Twitter gets offended if you exist in the REAL world, so it's not surprising tbh that said more folks should be ignoring that cesspool platform (even mocking or exposing the bad birds kinda plays into their hands... or erm talons I guess?).
The sonic fan base is so toxic. They just can't handle different opinions on topics and throw a fit if you don't agree with there world view. Its hard to look at frontiers objectively because any downside you point out will get you so much hate and excuses from fanboys.
My theory (from what i've been seeing) is that Sonic Team is trying to morph both the boost and adventure formula with Frontiers, all they need to do is add the spin dash since we already have the drop dash and that move has momentum
@@sonicjason255 nono hear me out, the boost will work like a run from BOTW, its limited but in an open world it gets you places fast, and the spindash/drop dash could be for gaining momentum or reach places you couldnt with the boost, it makes sense right?
Unfortunately if that were the case they've failed miserably because it's almost entirely boost and just ignoring the Adventure formula. There was way more momentum in Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations than there is in Frontiers.
Actually, Generations, Colors and Unleashed had some momentum, but boosting made Sonic reach top speed instantly and infinitely. It was there, it just took a backseat
But slope physics were also there too, we were just going at such a high speed it’s hard to notice, unleashed is without a doubt the fastest sonic game to date
Personally, while I don't think momentum is necessary to make a Sonic game fun, it can make a game have more weight into it with proper balancing, which is what I believe what Sonic Team's going for, a proper balance between the Boost and Adventure gameplay styles in an open-zone
Except it doesn't have it, I'd argue Frontiers is more of it's own thing plus the boost formula...hell, calling it "Adventure gameplay" is in itself wrong, since...what is there that's "Adventure" about it? Levels that aren't hallways? That's just silly. Like, I myself really don't care for the game, but I rather people see how it has actual combat for once as an indicator of something new, rather than throwing around old terms that don't fit, for the sake of proving it's good in any way, you dig?
Him still being motivated by Maria wouldn’t be accurate to his character though the whole ending of shadow the hedgehog has him deciding to stop being controlled by his past and do his own thing
Another part of the controversy is over the name. Momentum is simply mass × velocity, so technically even boosting on a flat plane builds momentum. Heck, the creator of the Bumper Engine had said we should stop calling it "momentum" and go with something like "slope physics" or "pinball physics".
I myself desperately wanna call it slope physics or JUST physics, but because Sonic fans literally turned momentum into a buzzword, I and many others are just kinda forced to use it in discussion to remain cohesive. Thankfully everyone knows what momentum means in this context.
As a kid I could never really grasp why I enjoyed just moving around with Sonic in the Mystic Ruins in Sonic Adventure. I later found out that it was momentum that made that seemingly mundane gameplay loop so fun and engaging. I think the Boost games really lost something special here. I suspect it's tougher to implement given the much larger scale of stages in the new games? But I agree that the perfect Sonic game could very well be one that integrates both.
Well we'll well it seems we have even more than n common then I thought. I've been playing my own rare hunters set with friends online just because it's so much fun.
Funny thing is,Sonic frontiers does have some momentum in it. It's not adventure physics but it's still there.The fact we are given better control over Sonic as well as some momentum here and there it seems Sonic is going back to his roots even if it's just a little bit
Imo, momentum is what makes me really feel like i'm controlling sonic and it's what makes it fun. experimenting with it would be amazing in an open world game
Great vid... One thing I wanna touch on, is the fact that the thing ppl don't seem to understand is that the boost gameplay's "momentum" is in keeping the flow of speed, rather than physics
@@MarkerMurker they're not gone, there's just no way Sonic would be affected by physics with the boost going down, I mean, he literally glues to walls and you expect gravity to affect him going down?
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 Yes. Sonic Adventure did it. Sonic GT did it. Spark The Electric Jester did it. Wall running was directly tied to the momentum you have and it's used as a game mechanic
I think another reason why the topic of momentum is at a fever pitch right now is because for a Lange number of fans sonic frontiers seem like almost gonna the perfect sonic game. Open environment, good graphics, a story that could actually entertaining with, people behind that story who actually care about sonic. All that would be needed to make it the definitive sonic game in the eyes of these fans is momentum. So far it seems like there will be very little of that in frontiers so that’s why people are so heated about the topic and why comes up so much that other are sick of hearing it.
The reason I don't like discourse about momentum in Sonic is that people don't seem to understand what the word means. Momentum refers to the quantity of motion a moving body has, and the inertia of its movements. Mario 64 has momentum. The boost games have momentum; otherwise the stomp would be pointless because you could just go neutral on the analog stick to stop midair movement. Sonic 06 was the only Sonic game to not have momentum; characters simply changed coordinates based on your inputs. What I think people are referring to when they talk about momentum in Sonic games is "pinball physics", which is a certain set of forces that apply to an object which influence its movement. The classic games did it the best, the adventure games were decent but not perfect translations, and the boost games mostly dropped the idea. But momentum itself never really stopped being a thing, except for that one time (don't worry 06 I still love you).
Let me know what you think about momentum? Should Sonic games be utilizing it, or are they better off without it? Also, huge thank you to Munk Pack for sponsoring today's video! Go to thld.co/munkpack_chaomix_1022 and use code CHAOMIX to get 20% off your first purchase!
Yeah I kinda agree with Tails_Forever. Fans can make fan games with heavy momentum but I don't think Sega will bring heavy momentum gameplay back anytime soon or never.
Honestly think sonic rush did it best, the game is actually pretty fun to try without boost, and the game is actually just as fast without it because it utilities momentum to it's max still my favorite sonic game to this day.
I really feel like everyone didn't play the same games I did. The boost games absolutely still have typical sonic physics, its just not noticeable because of the level design de-emphasizing it Sonic Colors for example, I've done some cool skips and red ring grabs by boost jumping off slopes to get insane air time, same tricks can be pulled off in unleashed and gens, its just that the game isn't designed for that
thats what im sayin. the only mainline 3d sonic to not have some form of "momentum" is sonic 06, which literally didnt, your speed and jumps were static, isolated from the terrain you run on.
@@Invalourrr-vb3xo I think it did have momentum with the spindash and blue gem but the game's physics were so bugged in things like loops that it makes you think there is none at all
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 again, those were static speed increases, the spindash and blue gem all had a hard cap on speed. I don't think the spindash going down a hill built up any speed, it was changed in p06 on pc though.
@@Invalourrr-vb3xo it did with the spin dash but you can barely see a difference with the blue gem since y'know, it makes you go basically the highest speed possible without reaching mach speed
I think the use of the drop dash and boost in frontiers is a really good idea. You can go super fast down hill with the drop dash but not lose the speed either on flat surfaces or up hill with the boost. I could see a great mix of ability usage while moving through the world
I dont dislike people saying momentum, what I dislike is when they use the term to refer to any number of things that arent momentum, such as acceleration, building up speed going down slopes, jumping higher from slopes with speed. people tend to use momentum as a blanket term for literally any and all things when a better word is physics, specifically slope ones. Also, Physics based gameplay may not have been the focus, but it was still present in colors, generations, unleashed, and even lost world to an extent. running up a loop at a slow speed in any of those games would result in slowly falling back (when the loops arent automated that is). like in colors for instance, theres still a hand full of sections where boosting off a slope and jumping can send you higher and be used as a shortcut, same with unleashed and generations. So while not the focus, its present. best example of this I can find is honestly in sonic colors ds, which had some really fun ways to mess around and skip some slower platforming sections with jumps off slopes.
Sonic games need innovation. That's it, that's my whole take. I think a lot of vocal Sonic fans are fans of the characters, the art style, the stories, many don't seem to be fans of the games themselves at all.
Which is exactly what frontiers is(innovation for the series), couldn't be more sick of people whining that the game wasn't designed the way they want it too be
When you see how a large portion of the most well-known Sonic games turn out (since games like Rush Adventure tend to be overlooked), I can't exactly blame those fans lmao
I've always been of the mindset that Sonic's speed could be portrayed in so many different ways. We have this highly flexible character that can and has worked in almost any setting he's been put into. Why are we limiting and locking him into this one box, without letting him explore and redefine what speed means for the series. My favorite example to draw from is how we know that Shadow is considered to be fast, but why not experiment with that? I think it would be interesting to have a game where he plays like Vergil from Devil May Cry V, another character whom people consider to be fast. the term could mean so many things for this series. I feel Sonic Team should experiment a bit. Just because Sonic is fast doesn't mean he should constantly be running at breakneck speeds. There are other more creative and fantastical way his speed can be portrayed.
As a person who grew up with sonic colors, and is currently playing sonic adventure 1. I would really like to see how these formulas could work together
The momentum physics in Adventure 1 are not particularly significant because the spindash is just as instantaneous as the boost in Unleashed, the difference being that the spindash actually never runs out. There are more opportunities to take advantage of Sonic's speed on slopes in Adventure because the level design is more open.
Boosting off a hill won't send you flying! That's why they made auto ramps and colored rings! However, spin-dashing down a slope will push your speed faster and rolling up a hill at high speeds will shoot you into the air! However, they could add that feature to boosting, they just don't want to for whatever reason.
@@Zaylio Funnily enough I saw that soon after I made this comment! It doesn't change how much the game did wrong, but it does give it some points at least Maybe that disappointing mess of a game will be viewed as a good introductory speedrun game in the future
@@supercyclone8342 Boosting off a hill does send you flying. There's a mod for Sonic Generations that removes all automation. Try playing with it and you'll see it immediately at the first ramp in Green Hill that the game is basically unplayable now, because Sonic's launch height becomes super inconsistent based on the angle you enter the air from (a problem that doesn't exist in Adventure games because Sonic is much slower, uses rotational turning physics instead of a strafing model and the level design is less corridory). Those dash pads at the hill are there not just to set the correct angle, but to slow you down too (because Sonic is sent flying way the hell up with normal boost speed)
@@M4Dbrat Yeah you're right. I should've aimed my comment more specifically at Frontiers. However, part of good momentum is building levels around it and fine tuning the physics so that the effect is just right. So even if you slapped a momentum-based character controller into Sonic Frontiers, it wouldn't be much better. Btw, I do like boost gameplay. I just see tons of potential in gameplay like Sonic GT
What is important is how well Mario 64 does when it comes to giving you freedom on how you play the game. You can get stars out of sequence if you are skilled enough. Hence why Mario Odyssey went back to it's 3D roots as well by giving players the freedom of playing a stage enough to the point where they feel satisfied and move on. Zelda focused on that aspect too, and now breath of the wild is one of the most critically acclaimed games in the series. Sonic Frontiers needs momentum because it allows players the freedom on how to approach obstacles. If you give them a sandbox, the player will try to find a way to build a castle. And each castle will be different from one person to another.
I get the idea of having things to do all the time to keep the players interest up, but that can be done too much to the point where it seems mindless when done wrong. Or it could stress people out that they feel like they constantly have to do something and they cant just take a breath and enjoy the atmosphere. Because as boring as it looks to some, to others it looks beautiful. Yeah maybe its no, i dont know, (insert open world game thats really popular and breathtaking), but it still looks stunning enough that some may just want to take in the sights. Especially in the tutorial area because HOT DIGGITY DOG! The view looks nice down the cliff with all the water. I think the nothingness that exists between each thing to do allows the player to take their time on things. This is a Sonic game where you can play at your own pace, and maybe thats why momentum isnt so much a factor. Or boosting with the ability to one hit enemies. They didnt want the new players to always worry about not making it up slopes so much so they put a bit of a damper on it perhaps. This might not be a valid (though highly a subjective word) concern nor one that new sonic fans have, but we have to consider SEGA is taking sonic in a new direction to appeal to those new fans. Its not just for hardcore gamer sonic fans only anymore, but it was always supposed to appeal to plenty of audiences (though some games were clearly meant for specific audiences). It seems more oriented towards just plain exploration and combat, with a chunk of boost levels left in it though those may be lost to time in the future since theres not a great new direction they can take that formula. But where we dont get momentum, we get a LOT of abilities even so. Sonic now has his lightspeed dash back in his base moveset, the bounce bracelet, a drop dash that actually helps your speed downhill, homing attack thats not mapped to jump so it can be done from the GROUND, drifting (in some places in the game still dont know how thats gonna work), sidestepping as well as dodges in the air, a counter and parry, and a few options for using the boost! The normal one, or the other two leaked ones But as someone who LOVES sonic adventure for its creativity in how you traverse the levels, I wholeheartedly agree that such would have been a cool idea built around the momentum. So I get why that would be cool After all this is basically modern sonic adventure with the presentation we are getting. A hub world with a heavy focus on nature like adventure (aside from the other two areas being the city and ship), levels locked behind loading zones though not required, bosses in hub world rather than special rendered areas like in adventure... Its not 1 to 1, but it seems similar enough since adventure felt the most 3d (adventure 2 seemed kinda like a hallway with its premium sonic and shadow levels) to me other than heroes and the..other two hated games that followed it plus lost world Finally I understand automation sounds boring with how the grind rails are everywhere but I much prefer that to something a lot harder to consistently do, like keeping your speed on walls and not awkwardly falling off them flame core 06 style. And plenty of newcomers that I cannot name because I do not know any here personally would probably like the simplicity too (im saying it in a shaky voice so that way im not being bashed for making untrue statements on little basis), but that would take out the challenge and thus the argument of automation comes forth once more. Though there is rail switching so its not too boring, and you can just jump off the rail too youre not locked on it. Its hard for a middle ground to be achieved between those who have loved sonic through the good and bad and those coming into sonic for the first time. A new idea to sonic fans is hard to swallow sometimes I would think because its been messed up due to SEGA being dumb with not taking enough time to make it work, or sometimes "messed up" whereas to a new sonic fan they wouldnt mind it too much. These ideas of how sonic games should be done take a lot of unpacking but I think frontiers is trying its best to do what the movies did: DRAW IN NEW PEOPLE instead of trying to please only the existing people. No hate intended towards existing sonic fans during any era of his life in this earth
I’m a 2000s kid, so I don’t have that nostalgic biased to want the momentum. For me, the boosting always felt like you were really going at “super Sonic speed”. You’re forced to react to things faster, and I feel like if used properly really is a great mechanic. However I also know that it can make things too easy…looking at you, first Shadow Stage in Sonic Forces where I literally boosted over the map. Looking at you. There needs to be a balance between boosting and momentum. My approach would be having him build up momentum, and THEN being able to boost! That way it keeps the magic of both worlds!
Having momentum based platforming is hardly a sonic only thing. Especially nowadays. There’s even a section of Xenoblade chronicles about it (specifically an ice region). And Mario used it a bunch too. Especially in super Mario world, Mario 64, sunshine and odyssey.
Speak for yourself, I really enjoy simply blasting off with max rings in Frontiers, sure the slopes and ways they launch me is great (and I definitely think that should continue) but at times I simply enjoy just going fast. I really think that what should be aimed for in the future is a kind of middle ground, Sonic is a lot more powerful than when he was younger so it kinda makes sense that he could make his own speed. Rather than the physics focusing on momentum, I think they should be what they originally were, gravity. Actually another thing to take note of is something that Al The Boi said in one of his videos: "Sonic should be to movement, what Dante is to combat." Something like that sounds really fun.
Technically, ALL platformers NEED momentum. Mario has more momentum than Forces Sonic. The feedback shouldn't say "Momentum: Yes or No?", it's a question of is this momentum enough? Should it be more and or better? I strongly believe the answer is yes. Momentum is just the force an object (Sonic) has once the opposing force (player input) stops exerting (lets go of the stick). You are referring to Slope Physics. Not momentum. ALL platformers have momentum
To clarify: I would love for slope physics to return also. but they are a different mechanic than momentum, of which ALL sonic games have, including boost sonic, it's just that classic sonic has A TON of momentum with slope physics
5:19 Actually this is false. The reason Sonic is a hedgehog is because Naka needed a way for Sonic to attack and jump at the same time to keep his Single-Button Gameplay system, which made Yasuhara suggest a spinning motion. Sonic is a hedgehog and spins/rolls to make it so he can attack while moving in a single smooth action. Momentum and the interaction with the terrain was made a thing independant of this. It didn't really matter whether Sonic rolled or was a hedgehog or not for it. Overall, the games that have this element to the gameplay tend towards being my favorite, but I have to admit, people tend to almost religioufy it to an extremely toxic degree. It's basically become this thing where people don't even have an actual argument or statement over why it's presence is needed or good most of the time. It's just sort of this 'truism" people judge the merit of games on. I also think it isn't as simple as ""take any Sonic game and add momentum and it just becomes a better game". It's a very surface level look at the mechanic and its implementation into level design, the effects it has or even how it has actually mattered historically in regards to the gameplay of the games that had it. Overall, Great video.
Seriously, the level to which people treat Momentum as God is annoying, I've had people say that Boost is bad because it isn't the "core" of Sonic like they think Momentum is. Also I remember hearing that Speedrunning and replayability are what Sonic was built on and that this was probably said by Yuji Naka, but I can't find a source on that. I think I found the Yuji Naka interview that you're probably quoting, specifically the part about why Sonic is a Hedgehog. It goes "However if a Rabbit does a somersault attack, it's just going to hurt itself, right. We thought it would be better to have an animal with a hard shell or spines. Two possibilities came up: an armadillo or a Hedgehog, but the hedgehog won out because it was faster."
Thank you for saying this. This irks as much as when people say sonic is about momentum, when he’s not. All of the advertising for sonic back in the 90s was about his speed, heck sonic was built on the principle of going fast.
I don’t really think sonic needs momentum all of the time. I think a sonic game that builds around other features is a cool way to create a game, however I do enjoy momentum physics. I’d love to see a return of it but like I say with a lot of other games, I think its important to see what the developers vision is first and then build opinions on whether it was a good idea or not. Frontiers is clearly a game to test the waters for something much bigger in the future. Sega actually seems to be listening to us now so I think its important to express what we think is good for the franchise when games like this come out
Momentum alone wouldn't make the perfect Sonic game for me. What I want above anything else is precise and responsive movement with intricate and enganging/challenging level design and platforming. Lots of verticality and twists and turns to keep you on your toes, rather than just holding forward for most of the game. Momentum would be the icing on that cake.
Momentum is important and I do agree that there’s a lot of untapped gameplay potential there, but I also think that Sonic doesn’t necessarily need it to have good games. The beauty of this franchise, for me personally, is that Sonic gameplay can be different with each new game. Obviously that comes with the downside of occasionally not liking a game, but I think it has more positives than negatives tbh. The variety of the Sonic franchise is amazing, and it extends beyond the games into the cartoons, comics, and even movies now. Also, we ain’t just gonna sit here and act like Sonic still doesn’t have a hint of momentum gameplay even in games where it’s not the focus. The boost games still have lots of stuff you can experiment with in terms of slope jumps and other cool tricks that you might find in other Sonic games. One of my favorite things to do in the modern games is to stomp into a half pipe and watch Sonic slide along the ground at top speed cuz the speed from the stomp transferred into the speed of the slide because of the half pipe. Of course, it’s no longer the focus of these games, but hey Sonic Frontiers is making it more of a focus by having the drop dash in 3D and 2D while also being able to roll in 2D sections. It definitely needs some work, but I see Frontiers as a stepping stone towards something a lot more momentum heavy and free flowing. And I don’t think the player controllers of Unleashed onward are incapable of going cool slope tricks and running through loops without being scripted. I just think Sonic Team thinks more mainstream gamers would just want to get a lot of speed for free rather than spend the time learning a physics system. There are a lot of people who have played the Classics and aren’t hardcore fans of the series and they simply didn’t get it. I imagine what a lot of those people are thinking is “why do I need to stop and spindash to go fast when this is supposed to be a fast game” without experimenting or trying to manipulate the physics to go fast. It is sort of a double edged sword. On one hand, you have hardcore fans that want that gameplay depth and want to master the controls, but on the other hand that instantly makes the skill floor much higher than your average Sonic game that doesn’t have that level of complexity and mastery. It is very much a double edged sword, and I think Sonic Team in its current state is just trying to please ad many people as possible and they’re still trying to repair Sonic’s mainstream image after games like Shadow and 06 tarnished the series’ reputation. I guarantee you that after Frontiers, especially now that there is a whole new generation of Sonic fans from the films, that Sonic Team will stop playing it safe as much and push Sonic’s gameplay.
I know bringing up M-Speed in the Hedgehog Engine games is like trying to explain to a Melee causal how to SHFFL, but I really feel like a tiny bit of nuance about Unleashed and Generations are missed here. Causally, sure; he has a boost button the controls the flow of momentum. On the other hand, using Sonic's combined move-set and environment in both games, had you supercede great heights in speedrunning. Sliding, Tilting your stick, and intermittent boosting, are just some of the 3 ways you can access the glitches. It's even in the name M[omentum] Speed and D[irectional] Speed. However the big question is, why'd it take a physics glitch to make the Then Hedgehog Engine games about momentum, only for Colors/Forces/Frontiers to iron it out?
Honestly, I feel like momentum as Sonic fans describe has been sort of a non-factor of these games since Sonic 2 because of the spindash, and the boost and Sonic's base speed increase is only really an extremity of it. Sonic Unleashed and Generations still have momentum that's just as real as in the Adventure games, but Sonic's base speed is just so high that you wouldn't really be able to tell unless you were looking for it or made a mistake. However, the spindash has always sort of just negated the push and pull of actual momentum and more made every level more of a physics playground, with Adventure 1 being the best examples of these physics playgrounds being put to use at their best. Having the boost doesn't make that physics playground approach any less viable since it and the spindash are relatively similar conceptually (an instant burst of speed that eliminates uphill challenge, the only difference being that the spindash is more of a quick shove while the boost is a drawn out rocket), it just means you have to make the levels more extreme in shape and much larger to compensate for it, and I think they at least got the size aspect right, I'm just hoping there's a lot more verticality and extremes in terrain than we've seen so far.
12:05 I can tell you from experience that this is false. Momentum isn't just adding/subtracting speed based on what angle you're moving at. There's a lot you need to take into consideration like how your moving the character, or if it's a 2d or 3d game. Air momentum is also something that you need to consider as well. The physics guide from sonic retro only really works in a 2d setting. A lot of the shit on there doesn't translate well into 3d. All of that aside, what we need sega to do, if they really want to keep the boost, is maybe have 2 sub series of sonic games, one that's more adventure styled with momentum based movement, and another that's more rush focused. I'm saying this because the 2 styles simply can't be combined like many people say they can because there's a lot of stuff from both that contradict each other.
I’m forever going to be biased and recognize my bias as one of the kids who grew up with traditional Sonic. As I joyously replay Sonic 3 & Knuckles, I feel like I am finally playing the gameplay I love. While it was certainly there in the Adventure games, I feel like S2 and S3 are so much more dynamic and exciting. It feels like a reward for good gaming when I’m able to get up to top speed (and even access new places/paths because of it)! The boost games are fun, but I feel like a lot of the challenge that I enjoy has been stripped away. Going fast is just something you do, not a reward. The games do have their challenges, of course. But like you said, it feels flat. I played the Colors remake recently and, though I had a fun enough time, it was kind of sad to see how easy it was to blast through the level on the first try. I didn’t feel like I was “learning” from it. Even with the Wisps, exploring just doesn’t feel the same. Gimmicks aren’t bad, but I would rather be challenged by my learning through the game and the difficulty spikes than to be given a toy to play with to get to where I’m supposed to go. The speed-based physics and momentum make the game feel more personal, for lack of better words. It tests my skills in ways I like. It is more immersive, in my opinion. It adds a layer of “yeah, I fucked that up and need to get good” to dying. I’m not saying all the changes should be dropped, but I do hope that we get a bit more of the old school style. Risk and reward and exploration.
As far as I'm aware, the core of Sonic is Speedrunning and replayability, momentum or as it should actually referred to as, Slope Physics was just the the way that was delivered. While the Adventure games used Slope Physics, I don't think there was really anywhere that REQIRED you to use Momentum to get past, loops just have Boost pads on them and the Adventure games had a lot of Boost pads in general.
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 Spamming Spindash was fun as hell in Adventure, but it 100% broke the game, the developers were definitely aware of it, they hid ring boxes in areas you wouldn't normally be able to access without abusing the Physics. Absolutely abusing the Physics is what made Adventure fun to me. Also, yeah, I get mad at other people, but I use Momentum rather than Slope/Pinball Physics like I should. I'll correct that.
@@darkhorse744 doesn't that just mean they were just lazy to fix it? Also what even is the purpose of just getting ring boxes? If it was something better it'd make more sense
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 I dunno, Sonic Adventure is a very easy game to purposely or accidentally break. It might be like Wavedashing from Melee, where they knew that it was broken, but the didn't have the time to fix it, there was lots of crunch around that time, so I DEFINITELY wouldn't say it was because they were lazy. Edit: Also, I can't remember it was Ring boxes, it might've been lives or something else, but I'm not sure. It was near the start of the level anyway.
It was so annoying trying to discuss a major gameplay mechanic only to be shutdown for being "toxic" because I had a criticism of the Frontiers trailer. I never even said it was going to be bad!
Frontiers does have momentum but only when you’re doing the drop dash, Sonic doesn’t have momentum when running. So think of it like in Sonic 1 where Sonic can only gain more speed by rolling and not running.
The thing I know about momentum is that it can make out of a small empty area like mystic ruins one the best experience in life I played SA1 for 10 years now and only knew recently about how to pull the momentum tricks and jumps in the game And now I know that momentum is something that make the boring meaningless stairs a rocket blast off to the sky I just can't get enough of the feeling where you use momentum to jump so high like you almost fly like in Mystic ruins (every single slope in the area) Chemical plant before the water section if you have enough speed jumping at the right time will let jump so high that you skip the whole water section I only knew about these tricks last year and it makes me wanna cry we didn't have a momentum based controls in sonic frontiers But I'm still hoping modders will somehow do it but in reality it's kinda impossible And they didn't do such thing in generations The past 11 years so I highly doubt it would be possible in frontiers
I love the momentum-based gameplay of Adventure, and it is a big reason why that is still my favorite Sonic game. I would spend so much time just experimenting with slopes! The reason I believe it has been used less with each new 3D Sonic game is because of some complaints from players calling it jank early on. The Adventure games weren't perfect, but they had the right idea about how to bring the feel of 2D Sonic into 3D. The technology was still limited back then, but they had such a successful first attempt. Unfortunately, Sonic team must've only focused on the several complaints about the gameplay, and slowly reworked 3D Sonic to be more about boosting. Which of course isn't a bad thing; it's just different. I appreciate both gameplay styles, but I can't deny just how much more I want to see a return to Adventure style gameplay! I'm serious, momentum-based gameplay makes the games more enticing for me to try and speedrun as well. Because with momentum, getting faster times is more about figuring out how to use the terrain in creative ways, while in boost gameplay it is more about finding the right path and time to use your boost. Again both are great, just different. I just find that momentum gameplay gives me a more "hands-on" and experimental approach that I love so much!
"In my mind, the pefect Sonic game has yet to be created." That's an interesting statement. Are there any series where you can say you feel the perfect game has been created? Like perfect Mario game or Zelda game?
I think my biggest gripe is just... The word itself... All games have momentum and physics. The concept should the "ball/slope physics" instead imo, throwing the word momentum around makes people look like they don't know what they're talking about.
I think the idea is that there is momentum and there is physics. Them interacting in a way that makes you gain or lose speed is momentum-physics. Naming-schemes like that aren't unusual.
I always thought the ideal sonic game would be able to combine all the elements from other sonic games. Mainly momentum and boost. Sonic frontiers looks to be something close to what I wanted. Not perfect, but close. I get it if that isn't a perfect or even ideal philosophy. That's just what appeals to me.
This is a good video on how Sonic can be a good game based on the formula. But I also want to point out something I’ve heard from a game developer and creator of Spark the Electric Jester, Lakefreperd. In one of his streams when he released Spark 3. He said when replicating the feel of a Sonic game in Spark, he didn’t think about Sonic’s “momentum” but how the player controlled Sonic’s “Flow.” Which basically means a player knows how to control their characters abilities and be able to recognize when it’s needed at a specific point in a stage. Lakefreperd used this in tandem with the creation of his levels in Spark the Electric Jester 3 to make the person playing the game feel engaged. Anyways, I just wanted to put my opinion out there and thought it might be interesting.
The way I think of it is that sonic's 2 main things, speed and cool, are such broad things that you can do so many things with it like classic games, boost games and the special kind of game forces is (yes I discovered a way that makes forces the best sonic game ever, ask me in comments if you want to hear about it) and they all just work. Momentum is just a good way to do the speed and style thing well, like I think forces is secretly a masterpiece of subverting the boost gameplay and that has 0 momentum physics.
@faggotbob1307 so best may be a stretch from person to person but once you play like this you will agree it is very good The main problem with the game is that boosting is boring but that is the point, boosting is fast but boring while the alternative, homing attacking, is slow but cool. The point is to evenly mix the two and make it look really cool. It may not make the game challenging in a completion standpoint but having to choose how many enemies to homing attack and when to or not to boost creates it's own challenge where every day I log on and see if I can try somthing different to make it look cooler. Whenever you have the time, try this out and come back to me and say if your mind is changed
@faggotbob1307 glad I inspired someone to give this game a shot. But if you do like it please buy it fully so that SEGA gets the money out of it, but I'm not telling you what to do just suggesting
@da heggydeggy yeah... I am definitely a lot more level headed than others but I was not always this way, it's taken a lot to get me here. I still slip up from time to time, I'm only human after all, but I always do my best to be polite and helpful. Thanks for saying about it as it means people to value my politeness
I literally did not know that Boosts put sonic on max speed. I thought it was as if something was pushing him forward, but that it could still be increased from it through proper nomentum. An addition instead of a setting
I honestly understand the reason there is no momentum in sonic games (or at least not that much), it’s because Sonics main thing is going fast, if he can go fast, he shouldn’t have to depend on slopes and stuff to make him go fast, he should already be able to do that. The only thing momentum should honestly be used for in sonic games is when sonic is rolling (which is somewhat in frontiers). These are just my opinions though.
There is plenty of room for alternate interpretations. For example, maybe Sonic's innate ability is that he can gain much more speed from slopes than the other critters. In that case, slope physics is much more important.
@@rdococ In other words: just completely gut a character just so a very niche and specific thing can be made unnecessarily important to said character.
@@Michael-bb5dd The only thing that's stayed consistent about Sonic is that he can go very fast. How he achieves it changes from game to game, and is not a vital part of the character himself. Anyway, I could just as easily claim that Sonic's character was gutted when the focus shifted away from slope physics. Slope physics did define the gameplay of the first three titles after all.
@@rdococ Except the other thing that's consistent is that Sonic's speed is due to HIS OWN ABILITY, not being due to whatever terrain he's on. His name is Sonic because he IS fast, not because his terrain allows him to BE fast. They define THE CLASSICS, which are 2D sidescrollers, not Sonic as a whole like how Chaomix tries to claim here. To try and act like it does so just destroys a lot of what makes Sonic, well, Sonic, again, for the sake of making a niche thing an unnecessarily crucial and important thing to and about him. If Sonic were all about momentum, he'd have been called Momentum the Moonrat. Momentum should just be how one can USE their speed in a 3D Sonic game, not the source of the speed itself.
Sonic was made a hedgehog, because they wanted a one button game. Jumping on enemies as a spiky ball made sense for a hedgehog. It had nothing to do with physics. The rolling idea came later. In fact, in the beginning, they were planning to make him a rabbit because rabbits are known to be somewhat fast. The plan was to use his ears like Ristar uses his stretchy arms, but the gameplay was too "stop and go", so they went back to the drawing board. Also, while I understand the desire of momentum based physics, if any of these "critics" were to remove their head from their colon for a bit, they'd realize that Sonic's acquired abilities essentially make momentum pointless. This has been the case more and more since the spin dash was introduced. However, the boost and drop dash is what made momentum actually completely irrelevant. Take Sonic Unleashed for example. One of the most beloved "dark age" games. In that game, you run upwards on a clock tower. How do you think momentum physics would be implemented in that sequence?
@@darkhorse744 momentum was set dressing for a game which you'd replay over and over as fast as you can. It's a pretty well known fact that the idea came from one of the devs wanting to get over with the first Mario level as quickly as possible. Speed is actually the core of Sonic's identity, if the name wasn't enough of an indicator. The rest were products of their time and the tech available back then.
@@rdococ I'm not. I'm insulting them for having meltdowns and generally being toxic pricks on Twitter, over the series progressing past their childhood memories.
@@Hynotama Oh, I know, Sonic is basically Mario's child in that sense. Name of course is a tell, as well as Green Hills' checkerboard racing pattern terrain.
That feeling of being shooting up on ramp in sonic games are sooo good. I agree that you need something to speed up instantly. That's why spin dash came out isn't it? How about add drop dash on 3d environment? That would be fun
Eh. You didn't quite nail the topic. The boost games have momentum and slope physics. It's just not as deep as the classic games. The M topic deserves the critisicm it gets because people don't understand that, which is just the basics (quite sad).
No Momentum should not come back and there is a solid reason SEGA and Sonic Team stopped using it. The reason being that it is far to easy to break 3D games with the combination of it and the sheer highspeeds Sonic reaches it makes it to easy to make jumps that break 3D level design or send yourself so high up into the air that you spend more time flying over the stage than actually playing it. This is the same reason why Tails and Knuckles had gimmick play-styles or were nefed in Rise of Lyric, it's to easy to break 3D games. There however is another true core component to Sonic games that all the people shrieking about Momentum ignore and that is Flow every single Sonic game has had it's own Flow from the Classic's to the Boost games. This Flow is never truly the same and learning each and every single games Flow is how you truly come to love them. Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic and the Black Knight, and Sonic Forces are all amazing games when you learn their Flow from the mission objectives in Shadow to using the Perfect Hit in Black Knight, to the general level design of Forces. This Flow is the true core of Sonic it was never Momentum and never will be the core just a tool used to make the Flow and it's a tool that can't work in 3D so new and better ones were needed.
To be entirely fair, the boost games DO have momentum, it's just not by any stretch spotlit by the level design or other gameplay mechanics. If you try to send Sonic around a loop at his bottom speed without boost, he can't do it. Same goes for big slopes, while running down inclines can be contributory to gaining speed a bit faster. If you really want to put this to the test, you can do so in the Wheel bosses in Sonic Colours. It absolutely is there, but you're less likely to notice it due to the incentive to boost and the easy access to it. If it wasn't there at all, then yeah, it would just feel bizarre and unnatural like Sonic Lost World, which absolutely didn't have momentum. I'd say momentum is essential but whether or not it's at the forefront of the game depends entirely on what they want to achieve with the game in question.
What was the last sonic game that had momentum as it's focus? This was a great video to talk about what makes a sonic game, but I feel like momentum is still in the games but it's being overshadowed by other mechanics. still have to think about this...
The ONE positive thing about people having stolen the demo is that, if they at least don't leak the game online to be playable or spoil everything (and hopefully buy the final build of the game still), then at least give the game to modders to get a head start on modding quality of life improvements for when the game comes out in case any PC players want the game. But is that something that can be done if by chance the demo isn't for PC? Then again if they're spilling the file online then I guess it's the PC version. I know emulation wouldn't exactly work out. Not for a brand new game. I think? lol I was so glad that the music swap mod was out like a day or 2 after Sonic Origins so by the time I got to Sonic 3 & Knuckles I was able to hear the MJ tracks and Hard Times' Ice Cap. lol
I think Sonic for peak gameplay needs Momentum, Speed, Flow, and Readability. Momentum was covered here. Speed is obvious. But flow is tricky too. That's about keeping up speed with skill and knowledge. Keeping going fast. That's why Marble Zone sucked, right? Too much not moving. Readability is important too, I think it's a problem in a lot of 3D fan games where it's hard to tell what's a shortcut, backup, bottom path, top path, etc from the main path. But when all four things line up? Chef's kiss.
You talk about the boost mechanic being seen as replacing momentum but to be honest, you could make the same (in my opinion, poor) argument about the spindash.
Saying the boost games have no momentum is just entirely wrong, momentum is still very much in play in the boost games. You can slide down slopes to gain speed and you can boost jump up a slope to do a high jump, and there's lots of areas in levels where you boost off a ramp and that momentum flings you over a pit. Unleashed even had rail balancing.
Now that we have knowledge of Sonic's momentum in Frontiers, it would probably make more sense to define "Momentum" by how it is utilized. Sonic doesn't use slopes as a method of gaining speed anymore, but he does utilize boosting as a method of launching himself as far as he can.
Unleashed and Generations have momentum (Rails, downhill walking, classic rolling...) why did you displayed them while talking about games that didn't ?
I think an important detail to touch on, which is the reason momentum based gameplay disappeared from the series, is SEGA's reactionary behavior. The lack of momentum gameplay isn't because it wouldn't work or that the boost is meant to replace it, but because SEGA simply wants to divorce themselves of the games that have it. When an idea fails for SEGA they tend to throw the baby out with the bath water... Sonic '06 is bad? No more multiple characters or Adventure-style gameplay. Sonic Lost World is bad? No more parkour mechanics or spindash. Sonic Boom is bad? No more experimentation. The biggest hurdle to getting momentum gameplay back is SEGA themselves, not any game-design decision or developmental issues.
Considering Twitter got enraged about you just having an opinion on how Sonic’s shoes should look, I’m not surprised this topic is so touchy.
Twitter gets offended if you exist in the REAL world, so it's not surprising tbh that said more folks should be ignoring that cesspool platform (even mocking or exposing the bad birds kinda plays into their hands... or erm talons I guess?).
that shit was so stupid
The sonic fan base is so toxic. They just can't handle different opinions on topics and throw a fit if you don't agree with there world view. Its hard to look at frontiers objectively because any downside you point out will get you so much hate and excuses from fanboys.
I'm not surprised about twitter talking shi about the "M word" i mean it's twitter they talk crap about other people too lol.
@@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778 fr 😭 I got attacked for saying i like the long quills more
My theory (from what i've been seeing) is that Sonic Team is trying to morph both the boost and adventure formula with Frontiers, all they need to do is add the spin dash since we already have the drop dash and that move has momentum
I really hope they don't go through with that though because the 2 styles simply do not work mixed
@@sonicjason255 nono hear me out, the boost will work like a run from BOTW, its limited but in an open world it gets you places fast, and the spindash/drop dash could be for gaining momentum or reach places you couldnt with the boost, it makes sense right?
Unfortunately if that were the case they've failed miserably because it's almost entirely boost and just ignoring the Adventure formula. There was way more momentum in Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations than there is in Frontiers.
@@TakumiJoyconBoyz ok, we'll just never have momentum again lol
@@TakumiJoyconBoyz Have you played the entire game, cus you're talking like you've played the entire game.
Actually, Generations, Colors and Unleashed had some momentum, but boosting made Sonic reach top speed instantly and infinitely. It was there, it just took a backseat
Exactly!
I’m glad someone said it.
He doesn't seem to know that Momentum and Slope Physics don't mean the same thing.
But slope physics were also there too, we were just going at such a high speed it’s hard to notice, unleashed is without a doubt the fastest sonic game to date
Yeah, I specifically remembered Generations modern levels and was like "wdym it's not there?" because many branching paths actually use it
Personally, while I don't think momentum is necessary to make a Sonic game fun, it can make a game have more weight into it with proper balancing, which is what I believe what Sonic Team's going for, a proper balance between the Boost and Adventure gameplay styles in an open-zone
Except it doesn't have it, I'd argue Frontiers is more of it's own thing plus the boost formula...hell, calling it "Adventure gameplay" is in itself wrong, since...what is there that's "Adventure" about it? Levels that aren't hallways? That's just silly.
Like, I myself really don't care for the game, but I rather people see how it has actual combat for once as an indicator of something new, rather than throwing around old terms that don't fit, for the sake of proving it's good in any way, you dig?
Stop talking Yucan
@@BalooDumptruck rude
I thought that the M word was "Maria" because of Shadow's current characterization not being influenced by his promise to Maria at all.
MARIAAAAAHHHHHH!
My guess was that it was Mobius.
😅
Bring hope to humanity. 😮
Him still being motivated by Maria wouldn’t be accurate to his character though the whole ending of shadow the hedgehog has him deciding to stop being controlled by his past and do his own thing
Another part of the controversy is over the name. Momentum is simply mass × velocity, so technically even boosting on a flat plane builds momentum. Heck, the creator of the Bumper Engine had said we should stop calling it "momentum" and go with something like "slope physics" or "pinball physics".
This is what annoys me most, yes frontiers have momentum but the real question is how much sonic is affected by gravity
Fr, I hate how much the word is used, sonic forces had too much momentum and people still say that game didn't have any 💀
I myself desperately wanna call it slope physics or JUST physics, but because Sonic fans literally turned momentum into a buzzword, I and many others are just kinda forced to use it in discussion to remain cohesive. Thankfully everyone knows what momentum means in this context.
@@superfandesonic1 too much? How
@@chaomasterzero4610 Haven't you played the avatar levels? Specially in the 2d sections it gets really noticeable
As a kid I could never really grasp why I enjoyed just moving around with Sonic in the Mystic Ruins in Sonic Adventure. I later found out that it was momentum that made that seemingly mundane gameplay loop so fun and engaging. I think the Boost games really lost something special here. I suspect it's tougher to implement given the much larger scale of stages in the new games? But I agree that the perfect Sonic game could very well be one that integrates both.
I read this comment in Pauls voice. Knowing that you're a Sonic fan is really cool.
Well we'll well it seems we have even more than n common then I thought. I've been playing my own rare hunters set with friends online just because it's so much fun.
@@ShonicBurn I can't wait for them to release the 25th anniversary packs next year so more people can give it a try IRL!
Funny thing is,Sonic frontiers does have some momentum in it. It's not adventure physics but it's still there.The fact we are given better control over Sonic as well as some momentum here and there it seems Sonic is going back to his roots even if it's just a little bit
We have a slider to change his speed so maybe they can do that with momentum, you can change how drastic it is
Adventure physics were crap
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 alright, i'll take the bait, how?
There physically isn't any, not in any substantial, actually cool way where it actually makes you feel super fast.
@@yuchun_ sounds like a skill issue
I can't believe a simple term in physics has become a slur.
Lol
especially in the context of a _blue hedgehog that runs_
Whoever came up with that idea is a massive idiot. So are the whole lot that go along with it. It's stupid.
Compare: _work, force, energy_ and _terminal._
So momentum is basically the equivalent to the n-word
Can we start calling it slope physics cause almost every sonic game has momentum. Especially the boost games.
momentum is just another way of measuring speed or velocity, I 100% agree.
Imo, momentum is what makes me really feel like i'm controlling sonic and it's what makes it fun. experimenting with it would be amazing in an open world game
💯 just feels so much better
Great vid...
One thing I wanna touch on, is the fact that the thing ppl don't seem to understand is that the boost gameplay's "momentum" is in keeping the flow of speed, rather than physics
That's an important distinction and it still matters that the slope physics are lacking these days because it leaves out a set of existing fans
Yeah, the point of this video is that physics can make boost gameplay more fun to master, without taking anything away from it
@@MarkerMurker they're not gone, there's just no way Sonic would be affected by physics with the boost going down, I mean, he literally glues to walls and you expect gravity to affect him going down?
@@mau2172 physics will just make it more broken instead of fun but many people don't realise it
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 Yes. Sonic Adventure did it. Sonic GT did it. Spark The Electric Jester did it. Wall running was directly tied to the momentum you have and it's used as a game mechanic
I think another reason why the topic of momentum is at a fever pitch right now is because for a Lange number of fans sonic frontiers seem like almost gonna the perfect sonic game. Open environment, good graphics, a story that could actually entertaining with, people behind that story who actually care about sonic. All that would be needed to make it the definitive sonic game in the eyes of these fans is momentum. So far it seems like there will be very little of that in frontiers so that’s why people are so heated about the topic and why comes up so much that other are sick of hearing it.
good graphics is a bit of a stretch
The reason I don't like discourse about momentum in Sonic is that people don't seem to understand what the word means. Momentum refers to the quantity of motion a moving body has, and the inertia of its movements. Mario 64 has momentum. The boost games have momentum; otherwise the stomp would be pointless because you could just go neutral on the analog stick to stop midair movement. Sonic 06 was the only Sonic game to not have momentum; characters simply changed coordinates based on your inputs.
What I think people are referring to when they talk about momentum in Sonic games is "pinball physics", which is a certain set of forces that apply to an object which influence its movement. The classic games did it the best, the adventure games were decent but not perfect translations, and the boost games mostly dropped the idea. But momentum itself never really stopped being a thing, except for that one time (don't worry 06 I still love you).
Let me know what you think about momentum? Should Sonic games be utilizing it, or are they better off without it?
Also, huge thank you to Munk Pack for sponsoring today's video! Go to thld.co/munkpack_chaomix_1022 and use code CHAOMIX to get 20% off your first purchase!
Nice ❤
momentum is kinda required in sonic games
otherwise it feels weird
I don't think it really needs momentum. But it might, I have mixed feelings for momentum.
Yeah I kinda agree with Tails_Forever. Fans can make fan games with heavy momentum but I don't think Sega will bring heavy momentum gameplay back anytime soon or never.
Every game needs momentum, unless they're going for something simpler and not necessarily realistic
Honestly think sonic rush did it best, the game is actually pretty fun to try without boost, and the game is actually just as fast without it because it utilities momentum to it's max still my favorite sonic game to this day.
For me it’s Colors DS. (Aka Sonic Rush 3 pretty much lol)
@@djroscurro9859 sonic rush adventure
@@adriantannert4665 exactly Rush 2
also one I haven't played yet but I will
I really feel like everyone didn't play the same games I did. The boost games absolutely still have typical sonic physics, its just not noticeable because of the level design de-emphasizing it
Sonic Colors for example, I've done some cool skips and red ring grabs by boost jumping off slopes to get insane air time, same tricks can be pulled off in unleashed and gens, its just that the game isn't designed for that
thats what im sayin. the only mainline 3d sonic to not have some form of "momentum" is sonic 06, which literally didnt, your speed and jumps were static, isolated from the terrain you run on.
@@Invalourrr-vb3xo I think it did have momentum with the spindash and blue gem but the game's physics were so bugged in things like loops that it makes you think there is none at all
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 again, those were static speed increases, the spindash and blue gem all had a hard cap on speed. I don't think the spindash going down a hill built up any speed, it was changed in p06 on pc though.
@@Invalourrr-vb3xo it did with the spin dash but you can barely see a difference with the blue gem since y'know, it makes you go basically the highest speed possible without reaching mach speed
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 I didn't know that, if its that slight, then does it really matter?
I think the use of the drop dash and boost in frontiers is a really good idea. You can go super fast down hill with the drop dash but not lose the speed either on flat surfaces or up hill with the boost. I could see a great mix of ability usage while moving through the world
I can’t believe Chaomix said the M word
Great Video! Always enjoy watching your channel! Keep the good videos coming! 👍
Believe it or not but sonic frontiers does have some kind of momentum with the drop dash.
I hope its the drop dash we know
@@pauldanielvergara8710 it's in a 3D space so it will feel a bit different for sure.
@@Fungiarts ehem... Sonic project hero
@@pauldanielvergara8710 project hero doesn't feel the same as a 2D drop dash. Just like a jump in Mario feels different in 3D than 2D.
its not very good physics tbh also the fact that its locked to one move really sucks
I would label/mark this video as
**Rated M for Momentum**
**Parental Advisory and Approval Required**
I dont dislike people saying momentum, what I dislike is when they use the term to refer to any number of things that arent momentum, such as acceleration, building up speed going down slopes, jumping higher from slopes with speed.
people tend to use momentum as a blanket term for literally any and all things when a better word is physics, specifically slope ones.
Also, Physics based gameplay may not have been the focus, but it was still present in colors, generations, unleashed, and even lost world to an extent. running up a loop at a slow speed in any of those games would result in slowly falling back (when the loops arent automated that is).
like in colors for instance, theres still a hand full of sections where boosting off a slope and jumping can send you higher and be used as a shortcut, same with unleashed and generations. So while not the focus, its present.
best example of this I can find is honestly in sonic colors ds, which had some really fun ways to mess around and skip some slower platforming sections with jumps off slopes.
@Kian true, but I think the clever use of angled surfaces is the real appeal, not just weight on its own.
Sonic games need innovation. That's it, that's my whole take.
I think a lot of vocal Sonic fans are fans of the characters, the art style, the stories, many don't seem to be fans of the games themselves at all.
Which is exactly what frontiers is(innovation for the series), couldn't be more sick of people whining that the game wasn't designed the way they want it too be
And there it is...
When you see how a large portion of the most well-known Sonic games turn out (since games like Rush Adventure tend to be overlooked), I can't exactly blame those fans lmao
Innovation is the most Sonic thing you can do after all, Sonic is at his best when he's punching up after all.
I've always been of the mindset that Sonic's speed could be portrayed in so many different ways. We have this highly flexible character that can and has worked in almost any setting he's been put into. Why are we limiting and locking him into this one box, without letting him explore and redefine what speed means for the series. My favorite example to draw from is how we know that Shadow is considered to be fast, but why not experiment with that? I think it would be interesting to have a game where he plays like Vergil from Devil May Cry V, another character whom people consider to be fast. the term could mean so many things for this series. I feel Sonic Team should experiment a bit. Just because Sonic is fast doesn't mean he should constantly be running at breakneck speeds. There are other more creative and fantastical way his speed can be portrayed.
As a person who grew up with sonic colors, and is currently playing sonic adventure 1. I would really like to see how these formulas could work together
The momentum physics in Adventure 1 are not particularly significant because the spindash is just as instantaneous as the boost in Unleashed, the difference being that the spindash actually never runs out.
There are more opportunities to take advantage of Sonic's speed on slopes in Adventure because the level design is more open.
Boosting off a hill won't send you flying! That's why they made auto ramps and colored rings! However, spin-dashing down a slope will push your speed faster and rolling up a hill at high speeds will shoot you into the air!
However, they could add that feature to boosting, they just don't want to for whatever reason.
@@supercyclone8342 They actually did that with Forces, you can pull off some far jumps off of hills
@@Zaylio Funnily enough I saw that soon after I made this comment! It doesn't change how much the game did wrong, but it does give it some points at least
Maybe that disappointing mess of a game will be viewed as a good introductory speedrun game in the future
@@supercyclone8342 Boosting off a hill does send you flying. There's a mod for Sonic Generations that removes all automation. Try playing with it and you'll see it immediately at the first ramp in Green Hill that the game is basically unplayable now, because Sonic's launch height becomes super inconsistent based on the angle you enter the air from (a problem that doesn't exist in Adventure games because Sonic is much slower, uses rotational turning physics instead of a strafing model and the level design is less corridory). Those dash pads at the hill are there not just to set the correct angle, but to slow you down too (because Sonic is sent flying way the hell up with normal boost speed)
@@M4Dbrat Yeah you're right. I should've aimed my comment more specifically at Frontiers.
However, part of good momentum is building levels around it and fine tuning the physics so that the effect is just right. So even if you slapped a momentum-based character controller into Sonic Frontiers, it wouldn't be much better.
Btw, I do like boost gameplay. I just see tons of potential in gameplay like Sonic GT
What is important is how well Mario 64 does when it comes to giving you freedom on how you play the game. You can get stars out of sequence if you are skilled enough. Hence why Mario Odyssey went back to it's 3D roots as well by giving players the freedom of playing a stage enough to the point where they feel satisfied and move on. Zelda focused on that aspect too, and now breath of the wild is one of the most critically acclaimed games in the series.
Sonic Frontiers needs momentum because it allows players the freedom on how to approach obstacles. If you give them a sandbox, the player will try to find a way to build a castle. And each castle will be different from one person to another.
I get the idea of having things to do all the time to keep the players interest up, but that can be done too much to the point where it seems mindless when done wrong. Or it could stress people out that they feel like they constantly have to do something and they cant just take a breath and enjoy the atmosphere. Because as boring as it looks to some, to others it looks beautiful. Yeah maybe its no, i dont know, (insert open world game thats really popular and breathtaking), but it still looks stunning enough that some may just want to take in the sights. Especially in the tutorial area because HOT DIGGITY DOG! The view looks nice down the cliff with all the water.
I think the nothingness that exists between each thing to do allows the player to take their time on things. This is a Sonic game where you can play at your own pace, and maybe thats why momentum isnt so much a factor. Or boosting with the ability to one hit enemies. They didnt want the new players to always worry about not making it up slopes so much so they put a bit of a damper on it perhaps. This might not be a valid (though highly a subjective word) concern nor one that new sonic fans have, but we have to consider SEGA is taking sonic in a new direction to appeal to those new fans. Its not just for hardcore gamer sonic fans only anymore, but it was always supposed to appeal to plenty of audiences (though some games were clearly meant for specific audiences). It seems more oriented towards just plain exploration and combat, with a chunk of boost levels left in it though those may be lost to time in the future since theres not a great new direction they can take that formula.
But where we dont get momentum, we get a LOT of abilities even so. Sonic now has his lightspeed dash back in his base moveset, the bounce bracelet, a drop dash that actually helps your speed downhill, homing attack thats not mapped to jump so it can be done from the GROUND, drifting (in some places in the game still dont know how thats gonna work), sidestepping as well as dodges in the air, a counter and parry, and a few options for using the boost! The normal one, or the other two leaked ones
But as someone who LOVES sonic adventure for its creativity in how you traverse the levels, I wholeheartedly agree that such would have been a cool idea built around the momentum. So I get why that would be cool
After all this is basically modern sonic adventure with the presentation we are getting. A hub world with a heavy focus on nature like adventure (aside from the other two areas being the city and ship), levels locked behind loading zones though not required, bosses in hub world rather than special rendered areas like in adventure...
Its not 1 to 1, but it seems similar enough since adventure felt the most 3d (adventure 2 seemed kinda like a hallway with its premium sonic and shadow levels) to me other than heroes and the..other two hated games that followed it plus lost world
Finally I understand automation sounds boring with how the grind rails are everywhere but I much prefer that to something a lot harder to consistently do, like keeping your speed on walls and not awkwardly falling off them flame core 06 style.
And plenty of newcomers that I cannot name because I do not know any here personally would probably like the simplicity too (im saying it in a shaky voice so that way im not being bashed for making untrue statements on little basis), but that would take out the challenge and thus the argument of automation comes forth once more. Though there is rail switching so its not too boring, and you can just jump off the rail too youre not locked on it.
Its hard for a middle ground to be achieved between those who have loved sonic through the good and bad and those coming into sonic for the first time. A new idea to sonic fans is hard to swallow sometimes I would think because its been messed up due to SEGA being dumb with not taking enough time to make it work, or sometimes "messed up" whereas to a new sonic fan they wouldnt mind it too much.
These ideas of how sonic games should be done take a lot of unpacking but I think frontiers is trying its best to do what the movies did: DRAW IN NEW PEOPLE instead of trying to please only the existing people.
No hate intended towards existing sonic fans during any era of his life in this earth
I’m a 2000s kid, so I don’t have that nostalgic biased to want the momentum. For me, the boosting always felt like you were really going at “super Sonic speed”. You’re forced to react to things faster, and I feel like if used properly really is a great mechanic.
However I also know that it can make things too easy…looking at you, first Shadow Stage in Sonic Forces where I literally boosted over the map. Looking at you.
There needs to be a balance between boosting and momentum. My approach would be having him build up momentum, and THEN being able to boost! That way it keeps the magic of both worlds!
Having momentum based platforming is hardly a sonic only thing. Especially nowadays. There’s even a section of Xenoblade chronicles about it (specifically an ice region). And Mario used it a bunch too. Especially in super Mario world, Mario 64, sunshine and odyssey.
That ice slide is the most fun part of Xenoblade 1's gameplay. It just sucks that jumping from it often kills you because the game has falldamage.
Mario’s had momentum from the beginning. I’d argue that’s what made Super Mario Bros. unique in the first place.
Speak for yourself, I really enjoy simply blasting off with max rings in Frontiers, sure the slopes and ways they launch me is great (and I definitely think that should continue) but at times I simply enjoy just going fast.
I really think that what should be aimed for in the future is a kind of middle ground, Sonic is a lot more powerful than when he was younger so it kinda makes sense that he could make his own speed. Rather than the physics focusing on momentum, I think they should be what they originally were, gravity. Actually another thing to take note of is something that Al The Boi said in one of his videos:
"Sonic should be to movement, what Dante is to combat."
Something like that sounds really fun.
Technically, ALL platformers NEED momentum. Mario has more momentum than Forces Sonic. The feedback shouldn't say "Momentum: Yes or No?", it's a question of is this momentum enough? Should it be more and or better? I strongly believe the answer is yes. Momentum is just the force an object (Sonic) has once the opposing force (player input) stops exerting (lets go of the stick). You are referring to Slope Physics. Not momentum. ALL platformers have momentum
To clarify: I would love for slope physics to return also. but they are a different mechanic than momentum, of which ALL sonic games have, including boost sonic, it's just that classic sonic has A TON of momentum with slope physics
@@andiekatamari Thank youuu, it's really annoying to hear people talk about momentum when they mean Slope/Pinball Physics.
5:19 Actually this is false. The reason Sonic is a hedgehog is because Naka needed a way for Sonic to attack and jump at the same time to keep his Single-Button Gameplay system, which made Yasuhara suggest a spinning motion. Sonic is a hedgehog and spins/rolls to make it so he can attack while moving in a single smooth action.
Momentum and the interaction with the terrain was made a thing independant of this. It didn't really matter whether Sonic rolled or was a hedgehog or not for it.
Overall, the games that have this element to the gameplay tend towards being my favorite, but I have to admit, people tend to almost religioufy it to an extremely toxic degree. It's basically become this thing where people don't even have an actual argument or statement over why it's presence is needed or good most of the time. It's just sort of this 'truism" people judge the merit of games on.
I also think it isn't as simple as ""take any Sonic game and add momentum and it just becomes a better game". It's a very surface level look at the mechanic and its implementation into level design, the effects it has or even how it has actually mattered historically in regards to the gameplay of the games that had it.
Overall, Great video.
Seriously, the level to which people treat Momentum as God is annoying, I've had people say that Boost is bad because it isn't the "core" of Sonic like they think Momentum is.
Also I remember hearing that Speedrunning and replayability are what Sonic was built on and that this was probably said by Yuji Naka, but I can't find a source on that.
I think I found the Yuji Naka interview that you're probably quoting, specifically the part about why Sonic is a Hedgehog.
It goes "However if a Rabbit does a somersault attack, it's just going to hurt itself, right. We thought it would be better to have an animal with a hard shell or spines. Two possibilities came up: an armadillo or a Hedgehog, but the hedgehog won out because it was faster."
Thank you good to see someone else who knows that Momentum was never a deeply ingrained part of the core of Sonic.
Thank you for saying this. This irks as much as when people say sonic is about momentum, when he’s not. All of the advertising for sonic back in the 90s was about his speed, heck sonic was built on the principle of going fast.
I don’t really think sonic needs momentum all of the time. I think a sonic game that builds around other features is a cool way to create a game, however I do enjoy momentum physics. I’d love to see a return of it but like I say with a lot of other games, I think its important to see what the developers vision is first and then build opinions on whether it was a good idea or not. Frontiers is clearly a game to test the waters for something much bigger in the future. Sega actually seems to be listening to us now so I think its important to express what we think is good for the franchise when games like this come out
Ya know when you say if only there were a
Game that balanced rolling momentum and boosting well that game does exist it’s called sonic rush
Momentum alone wouldn't make the perfect Sonic game for me. What I want above anything else is precise and responsive movement with intricate and enganging/challenging level design and platforming. Lots of verticality and twists and turns to keep you on your toes, rather than just holding forward for most of the game. Momentum would be the icing on that cake.
Momentum is important and I do agree that there’s a lot of untapped gameplay potential there, but I also think that Sonic doesn’t necessarily need it to have good games. The beauty of this franchise, for me personally, is that Sonic gameplay can be different with each new game. Obviously that comes with the downside of occasionally not liking a game, but I think it has more positives than negatives tbh. The variety of the Sonic franchise is amazing, and it extends beyond the games into the cartoons, comics, and even movies now.
Also, we ain’t just gonna sit here and act like Sonic still doesn’t have a hint of momentum gameplay even in games where it’s not the focus. The boost games still have lots of stuff you can experiment with in terms of slope jumps and other cool tricks that you might find in other Sonic games. One of my favorite things to do in the modern games is to stomp into a half pipe and watch Sonic slide along the ground at top speed cuz the speed from the stomp transferred into the speed of the slide because of the half pipe. Of course, it’s no longer the focus of these games, but hey Sonic Frontiers is making it more of a focus by having the drop dash in 3D and 2D while also being able to roll in 2D sections. It definitely needs some work, but I see Frontiers as a stepping stone towards something a lot more momentum heavy and free flowing.
And I don’t think the player controllers of Unleashed onward are incapable of going cool slope tricks and running through loops without being scripted. I just think Sonic Team thinks more mainstream gamers would just want to get a lot of speed for free rather than spend the time learning a physics system. There are a lot of people who have played the Classics and aren’t hardcore fans of the series and they simply didn’t get it. I imagine what a lot of those people are thinking is “why do I need to stop and spindash to go fast when this is supposed to be a fast game” without experimenting or trying to manipulate the physics to go fast. It is sort of a double edged sword. On one hand, you have hardcore fans that want that gameplay depth and want to master the controls, but on the other hand that instantly makes the skill floor much higher than your average Sonic game that doesn’t have that level of complexity and mastery. It is very much a double edged sword, and I think Sonic Team in its current state is just trying to please ad many people as possible and they’re still trying to repair Sonic’s mainstream image after games like Shadow and 06 tarnished the series’ reputation.
I guarantee you that after Frontiers, especially now that there is a whole new generation of Sonic fans from the films, that Sonic Team will stop playing it safe as much and push Sonic’s gameplay.
Momentum
Mandates
Mobius
McNosehair
McDonalds
Madness always follows the "M word" in the context of the Sonic franchise (for better and for worse).
Maria
Don’t forget “Movie”!
Mario
modern
@@64bitmodels66 dang it I was just going to put that down
nice
I know bringing up M-Speed in the Hedgehog Engine games is like trying to explain to a Melee causal how to SHFFL, but I really feel like a tiny bit of nuance about Unleashed and Generations are missed here. Causally, sure; he has a boost button the controls the flow of momentum. On the other hand, using Sonic's combined move-set and environment in both games, had you supercede great heights in speedrunning. Sliding, Tilting your stick, and intermittent boosting, are just some of the 3 ways you can access the glitches. It's even in the name M[omentum] Speed and D[irectional] Speed. However the big question is, why'd it take a physics glitch to make the Then Hedgehog Engine games about momentum, only for Colors/Forces/Frontiers to iron it out?
Baldy McNoseHair Gaming
Baldy McNoseHair Gaming
Baldy McNoseHair Gaming
Honestly, I feel like momentum as Sonic fans describe has been sort of a non-factor of these games since Sonic 2 because of the spindash, and the boost and Sonic's base speed increase is only really an extremity of it. Sonic Unleashed and Generations still have momentum that's just as real as in the Adventure games, but Sonic's base speed is just so high that you wouldn't really be able to tell unless you were looking for it or made a mistake. However, the spindash has always sort of just negated the push and pull of actual momentum and more made every level more of a physics playground, with Adventure 1 being the best examples of these physics playgrounds being put to use at their best. Having the boost doesn't make that physics playground approach any less viable since it and the spindash are relatively similar conceptually (an instant burst of speed that eliminates uphill challenge, the only difference being that the spindash is more of a quick shove while the boost is a drawn out rocket), it just means you have to make the levels more extreme in shape and much larger to compensate for it, and I think they at least got the size aspect right, I'm just hoping there's a lot more verticality and extremes in terrain than we've seen so far.
12:05 I can tell you from experience that this is false.
Momentum isn't just adding/subtracting speed based on what angle you're moving at. There's a lot you need to take into consideration like how your moving the character, or if it's a 2d or 3d game. Air momentum is also something that you need to consider as well.
The physics guide from sonic retro only really works in a 2d setting. A lot of the shit on there doesn't translate well into 3d.
All of that aside, what we need sega to do, if they really want to keep the boost, is maybe have 2 sub series of sonic games, one that's more adventure styled with momentum based movement, and another that's more rush focused. I'm saying this because the 2 styles simply can't be combined like many people say they can because there's a lot of stuff from both that contradict each other.
I’m forever going to be biased and recognize my bias as one of the kids who grew up with traditional Sonic. As I joyously replay Sonic 3 & Knuckles, I feel like I am finally playing the gameplay I love. While it was certainly there in the Adventure games, I feel like S2 and S3 are so much more dynamic and exciting. It feels like a reward for good gaming when I’m able to get up to top speed (and even access new places/paths because of it)!
The boost games are fun, but I feel like a lot of the challenge that I enjoy has been stripped away. Going fast is just something you do, not a reward. The games do have their challenges, of course. But like you said, it feels flat. I played the Colors remake recently and, though I had a fun enough time, it was kind of sad to see how easy it was to blast through the level on the first try. I didn’t feel like I was “learning” from it. Even with the Wisps, exploring just doesn’t feel the same. Gimmicks aren’t bad, but I would rather be challenged by my learning through the game and the difficulty spikes than to be given a toy to play with to get to where I’m supposed to go.
The speed-based physics and momentum make the game feel more personal, for lack of better words. It tests my skills in ways I like. It is more immersive, in my opinion. It adds a layer of “yeah, I fucked that up and need to get good” to dying. I’m not saying all the changes should be dropped, but I do hope that we get a bit more of the old school style. Risk and reward and exploration.
As far as I'm aware, the core of Sonic is Speedrunning and replayability, momentum or as it should actually referred to as, Slope Physics was just the the way that was delivered.
While the Adventure games used Slope Physics, I don't think there was really anywhere that REQIRED you to use Momentum to get past, loops just have Boost pads on them and the Adventure games had a lot of Boost pads in general.
It was abusing the physics that made the game have speedrunning potential, not momentum
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 Spamming Spindash was fun as hell in Adventure, but it 100% broke the game, the developers were definitely aware of it, they hid ring boxes in areas you wouldn't normally be able to access without abusing the Physics.
Absolutely abusing the Physics is what made Adventure fun to me.
Also, yeah, I get mad at other people, but I use Momentum rather than Slope/Pinball Physics like I should.
I'll correct that.
Peak comment.
@@darkhorse744 doesn't that just mean they were just lazy to fix it? Also what even is the purpose of just getting ring boxes? If it was something better it'd make more sense
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 I dunno, Sonic Adventure is a very easy game to purposely or accidentally break.
It might be like Wavedashing from Melee, where they knew that it was broken, but the didn't have the time to fix it, there was lots of crunch around that time, so I DEFINITELY wouldn't say it was because they were lazy.
Edit: Also, I can't remember it was Ring boxes, it might've been lives or something else, but I'm not sure.
It was near the start of the level anyway.
It was so annoying trying to discuss a major gameplay mechanic only to be shutdown for being "toxic" because I had a criticism of the Frontiers trailer. I never even said it was going to be bad!
Frontiers does have momentum but only when you’re doing the drop dash, Sonic doesn’t have momentum when running. So think of it like in Sonic 1 where Sonic can only gain more speed by rolling and not running.
The boost gauge was made to fix this problem.
Ah yes, the merch word.
I cried in the end of sonic frontiers when sonic said "its m****** time" and m***** all over the game
Technically, slope influence on movement does exist in all of the boost games. At the very least in 2D.
The thing I know about momentum is that it can make out of a small empty area like mystic ruins one the best experience in life
I played SA1 for 10 years now and only knew recently about how to pull the momentum tricks and jumps in the game
And now I know that momentum is something that make the boring meaningless stairs a rocket blast off to the sky
I just can't get enough of the feeling where you use momentum to jump so high like you almost fly like in
Mystic ruins (every single slope in the area)
Chemical plant before the water section if you have enough speed jumping at the right time will let jump so high that you skip the whole water section
I only knew about these tricks last year and it makes me wanna cry we didn't have a momentum based controls in sonic frontiers
But I'm still hoping modders will somehow do it but in reality it's kinda impossible
And they didn't do such thing in generations The past 11 years so I highly doubt it would be possible in frontiers
According to footage, Sonic’s drop dash in frontiers has proper momentum, and the rails have momentum, but only a little bit
"Now your daddy got killed and I feel for your family, but your baseball career... now that was a tragedy"
At first I thought the m word was going to refer to Mobius.
Or mario
@@evanlif what do you mean?
I mean sonic fan hate mario
@@evanlif im a sonic fan that also enjoys mario.
@@carterh914 I'm only talking about the one who cherish sonic as god and hate any video game that not sonic
Imagine knowing or caring what anyone on Twitter says
I love the momentum-based gameplay of Adventure, and it is a big reason why that is still my favorite Sonic game. I would spend so much time just experimenting with slopes!
The reason I believe it has been used less with each new 3D Sonic game is because of some complaints from players calling it jank early on. The Adventure games weren't perfect, but they had the right idea about how to bring the feel of 2D Sonic into 3D. The technology was still limited back then, but they had such a successful first attempt. Unfortunately, Sonic team must've only focused on the several complaints about the gameplay, and slowly reworked 3D Sonic to be more about boosting. Which of course isn't a bad thing; it's just different. I appreciate both gameplay styles, but I can't deny just how much more I want to see a return to Adventure style gameplay!
I'm serious, momentum-based gameplay makes the games more enticing for me to try and speedrun as well. Because with momentum, getting faster times is more about figuring out how to use the terrain in creative ways, while in boost gameplay it is more about finding the right path and time to use your boost. Again both are great, just different. I just find that momentum gameplay gives me a more "hands-on" and experimental approach that I love so much!
"In my mind, the pefect Sonic game has yet to be created."
That's an interesting statement. Are there any series where you can say you feel the perfect game has been created? Like perfect Mario game or Zelda game?
He does have momentum in frontiers!! With the drop dash rolling down hills is super fun!!!
I think my biggest gripe is just... The word itself... All games have momentum and physics. The concept should the "ball/slope physics" instead imo, throwing the word momentum around makes people look like they don't know what they're talking about.
I think the idea is that there is momentum and there is physics. Them interacting in a way that makes you gain or lose speed is momentum-physics. Naming-schemes like that aren't unusual.
I’m glad that I’m so out the loop of sonic discourse I haven’t heard of this argument till now
..."morbin'"?
A rollercoaster without slopes is just a train.
I always thought the ideal sonic game would be able to combine all the elements from other sonic games. Mainly momentum and boost. Sonic frontiers looks to be something close to what I wanted. Not perfect, but close.
I get it if that isn't a perfect or even ideal philosophy. That's just what appeals to me.
This is a good video on how Sonic can be a good game based on the formula. But I also want to point out something I’ve heard from a game developer and creator of Spark the Electric Jester, Lakefreperd. In one of his streams when he released Spark 3. He said when replicating the feel of a Sonic game in Spark, he didn’t think about Sonic’s “momentum” but how the player controlled Sonic’s “Flow.” Which basically means a player knows how to control their characters abilities and be able to recognize when it’s needed at a specific point in a stage. Lakefreperd used this in tandem with the creation of his levels in Spark the Electric Jester 3 to make the person playing the game feel engaged. Anyways, I just wanted to put my opinion out there and thought it might be interesting.
The way I think of it is that sonic's 2 main things, speed and cool, are such broad things that you can do so many things with it like classic games, boost games and the special kind of game forces is (yes I discovered a way that makes forces the best sonic game ever, ask me in comments if you want to hear about it) and they all just work. Momentum is just a good way to do the speed and style thing well, like I think forces is secretly a masterpiece of subverting the boost gameplay and that has 0 momentum physics.
@faggotbob1307 so best may be a stretch from person to person but once you play like this you will agree it is very good
The main problem with the game is that boosting is boring but that is the point, boosting is fast but boring while the alternative, homing attacking, is slow but cool. The point is to evenly mix the two and make it look really cool. It may not make the game challenging in a completion standpoint but having to choose how many enemies to homing attack and when to or not to boost creates it's own challenge where every day I log on and see if I can try somthing different to make it look cooler.
Whenever you have the time, try this out and come back to me and say if your mind is changed
@faggotbob1307 glad I inspired someone to give this game a shot. But if you do like it please buy it fully so that SEGA gets the money out of it, but I'm not telling you what to do just suggesting
@da heggydeggy yeah... I am definitely a lot more level headed than others but I was not always this way, it's taken a lot to get me here. I still slip up from time to time, I'm only human after all, but I always do my best to be polite and helpful. Thanks for saying about it as it means people to value my politeness
I literally did not know that Boosts put sonic on max speed. I thought it was as if something was pushing him forward, but that it could still be increased from it through proper nomentum. An addition instead of a setting
I honestly understand the reason there is no momentum in sonic games (or at least not that much), it’s because Sonics main thing is going fast, if he can go fast, he shouldn’t have to depend on slopes and stuff to make him go fast, he should already be able to do that. The only thing momentum should honestly be used for in sonic games is when sonic is rolling (which is somewhat in frontiers). These are just my opinions though.
There is plenty of room for alternate interpretations. For example, maybe Sonic's innate ability is that he can gain much more speed from slopes than the other critters. In that case, slope physics is much more important.
@@rdococ
In other words: just completely gut a character just so a very niche and specific thing can be made unnecessarily important to said character.
Why do people think slope physics should affect Sonic so much if he was shown to basically glue to walls in 90° angles before?
@@Michael-bb5dd The only thing that's stayed consistent about Sonic is that he can go very fast. How he achieves it changes from game to game, and is not a vital part of the character himself.
Anyway, I could just as easily claim that Sonic's character was gutted when the focus shifted away from slope physics. Slope physics did define the gameplay of the first three titles after all.
@@rdococ
Except the other thing that's consistent is that Sonic's speed is due to HIS OWN ABILITY, not being due to whatever terrain he's on. His name is Sonic because he IS fast, not because his terrain allows him to BE fast.
They define THE CLASSICS, which are 2D sidescrollers, not Sonic as a whole like how Chaomix tries to claim here. To try and act like it does so just destroys a lot of what makes Sonic, well, Sonic, again, for the sake of making a niche thing an unnecessarily crucial and important thing to and about him.
If Sonic were all about momentum, he'd have been called Momentum the Moonrat.
Momentum should just be how one can USE their speed in a 3D Sonic game, not the source of the speed itself.
That is indeed ludicrous. Boost is means of gaining momentum, not replacing it.
Sonic was made a hedgehog, because they wanted a one button game. Jumping on enemies as a spiky ball made sense for a hedgehog. It had nothing to do with physics. The rolling idea came later. In fact, in the beginning, they were planning to make him a rabbit because rabbits are known to be somewhat fast. The plan was to use his ears like Ristar uses his stretchy arms, but the gameplay was too "stop and go", so they went back to the drawing board.
Also, while I understand the desire of momentum based physics, if any of these "critics" were to remove their head from their colon for a bit, they'd realize that Sonic's acquired abilities essentially make momentum pointless. This has been the case more and more since the spin dash was introduced. However, the boost and drop dash is what made momentum actually completely irrelevant. Take Sonic Unleashed for example. One of the most beloved "dark age" games. In that game, you run upwards on a clock tower. How do you think momentum physics would be implemented in that sequence?
Nice to see someone else that understands that Momentum isn't and never was the core of Sonic.
@@darkhorse744 momentum was set dressing for a game which you'd replay over and over as fast as you can. It's a pretty well known fact that the idea came from one of the devs wanting to get over with the first Mario level as quickly as possible. Speed is actually the core of Sonic's identity, if the name wasn't enough of an indicator. The rest were products of their time and the tech available back then.
Why insult people for their taste in virtual blue hedgehog game? Momentum go brrrr
@@rdococ I'm not. I'm insulting them for having meltdowns and generally being toxic pricks on Twitter, over the series progressing past their childhood memories.
@@Hynotama Oh, I know, Sonic is basically Mario's child in that sense.
Name of course is a tell, as well as Green Hills' checkerboard racing pattern terrain.
"I'm gonna say the M-Word"
"THAT'S AWFUL -RACIST- YOU CAN'T SAY THE M-WORD"
Sonic Frontiers Rated M for Momentum
11:35 I know we talk about Force a lot, but I think the habit is a bit _too_ ingrained.
I love momentum I go fast like bonic
Real
bonic?
Bonic binted?
Waiting for a new game called Sonic Momentum now.
I’m sure Frontiers have momentum
And here I thought this video would be referring to Sonic’s controversial max speed
That feeling of being shooting up on ramp in sonic games are sooo good. I agree that you need something to speed up instantly. That's why spin dash came out isn't it? How about add drop dash on 3d environment? That would be fun
Sonic Frontiers has the drop dash.
@@LittleLexi24 nice
I love how i immediately knew this would be ab momentum
The drop dash gained momentum down hill, lost momentum on flat areas, and swiftly lost it uphill
In which game?
@@HOTD108_ Sonic Frontiers, the drop dash is faster than the boost when you use it down hill
Eh. You didn't quite nail the topic. The boost games have momentum and slope physics. It's just not as deep as the classic games. The M topic deserves the critisicm it gets because people don't understand that, which is just the basics (quite sad).
I got the m word pass.
No Momentum should not come back and there is a solid reason SEGA and Sonic Team stopped using it. The reason being that it is far to easy to break 3D games with the combination of it and the sheer highspeeds Sonic reaches it makes it to easy to make jumps that break 3D level design or send yourself so high up into the air that you spend more time flying over the stage than actually playing it. This is the same reason why Tails and Knuckles had gimmick play-styles or were nefed in Rise of Lyric, it's to easy to break 3D games. There however is another true core component to Sonic games that all the people shrieking about Momentum ignore and that is Flow every single Sonic game has had it's own Flow from the Classic's to the Boost games. This Flow is never truly the same and learning each and every single games Flow is how you truly come to love them. Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic and the Black Knight, and Sonic Forces are all amazing games when you learn their Flow from the mission objectives in Shadow to using the Perfect Hit in Black Knight, to the general level design of Forces. This Flow is the true core of Sonic it was never Momentum and never will be the core just a tool used to make the Flow and it's a tool that can't work in 3D so new and better ones were needed.
Simply put, when utilised correctly I believe momentum is what can separate a great Sonic game from an excellent Sonic game.
To be entirely fair, the boost games DO have momentum, it's just not by any stretch spotlit by the level design or other gameplay mechanics. If you try to send Sonic around a loop at his bottom speed without boost, he can't do it. Same goes for big slopes, while running down inclines can be contributory to gaining speed a bit faster. If you really want to put this to the test, you can do so in the Wheel bosses in Sonic Colours. It absolutely is there, but you're less likely to notice it due to the incentive to boost and the easy access to it. If it wasn't there at all, then yeah, it would just feel bizarre and unnatural like Sonic Lost World, which absolutely didn't have momentum. I'd say momentum is essential but whether or not it's at the forefront of the game depends entirely on what they want to achieve with the game in question.
What was the last sonic game that had momentum as it's focus?
This was a great video to talk about what makes a sonic game, but I feel like momentum is still in the games but it's being overshadowed by other mechanics. still have to think about this...
So, when I saw the thumbnail and clicked, I was expecting this to be a video about "Mobius" so this was a pleasant surprise.
11:34 Oop, you called "Frontiers" Forces. Hehe.
The ONE positive thing about people having stolen the demo is that, if they at least don't leak the game online to be playable or spoil everything (and hopefully buy the final build of the game still), then at least give the game to modders to get a head start on modding quality of life improvements for when the game comes out in case any PC players want the game.
But is that something that can be done if by chance the demo isn't for PC? Then again if they're spilling the file online then I guess it's the PC version. I know emulation wouldn't exactly work out. Not for a brand new game. I think? lol
I was so glad that the music swap mod was out like a day or 2 after Sonic Origins so by the time I got to Sonic 3 & Knuckles I was able to hear the MJ tracks and Hard Times' Ice Cap. lol
A good example of both boost+ momentum is spark the electric jester 3
Y’know whats weird, the all new revolutionary, big leap in the sonic series has worse momentum than the god damn ROBLOX SONIC SPEED SIMULATOR
the M word...
Mario? lol
*90s Sega vs Nintendo console wars PTSD intensifies
I think Sonic for peak gameplay needs Momentum, Speed, Flow, and Readability. Momentum was covered here. Speed is obvious. But flow is tricky too. That's about keeping up speed with skill and knowledge. Keeping going fast. That's why Marble Zone sucked, right? Too much not moving. Readability is important too, I think it's a problem in a lot of 3D fan games where it's hard to tell what's a shortcut, backup, bottom path, top path, etc from the main path. But when all four things line up? Chef's kiss.
With how sonic moves in frontiers trailer I think momentum is necessary because holy cow a bird can win him in a race without knowing it's a race
You talk about the boost mechanic being seen as replacing momentum but to be honest, you could make the same (in my opinion, poor) argument about the spindash.
Saying the boost games have no momentum is just entirely wrong, momentum is still very much in play in the boost games. You can slide down slopes to gain speed and you can boost jump up a slope to do a high jump, and there's lots of areas in levels where you boost off a ramp and that momentum flings you over a pit. Unleashed even had rail balancing.
Now that we have knowledge of Sonic's momentum in Frontiers, it would probably make more sense to define "Momentum" by how it is utilized.
Sonic doesn't use slopes as a method of gaining speed anymore, but he does utilize boosting as a method of launching himself as far as he can.
Funny. I always thought the "m word" was for "Maria" to trigger shadow. Heheh
Unleashed and Generations have momentum (Rails, downhill walking, classic rolling...) why did you displayed them while talking about games that didn't ?
I think an important detail to touch on, which is the reason momentum based gameplay disappeared from the series, is SEGA's reactionary behavior.
The lack of momentum gameplay isn't because it wouldn't work or that the boost is meant to replace it, but because SEGA simply wants to divorce themselves of the games that have it.
When an idea fails for SEGA they tend to throw the baby out with the bath water... Sonic '06 is bad? No more multiple characters or Adventure-style gameplay. Sonic Lost World is bad? No more parkour mechanics or spindash. Sonic Boom is bad? No more experimentation.
The biggest hurdle to getting momentum gameplay back is SEGA themselves, not any game-design decision or developmental issues.
Pretty much