UH OH, Devastating CGC Comic Book Resubmission. HUGE $$$ Loss
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- What happens when a $13,000 cgc 9.6 blue label comic book is resubmitted and returns a 9.8 cgc green label (qualified). How will this change in grade and label affect price? You'll find out as this video chronicles the nightmarish auction of the 9.8 green label.
**In This Video**
0:45 | An introduction to the Book, Startling Comics 47
1:55 | Auction as CGC Blue Label 9.6 and Re-emergence as CGC Green Label 9.8
4:56 | Keston's Guess as to How CGC Green Label 9.8 Affects price
8:23 | Auction Countdown
9:45 | Aftermath of Auction Disaster
**Do you have more information?**
If you have more insight about this situation, please reach out to me. I'm speculating on what I think "might have happened" based on publicly available information. Happy to hear other perspectives and happy to correct any mistakes.
**Acknowledgements**
Images of comics from Heritage Auctions (Ha.com) with the following exceptions.
Marvel Comics 1, 9.2 Pay Copy (Comic Connect)
Startling Comics 47, 9.8 Qualified (Comiclink)
Action Comics 1, (ComicConnect)
List and Images of Startling Comics 45-53 (Comic Vine)
Thanks for stopping by the channel my friends! -Keston
What I find funny is all the people who love cgc will still give the company a pass. If this had been PGX the internet would have exploded in the comic book community.
Hi WLC. Great to see you buddy! I still think CGC runs the tightest ship among the grading companies but they indeed are not infallible.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 Bear in mind they hired alot of new workers recently. Not saying this excuses possible mistake like this obviously.
From personal experience on submissions, their inconsistency on grading, lack of quality control on slabs and slow times have led me to stop grading. They have damaged comics as well with their terrible pressing service.
@@ryebaldy8479 Human being make mistakes but as a company when you make a mistake that costs thousands of dollars to someone else then yes you should do something to rectify the issue. Especially if you have Guaranteed as the big selling point of your business. And WLC is right even if it was CBCS it would the community would be talking about how bad they are
CGC definitely should not get a pass on this. The original 9.6 grade without noting the missing coupon was egregious.
I believe the real question is, why can't the buyer get their money back? The nook was misrepresented at the original sale.
When they cracked that slab, don't you wonder if they noticed the missing coupon before resubmitting? I personally don't own a Golden Age book, but I'd still be tempted to gently flip through it before resubmitting it. Great video.
Thanks Fenimore. Good point. They may have noticed the missing coupon...and, perhaps they contacted CGC at that point and worked something out.
the fact cgc bares no responsibility for their error and the customer has no recourse against them is ridiculous and further confirms my estimation the company and the process in general is largely a racket.
Great video, gives one pause about cracking open "big" books. I believe that book was last owned by Worldwide Comics and they had it on their website briefly before the CL auction. They explained it exactly as you said. They bought as 9.6 and later it came back as green. They didn't sound happy. Regardless, it was a great deal at 3.6k not so much for WW. It'd be good if CGC takes some financial responsibility on this.
Hi Samuel. Great to know. I'll see if I can get in touch with WW. I've done some business with them before. Seem to be good folks. And, I'm also not trying to demonize CGC. Mistakes happen, and they rarely make mistakes as egregious as this. I'm just hoping for a good resolution.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 I agree, Worldwide Comics has been great with tight grading. I picked up lots of good books from them over the years.
Even if cgc says they will own it, they will go back to the original submission, look at the declared value and most likely pay $800.00. That's likely what it was subbed for. Then buy it back for that. Now that's one way to take a book to zero. The sellers best bet is to take the lose on taxes if they were a business.
This is great production and narration. Thanks for the charts the examples and graphics. Love your story telling. Keep it up ❤
Thanks Metal Bum. I've been doing fewer videos but trying to focus on the production. Thanks for noticing my friend!
No matter what they say, I will never ever believe that CGC has three separate graders look at any book.
Loved your presentation. Great video. The risk of cracking a book out of a slab far outweighs the gain. Improving a comic is not a guarantee. While I trust my ability to grade my books, I will find myself more often than not changing my grade slightly later because I either missed something or decided that I was too harsh with my grading when I took the first pass. Either way, a great story here that you've shared. Appreciate it!
Hi moneyball! Good to hear from you. Some folks have success cracking out books. I’ve done it a time or two for a consignment but rarely.
Hello, Keston. Long time no see. If you had won that book would you have had it resubmitted? In the overall scheme of things the kid who cut out the coupon and got the Dick Tracy wrist radio probably had years of fun with it and enjoyed it more than anyone who might have owned the book today be it a blue 9.6 or a green 9.8.
Rocketfighter!! Great to hear from you my friend. I probably would not have resubmitted it. That's an amazing nostalgic way to look at the situation!!
What a massive burn. That sucks for that flipper
That's a tough loss for the person who paid $12,000 initially. I had a CGC screw-up myself on a slabbed Showcase #9 I got from Heritage. It was described as having a married interior text page. When I received it, I cracked it out and found that the text story page did not match what it said in the Grand Comics Database. It was actually the story page from Showcase #6. I contacted Heritage and returned the book.
Hi blinky. That's interesting. Thanks for sharing and I'm glad you found out. I'm a realist and know that mistakes will happen with something as complicated as grading a comic book. When a book is say a typical 4.0, it can probably be evaluated relatively quickly. BUT...when a restoration or qualified situation occurs, I'm sure it slows down the process. It makes me wonder what type of time constraints the graders are under. Ideally -- it seems to me -- if a married page is identified, it should also be verified that is the correct married page.
I would never miss it but I can see it happening, great video bud
This is a great example of why I will NEVER crack a case for a press or whatever. The original submitter got a gift when CGC missed the coupon. Should have left well enough alone.
Hi Bradford. I'm not much of a case cracker myself. Cracking and resubmitting always carries a risk; most folks don't factor in a missing coupon as part of that risk.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 it’s crazy CGC missed it the first time. I’m guessing the buyer/seller is up the creek with any kind of CGC refund. I don’t know if you ever did an update…
Hello Keston it's your XELA pal Tom !
Glad you dodged that bullet ! Whew !
I have been waiting for your video so I can tell you that I started up my channel in December. The artwork on some of my dad's Programs might not be XELA "like", but Artist R. Vrooman, Larry Tisdale, and Lon Keller are no slouches.
I do alot of page turning in my Shows, (which I did not plan on doing when I started my channel), when I saw you opening up your Startling Comic I was astonished ! I know comic paper is more fragile than the paper used in Gameday Programs and yet I still stress out when turning pages while showing my Dad's collection. That was really cool of you to go so far as to open up your copy make your point. Wow ! I don't know if I could have done that. My hats off to you.
As Always, great and entertaining to watch ! Take care K. Peace
Tom!! Great to hear from you my friend. I'll have to check out your channel, and congrats for starting one. Haha, it's funny you mention opening up a book...I'm always scared to do it. The book I opened was perfect though. It's about a 4.0 and the page quality is nice: Off-white to White. So, some gentling handling is not likely not going to hurt the grade.
If this was a PGX graded comic most people would be accusing PGX of not a mistake but some sort of scam.. Why should CGC get the benefit of this being called a mistake? I am asking the question I am not saying this was your stance on the matter. I believe this should be looked into by someone trust worthy in the industry that has no ties to the outcome. Great video. Very interesting situation. Thank you.
Keston - your videos are a lot of fun and it really comes across how much you love these books. Videos like this, tho, make me glad I only collect raw books.
Hi Brian. Thanks for the kind words my friend! Yeah, buying slabbed books is not risk free. Although, I will say in my 10 years of collecting this is the weirdest incident I've ever seen. CGC is good, not infallible.
Great video. Seller is unfortunately out a lot more than 9k due to commissions (10%), press/resubmit costs, fees, shipping, time and opportunity costs of the potential the 9.8 value. All because the coupon was missed.
Hi Will. Exactly. That has to be disappointing. I'm hoping the seller is a big time dealer and has won more than he has lost across resubmissions, and it's a "cost-of-doing-business" kind of thing. If it was someone who just purchased the biggest book of their life, then I would feel worse about the situation.
New subscriber from Denmark, really like your delivery and your production.
Already looking at your old video's.
The story in this is just wild. I'm amazed people are willing to risk a 9.6 grade of such a book.
Dan T! Thanks for the kind words my friend. Glad to have viewership in Denmark!
Where have you been? Please never take such a long break between videos again. Just kidding, great video as always.
Hi Shane. Great to be missed!
Great video! This is a new story in the cracking and resubmitting comic world we live in.
Thanks Cowbell. Love your Cap Shield!
It's kind of unforgivable that no one recognize the missing coupon twice before submitting. Checking each page is just the basics in restoring and submitting. At that price point I would definitely attempt to marry a coverless copy's last page in exchange of the cutout page.
Really enjoy the content and very interesting story with a lesson for everyone. Surely CGC has to take some responsibility for this especially when the book is so rare and distinctive! Thanks for posting.
Thanks ComicCollex!
Watching this video instills straight fear. I recently bought a Wow Comics issue graded CGC 9.6 (with an older label) from a known collection. It is the single highest graded copy registered. No real idea if it could garner a 9.8 with some treatment, but no way I'm willing to take a chance with an 80 year old book. When it comes to certain rarity or super high grade, it's kind of a "name your price" territory and I'm just blown away to have "the number one" copy.
Hi Paul. Congrats on a great book. Isn't it awesome to own something so pristine from the golden age? I have the mile high copy of Exciting Comics 62, which is a 9.6 in an early blue label. It's the highest single copy and might benefit from a press. Actually, I'm not afraid of CGC missing a coupon. My guess is that would happen less than 1 out of a 1,000 times. But...it's so easy to accidentally damage a book when it's cracked. Plus, it's a book that will likely stay in my personal collection til I die :-)
The original sender shouldn’t have to disclose a missing coupon, that’s what cgc is supposed to be looking for. I’m surprised and disappointed that cgc would miss something like that on such a high dollar book 😳 This and other issues documented on the cgc forums make me wonder if there really are multiple graders looking at each book
HI Brooks. I'd like to learn more how the grading process is broken down too. Is it multiple people checking at all steps or just multiple people checking at some steps. For example, do multiple people look for completeness? It would be interesting to find out. Even with multiple evaluators, some things would likely slip through the cracks but a coupon seems bizarre.
Hey buddy - would you mind providing the exact editing software you used for this? Good stuff!
Hi brother. WeVideo. I started knowing NOTHING about video editing and found it intuitive.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 Well dang, I'll be checkin' that out!
There are many more reasons not to crack a 9.6 Golden Age comic - Firstly, that 9.6 grade was assigned at a point in time... the book could have been stored in less than favorable conditions (heat, light) for 20+ years since it was slabbed. Page color could have declined dramatically in those 20 years. Then - the person who cracks the slab, the postal service to the presser, the presser themselves, the postal service to CGC, CGC themselves, and then the postal service coming back the owner. There are hundreds of real-life stories about comics that have been damaged at each and every one of these steps and hand-offs. Oh, and when CGC damages a book, they slap it into a slab and send it back to the owner as if nothing happened - so one would need a video of the condition at every step along the way to have even a remote chance of getting CGC to compensate you). Personally, I'd never mess with a 9.6, but that's just me.
Great Analysis D. Doughtery
Excellent video! I've gotten a lot of CGC slabs that I wondered "How in the world did this comic get this grade?". Luckily, it's never been on a $12K book, though.
Yeah. I rarely buy raw books over $500 for that very reason. Thanks for the kind words PBales!
A case of "when crack and resubmit goes wrong". Ouch! Great video, and I pity the fool who ate 10K.
Thanks Matt J. Yep, most of the time folks get rewarded...but there's also downside risk!! Most folks who have been in the game long enough -- including myself -- have been a hero and a fool. :-)
@Keston's Old School Comic Books we've all made mistakes and profitted and lost... but i hate to admit that a guilty pleasure of mine is watching top tier "l's". Im a horrible person.😆😇
I don’t collect comic books at all yet I discovered this channel and can’t stop watching it lol
Thanks JC. Means a lot!
I mean you go to a place like Heritage and pay all the premiums that come with graded books to avoid this exact thing!!! What a kick in the gut for that original buyer!! Basically worst nightmare scenario
Hi Jacob. For sure, this is a kick in the gut. If the book was consigned to Heritage as the blue label 9.6, I don't think Heritage carries any of the blame. They are relying on the CGC label to be reputable.
Hey Keston, Big fan of the channel! Maybe this is related to the whole CGC problems that are happening now? Thoughts?
Hi Luke! Great to hear from you. Good question. It's a different situation in the sense that there was (very likely) an initial grading error by CGC. They gave a book a blue label when it should have been green b/c of a missing coupon. The mistake wasn't uncovered until someone popped the book out of the book, likely pressed it, and then resubmitted it. Then it received the green label b/c the latest grading team accurately picked up the missing coupon. I think this was VERY RARE situation for CGC. I've never seen them overlook a missing coupon. The alleged scammer instead was using an existing label and outer shell of a blue label book with a similar-looking but lesser value book in an inner sleeve. CGC was then asked to reholder...so an inferior book was re-slabbed in a universal label. See Automatic comics for a full description :-). Happy New Year, My friend!
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 Happy New Year to yourself and your family! I hope 2024 brings great things to your channel. I wanted to ask you about your opinion on some things? Could I DM you by chance?
@@lukebaker717 Hi Luke. IN the about tab on my channel, you can find my e-mail. Happy to hear your questions.
keston can ask a question what is the value on a wonder comics # 15 in a nice 6.0 grade i thought i would ask you because you really know this hobby and what books sell for i have been searching for a wonder comics # 15 but pretty hard to find plus i am not sure what the actual value of a # 15 would sell for
Hi Tim, The values of these books have fluctuated quite a bit. A 5.5 sold for just over 3k in February 2023. Single copies of a 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0 each sold for just over 2k over the last year or so. In 2022, three 6.0 copies sold for 2.2 k, 4.5k, 5k. In November 2022, a 9.0 sold for about 6k. ...long story short... Anything under 3k for a 6.0 would be a good deal. I wouldn't pay more than 4k. Another option. Prices seem to be compressed in the low to mid-grades. If you can get an 8.5 or a 9.0 for under 7k, I'd take that before a 4k 6.0. BTW: The Schomburg airbrushed covers are definitely my specialty :-)
"I would gladly trade my 6.5 in for a Qualified 9.8, and I think anyone else would too." Think again. I'd take a Universal 6.5 over a Qualified 9.8 any day of the week if the Qualified book had a clipped coupon. That clipped coupon is a complete deal breaker. The book is incomplete. The only way I'd take a Qualified 9.8 over a 6.5 would be if the green label were due to a detached centerfold-and even that's iffy.
Hi James. Thanks for the comment. Good point. Yeah, green can represent so many types of defects: from.a missing centerfold to a detached centerfold, married pages, missing coupon, etc. How these defects "hit" a collector varies considerably. For a buyer, it's good sense to read the notes to see how offensive said defect is to you.
I don't put anything on the first guy. He turned it into the place for grading and they made the error. I personally would never crack and resubmit such a huge book because this kind of thing could happen. Really sucks for that guy. CGC should make this right.
Thanks for taking the the time to comment. Tricky issue for sure. BTW: Stopped by your channel. Interesting and well produced content, Kevin!
Wait...this comic has only 24 pages? I didn't know any regular comics in the Golden Age had less than 36.
Yep, that's right. In fact, the Canadian edition only has 16 interior pages!
I agree with everything you said except that the person who submitted the book bears some responsibility. This is 100% CGC’s problem and should own up to this. Especially a book at this level. A 9.6 should never have made the grade with a coupon cut out. I would be extremely pissed off. The only reason no one made this into a big deal is because it was a big comic dealer. I thank you for bringing this to everyones attention.
I think the faith in CGC makes it where they have the largest burden in this and I also think the person who sold it as a 9.6, if they were the person who handled it raw and knew, also had some responsibility related to it. The person who sold it, if they knew, still transferred ownership for an item that they knew was not as represented. They took advantage of CGC’s mistake for their gain; we can say “buyer beware” or “not my problem” all we want but it is still a person selling an item that they knew was flawed. This is different than someone getting a grade bump because CGC was being generous. If this person submitted a book knowing part of a page was missing, and it comes back not reflecting the green label, they thought they won the lottery. Since the case is sealed, at that point they were perfectly fine harming everyone else along the purchase chain until someone was left holding the bag.
@@jwayne4225 sorry but i disagree. This is you kindly taking the responsibility from the “ Professionals” and passing it on to the guy submitting the book. Everyone is hoping for the higher grade and everyone receives books if they submit enough books that every now and then will say to themselves “ i cant believe this got a 9.8”, or a higher grade they were expecting. They didnt then say to themselves well I better send this back to CGC and have them look this over again. No they said ill take it. It is not often that someone cracks out a 9.6 Golden Age book.
I really dont understand how you can give CGC a pass when this is their job and their reputation. Trying to say it is the submitter’s responsibility is ludicrous. As professionals it means they did not do their jobs properly. They did not count every page and they did not inspect every page until the second submission. I dont see how anyone can disagree with CGC not being the responsible party for this situation.
Thanks for starting up this interesting conversation R. Murgo. I do think that CGC bears considerable responsibility. The comic book community is literally relying on them for their judgment and gatekeeping. However, if someone knowingly submits a book with a problem and doesn't acknowledge that...then why should they be cleared of all blame b/c of CGC's mistake. Humor me with this thought exercise: Imagine someone forges a complete copy of Amazing Fantasy 15, and CGC doesn't catch it as being counterfeit. Later it is discovered to be a counterfeit. Should CGC take some of the blame? Absolutely! Does it absolve the original submitter from blame? Absolutely not. That person knowingly passed along a bogus book. What are your thoughts?
Hi JWayne. Well said. Here's another take on this. Let's go back to the late '90s before CGC and I was a comic book dealer who knew about the missing coupon. A customer picks up a the raw Starting 47 and gently handles it and says. Wow, this looks like a NM complete book, how much do you want for it? Wouldn't I have the responsibility to disclose the missing coupon?
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 I understand your point but what you are all missing here is that CGC once they started this business and labelling themselves as the professionals removed all of the burden from the collector and took it upon themselves. I dont understand how you can not see that. Thats like me designing a building handing it to the architect he does not review the plans they build the building from my plans and the building collapses. Who bears the burden there? Obviously the architect because he is the professional.
hmmm I hear about this happening a lot from CGC. ...It happens to often....It makes me wonder... Is there foul play going on in these situations or does the top rated company actually miss something like this regardless of the 3 sets of professional hands the book goes thru in the grading process? Typically an auction house will demand the book be graded before auctioning it off. I don't know.... it seems like to many things are lining up here.
Hi Rogue. Thanks for the comment. It was definitely unfortunate. I should have included that I have watched just about every big time auction for the past 12 years and this is the most unusual thing I've seen from CGC. Most of the companies that stay around for a long time have a vested interest in NOT making huge mistakes and NOT letting foul play infiltrate their businesses. It's important for them to acknowledge when there are problems, address them, and try to improve their processes moving forward.
There is so much wrong with this... starting with the greed of getting a golden age 9.6 and not being satisfied. Second, on what planet is a comic with a coupon cut out a 9.6 or 9.8? Certainly not by Overstreet standards. Here's what I think happened IMO; the book was submitted by a large volume CGC dealer and the grader looked the other way on the coupon cut out figuring no one in their right mind would crack a 9.6. Even if not on purpose, if CGC (or Heritage, who basically sold a fraudulent item) didn't make it right and refund the buyer some money, I'd sue them for fraud. It's their job to review the whole book and assign a grade. A comic with a coupon cut, especially where it affects the story, should be a Fine at best. Overstreet says VG. I'm also baffled that you would consider selling a solid 9.0 for a book that says 9.8, but everyone (proven by the low bid on Comiclink) knows that it's a damaged comic. But everyone can collect what they want. I know you love CGC, but I think they have ruined this beautiful hobby (I've been collecting for over 50 years).
Ouch, so many people complain about PGX making this type of mistake. This goes to show that even CGC can make this kind of mistake. It makes you wonder what else did they miss.
CCG! Thanks for commenting my friend. Yeah, it makes me wonder too. Still, I think this is the exception rather than the rule.
How can it get a 9.8 when it’s incomplete? Don’t they immediately downgrade some books for not having the inserts?
Hi Brendan. The green (qualified) label is somewhat controversial. The rationale for it and the other labels can be found here: www.cgccomics.com/grading/labels/
Always enjoy your videos, hope to see more soon..
Hi Jesse. Appreciate the kind words my friend!
How the hell did it get a 9.8 at all with writing on the cover. That's insane.
Hi Angus, Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment. Writing on golden age covers typically isn't treated as a defect. In fact many collectors like it because it can help determine provenance of the books. CGC has a nice section on pedigree books, many of which are identified by writing on covers. www.cgccomics.com/resources/pedigree/
Awesome video, just subbed great channel !!!
Appreciate it Miguel!
Cool! So now they literally raised the value of the two remaining CGC9.6. That 9.8 is now the dog. If you are curating all Blue, the goal is now 1 of the 2 higher priced books on the market, if they come to market anytime soon. Your 9.0, it's a good-looking book. This is not the first time someone has cracked a book form CGC (becoming more notorious regardless of the shenanigans at PGX) to only get gut punched. Now that they are also not adding notes or notes on the labels, you have a scary moment if you CPR.😱
Hi JC. Yeah, good point about the two remaining 9.6s.
If I noticed it after cracking...I would have bought a lower grade copy and replaced that page. Comic book surgery.
Can you imagine cracking out a rare golden age 9.6 and you would have had to look through the book to see that, right? On a book of that value, CGC should have been more diligent in examining the interior of the book.
HI Jim. Agreed. It's one thing to miss a coupon on a $100 book, quite another on a "$10,000" book.
How on God's green earth could a professional grader MISS that a coupon was cut out??? That's insane and almost malfeasance on the part of CGC.
Cgc missing that coupon being cut out is like a brain surgeon missing a person’s skull
Ha...that's a funny analogy Mazzter. My intent for publishing the video wasn't to slam CGC but rather look at an interesting case. I don't expect CGC or any of the grading companies to be perfect, but they do have a responsibility to continue to refine their processes to reduce the probability of mistakes. Surgeons have amputated the wrong limb before and pro golfers have missed one foot putts. :-). From my perspective CGC has been the most consistent among the grading companies and rarely makes a mistake this egregious (if I'm interpreting the situation correctly). I'm hopeful that CGC maintains its standards and can keep improving its quality control; it's good for the hobby to have trustworthy third-party graders.
I agree, I see an ethical issue where the cgc did not notice the coupon missing.
So supposedly cgc always states there are three people who checked each book and all three miss that?
@@WeLoveComics yes, it sounds strange.
Thanks. Yeah, and I would be curious to find out if CGC was notified of the mistake (I'm guessing they were) and how they handled it.
CGC should have caught the missing coupon the first time they graded it but its good they caught it given a second chance by the greedy resubmitter, haha! I despise all this petty crack n press crap so im happy to see it bite someone in the ass on ocassion.
Hi Jon G. Yeah, I think that's a good take. CGC might have known that this book had been submitted before and realized that they had made a mistake. And, instead of doubling down on their mistake (purposefully ignoring the missing coupon) they did the "right" thing by flagging the book and giving it a green label.
The coupon is opposite a story page and takes out a piece of dialog. So not only is it incomplete, it affects the story.
Thanks, Jeremy. Do you own a copy?
@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 Not anymore, but I found a scan every page online.
Great video. Hope everything works out for the seller.
Appreciate it Adam. Yeah, me too.
The grading fee for a blue label would be over $300. I know CGC claims to use the same process for all tiers, yet justify charging more money for the same process, however you would think they would pay a little more attention to walk-through books.
Hi Comic Padre. Yeah, I'd like to find out more about this too. I would hope CGC pays more attention to a 5 figure book than a $100 book.
I personally think qualified grades should be reserved for restored books only. The reality is regardless of how good the book's cover is it is still missing that coupon, and in the 50 plus years that I have been collecting, buying and selling comic books a missing coupon from a book drops the grade to Fair (that's a 1.0) and that is what the book should have received a fair 1.0 blue label. It's just one more reason that I dislike grading companies in general and CGC in particular. It makes me wonder what the difference a Blue 1.0 label would cost the owner compared to that Green 9.8 label.
Hi Kollecting Kaos. Definitely understand that point. I've given the concept of the "green label" some thought. I originally hated it for the reasons you give. On the other hand, many 1.0s are 1.0s all the way through. The corners are rounded. Creases abound. Big spine splits, etc. Then you have something like the Startling 47 in question. Virtually perfect...except the missing coupon. Should this book be lumped in with the typical 1.0? For me, as a buyer, I like the extra information. It says...it's beautiful but wait...there's something weird here. To each their own. Thanks for taking the time to comment my friend!!
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 You can upgrade a comic based on the overall condition of a comic, for instance I have several comics with subscription creases that would otherwise be near mint/mint. so the grade should be a Very Good, but because the rest of the condition is so spectacular I would bump them up to fine. In the case of the Startling Comic, While it should be by all rights a fair by virtue of it missing the coupon, I would not be apposed to seeing it graded at a GD/VG provided the missing coupon is annotated. Giving it a Mint grade is totally out of the question though. The reality is that it sold for what I would expect a VG copy to sell for and I think that in and of itself speaks volumes. The bottom line for me is that a "QUALIFIED: grade is nothing more than an attempt to make the comic seem to be better than it actually is and the Qualified label should be done away with and proper grading be instituted for those books.
Not unheard of to get a different grade. You got about 20% chance of getting a different grade.
Personally I don't see how a book with writing on the cover (unless it's an autograph ) gets an 9.8 or a 9.6 anyway. Coupons cut out or missing pages shouldn't be qualified . It should go against the grade. Just my opinion.
HI Jason. You've named a couple very controversial topics. I believe CGC treats writing on a cover differently if it's a golden or silver age book than bronze or more recent. I know quite a few golden age collectors who like writing on a cover because it might relay provenance. I've grown to like it myself but I know it's not everyone's cup of tea. Yeah, I understand the green label but it's hard to understand the edges of when a book is poor, 0.5 (b/c it's missing content) versus when it is green label. Personally, I agree with green in this case. However, I dislike the green label for books missing centerfolds. To me that should be a poor (too much missing). Thanks for sharing your opinion, my friend!
I'm glad you dodged a bullet on this one. That would have been heartbreaking. I'm kinda surprised it went for as low as it did. Someone definitely got a deal. I hope the buyer keeps and loves this book because it is still such a great piece in anyone's collection. Great video!
HazelDan! Hope you are doing well my friends. Same here. Regardless of the grading drama, it's a world-class book. In a sense, 9.8 qualified is exactly right. A uniquely preserved specimen (only 9.8 for Startling 47) with an unusual flaw.
Could be that the buyer from Heritage didn't crack the case himself but sent it tp a presser to do that, just another possibility. Also CGC WTF! Its not like they missed a small spine tick!
Hi Joe C. Definitely. A number of ways it could have gone down. Yeah, I think it is probably a 1 out of 100,000 or 1 out of a million mistake for CGC. Rare and exceptionally unfortunate.
This is also an example of "who gets to audit CGCs work?" And what does 9.8 qualified really mean? The covers look like a 9.8. The page count is correct, and the page color looks right for its age. But it can have a coupon cut out. Weird.
Hi Michael. Yeah, I think one of the toughest parts of grading a book is treating "weird cases." Some folks would say that if a large part of any page is missing then the book should automatically be a 0.5 b/c of the incompleteness. On the other hand, it's a 9.8 excepting a missing coupon. The green label tries to (no pun intended) qualify this. Who makes these judgments though? I'm guessing Matt Nelson (CGC president) provides some guidance. Certainly not easy...I would be curious about this too.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 I don't think there can be anything weird above a grade of 3.0. Especially not a 9.0+. My understanding was that any book with a one inch + section missing in a page that did NOT impact the story pages was a 3.0 at the highest. Missing a section from a story page made it a 2.5 or lower. It cannot be a 9 or greater or the 0.2 increments have no meaning.
Qualified grades shouldn't even be a thing. If the book is a 1 because of a defect then it's still a 1 regardless of how nice the rest of the book is. It's like a Scooby-Doo mystery, "And I would have gotten that 9.8, If it wasn't for those meddling defects!!!!" Just a scam to get more money from submissions. Would not be surprised if this book was graded with a blue label first time around because it was submitted by an auction house.
Hi Lance. I'm thinking it was an honest mistake, albeit an egregious one. Thanks for your comments on the green label. Many people share your view. I'm hoping to make a video on the topic later this year. I've got mixed feelings about the green label and haven't fully clarified my own thoughts about it. A video gives me an excuse to dive in more deeply.
A deep dive into the history of the green label would be a great episode?
CGC never seems to accept blame. As long as they keep making $$$ and growing they won’t care.
Funny your wearing a hulk shirt when the green monster of greed killed the value of this book. I don’t think I’d ever gamble a 9.6 trying to get a 9.8
All CGCs fault in the first place. A grader didn’t notice a missing coupon?!? Also, how did the presser not notice the missing coupon?
Hi Agent DeCamp. Hard to know when the missing coupon was first spotted after the blue 9.6 was cracked.
I won’t be submitting anything worth more than a few hundred dollar with CGC anymore.
The guy should have had CGC crack it and press clean and regrade it. I doubt CGC send it back in that blue label
I use to be a fan of CGC during the early days. Still have a slew of books with the 1st gen labels. As of currently i only try to buy raw. If slabbed it will be cracked out of the slab as i know we are in the minority. I have a slabbed Action Comics #9 but coverless. Bought like that for a great price. It will be cracked open to be read and enjoy. Plus will add NOT marry a beautiful high quality replica cover to it. We READ everything from the Platinum Age to some Modern. My son don't mind slabbing the extra high grade copies as higher liquidity in the future when or if we decide to sell it all one day. Please take a peek at our channel as we have a slideshow format of comics from A to Z. Even a beautiful replica of Motion Picture Funnies Weekly to enjoy as it sits. A great placeholder til i find one again :-) AGAIN not against slabbing as we do have many slabbed books. We collect in pairs. A high grade copy and a raw reader copy to enjoy. We don't read digital. Nothing beats the smell and tactile newsprint feel of a vintage book in hand. Again IMHO :-)
Hi Misfit! For high value books, I like to buy them slabbed and keep them that way. Like you, however, I do enjoy the feel and smell of a raw book. It's so cool that you and your son can enjoy the hobby together!! The "paired collecting" is an awesome best-of-both-worlds approach.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 I know would be awesome to have a coverless Suspense Comics #3 and a beautiful slab mid grade one. Be sure to check and subscribe to our channel as you can view raw books with us:-) I revised the Motion Picture Funnies Weekly with music and close up on certain beautiful panels by the great Bill Everett.
I believe I'm already subscribed my friends. I look forward to seeing more of your content.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 Thanks. Hopefully we can face to face one day and talk comix not only me but my son. Feels good to be passing those wonderful paper history hobby down to him.
oh my so you mean PGX is not the only company that makes mistakes CGC dropped the ball on this one a coupon and it looks like it effects the story
R. Murgo. I really appreciate the conversation starter here!
Greed for the original buyer who cracked it.
How would a 4.5 green label translate to a blue label?
Hi Christopher. Excellent question. It's a case by case situation. For example, a green label book missing a centerfold would be a 0.5 by blue definition. Perhaps if it was missing a smaller interior piece then it might be somewhat higher. For green, you always want to read the details: many shades of green so to speak.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 my situation might be a little different. It is the three-dimensional glasses that were included in EC's Tales from the Crypt three-dimensional from 1955. I think there's like 75 on the senses and 12 of them don't have the glasses. Cgc gave me a 4.5 green label and I would have preferred a lower blue label
How can it get a 9.8 green label or NOT if a section is missing??
Qualified implies this is the grade it would be if it didn't have the issue, or in this case the coupon missing.
Qualified shouldnt even be a thing. Its soooo dumb! Maybe my 1.8 can get a 9.8 qualified that it didnt have the damages that it has.
Hi Coco Rain. Thanks for the comment. Yep, Ryan answered the question!
Thanks Ryan!
Hi Jon G. Yeah, I imagine the green label was invented for books like this one. From a technical blue-label perspective, maybe this books would be at a 3.0 grade b/c of the large piece missing from the interior. But, a blue label 3.0 just wouldn't convey this story accurately. Enter green label :-). I like and understand the green label designation, but understand the objections to it.
How did this book get a 9.8 with that mark on the right under the numbers? Also that date mark doesn't look small and inconspicuous?
The original submitter has no blame even if they know it was missing a coupon. It is not incumbent on the submitter to do the job of the grader. The submitter isn't the one guaranteeing the book. C"G"C the G stands for Guaranteed. If you had a book graded and CGC clearly undergraded and you told them they wouldn't take your advise and bump the grade up a bit.
I think CGC and Heritage auction should bite the bullet on this one what good is a guarantee if you can prove they messed up and they do nothing about it. Heritage at the very least could refund the buyers premium even though they had no way to know that CGC was wrong they were still selling the book as a complete copy and it wasn't.
Hi Mike. Thanks for the comment. I'm hoping folks came up with a reasonable resolution. I know CGC doesn't want these kinds of mistakes happening nor does HA want to sell misrepresented books. Both have best-in-class reputations in the field and that's perhaps their most important asset to protect.
No sympathy for the buyer
Two people messed up here. CGC the first time it was reviewed and encased, then when the second reviewer cracked the case, worked the book and failed to inventory/review the book.
Who does CGC trust to crack this case, assess a book, and then report back to CGC that they messed up the first time? As in the fine art world, no one should pay over $1000 without having the comic book appraised.
Hi Michael, I do think CGC does a nice job, in general. This is the most egregious mistake I've seen in 10 years. CGC is the group that is the final word (I think). Should there be an oversight group for 3rd party graders? I'm not suggesting a group trying to expose every flaw....just a group that tries to keep the graders consistent and gives feedback...and is available to the public. Thanks for commenting!!
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 Egregious - a good word. But this can be tolerated on a low value/high print count/low grade book. It should not have slipped by for this example. If multiple people in CGC checked each others work on this high value book, then multiple people messed up. CGC equals the final word... CGC is involved (because this was an encased book), and buyers relied on their grading to help determine value. Does CGC owe money to a buyer somewhere down the line who discovers their mistake in over rating the book before it went in the case where it can no longer be inspected? Every one likely made money, except the last person who discovered CGCs mistake. They lost.
If you want to be the last word, then you need to strive for a six sigma error rate.
Do you have any updates
Hi Wilson. No, haven’t heard anything else.
first off, you dodged a bullet. secondly I wouldn't want a green label and if it reaches 5k I'd be surprised. I'd take a purple mod over a green any day. Clink sucks when consigning GA...they dont bring close to HA prices
Hi DB, Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I've consigned with Heritage, Comicconnect, and CLINK. All have done relatively well for me. HA, perhaps a little better in terms of price.
His book went from a blue label to a green label now he loses about 50% on that book😔
Hi Richie, It does appear that way. I do wonder when in the process -- after the book was broken out of the 9.6 blue slab -- when someone noticed the missing coupon. And, how it was handled. Was CGC notified before it was resubmitted to be regraded as the 9.8 green label?
If that was a PC buy, good on that guy! Prettiest copy in existence, with a label that more appropriately matches the colors of the book, and gives it a massive discount! Never Qualified purists lost out!
Hi Mario. Agree. It’s a beautiful book!
CGC screwing over the comic industry, one comic at a time
Ugh! What a nightmare!
Jame! Hope you are doing well my friend!
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 Doing well! I just got a book I know you'll love. Stay tuned for the unboxing tomorrow. 🙂
@@DragonInkComics Sweet! Please say it's not Adventure 40 3.5. If so, I was the underbidder!
@@kestonfulcher4529 Close, but not quite. 😉 What did the 3.5 go for?
@@DragonInkComics 31k.
It proves CGC is not better then the other companies they can all make mistakes so how do any of us know beyond as shadow of a doubt that our graded CGC books are what they claim to be? We don’t know and can not truly know.
Hi Gregory, Thanks for the comment. From my experience I do think that CGC is the most consistent but they surely are not infallible. We can be fairly confident in the grade that CGC (and in many cases other 3rd party graders provide) but that's different than 100% confident. Indeed, there's some margin of error across the millions of books graded.
How in the hell do you miss a pie e of a page of a comic book missing epically If that is your job, you look over a comic book with a fine tooth comb.
Hi Andy. Yeah, surprising to me too. A mistake of that magnitude is ultra-rare I must say. Strangest thing I've seen from CGC in 10 years of collecting.
How did CGC miss this the first time
Yeah. That's my wondering too. From my experience with CGC, this seems highly unusual. I bet 999 out of 1,000 times the grading team would catch the missing coupon. Maybe they were rushed that day?
Cgc makes many many mistakes as does cbcs. I crack several a year and all for my pc. Sometimes I whine on board or forum but always suck it up as nothing you can do but buyer beware. They are especially bad at disclosing paper quality. They are awful at assessing. Btw always enjoy your show.
Thanks Scott for the kind words. Yeah, grading is certainly an art. It's tough to get reviewers to agree and it is tough to be consistent over time. I still like CGC and think we as a community are better off than without them. They of course are not infallible.
Lawsuit
I have a hard time feeling bad for the buyer when they were trying to squeeze a blue chip for a big payday. It’s a high risk/high reward play, and their greed bit em. No one feels bad for the gambler that takes their already huge stack and bets it all on black, only for it to come up red. You coulda walked out with your money one minute ago.
today there are no ethics in business
CGC should be totally at fault for this. They grade it and don’t do it thoroughly!! Imagine taking your car to a mechanic and when you said check everything they forget to fix the brakes and you end up getting in a accident who’s at fault now?
Kryptonite! Hope you are doing well buddy. Yeah, it's a weird situation if I interpreted it correctly. I understand a book getting messed up during handling of pressing or even grading. That's a risk we all take when handling books. And, I think the CGC folks are more careful than 99% of people out there. But this mistake is an egregious one (and VERY rare). I hope CGC can make it right.
Hey Keston doing well and good to see a new post Fromm yah.This is a strange pickle the buyer what he did. After seeing something like this I wouldn’t feel a little hesitant on cracking a book now. This def should never have happened. We put our trust and faith into getting getting our books taken care of from Cgc and if something like this unfortunate thing happens it come soon down to CGC to fix this prob. But on the other hand he cracked ir himself which makes it a difficult situation also.
I would have thought $8000
Hi, Paul. I thought it would go for a bit higher too. Thanks for commenting!
The book is a 1.0, don't get caught up in the qualified nonsense.
CGC is liable and if sued the plaintiff would be rewarded at least double the amount he paid for the comic book; at least.
too much confusion in this hobby, just google any question and you get a hundred answers
Thanks for the comment,Bull. Do you have an example about a confusion point?
Greed
4:20. It does NOT "Beg the question." "Begging the question" is a logical fallacy wherein one uses their conclusion as a premise. This raises the question, brings up the question, leads to the question, or any other set of words that indicate that one particular issue leads to a second. Stop misusing this term.
That's not at all what happened....it's who sends it in, who you know. That would explain the so many over graded books out there.
Thanks for leaving the comment oztiks1. I certainly hope not. I'm hoping it is an honest mistake. Reputation is the most important asset a grading company can have.
@@kestonsoldschoolcomicbooks6842 oztiks1 is right. if you dont think some dealers get preferential treatment, you'd be mistaken
This is why I don't trust comic grading.
Hi Smoke. Thanks for stopping by my friend. I do think CGC and other provide a nice service, but infallible they are not.
Q-pon. 🤐