q53kFU/видео.html
I have to admit that I’ve been struggling with this. I have excellent results. My oven spring is finally what I’ve always been aiming for and my loafs are tender and delicious. The only thing missing is a more sour taste. I want it to be more tangy. I’m comparing this to store bought and I’ve read that some retail isn’t even real sourdough. They put scorbic acids or vinegar in to fool you into thinking it’s sourdough. I’ve been trying to use a more mature starter with mixed results. I couldn’t tell any difference, but my neighbor commented that it was more sour and I hadn’t told them of my goals. So, I’ll keep experimenting as well...
What do you call a “mature” starter? A starter that went past its peak when you add it to the dough? Thanks :)
@@JuliaVidile Mature from what I have read, is one that has been fed, expands and then recedes back down to its starting point. When I take “Scratch” out to feed him on bread day, he is very mature. Looks flat and not active. Your nose really can smell the vinegary scent. I have tried feeding that and not pouring any off. He responds and by the time he begins to recede back down again, my adylise (spelt wrong) of the flour is done and I add my starter (Scratch). Just did two loafs yesterday, but still not getting the tart taste I get from store bought. As mentioned, I’ve read that mass produced sourdough is generally made with various acids or vinegar to get that taste going. Hope this helps....
@@jimsjacob It does, thanks :) I follow the same process almost.
@foodgeek Sune, if I may ask: your starter is wheat or rye?
Wheat 😊
@@Foodgeek I have both. :-) rye is much more sour than wheat. Also I found out that mine wheat prefer high quality flour. Rye is more humble and it's happy with supermarket rye flour. XD My usual bread is rye/wheat 50:50.
Oooouuuiiii 🤣! Nice video as usual 🧡
Sune I have a question.
So I've followed the Sourdough for beginners recipe, I've done very well, and my sourdough starter just turned a year old! (your recipe btw.) My question is, now that I have a stable sourdough how can I increase the hydration? I feel I'm ready to challenge my Arthur (starter' s name), and my skills. 🤣😂
Please advice, and provide me a new hydration recipe. You would be proud if you were to see my loaves, also I'm at pro at scoring the ear!!! 😍
-Much love from Texas! 😘🇺🇸
You will need some flour that can take a higher hydration. You need to be able to get very good gluten development. You need to be able to shape with very little contact with the dough :) Those are the most important :)
I found exactly what YOU did.. it was not different in taste. I tried using a LARGE amount of starter that was very "sour" smelling.. but that really did not make much of an impact. I'm stumped...
This is the best way I've found so far:
How to make sourdough bread more sour | Part 3 | Foodgeek Baking
ruclips.net/video/XSczWjWOQBI/видео.html
@@Foodgeek thank you for your reply. I'll head to that link and see if I've already viewed it. appreciate your help.
@@Foodgeek thank you, I had NOT seen this video, I'll try this and come back in a week or so.
This result didn’t surprise me. My guess would be that feeding your Levin once at different hydration % doesn’t really give you the different character you were hoping for. I would think you need to change the starter % for many feeds to build the different character. So you would need 3 starters fed at different hydration % for at least 7 feedings.
Why 7? Do you have any documentation for that?
I converted it in one feeding and then I did 4 feedings of 1:10:10 at the target hydration :)
I didn’t know you did extra feeding at that %, missed when you said it on the video. I just figured that the sour will come from a different culture being boosted by that different environment. To me it makes sense that this would take time to build those cultures. But it sounds like you would have seen some difference by 4 feedings if there was going to be any.
neat video dude :) enjoyed it.
Your a Fender fan I see 🎸🤘🏽
I have an input. Your sound tends to become quieter at the end of your sentences making it quite difficult to hear, but if I bump up the volume the rest of the sentence and music becomes too loud. But thanks for the video!
I was very pleased with this results. I feel that it has vindicated me trying various methods to get my bread sour and failing with the online advice.
What do you mean 1 to 10 to 10
10 grams of starter, 100 grams of flour, 100 grams of water 😊
It seems the one made with 75% starter looked stickier than the other two, and it did not rise as well. My question is why was there an expectation that altering the hydration of the starter would affect the sourness of the bread? Great video, thanks
yeah, i was thinking the same thing about the 75% one, its completely counter-intuitive. i bet it has to do with the flour. as far as sourness, i think it has to do with pH balance. if there's less water in an otherwise same starter, the pH would be higher. but i think to actually sour the bread you have to do a long cold fermentation.
hey - for a proper, scientific study, you were interested in the effect of starter hydration, so you should have kept all other variables the same. did you account for the fact that you used a differe lame for each of the 3 breads? haha - just kidding - great work as always! one more (semi-serious) question - for the shot of you putting the pot lid onto the cutting board, is that the same shot you use for every video, or do you re-film it for each bread you bake?
Hahaha. I actually reshoot it! Now I am wondering why 🤣😂
@@Foodgeek yes - too funny - maybe I have just made your life a tiny bit easier!!
If the desired result is a more sour taste, retard the fermentation by placing the loaves in the refrigerator for at least 48 hours. Not only is it healthier but delicious
Sune, keep the guitar background. It tells us about you as a person, and a real person with a life!
It would be helpful to explain what the x percentage hydration actually means.....
Yeast poop is acetone.
What is the title of video 1 in this “make sourdough sour” series?
How to make your sourdough SOUR?
If you want more your bread taste more soure you have to put more starter in. Tested for you!😎
Wheeeeee!
This is fairly good news to me, because I’m not fond of much sourness. 😏
Nope no surprise but the dough texture was different
I'd like to know how to make it less sour, not more.
Less water = more acetic acid = more sour
More water = more lactic acid = less sour
Plus, more time fermenting, means more acid development.
Wheeeee! 😂
next video will be out as SUNE as it is possible ,,??????? Are you sure you did not do that on purpose ????
Sune your content is great, but I'd recommend you film where there aren't guitars isn't really thematic to a cooking channel.
It doesn't seem to hinder my channel growth 😊
@@Foodgeek That's good to hear, just was saying that would be a good growth area. Always room to grow and gain efficiency in style/theme
@@Foodgeek Don't change a thing 😊💕
Mmmh what is this strange black dot glitching at the top of your head during your introduction 🤔. 'Couldn't help but stare at it rather than you 😅.
Just a hole in the wall from something that previously hung there 😊
Wheeeeee!