ATSC 3.0 Is Making ATSC 1.0 Worse
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 18 ноя 2024
- Since by law many ATSC 3.0 channels need to coexist with ATSC 1.0 for a set amount of time, both ATSC 1.0 and ATSC 3.0 have to fit in what’s left of the scarce public TV airwaves that was previously only made up of ATSC 1.0 stations. This creates a problem. How does a broadcaster keep ATSC 1.0 broadcasts on the air while broadcasting in ATSC 3.0?
Enjoy this video? Subscribe to WNY Over The Air: www.youtube.co...
Is your market ATSC 3.0/NEXTGEN TV? Find out here:
South Florida and Western New York:
wnyovertheair....
Everywhere else:
www.atsc.org/n...
www.rabbitears...
www.antennaweb...
Follow WNY Over The Air on Instagram: / wnyovertheair
WNY Over The Air now has a website!: wnyovertheair.com
Receive a custom antenna recommendation from WNY Over The Air today at wnyovertheair.com
WNY Over The Air is also apart of the rabbitears.info dxing map at multiple locations! Check it out here: tropo.wnyovertheair.com
WNY Over The Air is dedicated to providing valuable information about OTA TV in the U.S, Canada, and Mexico regarding NTSC Analog TV, ATSC 1.0, and ATSC 3.0. Western New York’s unique reception capabilities will also be featured. This channel will promote the use of OTA technologies but is not affiliated in any way with outside entities. Whether you’re just discovering the technology or have used OTA for decades, there is content here for everyone.
If you like the content, consider liking the video or subscribing.
K03IM-D owner/operator here - thanks for the props!
Thank YOU for the awesome ATSC 1.0 station! Also, thanks for the donation! You didn’t have to, and it’s incredibly kind of you to do that. If I’m ever in the area, I’d love to test out your station and make a video on it!
@@WNYOverTheAirmy pleasure, and you’re welcome. Support what you love, I say. This station is remotely managed, but I do visit the site from time to time, so perhaps we could coordinate something. Teaser: a preso covering the background, station build, and other details: docs.google.com/presentation/d/1i1JDUwY_Kvusffg4rtoCUpSy1hNju8JEgWEhF9X09aY/edit
ATSC 3 is already shooting itself in the foot by pushing DRM when the technology has been inconsistently implemented. Adding new compression codecs to the ATSC 1 standard becomes a tempting way to get to 4k broadcast.
In Houston TX, KVQT-LD has 9 of its 18 subchannels in AVC and they look great.
I actually have a remote tuner in Houston, and noticed this today… Unfortunately, several of the 480i AVC channels have three or six seconds of audio and video synchronization error… 😂
good to see someone else trying new shit though!
I am going to demonstrate to my bosses this week what our station would look like with HD AVC. Not sure if I can get it up the corporate chain, or even who makes the encoding decisions, but it's worth a shot.
That's awesome!
Curious how this demonstration turned out
So what happened... First, all of my demo TVs are only MPEG-2, despite being newer and somewhat smart. So I needed to use a STB. Second, TVs are dumb and will still work with missing metadata. Third, I had an MPEG-4 channel (not one of ours) in my office and my boss exclaimed he could read the fine print. Fourth, layoffs. Both bosses are gone now and the greater team includes mostly gray-haired guys. We were already looking at an encoder upgrade, not sure if I'll be able to squeeze in a few MPEG-4 or HEVC licenses though - it's already over $130,000.
@@BetaEngineer what brand/model of mpeg ts mux is handling your air feed? Also, let it be known that all of my mpeg2/avc/hevc encoding is open source (ala ffmpeg and others). this means the cost to configure and operate my station, including all of its 14 programs, is only the cost of x86 hardware, and some time to make things work.
Would be happy to demonstrate ways to use free software to encode your various subchannels.
Focusing on hevc for UHD, but you can gain some appreciation for how this might look:
docs.google.com/presentation/d/1hysslJsp6rTYkWuOmDBKfLXK-wl_8WrGCc0Bk2sF9IE/edit
@@BetaEngineer don’t lose all hope just yet; my whole station is ffmpeg & one outboard mux - you can absolutely transcode & supply the right stuff to your existing mux, all software, assuming you’re comfortable configuring and making it happen… not exactly a how-to, but should help fill in the gaps:
docs.google.com/presentation/d/1hysslJsp6rTYkWuOmDBKfLXK-wl_8WrGCc0Bk2sF9IE/edit
Updated codecs were only part of the improvements offered by ATSC 3.0. There were also changes aimed at making the signal less fragile, curing multipath and other problems, such that viewers could receive video while in motion, etc. and get better reception from greater distances while stationary. I don't think there's any way to implement that in ATSC 1.0.
Still, if we're going to be stuck with 1.0 because Sinclair et al are determined to put DRM into 3.0, it would be great if they could update the codecs at least. I remember it took them a long time to stop sending 480i channels letterboxed (which was really stupid). Maybe if they can put a toe in the water with AVC, we might get somewhere.
The situation here in the United Kingdom is a similar one with mobile companies buying spectrum resulting in shrinking bandwidth availability leading to channels lowering the bitrate. Some SD channels are unwatchable due to the low bitrate, it's amazing they're allowed to broadcast in such poor quality.
Most SD channels still use mpeg-2, the HD channels and a small number of SD channels use AVC. There's no talk of moving more SD channels to AVC or HEVC.
In 2024 an internet streaming service is set to launch which is predicted to carry most / all terrestrial channels. With rumours of more spectrum being sold off to mobile networks in the coming years it seems we might end up with a situation whereby only a handful of channels broadcast over the air and the rest via internet streaming.
That's horrible! Is there any talk of using IP-based broadcast technologies like 5G Broadcast or ATSC 3.0 in the UK? OTA IP Broadcast and Multicast is the future of OTA. It makes sense to go with that, not completely get rid of OTA broadcast!
We use the DVB standard in Europe rather than ATSC. There's ongoing testing of a new version called DVB-I which allows for live broadcast TV over 5G. It's just a case of waiting for news on the finalisation of the specification and an official rollout. Perhaps that is the endgame goal for us over here, just need to wait a few years.
In Washington DC television market, all the ATSC 3.0 stations are on a relatively unimportant PBS television station WHUT channel 33.
Sorry, but grandma is MUCH more vocal about the rabbit ears not working then anyone asking for AVC, and when her 20 year old TV stops working because of the switch to AVC you better believe the stations will hear about it.
That's fundamentally the problem, the broadcasters won't switch until noone complains, and there is consumer hardware that doesn't support AVC, so we're all stuck.
Even though I'm not a big TV watcher the second I noticed anything I'm going to find out where and start speaking up because while I don't watch TV that much anymore I know a lot of people that do. This is going to cause some pretty big issues with all the people without current tvs, isn't it? And yeah, I'm also not playing with a home run box.
IMHO, we should support ASTC1 codec evolution (ie. transport of AVC, HEVC, VVC, and maybe AV1 once that’s got a proper NAL/PES-friendly broadcast format). We (as broadcasters) should keep some level of MPEG2 video alive, perhaps as a slate/message board/channel guide on the .1 primary, but explore new things on the .2’s and so forth. Broadcasters have done exactly zero innovation until the A3SA got its act together (sort of), but I feel like ATSC3 is basically “streaming webpages” that almost nobody wants/gives a shit about. Then there’s DRM.
This way (ATSC3) lies degenerate market and technological madness.
@@antonkapela6784 Broadcasters will do what will make them money. While moving to a new codec means they can fit more content, it has to be balanced with the fact that you have to buy new equipment (REALLY expensive) and that you're going to tick off alot of people since you're basically forcing THEM to buy new equipment.
It's a catch 22 situation really, and there's no way out of it, other than time. You simply wait 'long enough' for your audience to upgrade to hardware that supports the new format, and then switch.
Or you lobby the government and get THEM to pay for nearly everything like with the move to ATSC where the government was on the hook for ALOT of 'free' ATSC boxes.
ATSC 1.0 devices should be made with better CPUs and should be upgradable using software updates to support new codecs. People shouldn't have to continuously buy new devices. That being said, I don't think you can watch RUclips anymore on an iMac G3, so why should ATSC 1.0 devices from the same era be required to work with ATSC 1.0 broadcasts today?
@@WNYOverTheAir To be frank, that position is not reasonable. TVs are made with VERY small profit margins, the CPUs they include are JUST ENOUGH to get the functionality they need to include. You can't just through more powerful hardware in a TV hoping that whatever next comes down the pipe can be covered. And lets not forget that the decoding is NOT done in software on these devices, it is almost always specialized hardware made specifically for decoding whatever codes are required to be decoded. You can't use, for example, hardware dedicated to decoding x264 to decode h265 in the future, it just doesn't work that way.
We will ALWAYS have this problem to be frank, there's no way around it. As better codecs are developed that require more computing power we will need to upgrade hardware, a TVs are things people don't want to upgrade every year or two, so you'll always have laggards that hold back moves to better codes.
ATSC 3.0 is Not living up to the Hype.
Got a couple of questions.
1 -- If the TV was Cable Ready, that would mean it TV can decode MPEG4?
2 -- Did any of your TVs decode non-MPEG2 streams?
1. I would assume so.
2. No. ATSC 1.0 uses MPEG-2 Transport Stream (MPEG-2 Part 1) for data delivery. You can encapsulate whatever codec you want with MPEG-2 Transport Stream. Changing the codec used in ATSC 1.0 is one thing, but changing the structure of the way the data is sent is another.
@@WNYOverTheAir I missed the part about the Eugene OR station sending other CODECs in their stream. It would be interesting if any TV could decode it.
It's like it that we forgot about the people who don't upgrade their dang TV every 3 years, there are literally people that can go a decade without buying a new TV.
I even went almost a decade without getting a new TV, and I only got a new TV for the streaming services I paid for.
Also you got to realize is that the older generation of people can't understand the point of a set-top box like a homerun and nor do they want to deal with a converter box if they don't have to.
I get what you're saying, but most TVs made in the past 10 years should be able to decode AVC video sent on an ATSC 1.0 broadcast. Also, AVC came out in 2004. This isn't something brand new, it's been around for quite some time.
I'm still using a 30 inch CRT TV I got for free.
Great video. Did not know a lot of this
What other client apps work with atsc 3.0 audio?
As far as I'm aware, only Channels for HDHomeRun, the Channels Server software, and corresponding client app for Channels Server support Dolby AC-4.
thanks! You are awesome@@WNYOverTheAir
That might explain why we lost some channels
Thanks for the information!
How do old hdtv boxes and TVs decode hevc, vvc or other higher cpu intensive codecs? I thought mpeg2 was part of the atsc 1.0 spec.
MPEG-2 Part 2 (H.262) and AVC (H.264) are part of the ATSC 1.0 spec. Unless old TV boxes and TVs support firmware updates, they will probably never support newer codecs. And like you said, newer codecs are more cpu intensive, which means many of these devices couldn't handle the more complex algorithms. While at a technical level ATSC 1.0 could send HEVC (as shown in the video), or other codecs like AV1 or VVC, doing so would make decoding the video portion nearly impossible for anyone with a TV or TV box that only has codec support for what is outlined in the ATSC 1.0 spec. This is why (like mentioned in the video), I prefer gateway devices like the HDHomeRun.
@WNYOverTheAir ;
I prefer gateway devices too ...
But the frustratung downside is, at least for the ATSC 3.0 broadcast standard. There were no specifications written into the standard to officially make gateway devices compatible with receiving DRM encryption.
Therefore leaving mfrs. like SiliconDust to essentially have to invent their own method for handling DRM on their HDHR. And then try to get approval of it from the "A3SA."
An absolutely horrible and "foot-dragging" organization to deal with I understand. ....
I know, that's the issue. This is another reason why DRM sucks! What the A3SA is doing with SiliconDust right now is uncalled for.
The situation (with ATSC3) is absolutely unacceptable. Why I launched my own station as an elaborate art project & standards-based protocol protest. All neatly supported by the 1A (but I still keep the .1 as MPEG2 video to appear to care about ATSC1 compliance).
I love this! Keep it up! Maybe in the future you could add a 6K or 8K subchannel using VVC/H.266 (albeit, highly compressed). You could show the world that these insane resolutions are possible with ATSC 1.0! Same goes with audio. There’s no reason why 7.1.4 isn’t possible with ATSC 1.0 either.
Wow. All this tech talk to watch free TV. They are going to kill what little broadcast TV remains.
Support WNY Over The Air on Patreon for only $1 or join for free: www.patreon.com/wnyovertheair
Since these newer codecs work over ATSC 1.0, I really don't see any point in ATSC 3.0. Sure, it had some extra features and it supposed to work better with portable TVs, but this DRM thing is a deal breaker. Mr. Rogers fought so we could record television programming without specially licensed equipment. I will not buy such a thing. I don't even like smart TVs. I don't want special interests spying on how I use my TV. I'll buy a computer monitor and use that first.
The big thing is that they get to encrypt the TV signal and use DRM and control whether or not you can record to watch at a later time and a bunch of stuff like that. It is not about making it better for the public,
I have to giggle at my regional ion stations. Every instance carries eight channels. While it's theoretically "complete" pictures, these aren't images I want to watch. The presentation is flat -- even to my aged eyes.
We are AVC on CW feeds. It is definitely better
I'm sure the 20 percent of the public that still occasionally watch OTA television broadcasts will be upset by this.
I do watch OTA TV some of the time. For folks on a very limited budget, it is a great thing.
I watch the first 15 minutes of the local news on ATSC 1.0 OTA stations (after that is garbage 'personal interest' stories). Sports programming on it seems to be better than on streaming, too. I watched the Super Bowl on OTA, it looked great.
People cut the cord with cable, then they realize antenna television is garbage, then they try streaming, and they release they are paying more than they did with cable
So whec didn’t get on the 3.0 because they refused a sub channel?
From what I understand Hubbard (owner of WHEC) didn't want to participate in the WUHF lighthouse at all.
Is that the same reason WNED is not on 3.0?
From what I understand, yes. Same reason as Hubbard.
It’s so sad that both ATSC 3.0 feeds have to initiate so far north of the viewing areas of WNY. As you might know I’m in the Oatka Valley. It’s super hard to get any tv reliably especially when WPXJ moved to Cowlesville. The ideal situation would’ve been to put both the Rochester and Buffalo feeds on the tower in Pavilion or even in Wethersfield giving each market a fair chance of reception. 😢😪
I know the area well. Hopefully broadcasters will implement ATSC 3.0 PLPs with very robust modulation and code rates and/or Single Frequency Networks to make reception incredibly easy and stable. There’s no reason why cell sites should out perform the reach of broadcast sites!
Congress needs to pass a bill to make these stations broadcast with apps. We no longer need over the air broadcasting. It seems that the stations would want to do this in order to have a bigger audience. A bigger audience means bigger revenue.
I disagree. OTA TV needs to be a thing that those on a very limited budget can watch. They need to just scrap ATSC-3.0 and all the encryption and DRM BS and go back to ATSC-1.0. It wasn't boken so why in God's name did they feel the need to "fix it"
@@kensmith5694 Along with this is that the streaming environment is a total mess right now; too many streaming channels chasing a limited amount of content. Let the media companies who created the streaming mess sort themselves out (consolidations or bankruptcies), then see if ATSC 3.0 would be viable or just stick with ATSC 1.0 and any upgrades as needed (or if possible) to improve it for OTA customers. The way ATSC 3.0 is being manipulated right now I can't see it as remaining viable in the future.
You know, if you need a real old ATSC 1 decoders, stop by in Sherman NY. I still have several real old boxes in the garage. Never opened!!!!
DE N2JYG
Call book address should be right.