I agree with John about takebacks, but often in my online games I often come across situations where it is obvious my opponent has made a mouseslip (example: moving the king over one square instead of castling), and will gladly give my opponent the takeback, as not agreeing to it can seem a little cheap/in poor sportsmanship.
Totally agree re: obvious mouse slip take-back offers. At the same time, it's understandable that John was a bit annoyed -- seeing as this situation was quite a bit different. His opponent moved, perhaps overlooked John's reply, and only then offered a take-back. And what happened? John overlooked Qa4 -- the winning move. Not that his opponent intended for that to happen I assume, but some players do seem to offer take-backs with the sole purpose of messing with their opponent's head in a last-ditch effort to stir up confusion in losing positions. It's a dickless tactic, and deserving of criticism imo. All that being said, I like the take-back option to avoid the situation you just described -- ending an otherwise interesting game prematurely due to a silly mouse slip...but you have to admit, that attitude is only conducive to casual play; that perspective isn't acceptable in a more serious game among serious players. You could make the argument that all online chess should be played causally, but John takes these longer time controls more seriously. Maybe it's a temperamental thing, or maybe it's something you can't really appreciate until you devote as much time to this game as chess professionals like John do. In any case, I think John was right to be a bit annoyed by his opponent's take-back offer -- it was completely unjustified in this situation.
I agree with this thread. Assuming that your opponent is castling early, then I too would probably grant the takeback in a standard time control game, say 10 or 15 minutes plus. But in Blitz I wouldn't, and it should go without question in bullet that it should not be granted. Back to the topic - I can understand John's annoyance because it was fairly late in the game and quite possibly intended to cheapen the game being played, by White.
Even in the event of a mouseslip I would rather resign than ask for a takeback. Lichess allows you to disable the takeback feature, another nice aspect of the site.
John, lichess allows you to turn off the take back option. It's in Preferences, then Game Behavior. I used to get lots of takeback offers, then lengthy timeouts or insults when I refused. It's much better this way.
Hey John! Thanks for the good work, my game improved a lot since I am watching your videos. I love especially the "chess fundamentals" and "climbing the rating ladder" series. Greetings from Hungary!
Very nice. Great lesson in that 'let the other guy explode' thing. Qe4 is just a straight up tactics trainer gotcha! SO: What more could a boy want? "Dear Santa: I wanna remote helicopter, anna half open f-file with an octo knight on e5. Could my opponent get in time trouble first, please?"
You should do a Kings Gambit video where you play it against different rated players to illustrate its good and bad sides and show common middle game themes. Could do it with other openings too but I like the kings gambit ;p
Was the knight really that great on e5? I feel like after 21. Be2 it's sort of out of the game. It looks good, but it can't really go anywhere threatening (and takes away the e5 square from the bishop).
Hey John, your videos are wonderfully instructive. Could you please do some videos on specific openings or defenses? I know it's a lot to ask to do it for free on RUclips, but I would love to learn openings from you.
I saw the takeback comments before the game, and thought you were going to be punished for kindness or something! Glad you weren't. Great video as always, tempted to look into the KID, seems interesting and I have a decent handle on the first few moves already from playing against it as white.
Hey John, you and your videos are great. I am a regular fan. Wanted to ask you tho, what's your opinion on the stonewall Dutch defence? I've been hearing people sayin, awww Dutch takes too much risks, it's scary, i'd never played it and so on. But, i believe that even if it looks scary (which is does tbh), it is solid enough, i think. Things can go wild if white decides to play the stauton gambit, but since most of the times white opens up with d4, it's more likely for them to play a more quite line. I think stonewall Dutch is an underrated opening and unpoppular for not a clear reason, but mostly because of how it looks. I mean, Caro-Kann for example, has gone down in poppularity because it got refuted by the masters over the years. But i think that stonewall Dutch, got rejected just because of the looks, and not because of some sort of a specific anti-Dutch system which claims any decent advantage with white, or am i wrong? What's your opinion on that? And maybe we could see you playing the Dutch? Again, your work is much respected worldwide. Greetings from Greece.
I didn't see 24...Qe4 but was looking at 24...Qg5 with the idea if 25.Bf1 Nf3! which boxes the white queen out and strongly threatens Qg3 where white will have to pitch his queen to avoid mate..white can spoil it by going into a technically lost position with 25.Bg4 though.
Hmm strange how did you missed Queen c4? I think sometimes you are a little bit to materialistic and "too" solid (avoiding active continuation). And that Knight b5 is shown as blunder is no suprise in my eyes, white cant simply remove all his defensiv pieces from the king side to the queenside, while blacks pieces luring around the kingside with attacking potential. On the other hand your strategy and positional understanding is very well : ) i think if you would try to play more active lines and be a little bit less greedy (take the initiative instead), you could "easylie" improve by +50 USCF, maybe after some initial losses due to experimenting
Yeah, not a big fan of the takeback feature. Seems laughable. Man, Ne5 was the MVP. Enjoyed the game as always, I'm nearing the 1900s on Lichess. Looking foward to taking you on someday....
"That's about the most amateurish thing you could ever do" (regarding takebacks) I think that's pretty disrespectful towards your opponent. You simply don't have to accept the takeback, but to state that after your opponent offers one is in poor taste (as it's not as if he was spamming you for the takeback). I don't think you're a disrespectful person, it was simply an unnecessary comment.
I agree with your general sentiment about respecting your opponent, but even for someone who has no problem with takebacks for obvious mouseslips or perhaps even leaving a piece hanging, this request was clearly outside etiquette. Asking for a takeback when you play a conceptual mistake (taking away a defender to go for a queenside pawn) in a standard game is way outside the bounds and cheapens the game.
Requesting a takeback for no apparent reason or because you think you blundered IS completely amateurish. It's a breach of etiquette, and you would never catch a serious player doing this. I was merely pointing this out.
+John Bartholomew You seem to be forgetting that you're playing on a free-to-play site with no stakes involved. Regardless of whether it was a breach of etiquette or not on your opponent's behalf, a second wrong isn't justified when your opponent is wrong. The player for all you know doesn't know any better and for you to call him out in public is not only elitist, but degrading as it is a completely unnecessary remark. The fact you are completely unapologetic and defensive speaks volumes of the fact that you don't care how you sound as long as you have followers who will willingly listen to the words you say without applying their own logical perspectives. Do you wish to hear criticism for your videos? That is the reason I'm bothering to even comment on these videos as I typically enjoy your content and believe that the remark is uncharacteristic for the standard you typically set.
In the past I'd be tempted to go back-and-forth with you, but I don't believe I did anything wrong, and you've already made it clear that you think I was disrespectful. So let's leave it be.
Back off a bit Matt. John makes world class videos of a world class game that he understands at a world class level for us all to learn from and enjoy. Not only whilst playing this game at an intellectually high level he gives us his thoughts and considerations. Multi-tasking at world class high level. No-one is writing him a politically correct script follow and so his thoughts are his own and deserve respect as such. Of course it is correct to respect one's opponent but it is equally correct to express opinion and freedom of speech is the centre of democracy and what we stand for in the western world.
I agree with John about takebacks, but often in my online games I often come across situations where it is obvious my opponent has made a mouseslip (example: moving the king over one square instead of castling), and will gladly give my opponent the takeback, as not agreeing to it can seem a little cheap/in poor sportsmanship.
Totally agree re: obvious mouse slip take-back offers. At the same time, it's understandable that John was a bit annoyed -- seeing as this situation was quite a bit different. His opponent moved, perhaps overlooked John's reply, and only then offered a take-back. And what happened? John overlooked Qa4 -- the winning move. Not that his opponent intended for that to happen I assume, but some players do seem to offer take-backs with the sole purpose of messing with their opponent's head in a last-ditch effort to stir up confusion in losing positions. It's a dickless tactic, and deserving of criticism imo.
All that being said, I like the take-back option to avoid the situation you just described -- ending an otherwise interesting game prematurely due to a silly mouse slip...but you have to admit, that attitude is only conducive to casual play; that perspective isn't acceptable in a more serious game among serious players. You could make the argument that all online chess should be played causally, but John takes these longer time controls more seriously. Maybe it's a temperamental thing, or maybe it's something you can't really appreciate until you devote as much time to this game as chess professionals like John do. In any case, I think John was right to be a bit annoyed by his opponent's take-back offer -- it was completely unjustified in this situation.
I agree with this thread. Assuming that your opponent is castling early, then I too would probably grant the takeback in a standard time control game, say 10 or 15 minutes plus. But in Blitz I wouldn't, and it should go without question in bullet that it should not be granted. Back to the topic - I can understand John's annoyance because it was fairly late in the game and quite possibly intended to cheapen the game being played, by White.
Agreed, very obvious mouseslips are different. I have also granted these in the past.
Even in the event of a mouseslip I would rather resign than ask for a takeback. Lichess allows you to disable the takeback feature, another nice aspect of the site.
John, lichess allows you to turn off the take back option. It's in Preferences, then Game Behavior. I used to get lots of takeback offers, then lengthy timeouts or insults when I refused. It's much better this way.
Hey John! Thanks for the good work, my game improved a lot since I am watching your videos. I love especially the "chess fundamentals" and "climbing the rating ladder" series. Greetings from Hungary!
good video, instructional work every time. thanks John
Thanks, Michael!
Very nice. Great lesson in that 'let the other guy explode' thing. Qe4 is just a straight up tactics trainer gotcha! SO: What more could a boy want? "Dear Santa: I wanna remote helicopter, anna half open f-file with an octo knight on e5. Could my opponent get in time trouble first, please?"
LOL - a takeback. That was a timely comical event.
he wanted to lose quicker but John was relentless :D
Exceptional video, as always. Thanks!
You should do a Kings Gambit video where you play it against different rated players to illustrate its good and bad sides and show common middle game themes. Could do it with other openings too but I like the kings gambit ;p
Oh yeah Im sure alot of ppl would love to see that!
Reaching into your memory banks to remember, strikes me as a very valid endeavor :)
amazing line in king Indian. There's always something new to learn in your games.
Was the knight really that great on e5? I feel like after 21. Be2 it's sort of out of the game. It looks good, but it can't really go anywhere threatening (and takes away the e5 square from the bishop).
Hey John, your videos are wonderfully instructive. Could you please do some videos on specific openings or defenses? I know it's a lot to ask to do it for free on RUclips, but I would love to learn openings from you.
Check out chessable.com
33:45 - Qe4 leaps out as a nice move.
I saw the takeback comments before the game, and thought you were going to be punished for kindness or something! Glad you weren't. Great video as always, tempted to look into the KID, seems interesting and I have a decent handle on the first few moves already from playing against it as white.
Lichess.org says that H-tawfeeeek uses computer assistance :(
Hey John, you and your videos are great. I am a regular fan.
Wanted to ask you tho, what's your opinion on the stonewall Dutch defence?
I've been hearing people sayin, awww Dutch takes too much risks, it's scary, i'd never played it and so on.
But, i believe that even if it looks scary (which is does tbh), it is solid enough, i think.
Things can go wild if white decides to play the stauton gambit, but since most of the times white opens up with d4, it's more likely for them to play a more quite line.
I think stonewall Dutch is an underrated opening and unpoppular for not a clear reason, but mostly because of how it looks.
I mean, Caro-Kann for example, has gone down in poppularity because it got refuted by the masters over the years.
But i think that stonewall Dutch, got rejected just because of the looks, and not because of some sort of a specific anti-Dutch system which claims any decent advantage with white, or am i wrong?
What's your opinion on that? And maybe we could see you playing the Dutch?
Again, your work is much respected worldwide.
Greetings from Greece.
if you play the stonewall make sure to get your bad bishop outside of the pawn chain.
I didn't see 24...Qe4 but was looking at 24...Qg5 with the idea if 25.Bf1 Nf3! which boxes the white queen out and strongly threatens Qg3 where white will have to pitch his queen to avoid mate..white can spoil it by going into a technically lost position with 25.Bg4 though.
Audio much better on this video. I enjoy the real-time analysis in the longer games.
Glad the audio is better. Thanks, Jacob.
Hey isn't that opening for black called the "pirc defense"?
Hmm strange how did you missed Queen c4? I think sometimes you are a little bit to materialistic and "too" solid (avoiding active continuation). And that Knight b5 is shown as blunder is no suprise in my eyes, white cant simply remove all his defensiv pieces from the king side to the queenside, while blacks pieces luring around the kingside with attacking potential. On the other hand your strategy and positional understanding is very well : ) i think if you would try to play more active lines and be a little bit less greedy (take the initiative instead), you could "easylie" improve by +50 USCF, maybe after some initial losses due to experimenting
Oh, are you playing the chicago open?
I am not.
I only ask for and give take backs on castling mouse slips LOL
Yeah, not a big fan of the takeback feature. Seems laughable. Man, Ne5 was the MVP. Enjoyed the game as always, I'm nearing the 1900s on Lichess. Looking foward to taking you on someday....
Everytime I see John's opponent finding good defensive moves, it's a cheater
good sir! very instructive kid !
other people watch movies I find your videos more enjoyable thx
Nice game
very good
"That's about the most amateurish thing you could ever do" (regarding takebacks)
I think that's pretty disrespectful towards your opponent. You simply don't have to accept the takeback, but to state that after your opponent offers one is in poor taste (as it's not as if he was spamming you for the takeback). I don't think you're a disrespectful person, it was simply an unnecessary comment.
I agree with your general sentiment about respecting your opponent, but even for someone who has no problem with takebacks for obvious mouseslips or perhaps even leaving a piece hanging, this request was clearly outside etiquette. Asking for a takeback when you play a conceptual mistake (taking away a defender to go for a queenside pawn) in a standard game is way outside the bounds and cheapens the game.
Requesting a takeback for no apparent reason or because you think you blundered IS completely amateurish. It's a breach of etiquette, and you would never catch a serious player doing this. I was merely pointing this out.
+John Bartholomew You seem to be forgetting that you're playing on a free-to-play site with no stakes involved. Regardless of whether it was a breach of etiquette or not on your opponent's behalf, a second wrong isn't justified when your opponent is wrong. The player for all you know doesn't know any better and for you to call him out in public is not only elitist, but degrading as it is a completely unnecessary remark. The fact you are completely unapologetic and defensive speaks volumes of the fact that you don't care how you sound as long as you have followers who will willingly listen to the words you say without applying their own logical perspectives. Do you wish to hear criticism for your videos? That is the reason I'm bothering to even comment on these videos as I typically enjoy your content and believe that the remark is uncharacteristic for the standard you typically set.
In the past I'd be tempted to go back-and-forth with you, but I don't believe I did anything wrong, and you've already made it clear that you think I was disrespectful. So let's leave it be.
Back off a bit Matt. John makes world class videos of a world class game that he understands at a world class level for us all to learn from and enjoy. Not only whilst playing this game at an intellectually high level he gives us his thoughts and considerations. Multi-tasking at world class high level. No-one is writing him a politically correct script follow and so his thoughts are his own and deserve respect as such. Of course it is correct to respect one's opponent but it is equally correct to express opinion and freedom of speech is the centre of democracy and what we stand for in the western world.
Grafyx brought me here. Anyone else?
great vid thanx
First 😬