“It didn’t advance the main story….” Guys, this is why we say pay attention. So much of so many episodes is placed there to set up later events. Also, this is a friggin’ sci-fi show that is making you discuss some pretty heavy topics. JMS is an amazing writer
Hey, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. This is their FIRST TIME watching these episodes. They have so much enthusiasm for the story, the characters, everything. Don't douse their enthusiasm and give them a chance to revisit each episode again and again. I promise you, they will catch it and figure it all out. Moreover, I know for a fact I didn't catch everything when I watched it my first time, my third time; even my fifth time. The subtleties in JMS' writing are incredible and the story is written so tightly. Therefore...to quote Robert from Season 4, episode 2 of Star Trek TNG...."Let him [them] dream." We can all appreciate fellow sci-fi lovers regardless of series, acuity level, or the level of analysis. Just seeing these guys all excited gets me feeling excited that they can enjoy something I consider to be one of my most favorite series just as much as me. That's the true magic here!
One of the most amazing things about this episode to me is the fact that JMS is an avowed atheist, and yet this is one of the most powerful affirmations of faith I've ever seen on film. This is a non story arc, stand alone episode, but this is definitely one of my favorite eps of the entire show.
Thats why i prefer B5 to ST when i really think about it... JMS, while like Rodenberry is an Atheist, JMS understands that no matter how advanced we get... religion isnt going any where. The other thing is JMS also understand that religious belief, faith, etc isnt actually a bad thing... A human future without religion is unrealistic. Its nice as an Agnostic seeing sci fi that takes a more middle ground stance on it, ultimately does it really matter that religion exists 100's of years in the future or now, that people cling to faith in times of trouble? nope, if it makes you a better person in some way then who cares what it is. To quote a character from one of the other shows these guys have been reacting too... "Religions are grand lofty ideals, religious followers... now thats another story".
@@NZBigfoot At some level religious people will exist. I believe as humanity advances religion will continue to decline. How important do you think religion will be if humanity is around in 1000 years?
This episode is one of my favorites for asking some very profound questions about the nature of the soul and of faith while not offering any easy answers for the audience. Plus, it guest stars the fantastic Brad Dourif, who would go on to play Grima Wormtongue in _The Lord of the Rings,_ among many, _many_ other roles.
Theo was one of my favorite background characters. One of the few who could tell Sheridan off that he would listen to. In that brief interaction at the end, Theo rather forcefully confronted Sheridan with a choice of two paths, the one of forgiveness Theo chose or the dark festering bitterness of unforgiveness that the pre-mind wiped Malcolm chose. Forgiveness is about releasing a bondage on your own soul; removing a festering foreign object before the infection spreads. Forgiveness does not remove the need for justice nor protection nor presume reconciliation or restoration is required or even possible. Forgiveness is not about forgoing punishment or justice or consequences. It's not about remaining in a dangerous situation or denying that something happened. It's not about forgetting it. It's about evicting a malevolent presence from our emotions to allow healing so we can sleep peacefully at night without constantly being in a stressed fight or flight mode obsessing over what happened.
One of my favorite non-story arc episodes of the series. Along with being a big nerd, Straczynski studied religion in his life as well. I like how he combines the science and faith. Later on in the series he has a great quote about the two in one's life.
I love this episode because it expands on the established universe in B5. The mindwipe stuff was already pretty disturbing when the concept was introduced earlier in the series and glad it was fleshed out more.
I remember seeing this when it aired in the 90's and being moved by Brad Dourif's performance. He was already becoming pretty well known at the time but it was still a few years before "The Lord of the Rings." It's one of the better standalone episodes of the entire series and a personal favorite.
Brad Dourif is in everything, and usually a psycho. He's Piter de Vries in the 1984 Dune, and had an episode on one of the Trek series along similar lines. His typecasting is practically a spoiler.
Lyta's gills were placed there to allow her to be in the Vorlom atmosphere with Kosh without her needing to wear the respirator gear as has been seen in prior episodes. She touched Kosh's mind, and that made her special to him, and then she went to them.They've taken her in. Gotta hand it to the actor playing Brother Theo when delivering the last rites/pardon. So heartfelt, real. Never fails to bring tears.
Great reactions. This is an amazing episode. Brad Dourif did played Wormtongue. He was also the voice of Chucky. My favorite Brad Spirit wad Doc Cochran on HBO Deadwood series.
12:40 I agree with many who have said even though J. Michael Straczynski is an atheist, his writing treats the religious subject matter more respectfully than most live action science fiction. This scene is an example of that. The story of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane is a great story with a beautiful message magnificently told by Brother Edward. I'm not religious but I feel everyone can take away something away from that scene.
I like you guys calling out Sheridan's initial reaction to the guy that killed Edward. I think even Sheridan gets that about himself, but we've all been in situations with high tension or emotion and it gets the better of us. He really liked Brother Edward, and as a miltiary man his mission was to save Edward. That mission was a failure. Personally, while on paper the idea of a mindwipe sounds like a good idea... I don't think it's the right way to go. If we ever had the means to do that, I think it would be terrible. A person guilty of a crime should have to live with that. If you're a rapist, or a murderer, you should absoltuely face an appropriate level of punishment, and from there, depending on how long you serve, rehabilitation and brought back into society in a positive way, if possible. Some criminals are Dhamer types who do it because they're just sick monsters, but others are crimes of passion or really dumb life choices. Things have to be addressed, but victims need justice, and the person whwo committed the crime must not ever harm again.
For me and for many people this is one of the best episodes of B5. Brad Dourif does an absolutely stellar performance in this episode and it has so many different concepts and layers in it. I have rewatched it many times and usually each time I see or notice something new or different that changes or enhances the episode. It also sets up the season really well with the theme of self-sacrifice.
One of the themes of the show is what do you believe in and what are you willing to sacrifice for what you believe. Even though the storyline about Brother Edward doesn’t advance the main storyline, it does speak to this overall theme.
A comnent from behind the scenes- JMS had planned this episode for S2, but before filming started, a fan posted on a Usenet group "I think it would make a good story to have a mind wipe come back as a priest or something" Warner Brothers was scared that they would have to deal with a copyright issue, so they threw on the brakes. Some time later, JMS ran into the fan in Great Britain who wrote the suggestion- the guy was mortified to find out he had stopped making this episode, and quickly signed a disposition that allowed the episode go forward
Brad Dourif is not only Wormtongue, but also an Oscar laureate for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, having also earned the Golden Globe for that role... he played many such disturbed characters and actually played a very similar one in Star Trek Voyager...
Not sure which episode it was, but G'kar has gill implants. With Kosh's quarters being in the alien sector where humans usually need breathing masks it makes sense for Lyta having them as well. Breathing masks need to be refuelled/recharged occasionally. Having gill implants makes her new job a little easier.
JMS defends the mindwipe approach with a couple of arguments, none of which won me over. Except for one: if the trial gave a guilty veredict and the defendant were innocent, at least with a mindwipe there would be a chance to revert at least part of the damage done.
I'm not sure if JMS is so much defending it as playing Devil's Advocate. Interesting question about restoring the old personality would be what happens to the new one; would that be equivalent to killing one innocent personality to restore the original innocent one? Personally, the problem I have with the mind wipe is about the treatment of the new personality - they're effectively a slave and are being punished for for a crime they didn't commit.
@@chrism7395 I think that JMS considers the new, artificial, personality, as a disposable resource. It was certainly how the heroes treated Talia's nice personality. But I like your comment on slavery of the new personality. You could argue that, once it's in place, the person is free to do as they choose, with the certainitythat it'd be something good to society. But in the end, once you built the personality that way, what choices does it have. What latitude should exist inthe creation of this new personality? These are not rethorical questions. Sooner or later (sooner) we'll have autonomous AIs, whose only checks will be those we put on them. We need to start discussing NOW what those will be, so they are both safe to us and fair to them.
Well, they did have Talia check the mind of a person sentenced to mindwipe before they did it, saying it was a necessary part of the proceedings. Ok thats after they have been found guilty, but I'd think if a telepath found they were innocent there would be something they could do. But also telepathy can be used in court if the defendant is willing and if you were innocent and faced with mindwipe if you were found guilty I'd think most, if not all, people would allow the telepath to check them
A very good question - are people seeking justice, or vengeance? If the 'person' who did the atrocity was replaced with a new person who would serve the greater good, is that not sufficient? As delenn and garibaldi talked about, an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth can leave everyone blind and toothless.
This would have been a perfect episode to react to around Easter wouldn't it?... ;-) I was raised Catholic, but one thing that astounded me about this episode is how it reframed Easter. For all my school years, they dwelt on the Stations Of The Cross, all the suffering and indignities. Here, it's all about the courage of the choice to endure it for the sake of others and honestly, if I was still a believer, I would watch this on Easter 100 times before watching Mel Gibson's JC: The Snuff Movie. It makes so much sense for it to be the cornerstone of Brother Edward's faith. Even without the religious aspect of the story, I love how it provokes so many questions about forgiveness, justice, atonement... I would say that it is one of my all time favourite episodes of TV of any series, which is somewhat odd because for the most part, I don't tend to think of B5 episodes as distinct. This is almost like something from an anthology series like the Twilight Zone or Black Mirror, performed with B5 characters and as such can almost stand alone in a way that many episodes of a show like B5 generally can't. I've been waiting for you guys to react to this since discovering that a number of you are deeply Christian, and you didn't disappoint. Bet you weren't expecting an episode you could talk about with your priest!
Not every episode plays a role in the story arc, and even the most frivolous seeming episode can contain things that are important later. Imagine a show that rewards you for paying attention lol.
It's worth mentioning that my mother is a very religious woman, buut couldn't give two figs for science fiction. Thiss is the only science fiction product that I ever showed her, in my entire life.
Brad Dourif usually plays such creeps... Seeing him play against the type was great and I really liked his character. Unfortunately even JMS typecast him.
A very interesting topic about capital punishment & an alternative option. Personally I don't believe in capital punishment as it prevents the offender the opportunity to repent & make amends for their crime. But I also don't believe the truly evil should live life in jail so this is a really good option. I heard of an American who committed murder, managed to escape to Spain (IIRC) in his late 20's where he repented. He lived the rest of his life (78) trying to make up for his crime by helping children & was very highly regarded in the community for working hard & spending his money at night to run centers to help troubled kids right up to his death which would not have happened if sentenced to death or rotted in jail. {Like, Comment, Share}
It certainly is one of those topics where one has to balance the value of a life vs whether people can be redeemed. I could imagine a person doing a single murder perhaps feeling the need to make up for it. But I think those who move into multiple deaths kind of pass the redemption option and keeping them about on death row or in prison is a waste of resources. Some actions break the human social contract too much.
What's scary about this episode is we're not too far off from this technology. Probably within a couple of decades we'll have a crude version of the mindwipe technology.
Sounds like the mindwipe is the same as death penalty. The guy is dead, his body is walking around. Like nowdays when someone is braindead. The person is dead, but the body is still alive.
It has been most of a century since Jesus would have been arrested in Germany, ;) That was a fitting curse considering you can't pronounce the English version of the place he was actually arrested in.
This is a great episode. It makes you think on so many levels If you're against the death penalty then how is death of personality better? Are you still not killing the person? Do we trust the Psi-corp and government to make a new personality? Is making a new personality that is basically subservient a good thing? Do they have free will? Then you have pro-death penalty Garabaldi still be willing to try and save the guy. Realizing that he didn't deserve what happened. No easy answers here.
It brings up interesting thoughts. If you kill the personality, then you could argue that you did in fact kill the individual, so what is the really the difference of ending the life? You just have a warm body walking around. The new personality is condemned to community service, for a crime that didn't commit, so why is it being punished? (Likely the best thing to do would be to also have cosmetic surgery to avoid distressing the victims or their families....as well as the new personality) It also brings the question of morality into it as far as the use of the new personality. What if the personality is damaged, what if the criminal was given a lobotomy and remained useful enough for community work that others don't want to do? You are essentially creating a slave labor force. You better hope the system is no corrupt or incompetent. This really brings up the thoughts of what makes an individual who they are, and what is the soul?
My one issue with this fantastic episode is that I don't think they would mindwipe the guy at the end, who only killed ONE person, and did it for that kind of reason. It seemed more reasonable that mindwipes were reserved for serial killers, not a completely understandable one-off who is otherwise not dangerous to society.
Not only that, but that "The Shadow War" is only pew-pew against spider ships. But then, deeper understanding can only come once you've seen the whole thing, possibly a few times.
The question is can you ever reach redemption for your horrible doings when you even don't know about and just kind of artificially programmed to "redemption". Such a mindfuck... literally
This one IS mostly filler I will grant you but its some damn good filling if you ask me. Brad Dourif (as always) is just ouststanding and its a really interesting story that brings up some really difficult ethical questions. If we had the technology/ability to carry out this kind of sentence for serious crimes in real life, WOULD it be preferable to straight up execution? Ethically is it any better really? Is it actually any different at all when you get right down to it? Youre still essentially 'killing' the person or is their soul still the same (if there is such a thing) and so on... makes you think (which B5 is really good at doing!)
If they had this tech in the modern day they would be using it on unruly children in public schools, people who said things the people in power disagree with and people who don't push the like button on R Knights content. So, some bad and some good.
Never really liked this as it is very detached from the general plot of the show, but as a single episode, this does raise a lot of good questions... The thing that sets B5 apart from a lot of the shows back then was the fact that the people are "real people" with their faults and shortcomings... And they are not some spit shined people who have never had a bad thought in their lives. You can relate to these characters in this show and that is so excellent!
Third message: This is, I think, the high mark of B5, but there's a real contender in a later S3 episode, "Late Delivery from Avalon". JMS was on fire with those two.
The Vorlons can put a part of themself into other races ,so they can see and hear what going on elsewhere in the galaxy. In this shot he was removing part of himself from her..Lyta Alexander a sixth generation telepath(this was greatly increase by the Vorlons for the upcoming war). I could tell you more . I just wanted to sit the record right,
It doesn't entertain the concept of good and evil. If you look at the mind wipe with that in play then the people might be without the memories but he will still be evil.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
“It didn’t advance the main story….” Guys, this is why we say pay attention. So much of so many episodes is placed there to set up later events.
Also, this is a friggin’ sci-fi show that is making you discuss some pretty heavy topics. JMS is an amazing writer
Hey, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. This is their FIRST TIME watching these episodes. They have so much enthusiasm for the story, the characters, everything. Don't douse their enthusiasm and give them a chance to revisit each episode again and again. I promise you, they will catch it and figure it all out. Moreover, I know for a fact I didn't catch everything when I watched it my first time, my third time; even my fifth time. The subtleties in JMS' writing are incredible and the story is written so tightly. Therefore...to quote Robert from Season 4, episode 2 of Star Trek TNG...."Let him [them] dream." We can all appreciate fellow sci-fi lovers regardless of series, acuity level, or the level of analysis. Just seeing these guys all excited gets me feeling excited that they can enjoy something I consider to be one of my most favorite series just as much as me. That's the true magic here!
One of the most amazing things about this episode to me is the fact that JMS is an avowed atheist, and yet this is one of the most
powerful affirmations of faith I've ever seen on film. This is a non story arc, stand alone episode, but this is definitely one of my
favorite eps of the entire show.
Thats why i prefer B5 to ST when i really think about it... JMS, while like Rodenberry is an Atheist, JMS understands that no matter how advanced we get... religion isnt going any where. The other thing is JMS also understand that religious belief, faith, etc isnt actually a bad thing... A human future without religion is unrealistic. Its nice as an Agnostic seeing sci fi that takes a more middle ground stance on it, ultimately does it really matter that religion exists 100's of years in the future or now, that people cling to faith in times of trouble? nope, if it makes you a better person in some way then who cares what it is.
To quote a character from one of the other shows these guys have been reacting too... "Religions are grand lofty ideals, religious followers... now thats another story".
@@NZBigfoot It's actually why I quit Orville. I'm not paying to be preached to by atheists.
@@NZBigfoot
At some level religious people will exist. I believe as humanity advances religion will continue to decline. How important do you think religion will be if humanity is around in 1000 years?
This episode is one of my favorites for asking some very profound questions about the nature of the soul and of faith while not offering any easy answers for the audience. Plus, it guest stars the fantastic Brad Dourif, who would go on to play Grima Wormtongue in _The Lord of the Rings,_ among many, _many_ other roles.
Brad Dourif is a great character actor.
The Exorcist III, great role there too.
This episode hits a lot harder for me in 2024. The technology for a mindwipe is not that far away.
Brad Dourif had a similar storyline on Star Trek Voyager. He was as great in that, as he was in Babylon 5.
Kosh once said that Vorlons would use environment suits so they don't get recognized, not for safety reasons. At least, not for the Vorlons' safety.
The actors did get married in real life, but later in the show.
Theo was one of my favorite background characters. One of the few who could tell Sheridan off that he would listen to. In that brief interaction at the end, Theo rather forcefully confronted Sheridan with a choice of two paths, the one of forgiveness Theo chose or the dark festering bitterness of unforgiveness that the pre-mind wiped Malcolm chose.
Forgiveness is about releasing a bondage on your own soul; removing a festering foreign object before the infection spreads. Forgiveness does not remove the need for justice nor protection nor presume reconciliation or restoration is required or even possible. Forgiveness is not about forgoing punishment or justice or consequences. It's not about remaining in a dangerous situation or denying that something happened. It's not about forgetting it. It's about evicting a malevolent presence from our emotions to allow healing so we can sleep peacefully at night without constantly being in a stressed fight or flight mode obsessing over what happened.
Very, very well said.
One of my favorite non-story arc episodes of the series. Along with being a big nerd, Straczynski studied religion in his life as well. I like how he combines the science and faith. Later on in the series he has a great quote about the two in one's life.
I loved when Sinclair did his line up to represent all the different religions of Earth, and the first up was an atheist.
I love this episode because it expands on the established universe in B5. The mindwipe stuff was already pretty disturbing when the concept was introduced earlier in the series and glad it was fleshed out more.
I remember seeing this when it aired in the 90's and being moved by Brad Dourif's performance. He was already becoming pretty well known at the time but it was still a few years before "The Lord of the Rings." It's one of the better standalone episodes of the entire series and a personal favorite.
This is one of my favorite "filler" episodes in science fiction series. It fleshes out the mindwipe concept which extremely disturbing to begin with.
Bonus info! Episode directed by Adam Nimoy, son of Leonard Nimoy, AKA Mr Spock, one of Sci Fi's most morally complex challenging characters.
Yes, this is an episode that makes you think about punishments and the morality involved in such. THere are no easy answers.
One of the most interesting and important things about sci-fi is that it can ask difficult questions but isn't required to deliver "the answer".
Brad Dourif is in everything, and usually a psycho. He's Piter de Vries in the 1984 Dune, and had an episode on one of the Trek series along similar lines. His typecasting is practically a spoiler.
I loved him in Deadwood
Brad is a solid character actor. So great in everything he has done.
@@RKnights Oh yeah! Almost forgot about that, and I just watched it recently. lol. Such a wholesome character.
Lyta's gills were placed there to allow her to be in the Vorlom atmosphere with Kosh without her needing to wear the respirator gear as has been seen in prior episodes. She touched Kosh's mind, and that made her special to him, and then she went to them.They've taken her in. Gotta hand it to the actor playing Brother Theo when delivering the last rites/pardon. So heartfelt, real. Never fails to bring tears.
G'Kar also has gills for such a purpose. Apparently it's not all that uncommon.
Great reactions. This is an amazing episode.
Brad Dourif did played Wormtongue. He was also the voice of Chucky. My favorite Brad Spirit wad Doc Cochran on HBO Deadwood series.
Thanks for the info!
We let Brad Dourif act because we are scared of what he would do if we didn't.
12:40 I agree with many who have said even though J. Michael Straczynski is an atheist, his writing treats the religious subject matter more respectfully than most live action science fiction. This scene is an example of that. The story of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane is a great story with a beautiful message magnificently told by Brother Edward. I'm not religious but I feel everyone can take away something away from that scene.
I like you guys calling out Sheridan's initial reaction to the guy that killed Edward. I think even Sheridan gets that about himself, but we've all been in situations with high tension or emotion and it gets the better of us. He really liked Brother Edward, and as a miltiary man his mission was to save Edward. That mission was a failure.
Personally, while on paper the idea of a mindwipe sounds like a good idea... I don't think it's the right way to go. If we ever had the means to do that, I think it would be terrible. A person guilty of a crime should have to live with that. If you're a rapist, or a murderer, you should absoltuely face an appropriate level of punishment, and from there, depending on how long you serve, rehabilitation and brought back into society in a positive way, if possible. Some criminals are Dhamer types who do it because they're just sick monsters, but others are crimes of passion or really dumb life choices. Things have to be addressed, but victims need justice, and the person whwo committed the crime must not ever harm again.
Mindwipe as a solution? Sounds like a Black Mirror episode in the making! Let's hope we never reach that point in real life.
@@RKnights They pretty much did that as an episode. I won't say which one in case you plan to watch the show.
This also contains one of the sci-fi elements that makes me giggle the most. In the future… Google searches will take 4 hours.
The funny thing is that this was probably considered fast back when it aired
One of my favorite episodes!
For me and for many people this is one of the best episodes of B5. Brad Dourif does an absolutely stellar performance in this episode and it has so many different concepts and layers in it. I have rewatched it many times and usually each time I see or notice something new or different that changes or enhances the episode. It also sets up the season really well with the theme of self-sacrifice.
One of the themes of the show is what do you believe in and what are you willing to sacrifice for what you believe. Even though the storyline about Brother Edward doesn’t advance the main storyline, it does speak to this overall theme.
A comnent from behind the scenes-
JMS had planned this episode for S2, but before filming started, a fan posted on a Usenet group "I think it would make a good story to have a mind wipe come back as a priest or something"
Warner Brothers was scared that they would have to deal with a copyright issue, so they threw on the brakes. Some time later, JMS ran into the fan in Great Britain who wrote the suggestion- the guy was mortified to find out he had stopped making this episode, and quickly signed a disposition that allowed the episode go forward
Poor Brad Dourif. Between Chucky, LOTR, and Exorcist 3, man was stamped with Villain typecast.
Which makes it especially nice to see him not playing a villain here.
@@Karajorma technically, an amnesiac villain?
@@zvimur He wasn't a villain, just the person he used to be. So basically a couple of steps outside of his comfort zone
Brad Dourif is not only Wormtongue, but also an Oscar laureate for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, having also earned the Golden Globe for that role... he played many such disturbed characters and actually played a very similar one in Star Trek Voyager...
Not sure which episode it was, but G'kar has gill implants. With Kosh's quarters being in the alien sector where humans usually need breathing masks it makes sense for Lyta having them as well. Breathing masks need to be refuelled/recharged occasionally. Having gill implants makes her new job a little easier.
Way back in the pilot, I believe.
Brad Dourif,Hollywood's favourite serial killer,the voice of Chucky himself,was incredible in this episode..
On the what is Talia, that makes me think of a particular conversation between her and Garibaldi. I can't say more, but its a unique conversation
Brother Edward is played by Brad Dourf, who you probably know as Wormtongue from Lord of the Rings, or failing that, your nightmares.
JMS defends the mindwipe approach with a couple of arguments, none of which won me over. Except for one: if the trial gave a guilty veredict and the defendant were innocent, at least with a mindwipe there would be a chance to revert at least part of the damage done.
I'm not sure if JMS is so much defending it as playing Devil's Advocate.
Interesting question about restoring the old personality would be what happens to the new one; would that be equivalent to killing one innocent personality to restore the original innocent one?
Personally, the problem I have with the mind wipe is about the treatment of the new personality - they're effectively a slave and are being punished for for a crime they didn't commit.
@@chrism7395 I think that JMS considers the new, artificial, personality, as a disposable resource. It was certainly how the heroes treated Talia's nice personality.
But I like your comment on slavery of the new personality.
You could argue that, once it's in place, the person is free to do as they choose, with the certainitythat it'd be something good to society.
But in the end, once you built the personality that way, what choices does it have. What latitude should exist inthe creation of this new personality?
These are not rethorical questions. Sooner or later (sooner) we'll have autonomous AIs, whose only checks will be those we put on them. We need to start discussing NOW what those will be, so they are both safe to us and fair to them.
Well, they did have Talia check the mind of a person sentenced to mindwipe before they did it, saying it was a necessary part of the proceedings. Ok thats after they have been found guilty, but I'd think if a telepath found they were innocent there would be something they could do. But also telepathy can be used in court if the defendant is willing and if you were innocent and faced with mindwipe if you were found guilty I'd think most, if not all, people would allow the telepath to check them
Really fine observations by Ray on this one! I completely agree! This is perhaps the best non-arc episode of the entire series.
One of my favourite episodes. Hands down! Brad Dourif….need I say more?
How did I feel? Well, exactly like you, guys! You actually pretty much nailed it in discussion.
A very good question - are people seeking justice, or vengeance? If the 'person' who did the atrocity was replaced with a new person who would serve the greater good, is that not sufficient? As delenn and garibaldi talked about, an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth can leave everyone blind and toothless.
This is one of my favorite episodes of the series. What fascinates me is how great JMS is great with writing religion while being an atheist himself.
This would have been a perfect episode to react to around Easter wouldn't it?... ;-)
I was raised Catholic, but one thing that astounded me about this episode is how it reframed Easter. For all my school years, they dwelt on the Stations Of The Cross, all the suffering and indignities. Here, it's all about the courage of the choice to endure it for the sake of others and honestly, if I was still a believer, I would watch this on Easter 100 times before watching Mel Gibson's JC: The Snuff Movie. It makes so much sense for it to be the cornerstone of Brother Edward's faith.
Even without the religious aspect of the story, I love how it provokes so many questions about forgiveness, justice, atonement... I would say that it is one of my all time favourite episodes of TV of any series, which is somewhat odd because for the most part, I don't tend to think of B5 episodes as distinct. This is almost like something from an anthology series like the Twilight Zone or Black Mirror, performed with B5 characters and as such can almost stand alone in a way that many episodes of a show like B5 generally can't.
I've been waiting for you guys to react to this since discovering that a number of you are deeply Christian, and you didn't disappoint. Bet you weren't expecting an episode you could talk about with your priest!
Not every episode plays a role in the story arc, and even the most frivolous seeming episode can contain things that are important later. Imagine a show that rewards you for paying attention lol.
15:35 @Julian, he is incredible in The Exorcist 3. Excellent film
This series is great for all the amazing guest actors .
He was once a killer, His old personality was erased, the Centary that touched Him was a telepath and reworked His old memories.
A powerful B5 episode.
Brad Dourif is a great actor. Many know him as the voice of Chucky. But I remember him fondly as Doc Cochran from Deadwood.
This episode is in my top 5 overall episodes
Brad Douriff played a killer in the X-files episode Beyond the Sea
Fantastic episode!
It's worth mentioning that my mother is a very religious woman, buut couldn't give two figs for science fiction.
Thiss is the only science fiction product that I ever showed her, in my entire life.
Brad Dourif usually plays such creeps... Seeing him play against the type was great and I really liked his character. Unfortunately even JMS typecast him.
A very interesting topic about capital punishment & an alternative option. Personally I don't believe in capital punishment as it prevents the offender the opportunity to repent & make amends for their crime. But I also don't believe the truly evil should live life in jail so this is a really good option. I heard of an American who committed murder, managed to escape to Spain (IIRC) in his late 20's where he repented. He lived the rest of his life (78) trying to make up for his crime by helping children & was very highly regarded in the community for working hard & spending his money at night to run centers to help troubled kids right up to his death which would not have happened if sentenced to death or rotted in jail. {Like, Comment, Share}
I have issues with capital punishment as well. its a hard topic to discuss. this episode was great for shining a light on the topic
It certainly is one of those topics where one has to balance the value of a life vs whether people can be redeemed. I could imagine a person doing a single murder perhaps feeling the need to make up for it. But I think those who move into multiple deaths kind of pass the redemption option and keeping them about on death row or in prison is a waste of resources. Some actions break the human social contract too much.
What's scary about this episode is we're not too far off from this technology. Probably within a couple of decades we'll have a crude version of the mindwipe technology.
The Volons enhance Her telepathic senses.
Another example of how good B5 stories are...
Sounds like the mindwipe is the same as death penalty.
The guy is dead, his body is walking around.
Like nowdays when someone is braindead.
The person is dead, but the body is still alive.
It has been most of a century since Jesus would have been arrested in Germany, ;) That was a fitting curse considering you can't pronounce the English version of the place he was actually arrested in.
lita has become scary! the justice system - too! 😮
This is a great episode. It makes you think on so many levels
If you're against the death penalty then how is death of personality better? Are you still not killing the person?
Do we trust the Psi-corp and government to make a new personality?
Is making a new personality that is basically subservient a good thing? Do they have free will?
Then you have pro-death penalty Garabaldi still be willing to try and save the guy. Realizing that he didn't deserve what happened.
No easy answers here.
JMS (writer/creator of Babylon 5) is a staunch atheist, yet manages to have a balanced perspective on Religion.
It brings up interesting thoughts. If you kill the personality, then you could argue that you did in fact kill the individual, so what is the really the difference of ending the life? You just have a warm body walking around. The new personality is condemned to community service, for a crime that didn't commit, so why is it being punished? (Likely the best thing to do would be to also have cosmetic surgery to avoid distressing the victims or their families....as well as the new personality)
It also brings the question of morality into it as far as the use of the new personality. What if the personality is damaged, what if the criminal was given a lobotomy and remained useful enough for community work that others don't want to do? You are essentially creating a slave labor force. You better hope the system is no corrupt or incompetent.
This really brings up the thoughts of what makes an individual who they are, and what is the soul?
My one issue with this fantastic episode is that I don't think they would mindwipe the guy at the end, who only killed ONE person, and did it for that kind of reason. It seemed more reasonable that mindwipes were reserved for serial killers, not a completely understandable one-off who is otherwise not dangerous to society.
"How strong is she?" You asked.
You wanted religion in your Sci-Fi. Babylon 5 has got you.
There is a word for the proxy ruler of the Narn...collaborator. It's a very dirty word.
You think the Shadow War is the main story of the show?
Not only that, but that "The Shadow War" is only pew-pew against spider ships. But then, deeper understanding can only come once you've seen the whole thing, possibly a few times.
The question is can you ever reach redemption for your horrible doings when you even don't know about and just kind of artificially programmed to "redemption". Such a mindfuck... literally
This one IS mostly filler I will grant you but its some damn good filling if you ask me. Brad Dourif (as always) is just ouststanding and its a really interesting story that brings up some really difficult ethical questions. If we had the technology/ability to carry out this kind of sentence for serious crimes in real life, WOULD it be preferable to straight up execution? Ethically is it any better really? Is it actually any different at all when you get right down to it? Youre still essentially 'killing' the person or is their soul still the same (if there is such a thing) and so on... makes you think (which B5 is really good at doing!)
"Passing Through Gethsemane"
🎶 But I’m the one who paid for it 🎶 #Ham4B5
He may have been the first one to die
But I’m the one who paid for it
I survived, but I paid for it
If they had this tech in the modern day they would be using it on unruly children in public schools, people who said things the people in power disagree with and people who don't push the like button on R Knights content. So, some bad and some good.
Not "come back for a ritual", Koh informing the command staff about her return is a "ritual" from his perspective. Come on.
Rate all the filler episodes ...Great idea ...this could be Number 1 so far ..
Never really liked this as it is very detached from the general plot of the show, but as a single episode, this does raise a lot of good questions...
The thing that sets B5 apart from a lot of the shows back then was the fact that the people are "real people" with their faults and shortcomings... And they are not some spit shined people who have never had a bad thought in their lives. You can relate to these characters in this show and that is so excellent!
Third message: This is, I think, the high mark of B5, but there's a real contender in a later S3 episode, "Late Delivery from Avalon". JMS was on fire with those two.
The Vorlons can put a part of themself into other races ,so they can see and hear what going on elsewhere in the galaxy. In this shot he was removing part of himself from her..Lyta Alexander a sixth generation telepath(this was greatly increase by the Vorlons for the upcoming war). I could tell you more . I just wanted to sit the record right,
It doesn't entertain the concept of good and evil. If you look at the mind wipe with that in play then the people might be without the memories but he will still be evil.