How Jesus' death proves that Hell is NOT eternal torment
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- This is an excerpt from the debate between Len Pettis and Chris Date on whether conditional immortality is biblical, recorded in 2016. Conditional immortality is the idea that only those who believe in Christ Jesus become immortal and will live forever, whereas those who are condemned to hell will literally die there. This was what many early church fathers taught, but since the time of Augustine the dominant view in the church has been that the lost become immortal in hell so that they can suffer eternal torment.
Chris Date argues in this clip that since Jesus physically died on the cross when he took our punishment upon himself, that means that hell must include physical death. If the lost never ever die in hell, then Jesus' death on the cross was not substitutionary - meaning that he actually never died in our place. But that is the opposite of what the Bible teaches.
The full debate: • Hell Debate | Chris Da...
Subscribe for more truth about Christianity: / @charismactivism
charismactivis...
Check out Rethinking Hell for more resources on conditional immortality: rethinkinghell...
Finally someone makes sense to me about what the results of sin will look like. The cross. Death. I can not understand how Christians so readily and totally accept eternal torment.
It's because they probably don't realize the gravity of what they're saying...try burning your finger and see how painful it is. For these people to claim this God is 'loving' yet sentences people to eternal burning, solitary confinement and torture is pure sadism. Not even Hitler deserves eternal torture. Any monotheist who takes joy in saying people go to hell are obviously sadistic too.
@@Fleckyou911 i agree, i was just ranting about it to God.
How sick and twisted and sadistic He would have to be to torture tens of billions of souls forever nonstop in unimaginable horrors. In a sea of lava, no water no food no rest no company. All day, everyday, burning burning burning.
@@moremusic868 exactly! In some ways I see it as blasphemy.
Its a variant of a cult.They don't actually believe in ECT.They may believe THAT THEY BELIEVE in eternal conscious torment.But they dont actually. I recently finally came to by senses at the beginning of the month.I now have true and honest love for Jesus instead of a fear based one.Its like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders.
We need to realize the Bible has no verse that says Jesus came to the planet to save people from hell.Matthew is clear that "He shall save HIS PEOPLE" from "THEIR SIN"
Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins that he might deliver us from this present evil world.
I spose cos it's in the scripture
The righteous live forever. How do the unrighteousness live forever too?
EXACTLY
How come the wicked do not live forever in hell. Sinners have sinned against an eternal God which is perfect. God is immortal so sinners in hell will live in hell forever.
They must learn righteousness?
@@nowayseriously So, will they live in hell forever, yes or no?
@@bigfan2452 no, sin is a separation from God, and God is life, so essentially you can’t “live” without God.
So basically, if Jesus bore "our punishment", but Jesus didn't suffer eternal conscious torment, then he didn't bear "our punishment", did he?
It's fascinating to watch them wiring their brains together to craft new post-hoc rationalizations designed to salvage the unsalvageable.
Sin is a payment we cannot pay and we must pay by eternal separation from God as it is spiritual death. Jesus’s death’s value is infinite because he paid for the sins of the past, present and the future
@@CrownlessRaven You're not listening are you?
It does not matter what 'value' is put on Jesus' alleged 'payment' if the whole transaction _is a different transaction from the one we supposedly ought to pay._
Put simply, if the wages of sin is (spiritual) death, then Jesus has not paid it, period.
If Jesus _can_ somehow repay sin _without_ (spiritual) death, then it means he _didn't_ bore the same punishment as _we_ allegedly do.
We can spin this however we want, the result is the same: Jesus _didn't_ share our promised fate, as things supposedly worked out differently for him. At no point did he experience what we ought to according to the Bible itself. Seriously, think about it.
@@lucofparis4819 he did pay with spiritual death. 2 Corinthians 5:21 “He who did know not any sin because sin in our behalf so that we can be righteousness of God in him.” Another verse that substantiate this is Matthew 27:46 “My God, why have you forsaken me?” The reason why he felt this was because he was separated from the father because he became sin.
@@CrownlessRaven - Do you think atheists will go to Hell forever after they die? Do you think JESUS went to Hell forever after HE died?
Jesus did not suffer eternal consciousness torment. He paid the full penalty for sin. The lost will pay for their own sin. They will die the death that Jesus died. Death after suffering.
Imagine thinking a being that invented such a system is worthy of worship
@@Nerobyrne he is worthy for he created YOU and all the wonders of the universe he is worthy all knowing and all Good god
@@y.b.m.a3393 bro, my mom created me and she's not worthy of my worship either.
Worship is a lot like respect:
You need to earn it.
It's time humanity remembered that.
@@Nerobyrne God created all of us and we were made to glorify Him.
@@andrewmartsch
1. Prove he did
2. Don't tell me what to do.
This is definitely part of why I have difficulty taking eternal torment seriously. Annihilationists (and universal reconciliationists, for that matter) have more numerous verses to work with and don't need to start redefining words like "death," "destruction," "perish," etc. to hold their position. Infernalists basically rely on unjustified inferences that the fate of the beast and his worshippers is the fate of everyone unsaved or that the fire wouldn't be everlasting unless the things thrown into it are themselves everlasting.
One argument I heard is that because Jesus was God, his death for 3 days was sufficient because he is an eternal God. While we have to suffer eternally for sin against an eternal God. But honestly, that argument makes no sense. If the punishment for sin is eternal conscious torment, and Christ took our place, then he didn't pay that penalty. If the punishment is death, then he did pay that penalty. Of course the resurrection is why we can only have victory over death in Christ. He is our resurrection.
The choice is between LIFE or DEATH. And DEATH is not LIFE somewhere really awful. Only the souls of saved ever become immortal.
Being from Greece, allow me to point out that the whole concept of Hell is a mistranslation of a word called Gehenna.
Gehenna is a valley in Jerusalem where they used to burn their trash and with some kings sacrificing their children there(now it's a park).
Jesus likened being sinful was like throwing yourself in Gehenna with the trash, he DID NOT in any way mean it as an afterlife punishment.
And like that, the whole concept of Hell is disposed in a similar manner, so the next time some half-crazed and overly-religious guy tells you that "you're going to Hell", tell him that you have no plans to visit Jerusalem(where Gehenna is).
What verse says that? Because I really want to believe you. I was raised as a Mormon, and then as a Christian and I deep down honestly think the concept of Hell is cruel. Even to Hitler, or Stalin.
@@Malachi_Padilla well, I can tell you that Hell was taken from Hel, one of the many afterlives of Norse mythology, which was meant to punish the dishonored dead.
However, it's not a lake of fire, so I dunno where that came from.
That could refer to the trash burning maybe.
@Glenn Ryan if you're worried it says in romans 10 11 anyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame if you're worried you should trust in Jesus' death blood and ressurection if you do that you will be sealed with the Holy Spirit and God will no longer count your sins against you
It still sounds like a threat. Doesn't give someone much of a feeling of love or hope as an incentive to follow Jesus. It sounds very authoritarian in nature.
@Glenn Ryan well if you are terrified then do something about that then get saved or you will end up in Hell and if you don't want to end up in Hell then you better get right with Jesus Christ before its too late
Even though every knee will bow, not every heart will submit or be changed. The very presence of God(a consuming fire)will burn all evil away forever. That's why Jesus said prepare your hearts for the kingdom of God because he's coming back and you need to be ready.
Amen amen. His presence will destroy evil forever. Unbelievers do not suffer in perpetual ongoing punishment forever. They will suffer God's wrath.
"he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." (Revelation 14:10)
They will suffer in the presence of God and His Holy Angels, and be in torment, and shall never have rest again. But this is only speaking of those who take the mark, because it give significance to this fact in the scripture. It's not speaking of those who don't take it who are unbelievers, it's speaking of those who do take it who are unbelievers.
He's been coming back for two millennia now.
Am I supposed to wait for the Great Crusade or something?
@Nerobryne, hes supposed to come back after the 6000 years since Adam, and the 7000th year being the millennial kingdom, or the millennial sabbath (time of rest, always done on the 7th day of the week).
Sorry, but no. The verse says that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Does God get glory from false praise? Does God like insincere worship? Does He like confessions that are not from the heart? No. Then why would people kneeling and confessing but not meaning it bring God glory. Jesus rebuked some people, saying that they praise Him but "their hearts are far from me". If unfelt praise was acceptable, then why did Jesus make this statement. The original Bible text does not say that every tongue will "confess" that Jesus is Lord. It says that every tongue will ACCLAIM that Jesus is Lord. Every person, at some point, will eventually outwardly and joyfully declare that Jesus is Lord. That is what the original Bible text says. Everyone joyfully praising Christ. THAT is what is bringing glory to the Father in this verse. God bless.
@@alwaysadawg6488 dawg, your private interpretation is not according to the Bible.
All the wicked dead, after being resurrected after the 1,000 years, will attempt to take the Holy City, but will finally realize that Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and will painfully admit to that fact, but their heart is not in it at all. Very soon after that fire will be rained on them, and they will turn to ashes forever.
Another point is that in the old testament they would sacrifice animals to pay for their sins but are the animals they sacrificed experiencing eternal torment I would sure hope not
Great point!
Religion is way to human centric
I love that last statement. "You can't separate the death from the wrath". Date - "I agree thank you". Mic drop. And this my readers of comments is why very few want to debate Chris Date on ECT.
How good isn't it to understand that:
"If you believe, you have eternal life" actually DOES NOT mean that "if you do not believe, you still have eternal life!"
The question has never been WHERE you shall live forever but IF.
The doctrine of the immortal soul and hell does not belong to the gospel, and is not to find in the original text of the scriptures.
It is greek mythology imported to the christian tradition during the medieval and unluckily has been embraced by a big part of christianity.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence.
@@Mike-qt7jp
The word "forever" is translated from the greek word aionos which means a period of time, not endless time.
Rev. 14:9-11 is about the tribulation and not the lake of fire.
patricj, Your words are powerful, and Bible-based.
God bless you.
@6:39 *Pettis:* _"You can't separate the wrath from the Death."_ *Date:* _"I agree. Thank you."_ Drops mic.
i'm new to this as of today. been a bible believing Jesus lover my whole life.. but last night I was telling my wife about all the wild things God has been revealing to us. And I looked at her and said what's next? And then I literally said, "don't worry, it's not like I'll stop believing in eternal hell or something" and then today someone presented this to me, and I started studying it and still am trying to figure it all out.. and just the pure common sense in this video alone.. just makes so much sense..
I think (my opinion), if there is such a place with eternal burning and one person out of billions went there, evil wins
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.
15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had ceased to exist, and the sea existed no more.
.
Praise God that even the lake of fire will be gone when God makes a new heaven and new earth!
Also, if the punishment is burning in flames, shouldn't He have come back looking like a burn victim?
This was a theological and common sense beat down.
That's a logical argument that I totally agree with.
Many has been led away from God because of the ECT doctrine. It's slander to God's character, straight up from the devil's mouth. He is an expert in twisting scripture and has been slandering God since before his fall. Of course, he's gonna attack God's character and make him out to be the most evil thing to ever exist and cause for God's children to depart from Him.
AGAIN, this is not what I say. This is Revelation 14:9-11, "He will be tormented with burning sulfur…And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is NO REST DAY OR NIGHT..." By the way the word torment is translated from the Greek word "basanismou" and if you look in a Greek concordance it means torture, pain, torment. It does NOT mean annihilate. If they were annihilated, the phrase, "...no rest day or night..." makes absolutely no sense. To be honest, I hope we don't fully understand God's mercy and those who are sent to the Lake of Fire are annihilated, BUT that is NOT what scripture says, in English or Greek
@@Mike-qt7jp so you're saying if someone were to be burned and no rest for DAY AND NIGHT FOR 10 YEARS, it's not torture then because there's an end? How about 20 years? 100 years? 1,000? Nope? Not enough torture for you? is the eternal fire of Sodom Gomorrah burning forever and ever still burning to this day? Is Jonah still in the belly of the whale since he was there forever? How about the ashes under our feet verse. Eternal desctruction. God being the only one who can destroy both body and spirit. The wicked and evill be no more verses. What did you think annihiliation was? Dying in an instant? Annihiliation is the ultimate destruction. Its a state of no longer are you gonna be brought up. No second chances. When you're dead, you're dead. Never to see the light of day again after your punishment has ran it's course. I will not stand for this ECT slander of a doctrine that came from the devil of my Heavenly Father and play into his schemes. If would not dare to call myself a follower of Jesus, a child of God saved by His grace if I don't even know His character and would rather believe what the enemy says about Him. I've been played before. Never again.
Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence.
This is NOT my opinion; it is scripture.
@@Mike-qt7jp sigh. Sure sure. Go ahead and continue believing in your interpretation of Scripture. But you can't make me. Go your own way. Clearly you didn't understand my words. Closed ears won't hear a thing. Even told you about all the over verses supporting punishment + annihilation but no, you're just obsessed with ETC doctrine. Can't help you there.
This is a silly argument. These arguments are based on logic, not actual Bible verses. ECT is based on Bible verses that specifically say that there is life after death, that there is consciousness after death, and that there is torment after death, and that this torment will last “for ever and ever.” (Luke 16:19-31, Rev. 14:10-11) No one is thrilled by that. No one is sitting around looking forward to vast sums of humanity undergoing ECT. It’s just what the NT teaches. I didn’t give the account of the Rich man and Lazarus. Jesus did. Blame Him if you don’t like it. But all this specious reasoning about the nature of the atonement mean absolutely nothing. You can’t just mark out Luke 16:19-31 or Revelation 14:10-11 because of some logical proof about propitiation and atonement.
I think this guy used "I don't understand" as a stall tactic because he knew he got cornered by his own words.
Good point/question. In other words, if the punishment for sin is eternal torment, and Jesus bore our sins, why isn't Jesus in hell right now, being tormented forever? I think is what the guy on the right is trying to say. To back up his point Romans says "the wages of sin is death", not eternal torment. Also, God told Adam "in the day you eat this fruit you shall surely die" not be tormented forever. So what theologians and preachers have done is redefine the word death. Rather than take it at face value they twist it and say that death really means eternal separation from God. Just like they twist many other verses, either out of ignorance or trying to save face or something.
Your words are according to the Bible, john. God bless you.
Man got none to say like he’s all crossed up. He got burned.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The wages of sin is death NOT eternal torment, don't add to Scriptures.
Jesus did not suffer eternal consciousness torment. He did however pay the full penalty for sin. The lost will pay for their own sin. They will die the death that Jesus died . Not ETC. But an unconscious death after suffering.
I am astonished that this RUclips channel went here. I agree with them about much, but this is a fundamental orthodoxy of the Christian faith.
If there is no eternal punishment for sin, then this walks very, very close to the Jehovah’s Witness cult belief system.
@@Jeremytorgersonofficial The eternal punishment is death.
@@Jeremytorgersonofficial there is eternal punishment for sin. it's called eternal death. the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23.
@@Jeremytorgersonofficial Nobody is denying that the punishment is eternal, what conditionalists argue is that eternal punishment does not consist of eternal life. The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23), only those who believe in Jesus will live forever (John 6:51). Hell is not something one survives, those who have rejected Christ will perish (John 3:16) and become ashes (Malachi 4:3). Their punishment will be like the destruction that was brought down upon Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 7).
Christians who have affirmed conditional immortality include Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Irenaeus of Lyon, John Wyfcliffe and John Stott. To say that we are "very close to the Jehovah’s Witness cult belief system" is like saying that believers in eternal torment are close to becoming Muslims. Engage with the Biblical support for conditional immortality instead of questioning the faith of your brothers and sisters!
@@Charismactivism I’m not interested in what some handful of contrarian theologians have said. Joseph Smith had a take on spirituality, too. As does Chris Yoon. Not interested.
I’m interested in what the word of God has to say, and what our Lord says specifically.
Jesus doesn’t talk about the lost simply terminating at death.
He talks about the lost being cast eternally into hell (outer darkness) where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth“.
The opposite of everlasting life is not "everlasting perishing" but PERISH.
Why did Pettis sign up for a debate against Date, a top notch debater, without even knowing what the the arguments of Conditionalism were? Date literally couldn't be more clear and it was as if he was speaking a foreign language to Pettis.
Pettis was actually pretty amazingly well prepared; this is the debate I point people to when they want to see something reasonably fair. You're right that this one part makes Pettis look completely lost; it's clear that he knew about this in general, but he wasn't able to do the usual redefinitions he was prepared to do due to Chris' careful, clear definitions.
Applause to Chris. In general I think he easily won this, and unlike some debates, I think his victory is actually significant; we can still learn from this exchange.
It's very easy to win a debate if you're a conditionist it's not hard at all. Because the arguments put forward for conditionalism are water tight and the arguments put forward for eternal conscious torment are terrible. that's said Chris is a great debater and very knowledgeable on the subject so, he should easily win every debate he has, on this topic anyway. I have heard him debate on other topics where he hasn't necessarily won.
People really want people to suffer in hellfire forever 😬
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Death not eternal torment. If you want to argue that the wages of sin is eternal torment you have to prove that either all people have an immortal soul or God will give the wicked an immortal soul. The gift of God is eternal life so why would God give the wicked eternal life.
Death as bible is concerned is a separation from God,
so Jesus in the cross although it was few hours(in physical world) he as eternal being experienced eternal separation from the father.
That suffering he endured on cross is more than anyone in hell can(because we're finite beings).
@@mkson1 Any evidence that death means separation from God according to the Bible? Wouldn't that imply a separation of the Trinity, so that the Father and Son in fact were not one for some time?
@@Charismactivism
Revelation 20:14-15 NIV
[14] Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. [15] Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Isaiah 59:2 NIV
[2] But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
Acts 17:27-28 NIV
[27] God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. [28] ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
So outside God we're considered not living which means we're dead, plus the fact that sinners will burn forever day and night as Jesus sayed, this means they will exist but not considered alive bcs they're separated from source of Life(God).
Did trinity break at some point?
- i'm not sure, why?
1) He still had his status as son
- Jesus still refered to God as Father on the cross ( Luke 23:34, 46)
But strangely when he cry and express his lonely ness he used word God instead of Father.
- Mainly because as God the father had to leave him, bcs he carried our sins and cursed for us
- But as Father, christ was still his beloved son, the same as we're loved.
Now let look at Jesus lonely moment on the cross.
Matthew 27:46 (My God why have you foseken me)
- he quoted (psalm 22:1-2)
- crying to God why he don't answer him
Now remember, on his eternal life with God, Jesus never experienced the feeling of being away from his father's presence.(never)
That's why that was the worst punishment for him(with that absence and pain, that was worst that HELL)
That's why he prayed on the garden if there is another way, bcs that was too much we ask from him. (matthew 26:42)
Now on the cross things get even worst bcs of his nature also.
on John 19:28 Jesus said ( i'm thirsty )
- here he quoted ( psalm 69:21 )
- now here although they thought he wanted water but he was thirsty for God so badly ( psalm 69:3 )
- we can also see the same desire for God in ( psalm 42:2-3 )
- which means the presence of God really left him, that was the first death he went through there.
UNTIL THIS POINT, HE WAS LIVING HELL ON EARTH.
also thinking about the very people he want to save, hated him. 😢
@mkson1 The lake of fire is clearly a metaphor symbolizing total destruction. How else can you throw Death into it? Rev 20:14 proves the lake of fire means destruction since Death can't be punished or tormented...rather it is destroyed. If Death is destroyed, then there are not people fully conscious experiencing a continual Death. Furthermore, existence fully away from the presence of God in some kind of vacuum is nonsensical since God holds everything in existence together. That contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:28 and how could God be happy and content forever knowing the forever anguish and torment of billions of souls. Jesus said few will be saved. Matthew 7:13-14 so it would make God into a total monster.
Jesus died for sins. He did not go to hell for eternity, nor was he annihilated. The wages of sin is death...which everyone will do.
As in Adam all are dying, so also in Christ will all be made alive.
Pardon, but our view is not that the wages of sin is annihilation; it's that the wages of sin is death. Christ DID die. And He also promised that due to His dying, believers will ultimately not have to die, "whoever believes in me, although he die, yet shall he live; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die." So you're not correct to say that everyone will die; those who have faith in Him will indeed fall asleep like Lazarus, but will be awakened by Christ in a resurrection to life (all of this is from John).
The verse you quote out of context is scoped in 1 Cor 15:2 to speak of those who are being saved, not everyone; your interpretation of the verse as speaking about everyone and comparing the number who die to the number who will rise misses the interpretation that the passage is actually speaking about the strength of death, which is on-topic because the previous verses were refuting some teachers who claimed that resurrection is impossible.
@@WilliamTanksleyJr I definitely believe there is prima facie support for your understanding. You connected the dots very well.
The question seems to be...if those who die in 1 Cor 15:22 are the same number that will be made alive. Basically, we are dealing with interpretation.
Considering that Koine Greek is so similar to English in structure, we can have word for word translations. Paul often writes in a parallel structure. This is 1 Corinthians 15:22 laid out in Paul's parallel structure. It works for every word for word translation I can find.
1) Consequently then / thus also
2) in Adam / in Christ
3) all are dying / shall all be made alive
The first question we have to ask is...who is dying in Adam? Well...everyone, as Adam is the progenitor of the human race. This definition of "all" must be synonymous when used in a compound sentence. Otherwise, in English, it becomes random, illogical, and incoherent.
For example, if I said, "I invited all of my family for a cookout and they all came", What is the scope of the first use of "all"? It's my family. If I were to change the scope of the"all" mid compound sentence to really mean "all" of my softball team or "all" of my coworkers, then you can see how my sentence becomes random and incoherent. Considering Paul is writing compound sentences in a parallel structure, I don't think he's a sloppy writer.
In fact, it would take an entirely different sentence to break the scope the first use of "all" in the passage, but Paul makes this impossible by stating "thus also" thereby linking his thoughts.
The Bible claims in the OT and NT multiple times that every knee will bow and tongue confess, so I believe in a predetermined event for all of humanity.
If you continue to read through 1 Corinthians 15 you will find that all will subject to Christ, and then Christ will subject to the Father, so that God may be all in all.
The reason I don't subscribe to your view is that it leaves God all in some, and I don't think that is what Paul is claiming. I believe Paul is laying out the relational status between God and mankind.
@@WilliamTanksleyJr Here is Paul's parallel structure again in Romans 5:18-19.
Romans 5:18
1) Consequently then/ thus also (shows Paul is writing compound sentences)
2) by the offense of one/by the obedience of one
3) judgement came upon / the free gift came upon
4) all men / all men
5) to condemnation/ unto justification
Romans 5:19
6) For as by/ so by (shows Paul is linking sentences)
7) one man's offense/ the obedience of one
8) the many were made / shall the many be made
9) sinners / righteous
Here again we see the word "all" is used in Romans 5:18. The first definition of "all" will determine the second in a compound sentence. It is clear Paul is stating that due to Adam's offense, all men came upon condemnation. This echoes 1 Corinthians 15:22 perfectly.
In order for the scope of the "all" to change, we would need an entirely different sentence, but Paul links his sentences/thoughts by stating "thus also" thereby linking his thoughts.
Same for the many in Romans 5:19. Who are the "many" made sinners by one man's offense? Literally everyone, as again, Adam is the progenitor of the human race. This definition cannot be broken mid compound sentence and remain coherent. The "many" must remain synonymous and coextensive. If Paul wanted to break the scope of the "many" he would need an entirely different sentence, but once again he makes this impossible by stating "so by" thereby connecting his thoughts.
Paul actually said the exact same thing three times. Once in 1 Corinthians 15:22, again in Roman 5:18, and again in Romans 5:19. I don't believe Paul is repeating himself by chance and I don't believe Paul's writing style is by chance. He's very detailed.
If you look back at the OT, the Jews had no concept of a partial Messiah. They still dont. This is why John the Baptist called Jesus the Savior of the world. This is why Luke states all flesh shall see God's salvation. That's very specific. So whereas I believe "all" is usually used in a limited scope and doesn't literally mean every single person, when a lineage is traced back to Adam it is hard to deny. When John said "the world" it becomes even harder to deny the "all" is limited. I would say it's impossible.
There eventually came a point where I had to admit one of two things, because Paul's parallel structure put me checkmate. I had to either A) accept the Bible conflicts and has different views on eschatology, or, B) admit I had a confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance to overcome (my dad was a Southern Baptist minister)
Regardless, I can see where you are coming from and I can see why you would form that conclusion.
I view the second death as more of a covenential death. Revelation is likely written after the destruction of the temple in 70ad. Considering no other text mentions a second death, and Revelation has over 300 symbols, it's possible John is referring to a covenential death. No temple, no connection to God. If it's the second temple that was destroyed, it could be referred to as a second death to a Jewish audience.
@@johndalton1043 - So my claim was that the context of this "all" is given by 1 Cor 15:2 to be those who are saved by the gospel; particularly those who hold fast to it. In contrast, you say: *the question seems to be...if those who die in 1 Cor 15:22 are the same number that will be made alive.*
I'll weigh that as you intended, but first, that isn't a reply to my claim. If indeed verse 2 did set the scope the way I claim, then of COURSE the numbers of the two are the same; they're all Christians who die, and all Christians who will be made alive. All=all, but it's "all those who are saved by holding fast to the gospel." I'll come back to this.
So first, let me talk about your claim: you're asking a question that is not an apparent question the immediate context is asking. Paul just proved that resurrection is not impossible. So the next logical question would be "how likely is something that's only 'not impossible'"? In that context, v22 is introducing the fact that resurrection is as powerful as death (all=all!), but in the future, not right now. This becomes more credible because it's actually the topic of the next section of the passage as a whole - to give the schedule for the resurrection, which will explain why we don't see it right now (and therefore answer why the people who claimed there's no such thing seem credible, but ultimately didn't have all the information).
So ... can you support from context why knowing the answer to _your_ question is relevant right here?
Now, let me quickly turn back to my claim, and look at verse 2 a bit deeper. It speaks of [the gospel] "by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."
To make this clear, let me compare the last two elements in v2: the two things that Paul says means you aren't being saved by this gospel.The final one he lists is "if you believe in vain," which he explains later to mean if it was all a lie, and God couldn't raise anyone at all (including Christ). This is indeed true: you aren't being saved if you're going to wind up benefiting from Christ in this life only and being the most miserable of all.
Do you agree with that? Then shouldn't it follow that Paul means EXACTLY the same thing when he adds that this salvation happens only if you "hold fast to the word I preached"? It would seem that by holding fast to what is true, we are assured of rescue from perishing in the sense Paul gives were the resurrection false. But that means that those who don't hold fast would be un-rescued in the same way that would happen to everyone if we hoped in vain. You see what I mean here?
Verse 2 is NOT a universalist passage! And the rest of the chapter is in that context, showing what it means to be saved. It doesn't have unbelievers in scope at all. Even when it says "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" it's speaking of God's enemies among the Powers.
V22, with its "just as ... so also" language, is an analogy, like the ones you see on tests. "Just as man is mortal, so also God is _" (answer: immortal). "Just as a fish swims, so also a bird _" (flies).
So like most analogies, it's not mainly about numbers. It's about reasoning between two situations. WE Christians are going to die in Adam, as verse 46-49 said, we are dust and therefore bear the image of the man of dust. It is not until later that "we will bear the image of the man of heaven." That will happen, according to this passage as a whole, in the future when we "will be made alive."
*If you continue to read through 1 Corinthians 15 you will find that all will subject to Christ, and then Christ will subject to the Father, so that God may be all in all.*
Well, first, there's no mention of unsaved humans here; the only enemies introduced are Powers and Death. But second, you miss the sequence. One by one all His enemies are put under His feet; the last enemy destroyed is death. Death is put under His feet precisely by being destroyed. It's quite clear that being put under Christ's feet means EITHER being made subject, OR being destroyed.
*The reason I don't subscribe to your view is that it leaves God all in some, and I don't think that is what Paul is claiming.*
That's cunning and cutting, but it's less an exegesis than a slogan. In this context, the "all" doesn't include the Powers or Death, and they're the only enemies mentioned. So in context, the point God being all-in-all refers to this submitted kingdom, not to those who were destroyed because they wouldn't submit - at least it doesn't refer to death.
@@WilliamTanksleyJr Like I said, I see prima facie support for your position. However, you haven't addressed the parallel structure of Paul whatsoever, and he wrote other letters.
Here is the parallel structure of Paul in Romans 5:18 that echos 1 Corinthians 15:22
1) Consequently then / thus also (links his thoughts)
2) by the offense of one/ by the obedience of one
3) judgement came to / the free gift came to
4) all men / all men
5) to condemnation/ unto justification
Romans 5:19
6) For as by/so by (links his thoughts)
7) one man's offense/ the obedience of one
8) the many were made/ shall the many be made
9) sinners/ righteous
Break it down in context. The "all" must be synonymous. There is no other way it works in English. Same for the many. Who are the many made sinners by one man's offense? Literally everyone...and that definition must hold true in a compound sentence.
I have an honest question. Would you be willing to Google proof texts for your position and stack them against proof texts for Christian Universalism? I did this for every view of Christian eschatology because to be honest with you, I wanted the truth.
Here's why. There are over 50,000 different Christian denominations...and over 100 different English translations of the Bible. And they all claim exclusivity. So....would you be willing to stack the evidence?
For example...Luke states all flesh shall see God's salvation. And I know, whether right or wrong, people will parcel out the definition of "all". But when John the Baptist claims Jesus is the Savior of the World, then the "all" becomes impossible to parcel out.
So whereas I do see prima facie support for what you are saying...and I do feel like your position is Biblical...I think if you are willing to stack the evidence and Google "Christian Universalism scriptures" you'll find it requires a lot of scriptural gymnastics.
The first school of Christian theology was in Alexandria where they read, wrote, and spoke Koine Greek as their native language...and they were avowed Christian Universalists (Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa who was also an editor of the Nicene Creed). If you look at the earliest Creeds, they believed in the judgement and life of the age to come.
“Not just a physical death.” Christian apologists always resort to special pleading.
Glad someone caught this. You are exactly right. Underrated comment.
If Jesus death was the substitute penalty for sin, why did Jesus say “It is finished” on the cross BEFORE He died? Why didn’t He say it after He rose from the grave?
Read the context, John 19:28. He's not saying that the gospel was finished; He's saying that His fulfillment of the Scriptures was finished, and so His work was done; this meant He could rest.
Each of the gospels presents the crucifixion of several OT scriptures, mostly centered around Psalm 22. It's in this context that Christ is speaking of the work of being crucified, during which He knows to expect specific things.
So of course there's more to come; 1 Cor 15 says He still has to be buried and be raised. But those aren't His work.
In light of this, then, I think it would be prudent for you to weigh Chris' argument here - that Christ had to die, not just be tormented up to but not including death.
Quite simply he couldn't have said it after he died. But note the moment he breathes his last the temple curtain was torn into signifying that the way to god had been opened. Jesus death was the payment for sin.
Man... Watching this just reinforces how problematic ect is
Great video! Exactly what I have been saying. This Lee guy was either being dishonest in that he didnt want to admit what was being said or he's an ignoramus! If the Wages of sin is death and Jesus died then that was what th ed punishment was! If I am sentenced to be hung by the neck till dead then Jesus would have to be hung by the neck until dead! If the punishment is eternally living in hell then Jesus would have to be eternally in hell including today now and forever! These liars and deceivers are slimy slippery snakes death is not death hs died " spiritually" yet they say spirits cannot die!! INSANITY! He also does not (because hs cannot) give any scripture for "Spiritual death" it's a made up lie found nowhere in scripture!
Great clip!
We can't pick and choose which scripture we like and make us comfortable and not consider the others. Everything has to be done in context through the teaching and revelation of the Holy Spirit.
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46
Yes, all of those three passages agree with Chris that the final punishment is the denial of eternal life, that the wicked will instead die.
Note the words second death and Destroy. And those are the verses you chose which actually support annihilationism.
Take note kids. This is what it looks like when somebodys wrong and knows it but still trys to stick to their guns 😂
Jesus warned of eternal hellfire over 40 times. I rebuke this false doctrine from the pit of hell in Jesus's name. Repent before it's too late.
I'm fairly open minded but none of us will really know what happens until we pass away. Given that fact we should all be grateful for the lives we have, yes i believe in the afterlife but let's cherish what we have now
False. The Bible tells us all we need to know about life / death after death.
Universalism leads to this view that you have.
@@thecarlitosshow7687 Universalism = Catholicism
Catholicism teaches ex cathedra, not the Bible.
@@seanthebaptist7688 catholic means Universal. Which stems from Eastern Orthodoxy. What I meant to say was universal reconciliation
1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
The total victory of Christ has the answers to universal reconciliation, and it’s biblical, the word Aionon is used for ages past and future, and that’s the word they used for eternal.
Jesus also did not suffer eternal death, now did he?
He suffered temporary death.
So now what?
Death could not hold him but he died as we are destined to die. The difference is he was raised from the dead after dying just like believers will be raised from the dead at the resurrection. He was the first fruits of the resurrection. The wages of sin is death and those who do not Rise Again will indeed die forever but that does not require Christ to die forever to pay the price for our sins. It only required him to die. Death is a one moment act if you like it occurs at a Moment in Time. Eternal conscious torment is something that goes on and on forever. Of course the result of death if not reversed goes on forever but the act of dying doesn't
This guy knows full well what Chris is getting at and where he is going with his argument. He is just playing dumb because he knows he has no answer.
Who to believe? Man or God's Word? I'd choose God's Word.
41Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life (Matthew 25:41-46).
8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than [f]to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. Matthew 18:8
Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:45,46
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering-since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. II Thessalonians 1:5-10
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Jude 7
If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 14:9-11
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [a]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 and in verses 14 & 15
Nurse, so we see from the Bible verses you quoted that the fires of hell will be burned out one day, and their effects only will last forever.
.
Let's stay close to Jesus!
Jesus did not die "in our place". He was predestined to be sacrificed before the beginning of the world.
No one will be consumed unto nonexistence. That word "death" does not mean complete termination from all existence. Death for the lost is defined in Revelation 20:14 Then Death (Mortal Death) and Hades (Holding Place) were thrown into the lake of fire. *This is the second death, the lake of fire.*
Please think about the logic of what you're saying. You are saying that God made a holding place (Hades) that has existed for the past 6000 years just to hold souls who are going to be consumed anyway on Judgment Day.
Christ taught that, for the lost, the real purpose of Judgment Day is to determine levels of ongoing torment. *You don't think so? Well, read here what he said.*
Matthew 11:20
Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. *But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you.* And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. *But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”*
If souls will be consumed to nonexistence, then it wouldn't be more tolerable for some groups more than others as Christ taught. The Lake of Fire clearly has levels of torment and in God's mercy he is allowing one last opportunity on Judgment Day for the lost to make yet one more plea for a more tolerable punishment.
The reason that the Antichrist, the False Prophet and Satan are all thrown straight into the Lake of Faire is because those three will not be allowed to plea for a lesser sentence. They will be given the greatest level of torment forever and ever.
You degrade the incredible sacrifice of Christ by denying his great deliverance from the eternal Lake of Fire.
Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence.
Luke 16:22-24 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.” Notice the rich man is NOT annihilated but rather in torment in flames. He can feel pain, he can see, he can have a rational conversation. How does this in any metaphorical sense point to annihilation?
As a universalist, I have to say that this is a terrible argument that could easily be turned into a good argument. But your point that "sinners don't face a physical death", well yes they do. We all die. What do you mean "they don't suffer a physical death"? Everybody dies, literally everybody. What you have to ask pertains to spiritual death, which not everyone goes through.
While Christ died on the cross, He absolutely did NOT cease to exist. NOT even for three days.
Nobody said that. He died, and that's the punishment for sin.
@@ABC123jd the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense.
@@MB777-qr2xv
Isaiah 34:10
It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
This is describing the destruction of Edom.
How can a spiritually dead person die spiritually?
Spiritually dead means not having the connection to the spiritual life found in God, in Jesus. Spiritually dead people are those who have not reconnected to God by Way of Jesus sacrifice on the cross.
@@benjimack6968 - well, yes, so why would the Bible say they'll die, but you claim that has something to do with dying spiritually? Don't things have to be alive in order to die? Notice that even Rev 20:5 says that people "come to life" before they undergo "the second death."
A quote from the pre-write-up to this presentation is as follows:-
Quote // If the lost never ever die in hell, then Jesus’ death on the cross was not substitutionary - meaning that he never actually died in our place. But that is the opposite of what the Bible teaches.// end quote.
I think I’m correct in saying that the actual quote above isn’t from Chris Date, but I think it’s pretty safe to assume it sums up his given position in this short clip. That being the case, it would seem that Mr. Date falls foul of his own argument. If Mr Date believes that at the final judgment, those who are annihilated cease to exist physically and consciously [i.e.] cease to exist in its entirety, then Jesus’ death cannot be substitutionary simply because, if he is God, which Chris does believe, he only died bodily while still “remaining alive” consciously. In other words, Jesus doesn’t die in its most complete sense, unlike those who fail to attain immortality.
Peace
...*it would seem that Mr. Date falls foul of his own argument. If Mr Date believes that at the final judgment, those who are annihilated cease to exist physically and consciously [i.e.] cease to exist in its entirety, then Jesus’ death cannot be substitutionary simply because, if he is God, which Chris does believe, he only died bodily while still “remaining alive” consciously.*
In making this claim you depend on the Son avoiding death. You cannot be correct here, though; Phil 2 tells us that the Son (who was God, remember) took on flesh and submitted to death.
Proposing that He took on flesh and then submitted the flesh to death doesn't encompass what Phil 2 says. It was the One who descended who died.
When you reason about Jesus's divine substance, you are correct that did not die. But this doesn't mean His Person didn't die. I would propose that this is actually the reason for the hypostatic union; the Person was dead, and yet all of God's nature needed Him alive. Christ was therefore able to take up His own life again.
*In other words, Jesus doesn’t die in its most complete sense, unlike those who fail to attain immortality.*
There are ways in which Christ's death is not like that of the wicked; for example, they will be burnt up and He didn't even see corruption. But the death itself IS the same, and this is the basic common element of how the Bible puts it - a life for a life, death for death.
That can't even be answer for one thing what you're asking doesn't make sense and is very confusing
These men are conflating (1)Jesus's payment for our sins with (2) the eternally damned consciously and freely choosing to turn away from God forever.
Jesus didn't pay the full penalty for our sins merely by suffering. Why did He die? Because He CHOSE to die, (1) to prove He was God by rising from the dead, (2) to glorify God, (3) to prove how much He loves us (4) to give us an heroic example to follow, (5) to offer Himself eternally in worship to the Father so that we can also offer Him to the Father in the holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
But I observe you do NOT affirm that in eating His flesh and drinking His blood that we therefore will live forever, rather than dying. In that you disagree with your predecessors St. Ignatius:
"... obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but [which causes] that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ."
And St. Irenaeus:
3. For as the heaven which is above us, the firmament, the sun, the moon, the rest of the stars, and all their grandeur, although they had no previous existence, were called into being, and continue throughout a long course of time according to the will of God, so also any one who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance. The prophetic Spirit bears testimony to these opinions, when He declares, "For He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created: He hath established them for ever, yea, forever and ever." And again, He thus speaks respecting the salvation of man: "He asked life of Thee, and Thou gavest him length of days for ever and ever; " indicating that it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved. For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: "If ye have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great? " indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.
The traditionalists can never answer these questions.
Is he dodging the question or just that dense lol. Its not complicated. Jesus didnt go to hell for eternity to cover my sin. He died on earth and that was enough. So why woulf the punishment of a person who did not accept jesus go beyond what he payed. As in everlasting. Thats beyond what jesus paid.
4:21 that’s it. Case closed. Not a fair substitutionary atonement.
Some ppl believe that the bodies are annihilated and the disembodied soul is tormented forever.
Actually hundreds of millions christians believe so. God's word does not say so, though.
Matthew 10:28 Fear Him who is able to destory BOTH body and soul in Gehenna (often translated as hell).
Yeah, it's pretty strange what people will claim to believe in order to preserve a theological system in a debate. Don't worry, they'll go back to believing that body and soul are punished together when they're not debating a conditionalist.
5:26 okay the actual death maybe wouldn’t be necessary with regard to atonement, but the death still could serve the purpose of showcasing the resurrection/hope/divinity etc.
‘the third leg of the stool’
The main point of his argument is, referred to the third leg of the stool: since Jesus did not suffer for eternity when he paid our penalty for our sins at his death, paying the legal requirement for our sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:12, and 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), the lost will suffer forever but die only.
“conditional immortality is the idea that only those who believe in Christ Jesus become immortal and will live forever, whereas those who are condemned to hell will literally die there”, is a presupposition that only those who are saved gets immortality.
This third leg of the stool “idea” is decimated in John 5:28,29 and Revelation 20:13-15, Revelation 14:11.
According to Chris, in the full debate ruclips.net/video/yj-ZigqfwZU/видео.html, at the 105:01, he says “I am completely neutral regarding the intermediary state…I believe in something that is often characterized as soul sleep…my whole case is completely independent from that”, and at 105:54-106:22 mark, where he completely fails to answer anything adequate and sufficient regarding what Luke 16:19-31 teaches.
Here, Chris said “my whole case is completely independent from that“ attempting to circumvent what the Scriptures clearly teach. This statement of Chris: “often characterized as stole sleep” is the crux of the matter, not just pointing to texts where Christ died, then presupposes by the word ‘death’ in texts he quote, there is nothing beyond death: death is death.
We are not made of one part but of three: body, soul, and spirit: (1 Thessalonians 5:23), (some say they’re two: soul and body); We have ‘a body’, no debate;
We have a ‘soul’:
O.T., Genesis 2:7, job 14:22, Ezekiel 18:19,20, Psalms 104:1, 35 ch. 103:1 bless the Lord, O ‘my soul’ Hezekiah’s song Isaiah 38:15 ‘my soul’, Psalms 16:10, Job 33:18 ‘his soul’ from the pit, Psalms 89:48 deliver ‘his soul’ from the hand/power of the grave; N.T. , Jesus: mark 14:34, Isaiah 52:12; and people: Mary’s song: Luke 1:46 ‘my soul’; Acts 2:27, Revelation 6:9 ch. 20:4;
Looking at the spirit:
O.T., Hezekiel’s song: Isaiah 38:16 he says ‘my spirit’; job 6:4 ‘my spirit’ drinks in their poison, job 17:1 ‘my spirit’ is broken, Psalms 143:4 ‘my spirit’ grows faint within me; N.T., Mary song: Luke 1:47 now she says ‘my spirit’; 1 corinthians 14:14 ‘my spirit prays’, 2 corinthians 2:13 ‘my spirit’ was not at rest, 1 Peter 3:19 ’PREACH TO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON; Hebrews 12:9 ‘Father of spirit’.
Psalms 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
Psalms 16:10 & Acts 2:27 my soul
Genesis 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
“man became a living soul”the word for soul is נֶפֶשׁ nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
www.studylight.org/interlinear-study-bible/greek/genesis/2-7.html
Here, shows the word נֶפֶשׁ soul
Also, this has the Septuagint which is the Hebrew Bible/O.T. written in the common language at that time: GREEK.
This showing the Greek word ψυχὴν psychēn which means “soul”
Jehovah witnesses, possibly others, say the soul ceases when you die and you “know not anything”, quoting Ecclesiastes 9:5
Job 14:21 and 22 ANSWERS this objection
21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. 22 But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his SOUL within him shall MOURN.
www.studylight.org/interlinear-study-bible/hebrew/job/14-22.html
The word וְ֝נַפְשׁ֗וֹ “soul” is the root
www.studylight.org/interlinear-study-bible/greek/job/14-22.html
The Greek word ψυχὴ “soul” I present even though some of the translators didn’t translate it, literally.
Parables parabole: a parable, comparison
3850 parabolḗ (from 3844 /pará, "close beside, with" and 906 /bállō, "to cast") - a parable; a teaching aid cast alongside the truth being taught. From paraballo; a similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage -- comparison, figure, parable, proverb.
Parables are teachings of life or death experiences of Jesus; it conveys the truth which are for us to learn; Christ Jesus gave and desires his disciples and us to understand the parables he put forth; these parables were explained or expounded to his disciples for to know of the mysteries of the kingdom of God.
Matthew 13:34-35 is a quotation from Psalms 78:2
2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Matthew 13:35 KEPT SECRET from the foundation of the world. The Greek words kruptó: to hide or conceal; it is hidden to the multitudes, children of Israel, but these parables are made known or expounded to his disciples.
Matthew 13:10-11,35-34, 51-52 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. 52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Mark 4:13,33-34 13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? 33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. 34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
If there is no suffering, after death, why did the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 was in torments and suffering?
If the rich man lifting up his eyes in hell and being in torments, how could you say after a person dies, there is nothing?
Lazarus and the rich man had in COMMON, according to this parable without adding or taken away this teaching from Christ; they were BOTH DIED; one, Lazarus was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the other, the rich man was buried: lifted up his eyes in hell being in torments, wishing that his FIVE BROTHERS won’t come to this place of torment.
Or the souls who are under the altar of the Lord, who were conscious and aware that those who killed them were on the earth (Revelation 6:9-11)? This is depicting the same parable concerning Lazarus and the rich man, and Samuel the prophet being brought up by a medium.
According to Christ, at the 105:01, he says “I am completely neutral regarding the intermediary state”, and at 105:54-106:22 mark, where he completely fails to answer anything adequate and sufficient regarding what Luke 16:19-31 teaches.
If a person dies of natural death or killed by someone that person will NOT CEASE to EXIST; hence, the point here is not to fear what man can do (to me)( Psalms 118:6) but fear God alone (Matthew 10:28):
2 corinthians 5:6-9 verse 6 and 8 is CONTRASTED; if we are “at home in the body”: ALIVE, we are not with the Lord (physically); however, if we are “ABSENT FROM THE BODY”: DEAD but one’s SOUL is PRESENT WITH THE LORD.
2 corinthians 5:6-9 ( 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Philippians 1:21-23 21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better.
In the book of Luke 23:42-43, the one malefactor repented and Jesus told him “Today you shall be with in paradise”; the malefactor will be in paradise, without his resurrected body; thus, that “Today”, prior to Christ’s resurrection along with the old saints, (I don’t think the malefactor or criminal was resurrected), this criminal was alive for the soul and spirit lives forever.
Luke 23:39-43 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, TO DAY shalt thou BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.
The word absent ekdémeó 1553 means: to be away from home, absent
1553 ekdēméō (from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 1218 /dḗmos, "a population, people") - properly, out from home, i.e. with the outcome of being absent ("away from home"). It only occurs in 2 Cor 5:6-9.
1553 /ekdēméō ("being absent") portrays believers who are still alive as being "away from home" (heaven), i.e. because still living in a mortal, physical body (2 Cor 5:6).
I'm sorry I found this so late (it's been a year since you posted). I can offer an answer that doesn't depend on disagreeing with your belief about the soul; in particular Chris' view of "he preached to the spirits in prison" is about the angelic beings imprisoned by eternal chains (see Jude and 2 Peter 2), but although I think that's probably right I also believe that Christ actually preached to the souls of people in every part of Hades, and in particular I interpret Luke 16 as being an experience a rich man might have actually had.
*The main point of his argument is, ... since Jesus did not suffer for eternity when he paid our penalty for our sins at his death, paying the legal requirement for our sins ... the lost will suffer forever but die only.*
Yes, that was the main point of his argument, and you diverted from it to a completely different discussion.
“conditional immortality is the idea that only those who believe in Christ Jesus become immortal and will live forever, whereas those who are condemned to hell will literally die there”
*is a presupposition that only those who are saved gets immortality.*
No, that's a definition of the view Chris and I hold. It's not a presupposition, but a conclusion.
*This third leg of the stool “idea” is decimated in John 5:28,29 and Revelation 20:13-15, Revelation 14:11. *
You claim that, but then change the topic and never make an argument for it.
John 5:28-29 expressly proves Chris' point, by showing that Judgment doesn't happen until the resurrection of the bodies of all the wicked and the righteous; the entire rest of your post is predicated on the mistaken belief that Judgment happens immediately when we die. Matt 25:46 also expressly disproves your false claim, by showing that "eternal punishment" doesn't even begin until the wicked leave the Judge at the final judgment.
Rev 20:13-15 has to be interpreted by God's explanation that the lake of fire is the second death; it's not interpreted that death really secretly means the lake of fire.
And Rev 14 doesn't mention either; it's about torment, but gives no span of time for it (as opposed to saying that the smoke from the torment rises forever, the same as how the smoke from Babylon will rise forever but Babylon was destroyed in an hour and will never be found again).
*Here, Chris said “my whole case is completely independent from that“ attempting to circumvent what the Scriptures clearly teach.*
No, he's pointing out that final judgment is not merely part of what happens in general after death. It's preceded by resurrection, which means it's not part of death but rather is something done to people who will have come to life.
*not just pointing to texts where Christ died, then presupposes by the word ‘death’ in texts he quote, there is nothing beyond death: death is death.*
Chris never made any argument of the sort; you are creating a strawman. However, since I do believe in an intermediate state, I'd be glad to discuss this with you. In particular, my claim is that there's an intermediate state only and specifically because God "keeps the ungodly under punishment *for the day of judgment*" (2 Pet 2:9). The way in which God makes this happen is not to have man's soul live forever; rather, it's that man can only kill the body, but leaves the soul alive. So in this context your quotation of Matt 10:28 is especially bad for your argument; that verse goes on to show that although man leaves the soul alive, God is so powerful that He can kill the soul, meaning (according to Jesus) that He should be feared.
You claim: *Job **14:21** and 22 ANSWERS this objection ... The Greek word ψυχὴ “soul” I present even though some of the translators didn’t translate it, literally.*
Yes, but it's speaking of a time when this man has a body. It's therefore not possible it's about the intermediate state. And read the rest of the chapter - Job also in that same chapter claims he could escape his suffering by dying, and perhaps later being awakened after God had atoned for his sins.
But this is not a belief anyone here hold; the JWs reject the resurrection of the wicked, which Chris affirms. And of course you and I affirm the intermediate state as presented in Luke 16.
*If there is no suffering, after death, why did the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 was in torments and suffering?*
So it's reasonable of you to ask this of Chris, but I would simply agree with you that the rich man perceived himself to be in torments, by God's deliberate infliction of those on him.
*If a person dies of natural death or killed by someone that person will NOT CEASE to EXIST; hence, the point here is not to fear what man can do (to me)( Psalms 118:6) but fear God alone (Matthew 10:28):*
Right. So WHY fear God alone? Because He alone can kill the soul (and specifically in Gehenna, the place-name Jesus uses for final punishment).
*In the book of Luke 23:42-43, the one malefactor repented and Jesus told him “Today you shall be with in paradise”; ... this criminal was alive for the soul and spirit lives forever.*
None of this is what Jesus said here. And on the contrary we see in Acts 2 that Jesus would have been abandoned to Hades and bound by the pangs of death had not God raised Him up ("of which we are all witnesses", adds Peter). Clearly you and I would agree that Jesus and the thief consciously met, but surely that's not because Eccl 9 is just wrong; clearly it's because man cannot kill the soul. But how could Christ be bound by pangs of death, and then loosed from them, if He didn't actually die? Nor can only His body be said to be bound; Peter discusses His soul as well.
None of this addresses Chris' point in this video in any way. Chris is correct: ECT needs to deny that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection are "of first importance" in discussing the gospel (beginning of 1 Cor 15), and that instead something mentioned almost nowhere is instead primary. I don't even know what this "something" might be; you give no hint of what you believe Christ did in our place, but only talk about Paradise (do you think Christ atoned for our sins there?).
4:34 “They lose life in that way.” Yeah but so what. So does everyone. That wasn’t the point of the question.
No, not everyone after the resurrection. The traditionalist position says that the wicked will not die after they are raised but instead will be given immortal bodies and live forever.
He didn’t “exhaust” the eternal torment. There’s no scripture that says that he did so.
Chris's point is that there is no such thing as "the eternal torment." The wrath of God means that the sinner will perish, and having perished, never again live.
@@WilliamTanksleyJr
Luke 10:26 KJV
[26] He said unto him…how readest thou?
Matthew 12:3…Have ye not read?…
Matthew 12:5…have ye not read?…
Matthew 19:4…Have ye not read?…
Matthew 22:31…have ye not read?…
Mark 12:10…have ye not read?…
Mark 12:26…have ye not read?…
Luke 6:3…Have ye not read?…
Revelation 14:10-11 KJV
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: [11] And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Matthew 22:29 KJV
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
"The wages of sin is death," Ro.6:23, *not* eternal life. I've had plenty enough "Christians" argue against this in my life and times. Little do they know, and less do they care, that it was Satan, in the Garden, who duped our first parents by saying, "You will *not* surely die." That's where everlasting life past death comes from. In every case, first comes the truth spoken by God saying. "You will *surely* die." This is how a true believer spots false gospels, as well. First comes the truth, then comes the lie usurping the truth, as in Gal.1:8,9. We must account for the fact that Satan copies Christ... Jesus gives eternal life and Satan, to be like Christ, must also grant eternal life, though with Satan, it's a big fat lie. See Isa.26:14; Ecc.12:7; Gen.3:19; 9:3,4, et al.
Think about this, the Scriptures are ultra-clear that only BELIEVERS are given immortality at the resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15)
If UNBELIEVERS live forever in eternal torment, that means that they were at some point given immortality… which scripture doesn’t seem to teach.
I'm not normally very dogmatic about certain biblical doctrines/lines of thinking, but ETC is one I will always oppose. It it turns out to be real I would of course have to just accept it but I have faith that our righteous God who is rich in mercy will grant a merciful death at least. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but wants all to come to repentance and live.
BTW I do not agree with universalism it is the opposite side of an extreme.
I think we need to use Biblical language carefully. I.e. people in hell do not 'live,' yet in the video, they use the word 'live' in the context of those in hell. Spiritual death is the ultimate separation from God; physical death is the payment God gives for sinning. To answer the question, since Jesus paid for sin, what is left to pay? i.e. Why would people in hell need to suffer if Jesus paid for their sins? I think the Bible makes it clear that one must believe to be saved and that genuine faith is credited as righteousness. So, for someone to have eternal life, other things must occur - i.e. not Jesus' atonement only, but that individuals enter into that grace covenant through faith. Some people think that Jesus died only for some; his atonement was an actual atonement instead of potential. I believe that Jesus died for the whole world, but God divinely knows, by name, those that would believe from before the foundation of the world.
Ok, so we can't reason from the atonement of Christ to assess the duration of 'spiritual death' that those in hell will undergo. I hope that what I've mentioned above is clear enough to see that. The Bible is decisive in that once the declaration is made (righteous or wicked), there is no going back. It is either everlasting life (in the presence of God) or eternal death (separation from God). Still, I'm unsure if people are 'punished' in hell for eternity. I imagine people continue to sin in hell and continually receive what they want and deserve. I cannot think of a passage that outright says they will be annihilated (cease to exist), nor one that says they'll be punished literally forever. Read Matthew 25:46 and decide for yourself if eternal punishment also means eternal torment. Personally, I think it does. The word used in this verse can mean punishment and/or torment, and it's at times translated as torment in 1 John 4:18. This is the reason I say I'm unsure because I don't think the Bible clearly defines 'eternal torment.' I simply lean towards eternal punishment and eternal torment to be categorically equal. The opposite of 'torment' is technical 'joy,' isn't it? That's something else to consider.
*I think we need to use Biblical language carefully.*
Sure, but "carefully" should not mean "redefining all the terms until they mean the opposite."
*I.e. people in hell do not 'live,' yet in the video, they use the word 'live' in the context of those in hell.*
If you watch the debate, both parties believe in the resurrection, when both saved and unsaved stand up from the tombs and literally live again; as Rev 20:5 says, they "come to life again." In the same sense they "come to life", Len believes they'll remain alive (in THAT kind of "life") forever, and Chris believes they'll be destroyed body and soul (the newly living body AND the soul that men can't kill, Matt 10:28a).
I know there's a sense in which the wicked don't ever live (the life of closeness with God), but you can't die when you never lived.
*Spiritual death is the ultimate separation from God; physical death is the payment God gives for sinning.*
This is false, completely. Spiritual death is mentioned in Eph 2:1 and parts of John 5. It's not the final punishment, but rather the condition of those who prefer sin to God, and therefore cannot hear God. The ULTIMATE separation from God is mentioned indirectly in Acts 17 when Paul tells the philosophers they can be sure God is still waiting for them to repent, "because we are not far from Him, for in Him we live, and move, and have our being." Notice the implication: if we WERE far from Him, we would neither live, nor move, nor have being.
Why? Because "in Him all things all things consist."
*To answer the question, since Jesus paid for sin, what is left to pay? i.e. Why would people in hell need to suffer if Jesus paid for their sins?*
This isn't even remotely anyone's claim. The claim Chris is making is that the wages of sin is death, and Jesus paid it in full -- so that those who are worthy to attain to the age to come will no longer be able to die.
*Ok, so we can't reason from the atonement of Christ to assess the duration of 'spiritual death' that those in hell will undergo. I hope that what I've mentioned above is clear enough to see that.*
Chris was arguing that those in hell will have to pay the FULL penalty of death, not merely "spiritual death" that leaves them still breathing and moving and having their being. And this will last forever, because they will lose their life and never again live.
*I imagine people continue to sin in hell and continually receive what they want and deserve.*
Not if they're killed.
*I cannot think of a passage that outright says they will be annihilated (cease to exist), nor one that says they'll be punished literally forever.*
You don't mean "punished forever", you mean "tormented forever." That their punishment doesn't end is clear from Heb 6:2, but that their punishment is loss of life is clear from John 3:16, Matt 10:28, and so on.
*Read Matthew 25:46 and decide for yourself if eternal punishment also means eternal torment. Personally, I think it does. The word used in this verse can mean punishment and/or torment, and it's at times translated as torment in 1 John 4:18.*
No surprise; the English word "punishment" used to imply a judicial process, while the Greek doesn't (so at the time of the KJV, 1 John would misleadingly make it look like God was punishing people FOR having fear). In modern English that's not the case, so modern translations (and lexicons) just say kolasis means "punishment".
*This is the reason I say I'm unsure because I don't think the Bible clearly defines 'eternal torment.' I simply lean towards eternal punishment and eternal torment to be categorically equal.*
Gotcha, but the question would be what Matthew says the punishment for sin is (especially the final punishment). I'd say read the whole thing - but just consider, ask yourself, could it be that the intro from John, "he will utterly clear His threshing floor ... he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" -- might actually be the eternal punishment, not to be burned on and on, but to be burnt up?
*The opposite of 'torment' is technical 'joy,' isn't it? That's something else to consider.*
Fine, but in context the opposition is between "eternal punishment" and "eternal life", not "joy". The opposite of life is death, the opposite of eternal life is to perish, as in John 6, "the food that perishes" vs. "the food that endures," and "live forever" vs. "die."
Heb_10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
False doctrine. Imagine the impending effect of this doctrine. If there is no eternal torment in hell (which the bible clearly objects | Matthew 25: 46) people will have no fear of God. They would choose sin and believes that if he dies he will just cease to exist. This will take away accountability for sin. This doctrine is from the pit of hell and will deceive many people.
The Bible is very clear concerning eternal torment, and that salvation can be lost.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:9-13 ESV
So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:32-33 ESV
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26 ESV
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37 ESV
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3 ESV
26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 ESV
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV
13 And the ones (seed) on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing (temptation) fall away. Luke 8:13 ESV
The Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded, 2 and he went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin: The Lord is with you while you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you. 2 Chronicles 15:1-2 ESV
One of the important phenomena that happen in salvation is regeneration. Regeneration is the event where one receives the Holy Spirit and becomes born again. Every saved person has the Holy Spirit. In fact, you cannot regard yourself as a saved person nor call yourself a child of God if you do not have the Holy Spirit for God acknowledges only those who possess His Spirit as His children. Even Jesus was identified as the Son of God by the Holy Spirit (John 1:29-34).
If the Holy Spirit is all necessary for saved people, what happens to a saved person if he loses the Holy Spirit? Is he still saved? Certainly not. And is it possible to lose the Holy Spirit? Yes, it is possible to lose the Holy Spirit after having received Him. Biblical proof:
Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him. 1 Samuel 16:14
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit. Psalm 51:10-13.
Are you aware that not a single Bible passage you quoted mentions eternal torment?
Death is separation. Them being in hell is death itself because they are separated from God which is the separate death.
I think though when you start saying death isn't really death it's separation, you are at a point where your stretching things to make it fit with a narrative of hell that Greek mythology and Catholic teachings has always made us believe.
I've always been curious on that, because I hear it a lot, but don't hear much biblical backing that death isn't really death.
Death is anything that isn’t life. God is life, and separating from God would mean death. Living in hell forever would imply that we “live” forever. Only the righteous will live forever.
@@andrewmartsch I can agree with that
5:59 not similar to Adam, really. He had to say the word “part” of that death.
No hay forma lógica de escapar a ese asunto si se cree en un infierno de tortura eterna.
What about these verses? 👇👇👇
Luke 16:23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
Matthew 13:49-50 " So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 25:41-46 "“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I found these videos helpful since they talk more about scriptures:
ruclips.net/video/a2DGKqZX7vs/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/Izgf3NMuW8w/видео.html
You forgot Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.
Now, does that mean that Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning? Or does it mean the result of their sin,(which is their punishment), has been everlasting?
@@DavidD-bg7uo What about their souls being held consciously in Hades awaiting judgment? Some men and women have been suffering conscious torment for thousands of years awaiting judgment in Hades, which is a level of hell.
I do believe scripture teaches that they were destroyed and exist no more, but by default I believe that whenever you die an unbeliever, (some get harsher punishment than others), you go to one of the parts of Hell forever. I don't believe anybody ever gets out. Even if it were for just one day it would seem like an eternity because demons would have their way with you, you would be tormented and it would be the absolute worst experience you could ever imagine.
@@infj-tadvocatepersonality5730 If your asking me about separate soul and body? Then no, I don't believe that. I also don't think the early believers thought that either. The apostle Paul in 1Cor. chapter 15 mentions the dead several times as being asleep. Jesus Himself said the dead no nothing. If one goes to either heaven or hell at death, what is the purpose of the resurrection or the final judgement? One more question. If one goes to heaven or hell at death, why did Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead? Surely he went to heaven. Cruel thing for Jesus to let him experience heaven 4 days, just to bring him back to be threatened with death again by the Pharisees, don't you think? BTW, what scripture verse says there are souls in hell awaiting judgement?
This is a parable. Jesus was using metaphors ppl at that time would get it right away. Can you really cool down with @ single drop of water on ones tongue🤔Must be figure if speech
yup.
It's pretty easy to answer if you die with sin you go to hell when you're in hell you can't cross from one to the other we are eternal beings meaning we never die we can't enter Heaven because of our sins so that leaves us one other place hell...WE ARE ETERNAL entities wherever we go that will be our home
immortal soul is a pagan doctrine, not biblical.
*It's pretty easy to answer*
I'd challenge you to actually listen to Chris, not just knee-jerk respond to us. It's clear to me you didn't listen. Jesus had to die, not just suffer without dying. There's a TON of scripture for that. Yet you propose we literally never die. Then how did "Christ die for our sins"?
*if you die with sin you go to hell when you're in hell you can't cross from one to the other*
This is true, but not being able to cross from one side to the other isn't the eternal punishment. All it means is there's no repentance after death. There's also going to be a resurrection, and THEN the eternal punishment will be pronounced by the judge. So what is the wages of sin, the punishment that was withheld while God was keeping the wicked under punishment for the Day of Judgment (2 Pet 2:9)?
*we are eternal beings meaning we never die*
Then, God in the flesh says not to fear those who cannot kill the soul, but to fear God who can! If you thought you couldn't be killed, how terrifying to find that God will kill you even in your imagined safety. And of course this is what God said in Gen 3:22, that we CANNOT live forever; and to solve that, Jesus says those who come to Him believing will "live forever" (John 6:58) and "never die" (John 11:26).
*we can't enter Heaven because of our sins so that leaves us one other place hell...*
1 Cor 15 says that the solution to us being unable to enter the kingdom of God is to transform our body by giving it glory, honor, power, immortality, and incorruption. But if God will give us uncorruption then, doesn't that mean we were corruptible before? If God will give us immortality, that means we could die. And so on. And yes, all of those are things the wicked get the opposite of. Instead of glory, eternal contempt. Instead of honor, they will wake to shame. Instead of power, they will be judged and bow the knee. Instead of incorruption, they will be destroyed in their corruption. Instead of immortality ... God will, having killed, throw them into Gehenna (Luke 12:5).
*WE ARE ETERNAL entities wherever we go that will be our home*
This is the gospel of real estate. But we don't need a realtor to save us from undesirable neighborhood. We need the Great Physician to heal us and save our lives.
@@WilliamTanksleyJr i agree with what you say why cause it’s written in the scriptures. And Yes we never die Jesus suffered and died on the cross for our sins im talking about our physical body dies everyone’s physical body dies that’s how Jesus died not his spirit we repeat except Jesus as our lord and saviour we are saved by faith through grace . Hell is Eternal punishment when father God judges the world the soul spirit and body remains in hell just now they are taken to the lake of fire.
@@jbath39 - yes, everything I said is written in scripture. And one of them is a direct contradiction to what you claim, when you say the wicked will live forever (body and soul!) in Gehenna, but Jesus said God is able to destroy body and soul in Gehenna, and Genesis said we cannot live forever.
*And Yes we never die*
Then why did Jesus promise only believers that they will never die? John 11:25-26
*Jesus suffered and died on the cross for our sins*
Yes, and rose for our justification. This means that "if we have been united with him in a death like his [in context, this is symbolic of baptism], we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."
Jesus's resurrection was intended to bring us life and immortality.
*im talking about our physical body dies everyone’s physical body dies*
But only some people's bodies will be raised with glory, honor, and immortality in eternal life, right? Rom 2:7.
*that’s how Jesus died not his spirit*
Do you imagine that the spirit is an escape vehicle for the person? The Bible says Jesus's spirit went to God, but it says His soul went to Hades, where He was bound by the pangs of death until God loosed them. Acts 2.
*Hell is Eternal punishment when father God judges the world the soul spirit and body remains in hell*
No, loss of life is the eternal punishment, according to Matthew, the only book that mentions eternal punishment. Hell is the place in which God is able to destroy body and soul, and into which God throws the wicked after He has killed. Matt 10:28, Luke 12:5, Matt 25:46.
*just now they are taken to the lake of fire.*
That's incorrect; the lake of fire is a symbol meaning "the second death", meaning that they will die a second time.
@@WilliamTanksleyJr give me a few days now you got me thinking.
One point of eternal torment in a literal HELL is, it is a great deterrent. But here are some scriptures speaking of Hell; Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word: aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. Revelation 14:9-11, “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur…And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night..." By the way the word torment is translated from the Greek word "basanismou" and if you look in a Greek concordance it means torture, pain, torment. It does NOT mean annihilate.
Good verses that you bring up but sadly none of them mentioned the word hell. Eternal punishment does not mean hell those are totally different words. And Revelation 14 is the punishment upon those who take the mark of the beast in the Millennium. And the terminology used there is drawing from Isaiah 34 which uses smoke of their torment and describing the literal destruction of Edom. That's the problematic thing of taking one ambiguous verse and another verse from the most symbolic book of the new testament to try to make a case for something and ignore the literal many clear verses. Sadly Christians are just doing what the Jehovah's Witnesses do in regards to the deity of Christ they pick a few verses that they believe show he is not God and ignore all the ones that prove he is
Len is a bit slow in understanding.
i would say let US go back to the drawing board and sort this out thank u very much it gives me a lot to think about.
Christ was in the grave, put to ‘death’ in our place, he saves us, destroying death, the fear of physical death (hebrews 2:9,14-15 “taste death for every man”); for Transgressing the Law is SIN which is death, Genesis 2:17 ‘shall surely die’(c.f. James 2:9-10, one point is a transgressor THE LAW, Numbers 15:31, 1 Samuel 15:24, 1 John 3:4 ‘sin is the transgression of the law’):
the physical death Romans 6:23; all shall die Romans 5:12 death passed to all men, the grave: Genesis 42:48 ch 44:29
Then while in the grave, the BODY/FLESH decays, Job 24:20 describes the worms sweetly eating: Isaiah 66:24 worm dies not.
However, John 11:26 & John 8:51 “he that believers on me ‘shall NEVER see DEATH’…similar to, John 3:36, if you believe not shall NOT SEE LIFE), that is for the soul and and spiritual death is for those who believes not would be cast into the second death (Revelation 2:11 ch 20:14).
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 3:36 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Abide or remains on them is continual
Since “death” is the subject which Christ Jesus the Lord paid our sins by his death, according to Chris, Jesus suffered and died, nothing beyond this.
The second death “spiritual death” is preserved for Satan and his angels/demons.
The second death REFUTES/DEBUNKS this spurious and erroneous doctrine that at death the wicked ceases to exist; for every human being is made of body; spirit, like the angels/demons; and has a soul.
Revelation 2:11 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Hurt is the word adikeó From adikos; to be unjust, i.e. (actively) do wrong (morally, socially or physically) -- hurt, injure, be an offender, be unjust, (do, suffer, take) wrong.
c. τινα, to hurt, damage, harm (in this sense by Greeks of every period): Luke 10:19; Revelation 6:6; Revelation 7:2; Revelation 9:4, 10; Revelation 11:5; passive οὐ μή ἀδικηθῇ ἐκ τοῦ θανάτου shall suffer no violence from death, Revelation 2:11.
Thus, the promise to not hurt them which overcome, who had kept their faith; however, there is the second death, the Lake of fire and brimstone for people that are cast into the lake of fire, as a result, does ‘hurt’ the wicked who are thrown into it.
If everything ends at death for the wicked, why do the wicked get resurrected bodies? What’s the purpose of God reuniting their bodies, according to the conditional immortality view “those who are condemned to hell will literally die there” then to destroy or annihilate the wicked at the second death in the lake of fire and brimstone?
I give further points and Scriptures below.
To those who say, how can a "loving God torment someone forever and ever? This is building a theology based on “emotion” rather than the Scriptures. Then they arbitrarily dictate what is just or unjust for God; essentially, the clay is replying to the potter "How can you do this or how dare you is really what is meant" like in (Romans 9:19-23) for people to burn in eternal hell fire forever and ever.
Romans 9:19-23 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
I say the Lord God of Israel, the High and Almighty, can do whatever, he so desires which is perfect and just. If its against or for his creation, whether man or every other living thing, for punishment or blessings.
Also, some say in 2 kings 23:10, Jeremiah 19:5-6, ch. 32:35, ch 7:31 say: “burning your sons and daughters something I had never commanded neither never came into my mind”, so how can God burn people for eternity? When the Israelites burn their children to Molech, this didn’t enter the mind/heart of God.
The Scriptures plainly, clearly, and emphatically teaches about HELL, a place of torment, of “weeping and gnashing/grinding of teeth”, “the fire never being quenched”
Answer:
This was an act that God had not came in his mind for his people “the children of Israel” to burn their seed to Molech or the idols of Canaan ( psalms 106:38) for the Lord God even cast out those Nations who practiced it.
However, the Lord God used the same epithet, or “name for the valley of the son of Hinnom”: TOPHET. Similar to dead bodies will be up the valley in Tophet, being called “the valley of slaughter”, the Lord makes a WIDE AND DEEP place and light it with his breathe: FIRE.
Tophet literally means a place of burning.
In Isaiah 30:33, this is literally the same picture, an Ordination or preparing, setting in time past this, depicting final Judgment from the New Testament Scriptures.
Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
The word Tophet means Tophteh: a place of burning, probably the same as Topheth
Long- ethmowl means time, before that time, heretofore, of late old, times past, yesterday
Prepared arak means array, to arrange or set in order ordain, prepare A primitive root; to set in a row, i.e. Arrange, put in order (in a very wide variety of applications) -- put (set) (the battle, self) in array, compare, direct, equal, esteem, estimate, expert (in war), furnish, handle, join (battle), ordain, (lay, put, reckon up, set) (in) order, prepare, tax, value.
There is a location called "the valley of Hinnom", tophet (Jeremiah 7:31-32, ch. 19:6,11-14, 32:35, 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6) outside of Jerusalem; The Lord God hated what the Children of Israel committed, following after a heathen practice, "to burn their sons and daughters in the FIRE..which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart", Jeremiah 7:31 and "to Molech" (1 kings 23:10)
This place “the valley of Hinnom” is named Tophet which will be a type of the LAKE OF FIRE for the wicked, hypocrites, etc wlll be cast into.
Isaiah 30:33 is the "LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE" and their "FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED" Isaiah 66:24
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, *neither shall their fire be quenched*; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The most compelling evidence is that the fire is everlasting “never shall be quenched”, or is in Mark 9:42-47 quoting Isaiah 66:24 (above), verse 45 "into the fire that NEVER shall be QUENCHED” quoting Isaiah 66:24
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go *into hell*, *into the fire that never shall be quenched*: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, *into the fire that never shall be quenched*: 46 Where their worm dieth not, *and the fire is not quenched*. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be *cast into hell fire*: 48 Where their worm dieth not, *and the fire is not quenched*
You should probably explain your point a little better. Most of your post feels like random passages. Maybe just say what you think you're proving.
*Since “death” is the subject which Christ Jesus the Lord paid our sins by his death, according to Chris, Jesus suffered and died, nothing beyond this.*
I'd agree that's "according to Chris", but it's also according to Paul as "first importance" (1 Cor 15). Why do you mention this is "according to Chris?"
*The second death “spiritual death” is preserved for Satan and his angels/demons.*
No, the second death is body and soul, to resurrected people (Rev 20:5, Rev 21:8, Matt 10:28). It appears to be applied equally to the devil and to people in Matt 25:41, although Rev 20:10 at first makes it look like the devil won't die at all I agree with you that he also will die the second death.
*The second death REFUTES/DEBUNKS this spurious and erroneous doctrine that at death the wicked ceases to exist; for every human being is made of body; spirit, like the angels/demons; and has a soul.*
How does this make the second death refute anything? You don't provide any logic here. The second death happens to people who "come to life" (Rev 20:5), so they are just as alive as they were prior to physical death.
*If everything ends at death for the wicked, why do the wicked get resurrected bodies?*
If everything ends at death for the wicked, the only way they'd ever know they were judged is if they're resurrected.
*What’s the purpose of God reuniting their bodies, according to the conditional immortality view “those who are condemned to hell will literally die there” then to destroy or annihilate the wicked at the second death in the lake of fire and brimstone?*
But more importantly than that, even though we agree that there's torment in Hades for the wicked, God provided a resurrection so that both the wicked and all of those who were harmed by them could see the secrets revealed and the conscience of the wicked testify against them (Rom 2:15). Otherwise, even if the wicked know they were caught, nobody else would (see Job 21, Psalm 73).
Now, can you explain why in your view the wicked are resurrected, if they're already in torment and are just going to be put into torment, and torment will be their only punishment? On our view, the resurrection is the only time the wicked can know judgment. On your view, the wicked knew judgment before and after, and nothing can change.
Carismactivism, ask me the questions, and I will give you the Biblical answers.
Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 10:2 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The soul is destroyed when it the cast into hell.
The word destroy means 622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") - properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Matthew 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
Notice, they wanted to destroy Jesus: Destroy is the same word in Matthew 10:28. Yet, Jesus was not annihilated or ceased to exist. A brother can be destroyed for whom Christ died being grieved with your meat.
Or in Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Looking at the word destroy alone without looking at other texts, one could "reason" that a person body and soul would be annihilated or ceased to exist; he can destroy apollymi or "lose" which is the same word, here as the word destroy: your physical body and life; a person can lose his body, be buried, yet, his soul, his spirit is ”in your hands, I commit my spirit in your hands, you have redeemed me, O Lord, God of truth." (Jesus said Luke 23:46 quoting from the Psalms 31:5) ALIVE; therefore, fear not him who kills the physical body; but in the greater sense, fear God alone, who can destroy or one can 'lose' BOTH the body and soul in HELL.
Thus, Hell is the important point in Matthew 10:28; Gehenna/hell is the place, but even Death and Hell is cast into the LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE which is the SECOND DEATH.
Notice, the person(s) who are cast into outer darkness, the phrase "where there is weeping and gnashing/grinding of teeth" (Matthew 8:12, ch. 22:13, ch. 24:51, ch. 25:30; Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out) indicates that individual or person(s) are conscious, self-aware, and in torments.
*Take note, concerning if a person is CONSCIOUS in HELL or not; the Rich Man was CONSCIOUS and AWARE of WHERE he was at, in Luke 16:19-3*
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Both Lazarus and the rich man DIED; BOTH were CONSCIOUS and AWARE of where they were; one was in Abraham’s bosom, Lazarus; and the other, the rich man, in hell: he had FIVE BROTHERS and did not desire for them to BE IN HELL, where he was, is the point.
The fifth seal where THE SLAIN SOULS cried out to the Lord, were CONSCIOUS AND AWARE what had occurred to them “… judge and AVENGE OUR BLOOD ON THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH”, and “SOULS that were beheaded”, deliver his SOUL from THE HAND/POWR of THE GRAVE”:
Revelation 6:9-11:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God
1 Samuel 28:7-19 11 Then said the woman, WHOM SHALL I BRING UP UNTO THEE? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
‘Death itself’ has a consummation; there is a FINAL BLOW for death in 1 Corinthians 15:26: a fiery furnace, the lake of fire and brimstone; this is the second death. 1 Corinthians ch 15 verses 51-52; the resurrection of the saints immortality is the victory over death
Matthew 18:21-35:
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
verse 34, the word for tortured means 930 basanistḗs: a torturer; (from 928 /basanízō) - a guard in a prison "whose function was to torture prisoners as a phase of judicial examination - prison guard, torturer"; so likewise, that is how or in the same manner, the Greek word here, houtos 3779 is referring to what precede or follows, will the Father, speaking to Christians if they don't forgive a brother or any person who sins against you in context (Matthew 18:21,22), will be delivered to tormentors.
Wow nobody is going to read that wall of text.
But you start off really strong with the line where Jesus teaches that God punishes thought crime.
So he's basically Super-Stalin
Hell was created for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41 c.f. Isaiah 14:9-15 Isaiah 30:33, Revelation 20:10); Hell is A PLACE OF TORMENT (Luke 16:28). The devil is a spiritual or immaterial being (hebrews 1:7,14 cited from Psalms 104:4).
Are we created only with a ‘physical’ body or do we have a ‘soul’ and spirit which are immaterial or spiritual? Yes, Man, Adam was created with a soul nephesh and became a living soul: being made in the very “image of God” indicating, we are “spirit” or have a spiritual aspect: for God is a Spirit (John 4:24).
A spiritual body (1 corinthians 15:41-44) are for those who are resurrected, even THE WICKED will be REUNITED TO THEIR BODIES IN RESURRECTION for eternal hell, lake of fire: Revelation 20:13-15 (quoted above) John 5:28-29 and Revelation 20:5-6; for those who are saved will not have pain or ‘hurt’ per the promise of Christ to the church of Smyrna revelation 2:11. Those cast into the steam of fire, a foreshadow of the Lake of fire and brimstone in the N.T., which the Lord will Blaze (Isaiah 30:33) will be tormented.
Revelation 14:11 “they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT”
The word Rest is anapausis: cessation, rest
Cognate: 372 anápausis - inner rest (tranquility). See 373 (anapauō). From anapano; intermission; by implication, recreation -- rest.
After the cursed are cast into the second death, as a result this punishment forever, there is ‘NO’ CESSATION, REST or INNER TRANQUILITY
John 5: 28,29 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have DONE EVIL, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION.
The saints are part of the FIRST RESURRECTION (Revelation 20:5-6)
Revelation 20:5-6 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This answers the immortality statement that is saints, those saved in Christ, put on immortality; but, the wicked will have resurrected bodies, immortality, given to the flame; the beast and false prophet were experiencing this SECOND DEATH, lake of fire and brimstone
(Daniel 7:11 …”I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame “: for appromixately 1000 years, EVEN BEFORE SATAN himself, according to Revelation 20:1-3,10.
Verse 10“Shall be tormented for ever and ever” there is the immortality for the wicked and their resurrected bodies
verse 1-3 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
1 Peter 3:19 ’PREACH TO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON
2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Revelation 14:9-11 9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Matthew 13:39-42 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The tares and wheat is Matthew 13:39-42 bind and thrown/cast into the furnace of fire is FULFILLED in Revelation 14:9-11: destroyed from the presence of the lamb and his holy angels like in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
Being slain and or thrown ALIVE into the Pit was new (Numbers 16:30)
First is the Beast and the false prophet are cast ALIVE in the furnace of fire Daniel 7:11, Revelation 19:19-21, ch. 20:10
After them it’s their followers who received the mark in their right hands or on their foreheads, number of his name, and those who worship his image, ALL CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE Revelation 14:11 ”the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night” a description given by Jesus in Mark 9:42-48 quoting Isaiah 66:24 (ABOVE).
For these Wicked CURSED group/class of people, there is no resurrection for them: no need; Christ has RETURNED and destroyed the Beast, false prophet, and the wicked with HIS TWO-EDGED SWORD and BY FIRE (Jeremiah 25:30-33, Isaiah 66:15,16, Revelation ch 1:18, ch. 2:12, ch. 19:15); they go straight to the FLAMES or the SECOND DEATH.
The second death “spiritual death” is preserved for Satan and his angels/demons but the wicked THE CURSED are thrown/cast in a fiery furnace everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) as described in Revelation 2:11 “shall NOT BE HURT of the SECOND DEATH” Revelation 14:9-11 ch. 20:4-7, 13-15, putting the ‘death and hell’ it in a Lake of fire and brimstone, where there is weeping and grinding/gnashing of teeth; there is pain felt in the second death.
For Christ has the KEYS of Death and Hell Revelation 1:18.
Hell is a location. In Hell, there is a specific name given in Scripture is called: tartaroó /Tartarus. This place is the netherworld for the Angels that Sinned and being in everlasting chains of darkness or holding place reserved for the Great Day of Judgment (Jude verse 6 and 2 Peter 2:4); notice, that Satan that old serpent was chained in the bottomless pit, abyss for a season: Revelation 20:1-3.
1 Peter 3:18-20 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 BY WHICH ALSO HE WENT AND PREACHED UNTO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Soo. I dont get it. Is hell eternal for me if i dont wanna follow God? Because i will NEVER worship a God that would torture billions of souls in the most unimaginably evil, sadistic and brutal and painful ways possible FOR ALLLLLL ETERNITY. NO REST. NO SLEEP. NO FOOD. NO WATER. NO FRIENDS. NO FAMILY. NO NOTHING. JUST BURNING AND BURNING AND BURNING DAY AND NIGHT. and God watches every. Single. Second. 100 billion years go by. Im still burning every second. And im hearing my family burning too and i cant help them or find them because there's no light in hell. Just my own burning lungs and... Do you see it? Has religion seriously brainwashed you so hard, that you don't see how INSANE it is for God to torture trillions of souls, who didn't ask to be born, who had 99% chance of going to hell, most who never had a chance at a life let alone becoming Christians, God would torture us for all infinity for finite crimes because his MAJESTY was offended? Gimmi a break. Basically i can do whatever i want because im God. Get outta here. HIS A BULLY if he does that. He bullies his own creation and plays around with different outcomes regardless of what happens down here.
We can't escape him. We can't hide from him.
I can't even kill myself because i might go to hell too early, and now this sadistic control freak of a god wants me to worship him or he'll torture me for all eternity? Then come and torture me! I would rather burn in HELL than to follow such a evil god.
But i hope its different.
Send me to hell, for a thousand years. For a billion years.
But if your truly just and righteous, you will do things accordingly and rightfully. You will punish/reward a man according to his deeds. Not according to your ego and pride being hurt "oh they didn't follow me" im gonna torture them FOR ALLL ETERNITY MUAHAHAHAHAH.
malachi 4:3 you will trample the wicked for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this say the lord of hosts
Actually the Bible doesn't see how it was created for the Devil in his Angels it says the eternal fire was. And the eternal fire is only defined in Jude 7 which references the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as the example of those who will suffer the fate of eternal fire. This requires precision when reading the text because we have a tendency to read in what we already think we know. Please go back and read the text because I could be misleading
The lake of fire is the eternal torment.
There is no real lake of fire. Just like there is no real seven headed beast or woman standing on a moon. It's symbolic imagery in John's vision, which represents death.
@@ABC123jd I can do all things through scripture taken out of context, says ABC123jd.
@@jimdrummer816 I literally explained to you the context of Revelation. You want to take it out of context and say the lake of fire is a literal place.
@@ABC123jd The lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. That doesn't just mean death. So stop with the cherry picking and twisting of scripture. Have a good day!
@@jimdrummer816 Yes, it does symbolize death.
Rev 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Is death going to be ultimately destroyed or will death be tormented for eternity? What would that even mean?
Jesus spent 3 days in the heart of the earth where he preached to the spirits in prison. The lake of fire is the second death. Since it is a death you cant live for ever in the lake of fire. Even death and hell shall be cast into the lake of fire.
This host was talking too fast and deliberately using confusing phrases and suggestions? I would have walked out! Great respect to the guest who kept his cool and said the truth; 'I DO NOT understand what it is you are trying to say'? The LOST systematically become Immortal in hell because you cannot CEASE a spirit! Our Spirit form as an entity has always been here. You cannot kill it. Though hell is very real indeed, so whilst your spirit cannot be extinguished some might then face eternity within a place of torment! Not a nice thought, so worth sorting your life out right now?
God said sinners die, not live in misery forever.
eion
So basically you're calling Jesus Christ a liar
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25 46
Eternal torture? My brother that is a terrible translation, it is punishment, eternal punishment. Being killed and having that death last for eternity and missing out on life with christ is an eternal punishment
@@Sir.reginald.no1 Hell is eternal torment. Make sure that you're on the narrow way.
@@Europeangardens could you provide some evidence to back up your claim?
@@Sir.reginald.no1 Yes, ask Jesus to reveal it to you by His word and or by tasting it in the here and now. He created hell and warned about it. Meditate on hell scriptures without being bias, day and night. Ask, seek and knock and you'll find the truth about hell being eternal torment.
@@Europeangardens sir, I asked you to provide me evidence to base your claim off.