The part of her book Thinking Orthodox that impressed me the most was its explanation of how Roman Catholic and Protestant mindsets are similar to each other and how both differ from the Orthodox mindset. A good book for would-be converts.
I Thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. Im a new Orthodox and was protestant for the previous 25 or so years prior to my Chrismation. Im absolutely convinced that I'm completely ignorant theologically. But also equally convinced that my rejection of Protestantism was completely justified.
Thank you for having Dr. Jeannie on. As a former Catholic (and a novice in 2 different orders) it has taken years to change that legalistic/juridical mindset. It is difficult because it can be subtle or it is a matter of what is emphasized yet it has a major impact on your way of thinking about salvation, the Church. etc. My husband has been working his way through your old courses on AF Radio and I have begun. Now we have to purchase your book. Looking forward to reading it.
Thank you for writing this. For sure it can be a challenge to change your way of thinking. More or less I think many of us have adopted a bit of the western mindset and we need to struggle to see that and return to a more authentic Orthodox mindset. Dr. Constantinou created recently a youtube channel you can subscribe to if you want: ruclips.net/channel/UCsicLzq6ChVjpCICY1ILXqA
Well, and the fact that Gospel writers, for example, had different accounts doesn't mean they contradict each other, but rather shows they didn't collude their stories. That provides the authenticity of their accounts. They saw different things, yet none of their accounts contradict each other. "We have to let Luke be Luke, and Mark be Mark." Yes, and this shows the uniqueness of the writers. Different doesn't mean contradictory.
I liked this video. I am learning a lot from your interviews. I am Orthodox inquiring. When she says things like, "There's nothing in the Bible that says "just believing in Jesus" gets you salvation." Can you point me to the Church Fathers who would also say that? Thank you.
Thank you for writing to me! I am glad that you find my interviews helpful:) If you want I can re-invite Dr. Jeannie and ask her about it! (what I think she means is that it is not enough to have a mental assent but you need to "work out your salvation" also. In general, this is present all over the place in the Fathers, for example in St John Climacus' work "divine ascent", there he speaks about many things one out to pursue and not simply to make a brief confession and that's it. We ought also to fight the passions, partake of the mysteries etc)
What does it mean that we are “dead in our sins”? How can one hear the “good news” if they are dead? Unless God turns their stone heart to a flesh heart and open ears to hear and eyes to see?
One thought in regard to the discussion on predestination: The bible says that we are born with a sinful nature like in Romans 7:14 and Isaiah 53:4; David said: "Surely I was sinful at birth." We cannot please God in our natural state - the flesh. And there are many more verses alike. If we choose God we are on the same level with God, making a deal with him, but we CANNOT. God has to draw us to HIM because we are just not able to, because of our fleshly nature. The bible teaches predestination, however I trust that God is totally just, We are NOT puppets on a string. Also seriously God is so much bigger than our brain. Because of our sinful nature we would not choose HIM, HE chooses us. God loves us, only a loving God would sacrifice HIS son.
Dr. Constantinou is highly intelligent and well-educated, but her argument against the Protestant fundamentalist understanding of inspiration is a straw man. I am Orthodox now, but I grew up in fundamentalist baptist churches, went to Bible College, and graduated from a conservative evangelical seminary. None of my teachers ever taught that God dictated the words of Scripture to the authors. Rather, we were taught that God worked within the literary style, culture, and background of the author to communicate the truth without error. No Fundamentalist or Evangelical theologian (that I have encountered) says that God dictated the Bible verbatim. It undercuts the impact of Dr. Constantinou’s work when she indicates otherwise.
It's frustrating hearing somebody as knowledgeable as the Presbytera say that Protestants believe "Christ died for our sins and all we have to do is believe and sit back." That is a huge misconception, and something all the reformers refuted. She also lumps all Protestants into the same category, another big misconception. One easily corrected by simply doing an iota of research. There is huge disagreements among Protestants themselves.
Did you ask God to be saved? Did you become baptized? (Full disclaimer, I'm non-Orthodox as yet). Remember, Christ said that the publican, who prayed "Lord be merciful to me a sinner" went to his house justified. A very common prayer of the Orthodox is "Lord Jesus Christ, be merciful to me, a sinner". It's what the monks chant. And, as the bible says "A tree is known by its fruit". Do you have or are you working on developing, through prayer, struggle and God's grace, the fruits of the Spirit? (Galatians 5:22-23). What you are looking for is a feeling of assurance. But salvation isn't based on "feelings" per se, or mere emotion. Salvation is based on God's promise. Also, check this out: ruclips.net/video/FlJvDz3ZtTw/видео.html
You still have the western mentality, salvation is not a legalistic one time transaction, it's rather a dynamic relation where the believer cooperate with God towards sanctification and salvation. Read some of the fathers teachings on the fall of man. The eastern fathers understanding differs from that of western christianity, this is where the confusion for protestants come from. In order to understand the true meaning of the gospels we have to aquire the mind of the Church. This is the "mind" that wrote the bible, this is the "mind" that formulated the correct teaching of the Holy Trinity and christology, energy/essence distinction, synergy, the will of man etc . This is the "mind" that knew which books to be in the bible. And in order to aquire this mind we have to live like those who had the mind. When those who do not have this "mind" try to understand and interpret scripture they fail to see the true meaning behind it, this is why sola scriptura or "scripture alone" is a false teaching. Because it removes scripture from that "mind" and this is what causes the divisions within protestantism because denominations all have different "minds" trough which they interpret scripture. This is also why protestants think that the orthodox faith contradicts scripture, but it does not if you understand it trough the lense of the church fathers because the fathers had the right "mind". Coming from a protestant background myself this took time to understand but it's truly worth it. God bless
Well, they were 'catholic' but not Roman Catholic (if you want to be exact). And we Orthodox are closer to that catholic tradition than modern Roman Catholics.
*God Inspired Scripture* 19:30 The Scriptures are "God Inspired." What does God Inspired mean in this context? 21:30 Does God have a mouth? 21:48 Tension between 2 ways to understand The Scripture. 22:11 Allegorizing The Scripture. 22:25 God Really Made The World. 22:35 God Operates In A Way That We Cannot Understand. All Human Language is Incapable of Explaining God. 23:04 Lacking in Theological Education? You say things that are completely incorrect, because you're a 21st Century Person (thinking you know the meaning of the language of people in ancient times.) 24:22 The Human Being. 24:35 4 Different Accounts of The Crucifixion of Jesus Christ. 24:50 Different Styles of Writing amongst The Evangelists. 25:03 God Inspired The Human Author by Illuminating The Human Author's Mind. 25:50 Luke tells the story a bit differently, Mark tells the story a bit differently. Each student has certain things in common in speaking about [The same topic] Each student speaks about certain things a little bit differently. 27:01 God did not dictate word-for-word every word that went into The Bible. 27:06 At the same time, Every Word is Godly-Inspired, by The Holy Spirit. *Syenergy, a cooperation, a partnership between God and the human person* 27:23 28:15 We participate, We receive more Grace, we respond to that Grace, and God grants us more Grace, and we develop into a Christian Person. 28:38 The Orthodox Christian Church believes in Synergy. Roman Catholics do not have Synergy. *Ways of Salvation* 29:06 Believing in Jesus Christ, Must Be Baptized. 29:26 The Good Samaritan. Love Your Neighbor As Yourself. 29:38 The Last Judgment. 29:51 Lots of models for Salvation, because we have to do alot of different things. *Synergy* 30:07 God does not take control of the writers of The Bible. Each writer has his own writing style. *St Basil's 6 Days of Creation* 30:52 31:24 The Sun is Created On The 4th Day, so how can The Day's be 24 Hour Periods? 32:11 In order to understand The fathers, you have to understand their culture. *Manichien Heresy: The Manicheans* 32:43 Manicheans
Until Messiah comes (or comes back again), all the words of the preachers, rabbis, prophets are completely speculation based on scriptural interpretation. Messiah will make true what is true, until then we all will stumble around listening to the thousands of teachers like these.
Well, the Christ you talk about didn't say that right? He didn't say we will live clueless until He returns but He said the opposite. And isn't what you said self-refuting? If what you said is true, then what you said is also "completely speculation based on scriptural interpretation".
@@AccordingtoJohn A true Irony. Neither you nor I can physically prove anything the bible claims. Only Messiah can. You can read a Book (bible) but those are interpretable words on paper at a different time and different culture written to different people (you assume the words are for today, or us, unfortunately only HOPE, and not truth, can make that leap as a surrogate for truth). For instance, You can swear you saw big foot, you can write about your visitation by space aliens--but you can't prove it till you can take me to them 100% of the time (the actual physical evidence). I don't know how you can live with yourself when scamming people claiming the scriptural words as reliable facts from ancient papyrus shreds of esoteric writings by assumed authors--The fact is when you show me Messiah; don't read to me, or interpret your hopes to me. (or tell me to read according to your hermeneutical suppositions) And I never said clueless! Like most "holy authoritarians" you prejudice your argument.
@@werkzeugmann6224 To insult someone personally (you called me "like most "holy authoritarians"") in a debate usually means that the person doing the insulting lost the debate. Yet you did say "completely speculation" and if that does not mean "clueless" I don't what does. It is not a prejudice, it is a synonym. So you speak of "completely speculation based on scriptural interpretation" yet you yourself use a Biblical term "Messiah" and you interpret part of his role which will be, to use your words, to "make true what is true". Who told you that? How do you know that the word "Messiah" refers to a person, that it is a title? How do you know he will "come or come back again? as you wrote. It seems to me that you yourself are doing a whole lot of reading and interpreting as it relates to the Bible. You reject "preachers" of the Bible but then you are teaching yourself how everyone "should" understand these things. In your attempt to correct everyone (all the words of the preachers, rabbis, prophets are complete speculation) you are indirect saying that only you are correct. Not only are you then contradicting yourself, but you also seem to imply that only you have the truth.
@@AccordingtoJohn You use the word "seems' a lot. is that a predicate for applying your own reasoning? I know what I see, hear and read; but it doesn't make it true about the things I see hear or read. The only force that makes it true is when what I see, hear or read "provably" happens. For instance I hear that if you put gas in a car it makes the car run--this is provable by trying it, and "Behold" it runs. This is not always the case with scripture. You said I insulted you, no I made a conclusion based on experience and observations of many types in this industry, field of work, or what ever you call it. It was you who interpreted it as an insult. I have insulting words if I really wanted to insult you--Therefore I don't desire to insult you--what good is that? my conclusion: it is of no good! but to you that depends on your interpretation....of the words I said.
@@werkzeugmann6224 Interesting exchange. Here are my questions to you, sir. You mention 'provable' and 'true' as the two concepts that guide you. How do you define evidence/proof and truth?
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The part of her book Thinking Orthodox that impressed me the most was its explanation of how Roman Catholic and Protestant mindsets are similar to each other and how both differ from the Orthodox mindset. A good book for would-be converts.
I Thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. Im a new Orthodox and was protestant for the previous 25 or so years prior to my Chrismation.
Im absolutely convinced that I'm completely ignorant theologically. But also equally convinced that my rejection of Protestantism was completely justified.
Thank you for sharing this and welcome home.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" - John 10:27
Thank you for having Dr. Jeannie on. As a former Catholic (and a novice in 2 different orders) it has taken years to change that legalistic/juridical mindset. It is difficult because it can be subtle or it is a matter of what is emphasized yet it has a major impact on your way of thinking about salvation, the Church. etc. My husband has been working his way through your old courses on AF Radio and I have begun. Now we have to purchase your book. Looking forward to reading it.
Thank you for writing this. For sure it can be a challenge to change your way of thinking. More or less I think many of us have adopted a bit of the western mindset and we need to struggle to see that and return to a more authentic Orthodox mindset. Dr. Constantinou created recently a youtube channel you can subscribe to if you want: ruclips.net/channel/UCsicLzq6ChVjpCICY1ILXqA
Presbytera is always a joy to hear. God bless you and your family.
Well, and the fact that Gospel writers, for example, had different accounts doesn't mean they contradict each other, but rather shows they didn't collude their stories. That provides the authenticity of their accounts. They saw different things, yet none of their accounts contradict each other. "We have to let Luke be Luke, and Mark be Mark." Yes, and this shows the uniqueness of the writers. Different doesn't mean contradictory.
Thank you so much for this... You have no idea how a blessing this is for us here in Africa 🙂
Thank you and l am learning so much ! God bless you for your wonderful work.
I love you Dr Jeannie. You are beautiful. I am so glad God has you. xo
This was great and so very interesting. Happily, I have your book...I didn't know who you were until today.
As you can see, since my wife started to do the thumbnails they got much better
🤣❤
Always give credit to the wife. Good on ya!
Such a great interview! Thank you for posting!
Subscribe, Like, and share if you want!
Oh cant wait for book, hope it will be available on kindle as well
I hope so too
I liked this video. I am learning a lot from your interviews. I am Orthodox inquiring. When she says things like, "There's nothing in the Bible that says "just believing in Jesus" gets you salvation." Can you point me to the Church Fathers who would also say that? Thank you.
Thank you for writing to me! I am glad that you find my interviews helpful:) If you want I can re-invite Dr. Jeannie and ask her about it! (what I think she means is that it is not enough to have a mental assent but you need to "work out your salvation" also. In general, this is present all over the place in the Fathers, for example in St John Climacus' work "divine ascent", there he speaks about many things one out to pursue and not simply to make a brief confession and that's it. We ought also to fight the passions, partake of the mysteries etc)
What does it mean that we are “dead in our sins”? How can one hear the “good news” if they are dead? Unless God turns their stone heart to a flesh heart and open ears to hear and eyes to see?
Prespatera you are the best
Thank you both
I hear my Shepherd's voice calling, and I follow ... all the way home ... :)
Excellent interview. You just got a new subscriber 👍🏻 🇺🇸. Florida.
Wow, big brain. Very nice.
Excellent. Just excellent.
One thought in regard to the discussion on predestination: The bible says that we are born with a sinful nature like in Romans 7:14 and Isaiah 53:4; David said: "Surely I was sinful at birth." We cannot please God in our natural state - the flesh. And there are many more verses alike. If we choose God we are on the same level with God, making a deal with him, but we CANNOT. God has to draw us to HIM because we are just not able to, because of our fleshly nature. The bible teaches predestination, however I trust that God is totally just, We are NOT puppets on a string. Also seriously God is so much bigger than our brain. Because of our sinful nature we would not choose HIM, HE chooses us. God loves us, only a loving God would sacrifice HIS son.
Great lecture! Greetings from Brazil!
Hello from Greece! I am glad you liked it!
Dr. Constantinou is highly intelligent and well-educated, but her argument against the Protestant fundamentalist understanding of inspiration is a straw man.
I am Orthodox now, but I grew up in fundamentalist baptist churches, went to Bible College, and graduated from a conservative evangelical seminary. None of my teachers ever taught that God dictated the words of Scripture to the authors. Rather, we were taught that God worked within the literary style, culture, and background of the author to communicate the truth without error.
No Fundamentalist or Evangelical theologian (that I have encountered) says that God dictated the Bible verbatim. It undercuts the impact of Dr. Constantinou’s work when she indicates otherwise.
Is she calling out Jay Dyer?
It's frustrating hearing somebody as knowledgeable as the Presbytera say that Protestants believe "Christ died for our sins and all we have to do is believe and sit back." That is a huge misconception, and something all the reformers refuted.
She also lumps all Protestants into the same category, another big misconception. One easily corrected by simply doing an iota of research. There is huge disagreements among Protestants themselves.
The title should read “How *Do* the Church Fathers Interpret the Bible”
Yes, I am really bad with titles
@@AccordingtoJohn I’m just your friendly neighborhood Monophysite trying to help out
@@TheCopticParabolanos Truly the internet has made us all neighbors. Thank you for being on my channel!
@@AccordingtoJohn my pleasure!
So, how will I know if I am saved or not?
Did you ask God to be saved? Did you become baptized? (Full disclaimer, I'm non-Orthodox as yet). Remember, Christ said that the publican, who prayed "Lord be merciful to me a sinner" went to his house justified. A very common prayer of the Orthodox is "Lord Jesus Christ, be merciful to me, a sinner". It's what the monks chant. And, as the bible says "A tree is known by its fruit". Do you have or are you working on developing, through prayer, struggle and God's grace, the fruits of the Spirit? (Galatians 5:22-23). What you are looking for is a feeling of assurance. But salvation isn't based on "feelings" per se, or mere emotion. Salvation is based on God's promise. Also, check this out: ruclips.net/video/FlJvDz3ZtTw/видео.html
You still have the western mentality, salvation is not a legalistic one time transaction, it's rather a dynamic relation where the believer cooperate with God towards sanctification and salvation.
Read some of the fathers teachings on the fall of man. The eastern fathers understanding differs from that of western christianity, this is where the confusion for protestants come from. In order to understand the true meaning of the gospels we have to aquire the mind of the Church. This is the "mind" that wrote the bible, this is the "mind" that formulated the correct teaching of the Holy Trinity and christology, energy/essence distinction, synergy, the will of man etc . This is the "mind" that knew which books to be in the bible. And in order to aquire this mind we have to live like those who had the mind.
When those who do not have this "mind" try to understand and interpret scripture they fail to see the true meaning behind it, this is why sola scriptura or "scripture alone" is a false teaching.
Because it removes scripture from that "mind" and this is what causes the divisions within protestantism because denominations all have different "minds" trough which they interpret scripture. This is also why protestants think that the orthodox faith contradicts scripture, but it does not if you understand it trough the lense of the church fathers because the fathers had the right "mind".
Coming from a protestant background myself this took time to understand but it's truly worth it.
God bless
Wonderful ! Thank you !
All the Church Fathers were Catholic not Orthodox.
nope
Well, they were 'catholic' but not Roman Catholic (if you want to be exact). And we Orthodox are closer to that catholic tradition than modern Roman Catholics.
*God Inspired Scripture*
19:30 The Scriptures are "God Inspired." What does God Inspired mean in this context?
21:30 Does God have a mouth?
21:48 Tension between 2 ways to understand The Scripture.
22:11 Allegorizing The Scripture.
22:25 God Really Made The World.
22:35 God Operates In A Way That We Cannot Understand. All Human Language is Incapable of Explaining God.
23:04 Lacking in Theological Education? You say things that are completely incorrect, because you're a 21st Century Person (thinking you know the meaning of the language of people in ancient times.)
24:22 The Human Being.
24:35 4 Different Accounts of The Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
24:50 Different Styles of Writing amongst The Evangelists.
25:03 God Inspired The Human Author by Illuminating The Human Author's Mind.
25:50 Luke tells the story a bit differently, Mark tells the story a bit differently.
Each student has certain things in common in speaking about [The same topic]
Each student speaks about certain things a little bit differently.
27:01 God did not dictate word-for-word every word that went into The Bible.
27:06 At the same time, Every Word is Godly-Inspired, by The Holy Spirit.
*Syenergy, a cooperation, a partnership between God and the human person*
27:23
28:15 We participate, We receive more Grace, we respond to that Grace, and God grants us more Grace, and we develop into a Christian Person.
28:38 The Orthodox Christian Church believes in Synergy. Roman Catholics do not have Synergy.
*Ways of Salvation*
29:06 Believing in Jesus Christ, Must Be Baptized.
29:26 The Good Samaritan. Love Your Neighbor As Yourself.
29:38 The Last Judgment.
29:51 Lots of models for Salvation, because we have to do alot of different things.
*Synergy*
30:07 God does not take control of the writers of The Bible. Each writer has his own writing style.
*St Basil's 6 Days of Creation*
30:52
31:24 The Sun is Created On The 4th Day, so how can The Day's be 24 Hour Periods?
32:11 In order to understand The fathers, you have to understand their culture.
*Manichien Heresy: The Manicheans*
32:43 Manicheans
Not true, Catholics absolutely do believe that we contribute to our salvation.
Until Messiah comes (or comes back again), all the words of the preachers, rabbis, prophets are completely speculation based on scriptural interpretation.
Messiah will make true what is true, until then we all will stumble around listening to the thousands of teachers like these.
Well, the Christ you talk about didn't say that right? He didn't say we will live clueless until He returns but He said the opposite. And isn't what you said self-refuting? If what you said is true, then what you said is also "completely speculation based on scriptural interpretation".
@@AccordingtoJohn A true Irony. Neither you nor I can physically prove anything the bible claims. Only Messiah can. You can read a Book (bible) but those are interpretable words on paper at a different time and different culture written to different people (you assume the words are for today, or us, unfortunately only HOPE, and not truth, can make that leap as a surrogate for truth). For instance, You can swear you saw big foot, you can write about your visitation by space aliens--but you can't prove it till you can take me to them 100% of the time (the actual physical evidence). I don't know how you can live with yourself when scamming people claiming the scriptural words as reliable facts from ancient papyrus shreds of esoteric writings by assumed authors--The fact is when you show me Messiah; don't read to me, or interpret your hopes to me. (or tell me to read according to your hermeneutical suppositions)
And I never said clueless! Like most "holy authoritarians" you prejudice your argument.
@@werkzeugmann6224 To insult someone personally (you called me "like most "holy authoritarians"") in a debate usually means that the person doing the insulting lost the debate. Yet you did say "completely speculation" and if that does not mean "clueless" I don't what does. It is not a prejudice, it is a synonym. So you speak of "completely speculation based on scriptural interpretation" yet you yourself use a Biblical term "Messiah" and you interpret part of his role which will be, to use your words, to "make true what is true". Who told you that? How do you know that the word "Messiah" refers to a person, that it is a title? How do you know he will "come or come back again? as you wrote. It seems to me that you yourself are doing a whole lot of reading and interpreting as it relates to the Bible. You reject "preachers" of the Bible but then you are teaching yourself how everyone "should" understand these things. In your attempt to correct everyone (all the words of the preachers, rabbis, prophets are complete speculation) you are indirect saying that only you are correct. Not only are you then contradicting yourself, but you also seem to imply that only you have the truth.
@@AccordingtoJohn You use the word "seems' a lot. is that a predicate for applying your own reasoning? I know what I see, hear and read; but it doesn't make it true about the things I see hear or read. The only force that makes it true is when what I see, hear or read "provably" happens. For instance I hear that if you put gas in a car it makes the car run--this is provable by trying it, and "Behold" it runs. This is not always the case with scripture. You said I insulted you, no I made a conclusion based on experience and observations of many types in this industry, field of work, or what ever you call it. It was you who interpreted it as an insult. I have insulting words if I really wanted to insult you--Therefore I don't desire to insult you--what good is that? my conclusion: it is of no good! but to you that depends on your interpretation....of the words I said.
@@werkzeugmann6224 Interesting exchange. Here are my questions to you, sir. You mention 'provable' and 'true' as the two concepts that guide you. How do you define evidence/proof and truth?