my interpretation of thors character is that he clearly wanted to live up to odins expectations, and was once his favorite son. Thor relished i’m being odins strongest soldier/a destroyer, however i think it’s because he just wanted to be destined for something great. once he realized he was nothing better than a weapon, a gun to point and shoot, he fell into his hole of alcoholism and abuse. the thor who could’ve been a hero to all was never taught he could be that way, and by the time he could’ve tried to be better, it was too late
Yeah his story in this game is like really depressing when I think about I mean before release I thought Thor was gonna be this ruthless always uncaring man but he really wasn’t in this game gotta admit this interpretation of Thor is definitely something at least for me because all I’ve ever known was marvel Thor
Yea but you can't ignore the fact that he was raised by the biggest asshole of the nine realms which severly influenced they way he turned out to be. All these stories of him getting drunk and getting into fights seem to me like some kind of outlet for thor when he couldn't life up to odins expectations.
Thor needed more time on screen. More direct conversation between him and Kratos. More expression of how he actually feels about the things he's done, more about him basically having PTSD from being a one-man-army killing hundreds. There was a lot of wasted potential with Thor, imo
@@buckyhurdle4776 just wanted to say I completely agree like my only complaint was Thor like in game he was so cool and once he was on screen he stole the show at least for me I just wish there were 3 Thor fights in the game I mean the missions where Thor was with Atreus were cool they did give and idea about Thor character and how different he is compared to Kratos but even then if kratos and Thor fought again in the middle of the story the ragnarok fight would’ve felt so much better but that’s just my opinion of course
@@NewCovenantOfChrist yea, but u can say the same for kratos, he was raised horribly as a spartan but never used that as an excuse for his actions. thor did too when he screams “do you know what i’ve done” to kratos. they’ve both undeniably done shitty things for shitty reasons, all you can do is be better moving forward
If I’m going to be honest I like how they handled thor in here, I wish he got a bit more screen time but instead of making him a brutal character for no reason they make him someone who was broken due to how he was raised and treated by Odin for years He’s almost the opposite of Kratos, while Kratos tried to move on from his past after having Atreus, Thor sorta delved into the idea of only being a weapon even after having Thrud
I was genuinely surprised by Thor. In GoW 2018, we hear stories of Thor as some sort of murdering pyschopath who delights in inflicting suffering and pain on those around him. But in Ragnarok, we see a man who is as much a victim of suffering as he is its source.
It’s even more interesting that he’s both the same and opposite of kratos, both being brutalized by their fathers and having ongoing tragedy in their lives, both lost children, both were seen by their people as destroyers, both saw their new child as a second chance at who they are, In a funny way this is sort of what the Last of Us 2 tried to do with Abby making her a reflection of Joel but this was done with more care
@@Killzoneguy117 thor used to be a murdering psychopath, look how he treated his sons. Midir says it in this video, it wasn't until the birth of Thrüd that he went sober and tried to be an actual father.
I'm glad that Mimir is still happy for Thor and Sif giving up their drinking habits for Thrúd. He knows they're trying to be better, and that Odin is a big reason why Thor was so abusive. Odin told Atreus that he can't be nice to Thor because Thor doesn't listen when being asked nicely. Odin abused his son so much, the only times he only responds to orders and insults.
"Odin told Atreus that he can't be nice to Thor because". Odin in this game is portrayed as a run of the mill abusive narcissist. Shifting blame like that is a key mechanic they use in psychologically torturing and manipulating people. Fuck, even when Odin killed Thor, he was saying it was Thors fault. "Look what you made me do" is one of the most typical lines you'll hear any narcissist utter. Shifting the blame on their victims.
i mean the same could still be said about thor despite what he did it was still apparent that he loved his children and given his conversation with sif there was a time when he was a good father.
@@pforgottonsoul didn't he beat Modi within an inch of his life and then sent him to his death,then when he comes to collect his "blood payments" from kratos he stopped when kratos knocked out HIS tooth,so basically his sons where worth one tooth to him
@@davidhamilton6883 Odin ordered not to kill him. If it wasn't for him he would definitely fight to the death back there. Shit, Kratos would've been dead since Thor likely wouldn't revive him after that QTE.
I love how this game has so many parallels and Thor being a sort of 'failed' Atreus is a very simple but effective one to show the importance of a father not only in the theme of the game but also in the development of a child
That’s a good theory and it makes sense, we already saw that Odin cares very little for Thors sons, going so far as to calling them useless in front of him. So I’m sure he’d have no problem disciplining Modi severely.
I doubt Odin would have killed Modi for failing. Thor lost the mask, Odin's most cherished object, and didn't get killed for it. He got killed for refusing to follow orders.
@@LordKingKamiGuru yeah but that’s THOR, he has some cred, if his sons were already perceived as useless a “you failed me for the last time” wouldn’t be past Odin
I think Thor was harsher on Modi because he looked like him, so a lot of Thor's self-hatred was inflicted unto him. Thor favored Magni because of his blonde hair, which makes him look closer to Sif, which is a positive in Thor's mind.
Listening to the way Thor talks about himself it's really clear that Odin was the one who got it into his head that he's good for nothing but being a destroyer. Especially Thor's insistence that thinking is bad makes be theorize that maybe early in his days of killing giants Thor realizing that many giants barley put up a fight and maybe even lingering love for his mother made him approach Odin with questions on why he's doing this. Odin probably responded by emotionally and physically abusing him for questioning him, and telling him that thinking will only lead him to pain. And Thor excepted it out of fear and want of approval from his father.
People truly believe that toxic masculinity means “Masculinity=bad” In reality it’s a look on how some people truly believe that men are supposed to act in one way and not the other. Like some people believe that men need to suck it up and get over things and never show emotion. That’s toxic. Mimir didn’t say raising your kid to be a man is toxic itself but how he did it was. Kratos himself is an example of raising a boy to be a man done in a healthy way.
But teaching men to control emotions it's a good thing and that's what Kratos taught to Atreus; men who act based on emotions have impulsive tendencies towards violence due to impulsiveness and lack of self-control.
@@TheBatman39 yes but that can overstep to a point of inhumanity, I.e. when Kratos realized the fact that Atreus didn’t close his heart to the suffering of others all the time was not a bad thing and should not be taken out of him. Compared to Odin who wants Thor to be nothing but an unemotional killer to the point that Thor was closing himself off to his family even though he clearly has the ability to care for them. There’s a difference between teaching emotional control and teaching someone to lack emotions. Teaching a man to lack emotions is inhumane and antithetical to what it means to be human, and society treats this as something cool and not horrific.
I think one of the best examples was why Kratos never trained Atreus like a Spartan. Not because he didn’t think he wouldn’t be “Man enough” but because for all the good it did breeding warriors it made them terrible people and he wanted Atreus to have a real childhood. One I bet he wished he could’ve had with Deimos.
I was listening and then "wait, did they slip in a "toxic masculinity" speech into GoW? Like the GoW where Kratos, the Spartan goes around and fucking kills everything, including concepts? What the heck.
@@dirtydeedsdirtcheep3007 But there is a banter scene where Kratos remembers how hard his childhood was and it's on the tone of "Spartans were great warriors otherwise they were dead." and if I remember correctly it was more on a matter of fact / prideful tone and not "children are sad :(" What I'm getting at is that maybe, just a bit, the tones are too close to modern way of thinking.
For me, the Aesir tell the tale of abuse. The abusive nature of Odin passed down to Thor, who passed it on again to Magni and Modi. But abuse is both ways. Thor's abuse of his sons also hurt him, if more emotionally than physically. And forcing yourself to do better? To be more than all you've ever known and force yourself to be a better person. That's real strength.
It’s generally great how they made Thor a strong reflection of Kratos being these battle crazed warriors but after constant tragedy and loss of children they come to question what they saw as their nature, this story even breaks a heavy critical trope as Thor is given a chance at redemption and in the end he takes its even if it was short lived, the constant critique of other media being the idea of how could you let a literal monster redeem themselves over so many terrible acts, yet our protagonist Kratos is no different his past self was to the eyes of the innocent an evil monster and for very good reason, God of War and Ragnorak are are based around this idea of redeeming the irredeemable, Kratos giving Thor a chance and Loki even giving Odin a chance pushes this idea to its peak, I don’t think anyone by face value would ever want anything beyond death for Thor but once comparing who he is to the hero we’ve been rooting for it’s clear that he too could improve, then there is Odin and Gna who refuse the notion of second chances and change so they are given a fate that befits their stagnant views, it all comes together beautifully with the story saying that their actions nor Kratos’ can ever truly be forgiven but they can still walk on and “be better”
Spoilers “Some only learn the truth the hardest way” After Odin killed her father and yeeted her across Asgard with mjolnir, I’d say that’s a bit of an understatement for Thrud
Aye bro you might wanna put a spoiler warning on this. It's totally ur choice but I'd recommend u do cuz theirs a very high chance ppl will read it and get shitty with you for spoiling it. Trust me, I've seen it everywhere on GOW Ragnarok vids.
Its kind of interesting that all of the issues the Norse gods have all stem from Odin Like a chronically abusive and manipilative grandfather who scarred multiple generations with his selfish need to be the dominant personality It really paints the whole pantheon with a lot of complexity. And the idea that both Thor and Sif are desperately trying to break the cycle of abuse after losing Magni and Modi is oddly wholesome. Its just a tragedy it took the loss of both their sons to realise how terrible they were to them.
its a little disappointing that we never got much info on how Baldur viewed the family/pantheon beyond that he recognized that it had serious issues. Baldur had value to Odin but we never hear if he suffered the same sort of expectations and manipulations or dismissiveness and abuse that Thor and Heimdall have.
Personally Thrúd was one of my favourite characters in the game So was Thor Both father and daughter teach how mistakes can be corrected through generations ✌️
Pay attention when Thor tries to stand up to Odin, Odin always says don't make Sif think for you. But when Odin wants something from him he always says don't think just do as I say.
Baldr escaped being raised by Odin but Thor couldn’t, Baldr went mad, unable to feel, his mother damned him to be dead walking, cause of her overprotective nature, brought on by Odin’s disregard for his children as anything but tools
"A poisonous notion of manhood to be passed down through generations..." PAY ATTENTION PEOPLE, PAY ATTENTION. Kratos redefines manhood and parenthood by expressing love and trust to his child!
So, Sif was a baddie back in the days. God, I would love to have a spin-off game about Thor's adventure and how he massacred all of the giants. We could also play this game on Faye's perspective. Either way both would be divinely great!
This actually changes how you look at thor when he beat the shit out of his son. He was probably pissed and drunk af and went off on a drunken rage, taking out his insecurities on his sons. He definitely loved his sons, but he obviously regretted it enough to the point he stopped drinking for a bit. That’s an interesting look they bring on thor with this convo
It’s..l nice? I guess? To know that Sif was just as guilty as Thor. Makes her acceptance of kratos make more sense. And also explains the difference between Thrud and her brothers.
I believe that a very important angle to think of is the fact that Thor was a half giant. I wonder if his hatred for the giants is in anyway rooted to how his “half-people” treated him, being absorbed in prophecy and knowing Thor turns out to be the biggest giant killer in history. Perhaps they treated him and his mother like garbage bringing the prophecies into fruition?
I wonder though... I remember Sindri said Magni and Modi had different moms just like in the myth. But I wonder how they came upon to being raised by Sif as well.
in the case of Magni it's probably just a stepmum thing. after all Thor is still his father and Sif is Thor's wife. his mother is probably dead since in norse myth his mother was a giant and Thor seems to have a very long history of killing giants. in Modi's case he's actually Sif's son (meaning that he and Thrud are full siblings), having him be raised by his own mother doesn't really need an explaination.
@@Eclipsed_Embers Oh I know the story of Magni and Modi's mom. They're both not Æsir. Magni was born from the Giantess, Járnsaxa while Modi's mom is unknown. Only Thrud is confirmed more god than her brothers. My question is how were they accepted in Asgard and treated as one of them to the point Sif even cared for them so much. The way Sif talked about them was like she knew them since they were kids. I wanna know how did they end up in her care.
I am kinda not sure how to think of thor. I am reminded of how magni and modi acted around loki and how he disrespectful and useless they turned out to be. Plus he beat up his son for no real reason and called him a "coward." Yet at the same time when he's around his daughter he appears like he's trying to change and even Sif reminded him of how they made wooden horses for them and the boys would sleep with them on their laps when they were young.
It's because Modi is a victim of another victim. Sif mentioning the wooden horses shows that Thor had moments of genuine, fatherly love. But that love was overshadowed by Odin's constant expectations and paranoia. Notice how Modi is much smaller than his brother Magni. Notice also how Modi is literally the spitting image of Thor. Odin constantly abused Thor growing up. Modi prolly reminded Thor of everything he felt about himself----stupid and never good enough, small and livining in the shadow of someone greater, foul and brutal not because he wants to be, but because if he doesn't, he'll be looked down upon even further. Thor abusing Modi was basically Thor expressing his own self-hatred.
You really do feel bad for everyone in these games no one has a good childhood or life everyone is just tragic and has lost so much but they’re trying to push forward and do what they can such an amazing game and series
However Spartan train has one good side, it wasn’t the parents who raised them. Despite the similar levels of abuse Spartans wouldn’t face that kind of familial abuse.
Yes, the game is clearly trying to draw parallels to Kratos and Thor as weapons. They both had harsh childhoods and turned into nothing but human weapons for their respective fathers. The difference is Odin turned Thor into his personal weapon through manipulation while Zeus set Kratos against him. Kratos got free of his bonds and had time and a family that helped him be reformed while Thor was still trapped by Odin and was emotionally beaten down all the while.
The only plot hole i see in mimirs talking about magni and modi's childhoods, thors and sif parenting in the 2018 and ragnarok is when sif talked to thor about the time when their boys were young and small when they spent nights in the campfire, them falling asleep in thor and sifs laps and chests, and carving them wooden horses. How didnt mimir know about this and only knows about them being bad parents?
@@TheBatman39 or their method of raising them changed, it's possible they became harsher on them as they got older and those times they were reminiscing about were when the boys were really young
abusive parents aren't all cartoonishly evil people who hate their kids, or at least they don't start that way. Thor and Sif probably did dote on their sons as babies and small children, but as they got older they probably expected more and more of them, which inevitably led to disappointment in them, which then led to resentment, and so on. compound this with the fact that both Sif and Thor have violent and alcoholic tendencies, and eventually, you get to where we were at in the previous game. what Sif is talking about in that scene is likely indicative of the regret she feels, and the yearning to do better with Thrud, something she and Thor probably both agreed on considering it's implied Thor attempted quitting drinking for his daughter before the events of Ragnarok. I can imagine after their sons died, Sif and Thor had a discussion similar to Faye and Kratos, where Sif pushes the idea of them being better, and Thor was fearful that the cycle can't break. The only difference is Kratos was able to break away from the past and move on, whereas Thor couldn't until the very end.
I’ll say this, it’s not manly to be sole brute that’s always eager to fight, that’s always eager to loose his temper or fuck anything that walks. It’s not manly to be like a bull in a China shop
i guess im one of the few people that didn't like the humanization of the Aesir. I just wanted blood thirsty brutes for Kratos to smash. Similar to the original titles where he'd give no quarter to the Greek pantheon
Toxic masculinity has nothing to do with how Thor was raised. Odin was just plain abusive and manipulative, as shown by his interactions with everyone he has known. You can even see how he emotionally manipulates his son right in front of you based on his interactions. All of those actions, the belittling, the shaming, the "You were better as a drunk", are not tied in any bit to Odin's gender, so calling it "toxic masculinity" is just another shoehorn for that phrase where it never belonged.
They didn't even say toxic masculinity. And the drunk part doesn't seem like the stuff you would say to a child, so the toxic masculinity part was propably referring to how Odin raised Thor when he was young
I agree that usage of the term is generally pernicious, but here it seems benign. It refers to the physical abuse and the corresponding command to man up to it.
@@ORION00119that wasn’t really about toxic masculinity I don’t think, that was describing what it means to be a “disciplined” man, i.e. you just kill as your father commands you
A stupid story, why all this bad embodiment of Thor and his family, even though in legends Thor and his family were not that bad This is all to show Kratos that he is a good person, and they could have let Thor live and Odin kills him himself in revenge for him because he is stronger than him in real mythology, but this game distorted everything. I wished to see the stupid director let Thor live with his family a happy life
Oh god, are we really going down the "muh toxic Masculinity" approach? No wonder people view the game as somewhat feminine compared to the previous versions.
This was literally a single line of dialouge that was optional and the two games with atraeus have been partially about what it is to be a good man and father. Don't get triggered so easily snowflake
@@dirtydeedsdirtcheep3007 Being a weak emotional mess makes a good man/father? Sounds like somebody was either raised by a single mother or a beta for a father.
MEn expressing their emotion is cringe why society don't care about men this is the feminist fault. Good job ! Your are the reason why male suicide is high.
@@EmptyMan000 (assuming this person is as right winged as I am) They should absolutely love this game and the concept of teaching your child to be better than you and passing on the better aspects of what you as a father have learned. Both kratos and Thor were beaten, formed into a mould through the worst ways possible, rigorous physical training for kratos, mental abuse for Thor. But they were both able to overcome this. Kratos was able to train Atreus through kindness (albeit in the form of tough love) and Thor is helping Thrud by letting her follow her dreams by not only being supporting her but by presumably being there with her, not at the drinking hall. You'd think that by keeping the themes and parallels of the Nuclear family would hit closer to home with fellow righties. Not to mention that the game is still full of violence, gore, weapons and armor.
@@FierceDeity35 sadly brother people hear one little buzz word and all that art and symbolism goes out the window. Folks need to learn not to be so reactive. Not to mention Mimir calls it a twisted form of masculinity. As in not real masculinity
They just had to include a mention of toxic masculinity, didn't they? Just like they had to make Sigrun a feminist all of a sudden by making her point out how Mimir helped all those MEN abuse women.
@@pcmld2267 What culture? the one were awful male rulers completely and consistently fail their subjects? yeah no idea why a member of an all female fighting force would have an opinion about that
Actually, in the culture of these Norsemen, or vikings whatever you know them as, women were seen as equal to men. They could buy land, divorce, and fight for their home. All things that men could do in that era. So it makes sense that these things are applicable to their culture.
@@artorios637 Can confirm and back up with archeological finds in viking/Norse battlefields where bones of women with remnants of armor and weapons on them were found
Yep should've known they would throw something in about toxic masculinity. Just as stupid as them toning down kratos's appearance because they gave in to the game journos crying about kratos being as jacked as he was in games prior is toxic.
I mean a story like this is a good place to do it. It's a tale of a father and son learning to grow together, there's obviously going to be some issues with what "being a real man" means when Kratos has had such a hard life and has had to move on from a lot of toxic traits
@@teenybopper2352 The problem there is that while the reasoning behind that, do you think for even a moment there aren't those that aren't going to crank that up to 11, especially in this day and age. And the whole concept is stupid as a whole, a man is a man, they're always real. The idea behind a "real one" is pretty damn dumb. There's good guys and then there's bad ones, whoopty.
@@wholesome_masochist4113 well that's just being obtuse around the language and having a closed mind. There's been nothing in these games that's been ingenuine or even hidden about this topic, but now that it's said in words out loud and its "gone too far"?
@@teenybopper2352 You're talking about being obtuse and closed minded about language while intentionally being that yourself? Dude, the entire point I made was literally that people were going to go nuts over it and the resulting hornet's nest being kicked would start a shit show with the game journos.
my interpretation of thors character is that he clearly wanted to live up to odins expectations, and was once his favorite son. Thor relished i’m being odins strongest soldier/a destroyer, however i think it’s because he just wanted to be destined for something great. once he realized he was nothing better than a weapon, a gun to point and shoot, he fell into his hole of alcoholism and abuse. the thor who could’ve been a hero to all was never taught he could be that way, and by the time he could’ve tried to be better, it was too late
Yeah his story in this game is like really depressing when I think about I mean before release I thought Thor was gonna be this ruthless always uncaring man but he really wasn’t in this game gotta admit this interpretation of Thor is definitely something at least for me because all I’ve ever known was marvel Thor
Yea but you can't ignore the fact that he was raised by the biggest asshole of the nine realms which severly influenced they way he turned out to be.
All these stories of him getting drunk and getting into fights seem to me like some kind of outlet for thor when he couldn't life up to odins expectations.
Thor needed more time on screen. More direct conversation between him and Kratos. More expression of how he actually feels about the things he's done, more about him basically having PTSD from being a one-man-army killing hundreds. There was a lot of wasted potential with Thor, imo
@@buckyhurdle4776 just wanted to say I completely agree like my only complaint was Thor like in game he was so cool and once he was on screen he stole the show at least for me I just wish there were 3 Thor fights in the game I mean the missions where Thor was with Atreus were cool they did give and idea about Thor character and how different he is compared to Kratos but even then if kratos and Thor fought again in the middle of the story the ragnarok fight would’ve felt so much better but that’s just my opinion of course
@@NewCovenantOfChrist yea, but u can say the same for kratos, he was raised horribly as a spartan but never used that as an excuse for his actions. thor did too when he screams “do you know what i’ve done” to kratos. they’ve both undeniably done shitty things for shitty reasons, all you can do is be better moving forward
If I’m going to be honest I like how they handled thor in here, I wish he got a bit more screen time but instead of making him a brutal character for no reason they make him someone who was broken due to how he was raised and treated by Odin for years
He’s almost the opposite of Kratos, while Kratos tried to move on from his past after having Atreus, Thor sorta delved into the idea of only being a weapon even after having Thrud
I was genuinely surprised by Thor. In GoW 2018, we hear stories of Thor as some sort of murdering pyschopath who delights in inflicting suffering and pain on those around him.
But in Ragnarok, we see a man who is as much a victim of suffering as he is its source.
@@Killzoneguy117 exactly, while it’s sad how he ends I’m glad Kratos was actually willing to give him a chance and stop fighting
@@Killzoneguy117 it's because that's how Thor wants the people of Asgard to see him
It’s even more interesting that he’s both the same and opposite of kratos, both being brutalized by their fathers and having ongoing tragedy in their lives, both lost children, both were seen by their people as destroyers, both saw their new child as a second chance at who they are,
In a funny way this is sort of what the Last of Us 2 tried to do with Abby making her a reflection of Joel but this was done with more care
@@Killzoneguy117 thor used to be a murdering psychopath, look how he treated his sons. Midir says it in this video, it wasn't until the birth of Thrüd that he went sober and tried to be an actual father.
I'm glad that Mimir is still happy for Thor and Sif giving up their drinking habits for Thrúd. He knows they're trying to be better, and that Odin is a big reason why Thor was so abusive. Odin told Atreus that he can't be nice to Thor because Thor doesn't listen when being asked nicely. Odin abused his son so much, the only times he only responds to orders and insults.
Thrud btw not thud she’s not a goddamn character from the Flintstones. 😂😂
@@RRswag70 Sorry, it was a typo. I fixed it.
@@jacobcox4565 Considering his best mate is his hammer, wouldnt be all weird if he named his daughter thud hahaha
"Odin told Atreus that he can't be nice to Thor because".
Odin in this game is portrayed as a run of the mill abusive narcissist.
Shifting blame like that is a key mechanic they use in psychologically torturing and manipulating people.
Fuck, even when Odin killed Thor, he was saying it was Thors fault.
"Look what you made me do" is one of the most typical lines you'll hear any narcissist utter. Shifting the blame on their victims.
Learning about Thor in this game made me finally decide that yes, Kratos is a good dad. Not perfect, but a damn good one.
i mean the same could still be said about thor despite what he did it was still apparent that he loved his children and given his conversation with sif there was a time when he was a good father.
Considering the time and where they are, Kratos is probably one of the best dad that ever lived
@@pforgottonsoul didn't he beat Modi within an inch of his life and then sent him to his death,then when he comes to collect his "blood payments" from kratos he stopped when kratos knocked out HIS tooth,so basically his sons where worth one tooth to him
You actually needed a comparison?
@@davidhamilton6883 Odin ordered not to kill him. If it wasn't for him he would definitely fight to the death back there.
Shit, Kratos would've been dead since Thor likely wouldn't revive him after that QTE.
I love how this game has so many parallels and Thor being a sort of 'failed' Atreus is a very simple but effective one to show the importance of a father not only in the theme of the game but also in the development of a child
Thor serves as BOTH a failed Atreus and a failed Kratos.
I still think Thor punished modi because he didn't want odin to punish modi for his failure because if he did then he would have died.
That’s a good theory and it makes sense, we already saw that Odin cares very little for Thors sons, going so far as to calling them useless in front of him. So I’m sure he’d have no problem disciplining Modi severely.
I doubt Odin would have killed Modi for failing. Thor lost the mask, Odin's most cherished object, and didn't get killed for it. He got killed for refusing to follow orders.
@@LordKingKamiGuru yeah but that’s THOR, he has some cred, if his sons were already perceived as useless a “you failed me for the last time” wouldn’t be past Odin
I think Thor was harsher on Modi because he looked like him, so a lot of Thor's self-hatred was inflicted unto him. Thor favored Magni because of his blonde hair, which makes him look closer to Sif, which is a positive in Thor's mind.
@@AfroHayot unlikely because as you said he found them both useless so he wouldnt care if one ended up 6f under
Listening to the way Thor talks about himself it's really clear that Odin was the one who got it into his head that he's good for nothing but being a destroyer.
Especially Thor's insistence that thinking is bad makes be theorize that maybe early in his days of killing giants Thor realizing that many giants barley put up a fight and maybe even lingering love for his mother made him approach Odin with questions on why he's doing this.
Odin probably responded by emotionally and physically abusing him for questioning him, and telling him that thinking will only lead him to pain. And Thor excepted it out of fear and want of approval from his father.
People truly believe that toxic masculinity means “Masculinity=bad”
In reality it’s a look on how some people truly believe that men are supposed to act in one way and not the other. Like some people believe that men need to suck it up and get over things and never show emotion. That’s toxic.
Mimir didn’t say raising your kid to be a man is toxic itself but how he did it was.
Kratos himself is an example of raising a boy to be a man done in a healthy way.
Toxic Masculinity isn’t only about how men act either. It’s about how society treat men and how negative it can be.
But teaching men to control emotions it's a good thing and that's what Kratos taught to Atreus; men who act based on emotions have impulsive tendencies towards violence due to impulsiveness and lack of self-control.
@@TheBatman39 yes but that can overstep to a point of inhumanity, I.e. when Kratos realized the fact that Atreus didn’t close his heart to the suffering of others all the time was not a bad thing and should not be taken out of him. Compared to Odin who wants Thor to be nothing but an unemotional killer to the point that Thor was closing himself off to his family even though he clearly has the ability to care for them.
There’s a difference between teaching emotional control and teaching someone to lack emotions. Teaching a man to lack emotions is inhumane and antithetical to what it means to be human, and society treats this as something cool and not horrific.
@@deadmeme902 fair enough
I think one of the best examples was why Kratos never trained Atreus like a Spartan.
Not because he didn’t think he wouldn’t be “Man enough” but because for all the good it did breeding warriors it made them terrible people and he wanted Atreus to have a real childhood. One I bet he wished he could’ve had with Deimos.
Kratos is just there listening to all of it while recounting back his Spartan childhood.
He thinking they soft compared to his living hell of a childhood.
I was listening and then "wait, did they slip in a "toxic masculinity" speech into GoW? Like the GoW where Kratos, the Spartan goes around and fucking kills everything, including concepts? What the heck.
@@Limrasson Yes. Yes they did. I heard it first time too
@@Limrasson yes, the series where they show him regreting doing that
@@dirtydeedsdirtcheep3007 But there is a banter scene where Kratos remembers how hard his childhood was and it's on the tone of "Spartans were great warriors otherwise they were dead." and if I remember correctly it was more on a matter of fact / prideful tone and not "children are sad :("
What I'm getting at is that maybe, just a bit, the tones are too close to modern way of thinking.
For me, the Aesir tell the tale of abuse. The abusive nature of Odin passed down to Thor, who passed it on again to Magni and Modi. But abuse is both ways. Thor's abuse of his sons also hurt him, if more emotionally than physically. And forcing yourself to do better? To be more than all you've ever known and force yourself to be a better person. That's real strength.
It’s generally great how they made Thor a strong reflection of Kratos being these battle crazed warriors but after constant tragedy and loss of children they come to question what they saw as their nature, this story even breaks a heavy critical trope as Thor is given a chance at redemption and in the end he takes its even if it was short lived, the constant critique of other media being the idea of how could you let a literal monster redeem themselves over so many terrible acts, yet our protagonist Kratos is no different his past self was to the eyes of the innocent an evil monster and for very good reason, God of War and Ragnorak are are based around this idea of redeeming the irredeemable, Kratos giving Thor a chance and Loki even giving Odin a chance pushes this idea to its peak,
I don’t think anyone by face value would ever want anything beyond death for Thor but once comparing who he is to the hero we’ve been rooting for it’s clear that he too could improve, then there is Odin and Gna who refuse the notion of second chances and change so they are given a fate that befits their stagnant views, it all comes together beautifully with the story saying that their actions nor Kratos’ can ever truly be forgiven but they can still walk on and “be better”
I thibk the only thing that stopped kratos from becoming thor was diciplin.
@@firmak2 Would say the major difference is that Kratos's shitty father was not a present influence during his childhood while Thor's was.
Spoilers
“Some only learn the truth the hardest way”
After Odin killed her father and yeeted her across Asgard with mjolnir, I’d say that’s a bit of an understatement for Thrud
Aye bro you might wanna put a spoiler warning on this. It's totally ur choice but I'd recommend u do cuz theirs a very high chance ppl will read it and get shitty with you for spoiling it. Trust me, I've seen it everywhere on GOW Ragnarok vids.
i put a like not for the comment but for the respect you showed by putting the (spoiler). thank you.
Its kind of interesting that all of the issues the Norse gods have all stem from Odin
Like a chronically abusive and manipilative grandfather who scarred multiple generations with his selfish need to be the dominant personality
It really paints the whole pantheon with a lot of complexity.
And the idea that both Thor and Sif are desperately trying to break the cycle of abuse after losing Magni and Modi is oddly wholesome. Its just a tragedy it took the loss of both their sons to realise how terrible they were to them.
its a little disappointing that we never got much info on how Baldur viewed the family/pantheon beyond that he recognized that it had serious issues. Baldur had value to Odin but we never hear if he suffered the same sort of expectations and manipulations or dismissiveness and abuse that Thor and Heimdall have.
Thors story is what kratos story coulda been if zeus won
Or if he just broke disciplin
or maybe if Zeus became a more present figure in Kratos childhood
Its more like how were zeus and hercules
Personally Thrúd was one of my favourite characters in the game
So was Thor
Both father and daughter teach how mistakes can be corrected through generations ✌️
Thor really is just a father trying to live up to his dads expectations, even if those expectations are infinite knowledge
Pay attention when Thor tries to stand up to Odin, Odin always says don't make Sif think for you.
But when Odin wants something from him he always says don't think just do as I say.
Baldr escaped being raised by Odin but Thor couldn’t, Baldr went mad, unable to feel, his mother damned him to be dead walking, cause of her overprotective nature, brought on by Odin’s disregard for his children as anything but tools
0:22
Yeah, Atreus knows this for sure. Simply not knowing the truth almost killed him.
God the foreshadowing in this dialogue is insane
"A poisonous notion of manhood to be passed down through generations..."
PAY ATTENTION PEOPLE, PAY ATTENTION. Kratos redefines manhood and parenthood by expressing love and trust to his child!
So, Sif was a baddie back in the days. God, I would love to have a spin-off game about Thor's adventure and how he massacred all of the giants. We could also play this game on Faye's perspective. Either way both would be divinely great!
I'm surprised that no one is talking about balder like he was also part of the family
True but he seems to have been favored and you couldnt really fo anything against baldur since he couldnt care about anyone else nor be hurt.
@@firmak2 Odin is like Zeus is the sense that he has no "favorites"
@@firmak2 That's because Baldur is immune to all threats, physical or magical
@@TheBatman39 he has favorites for usefulness.
This actually changes how you look at thor when he beat the shit out of his son. He was probably pissed and drunk af and went off on a drunken rage, taking out his insecurities on his sons. He definitely loved his sons, but he obviously regretted it enough to the point he stopped drinking for a bit. That’s an interesting look they bring on thor with this convo
All the while Kratos thinking it sounds easy compared to Spartan Training lol
It really would have been
It’s..l nice? I guess? To know that Sif was just as guilty as Thor. Makes her acceptance of kratos make more sense. And also explains the difference between Thrud and her brothers.
I find it weird Mimir goes from calling thor a fat Dobber and having zero respect for the guy, to this.
Well you can when you try to have a proper discussion about someone
That's the difference between giving your personal opinion and being objective.
"A harsh upbringing."
Kratos: *Laughs in Spartan.*
I believe that a very important angle to think of is the fact that Thor was a half giant. I wonder if his hatred for the giants is in anyway rooted to how his “half-people” treated him, being absorbed in prophecy and knowing Thor turns out to be the biggest giant killer in history. Perhaps they treated him and his mother like garbage bringing the prophecies into fruition?
And Thor and Sif came an inch or two away from killing Atreus. Would have been the biggest mistake they wouldn't live to regret.
Chaos would've rise again.
I wonder though... I remember Sindri said Magni and Modi had different moms just like in the myth. But I wonder how they came upon to being raised by Sif as well.
"They raised them harshly"
@@deadmanexperience724 I mean how were they put in Asgard?
@@Erricane idk maybe their mother already deceased or something
in the case of Magni it's probably just a stepmum thing. after all Thor is still his father and Sif is Thor's wife. his mother is probably dead since in norse myth his mother was a giant and Thor seems to have a very long history of killing giants.
in Modi's case he's actually Sif's son (meaning that he and Thrud are full siblings), having him be raised by his own mother doesn't really need an explaination.
@@Eclipsed_Embers Oh I know the story of Magni and Modi's mom. They're both not Æsir. Magni was born from the Giantess, Járnsaxa while Modi's mom is unknown. Only Thrud is confirmed more god than her brothers. My question is how were they accepted in Asgard and treated as one of them to the point Sif even cared for them so much. The way Sif talked about them was like she knew them since they were kids. I wanna know how did they end up in her care.
Course then Sif's dumb ass nearly brings the Ghost of Sparta down on Asgard.
That ass may be dumb, but it sure is Hela thicc.
As far as I'm concerned, that's Asgard's ass
Thor = Tell me about the bunnies, Loki
I am kinda not sure how to think of thor. I am reminded of how magni and modi acted around loki and how he disrespectful and useless they turned out to be. Plus he beat up his son for no real reason and called him a "coward." Yet at the same time when he's around his daughter he appears like he's trying to change and even Sif reminded him of how they made wooden horses for them and the boys would sleep with them on their laps when they were young.
It's because Modi is a victim of another victim. Sif mentioning the wooden horses shows that Thor had moments of genuine, fatherly love. But that love was overshadowed by Odin's constant expectations and paranoia. Notice how Modi is much smaller than his brother Magni. Notice also how Modi is literally the spitting image of Thor. Odin constantly abused Thor growing up. Modi prolly reminded Thor of everything he felt about himself----stupid and never good enough, small and livining in the shadow of someone greater, foul and brutal not because he wants to be, but because if he doesn't, he'll be looked down upon even further.
Thor abusing Modi was basically Thor expressing his own self-hatred.
Abuse is complex, just like people
Thor had parental issues
You really do feel bad for everyone in these games no one has a good childhood or life everyone is just tragic and has lost so much but they’re trying to push forward and do what they can such an amazing game and series
Kratos's childhood was all about becoming a spartan which has the same level of harshness of what mimir said or maybe even more.
However Spartan train has one good side, it wasn’t the parents who raised them. Despite the similar levels of abuse Spartans wouldn’t face that kind of familial abuse.
Yes, the game is clearly trying to draw parallels to Kratos and Thor as weapons. They both had harsh childhoods and turned into nothing but human weapons for their respective fathers. The difference is Odin turned Thor into his personal weapon through manipulation while Zeus set Kratos against him. Kratos got free of his bonds and had time and a family that helped him be reformed while Thor was still trapped by Odin and was emotionally beaten down all the while.
They should have invested more in this plot
Into thor more generally too. The way it ended felt like a waste to me
@@firmak2 me too, unfortunately, they nailed the look, the voice and they wasted him
It is tragic how even now some fathers teach their sons to be a man is to be cruel
The only plot hole i see in mimirs talking about magni and modi's childhoods, thors and sif parenting in the 2018 and ragnarok is when sif talked to thor about the time when their boys were young and small when they spent nights in the campfire, them falling asleep in thor and sifs laps and chests, and carving them wooden horses. How didnt mimir know about this and only knows about them being bad parents?
"smartes man alive"
Doesn't know about olives either
Simple, the writers overlooked all of that and the plot got sloppy in this new game
@@TheBatman39 or their method of raising them changed, it's possible they became harsher on them as they got older and those times they were reminiscing about were when the boys were really young
abusive parents aren't all cartoonishly evil people who hate their kids, or at least they don't start that way. Thor and Sif probably did dote on their sons as babies and small children, but as they got older they probably expected more and more of them, which inevitably led to disappointment in them, which then led to resentment, and so on. compound this with the fact that both Sif and Thor have violent and alcoholic tendencies, and eventually, you get to where we were at in the previous game. what Sif is talking about in that scene is likely indicative of the regret she feels, and the yearning to do better with Thrud, something she and Thor probably both agreed on considering it's implied Thor attempted quitting drinking for his daughter before the events of Ragnarok. I can imagine after their sons died, Sif and Thor had a discussion similar to Faye and Kratos, where Sif pushes the idea of them being better, and Thor was fearful that the cycle can't break. The only difference is Kratos was able to break away from the past and move on, whereas Thor couldn't until the very end.
I’ll say this, it’s not manly to be sole brute that’s always eager to fight, that’s always eager to loose his temper or fuck anything that walks. It’s not manly to be like a bull in a China shop
The sins of the father shall be visited upon the son
i guess im one of the few people that didn't like the humanization of the Aesir. I just wanted blood thirsty brutes for Kratos to smash. Similar to the original titles where he'd give no quarter to the Greek pantheon
1:36
Toxic masculinity has nothing to do with how Thor was raised. Odin was just plain abusive and manipulative, as shown by his interactions with everyone he has known.
You can even see how he emotionally manipulates his son right in front of you based on his interactions. All of those actions, the belittling, the shaming, the "You were better as a drunk", are not tied in any bit to Odin's gender, so calling it "toxic masculinity" is just another shoehorn for that phrase where it never belonged.
They didn't even say toxic masculinity. And the drunk part doesn't seem like the stuff you would say to a child, so the toxic masculinity part was propably referring to how Odin raised Thor when he was young
I agree that usage of the term is generally pernicious, but here it seems benign. It refers to the physical abuse and the corresponding command to man up to it.
@@dirtydeedsdirtcheep3007 he's referring to when mimir says "a poisonous notion of manhood" 1:11
@@ORION00119that wasn’t really about toxic masculinity I don’t think, that was describing what it means to be a “disciplined” man, i.e. you just kill as your father commands you
@@ORION00119 my point still stands, it sounds pretty natural
deez
I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU
nuts
Got
Em
Crot
mimir touching on toxic masculinity is so sweet he really is the best bro .
Now that is real toxic masculinity. Kratos is tough but not for the sake of tough.
Toxic masculinity=Men interpreting hedonistic traits as "masculine"
A stupid story, why all this bad embodiment of Thor and his family, even though in legends Thor and his family were not that bad This is all to show Kratos that he is a good person, and they could have let Thor live and Odin kills him himself in revenge for him because he is stronger than him in real mythology, but this game distorted everything. I wished to see the stupid director let Thor live with his family a happy life
Stfu. Why does this have to be exactly the same as the actual norse myths? Stop crying.
Oh god, are we really going down the "muh toxic Masculinity" approach? No wonder people view the game as somewhat feminine compared to the previous versions.
This was literally a single line of dialouge that was optional and the two games with atraeus have been partially about what it is to be a good man and father. Don't get triggered so easily snowflake
@@dirtydeedsdirtcheep3007 Being a weak emotional mess makes a good man/father? Sounds like somebody was either raised by a single mother or a beta for a father.
“Don’t talk about topics that make me uncomfy pwease”
@@deadmeme902 and they will call others snowflakes
@@dirtydeedsdirtcheep3007 Says the snowflake that deleted their comment after getting called out 😂
"Thor is bad cause muh toxic masculinity"
Cry about it
Said no one, stop making things up.
Stupid Odin raised the god of war with his toxic masculinity. Obviously god of war just wants to express his feminine side and sensitivity.
I feel like people are reaching with bullshit takes like this instead of focusing on the things that are actually wrong with the game
Thor isn’t the Norse God of War you ingrate
MEn expressing their emotion is cringe why society don't care about men this is the feminist fault. Good job ! Your are the reason why male suicide is high.
Oh good..toxic masculinity being blamed for stuff in a God of war game. I see politics is still infesting gaming
What part of "don't beat your children" says toxic masculinity to you?
Seems you just see what you want to see. This isn't about masculinity in itself, only abuse. Seriously you have some misdirected political anger here.
@@EmptyMan000 (assuming this person is as right winged as I am) They should absolutely love this game and the concept of teaching your child to be better than you and passing on the better aspects of what you as a father have learned.
Both kratos and Thor were beaten, formed into a mould through the worst ways possible, rigorous physical training for kratos, mental abuse for Thor.
But they were both able to overcome this.
Kratos was able to train Atreus through kindness (albeit in the form of tough love) and Thor is helping Thrud by letting her follow her dreams by not only being supporting her but by presumably being there with her, not at the drinking hall.
You'd think that by keeping the themes and parallels of the Nuclear family would hit closer to home with fellow righties.
Not to mention that the game is still full of violence, gore, weapons and armor.
@@FierceDeity35 sadly brother people hear one little buzz word and all that art and symbolism goes out the window. Folks need to learn not to be so reactive.
Not to mention Mimir calls it a twisted form of masculinity. As in not real masculinity
You sound so much like a victim lol grow some balls
They just had to include a mention of toxic masculinity, didn't they? Just like they had to make Sigrun a feminist all of a sudden by making her point out how Mimir helped all those MEN abuse women.
and tell me logically why Sigrun wouldn't be a femenist?
@@teenybopper2352
Because it isn’t applicable to the culture?
@@pcmld2267 What culture? the one were awful male rulers completely and consistently fail their subjects? yeah no idea why a member of an all female fighting force would have an opinion about that
Actually, in the culture of these Norsemen, or vikings whatever you know them as, women were seen as equal to men. They could buy land, divorce, and fight for their home. All things that men could do in that era. So it makes sense that these things are applicable to their culture.
@@artorios637 Can confirm and back up with archeological finds in viking/Norse battlefields where bones of women with remnants of armor and weapons on them were found
Yep should've known they would throw something in about toxic masculinity. Just as stupid as them toning down kratos's appearance because they gave in to the game journos crying about kratos being as jacked as he was in games prior is toxic.
I mean a story like this is a good place to do it. It's a tale of a father and son learning to grow together, there's obviously going to be some issues with what "being a real man" means when Kratos has had such a hard life and has had to move on from a lot of toxic traits
@@teenybopper2352 The problem there is that while the reasoning behind that, do you think for even a moment there aren't those that aren't going to crank that up to 11, especially in this day and age. And the whole concept is stupid as a whole, a man is a man, they're always real. The idea behind a "real one" is pretty damn dumb. There's good guys and then there's bad ones, whoopty.
@@wholesome_masochist4113 well that's just being obtuse around the language and having a closed mind. There's been nothing in these games that's been ingenuine or even hidden about this topic, but now that it's said in words out loud and its "gone too far"?
@@teenybopper2352 You're talking about being obtuse and closed minded about language while intentionally being that yourself? Dude, the entire point I made was literally that people were going to go nuts over it and the resulting hornet's nest being kicked would start a shit show with the game journos.
This is what happens when we stop shoving nerds into lockers and taking their lunch money.