How to make sourdough bread more sour | Part 3 | Foodgeek Baking
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- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2024
- So what is the secret of making really sour sourdough bread? That's what this third experiment in this series sets out to uncover. I finally found the secret.
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Thanks Sune. What a great experiment. I’m eager to try this for myself now.
great experiment sune!! i never thought of experimenting with parbaking to boost sourness. will have to try this method.
What an informative video! I really appreciate all the work that went into it. Your explanation of how starters are fed explains why my sourdough is more sour than most other I've tasted. But I love tart sourdough, so that's not a problem for me. 😉
Thanks this recipe looks yummy I love sourdough!
I've managed to figure out sour-sourdough to an extremely simple science. It's simply a matter of lowering how much starter you begin with and creating a longer fermentation time. That's it.
I ditched all timers and temperature calculations at this point. When normally I'd use 100g of starter and bulk for 6hours to reach doubling for two loaves , change that to 40g, or even 30g of starter and bulk for 16, 18, 36 hours for doubling. It helps to use a bulking container with marks on the side so you can watch where the progress is. You can leave it out on the counter if it's cool enough, otherwise leave it to bulk in the fridge for part of the time. The longer you drag the bulk out (through lower temperatures) the more sour the bread gets.
I'll fold once at the 8-hour mark and another at pre-shaping. There is no approach that I've found that is more lazy, more simple, and creates that perfect texture and sour taste like San Francisco sourdough.
I guess I'll have to try that out :) Is the gluten fine after 36 hours? :)
In case you (or anyone) would like specifics, here are the details.
- 700g water
- 40g starter (or less)
- 1000g bread flour
- 20g salt
- 4qt clear plastic cylindrical bulking bin with lid.
- mix completely in bulking container
- level dough and note height (2qts)
- If temperature is 73f or lower leave out, otherwise use ambient temperature and fridge to extend bulking time.
- bulk for 18+ hours, more equals more sour. 24-36 is almost perfect.
- Preshape when bulk is at 175% of original size.
- Bench rest and feel dough until optimal size and feel (about an hour for me).
- final shape and put in baskets, stitch underside.
- Can be baked immediately just fine or put in fridge.
- Score, put in preheated dutch oven on parchment, mist with water.
- Bake @ 450-460f for 25min lid on, 450-460f lid off.
- Let cool before slicing.
I hope this helps add to the science. Thanks again for all you do Foodgeek!
@@Jonas_Fox Do you have pictures of how your loaves turn out? I always end up with flat loaves, or impossible to shape dough if I allow them to bulk ferment that long and increase in volume that much, even with cool temperatures.
I also reduce the inoculation in an effort to extend the bulk. Hadn't considered doing a partial ambient, partial fridge bulk, or lowering the bulk temp in the fridge and finishing via ambient. I'll have to give this a try.
What is your starter based on? Wheat, whole wheat, Rye, strong white flour, bread flour, a blend? Care to share?
@@Foodgeek I've found that reducing my inoculation from 20% down to 3% does increase the sourness. I can keep the dough in my fridge for at least 5 days without harming the gluten. I haven't tried leaving it longer than that. Perhaps an experiment is due.
I have not had time to test the practical effect, but I have a hypothesis that salt in a sourdough starter, levain, or pre-ferment can increse sourness by favoring lactobaceria fermentation. Which is how sauerkraut is possible.
For sauerkraut I have good results with 2% salt per water weight (added water, and cabbage is 92% water ) although that usually requires about 3-5 weeks of fermenting at 15c/60f
I may reduce this to 1% or 0.5% for bread starter.
I had this exact same issue this weekend. Ran out of time to brown, and finished the day after. Gorgeous and tasty.
Now that you mention this, it dawns on me that my most perfect amount of sour , was by this making this “accident”. Atleast at the time, thought it was one & now I see why.. for me, the most fun of it all is the challenge! Thnx
Very cool!
Who even thinks of this. Just pure brilliance! Good job!!
Interesting 🧐 and informative! So I know I should probably be feeding my starter a little differently to get more of the sour taste and wait to brown it a little later. Maybe bake in the morning and brown it before supper time… and don’t squish the bread when taking its temperature 😁
Thanks Sune!
I see that several others have had the same question come to mind that I have had. "How is this cooking process making the final loaf more sour?" I'm not a chemist, but I've not heard of the "sour" acid breaking down at a temperature above 200°F and reducing the overall sourness of the loaf.
I watched a Proof bread video yesterday (4/29) on making Khorasan sourdough and the one item mentioned of note is that the sourdough yeast is killed at temps above 130°F. This is what makes the additional sourness you are achieving, with the par cooking method, very interesting.
I've been trying to raise the level of sourness in my sourdough loaves for some time now. I mix my starter at 1:1:1 or less (1: .7 : .7) I've even mixed it at 2:1:1 to get it more sour. The finished product seldom has a sourness to it, let alone a sourness of a Classic San Francisco sourdough.
I look forward to giving this "par cooking" a try. (my starter is whole wheat based).
It seems like a combination of those two methods can make it work :)
On the 24 hour loaf, did it remain on the counter, or was it refrigerated?
Awesome video Sune :-)
Interesting experiment. I’m going to make a batch tomorrow and I’ll bake one as per my standard process and I’ll use the 24hr rest between the steam bake and the browning bake for the second. I won’t change my starter feeding ratio (1:4:4) because I don’t want to add another variable in the test.
Thanks for this experiment, Sune. I have some friends who like a strong sour note so they’ll be good judges.
If you want to to be noticeably more sour, you need to build a more sour starter :)
The way I make my bread super sour is by feeding my sourdough starter as rarely as I can without it dieing. Every 36 hours or so. And also how much starter I use. For an ultra sour loaf I use 30% inoculation and sourdough that has been fed every 36 hours for a week before using it. I get a very overpowering sour taste and I'd say it's a matter of taste if you like it or not
How long to you bulk ferment and proof, and are you cold proofing? I just baked my last loaf at 30% inoculation, cold proofed for 36 hours. But I got no extra sourness than a 20% inoculation and 18 hour cold proof I did the previous time. In fact the 20% and 18 hour loaf tasted more sour to me. I just don't get it.🤷♂
@@paulwarren6062 I bulk until it has risen 25 to 30% and then I cold proof until the next morning where I bake them. Try feeding your sourdough rarely. Once every 36 hours (make sure u have a backup in case it dies) do that for a week and you should develop sourness to your starter. Also the Ph lowers the more you cold proof, 5 to 6 days would be ideal but don't expect much oven spring. My family doesn't like the sourness so now that it's really warm in the kitchen I use 10% starter and I feed it the moment it has risen to it's peak, every 8 hours for 2 days before starting the process of mixing the dough.
is there a reason why you use 30% inoculation
@user-ju9nm2qo9w you don't want it to rise too fast. The more sourdough it has the faster it rises and it can get out of control. I've found that in the winter it needs 30% in order to rise properly. In the summer u need 20%, 15% and even 10% if it's really hot outside. Also with less sourdough it doesn't get a very sour taste.
Thank you for your quick response! I am new to breadbaking and am still wondering a few things. Does using less sourdough starter make it more or less sour? I thought less starter makes it more sour because it needs longer to proof? Or is it different using an extra sour starter
Also do you bulk ferment in the fridge or at room temperature and do you recommend stretching and folding during the bulk ferment. Thanks again@@dennisgrammenos1232
*Oh Boy* ... I hit myself with a big curveball... I introduced "Organic Beehive A/P Unbleached Malted Flour" to my starter... It got real bubble but the starter did not really double in size, but floated well when I put 100g into water and my mix. I did my regular stretch n fold then put it in basket and waited a lot more time than usual, got to be bed time so put in fridge then took out when I woke up and let it sit 6-7 hrs and no rise, so put back in fridge 3hrs then baked that night and it didn't rise or split open much... *WHAT HAPPEND ???* I'm now refeeding my starter w/Organic AP and hoping to get a loaf ASAP.
When I don't have time to get my starter as sour as I'd like and I'm in a hurry I cheat and use encapsulated citric acid. It doesn't mess with the fermentation in any way and it releases the citric acid during baking when the temp gets over 66C / 150F. The citric acid is encapsulated in cottonseed oil and comes in tiny little beads. It also makes an interesting pattern in the crust with little dark brown speckles.
I liked what you have to say here up until the point that you said the citric acid is encapsulated in cottonseed oil. Seed oils are known to be inflammatory and detrimental to health. It seems to be counterintuitive to make a "healthy" bread and add an ingredient that is carried in an unhealthy oil. Glad it works for you.
@@kenlane688 I understand the concern and am generally conscious of what I ingest as well. For me it's a shortcut when I've blown my time window to have a loaf ready at a specific time. Most of the time I keep it au naturale. Maybe there's one out there made with coconut oil 🤷♂️
Hi Sune, I've been learning from you for a couple of years now. Thanks very much for your work. A question about this video - how do you store the bread between the first stage of baking (the first 35 minutes) and the later 10 minute browning stage? In the fridge? On the counter?
On the counter 😊
After seeing the bread code episode on par baking I gave it a try. I let the bread cool down to room temperature. I didn’t detect any more sour flavor. The one big thing was they the crumb was a lot moister. I have been trying to get a taste like the San Francisco sourdough since I have lived my adult life in the SF Bay Area.
I proof my bread at 75 F as I have read that acetic acid production accuses at temperatures below 86F.
Was your starter sour at all when you baked the bread? :)
@@Foodgeek sort of. But not sure. I store the starter at 65 F over night before I mix the dough. I will try raising the over night temp before mixing the dough.
@@dfhepner So at warmer temperatures the starter becomes more sour? I read on a website that keeping the starter in the fridge makes it more sour. This is a bit confusing to me.
Do you think it's necessary to use a very sour starter, seeing as your other test with starters seemed to not make bread much more sour. Could it just be the baking process, or do you really feel it's a combination of both? Thanks
I'm not sure I understand what is going on here. Are some bacteria actually surviving 200 degree F and go one producing acids between the two bakings. That seems way higher than bacteria should be able to survive. What other processes could be causing this?
There are some bacteria, called thermophiles, that do survive very high temps. The hot springs and geysers in Yellowstone harbor some.
@@paulzsoka9037 Yes, But that doesn't really apply here.
I’ve been hoping some more discussion was going to happen. I agree with Adam… I was thinking the same thing as he pointed out.
I've thought about forgetting time as a variable (other than its existence) and monitoring only the rising of the dough. When I stopped the rise at 50%-75% rather than let it rise to 2X, 3X or more (when it would start collapsing) I started getting better loaves.
I like to use the scraps method where you store 100g-200g starter in the refrigerator with no feeding UNTIL you actually use it ... which could be in 2months or 3months. The only danger here is letting it dry out. It doesn't kill the starter BUT it becomes difficult to handle.
Now to the SOUR parameter.
I wonder if lowering the amount of starter, thus increasing the rise time, would result in a more sour loaf. Have you done that experiment yet?
This double-bake method interests me considering the results.
Once, I was doubling my batch for two loaves. I weighed out everything the night before, and fed the starter. In the morning, I realized that I only prepared enough starter for one loaf. I thought to myself, “screw it.” And made the double batch with only the starter I had. So, 10% inoculation, rather than 20%. The resulting loaves were so delicious and sour that I changed my default recipe to the 10% starter. It just took a while to bulk.
I just baked using a 10 day unfed starter out of the fridge. I took it out, fed it, and let it double (6 hours). I figured after 10 days in the fridge my next bake would be extra sour. I even cold proofed for 36 hours, double what I normally do. But to my disappointment, I got no extra sourness. In fact it tasted less sour. I used 30% inoculation, btw. I know that more than usual but still, I figured 10 day starter in the fridge, and a 36 hour proof would give me a nice zesty punch. Nope.
I’m curious about something here trying to make mine more sour without a pre-bake and finish later. Doing this two years now mostly flawlessly the past year in terms of aesthetics, I ran into this article on brod and taylor’s site suggesting, “Many sourdoughs can rise to 2½ times their starting volume and some will do great with a threefold rise.”
Based on prior experience I get good looking loaves and ears when shaping and retarding between 50-100% rise during bulk. I wonder what would happen if we let it double in volume, punch down/squeeze out the larger bubbles, then allow it to rise again maybe ~25% before the shaping/retarding 🤔
The explanation is that in the 24 h bread you have not evaporated the volatile acetic acid. The crumb is more wet because it cooled completely and then, in the second part of the baking process, it did not reach a high enough temperature, while the crust did brown completely.
Do you grind your own flour? I find it makes a big difference in flavor.
Sune, I'm in the process of using this technique. But one question: how do I tell when my starter is very, very sour? I have fed it 4-5 times at your recommended 1:1:1, let it blossom and feed it again. What am I looking (or smelling) for to have the starter as you describe? My quest since I began making sour dough bread 6 years ago was "sour" and "tangy". I'm looking forward to the outcome of using this technique. Thanks, Gene
It should both smell and taste sour 😊
Love your vids. Have you moved from a 25% to 50% rise during BF for your standard experiment recipe?
My fermentation experiment showed that the zone for good fermentation was between 25-50% and oven spring started to suffer above 50% :)
@@Foodgeek Hi Sune!! Is the 25-50% for high hydration doughs specifically? I was experimenting with hydration and found that a 70-80% rise on 65-68% hydration recipe gave the best results, but on higher hydrations, 75%+, it would result in overproofed bread. Any thoughts on that?
@@felipepeloggia That might very well be true. I guess I should do another experiment :)
Do you have a ratio for adding vital gluten to raise the protein in all purpose flour.?
I can do you one better. I made an online calculator: foodgeek.dk/en/vital-wheat-gluten-calculator/ 😁
Please make kombucha sourdough (e.g. Replace the water and maybe starter too) I created a starter with kombucha and the starter had a great kombucha smell, but it disappeared when cooked. I wonder whether it would be possible to bake that kombucha awesomeness into bread
When I tried, my starter never worked. Not sure why. Maybe I brew my kombucha just far far too strong? Within hours the liquid would always separate and settle on top no matter how well incorporated, and it’d just go rancid and smell like that rancid cheesy smell, when you know a ferment had gone VERY wrong.
Sune: I really appreciate your wonderful videos! I've found consistent home baking success with your detailed guidance. Question: I know this is a bit outside the lines for sourdough purists like yourself... But have you experimented with adding a little food-grade citric acid / "SOUR SALT"? I have not yet tried this myself and would appreciate your thoughts and/or experiment findings. Thanks! *Mark G. in Hawai`i*
I haven't but I am sure it works. I'm by no means a purist, I am a pragmatist, but in my head, it should be possible to create a sour sourdough bread just by using fermentation :)
@@Foodgeek Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this. I'll give citric acid a try, following the multiple test loaves utilizing the differing proportional formula format you employ so well. If worthy of reporting out, I'll let you know my findings. Best wishes to you.
Thanks ❤️
How i can bake sour bread less sour? Thank you
I'm surprised making sourdough "sour" is such a mystery in this day in age. People have been baking bread for thousands of years. But in my quest to make actual "sour" bread, I can't seem to find a definitive answer. I always thought making sourdough bread was just simply using sourdough rather than yeast. But I've come to learn that, that isn't true. Sourdough adds better flavor, but it's not that "sour" punch I was expecting. I just baked a loaf that cold proofed for 36 hours and there was no notable extra sourness than a 18 hour proof. Which was disappointing. The funny thing is the 18 hour loaf seemed more sour to me. How do you explain that? I can't find a solid answer, which is strange to me in 2022. I figured by now all the methods and techniques for baking would be cracked. But a lot of videos and websites I read seem to conflict with each other. Some say keep the starter at room temp, others say keep in the fridge. Some say use a liquid starter, others say use a sniff one, ect. And now I learn I have to double bake? Is the a common method in professional bakeries? To pro bakers have this same problem making their sourdough "sour" also?
So it seems like the hypothesis is that the bacteria survives up to 200F and then goes on producing acid. You don’t have to worry about over proofing due to excess acid breaking down the gluten because the rise and oven spring is behind us. Then the bacteria is killed in the browning bake.
Is that the idea?
Pretty much and I liked this idea of being able to have nice oven spring AND sour taste :)
Not sure what the actual chemical explanation is :)
I am no expert and really not a fan of sour taste that slaps you in the face, seems the complex flavour of bread becomes a one note wonder. Having said that I have always found my bread has a more sour note the next day, my thought on this has been that as moisture evaporates the acids are a larger percentage of the crumb. I wonder if this theory could apply here as well. I have no idea if I am just whistling in the wind or if there is something to it.
That makes sense. I guess theoretically the bread should be become more salty as well., using this logic :)
I tried your suggestion of baking the 2nd bake 24 hours later but my loaf was no more sour 😕, I have never been able to get a sour loaf so I had high hopes with trying this… I am going to try and but this time maybe do the 2nd bake a couple days later…should I leave my first baked bread on the counter or put in the fridge for the 2 days? Maybe 3 days? I have even tried leaving by dough in the fridge for 2 days before doing the first bake, no sour taste😕…..so frustrating….other then that my bread crumb and crust I have been happy with…..help!
To amplify the sour you can make a really sour starter, but feeding it 1:1:1 then leave it until it's really sour, and then keep feeding a couple of times also 1:1:1.
Then when you make the dough, then go for a higher proportion of starter: 40%. And then still do this trick :)
@@Foodgeek okay, I will give it my best try….thank you!
Hey Sune, how about a preview of your guitar chops. Shame to let those beautiful axes just hang there!
Sourdough Blues - Overcoming the baking of a frisbee - Instrumental
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Just use less starter and longer fermentation time to make bread more sour.
How about an experiment less sour? Thank you
It doesn't need an experiment, because that's what I do all of time. Feed your starter at high proportion (1:100:100) and use at peak :)
What's the reason for this? Why would it be more sour? 93c should kill off any bacteria, so I assume it is something to do with not evaporating some of the acidic by-products off completely and letting them sit in the dough matrix within. But, if there is nothing actively creating more sour compounds within, why would it get more sour the longer you leave it?
Good question, which I don't have any answer for :) I went by observation on this one :)
@@Foodgeek I definitely notice that my older loaves (reaching their "toast only" stage) are more sour than when first baked. Particularly with rye, but also with a wheat/sorghum blend with which I experimented recently. I can't quite figure it out myself, but I am sure it is probably the same mechanism, just more accelerated and pronounced in your experiment.
My leading theory is it's a breakdown reaction of some sort, and note that toasting sourdough evens it out a bit- so there may be a "sweet spot", that by baking it at a low temperature, you create compounds, but don't break them down by getting it well over 200c. under that the dough will be uncooked, and over it, you'll begin breaking down the organics that make it sour. You'd need some real advanced tech to suss out exactly what acids and organic compounds are present. It's probably like maple syrup, where it's such a chaotic mix of biochemistry that it would take an entire lab decades to begin understanding it.
Like how we had no clue what made san francisco sourdough was a fructolactobasilius, snacking on maltose and other things a bit differently, till rather recently.
Hi I want to make my bread less sour.?????? It is so sour I taste it in my mouth all day. The recipe I have from a friend calls for 200g. Sourdough starter, San Francisco sourdough starter, 479g All purpose Flour (10% protein), 335g. Warm water.????????
Loved your video series and your method to cut through the bs and old wives tales. Unfortunately while we love the benefits of SD bread, the only thing we do not like is the sour notes. Maybe if I play your videos backwards I can get no sour. Actually Wild Yeast Water seems to achieve the results of the SD process without sour notes.
In my experience, a well fed sourdough starter used at its peak, and no cold ferment of the bread dough result to a no sour bread.
@@a.papath Thank You for the tip.
My daughter and I like a gentle sourness in the bread, but my wife doesn't like it sour at all. I add about 3% to 5% sugar to my dough and get no sourness at all. If you want to try it, you can use sweet liquids like honey or barley malt syrup as well as table sugar or anything else like that. I usually calculate the difference in water when using honey or syrup, but it's such a small amount, it probably doesn't even matter.
@@SuperDavidEF Good tip! I have been using Wild Yeast water, but I'd rather just have one SD starter to keep happy. Honey sure makes a world of difference in 100% freshly milled Whole Wheat. More and more I'm shifting towards SD and 100% Whole Wheat milled less than an hour before making the dough. The fresh milled really accelerates the SD process over store bought.
What is the science behind this?
When I go for sour sourdough, the bacteria (apparently) eat the gluten and the dough won’t rise. Probably I’m doing something wrong.
What happened to all your hair? Are You on chemo or something?.
Just losing my hair 😊 I'm fine 😊