The Train Route That Confuses Ticket Apps
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 14 сен 2023
- When you try to use a ticket app to buy a ticket from anywhere on the Borderlands Line to the Hope Valley Line, they seem to get somewhat confused and give you very bizarre routes.. Let's do a more logical version of one of them!
=============================================================
Thank you to my Patrons and Channel Members!
Alexander Kinney, A Nerd Travels, Angel Wedge, Anthony Clark, Antigod, AutoUnder, Charles, CM Trains, Coastway Will, Daniel Geographic, David Bainbridge, David Collison, David Curtis, David Goodrum, Dean Sharpe, DodoGTA, Dylan Davies, Elliot Crofts, Emily Jules, Evan Smith, FoxyButNew, GOLDjack, Gordon Webb, Hugh Hillier, Ian B, JackAllStations, Jacob Edwin House, Jake Short, Jan Hnilička, JenOnTheMove, Joe On The Trains, Joe Verity, Jon, Jon Alwyn-Jones, Jordan Boag, Kai Kiefer, Karl Florczak, KD, Lewis Leigh, Lil Cataracts, LSebster2005, Manic, Marcie Z, Mars, Max, Metrowake11, Mike Jones, MrOscar323, Natt, Oliver Rosik, Paul Eade, Paul Newton, Peter Kates, Polkajuice, Quantum Pulsar, Raphaël, Rb1414, Rheilffordd, Robbie Hayhurst, RobertfromCologne, Rob K Carter Rudwick, SarahWithTheTrains, ServerToaster, SimOnTrains, South Coast Dave, Stuart S, Sure Not, TheSpaceGuy, Thomas Roell, Thornaby 37, Tom Lake, TommyG, VexSG, William Mankelow, Winfel
You can become a Patron here! / nickbadley
=============================================================
Follow on Twitter: @NickBadley
Subscribe!: @NickBadley 
Авто/Мото
It's not that it confuses the journey planners, its more so that the journey from Penyffordd to Edale via Shotton/Manchester Piccadilly isn't a valid route, so it shows you the only trains running that *do* offer the valid route, which is via Wrexham and Chester instead.
It's not valid, ultimately because you're going further than you need to, (up to Shotton) but there's only 2 services in a day that allow the correct transfers at the right stations. TfW are the flow owners for this fare, so might be worth reaching out to them and getting clarification because it's always a pretty interesting topic
I see. This ‘valid route’ system is outdated, broken, and makes very little sense to regular travellers, let alone most enthusiasts like Nick… you literally have to find and read this microsoft excel document with tens of thousands of lines to be able to find what the valid routes are for your journey. I wish I was joking but im not. The infrastructure on our railway is excellent and so improved compared what it was 5-10 years ago, but the backend systems are as broken as ever.
@@Nooticus Don't be silly, they're not going to provide you with an Excel document with tens of thousands of lines...the Yellow Pages (what you refer to) is a 2,270-page long PDF document with 39 lines of routeings on each page! That makes, to my count... 88,530 lines. Ouch.
@@wintrwunderland indeed!! it was definitely about that many...
@@wintrwunderland What's really going to make the mind boggle is that in 1996, when the Routeing Guide first launched, there were 140 yellow pages with 72 lines of text on each, which is just 10,080 lines in total.
There are now 38 pages of 'easements', which are best read by computers, in comparison to the original 8 pages, set out by operator and including address and phone numbers for each 'pricing manager'.
The problem is not that the system is outdated, it is that it has become too complicated because of greed.
It is valid on JG+HO (changing between Routeing Maps at Stockport), and I cannot see an 'Easement' to forbid it.
The Journey Planners really are only as good as their programming. The current Routeing Guide is littered with 'Easements' that are there purely to help the Journey Planners work out valid journeys.
For those of us not familiar with the area, it would’ve helped showing some kind of map at the beginning of the video.
Yes. I have not clue what and where he was talking about, except for it probably being somewhere in the UK.
Google maps?
Nah, openstreetmap is where it's at.
Agreed! A nice map and route would be really helpful for such videos!
The TPE train getting cancelled twice and then the following train also being cancelled is the most TPE thing I've ever seen
Godspeed TPE, never change lol
TPE, never express and frequently not trans. Should be Cis Pennine Sluggish.
(This is in the Latin sense, nothing to do with sex and gender, just to be clear)
They must have looked at Southern and thought that's the way to run a train service 😂
Tricking the app into giving you the journey you want
is an art form in its own right
Trainsplit will do it; other ones don't come close
Merseyrail offers a great quirk for pricing. Chester to Blackpool is £37.00 return or thereabouts. Hooton to Blackpool is £25.00 and has a permitted route through (with a change of service in) Chester.
Any split-ticket supporting journey planner actually does show this journey as they use there own routing algorithms rather than using the National Rail Enquiries one.
Broooo no way just I found this video lol
I put it in Google Maps and it recommended this journey - guess that's why!
their*
No different algorithm is needed; it's simply down to the TOCs being obsessed with not offering combinations of tickets. Except Chiltern do, but not as well as Trainsplit
I had a similar problem when trying to travel the Brigg line, National Rail wouldn't sell an 'any permitted route' ticket Nottingham-Barnetby, I'm guessing because of the limited service. Like you I'm finding I'm visiting a split level station much more than usual recently, in my case it's Tamworth. Keep up showing us the obscure journeys.
On National Rail enquiries the greenford line is not shown for West Ealing to Greenford, even though the branch is shorter and more frequent
Very little makes sense with the Greenford line, such as why GWR has hung on to it and not tried to pass it off to TfL as an Overground line.
@@metropod I bet noone wants the line, noone needs the line. It still open because it's London + it's way beyond beeching now
(Actually I bet it doesn't lose that much money right?)
Did you check if the ticket office staff knew the straightforward journey? Apps are supposed to replace them, but the ticket prices from the ticket office are often cheaper.
Penyffordd station has no ticket office, no ticket machines, and no waiting room. Just a couple of bus shelters, a bike rack, and a car park. And a signalbox.
Penyffordd - my home station! And good job on the pronunciation 🙂
Mine too,
One reason why I would never trust a single app for journey planning, but also check other sources of information such as National Rail Enquiries and Real Time Trains. Some of the results they come up with are totally weird and make no sense
Thought I'd check this out in the South Western railway app and that one does give you journeys via Shotton and Piccadilly and will happily sell you a ticket via that route
6:15 is right as there is the holyhead - birmingham intl service that goes through chester via wrexham
Pontefract Monkhill (or Tanshelf) to Pontefract Baghill would be a good "pointless journey" for the future. Monkhill to Tanshelf would be a bit uneventful of course!
This might interest you: If you try Penyffordd to Edale in the journey planer of Deutsche Bahn (German Railways), it shows the route you took and even more. From the morning to midnight it shows more than 20 different travel times.
common DB Navigator W
@@subway8448 yep
@4:32 HAHAHAHA I am literally ROTFLOL. They got the stations wrong.. they crazy man, they reallll crazy
Journeys from St Budeaux are like that. Like many places the legacy of having two railway companies gave the village two stations. St Budeaux Ferry Road two platforms on Great Western and St Budeaux Victoria Road now a single platform on the old LSWR.
Fares vary from both stations despite being a few metres apart.
Unlike most multistation places that have an all stations ticket St Budeaux missed this luxury!
i live in Eastbourne on the South Coast and to travel across London they always tell you to use the underground which is another expense rather than using overground routes which you can get discounted fares on. I very rarely use the underground as i can go from Eastbourne to St Pancras, Kings Cross and Paddington by overground routes.
I assume the original idea was to do Hope to Hope. if not that would maybe be an interesting video idea
Stoney Middleton to Middleton Stoney appears not to be a rail route as only one has a station, but along the lines of the Liege Bastogne Liege cycle race there could be a Middleton Stoney Stoney Middleton Middleton Stoney cycle race.
wigan wallgate to wigan north western
We provide the journey planner for TrainSplit. As others have commented, via Shotton and Manchester isn't a Permitted Route. Our route diagnostics show:
Through Mapped Route
Checking SHT-CTR-G31-G78-G20-CLY
Off route at Chinley
Not Permitted: Not traceable as mapped route.
That's... weird. Back in the day (like, 25 years ago) I was a Routeing Guide expert, so I picked up the Routeing Guide again. The relevant Routeing Points are Shotton and Chinley, as you said; and the maps are JG+HO, JO+HO and MJ+HO. The really weird part is that HO, which covers the Hope Valley line, does not include Stockport-Manchester. Nevertheless, JG gets you from Shotton via Frodsham, Warrington BQ and Newton-le-Willows to Manchester and on to Stockport if need be.
So I can't figure out how the Routeing Guide prevents this -- is there a data error somewhere?
The Hope Valley stopper doesn't go via Stockport. It goes via Reddish North, and that's the problem. You can either switch from map JG to map HO at Stockport, or at Manchester. But if you switch maps at Manchester, it forces the route to go via Guide Bridge instead.@@alistairbell3935
@@alistairbell3935As you say, Shotton - Chinley is JG+HO, JO+HO, MJ+HO.
You have to switch to the next map at the earliest common point you go through. In this case, you have to switch to HO at Warrington as you have to go via Warrington (only route between the two maps) and that point is on both JG and HO.
This means you're limited to getting to Chinley via Manchester and Guide Bridge as HO doesn't contain Manchester to Stockport.
Finding direct journeys on SailRail from Manchester (preferably Manchester Victoria) to Holyhead for the ferry to Dublin is a real hassle on any app and with any train operator, as is going from Platform 13 at Manchester Piccadilly and changing at Chester is a real pain - many of these trains don’t even call at Deansgate/Castlefield which makes connecting with Metrolink Trams so much easier
Very excited to be doing the Hope Valley Line next weekend.
This situation perfectly sums up the ridiculousness of the rial fare system.
As do plenty of other things. My local station is Marple. A Marple to Shrewsbury return is £47.40 according to the National Rail site. Marple - Man Picc return is £6.70 and Man Picc - Shrewsbury return is £28.80 for a total of £35.50. Quite a difference. Totally baffling.
@@davidjackson2580 Brinnington here. there was a time not so long ago where, anyone wanting a train to Manchester had to get a train to Bredbury (one stop) make like a fully charged superhero to cross the pedestrian bridge to the opposite platform to catch the train to Manchester - because between 4 - 6pm, no trains stopped here for Manchester. even the frequency of trains from Manchester was screwy, with some terminating at Rose Hill and some going to Sheffield - and sometimes, with limited stops, if you were on the wrong train hoping to swap - you had to play it carefully. and the Sheffield train is always packed out and standing room only - both directions (and only 2 carriages... yeah, gotta love rail maths, right? 🤦♀)
if you're disabled - you're screwed.
the winner: stagecoach buses, £5 dayrider.
interesting station worthy of note: Reddish South. one train per week!
Another way to do this is Bidston, Lime Street, EMR to Edale.
Edit: Just put it into Google maps out of curiosity. It's the actual recommended route, and is only 3 hours and 2 minutes.
I used to ride the 230 units when they were on the District Line before being refurbished and converted.
I love how this guy just throws out random train and railroad line facts… I also loved the sheep noises at the end
Brilliant nick! Well done
I had a quick look on National Rail and (if I'd been in Penyffordd, which I wasn't) I could have done it it 2h 36m. But with 5 changes, and for thirty quid without my railcard. But it DID show journeys via Shotton and Picadilly as well.
An interesting anomaly - could this be a new series?
I've had a vaguely similar issue when trying to buy tickets from Gloucester to Evesham, which always includes a change in Worcester, but rather than getting a selection of singles and returns, the only option was to buy the Freedom Severn and Solent rover ticket. Bizarre for a journey I know should only cost around £20ish return
Hi Nick another excellent and enjoyable video and thank you so much for making them.
The SBB Mobile App does show the route via Manchester Piccadilly, probably because you can't by UK Tickets on there.
Funny, this reminds me a bunch of how google maps often generates and recommends some very odd travel plans between locations in New York City because it tries to minimize the amount of walking distance before anything else. I recently was recommended a strange route going way out of the way and taking like 3 transfers which would have resulted in a a 30 minute trip to a local office supply store that I could have gotten to in 15 minutes without any transfers by walking 2 more blocks.
I’m surprised you didn’t do Hope (Clwyd) to Hope (Derbyshire)! 😜
He was beyond Hope
Or the two Shottons - the one in Wales and the one in County Durham - or other places that have identical names!
I did Moreton (Dorset) to Moreton (Merseyside) a few years ago
I've had similar issues here in Germany, where the Public Transit Apps don't consider certain options, because their internal planning logic tries to reduce waiting times and/or increase connection security, making it give comical routes, which send you to the middle of nowhere since that way you spend less time waiting on a train, despite the arrival time being the same, and no alternate connections being available from there.
I actually like having a little extra time between changes for unfamiliar journeys in case my first train is delayed (very likely in the UK unfortunately) or if the change is a little tricky (some station layouts are a bit baffling if you're unfamiliar with that station). On the flipside, for journeys I know well, I'd like it to offer me the 5 minute change option so I can decide what's feasible for me.
@@hannahk1306 In the App I use, I can set my Walking speed (slow, average, fast). Since it actually considers how far different platforms are away from each other. Since I set it to high though, I sometimes get the instruction to just walk 5km since it's faster than waiting for the next train, which is funny.
@@tsume_akuma8321 Yeah, I've seen those settings too, but I'd rather it just gave me all of the reasonable options because walking speed I find is often the least relevant factor. Navigability of the station, how busy the trains/platforms are (it's irrelevant how quickly I can walk when there's a hoard of other passengers in my way), if it's a train where passengers are likely to have luggage, how close the platforms are and how they can be accessed (flat, stairs, escalators, lifts, ticket barriers) and familiarity with the station are all more relevant to me than how quickly I can walk (they also never give speed estimates with those).
The German app literally should promote itself with: "Nett hier - aber waren Sie schon mal in Neudietendorf" :D As the app will always try to send you there
I regularly travel to Edale from Bootle to go hiking so found this video particularly interesting
Subscribed. Would have been good to have a map or diagram.
Great vid as always! 🎉
Can we up the ante on the Hope to Hope suggestion and do Whitchurch to Whitchurch to Whitchurch. Any order, I don't mind!
I always have issues with journeys to South-West from Waterloo. Even putting in the via it doesn’t want to give the options and you can’t buy one ticket either.
Same with me travelling too Leicester from NCL. I was having to go down to either KGX and walk too Paddington to travel back up or cross-country too chesterfield too swap too Leicester. Then found out there was a Birmingham to Gatwick train via Leicester and Peterborough while i was there ..Not on any Train apps.
You arrived at Chester on 4A the back of it where you were sitting was on 4B. Manchester trains leave off 4A. The Birmingham ones leave off 4B. So it wasn’t wrong. Also, my new favourite train to drive are the 230’s. They’re quirky but rapid. Now they’ve lowered the max temp of the batteries they seem to be a lot more reliable. Still some issues to sort but they’re good.
Lovely vid once again nick!
Try buying a ticket from Hull to Edinburgh for travel after 8am. LNER's website claims "No outbound trains match your search", results from Northern and Cross Country are variable.
Split tickets can be strange sometimes...
When you look on the national rail journey planner and set the start time are 05:30 then the first 4 trains use this exact route.
I’ve been through penyffordd station on the borderlands line from Wrexham central-Bidston-Liverpool Lime Street Low Level.
For next point to point:
Newtonmore to Newton Abbott via Newton (Lanark), Newton-on-Ayr, Newton for hyde and Newton-le-Willows
As I read the title, I immediately thought of international tickets. My local train service is able to tell me which trains I should use, but has no clue how to sell me tickets for the suggested route, so I always have to struggle searching the individual route on each specific local services and buy many different tickets for one ride across the borders.
I’ve just looked this up on the National Rail app and it gives several journey via Shotton and Manchester!
There seems to be a whole new genre of YT videos which might be called 'Nerds on Trains' - most are entertaining, but Steve marsh is the most entertaining I've found (he also uses planes, busses, shanks' pony and ferries).
I do also like the somewhat to very obscure routings and lesser used and lesser known about routes!
Keep going with these!!
On a certain website, it follows the same journey you do with all-day services as an option 😂
brilliant video nick love it
Well at least you’ve solved the broader mystery - the algorithm targets speed. They need a button for “minimise cost”, or someone else can build that.
But yeah 2 choices per day is NOT appropriate. For each given minute of the day, at the destination, there is one “best speed” choice of journey from the starting point. Put all those in a list, delete the duplicates, and you’ll be left with dozens hopefully. Not two.
The best times to film are between 10am and 4pm on weekdays...
Funny that, as it seems to coincide with the times that people are usually working for a living.
I've just put in Penyffordd to Edale via Shotton into National Rail Journey Planner. Route shows up with a price £17,31 taking 3 hrs 41 min.
A map explaining all of this would be nice
Epic video man
If you'd gone one more station down the line from Penyffordd, you could have done "Hope" to "Hope" and thrown in some "Hopeless" & "Hopeful" puns.
great video nick
If you try to go from Wolverhampton to Walsall or vice versa you need split tickets to do the shortest journey, changing at Tame Bridge Parkway. The cheapest journey takes twice as long via Birmingham.
It does look odd seeing the Class 230 with 'normal' seating, as I have many memories of them in their correct form as the D Stock, going past my old school in Southfields!
Which school… if you don’t mind me asking 👀 (I also went to school in Southfields)
Wandsworth Boys School (1977-84)
Great video as always 🎉🎉
I found a ticket from penyfford to edale for £8.45 and is a pretty frequent service 1. 2FXX to Bidston 2. 2WXX to Liverpool lime st 3. 2AXX to Piccadilly 4. 2S82 to Edale albeit with a 4h 47 journey time... The journey in this video however is available on railboard and is a pretty neat little app that shows you all departures from a station as well as train heading codes for any train nerds such as myself! I reccomend checking it out if you get a minute (not sponsered lol)
I have noticed using Google for bus planning that one of the things it seems to quietly optimize for is short wait times for transfers. Most of the time I don't think it makes much difference but sometimes the recommendations are notably different than what I would choose.
England's network always amazes me in how bad it can be. TPE apparently has had cancellation rates as high as 30% over a month. In Melbourne the lower limit is 98% of services running (ignoring major upgrade works), and even then we complain.
Love Transpennine. Cancel the train and get your journey for free
brilliant video
I was even unable to find a route from Cheltenham to Great Malvern. Which should be straightforward - change at one of the Worcester stations. Which is (once more) why we still need ticket offices.
Trainplanner allergic to Shotton shock - there needs to be an 'Expert User' mode on these apps, whereby you can suggest a route \m/
10am to 3pm.... least amount of busyness??? You mean.... off peak????
National Rail app shows both 2-change via Shotton and 5-change via Wrexham et al.
Is there anything in the route planning algorithms that tries to make passengers change at stations with more facilities? From a quick look Shotton doesn't have very much so if you got stuck there due to a missed connection it wouldn't be the most comfortable place to wait.
You wonder whether going to a ticket office (while you still can!) might have caused you to be offered this option. As far as I am concerned, a very-slightly-longer journey that has fewer changes is better for me and most passengers, because you can settle down for the journey and only have to pick up all your luggage when transferring.
Exactly, if a journey is more than 3 trains I generally won't bother and I don't really have the time or knowledge to be researching optimum routes - that's what the ticket finder algorithms are supposed to do for me!
If you're starting from Penyffordd, there *is* no ticket office.
Good luck if starting at (insert correct spelling of pennyford here) because apparently there is no ticket office there
Brilliant video Nick, Nice to see you finally got a 230 ride. Also I see TPE are still TPE lol.
Even though they now owned by the government
@@BMWM5sarecool 185s owned by Eversholt Rail, and same staff as before.
Nothing's changed, so nothing's changed....
@andrewnelson4057 The trains may be owned by Eversholt, but the operator has changed which would usually see a full rebrand (e.g. Virgin Wedt Coast became Avanti)
@@andrewnelson4057 Well, they’re working on the training backlog, but the results of that won’t be seen until probably the end of 2024…
This video could have benefitted from a map.
I actually found a route in Ireland which goes from one station to another 25 km away which you can go by 3 other lines to get there for the same price journey time 3 hrs plus
Which Stations?
@@haddockman30 Templemore to ballybrophy via Waterford back to Kildare to ballybrophy.
On a single ticket it's only one part of the day
I tried doing the journey Nick did on my journey planner app and I ended up with 6 different journeys I could do per day.
Finally Nick gets his 230!
5:38 I noticed on this video and whenever I ride a 231, but the voiceover says "Welcome aboard Transport for Wale" and it confuses me.
Well, you can be glad that your journey planner is not as stupid as the german DB app... that DB app when you try to use the regional trains from going somewhere in the north to somewhere in the south will ALWAYS try to send you via a small 1 1/2 platform stop where you get greeded by a one car train similar to a pacer for then around 200-300 passengers...
...when Wales starts this 20mph speed limit for ALL vehicles, does this include trains and boats/ships? (Asking for a friend)
Out of interest how common is it for the ticket apps to give unoptimised journeys (i.e. where the ticket for a given route could be bought for less if done manually with some tweaking)?
Great video Nick! As always!
I’m going to put my grumpy hat on. It’s great to see the 230’s getting used. We got them on the Bedford to Bletchley line originally only to loose them when the company that maintained them went into administration. We live on an island where it wouldn’t hurt to move a unit to a location that could maintain them. On the other hand the abundance of displaced units like 150s/153s/156s etc that cannot be drafted in to stand in at short notice. As for the “well we need time” excuse. It’s been months….. months and nothing has happened. Since when has train science been more complicated than rocket science? The fact an “operational” part a line that is supposed to be operational as part of the East-West rail link in a few years cannot operate, is a joke!
Congrats on getting your first 230 Nick
Technically his first 230 was a few weeks back but we didn’t record anything 😂 it took us a while to try and get one but eventually we did
Nick, you can't buy a ticket between Runcorn and Runcorn East because they are considered interchange stations... Despite being about 5 miles apart and with no direct bus service between them either.
Nice interesting journey Nick. Great video
It seems as if Thameslink tells you to change at Man Oxfd Road and Shotton, which as far as I can see is the closest to your route, so well done thameslink i guess?
Can you go to morecambe on the longest train route
please
imagine if TFW had got a 3 car 150 to just troll nick
Hi Nick, do you ever use apps that work out the cheapest fares using split ticketing? I wonder if one of those would've spotted this route you took.
I tend to use TrainSplit to find out the most optimal split ticketing options, then book those. Unless there isn't a split ticket option for my journey, then I'll just use a TOC app.
Sounds like a tube train.
Just checked the journey you’re doing and it is odd that hardly any journeys come up online. LNER has nothing!
All very Jarvis Cocker in face, accent and manners. Don't worry, that's a compliment.
This ‘valid route’ system is outdated, broken, and makes very little sense to regular travellers, let alone most enthusiasts like Nick… you literally have to find and read this microsoft excel document with tens of thousands of lines to be able to find what the valid routes are for your journey. I wish I was joking but im not. The infrastructure on our railway is excellent and so improved compared what it was 5-10 years ago, but the backend systems are as broken as ever.
Great video though btw!
No! You are the recipient of positive words
RUclips is a strange place.
We are watching someone ride public transit.
Shotton is a fun station :)
I love shotton 😍