For me it’s similar to the feeling of being humiliated, even though I know the request is reasonable and that the person making the request has no ill intentions
Same. The only problem is I have a hard time saying no, so when someone does not take the hint that I really don't want it when I say I do, and they do it anyways, I end up getting overwhelmed, and lash out at them, and tell them not to touch me/tell me what to do/ect.
I feel this ❤@@lemonboy31708 I am too agreeable , and dislike confrontation. I try to set boundaries in a fawny /smiley way.. And when it doesn't work, I eventually switch into saying it in a very angry and cold manner. It's really difficult to find the middle way.
Saying it feels “offensive” is very accurate. Such a hard emotion to deal with- and so unsolicited. I don’t WANT to automatically hate the idea of doing anything someone tells me to do, I fight against it like crazy, but it’s impossible to win.
Just wanted to write this. Autonomy is a biiiig thing for me. With everyday Tasks I try to learn how to Talk to myself in a more empowering rather than prescribing way and it makes suuuuch a difference.
@@chronischgeheilt I think I understand what you mean, but could you please give an example? I'm thinking along the lines of, "I can accomplish this task", vs. "I need to accomplish this task". I have been told that they'd like to explore a PDA diagnosis for my youngest child, and I just want to understand it better. How do I, as their mother, help them survive and thrive in this world?
@@AuDHD_Mom i have to preface I am not entirely sure whether my issues with this are PDA or something else. But as for examples, yes, yours was 👍🏼 I try to Tell myself Things Like "I am self determined." "It is my will to do these things for a specific reason." "It brings me Joy to be able to do things." These are phrases that click with me but I guess what makes one feel empowered could be highly individual too - we don't wanna be toxic positive or gaslighting... Negative example, unfortunately still very Common for me: "I must do this." "Do this!"
For me, it can vary between feeling very panicked or backed into a corner, or 'offended' in a way where it's like someone is threatening my autonomy. But it is also kind of paralyzing, and I am definitely aware of it and how it's affecting the people around me. I also feel very immature while I'm in that state, but it really is difficult to control. It feels like it's controlling me. I always feel so pathetic and upset with myself when it happens. Even my current therapist, whom I like, compared the behavior to a tantrum... It felt so invalidating, so thank you for talking about your experience with it as well. It helps to know I'm not just a broken loser and that I'm not alone in this.
You're not a broken loser :>!! I get that it's probably veery annoying to feel like you're not in control of yourself, but your natural response isn't pathetic, or something you should blame yourself for. You had very valid needs that weren't met, and that's frustrating for anybody
Wow, so you're not only dealing with the episode, you have on top of it thinking about how it affects the people around you. That is a lot on your shoulders! Much love ❤️ speaking as the primary caregiver of our granddaughter we are raising, all I am thinking about is what SHE is going through. I hope the people around you feel the same way as I do, only love and care about your well being so it can hopefully take at least some of that pressure you feel about worrying about them ❤❤❤
This video and learning more about PDA has helped me so much in understanding myself. For those in the comments confused about the acronym - PDA stands for either Pathological Demand Avoidance, or Persistent Drive for Autonomy (which is the more ND affirming term). It’s a way many autistic people’s nervous systems respond when demands are placed on them. The body interprets demands (orders, instructions, direct questions, chores/actions that need doing etc) as threats, and triggers flight/fight/freeze/fawn responses. Usually making it impossible or extremely difficult to do the thing, even if it’s something easy and or that the person wants to do. The sensation is really hard to describe.
For me, I’ve discovered that it’s purely about avoiding the fear. I wouldn’t have been able to articulate that until recently, but that’s what it is. There are many uncertainties that come up with any task and ALSO opportunity cost which also causes anxiety. When I push through and try to do the thing and pay attention to what I feel, I notice I get anxious about the thought of not being able to do the actual thing I want to do at the moment, I get anxious about the idea of being forced to do things I don’t want to do forever, I get anxious about the energy it’s going to take that I won’t have for other things that might come up, and of course I get anxious about the pressures of the task itself - will I mess up, will I find out I am incapable of doing the thing, will I find out it’s going to take way longer than I thought, will it consume all my resources. So literally, it’s all just variations of anxiety, but if you avoid it effectively enough, it doesn’t feel at all like anxiety, just aversion
That's amazing I remember having PDA as a teenager and young adult but I haven't experienced it in a while. My anxiety has also lessened over the years. You may be spot on
What helps me is when people ask nicely, not just demanding or say stuff like "Go do this." Or "Go do that." But saying things like "Do you mind doing this?" Or "Can you please do that?"
@@57kittens also very helpful when people say "will you ___ WITH me please?" Then it doesn't feel like being made a spectacle of, they are doing everything they ask of you also
But not "the trash needs to be take out" The correct response to "the trash needs to be taken out" is "Sure looks that way" lol If you want me to empty it, say so. Tell me why you can't do it yourself and I'll decide whether to add it to my list, where I do not currently see "take out trash" and cross it from your list like I did last week. Again. We are a home full of PDA but we have built a way that works for us right now😂
I think for the last part a lot more people can relate than you imagine. I believe most people experienced this with chores. When you have a thought of oh these things need to be done, let me do it. But as you go to do it someone says to you to do them. A lot of people feel anger and resentment as a result. Maybe hurt pride too. This generally leads to the person that was about to do the task to not want to do it. Personally for me its usually a: "well now I cant do it because I was about to do it but because you asked now you'll think I only did it because you asked and that's not the case at all so to prove that wrong we're going to ignore it. 😤" In a breathless tangent just like that.
Thank you for these shorts. I have a 16 year old son that has many similar traits to you Toren, and this is helping me understand him so much better. I really appreciate your willingness to explain these things so I can understand him better.
Everyone has their own likes and preferences....to do mindless tasks to please someone else, when the task are of no interest, and bring no pleasure, seems like a waste of time, and effort. You are helping to forge a better key to unlock the creativity, and find some solutions. ❤ Thank you both.
I know EXACTLY what you mean Toren. It actually is making my grades suffer a lot. When people ask me to do something, it makes me feel offended for some reason. When im assigned classwork that isnt engaging enough or is just something to do only because the teacher told us to, its extremely hard for me to do it. Im Diagnosed with ADHD and I might have autism too, and honestly this isnt something people know a lot about. Thank you for talking about it ❤❤❤
I'm 28 and autistic and recently realized I have PDA and it was like my whole life suddenly made sense. Like wholy cow there's a reason I'm this way I'm not just broken. I usually feel super defensive and annoyed when someone asks me to do something and then it's like my brain puts up a wall between me and the task and if I try to do it I just get more frustrated for no apparent reason.
You are so well versed for having autism. I have a child with autism, but they do not say much at all, but are very intelligent. Am showing them your content. Thank you ❤
I’ve seen a few of your videos now and I am now going to get my daughter into a dr for an evaluation for the autism spectrum. She is now 11 years old and I had no idea about autism until these past few years. I always assumed she was just being rudely with everyone but now looking back and seeing other folks stories and them talking about things I now know that the speech delayed development and still ongoing with this is just apart of the autism spectrum. Thank you for sharing your own personal experiences it has helped me to be able to understand a little better and now I can look into this more and learn myself how to better help my daughter and in the process help our entire family as a unit grow more happily with understanding. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼😊🥰🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
I’m impressed that you are able to reflect on these questions Mama Wolf asks you. You’re more self-aware than a lot of guys your age. Even so, it can be very difficult to explain some feelings. There are some people in my family who automatically say “No” to anything that is suggested to them, or asked of them. Sometimes, I just have to wait a while and bring it up again later, after they’ve had time to think about it.
*me after discovering PDA is not 'public display of affection'*: hmm, i wonder what that is... *me 0.1 seconds after Googling it: THATS WHAT THAT FEELING IS?!
For me it's like a loss of control and powerlessness, being treated non-human, disrespected, controlled. It's an instant desire to do anything but what someone tells me to do. And no one stops doing it no matter if you explain to them to stop treating you like you're 10. No one cares that it make you less likely to do something. They just continue making things worse. Edit: physically, it's like bugs crawling in my veins.
Oh Toren my brother from another mother. I've never even met you and I relate more to you than just about anyone else I've ever met. I feel like my autism, ADHD, and PDA are constantly clashing. I do struggle with eating, hygiene and self-care, however I think I generally respond to reasonable 'demands' fairly well. Life is a long series of demands. I mostly respond badly when the demand is delivered badly, or the demand itself is unreasonable. An example: at a new doctor's office I will write my name address and other information one time, and sign where required. If you would like that information copied onto multiple other forms, that is up to you and your staff. My partner and I both love your videos. You're a good man Charlie Brown. 😏
Du bist perfekt, so wie du bist! Wir haben alle unsere Probleme mit Gefühlen und Erwartungen anderer. Ich finde es toll, dass du das so offen aussprichst!
❤this kid has gone thru a lot he is amazing even during a recent meltdown his first thought was to educate his followers the footage is raw and gut wrenching to watch you can tell it’s from the heart❤️
My son is 48 now. When he was diagnosed with ADHD when he was in second grade there was very little known about the disorder. They tried Ritalin because that’s all there was at the time. He refused to take it after a few times because he said he didn’t like the way it made him feel. The school wanted to put him in special education classes. We took him to a psychiatrist because they thought it was a mental illness. Of course now we know better and I feel bad about all the trauma we probably inflicted on him unintentionally due to ignorance. We have come a long way.
I explain it as not allowing someone to make you a "trick pony" - instant anger and pride and defenses. I refused a lot as a kid, then learned to logic my way out of it - because I know that isn't what is actually happening. But it's my son's biggest struggle now.
i see this in both a coworker friend as well as myself...i really can't say where it comes from or what emotion to associate with it. often for me, it feels like, i'll do that thing if it becomes a logical step in my process but i won't if it doesn't seem to have a place. i've developed the maturity, sheer willpower, or plain desperation to overcome it at work where it really isn't helpful (maybe this is a form of masking?) but honestly the feeling of it inside me never goes away. i suppose it's one of the negative aspects of being autistic that many of us have to cope with and try to prevent from doing damage to our lives and relationships. i have no real technique to overcome it, and at home i just allow it to express itself however it does.
As an adhd'er something along those lines has affected me too, though I think to a lesser degree. Requests will often feel like insults or criticisms. It'll feel less like - hey, could you do this thing - and more like - why haven't you already done the thing? Bonus points if it was a reminder or if it was something I was already gearing up toward doing...
Sometimes it feels like all of a sudden I’m in a burning building that I’m unfamiliar with. It feels threatening and then I respond with fawning like a survival response. I’ll just do whatever I’m told. I’ve been doing my best to break myself of that habit.
i dealt with this too. its like my mind would shut off. my parents thought I was doing it on purpose cause I was lazy. I didn't even know why I didn't do my homework. my dad had to drag me to school to get my homework. many teachers were so rude to me because of this. i always did enough to barley pass my year. i never read a single book, I wouldn't mind at all if people were reading to me, but if you asked me to read, I wouldn't do it. you could force me to sit there with a book and threatened to give me a quiz on what i read and I would just day dream instead.
Diagnosed autistic at 31 3 years ago but just starting to realize I have PDA. Not as strongly, I think, as many people do, but it's definitely there. Happens a lot with roommates 😭
This! Never knew what it was called but I had that persistent feeling of “no!” when someone asked me to do something or they commented on what I was already doing. Still strongly affects me now
It makes me feel like I’m backed into a corner, like I don’t have a choice. I know neurotypicals probably think I’m being a brat but it’s a very annoying emotion to deal with. I usually avoid doing certain things if it’s sounds passive aggressive like “go do this now”. Where is a please in that sentence? And I’m more likely to do something if it’s said in a more polite and non aggressive manner where I have the option of when I do it. Idk it’s hard to describe 😅
well, i just learned a new meaning for pda. i literally only knew the other version. i need to read more into this, maybe explains some of my strong need for control or that could be the ptsd or gad at play. i fluctuate between hating being told what to do and needing/wanting people to tell me what to do (bc otherwise it won't occur to me). I am not sure why, maybe its the task, tone of voice, or their behavior that makes the difference for me.
I can sometimes get around my own PDA (particularly in the workplace) by verbally saying no but going through with the request anyway. But other times (more at home in a “safe environment”) I will allow my PDA to take the reins for a little longer until I can voluntarily choose to do the task asked of me.
I am autistic and I've always queried the belief that PDA is a response to feeling anxious. I genuinely think it's a response to not wanting to be controlled and not believing that it's respectful or right for people to control you! Adults don't like being controlled or ordered around so why is it ok to do it to children? I do, however, remember having times where I would completely freeze and be unable to talk or barely communicate. This, though, was something completely different, and not a constant, daily thing! With me it was linked to PTSD ❤
It's ironic that we're considered to be strict binary (either/or, black/white) thinkers when we're conditioned for years in school to expect that there is only ever One Right Answer to any question. Personally I think PDA is less about avoidance than it is about protesting in defiance of arbitrary authority, aka PDAA. Any time anyone has ever given me an ultimatum I automatically call their bluff: I refuse to have those kinds of terms imposed on me because I know it's a paradox, not an honest choice.
for me it feels like...when someone tells me what to do, I suddenly have this very strong feeling of "now i don't want to/can't do it anymore". I do think you got really close with the "offensive", it's as if I would need to protect my independence/autonomy, the right to choose when things happen and how they happen. It's as if someone telling me to do something I get sort of angry? It also happens when someone tells me NOT to do something or that I "can't" do something, which again is like someone is trying to take away my autonomy.... and it's difficult to deal with, cause sometimes the feelings that come with it, might make me lash out...and often enough I just can't do the thing I originally wanted to do then and that's incredibly frustrating >.< cause I still want it to be done...or know that it needs to be done, but when someone tells me to do it, it's like a switch is being flipped in my brain. And then I also learned at some point that i can even trigger it myself...when trying to make "demands" or requests towards myself...which I can't really avoid. What does help, is formulating things more like questions...like a suggestion without demand...it doesn't always help but when I say "could i do this right now?" it's very different from "i have to do this now"
@@Eryniell That comparison with being told that we 'can't' do something is so on point! And same for me, it's easier to do things when I leave the space for myself to say no
Now I know what it is. I have it. And I realised my son also does have it. He hates doing things because he "has to". So I do my best to let him be and do things when he hinself feels right to do. And at least give him a choice. So he can choose when he will for example tidy up or for how long or what part of the room.... all the tricks I do to myself to force the activities I hate doing because they are "chores". I feel supressed and when I must do something! Frr me it feels similar to rejection (I can't bear rejection, it brings real physical pain)
I describe it as feeling frozen to the spot and the more the demands, the more anxious and more frozen I become. Eventually it becomes distasteful and ridiculous and I don't want to do it. So I do something else that I do like. ND but not autistic.
@@Aceofspades2006 I don't believe I am autistic as although I have most of the same symptoms, my brain does not work in the same way as autism. I think of it as typical people having quite a narrow bandwidth whereas mine is very wide. One of my "special " interests has been, from the age of 7, human behaviour and I have read about and studied it ever since. My aspie friend and my aspie son think of themselves as aliens but I think of myself as mutant. Being tested is something I would dislike intensely and it is apparently expensive. Suppressing my demand avoidance at work was exhausting and stressful, bringing on panic attacks and shut downs. Now I live on benefits. I am happy as I am and still looking for a perfect job.
Hello, I'vee been diagnosed with Autism Specteum Disorder at age 54. PDA is definitely part of it for me. It mostly kicks in when simeone tells/asks me to do something I am already aware of having to do, would have done it, but focusing my attention on it "out of turn" ruins it for me. Another case it kicks in, is when I'm asked "Don't you want to...(whatever)" or "I want you to...(whatever) Just ask nicely, "Willem, please...(whatever within reason) then most of the time I'll do that right away, or as soon as I complete the task interrupted by the request.
I’m not sure I have this completely, but I do find requests like patronizing? sometimes. I think I have so much anxiety about managing my ADHD that when someone is telling me to do something it feels like they think I’m not capable of remembering or doing it on my own.
when i was 16, i drove a lil small pickup truck to school, and my bookbag would get thrown in the bed of that truck every day after school, and i wouldn't see it again till i parked the next morning in the school parking lot lol.. which had an extra surprise of occasionally being rained on overnight x.x
What usually helps me to get around this feeling is saying out loud, "I want to do this", or something similar. This also helps neurotypicals that are present to understand that I'm trying my best. It also helps to describe the moment with words, internally or loud doesn't matter. Remember that PDA is a stress reaction of your nervous system, so verbally/internally clarifying for yourself what the situation is and that you are not in danger can help a lot. Also I tell people around me to not use words like "must", "have to", "need to" when asking me for something, as those are trigger words. On high sensory days this feeling usually gets worse. I can still remember when I was little I was undiagnosed and I would yell at my mom when she triggered my PDA, thankfully she didn't punish me, but rather changed her vocab to comfort me. PDA was the main reason for my meltdowns, luckily I know more now and know how to comfort myself when somebody triggers me, I haven't had a meltdown in years.
Yes threatened and offended are the ways that I would mostly describe it. If it's something I was already doing or planning on doing especially I feel almost like I've been attacked when someone tells me to do the thing I was literally about to do. I get so angry even if I know It's the reasonable or correct thing to do. 😵💫
For me I'd describe it as it feels impossible to do now, or I've got to start gearing up for it from the start again. I tell people "if you are struggling to go to sleep, and someone comes along and tells you that you really HAVE to go to sleep, that you have to get up in 6 hours, it makes it less likely or impossible for you to go to sleep." Like you have to start the process of relaxing all over from the start. And chances are now lower that you can. Telling you you have to go to sleep makes it so you can't go to sleep. Not that you decide not to out of defiance. You just CAN'T now.
As a special educator I had to quickly learn the difference between avoidance behaviors and demand refusal. My twin sister demonstrates this to some extent. If asked to do something academic which she knows perfectly well to do, she will not be convinced or persuaded to do it unless it drives her energy and interests. “Busy work” is something I am against. I like to give my students choice. If the student chooses to do nothing but stare at a wall for minutes straight, that is still data. Other students are more willing to engage in unfavorable activities (reading, writing, math, etc) if the modality for the output changes and / or there is a set time limit. For every 30 minutes of work, there is a break. There are numerous ways to modify curriculum that respect how individual brains navigate the world we both live in.
when people ask me to do things, my gut reaction is "oh my god how am i going to alter my current mindset to allow me to fit this task in after i recover from the interruption" and it feels like it's too much to process and I get irritated because "well now here's this person i wasn't bothering who came to stop what i was doing without any consideration to how much energy this takes and they dont even give a damn unless i'm performing for them" kind of thoughts..
Wow i never knew this had to do with my autism! I always felt so akward and wrong when people asked me to do things almost like a fommand even as a kid when it was simple tasks. I just felt talked down to, like they were talking to a baby (even when i was a kid at the time haha)
My family often thought I was selfish for balking at being asked to do things. I do what needs to be done when people aren’t watching and when I choose to do it. Unfortunately this also occurs in relationships. If it feels like someone is demanding my time and attention, I feel anxious, resentful and repelled by that person.
for me it kinda feels like other people's demands closing in on me, like they won't respect the Way or Order i want to do things in. even if they will. especially when i had full intent of doing the thing at some other time, it feels like they don't Trust me to handle my responsibilities like an adult (context: I am an adult now but that feeling of not trusting me has always been frustrating), and that i need to not do the thing to demonstrate to them that This Won't Work
I feel soo offended sometimes when I find a note reminding myself to do something I'm already doing To me it feels exactly like "well, guess I can't do it now, someone has perceived my intent" It's like I want to do the thing at the time of my own personal choice *TO* my own personal satisfaction *FOR* my own edification, not because someone told me to do it When "they" take away that little bubble of dopamine I've been waiting for, I want nothing. Forever. Into the Void!
When your body is overwhelmed, like sensitive bodies are, your nervous system starts defending itself even without your consent if it feels like you are not able to protect yourself or escape the situation any other way. Because sensory overwhelm is so body based, with us not even recognising it half the time because it doesn't fit how we're taught we should be feeling, the body is what responds for us. The entirety of the nervous system starts seeing any disturbance as a potential threat because it's so threat oriented. It's like an overactive immune system that has developed allergies and autoimmunity, it's started saying "no" indescrminantly. So when a request is made the feeling of no already exists in every nerve throughout your body, and your limbic hindbrain takes over to force you to exhibit that socially. It's a fight response. Just like how the immune system can get more and more sensitive if it's exposed to certain toxins or viruses repeatedly, sensory sensitivity, emotional sensitivity from not having enough time and space to empty the bucket again, all these things reach a critical stage and that's when your body forces you to say no to everything. It's because so much of your mental energy is already going towards processing the overwhelm that any additional effort, in the form of an intentional activity you didn't have intrinsic motivation for, would tax your brain beyond an already critical capacity. It feels offensive because particularly as children, autisitic people believe everyone thinks and feels what they do. From that perspective, being told to do something with no regard to whether it was beneficial to you does feel offensive. Moralising things is also a strategy the brain uses to make us feel validated when we may not. I probably had pda as a child but I was a girl. It went away when I became more people motivated and humans became more the special interest, because pleasing others became an intrinsic motivation essentially inverting PDA without healing any causative factors. I did heal properly from this eventually through lots of slow work. I also developed communication and worked through fear of others reactivity/rejection enough that I felt confident (aka validated) in knowing and communicating any boundary that felt like it arose for me, at any time, and had the space to work the other person through difficult emotions my boundaries might bring up for them. So I didn't feel threatened by saying yes to things anymore, or by saying no, which meant my nervous system also didn't feel threatened. Self validation in the form of going through hypothetical conversations in your head and working through emotional reactions you feel, until those situations no longer make you feel potentially invalid in real life because you know how you feel, was the key step. Then recently I suffered a great deal of social trauma, autisitic stigma and burnout. I developed cptsd. I noticed I was developing PDA, I'd already begun reading about it before this stuff happened since I was working with neurodivergent kids. Prior to this I had also been practising body focused meditations for a decade, so my interception was significantly more pronounced than the average person. I could tell what state my nervous system was in easily, all the time. I could notice where involuntary thoughts were coming from. And I knew the PDA was coming from my fight response getting stronger and stronger. I'm really sad about this. I would love to talk to you more about this topic. I don't get notifications around RUclips comments but my insta handle is cat.blayk
It's a big reason, I feel, why they say most autistic people don't adhere to hierarchies. There's no reason why any one person has any sort of power over another. Sure, if someone has more experience with something, they can certainly make informed suggestions. But if they do it in a way that feels condescending, or that I should do it without any question is unacceptable. They can also inform me. I want to have a solidly informed reason why I am being asked to do something. It's like... give a guy a fish, he eats for the day. Teach the man to fish, he eats for his whole life. I don't want someone to do my thinking for me. Give me the information, the tools to understand the how and why of the task, and then yes, I will help. It is the law of existence: free will must not be infringed upon. But a person has a duty to inform himself, to not allow themselves to have their free will infringed upon by letting themselves be mindlessly controlled. At least thats how I feel about it.
I have actually found myself getting irrationally angry and disregulated in these moments. I also find that I am my most sarcastic and defensive self at these times. And I start taking the request as a personal attack. It has taken many years to recognize it for what it is. I grew up being called stubborn, and that's all I had to go off of for most of my life. Learning about pathalogical demand avoidance has started to help me compartmentalize my feelings a lot.
Does anyone else do this with their own self? Like when I think to myself “I have to” or “I need to” or “ I really should” do xyz.. but I can’t seem to force myself. It’s not lazy, it’s more than just, I don’t want to. I can’t explain it. I guess I just can’t be forced? Even by my own self and even if I know I need to do the thing. Even if I know it will be good when it’s done. I do not know how to explain this. Anyone else?
I get this exactly!! I’ve learnt to always phrase my to do lists and self talk as “I want to” or “I’m going to” such as “I’m going to vacuum today” or “I want to clean that” or a more general “that wants cleaning” or “that goes in the cupboard”. As soon as there’s any implication that xyz NEEDS to be done, something in my body just cannot let me do it.
Yes, definitely! I could see it clearly when I started adding fun things into my to-do list (to calm my anxiety about forgetting them). They start to feel like a chore, something I 'have to' do. Same with selfcare, it feels like I should do it (because it's good for me) and it blocks me. But I also have problems with prioritising and getting overwhelmed when I have too much to do. And I am not sure how much of it is a neurodivergent thing, how much is trauma related
I thrived with reading and writing. It was math, science, and history (in that order) classes that I hated. I was expected to do my school math work their way...and since their way made no sense to me, I failed math a lot. Only took pre-algebra in HS and had to take it 4 years...why? Cuz I couldn't get the hang of it. I never did pass that class. I was class of 96 and 99. In 98 I took my GED test. Signed up the last day and learned that I solve math problems illogically. Though now I forget what that means. I know I can do trig, but I honestly don't understand it. Scored in the top 2% in the US. Got GED diploma in Jan of 99. As for why I didn't graduate with my class - I never went through puberty I was being bullied every single day Phys Ed was a state requirement for graduation in 96. I refused to take that class Got out of HS with 48 out of 40 required credits, but since I refused to take phys ed.... Youngsters are lucky to get diagnosed so quickly. I grew up in a farming community. Small school, small town, small minds. Best I ever got diagnosed with back in the 80s was: depressed, anti-social, and lack of self esteem. Well gee, I wonder why. Oh wait, that's right - I was being bullied every single day. **rolls eyes** I was diagnosed right after my 42nd bday, nearly 5 years ago with autism I'm still trying to come to terms with it... Sure does explain a lot though!
My mom was like, “your aunt Mary has her boys sit down and finish their homework as soon as they get home from school, or they can’t go to sports practice, maybe we should do something like that.” And offended is absolutely the right word. The concept just sounded utterly RIDICULOUS, and there was no working with me. I will do my homework before it’s due, but do NOT tell me when to do it.
Yes. Also I panic a lot, like full panic. I jumped out of car ones (don’t worry they kinda stopped) cus they were not listening and telling me to stay, I was panicking they wouldn’t fuccing listen. I was shaking for like an hour or smt I also dissociated so idk.
But the thing is I know it’s “dramatic” but I can’t just do nothing cus then I dissociate and get more depressed and scared and then it will become a loop of anxiety and depression, then I can become manic.
I really hope in future and now they will do more research cus I can’t explain to people why I can’t do smt. People scream at me, tell me I’m dramatic, selfish, brat and much more but I just can’t. I freeze or run away.
I sometimes wonder if I have this... I have trouble with some things more than others... Like being told to do things I don't want to do really irks me. And I sometimes struggle completing things that don't have a purpose or isn't something I need.
Dear Toren, after 25 years, I think I found out why my autistic son hated school and is never willing to learn anything, and even if he did learn his school lessons, he hated himself for doing so. I think I got it now. I will try to read up on PDA to find out if there is a strategy to cope with it. Do you and your mom have any suggestions? Maybe you can make a video on it. I am still learning after quarter of a century… ❤️🇳🇱
I'd describe it as similar to a sudden case of fight-flight-freeze. It feels like on an instinctual/subconscious level something is wrong, and I need to immediately do something about it cos I'm in danger (I'm not). 😅
I THINK I don't have this, it's just the tone someone is telling me to do something. If I just wanted to do something and then I am told to in a way "why didn't You" (as a teenager) I immediatliy couldn't do any more. And as an adult if someone just has power but I know better and he acts like an idiot and tells me to do something that just doesn't make sense...nope. But if a kind person I respect for what she is doing/knowing tells me zo do something I like to to do and do my very best.
It is so hard to describe, because it's not really rational. It's like you have this part of your brain that reacts strongly in an irrational way but it doesn't feel irrational at all in that moment. And then when you go back to think about what happened later, your rational mind is in control so you can now see the irrational response for what it is. But you really only get that clarity after the fact.
😢 i love the rephrased "Persistent drive for autonomy" it de-villainizes PDA. The word "pathological" makes me feel evil. Like im doing this to make other's life harder.
I associate it more with ADHD. It’s a state where I get annoyed because I don’t feel I have a great deal of time to even do the things I want, let alone whatever request is coming from whomever. It’s like get that request out of my face! Ain’t nobody got time for that. 😂. But yeah.. it’s like putting your foot down and securing it with cement, glue, etc. you most likely aren’t going to change my mind.
How can we convey an idea, or a step toward the completion of a task (like... let's say... preparing a horse for horseback riding...)? How can we bring someone dealing with PDA to do such task?
It looks like most people got it, but if anyone is confused by the title, it stands for pathological demand avoidance, which is a manifestation of autism that some people on the spectrum experience.
So, im 60. After a lifetime of shrinks, i found that i was autistic at 50. I never studied anything at school, just got the highest marks, would never apply for employment, but always busy. The problem may be with the non-autistic people.
For me it’s similar to the feeling of being humiliated, even though I know the request is reasonable and that the person making the request has no ill intentions
I definitely understand that!
Same. The only problem is I have a hard time saying no, so when someone does not take the hint that I really don't want it when I say I do, and they do it anyways, I end up getting overwhelmed, and lash out at them, and tell them not to touch me/tell me what to do/ect.
I feel this ❤@@lemonboy31708
I am too agreeable , and dislike confrontation. I try to set boundaries in a fawny /smiley way.. And when it doesn't work, I eventually switch into saying it in a very angry and cold manner. It's really difficult to find the middle way.
Saying it feels “offensive” is very accurate.
Such a hard emotion to deal with- and so unsolicited. I don’t WANT to automatically hate the idea of doing anything someone tells me to do, I fight against it like crazy, but it’s impossible to win.
For me it feels like having my autonomy taken away when people expect me to do things for no good reason.
Just wanted to write this. Autonomy is a biiiig thing for me. With everyday Tasks I try to learn how to Talk to myself in a more empowering rather than prescribing way and it makes suuuuch a difference.
@@chronischgeheilt I think I understand what you mean, but could you please give an example? I'm thinking along the lines of, "I can accomplish this task", vs. "I need to accomplish this task". I have been told that they'd like to explore a PDA diagnosis for my youngest child, and I just want to understand it better. How do I, as their mother, help them survive and thrive in this world?
@@AuDHD_Mom i have to preface I am not entirely sure whether my issues with this are PDA or something else. But as for examples, yes, yours was 👍🏼
I try to Tell myself Things Like "I am self determined." "It is my will to do these things for a specific reason." "It brings me Joy to be able to do things." These are phrases that click with me but I guess what makes one feel empowered could be highly individual too - we don't wanna be toxic positive or gaslighting... Negative example, unfortunately still very Common for me: "I must do this." "Do this!"
@@chronischgeheilt thank you so much for responding!!
@@AuDHD_Mom you're Welcome :) the PDA Society has Lots of information, in Case you haven't Heard of them yet.
Gosh Toren, I’m a 22 year old with ptsd autism adhd and more. You have no idea how refreshing your content can be for me. Thank you! Keep it up!
For me, it can vary between feeling very panicked or backed into a corner, or 'offended' in a way where it's like someone is threatening my autonomy. But it is also kind of paralyzing, and I am definitely aware of it and how it's affecting the people around me. I also feel very immature while I'm in that state, but it really is difficult to control. It feels like it's controlling me. I always feel so pathetic and upset with myself when it happens. Even my current therapist, whom I like, compared the behavior to a tantrum... It felt so invalidating, so thank you for talking about your experience with it as well. It helps to know I'm not just a broken loser and that I'm not alone in this.
You're not a broken loser :>!! I get that it's probably veery annoying to feel like you're not in control of yourself, but your natural response isn't pathetic, or something you should blame yourself for. You had very valid needs that weren't met, and that's frustrating for anybody
Your feelings are valid!!!!! Personally, I would seek a new therapist because that comment was uncalled for. 😔
Good luck to you!
Me too!
Wow, so you're not only dealing with the episode, you have on top of it thinking about how it affects the people around you. That is a lot on your shoulders! Much love ❤️ speaking as the primary caregiver of our granddaughter we are raising, all I am thinking about is what SHE is going through. I hope the people around you feel the same way as I do, only love and care about your well being so it can hopefully take at least some of that pressure you feel about worrying about them ❤❤❤
This video and learning more about PDA has helped me so much in understanding myself.
For those in the comments confused about the acronym - PDA stands for either Pathological Demand Avoidance, or Persistent Drive for Autonomy (which is the more ND affirming term). It’s a way many autistic people’s nervous systems respond when demands are placed on them. The body interprets demands (orders, instructions, direct questions, chores/actions that need doing etc) as threats, and triggers flight/fight/freeze/fawn responses. Usually making it impossible or extremely difficult to do the thing, even if it’s something easy and or that the person wants to do. The sensation is really hard to describe.
Best comment!
Great explanation of the sensation. If I was gonna do something then someone says to do it, I won’t do it. It’s bad! 😅
OFFENSIVE. This is actually EXACTLY how to explain it. 🙌🏻🙌🏻👏🏻👏🏻
For me, I’ve discovered that it’s purely about avoiding the fear. I wouldn’t have been able to articulate that until recently, but that’s what it is. There are many uncertainties that come up with any task and ALSO opportunity cost which also causes anxiety. When I push through and try to do the thing and pay attention to what I feel, I notice I get anxious about the thought of not being able to do the actual thing I want to do at the moment, I get anxious about the idea of being forced to do things I don’t want to do forever, I get anxious about the energy it’s going to take that I won’t have for other things that might come up, and of course I get anxious about the pressures of the task itself - will I mess up, will I find out I am incapable of doing the thing, will I find out it’s going to take way longer than I thought, will it consume all my resources. So literally, it’s all just variations of anxiety, but if you avoid it effectively enough, it doesn’t feel at all like anxiety, just aversion
That's amazing I remember having PDA as a teenager and young adult but I haven't experienced it in a while. My anxiety has also lessened over the years. You may be spot on
“It’s just not worth my time” *sigh* …. I sooooo get that ❤.
What helps me is when people ask nicely, not just demanding or say stuff like "Go do this." Or "Go do that." But saying things like "Do you mind doing this?" Or "Can you please do that?"
Right! It shows respect and appreciation for the person that they're asking to do the task.
Nah it will make things worse because its more difficult to say no for me 😅
@@57kittens also very helpful when people say "will you ___ WITH me please?" Then it doesn't feel like being made a spectacle of, they are doing everything they ask of you also
But not "the trash needs to be take out"
The correct response to "the trash needs to be taken out" is
"Sure looks that way" lol
If you want me to empty it, say so. Tell me why you can't do it yourself and I'll decide whether to add it to my list, where I do not currently see "take out trash" and cross it from your list like I did last week. Again.
We are a home full of PDA but we have built a way that works for us right now😂
Makes all the difference
I think for the last part a lot more people can relate than you imagine. I believe most people experienced this with chores. When you have a thought of oh these things need to be done, let me do it. But as you go to do it someone says to you to do them. A lot of people feel anger and resentment as a result. Maybe hurt pride too. This generally leads to the person that was about to do the task to not want to do it.
Personally for me its usually a: "well now I cant do it because I was about to do it but because you asked now you'll think I only did it because you asked and that's not the case at all so to prove that wrong we're going to ignore it. 😤"
In a breathless tangent just like that.
Thank you for these shorts. I have a 16 year old son that has many similar traits to you Toren, and this is helping me understand him so much better. I really appreciate your willingness to explain these things so I can understand him better.
Love his personality and how well informed he is
Everyone has their own likes and preferences....to do mindless tasks to please someone else, when the task are of no interest, and bring no pleasure, seems like a waste of time, and effort. You are helping to forge a better key to unlock the creativity, and find some solutions. ❤ Thank you both.
He's wise beyond his years. ♥️
I unschool my son. Its been a blessing! I wish my parents had at least homeschooled me. I did absolutely awful in school.
I know EXACTLY what you mean Toren. It actually is making my grades suffer a lot. When people ask me to do something, it makes me feel offended for some reason. When im assigned classwork that isnt engaging enough or is just something to do only because the teacher told us to, its extremely hard for me to do it. Im Diagnosed with ADHD and I might have autism too, and honestly this isnt something people know a lot about. Thank you for talking about it ❤❤❤
I'm 28 and autistic and recently realized I have PDA and it was like my whole life suddenly made sense. Like wholy cow there's a reason I'm this way I'm not just broken.
I usually feel super defensive and annoyed when someone asks me to do something and then it's like my brain puts up a wall between me and the task and if I try to do it I just get more frustrated for no apparent reason.
You are so well versed for having autism. I have a child with autism, but they do not say much at all, but are very intelligent. Am showing them your content. Thank you ❤
*And they are not "non binary." I say they & them to protect their identity, & are underage.*
Good grief so cute! "they didn't really have anything worth my time"😂❤ that's too true!!
I’ve seen a few of your videos now and I am now going to get my daughter into a dr for an evaluation for the autism spectrum. She is now 11 years old and I had no idea about autism until these past few years. I always assumed she was just being rudely with everyone but now looking back and seeing other folks stories and them talking about things I now know that the speech delayed development and still ongoing with this is just apart of the autism spectrum. Thank you for sharing your own personal experiences it has helped me to be able to understand a little better and now I can look into this more and learn myself how to better help my daughter and in the process help our entire family as a unit grow more happily with understanding. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼😊🥰🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Thank you for explaining pathological demand avoidance to the best of your ability!
so many different meanings for the acronym! thought yall meant public displays of affection, but that PDA makes more sense in this case
Pathological Demand Avoidance can be part of Autism
I’m confused. What did pda mean in this video?
@@bettyboop3353 Pathological demand avoidance
@@Nashleyismthank you for explaining! I came to the comments looking for this information
Thank you! I could not figure out what PDA meant if not public displays of affection lol
I’m impressed that you are able to reflect on these questions Mama Wolf asks you. You’re more self-aware than a lot of guys your age. Even so, it can be very difficult to explain some feelings. There are some people in my family who automatically say “No” to anything that is suggested to them, or asked of them. Sometimes, I just have to wait a while and bring it up again later, after they’ve had time to think about it.
*me after discovering PDA is not 'public display of affection'*: hmm, i wonder what that is...
*me 0.1 seconds after Googling it: THATS WHAT THAT FEELING IS?!
For me it's like a loss of control and powerlessness, being treated non-human, disrespected, controlled. It's an instant desire to do anything but what someone tells me to do. And no one stops doing it no matter if you explain to them to stop treating you like you're 10. No one cares that it make you less likely to do something. They just continue making things worse.
Edit: physically, it's like bugs crawling in my veins.
Oh Toren my brother from another mother. I've never even met you and I relate more to you than just about anyone else I've ever met. I feel like my autism, ADHD, and PDA are constantly clashing. I do struggle with eating, hygiene and self-care, however I think I generally respond to reasonable 'demands' fairly well. Life is a long series of demands. I mostly respond badly when the demand is delivered badly, or the demand itself is unreasonable. An example: at a new doctor's office I will write my name address and other information one time, and sign where required. If you would like that information copied onto multiple other forms, that is up to you and your staff. My partner and I both love your videos. You're a good man Charlie Brown. 😏
This helps me understand my son so much better! Thank you!!! ❤❤❤
Du bist perfekt, so wie du bist! Wir haben alle unsere Probleme mit Gefühlen und Erwartungen anderer. Ich finde es toll, dass du das so offen aussprichst!
❤this kid has gone thru a lot he is amazing even during a recent meltdown his first thought was to educate his followers the footage is raw and gut wrenching to watch you can tell it’s from the heart❤️
Thank you!❤ This means a lot to me.❤
My son can't talk or express himself. You're helping us so much 🩷🩷🩷
I can relate to this!
Much support for the gentle ones who suffer. ❤❤❤
This is so interesting to hear!
My son is 48 now. When he was diagnosed with ADHD when he was in second grade there was very little known about the disorder. They tried Ritalin because that’s all there was at the time. He refused to take it after a few times because he said he didn’t like the way it made him feel. The school wanted to put him in special education classes. We took him to a psychiatrist because they thought it was a mental illness. Of course now we know better and I feel bad about all the trauma we probably inflicted on him unintentionally due to ignorance. We have come a long way.
At least you tried! You were defeated due to overall lack of knowledge, but you were trying to advocate for him! Hopefully he understands that. ❤
I explain it as not allowing someone to make you a "trick pony" - instant anger and pride and defenses. I refused a lot as a kid, then learned to logic my way out of it - because I know that isn't what is actually happening. But it's my son's biggest struggle now.
I didn’t read the yellow text and thought this was about a very different type of PDA lol
Don't worry man a lot of people (including me) go through the same exact thing, so you're not alone, i bid you farewell.
i see this in both a coworker friend as well as myself...i really can't say where it comes from or what emotion to associate with it. often for me, it feels like, i'll do that thing if it becomes a logical step in my process but i won't if it doesn't seem to have a place. i've developed the maturity, sheer willpower, or plain desperation to overcome it at work where it really isn't helpful (maybe this is a form of masking?) but honestly the feeling of it inside me never goes away. i suppose it's one of the negative aspects of being autistic that many of us have to cope with and try to prevent from doing damage to our lives and relationships. i have no real technique to overcome it, and at home i just allow it to express itself however it does.
As an adhd'er something along those lines has affected me too, though I think to a lesser degree. Requests will often feel like insults or criticisms. It'll feel less like - hey, could you do this thing - and more like - why haven't you already done the thing? Bonus points if it was a reminder or if it was something I was already gearing up toward doing...
Sometimes it feels like all of a sudden I’m in a burning building that I’m unfamiliar with. It feels threatening and then I respond with fawning like a survival response. I’ll just do whatever I’m told. I’ve been doing my best to break myself of that habit.
i dealt with this too. its like my mind would shut off. my parents thought I was doing it on purpose cause I was lazy. I didn't even know why I didn't do my homework. my dad had to drag me to school to get my homework. many teachers were so rude to me because of this. i always did enough to barley pass my year. i never read a single book, I wouldn't mind at all if people were reading to me, but if you asked me to read, I wouldn't do it. you could force me to sit there with a book and threatened to give me a quiz on what i read and I would just day dream instead.
For me, it feels almost like someone is shoving you around so *of course* I’m going to push back
Diagnosed autistic at 31 3 years ago but just starting to realize I have PDA. Not as strongly, I think, as many people do, but it's definitely there. Happens a lot with roommates 😭
Let's hear it❤
Thanks. I relate.
These talks with your mom remind me so much of me talking with my son.
This!
Never knew what it was called but I had that persistent feeling of “no!” when someone asked me to do something or they commented on what I was already doing.
Still strongly affects me now
Absolutely, I have always had this!
It makes me feel like I’m backed into a corner, like I don’t have a choice. I know neurotypicals probably think I’m being a brat but it’s a very annoying emotion to deal with. I usually avoid doing certain things if it’s sounds passive aggressive like “go do this now”. Where is a please in that sentence? And I’m more likely to do something if it’s said in a more polite and non aggressive manner where I have the option of when I do it. Idk it’s hard to describe 😅
😮Ohhhwwww! This is so NEW to me! I didn't know that there's a name for it!😮 It.Is.Exactly.What.I.Experience.And.What.I.Do.Constantly.
❤
well, i just learned a new meaning for pda. i literally only knew the other version. i need to read more into this, maybe explains some of my strong need for control or that could be the ptsd or gad at play. i fluctuate between hating being told what to do and needing/wanting people to tell me what to do (bc otherwise it won't occur to me). I am not sure why, maybe its the task, tone of voice, or their behavior that makes the difference for me.
For me its like every fiber of my being is screaming "Noooooo"....
I can sometimes get around my own PDA (particularly in the workplace) by verbally saying no but going through with the request anyway. But other times (more at home in a “safe environment”) I will allow my PDA to take the reins for a little longer until I can voluntarily choose to do the task asked of me.
I am autistic and I've always queried the belief that PDA is a response to feeling anxious. I genuinely think it's a response to not wanting to be controlled and not believing that it's respectful or right for people to control you! Adults don't like being controlled or ordered around so why is it ok to do it to children? I do, however, remember having times where I would completely freeze and be unable to talk or barely communicate. This, though, was something completely different, and not a constant, daily thing! With me it was linked to PTSD ❤
My son went through similar. I'm glad he grew out of it. It was exhausting, as a parent.
This content is really helpful❤ thanks
It's ironic that we're considered to be strict binary (either/or, black/white) thinkers when we're conditioned for years in school to expect that there is only ever One Right Answer to any question.
Personally I think PDA is less about avoidance than it is about protesting in defiance of arbitrary authority, aka PDAA. Any time anyone has ever given me an ultimatum I automatically call their bluff: I refuse to have those kinds of terms imposed on me because I know it's a paradox, not an honest choice.
Yesss, this so much!
for me it feels like...when someone tells me what to do, I suddenly have this very strong feeling of "now i don't want to/can't do it anymore". I do think you got really close with the "offensive", it's as if I would need to protect my independence/autonomy, the right to choose when things happen and how they happen.
It's as if someone telling me to do something I get sort of angry? It also happens when someone tells me NOT to do something or that I "can't" do something, which again is like someone is trying to take away my autonomy....
and it's difficult to deal with, cause sometimes the feelings that come with it, might make me lash out...and often enough I just can't do the thing I originally wanted to do then and that's incredibly frustrating >.< cause I still want it to be done...or know that it needs to be done, but when someone tells me to do it, it's like a switch is being flipped in my brain.
And then I also learned at some point that i can even trigger it myself...when trying to make "demands" or requests towards myself...which I can't really avoid.
What does help, is formulating things more like questions...like a suggestion without demand...it doesn't always help but when I say "could i do this right now?" it's very different from "i have to do this now"
@@Eryniell That comparison with being told that we 'can't' do something is so on point!
And same for me, it's easier to do things when I leave the space for myself to say no
Now I know what it is. I have it. And I realised my son also does have it. He hates doing things because he "has to". So I do my best to let him be and do things when he hinself feels right to do. And at least give him a choice. So he can choose when he will for example tidy up or for how long or what part of the room.... all the tricks I do to myself to force the activities I hate doing because they are "chores". I feel supressed and when I must do something! Frr me it feels similar to rejection (I can't bear rejection, it brings real physical pain)
I describe it as feeling frozen to the spot and the more the demands, the more anxious and more frozen I become. Eventually it becomes distasteful and ridiculous and I don't want to do it. So I do something else that I do like. ND but not autistic.
U should check if you’re autistic if u can. But if your not and have pda that’s kinda interesting I haven’t heard of anyone non autistic with it
@@Aceofspades2006 I don't believe I am autistic as although I have most of the same symptoms, my brain does not work in the same way as autism. I think of it as typical people having quite a narrow bandwidth whereas mine is very wide. One of my "special " interests has been, from the age of 7, human behaviour and I have read about and studied it ever since. My aspie friend and my aspie son think of themselves as aliens but I think of myself as mutant.
Being tested is something I would dislike intensely and it is apparently expensive. Suppressing my demand avoidance at work was exhausting and stressful, bringing on panic attacks and shut downs. Now I live on benefits. I am happy as I am and still looking for a perfect job.
I feel you ❤
Hello, I'vee been diagnosed with Autism Specteum Disorder at age 54. PDA is definitely part of it for me. It mostly kicks in when simeone tells/asks me to do something I am already aware of having to do, would have done it, but focusing my attention on it "out of turn" ruins it for me. Another case it kicks in, is when I'm asked "Don't you want to...(whatever)" or "I want you to...(whatever)
Just ask nicely, "Willem, please...(whatever within reason) then most of the time I'll do that right away, or as soon as I complete the task interrupted by the request.
I’m not sure I have this completely, but I do find requests like patronizing? sometimes. I think I have so much anxiety about managing my ADHD that when someone is telling me to do something it feels like they think I’m not capable of remembering or doing it on my own.
when i was 16, i drove a lil small pickup truck to school, and my bookbag would get thrown in the bed of that truck every day after school, and i wouldn't see it again till i parked the next morning in the school parking lot lol.. which had an extra surprise of occasionally being rained on overnight x.x
What usually helps me to get around this feeling is saying out loud, "I want to do this", or something similar. This also helps neurotypicals that are present to understand that I'm trying my best.
It also helps to describe the moment with words, internally or loud doesn't matter. Remember that PDA is a stress reaction of your nervous system, so verbally/internally clarifying for yourself what the situation is and that you are not in danger can help a lot.
Also I tell people around me to not use words like "must", "have to", "need to" when asking me for something, as those are trigger words. On high sensory days this feeling usually gets worse.
I can still remember when I was little I was undiagnosed and I would yell at my mom when she triggered my PDA, thankfully she didn't punish me, but rather changed her vocab to comfort me. PDA was the main reason for my meltdowns, luckily I know more now and know how to comfort myself when somebody triggers me, I haven't had a meltdown in years.
Yes threatened and offended are the ways that I would mostly describe it. If it's something I was already doing or planning on doing especially I feel almost like I've been attacked when someone tells me to do the thing I was literally about to do. I get so angry even if I know It's the reasonable or correct thing to do. 😵💫
Amen bro about nothing worth your time ❤ PDA is weird as shit, but also very easy to see in one's self 😅
For me I'd describe it as it feels impossible to do now, or I've got to start gearing up for it from the start again. I tell people "if you are struggling to go to sleep, and someone comes along and tells you that you really HAVE to go to sleep, that you have to get up in 6 hours, it makes it less likely or impossible for you to go to sleep." Like you have to start the process of relaxing all over from the start. And chances are now lower that you can. Telling you you have to go to sleep makes it so you can't go to sleep. Not that you decide not to out of defiance. You just CAN'T now.
As a special educator I had to quickly learn the difference between avoidance behaviors and demand refusal. My twin sister demonstrates this to some extent. If asked to do something academic which she knows perfectly well to do, she will not be convinced or persuaded to do it unless it drives her energy and interests.
“Busy work” is something I am against. I like to give my students choice. If the student chooses to do nothing but stare at a wall for
minutes straight, that is still data. Other students are more willing to engage in unfavorable activities (reading, writing, math, etc) if the modality for the output changes and / or there is a set time limit. For every 30 minutes of work, there is a break. There are numerous ways to modify curriculum that respect how individual brains navigate the world we both live in.
when people ask me to do things, my gut reaction is "oh my god how am i going to alter my current mindset to allow me to fit this task in after i recover from the interruption" and it feels like it's too much to process and I get irritated because "well now here's this person i wasn't bothering who came to stop what i was doing without any consideration to how much energy this takes and they dont even give a damn unless i'm performing for them" kind of thoughts..
Wow i never knew this had to do with my autism! I always felt so akward and wrong when people asked me to do things almost like a fommand even as a kid when it was simple tasks. I just felt talked down to, like they were talking to a baby (even when i was a kid at the time haha)
My family often thought I was selfish for balking at being asked to do things. I do what needs to be done when people aren’t watching and when I choose to do it. Unfortunately this also occurs in relationships. If it feels like someone is demanding my time and attention, I feel anxious, resentful and repelled by that person.
My grandson, Jonah, has PDA, and I wish he had a guy friend like you to talk to. He has NO FRIENDS. 🙁😔
for me it kinda feels like other people's demands closing in on me, like they won't respect the Way or Order i want to do things in. even if they will. especially when i had full intent of doing the thing at some other time, it feels like they don't Trust me to handle my responsibilities like an adult (context: I am an adult now but that feeling of not trusting me has always been frustrating), and that i need to not do the thing to demonstrate to them that This Won't Work
I feel soo offended sometimes when I find a note reminding myself to do something I'm already doing
To me it feels exactly like "well, guess I can't do it now, someone has perceived my intent"
It's like I want to do the thing at the time of my own personal choice *TO* my own personal satisfaction *FOR* my own edification, not because someone told me to do it
When "they" take away that little bubble of dopamine I've been waiting for, I want nothing. Forever.
Into the Void!
When your body is overwhelmed, like sensitive bodies are, your nervous system starts defending itself even without your consent if it feels like you are not able to protect yourself or escape the situation any other way. Because sensory overwhelm is so body based, with us not even recognising it half the time because it doesn't fit how we're taught we should be feeling, the body is what responds for us. The entirety of the nervous system starts seeing any disturbance as a potential threat because it's so threat oriented. It's like an overactive immune system that has developed allergies and autoimmunity, it's started saying "no" indescrminantly. So when a request is made the feeling of no already exists in every nerve throughout your body, and your limbic hindbrain takes over to force you to exhibit that socially. It's a fight response. Just like how the immune system can get more and more sensitive if it's exposed to certain toxins or viruses repeatedly, sensory sensitivity, emotional sensitivity from not having enough time and space to empty the bucket again, all these things reach a critical stage and that's when your body forces you to say no to everything. It's because so much of your mental energy is already going towards processing the overwhelm that any additional effort, in the form of an intentional activity you didn't have intrinsic motivation for, would tax your brain beyond an already critical capacity.
It feels offensive because particularly as children, autisitic people believe everyone thinks and feels what they do. From that perspective, being told to do something with no regard to whether it was beneficial to you does feel offensive. Moralising things is also a strategy the brain uses to make us feel validated when we may not.
I probably had pda as a child but I was a girl. It went away when I became more people motivated and humans became more the special interest, because pleasing others became an intrinsic motivation essentially inverting PDA without healing any causative factors.
I did heal properly from this eventually through lots of slow work. I also developed communication and worked through fear of others reactivity/rejection enough that I felt confident (aka validated) in knowing and communicating any boundary that felt like it arose for me, at any time, and had the space to work the other person through difficult emotions my boundaries might bring up for them. So I didn't feel threatened by saying yes to things anymore, or by saying no, which meant my nervous system also didn't feel threatened. Self validation in the form of going through hypothetical conversations in your head and working through emotional reactions you feel, until those situations no longer make you feel potentially invalid in real life because you know how you feel, was the key step.
Then recently I suffered a great deal of social trauma, autisitic stigma and burnout. I developed cptsd. I noticed I was developing PDA, I'd already begun reading about it before this stuff happened since I was working with neurodivergent kids. Prior to this I had also been practising body focused meditations for a decade, so my interception was significantly more pronounced than the average person. I could tell what state my nervous system was in easily, all the time. I could notice where involuntary thoughts were coming from. And I knew the PDA was coming from my fight response getting stronger and stronger. I'm really sad about this.
I would love to talk to you more about this topic. I don't get notifications around RUclips comments but my insta handle is cat.blayk
It's a big reason, I feel, why they say most autistic people don't adhere to hierarchies. There's no reason why any one person has any sort of power over another. Sure, if someone has more experience with something, they can certainly make informed suggestions. But if they do it in a way that feels condescending, or that I should do it without any question is unacceptable. They can also inform me. I want to have a solidly informed reason why I am being asked to do something. It's like... give a guy a fish, he eats for the day. Teach the man to fish, he eats for his whole life. I don't want someone to do my thinking for me. Give me the information, the tools to understand the how and why of the task, and then yes, I will help. It is the law of existence: free will must not be infringed upon. But a person has a duty to inform himself, to not allow themselves to have their free will infringed upon by letting themselves be mindlessly controlled. At least thats how I feel about it.
I have actually found myself getting irrationally angry and disregulated in these moments. I also find that I am my most sarcastic and defensive self at these times. And I start taking the request as a personal attack. It has taken many years to recognize it for what it is. I grew up being called stubborn, and that's all I had to go off of for most of my life. Learning about pathalogical demand avoidance has started to help me compartmentalize my feelings a lot.
Does anyone else do this with their own self? Like when I think to myself “I have to” or “I need to” or “ I really should” do xyz..
but I can’t seem to force myself. It’s not lazy, it’s more than just, I don’t want to. I can’t explain it. I guess I just can’t be forced? Even by my own self and even if I know I need to do the thing. Even if I know it will be good when it’s done. I do not know how to explain this. Anyone else?
I get this exactly!! I’ve learnt to always phrase my to do lists and self talk as “I want to” or “I’m going to” such as “I’m going to vacuum today” or “I want to clean that” or a more general “that wants cleaning” or “that goes in the cupboard”. As soon as there’s any implication that xyz NEEDS to be done, something in my body just cannot let me do it.
Yes, definitely! I could see it clearly when I started adding fun things into my to-do list (to calm my anxiety about forgetting them). They start to feel like a chore, something I 'have to' do. Same with selfcare, it feels like I should do it (because it's good for me) and it blocks me. But I also have problems with prioritising and getting overwhelmed when I have too much to do. And I am not sure how much of it is a neurodivergent thing, how much is trauma related
@@thePsycoGeniusHybridYes, it helps me too! But then if I don't have anything I need to do it can be hard to start anything
@@thePsycoGeniusHybridI will give that a try. Sounds helpful. Thank you!
I fell this way anytime someone especially male, ask me "what you doin? whatchu up to?" Or questions why i do anything, lol
I thrived with reading and writing. It was math, science, and history (in that order) classes that I hated. I was expected to do my school math work their way...and since their way made no sense to me, I failed math a lot. Only took pre-algebra in HS and had to take it 4 years...why? Cuz I couldn't get the hang of it. I never did pass that class.
I was class of 96 and 99. In 98 I took my GED test. Signed up the last day and learned that I solve math problems illogically. Though now I forget what that means.
I know I can do trig, but I honestly don't understand it. Scored in the top 2% in the US. Got GED diploma in Jan of 99.
As for why I didn't graduate with my class -
I never went through puberty
I was being bullied every single day
Phys Ed was a state requirement for graduation in 96. I refused to take that class
Got out of HS with 48 out of 40 required credits, but since I refused to take phys ed....
Youngsters are lucky to get diagnosed so quickly. I grew up in a farming community. Small school, small town, small minds. Best I ever got diagnosed with back in the 80s was: depressed, anti-social, and lack of self esteem. Well gee, I wonder why. Oh wait, that's right - I was being bullied every single day. **rolls eyes**
I was diagnosed right after my 42nd bday, nearly 5 years ago with autism
I'm still trying to come to terms with it...
Sure does explain a lot though!
My mom was like, “your aunt Mary has her boys sit down and finish their homework as soon as they get home from school, or they can’t go to sports practice, maybe we should do something like that.” And offended is absolutely the right word. The concept just sounded utterly RIDICULOUS, and there was no working with me. I will do my homework before it’s due, but do NOT tell me when to do it.
Yes. Also I panic a lot, like full panic. I jumped out of car ones (don’t worry they kinda stopped) cus they were not listening and telling me to stay, I was panicking they wouldn’t fuccing listen. I was shaking for like an hour or smt I also dissociated so idk.
But the thing is I know it’s “dramatic” but I can’t just do nothing cus then I dissociate and get more depressed and scared and then it will become a loop of anxiety and depression, then I can become manic.
I really hope in future and now they will do more research cus I can’t explain to people why I can’t do smt. People scream at me, tell me I’m dramatic, selfish, brat and much more but I just can’t. I freeze or run away.
I sometimes wonder if I have this... I have trouble with some things more than others... Like being told to do things I don't want to do really irks me. And I sometimes struggle completing things that don't have a purpose or isn't something I need.
Dear Toren, after 25 years, I think I found out why my autistic son hated school and is never willing to learn anything, and even if he did learn his school lessons, he hated himself for doing so. I think I got it now. I will try to read up on PDA to find out if there is a strategy to cope with it. Do you and your mom have any suggestions? Maybe you can make a video on it. I am still learning after quarter of a century… ❤️🇳🇱
I'd describe it as similar to a sudden case of fight-flight-freeze. It feels like on an instinctual/subconscious level something is wrong, and I need to immediately do something about it cos I'm in danger (I'm not). 😅
I THINK I don't have this, it's just the tone someone is telling me to do something.
If I just wanted to do something and then I am told to in a way "why didn't You" (as a teenager) I immediatliy couldn't do any more.
And as an adult if someone just has power but I know better and he acts like an idiot and tells me to do something that just doesn't make sense...nope.
But if a kind person I respect for what she is doing/knowing tells me zo do something I like to to do and do my very best.
For me it kinda makes the thing that I'm asked to do feel disgusting. And that feeling of disgust averts me from doing that thing.
It is so hard to describe, because it's not really rational. It's like you have this part of your brain that reacts strongly in an irrational way but it doesn't feel irrational at all in that moment. And then when you go back to think about what happened later, your rational mind is in control so you can now see the irrational response for what it is. But you really only get that clarity after the fact.
It feels like hitting a brick wall. It's hard for me to interact
😢 i love the rephrased "Persistent drive for autonomy" it de-villainizes PDA. The word "pathological" makes me feel evil. Like im doing this to make other's life harder.
I associate it more with ADHD. It’s a state where I get annoyed because I don’t feel I have a great deal of time to even do the things I want, let alone whatever request is coming from whomever. It’s like get that request out of my face! Ain’t nobody got time for that. 😂. But yeah.. it’s like putting your foot down and securing it with cement, glue, etc. you most likely aren’t going to change my mind.
How can we convey an idea, or a step toward the completion of a task (like... let's say... preparing a horse for horseback riding...)?
How can we bring someone dealing with PDA to do such task?
I thought pda was physical displays of affection….
Well I’m learning
It looks like most people got it, but if anyone is confused by the title, it stands for pathological demand avoidance, which is a manifestation of autism that some people on the spectrum experience.
So, im 60. After a lifetime of shrinks, i found that i was autistic at 50. I never studied anything at school, just got the highest marks, would never apply for employment, but always busy. The problem may be with the non-autistic people.
Offensive- that’s the perfect word to describe it! Like how dare someone encroach upon my freedom to do what I want with my time.
It can feel like the person is already disappointed with you, and if they're already disappointed then what is the point of doing it 🤷🏻♀️
Dang, never knew anybody who had so many pathological/psychological labels attached to him. Aren't we all disagreeable and uncooperative at times?