These 3 heroes should NEVER be strong in Overwatch 2
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
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Moira is just a wasp at a fucking picnic
Nah mate that is the genjis wasps
@@tackjens
Nah dude. Even for Cass mains, it’s an absolute nightmare to deal with Moira often times.
I can confirm.
As a support main I'm glad we have one.
Sick of the constant abuse from dps and tank diving support.
@@AdhvaithSane Cass? never heard of a voerwatch hero named that
McCree, you shill @@tackjens
i fully agree with the moira take (i'm totally not a genji main)
As a fellow gengi main i agree although i will say skill diffing a moira or mei in a 1v1 is the best feeling ever.
I agree with this, even as a tracer main
As a Cass Player. I despise Moira players.
As an Ana main it's land the sleep or hit 3 shots+ nade or she will harass you the whole game. She can literally just stand there because your rifle is a DoT so she doesn't even have to actually AD strafe because you don't kill her fast enough. It's legit half your clip if she's not dumb enough to stand in melee range for an extra 40 damage.
I totally am a genji main
“Back in the day” brother it’s been a year and a half 💀
Ik, I fully expected him to say “back in the day in OW1” 👴🏻
Put mauga on that list too. Oh wait...
he rlly isnt that bad to deal with now just very situational
Unless your staying still and he's lucky you'll be fine as a lot of heros, for tanks a lot of them are good against him, even a rein can sometimes put him in place
@@B0R3D0M5when Mauga is the only tank in meta, he ruins the game.
@BrokenWind0w18 yeah he's not that bad now but we're upu not playing at the start of the year when he released and you could only pick him or it was an Instant loss
@@BrokenWind0w18 because hes not meta
“Unless you’re a genji main.”
UNSURMOUNTABLE RAGE!!!!
Deserved
@@anerexicpig720 I could almost forgive the auto lock on, I could almost forgive the fucking sniper like reach, I could almost forgive the fade, and I could almost forgive the orb, BUT WHY THE FUCK does her dmg give her self heal?!
Miss one right click on her and you might as well uninstall.
@@TheBossManBoss319 Cant argue with that lmao
Correct, what all genji mains deserve.
@@I_Am_Sinchy genjis been dogshit for like 4 or 5 years now. In those 4 or 5 years he’s been playable at most for like 3 weeks during that time. Anyone who rages at genji mains are bronze who can’t aim.
1. Agreed
2. Agreed
3. Oh man my girlfriend's going to be so mad.😂😂😂
Heresy, ow players dont have gfs, she's either not real or a skinwalker, no in between
@@justacursedlego286or AloneInTheDork isn't an overwatch player... 🤔
@@justacursedlego286 ow player here, i have a gf and many of my ow friends are married and have kids
@@marukoconton5584 she's a skinwalker, watch your back while you sleep
@@justacursedlego286 no
Moria take is valid she should be a way for support players to
1) focus on decision making, with the easy abilities of Moria she can focus on where she is and who needs heals
2) to start learning that they also need to do damage to win games as support
Theres other simpler characters who can create value as well and do these things. Like zen or Baptiste. Moira is like the most annoying of them
@@notbox3696 You're right that Moira is most annoying. The thing is that those characters are far harder than Moira. They need actual aim. They need to be far more careful with their positioning because they don't have an automatic escape like Fade. They have one self heal each plus the general regen passive, whereas Moira has 3 self heals plus the general regen passive. She's meant for new players to get into support or players who have never played support to be able to begin.
Yeah I'd agree. Moira takes the aim factor out whereas Zen and Baptiste both require good aim to be good with. Zen is even harder to learn onbecause in lower skill lobbies he is not protected as much. So the player would have to know really good positioning as well.
And also let's not forget her range buff. She used to be able to deal damage at close range like reaper. Now she can just sit back and mid-range and just use her damaged orb and get kills
@@bastianlopez458 exactly a buff that makes a lot of sense for a beginner but won’t affect high level play too much because Morias kit is too basic (not enough utility)
I'm a DPS and support player and oh my god ive hated Moira since she came out. The fact that 3/4 of her player base forget what role they're playing doesn't help. Plus, whenever my team has a Moira she's in the enemy backline getting killed every 3 seconds but when she's on the enemy team she either has 20k healing or damage
I've honestly never been a big fan of her
Back in overwatch 1 she was actually fairly balanced
I think it's mainly because she wasn't able to deal so much damage
Now though she is so annoying
And I hate her so much
Mainly I hate her abilities
Her like orbs are fine
But that other one that I can't remember the name of is really annoying
It's basically like reapers wraith form but you have no idea where she's going
I find Orisa worse, Bastion I agree with, honestly I don't mind Moira that much, at least not for a short meta, I agree she shouldn't be meta for long (the like 2-4 weeks she was strong recently and then nerfed was totally fine, imo). I find Kiriko much worse to play against, though she is a bit harder to play, I'll give her that, but she's been meta for so long while Moira had like her couple of weeks of glory. Mercy and LW are also a strong contestant for the support spot.
Orisa is so easy to pick off if you have a DPS willing to go Mei for the Ice Wall cutoff or Sym to just melt her. Hog can self outheal a Mercy Boosted Level 3 Sym beam as if it were Melee attacks. And that's IF you even get to level 3 without being one tapped from the Hog hook around a corner and through three teammates.
Can tell you're in silver from the orisa/mercy/lw comments lol
@@bunnyg4464 Just imagine a 100 heals per sec lifeweaver. Would be devastating.
Obviously, heroes that shouldn't be meta are often the ones that end up being "easy to play"
@bunnyg4464 Bro,I'm Masters after rank reset, lmao. Short comments are amusing.
If any support shouldnt be meta anymorre, its Mercy. I have ptsd still from the days of Playing Wheres Waldo with her while she hides in a corner somewhere until a team wipe just to fly in and press Q
Remember the rock on Hanamura A? Bastion was unkillable back then
I completely agree about Moira. The easiest support to both play and master (skill floor and ceiling). Easy mechanics for both damage and healing. High output AOE healing, so she doesn't need to prioritize as much as the single target healing supports. 3 self heals (damage beam self heals her, healing orb, and Coalescence) plus the general self healing passive (btw all other supports in the game have 1 method of self healing besides the general regen passive, not 3). And when poorly positioned, Fade is a free get out of jail card that makes her invisible and invincible, so she's more difficult to track than someone like Mercy for example (because we can see where Mercy flies to) and she cannot be hit while Fading, enabling her to avoid many types of lethal damage even without cover. She's the easiest support in the game, and that's because she's meant to be the starter/entry level support character. But yes, she should never be meta.
1 ability can hit Moira while fade, it's Sigmas grav pull. They changed that mid 2023
I’m going to call myself out as I actually love playing her because I like the play style but even I agree, she can be really frustrating to deal with and she’s just so easy that she should never be meta. I do enjoy that they made her easier to cure as it raises that skill floor a little and makes sense for her character, though I do hope they make an rework for her as she doesn’t really add much except some good survivability and flanking plus being able to do AOF healing. (it’s also kind of hard to tell where her orb will go)
Y’all acting a little too smooth-brained in these comments rn.
Also in case you couldn’t tell, he just picked one from each role. Yes there are more heroes you could choose for this.
Coulda done more than three lol there’s a lot of options
@@nicjames6112you see where it says short?
@@Wildkoala1technically he could been a little faster explain and fit at least 1 more hero in this short
As a road hog one trick/top500 road hog should be good but not meta
Totally agree as a ball player for both. I want hog to be like an anime rival. Good but not meta 🤝
As your mothers lover i disagree with this take
@@auxilyatg5321 LMAOOO. Idk I feel like every character should have SOME sort of playability. Obviously I wish that characters like rein, winton, were stronger than ball/hog. But you should be able to play the characters even in QP and feel like you’re doing a little bit at least. Except Orisa players.
@@auxilyatg5321 huh?
@@sawtuthe9670 Cyx did just fine with him being average, not even good. Maybe you should just get good.
Still waiting for orisa and mauga to be said
Seems like he just picked one from each role
Orisa doubt it especially with the nerf from the recent patch. Hardly any reason to use Fortify anymore to try preserve your health to disengage and escape from a gun fight. Instead of using one ability you gotta burn two
Peak orisa is not as bad as the hog Meta we have right now, sure orisa when she was meta was unkillable like hog is but unlike hog you could escape orisa, hog forces you to play very carefully and boringly otherwise you get hooked, it’s basically playing a giant unkillable widow where if you peak you die, it’s horrible to play against right now and I can’t wait until they remove his one shot combo that literal metal ranks on console can even easily do.
orisa is a simple tank and her meta gets boring, but its not the same, orisa is not as annoying to play against.
@@pipipi5118nah orisa could ruin the fun of a match.
Nah bro hating on Moira is not just a you thing she is so annoying (I’m a little bias cause I love playing genji)
You mean bastion a winston counter made Winston switch????!!!!!!
NOO waaaaaaay
Winston has the most brain dead counters tho
@@necrosis6037still counters nonetheless
@@diamondsfinest8294 I’d say he’s pretty decent into bastion actually. Reaper is a pain in the ass but he’s manage. Torb is the worst
I was a Moira main for my whole Overwatch “career”. As someone with not so good mechanical skill, but pretty good game sense, I appreciated how you could get value with her without HAVING to be good at aiming.
I can understand these types of heroes can be frustrating, particularly in lower ranks, but I do think it’s important to have heroes like that in a game like this. You just gotta balance them properly (as always).
Now I’m a WifeLeaver main, tho. Again, has that slightly more laid back style but his kit is wayyyy more fun. Moira is pretty boring to play and I realised I should actually be having fun rather than “just winning” being the only objective.
Moira is good for teaching people who are too brazen to calm down. DPS going rogue and not staying with the team? Gets Moira sucked. Tank going in without support and low HP? Moira sucked and orb. DPS on your team staying far away from you and not getting closer for heals? Moira orb and wasted left click bar.
However, game sense also adds into this, and if people dont have it, they wont learn and wont improve.
First Overwatch short I've seen in a while that is actually valid. You could argue Moira but you did say it might be personal preference and I respect that
5v5 killed characters like hog, ball, rein and a few others and it makes me sad
Hog is literally meta rn
@@CodycooTheAwtt litteraly 2 weeks ago he was bottom tier. he already got nerfed and he is probably going to get nerfed again tbh
@@CodycooTheAwtt Any character would be if you gigabuffed them... the reality is that hog simply needs busted stats to stay relevant because he is meant to be an off tank, so putting him in a main tank role puts pressure on him that he isn't meant to handle, which is why he needs a ton of self heal. The fact that he is always either meta or garbage tier should tell you that some characters simply don't fit 5v5
@@LyIaKingto parrot your point, yes he’s meta, but not because of his original design. He’s not the same character he was since the vape changes.
I agree, i dont think rein fits in that list but i agree
Agree with all the picks, but I think the list could be expanded a little longer
Why wouldn't a Winston swap off when Bastion is on the field? That's literally just a counterpick because now his shield becomes even more invalidated and he just provides free ult to Bastion.
This community hates bastion and will take any opportunity to shit on him 🤷🏾♂️ there are other DPS characters who can force such a tank switch that have been consistently a problem but they won’t say anything unless it’s about the statistically/historically weaker characters
@ExclusiveExcellence sounds about right lol. I've mained him since day one in OW1 up until I quit so I know more than half of it lmaoooo
Agreed. His argument was stupid. He complains about Hog too and they're both characters that have a decent amount of counters. Anything that absorbs damage counters bastion. Junkrat (my favorite character) easily counters Bastion. Sure Hogs heal is annoying but you know whos worse Mauga he can heal himself by doing damage and anyone within a radius of him can heal themselves too. He has immunity to cc on his charge. Him and Orisa are annoying as hell
I think complaining that “the best Winston in the world was forced to swap off Winston” when the game at any level is all about counterpicks. By his argument, if the best reaper player in the world picked reaper and he had to switch off Winston, “reaper is oppressive”.
That's the entire point. If someone who is immensely strong on one character can't counteract the easy 'free' value a simple opposing hero swap can achieve, then the balance is off. It's what makes ow balance changes so bad when they keep reinforcing the strength of counters instead of flattening the curve so that a really skilled player can overcome an obvious counter swap with greater skill.
Orisa is right there mate
Bastion is already a shadow of himself.
Bastion got me to grandmaster the first 2 seasons 💀 after the nerf, I couldn’t even use him anymore
He’s still good
@@arcaneegg5076 barely, he’s very easy to counter now.
He's still really good
He can easily tank loads of damage still even with a cool down
He still deals loads of damage
And that damn grenade is so powerful I think it's by far the most powerful part of his kit
Like a 120 damage a shot will leave like 90% of the DPS heroes running
Even some of the higher health heroes like reapers or other bastions will take loads of damage from it
Not to mention his perfectly accurate primary fire
And assault form is still really good
Personally what I like to do is use flank routes
You might not expect this but bastion is surprisingly good on the flank
He's really tanky so he's fairly hard to kill
He can easily win a fight for the flank since usually the only hero who gets set on the flank is mainly other DPS heroes which bastion can take out easily
And his sheer damage output will make even most tanks back off
I still cry every time I use artillery wishing I could go back to tank form
@@arcaneegg5076 he’s average, not good. Bastion is super easy to counter
Kinda shocked sombra wasn't on the list
The main hero that should never be meta is life weaver. His whole kit is based around denying enemy value and a life weaver meta would genuinely be miserable. Every time you spot a positioning mistake you try to punish it and then that invulnerable bubble comes in and saves them.
Isn't it like this anyways?
Sure life weaver still isn't that meta
But if he's being used and you see someone out of position and try to punish then the same thing happens
Especially bad now since blizzard just recently buffed him
“When hog is good, the game is bad”
-flats I think
I woulda had sombra and pharah in there somewhere 💀
Pharas fine
Sombra isn't
slippery slope logic
I truly do not understand why people say she is boring and I might be biased as a Moira main, but she is ACTUALLY FUN. Not high skill tier hero, yes, but def not boring. Learning her super jumps and getting the best angles of those balls are the best
A lot of people (myself included) don’t like her because she doesn’t have any defining mechanics or utility. The super jumps and orb geometry are basically it and those have quite a low skill floor and ceiling. She’s just not a very deep or mechanically demanding hero and she’s quite forgiving which makes her frustrating for lower ranked players to face. She’s like the Mauga of supports. Just raw stats and survivability with not much activity. That’s why she’s not popular but if you find her interesting then good for you because it’s hard to have fun in this game these days lol
agreed. I also just play for fun so all this meta stuff goes over my head. I just want to play my favorites. The superjumps are very satisfying to pull off to get to high ground too!
She's boring to play against, every interaction against her is the same and you never get the feeling of "I got outplayed" against Moira
Honestly, shes all i play in role queue because of this. I dont find ANY other character fun with the current meta or balance patches. I only play moira or i play Mystery Heroes cause those are the only ways I have fun.
Ow players will always complain about Moria. She low skilled hero she shouldn't be meta, devs gif her a hard to hit skill shot in ow2 beta everyone complain.
And fun thing is Ana has been a meta support for longest time in ow history and and for a long time you never seen people complain about her why becuase she was a high skill hero
I would like to add on sombra and orisa. One character who acts as a stealthy assassin with the ability to shut down other characters and easily confirm kills on squishies rather consistently and a character who’s role in the game is to say “was I about to die? No I wasn’t.” Any time they’re in any amount of danger, need I say more?
I feel like Sombra can be up there for now, but if they were to remive perma stealth for a more OW1 style, then she can be removed
Back in the day Ball couldn’t give his shields to his teammates, like back in 1895
Those characters all gain value if the enemies don't how to counter them, zen and ana as support and roadhog gets no value, bastion Sombra and widow, he has a massive hitbox and for moira cass/rein/sombra or widow, rein has a shield, widow and cass stay out of her range to selfheal and sombra is low risk to fight her
Jesus man, do overwatch players in metal rank have smooth brains? They comment without thinking
-a metal rank player
Ong this whole comment section is brain rot. Really thought I was on TikTok. These people must not know Spilo is a literal former OWL coach 😭
@@SuperSigmaMonke i am indeed a metal rank player, but knows whats up 😉
I was masters tho before season 9
@@angeltorres9232 im just kidding its true most of the comments are pretty stupid
i agree with the moira one, i play mostly support and moira gets free value out of just existing and distracting the enemies, kiriko does aswell but at least she has to turn around and teleport to a teammate, moira doesnt need any teammates to get away
Do you see how all of these just makes the enemy tank's life miserable? If only there was a second tank
Yes I also want to sit in queue 5x as long as I already do
@@camphorgaming6747queue times in ow1 were only worse when they literally abandoned the game. otherwise they're basically the same
@@iSuckAtGamesGGNo, they were worse almost the entire time. Also, "abandoning the game" has nothing to do with people not wanting to play tank.
@@aolson1111 ur joking right? nobody wanted to play overwatch in general at that time, so no duh queue times were long
@@camphorgaming6747you can't be fr. Even in 5v5, queue times are outrageous. And honestly, this type of logic has become so stale and redundant. Anyone who has played the custom 6v6 mode or hell even open queue would tell you that having a second tank is alot more fun and relieves a good amount of stress. So chances are after seeing how shit tank has been in 5v5, more people would opt to play 6v6 knowing there's a second tank
bro. what are you on about?
huge flaw in his character design? Thats not his character design. Thats 5v5 design.
Is bastion a problem or does he only do too much damage to tanks specifically? If sleep dart can get reduced effectiveness on tanks, maybe some other abilities could get the same treatment, even reconfiguration.
Bastion is a problem BECAUSE he does too much damahe to tanks, and I think an easy way to make turret form worse against tanks (without having to make a specific damage reduction to tanks) is to reduce the spread, reduce the damage and give him the ability to headshot (maybe with only reduced multiplier). This way hes more accurate so CAN shoot squishies but does less damage overall so is less operssive. It would also be nice if he didnt have an effective hp of like 450 while in turret form.
@@BagelBoi4000sorry but you're wrong about the dmg part. Reduced spread does not affect interactions with tanks at all, perhaps you meant bullet per second? Also, being able to headshot would feel opressive on tanks just as much. Tanks have bigger headshot hitboxes than the rest so a bastion would Practically hit 70-80% heDshots when going against tanks. It doesn't help that tank is also the closest target to hit. That is the tank problem in 5v5. No one is going to waste time trying to kill a faraway target with toothpick hitbox, when they can shoot at the closest target that cannot be missed and be guaranteed tons of value. If that tank is forced to back away, hide and get healed, your team can advance forward easily. If you manage to kill the tank, then gg no one else is able to compensate that loss since no one else has the tools to do the tanks job. Frankly, in average ranks, no one is able to do their own job either without having frontline
@@yoyo-van Reduced spread in combination with reduced damage means he CAN shot squishies without having to only shoot tank, at the moment hes so tank damage focused BECAUSE he can only shoot tanks. At anything beyond point blank range he misses most shots on squishes. A reduced dps, but ability to actuall daim changes nothing on how many shots he hits on tanks, because theyre already so easy to hit, but reduces how much damage they take. Whereas a reduction in spread significantly increases his dps on squishies so he has more options. The important part here is the reduced damge in combination with reduced spread and the ability to headshot. The headshot passive means headshots are less effective on tanks and his damage would be nerfed to compensate for the buffs, promoting more dynamic choices of target. The exact same thought process could be applied to mauga.
@@BagelBoi4000i do understand what all those thing mean and do, i was just pointing out that the spread reduce wouldn't itself change anything. The dmg nerf sure. But the crit is still gonna ramp back up the dmg vs tanks, unless ofc it has a very low base dmg to begin with. basically, in your opinion his turret form should be something like a Soj or soldier? I mean all in all, that could tone down the tank busting potential but it's gonna wipe his identity completelly. That is a sign of a design problem in the game which i am trying to convince people of. The other thing i want people to realize is that focusing tank is a mindset that also, right now, gets tons of value. It doesn't matter that much if players are given the option to effectively fight the backline as long as focusing tank is allowed to feel rewarding. If the easy thing is rewarding enough, most players won't pick the hard thing that is slightly more rewarding. If that was the case, ppl would be picking genji whenever the enemy tank was carrying so that they could avoid him and eliminate the backline, not pick bastion just to make that tank miserable. So figuratively speaking, it's like the faulty mindset of the playerbase had a child out of wedlock with the poor state of tanks in OW2 and they created that problem child known as the "just shoot tank" strat. It should not be allowed in the game the way it is, but it persists and devs bark at the wrong tree with these changes. Bastion as a singular hero design is just a residue of the 6v6 format that doesn't fit in current format. Although, Generally speaking every tank problem that we have now is in a way a 5v5 problem. There is not a single thing related to tanks that 5v5 fixes gameplay-wise. Even tanks like Orisa and Hog being busted or annoying is an indirect result of 5v5 which demands these heroes to be all or nothing, since only being something makes them off-tanks, not enough to be mega main tanks able to fulfill their role singlehandedly. On the flip side, Rein is struggling bcs he was designed to be ONLY a main tank, dependent on his off- tank. Bastion does not need to become completely different hero, he just needs to not be meta. Regardless, the way things are right now, there is no actual fix to it that's gonna feel Satisfactory in the genetal sense, from the angle of every role and stay that way in the long run
Bastion was mostly a problem for tanks because if the value you got from just swapping to him. Is the enemy team playing rein or Winston? Play bastion and wait for engages to shred the tank. Bastion config was just doing so much burst dmg that it made no sense to look at anything that isn't the tank
Sombra the worst most unfun character they’ve ever made
The difference between these characters and the meta characters now like souj Kiri is that all three of them have glaring weaknesses. Kiri and souj are so versatile and strong fundamentally that I think they truly should never be meta. I think the meta is only healthy when the characters who are at the top aren't so versatile that you have to mirror or you just can't do enough. Like bastion turret has counterplay that can be counter played with mastery so there's actual back and forth. Souj as almost equal tank killing potential with a stick for a hitbox vs bastion. She has actual movement that's way better than bastion nade and it's own cooldown. She has an ultrasound where she does bastion ult damage but all she has to do is point and click, and she has a nade that just does even more damage in an area big enough to hit a whole choke
Good take
I don’t completely disagree, since Souj and kiri are absolutely overturned even when they weren’t meta, but a big part of frustration in facing a hero is how easy it is to get value on that hero. Bastions, RH, and Moira’s value comes at near zero cost of skill. Their floor is extremely low, and nearly everyone can pick them up. Kiri and Souj, if not overturned, would have a much higher floor, so the effort to receive a high reward would be more acceptable to face. This is why genji metas are generally considered some of the best, since his floor is quite high, so a lot of effort is required from the player to receive the reward.
On the point of countering and versatility, I don’t disagree too much. I do think their metas aren’t great, but I’d argue it’s because they are just overturned. Kiri’s suzu just does too much and Souj’s damage output has always been asinine. If they were tuned correctly, they’d be harder to play in certain comps and find a good spot in less situations unlike them fitting in any now. Currently they just do everything too well, and they have since their inception. But, as mentioned, they’re not as easy to play as those on the list so they tend to be less frustrating than others.
Don’t get me wrong, Souj and kiri are frustrating, but it’s on a different level than Bastion RH and Moira.
Moira gifts players with an easy nuisance attack from across the map. And they're all overconfident until they run into mfers who actually pay attention
Moira should be removed from the roster immediately.
you forgot mauga in there too. Hes a bastion that has more health, can heal, gains overheal from crits and shoot for seemingly forever.
And? How's this op
@@bluespidergaming7719 because if hes meta the skill expression absolutely sinks to whoever has better aim (not hard to aim regardless) and not only that forces support players to play around him. and sometimes dps players to also tank bust. its super boring
1 per role
@@martianfn2012 so your complaint is "hes easy to play" and that his teammates might actually have to be of some use
@@bluespidergaming7719 yea imagine if an easy character was the meta? imagine how boring and low the skill ceiling and skill expression would be. "YEP I JUST HOLD M1 and M2" and "IF MY SUPPORTS DONT PLAY ANA KIRI WE LOSE". if you dont see a problem with him being as good as he was on release than you might have brain damage
3 facts about the game - 1. It 2. Is 3. Shit
So we should nerf him, and not kiriko who enables him against grandma(she deserves a rework too)
His hook should pull people to him,bc its always a kill and that is not ok for tank
They just need to remove the self heal from hog, and give him more dr and increased healing from other sources when he uses his breather, hell you can prob even toss movement buff in there but I believe no hero besides solider and supports should have self healing.
Because if a heros entire thing is healing than they can have their entire thing shut off by ana which will always force kiri, and you see this with mauga too and even to lesser degree with reaper in lower ranks where supports will go ana to prevent a reaper from killing their tank ny removing his self heal.
Self healing is just not healthy for the game unless it has a serious draw back like how soldiers kit is designed to be mobile but than his self heal completely goes against that and is onna stupid long cool down which is almost an arguement to get rid of it for the soldier players sake.
Mei is another one where stopping entirely is maybe a good enough trade off for self healing but she can cap points with it which if you removed that than maybe its alright but again I think theres a more interesting design you could go for in her kit than just self healing but again its probably enough of a draw back and anti cant effect it so maybe it's fine, but hog would honestly be fine if ge didnt force you to pick anti healing to beat him, and had to actually rely on healing from his team like every other tank.
@@SandlerShephord i 100% agree with u about his breather
@@SandlerShephord IMO it’s his DR that makes him oppressive. The self heal was not a problem before it got a massive DR change. The DR is what allows him to maintain contact while vaping instead of running for cover (which he had to even when capable of moving with his vape and way back when he had to stand completely still to vape). With more DR and no healing, he’ll just be pumped by supports while maintaining frontline pressure. IMO this doesn’t address his main issue, which is his risk reward and effort ratio (Minimal effort and risk for a massive reward).
@@shnitzel9052 brother hes been problimatic from the launch of ow1 so dont say he was fine before anything because hes never been fine 😂
And by your logic, reins shield is problimatic, d.vas dm is problimatic and any other dmg midigation ability is a problem because reins shield allows him to just stand there and be healed inna choke and we should remove all heros dmg midigation and replace it with healing if that's the case. But the problem is if you removed his dr and only left his heals than you're forcing ana and kiri to have to play the suzu wars even harder as hog will need compensation somewhere which will most likely be his heals than as the only other option is his hook combo, so than you have a tank who can either outheal everything or has 0 midigation.
Or you can remove his heals, and give him dr and movement speed while using the breather so he can actually tank incoming dmg like rein can with his shield or d.va can with her dm but if hes caught out without his team or his backlines targeted while you push him he can be pushed through like every other tank since the real issue is hog is entirely self sufficient so even when you target the infrastructure around him like the supports helping him, he can still do stuff, which is why people hate hog, he can just sorta do whatever he wants while the other tanks are actually bound by needing their team, hes the polar opposite of orisa issue where orisa only works with a team around her but is to strong with a team and cant even make a single play on her own.
@@shnitzel9052In my opinion all it needs is a longer cooldown, if they make it so being ccd out of heals is life threatening again then I believe it'd fix the character. Obviously don't make it like old hog where a single CC ability gets you killed, but make the risk higher. As far as a DR nerf goes, that's kind of a tough subject, because without enough of it he completely falls apart to anti nade, and will feel less and less like a tank without it, and he doesn't have a shield to defend himself after being hit by nade, so he's kind of forced to just waste his heals to live.
Also I kind of agree with many others. They should remove his one shot combo, and this is coming from someone who mostly plays hog. I don't know how they would go about that, but I'd prefer his hook to be more about team coordination like pudge from Dota 2, rather than instant death to majority of the cast
How about Lifeweaver?? The game was unplayable for me when he was meta a few seasons ago.
@@jrodd13 when was life weaver ever meta? I'm high plat/ low diamond and he was generally said to have always been a bad pick.
That’s probably the worst argument to make for saying Moira shouldn’t be meta
She’s the most barebones and soulless character they’ve made. No skill expression or interesting mechanics. I’m convinced the only reason they haven’t reworked her yet is so mercy one tricks can have a fallback character.
@@spoon115_ ok but thats just you ranting and not a reason for her not to be meta
Moira provides 0 utility for her team, all she has is raw healing and damage, nothing else. Why should she be meta and stronger than someone like Ana who everything in their kit is 1) a skill shot 2) situational 3) versatile. Moira being meta would mean that ana having to land every single shot, ability, and timing of her abilities would be worth less than Moira right click left click in general direction of team and enemy, again when Ana can choose to nade enemies/allies, hold back on sleeping a flanker or threat to her for potentially something like a ult combo, IF she lands it, and nano being the most versatile ult
@@gomilovesamogus no it’s a pretty damn good reason for her to not be meta. It’s like when Mauga was meta. The game becomes boring because you have characters that are solely good because of stats and not engaging gameplay. Not to mention when those characters are meta you get a bunch more boosted players. No one liked Mauga meta and no one would like a Moira meta.
We had Moira meta in season 9 and I'd say not a lot of supports were really happy lol like season 9 came out, it was lucio zen, then after the zen tweaks we had lucio Moira, and a lot of people just didn't vibe with it
I'm still waiting for Orisa, sombra and soldier to be said....
Soldier?
Really I don't think he's that bad
Like sure if you're playing echo, mercy or pharah then sure I understand
But soldier I would say is probably one of the weaker DPS heroes
He doesn't have that good of damage
His hitbox is fairly large for a DPS
And overall he doesn't even feel that bad
symmetra
Sym has interesting strarts with tp. Look up Bamboozle
Symmetra isn't even that bad
She's annoying but that's mostly due to her turret's and not herself
Unless they actually use the teleporter then I hate her
I had a quick play game
Where they used a sym to to teleport an Orissa right next to the entire team (fkr reference our tank was dead and I believe our DPS was as well so 2 supports alone wasn't great for us but great for them )
Man. The characters of this game were made for 6v6 or at least not a boosted tank. The original game was based on skirmishes not in very very heavy teamfights that last minutes and minutes.
The game should rework a lot of characters if they want keep being the kind of game that they are
I think all of these are personal preferences because your main point is "well that's annoying" when most overtuned characters are annoying
Well in your eyes, what defines heroes that shouldn't be meta then?
we've had metas with all these heroes and we know how miserable it is, it's not preference it's literally their hero design.
This is gonna blow your mind, but every take about game balance is ultimately a preference. The way we differentiate between them is by looking at the reasons for those preferences
I’d much rather have characters like Genji or Winston be over tuned and meta than characters like Hog or Bastion.
@@stefanllamaface2130 lmao nah
Don’t think bastion was a meta in OW1 it’s just u never play Winston into a bastion, the point of monkey is to dive the supports if u have a dps who can break ur shield and ur health bar in about 2-3 seconds u don’t play that character.
It’s INCREDIBLY hard for moira to be meta. She doesn’t provide any utility like anti bade, immortality or any form of attack or attack speed boost. Her entire kit is just damage and heal.
She was meta in season 9 with all the health buffs, survivability can definitely make a character meta even if they have no true utility.
@@crowquet56exactly she didn’t need any utility other than healing as her numbers were huge
Regardless if it's hard for Moira to be meta, it's the seasons where she is meta the game is miserable to play. The lowest skill hero in the game should not get the same value as a more mechanically demanding hero.
@@catbranchman9191
Exactly!
Do you know the easy solution to fix Moira (at least for a while)?
*By reworking her biotic grasp and making the braindead part of her, skill-demanding and her healing part braindead (sort of).*
Which isn’t the best fix, I know, but I just can’t help but wonder.. why did I enjoy Mirrowatch Moira WAYYY more than b itch Moira 🤔
"Bastion meta forced high level ppl to play him" oh you mean just like Sojourn and Kiriko currently ? But I guess since they’re paid characters they don’t care about that anymore
I don’t agree with moria because whenever shes meta its not because of kill potential is healing numbers and how fast she can get heals in
Right, as he said it's free value
Being a character that can 1v1 and output crazy heals sounds awful... The whole point of her not being meta
His take wasn’t about her getting kills. It was that her skill expression is almost non existent and she’s super boring to play when she’s meta.
Yeah at the top level of ay you already see supports lacking as much inpact as tank and dps and moira met makes that even worse
There’s no way he says back in the day and references overwatch2
He was literally a professional coach since the early days of Overwatch one
Bruh, was not the point of the game meant to be the hero switch? Changing off of Winston vs a Bastion is not a bad thing, it's just smart...
The game was better when there was no role lock
Nice video, Ethan. This is a good coffee buying guide. Getting into extracting the coffee you like the best you can is probably another video of the same length.
What are “tank trades”? (I swear a new phrase comes out like every day and I constantly have to look stuff up 😂)
*to play against
Verses is not grammatically correct there and sounds strange
Grammar Nazi
who cares tho? and why?
@@iSuckAtGamesGG me? It matters if you’d like to not sound dumber than you have to
@@cracktact7676but everyone gets the point still, so its dumb to harp on a small thing that has nothing to do with the argument. all that does is destract from the main point he's making for literally no reason, which is even dumber than making a grammatical mistake
@@iSuckAtGamesGG my comment has nothing to do with his argument and clearly takes no stance on it, it’s just correcting a grammatical error. You’re not obligated to care about proper grammar, but if you talk like that, you’re bound to find people who think less of you because of it.
I just recently picked up moira (wifeleaver main here) and dude, she's fucking criminal, her tp is busted with crazy momentum, the orbs are crazy damage and 20 M AUTOAIM, like, really? That's Cass's max range before the fall off
Old bastion was better imo bc to get the damage value you had to be locked in place
They always hate the hog 🤦🏽♂️
Roadhog is a great tank to be Meta because he is the 1 tank that can actually have an impact outside just being a meat shield. He can get his own solo kills, he is faur because he has hella counters, and you don’t eed to rely on your team for anything
Valid point, orisa and mauga metas are much more boring.
great tank for only the person that plays him, anyone w a 1 shot combo is not fun to play against, esp not with 500 health
@@Cat-sf1mi 1 shot does not equate to bad. Yall need to stop with that its so childish. There are plenty of things more annoying than 1 shots like Horse, Ana, Kiriko, etc. Some one shots are necessary like Hanzo and Hog, but yall complain about the wrong shit. Hell Defense Matrix is way more frustrating than a one shot
One shots aren't that bad, like with hog you need most of the Time pig pen, you have to wait and actually land Hooks, but Mauga for example just shoots and thats all
@@Cat-sf1mi*laughs in junkrat*
BOTH HEARTS PUMPIN'
HAHA
SE SEI KOE IKIIKI
Just because you don't like a hero doesnt mean they should be bad
It's not personal preference, it's how fun are these heroes to play as/against and how well do they reward the user for skill?
And just because you need to play easy characters doesn't mean they need to be meta
This isn’t just him. Most people don’t like roadhog. And bastion ruins the game for plenty of tank players. Not to mention roadhog just ruins everything. Any time the devs let him get strong the devs immediately nerf him. Because everyone complains about him being awful to play into. You can kind of objectively see which characters are both good and bad for the game if you really think about it. And the ones he listed are characters that are obnoxious whenever they are good
@@synckz7679 I’m very biased, but idt that’s a Bastion problem, I think it’s a tank problem. No off tank hurt tanking so much in this game. If Reaper becomes meta, tank players will hate him. Same thing with anyone who’s good against tanks. I’m all for the recent tank buffs… 6v6 would be better though.
Basically every braindead character
“Skillful application of skill” sounds so bad
No it makes sense you’re just too stupid to get it. He’s saying that none of her “skills” aka abilities require any skillful action at all
Dive meta is worse especially tracer. Sniper one shot meta is also bad. Bette see bastion every game then widow or tracer
disagree every hero deserves a time to shine
Not if the characters aren't healthy for the game. If they aren't healthy they should either be reworked/massively tweaked or never be meta.
This just isn’t true. This will ultimately kill the game if we try and pretend that every character was created equal and should all be in the spotlight at some point. If a new player happens to try out the game or an infrequently reoccurring player comes back while a really awful character to play against is meta. They just won’t want to play the game again. If roadhog sombra mora are your first experience with the game it’ll be awful and you’ll remember that and not want to come back
Its basically what blizzard has been doing this entire time and they seem to have been towing a very difficult line of evolving the game but catering to their occasionally whiny player base
Personally would have liked to have dive meta persist longer
Its in our best interests to allow blizzard to try something interesting ( mirrorwatch was FUN AF ) and fail than allow stagnation !
@@sesshonuyasha Yes but they've also been doing a poor job at keeping existing unhealthy designs out of the meta (e.g. Orisa, Roadhog) before opting to rework them.
No these heroes are literally just not healthy for the game. The only people that enjoy when these characters are meta are the people that play them.
Additonal takes I would have accepted:
-Orisa: I know Mauga was the issue for S8, but she has been an issue since OW2, even OW1. Plus, Mauga, with right tweaking, can be managed and salvaged. The horse may never
-Widow: The moment she becomes meta, you are no longer playing the game. You are playing against her
-Bridgette: Now she is in a better place, but during OW1, she was the rush denying; now she's more like a rush roadbump can be managed. But that fear of her coming back is still there
-
Ball? Doom? If they are meta no one has fun
Those are two of the most skillful heroes in the game. Heroes that rely on skill to be good should be strong
Those two are incredibly fun to play with and against. Also, simply being able to play those heroes well is rewarding in and of itself.
The only “dive” tank that I am hesitant to see become meta is DVa.
I completely agree but when anyone is able to play them and destroy it’s not fun, cause when you go against a good doom and lose you take a second and say dam I got shit on
Ball and Doom metas are best metas
Ball and doom 😂😂😂😂 bro what those are like the most fun tanks to play with on your team. Uhh oh class we got a braindead Orisa main in the comment section hold on let me stand still and hold m1 so interactive
Every hero should be meta at some point, it’s not healthy for the game to just have the same characters running rampant forever
This shit is such a toxic mindset. Everyone's character deserves a time to be at the top. It's a video game everyone deserves to have fun. Your idea of what takes skill doesn't matter.
He said in his opinion, damn.
Toxic is a hog meta bro
Easy to play characters shouldn't also be OP, not sure why you're crying
Moira main?
It is a competitive game, buddy...
I just played against a guy named "NotaDPSMoiraMain" he had 1k hours and fed whole game
In my opinion mercy should never be meta
Her damage boost WAS (and i say was because right now damage boost isnt really making a big difference like it used to) insanely frustrating to play against, plus you could never win a 2v2 as any other support and dps when the enemy duo was Any good dps with pocket mercy.
And even if you miraculously killed the pocketed dps, the mercy just rez's them and theres the cancer again.
A gameplay that bases by just pressing 3 different buttons (Heal, dmg boost, Guardian angel) should not be meta
"Roadhog gets vaule just for existing" Orisa from season 5 to season 9 counteri g everything in the game and getting only buffs while hog was nerfed to oblivion.
Not to mention forces the enemy dps away from playing Widow, Pharah, Mercy, and that one support with a mace (forgot her name sorry. He literally makes the game interesting and rebalances the dynamics of a losing battle.
At the monastery though with the pit he's pretty cursed.
....Some characters who are countered by Roadhog are jsut straight aids when hes weak though. I also don't agree with the bastion sentiment. Bastion has ALWAYS been a hard counter to winston. Best winston swapping, is the correct play and it'd be idiotic if he just got to ignore that counter-swap. It might be harsh but there are inherent weaknesses in heroes and they SHOULD be there. Even in high tier play. Not being able to force counter swaps in pro-play is one of the reasons as it is that the games are so fucking boring to watch.
TLDR: The example of the pro game is a terrible example of him being strong. If it was like, him dealing a sombra or a tracer at the highest skill bracket, it'd be a far better example as they counter him.
I would argue that while Moira isn't insanely difficult mechanically, she requires a lot of gameplay awareness(knowing what you can get away with, who you can duke, what ability combination you need to do when. When to focus all resources into heal or when to throw a damage orb and keep the healing stream going that way.) Many people pilot her choosing to damage OR heal, when if you're playing her extremely well, you can have good presence in both. She functions a very distinct role in the support bracket as well, she has some of the most agency in how a game goes out of the support role and if she were ever outright terrible, it'd speak a lot to the support role in generals health. She just in counters a lot of characters who are annoying to supports when you get zero aid. The other thing she excels at really well is securing those kills when the enemy team is always just barely living through your teams engagement with very low health.
TLDR: Low skill floor, med ceiling.
Ill admit, bastion is pretty strong. I only really play him if the enemy take is stomping us with like mauga/road hog or to cover for my duo when hes trying a new character.
Hands down Moira is the easiest hero in the game. Playing against her as any movement hero is suck bullshit. Lucio? Just keep him in on your screen. Genji? Keep him in your POV. Tracer? You get my point. Plus her self heal piss orb and fade are just get out of jail free cards
bastion needs buff
Never seen this guy so I don’t know what ELO he’s in. As a hog main he’s easy asf to counter, Ana, zen, kiri, reaper, bastion, tracer, sombra (constant dps debuff), dva, zarya, mauga. Bastions weakness is he dies to dive really easily. Moira is a low skill hero that will almost never be viable in higher ELO play.
How do yall balance it out, no jokes here just genuinely curious should certain health’s be decreased, cooldowns longer, weaker damage or whatever it is how do you balance out all of this while still keeping it fair and enjoyable to play as
I agree that Hog isn't really a fun Meta, I know people don't like Orisa but she's still much more manageable than Hog, I've always had a decent time against her, Hog is infuriating. I can see an argument for Bastion, but I think it isn't too bad, especially when engaging with burst damage heroes. Moira is pretty much fine unless you're Genji, she's also one of the few Supports who can reliably guard the backline from Tracer and Sombra while also possessing decent mobility
No tann should be hard meta. All tabks should be somewhat viable, and some should be better than others for a time but not so much to where the others are throw picks.
Dps: Bastion, Sym, Torb, Pharah, and Junkrat should not ever be meta. None of them should be more than a situational pick because each of them is inherently unhealthy for the game in their own way. Pharah less now because of her rework.
Support: Kiri, Bap, Mercy, Lifeweaver, and Zen. None of these heroes are fun to play against in any way due to their overbearing or unhealthy kits.
I disagree with all 3 of these because there are way more obvious picks for each:
Tank- Mauga- regardless of how you feel if mauga is really strong the game is a slog. Roadhog is at least really fun and has some big counters such as sombra and Ana who can shut him down significantly. Mauga doesn’t care for those too much (though Ana he does because she is ridiculous).
Dps- sombra. When sombra is super meta she is horrible to play against. Simple as the most toxic dps in the game. Bastion has a genji button that deletes him and corners make him basically irrelevant.
Support- Ana. Idgaf if kiriko turns her anti nade off, when she has her strongest nade and sleep abilities it is miserable to even attempt to approach her. Any nerfs are welcome. Moira meanwhile is fun to play and is also pretty easy to deal with considering she’s basically a stats character and not really offering huge team synergy most of the time
This! Especially fucking bastion. Even if i know how to deal with him, there are few problems: my team usually dont. And bastion is always surrounded by supps. And mt team won't even help me/heal me. And my team will blame me for not dealing with him (even though i try and die, and bastion get rezzed) such a cancer character on metal ranka
If you are loosing 1v1s to Moira, I'm sorry you suck. It takes her 8 full seconds to do 200 damage with her primary fire
All heroes should be strong on their own way. But Blizzard keeps fucking them up and becomes too reliant on teamplay. Balance patches keeps reverting changes after 1-4 patches, you know something's wrong to whoever who doing those "balancing".
Lol i became a moira main bc i got SICK of getting dove and my team never peeling. A Doom fist or winston could jump right over their heads and proceed to kill me over an entire minute, and my team would be like: ??heals?
😂now i fade away and keep myself up thank you v much
I find it hilarious that people complain about bastion. He actually hasn't been touched since he was last meta, but is considered "bad" in this current meta. Metal ranks shit themselves vs bastion even though he can be counterplayed by majority of the roster.
And before anyone starts crying about mercy pocketed turret, any character with a mercy pocket is pretty god damn good, even a god damn lucio.
I hate it when Pharah is meta. She dictates ATLEAST two other picks in the match, and looking upward is hella annoying while moving or strafing, or IDK tracking 3 other people( mercy is being chauffeured)
Should moira be meta in her current form? No.. would her being meta be a bad thing compared to the other two on this list in their roles or how broken meta picks like Kiriko and Bap can be when they are very strong in the meta as they have been multiple times? Also No.. even at moiras most meta moments (she’s never been fully meta at any point) her weak slow damage, even though it’s very consistent, makes it so she can always be out damaged if there is skill, and her heals while high in volume and multiple teammates, doesn’t have the burst heal speed of Bap and Ana, while also being on a resource meter that runs out easily under sustained pressure, which are all reasons why she’s not meta, but if she somehow was, those weaknesses would still be there and be highly exploitable, she just doesn’t have the utility for her team to match Kiriko Bap Ana, nor the easy and consistent application of Mercy Lucio or even Lifeweaver.. it’s why you almost never see her in pro play and she would need reworking with utility in mind before you could hope to see her in a healthy wider range of rank divisions let alone meta
Im a moira main, fully agree she should never be hard meta outside of the bronze-plat rank areas. Unless they rework her damaging fire to actually require some level of skill (which clearly they wont for some reason), and trade off the damage on orb for some actual utility like a heal debuff or a slow or something, she's the safe pick that thrives off of just being a nuisance. Same goes for characters like sombra, the character is built to be a nuisance, therefore making them actually good means nobody apart from that player has fun.
Orisa, Mauga, Sombra, Junkrat, Moira for me. All no skill, and more importantly, annoying and boring as fuck
lol I only play Moira support and I think she’s stupidly easy to play. But also I do realize she doesn’t provide much value in higher ranks. Which is why I didn’t switch supports but instead just started playing DPS instead 😂
I would rather hog be meta than junkrat. As a junkrat player I can confidently say the game would go to shit if junkrat was top tier
Never minded Moiras being meta. If they're eating up our loners, generally, so would a Tracer, Genji, or Venture under similarly negligent positioning.
Mauga, Hog, and maybe even Zarya, on the other hand...
You are playing the wrong game if you are annoyed when people just survive or get value for no reason they literally are trying to make that the thing. Remember the exec producers dont play come and what fun quickplay games hence the penalties. Theres a reason jeff left and others have as well we only have a few ogs left. Not to mention a lot of the big streamers switching to variety and only coming back during drops
I'm sorry, but I think Moira is a much better character to be meta than Mauga
While Mauga isn't necessarily bad in my opinion, I think him being meta is basically one of the most unfun metas possible (We did have it, and it sucked)
Moira on the other hand has fun metas, one of them was to farm your ult as fast as possible so you could actually win a team fight
Moira doesn't make a meta bad, just makes it less interesting
Mauga makes it bad, as it is unfun to be against them
Life weaver should never be meta
His healing will out damage any dps damage
His life grip can deny ults or save his teammate when they made a clear mistake and should be punished for it
His tree has the same problem as his healing
He can dash away and it heals him which gives him crazy survivability
He can use petal to survive or deny ults (to deny some ults it takes more skill than other for example trying to deny a dva bomb where you won’t know where it’ll land and denying grav)