Pathfinder (2e): Basics of Counteracting
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2024
- The basics of Counteracting in the Pathfinder (2nd Edition) RPG from Paizo!
In this video we examine Counteracting, or the process where one magical effect attempts to negate another.
* This is an updated version of a previously published video. The only difference is I corrected the image used for Counterspell (this video uses the description for Sorcerer's Counterspell when it should have been the Wizard version).
WANT TO SKIP AHEAD?
00:00 Introduction
00:27 Counteracting
03:58 Calculating Modifiers, Levels and DCs
06:41 Example #1: Counterspell
10:58 Example #2: Nondetection vs. Detect Alignment
13:08 Example #3: Frost Brand Greatsword vs. Wall of Fire
15:32 Pop Quiz!
16:58 TL;DR (Summary)
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See here for more great videos on Pathfinder: ruclips.net/p/PLYCDCUfG0xJb5I-wDIezuDkTfbd8k21Km
Want to help support the channel?
Get you name listed at the end of my videos by joining my Patreon :
▶️ www.patreon.com/HowItsPlayed/
Thank me with a cup of coffee!
▶️ ko-fi.com/HowItsPlayed
Great stuff, really thorough explanations.
Homework:
Kobold Counteract DC = 28 (10 + level 11+ expert 4+ Int 3)
Kobold Counteract lvl = 6 (spell level 6)
Kyra Counteract Modifier = 20 (level 11 + expert 4 + Wis 5)
Kyra Conteract Level = 4 (spell level 4)
She will need a critical success, so she needs to exceed by 10 or roll a 20. She will need to roll a 18 or better.
Correct! :)
Great video. Thanks for the clarity. This is the problem with PF. Creating the terms "Counteract DC" and "Counteract Modifier" just adds confusion and pushes people to rummage through the book to figure things out, when it's unnecessary. If they just stated "to counteract a spell you roll adding base Spellcasting Modifier against the Spellcasters DC and compare the level of spells cast to see if it was successful." things would be a lot easier.
PF is a good system with some great mechanics and concepts, but I find that they often tend to over complicate things with unnecessary terms and rules.
Is this a reupload? It’s a nice video, you’re making my gm’ing a lot easier. Thank you very much. Please never stop doing Paizo tutorials.
Yes, the original version used an image of the Sorcerer's version of Counterspell, when it should have been the Wizard version. That's the only difference.
May I humbly say that is an aspect of the rules that could have been streamlined a bit more.
Feeble Mind Counter Act LV:6th DC:28
Remove Curse Counter Act LV:4th +20 to counter act.
Kyra needs a crit success with a 18 or higher to counter act since a success will not do since Feeble Mind is 2 levels higher than Remove Curse.
Correct!
Damn, I forgot about the level difference. I almost got it right after the 5th viewing lol
Ooooh for a second I thought she only needed an 8 since the DC was 28 and Kyra has a modifier of 20. The spell level was 2 higher though.
Thank you again for this amazing resource library!
Hi! Love your videos.
Just a minor note: in Lem's example Nondetection you once call him Ezren, and soon after that you say the cultist attempts a Detect Magic. It's still perfectly understandable though, so you might not want to change that.
Cheers and thanks from the community for your great explanations!
Wow... I have no idea how many times I watched that example while making it, and just had to watch it TWICE more before I noticed those goofs. Congrats on critically succeeding your Perception check! (or I crit failed mine). LOL
I'm noting the mistakes and will correct the next time I need to republish (maybe after the Gamemastery Guide comes out). Thanks for the help!
@@HowItsPlayed Thank you for your kind words, dear sir! Happy to help! ;)
Always great stuff, and especially well this video. Counter acting isn't intuitive but you make it much simpler. Great videos
will have to watch this a few times to have it sinks in. great vid
Man, thanks for the super well explanation. Im super confused and getting overwhelmed by the info dump 😂. Your channel help me GMing 2e much more easier. Thanks!
For the quiz.
Counteract level is 6
Counteract DC = 10+3from int+4expert+11from level, total = 28
Remover dude
Counteract level 4 (spell level)
Counteract mod = +5from wis, +4 expert and +11 level. Total of +20 mod
If he roll crit success (18 or more) for total of 38, he can remove this cursed.
Otherwised nope.
Thanks :D
2 month passed, and i came back here again lol
Nicely done. Thank you.
You're welcome!
Man I have watched this twice and honestly this goes straight into the rule of cool trashbin, it's far too complicated to bother with
I know what you mean. In my games I've gotten to the point where if the counteracting effect is higher than what is being counteracted, I don't bother with any rolls and just call it an automatic success. And if it's close, and I don't want to bother with calculating DCs, I have them roll and as long as they don't roll really low I give it to them. Anything to move the game along.
@@HowItsPlayed Sorry I didn't mean to imply your video is bad, they are GREAT and super valuable. The dense rules surrounding countering are dumb :)
@@jkernodle No worries! I didn't take it that way. :) Counteracting is one of those areas I think they REALLY could have simplified things.
these are great videos
Thanks!
I wanted to say thank you for demystifying a TERRIBLY explained rule. 😀
You are amazing. Really.
Thanks!
The Ghost of Gary Gygax lurks within the PF 2e counteract rules.
Superb
Thanks!
I've just had something come up where a magical potion needs to attempt a counteract check. Infernal Would says 'a spellcaster or ITEM attempting to use healing magic on a creature suffering from Infernal Wound must succeed at a DC21 counteract check or the magic fails to heal the creature'. Creature with this effect is a level 5 (counteract lvl 3) and using a level 3 lesser healing potion (counteract lvl 2). But what would the counteract modifier be for the healing potion? Would you subtract 10 from it's level DC (18 for level 3) and say the potion rolls at a +8?
So any answer on this one ? How to counteract with items ?
Great series of videos. Any chance "Hit Points, Healing,
and Dying" is next?
The 1st fight in the 1st PF2 module (HellknightHill) is fighting a fire and little information is provided but these mechanics seem intended exactly for this. Players try to put out a fire with water. The GM is forced to improvise. In this case, I made the players roll a d20+[Water Amount]+level vs DC 10+[Fire Amount] for a 10x10 area.
Bucket of water amount might be +5 and campfire amount might be +5.
Waterskin amount might be +0 and bonfire amount might be +10.
An experienced opinion would be great. Thanks.
What I don't understand why the non-detection spell is trying to counteract the detect alignment spell and not the other way around.
It would make more sense imho if the one who's doing something actively, rolls the attack.
The way I understand it, is that the onus on rolling goes to the effect that is specifically trying to thwart something else. Detect alignment isn't a counteract spell, and would normally fulfill a function unopposed. Nondetection is a spell made for the express purpose of counteracting, and only functions on occasions when a counteract is necessary, similar to a counterspell.
Very nice video. This has been giving me a headache.
The Kobold:
Counteract Lvl 6
Counteract DC 17
Kyra
Counteract Lvl 4
Counteract Mod 19
She needs a Crit. Success.
Sorry for the headache. I guess it's part of the learning process. :)
You have the Counteract Levels, but might want to take another look at Counteract DC (10+Ability Modifier+Proficiency Bonus)
And Kyra's Counteract Modifier (Ability Modifier+Proficiency Bonus)
You are correct that it requires a Critical Success. But you may want to think about what number has to show on the die for that to happen.
@@HowItsPlayed You're right, my math is all wrong since I forgot to add their levels. Let's see if it adds up now:
Kyra Counteract Mod is (+5 Ability) + (15 proficiency) = 21
Kobold Spell DC is 10 + (+3 Ability) + (15 proficiency) = 28
Kyra needs to roll a 17 or higher, I believe.
@@Meepletlan You almost have it... double-check the math for Kyra's Counteract Modifier.
I'm going to do this without looking, because I'm curious if there are any problems with me thinking about it like this.
The counteract level for Feeblemind is 6, while Remove Curse is 4, so a crit success is required.
Since their level is the same, and they are both expert, then their modifiers are all the same except Remove Curse has a +2 from 20 Wisdom vs 16 Intelligence.
Therefore, comparing them will result in necessary die rolls being 2 lower to be successful, so to crit success vs 10 (which is the starting place for DC stripping away modifiers), you really need to crit against 8. So a die roll of 18.
Is that logic universally good, or am I missing something?
Holy crap I would never have thought of this. Very useful shortcut, once I wrapped my head around it. Only problem I can think of with this is that if they're different levels and/or have different proficiencies, it'd get a lot more complicated to think about, at which point it'd be easier to just calculate it normally
Great video! Thanks!
Question: in your video on perception, those rules saw the actor rolls based on their action. So, Stealth v Perception DC and then Perception v Stealth DC. This seems to be the opposite when the caster of non detection rolled against the person trying to detect them. Did I understand that correctly?
Yes, another vote for Dying, wounded conditions. Thanks!
Yeah, I see what you mean. I think it's fair to say that in general the person performing the action is the one who rolls, but in this case it's a little different because one of the requirements to counteract an effect is you must have a feature or ability that allows you to do so. The Detect Alignment spell does not grant the user the ability to counteract anything. On the other hand, the sole purpose of Nondetection is to grant the ability to counteract things to its user. So Ezren is the one making the roll.
When I was speaking about Stealth and Perception the main thing I wanted to get out of everyone's head was the concept of contested rolls. Because a lot of people are used to making a perception roll to contest a stealth roll, and that's not how it works.
Interesting. Thanks for clarifying that! I appreciate it!
To continue my understanding, the counteract level is what will allow more powerful (i.e. higher level) casters to break through lower level casters. However, only if they have heightened the detect spells to sufficiently high enough level? A 13th level caster who casts a detect spell against a 5th level character, if they heighten the spell to seventh level, cannot be negated by the 5th level caster? If so, wow. That really shifts the ability to defend against magic to a much higher level. Of course, on a practical level, the 9th level caster using a fifth level spell still requires a critical success by the 5th level caster and the DC is around a 26, a tough roll for the 5th level caster who might have a +12.
Again, my thanks!
Awesome video, thanks so much for breaking it down and giving some examples! I was trying to wrap my head round the Elemental Counter cantrip and this really cleared things up!
Quick question, and apologies if you've already answered this question, but with Elemental Counter, can you use a Cantrip to attempt to counter the triggering spell? I'm thinking the answer is no since you don't expend a spell slot when you cast a Cantrip; is that right?
That's correct. Rules as Written, you could not counter with a Cantrip.
@@HowItsPlayed Thanks very much, and thank you for such a speedy reply! What a guy! :D
This video is super confusing lol... but I really liked the quiz right before the summary (and the fact you didn’t give out the answer); I would like to see that in future videos, as it acts as a litmus test on whether the viewer actually learned the concept rather than simply understanding it because they just heard it (and then not being able to recall it at the game table). Great stuff as usual. Cheers 🍻
When counteracting a cantrip like light with darkness spell what spell level do you use for the cantrip?
I know it's been 3 weeks, but cantrips are automatically heightened to the highest level spells you can cast (your level halved, and rounded up)
How does a character know what spell the opposing side is casting?
Is it just automatic if he has the same spell prepared?, is it something you do a check for? and if so is it something that takes a action/reaction to do ?
If you see (or hear) someone casting a spell, and you have it prepared or it's in your repertoire, then you automatically recognize it (no actions needed). Otherwise, you need to make a Recall Knowledge skill check with Arcana, Nature, Occultism, or Religion to identify the spell (see page 305).
I may be overthinking this, but the flavour text and the mechanics of Magic Missile are that it hits automatically. So, if the counterspell fails, then it hits it just doesn't overpower/ counteract it and the enemy's Magic Missile blows through the counterspell?
When you use the counterspell reaction, it uses the spell slot prepared but doesn't actually cast the spell. So in the Magic Missile example, you're not casting Magic Missile to stop the enemy's Magic Missile, you're just using the spell slot to attempt to counterspell.
In my headcanon it's like the Wizard is familiar enough with the tiny details of the Magic Missile spell (since they studied/prepared the same spell that day), so they know exactly what the Hobgoblin is doing as soon as they start casting it, allowing the wizard to react in time and expend energy to counterspell it. They use the studying they did of the spell in their preparations that morning to negate the effect in a fast enough and easy enough way. That's just how I flavor it in my head though :)
Feeblemind with a 28 counteract DC with a counteract level of 6, remove curse with +20 counteract modifier at counteract level 4, she needs to roll an 18 or better to successfully counteract the feeblemind spell
What about Dispel Magic? This triggers a counteract, but can it be used to reverse a perma condition from a spell (like Blindness). My gut says no and you'd need "Restore Senses" as my read is Blindness is now a condition versus spell effect, but perhaps conditions are a type of effect?
Can you counterspells cantrips with cantrips just like that by spending your reaction ? For example, my sorcerer interrupting the goblin's Produce Flame with his own. This feels rather strong
I believe RAI is you can counterspell cantrips but you still need to expend a spell slot to do so, and the counteract level of the attempt is the level of the spell slot used (and not the automatically heightened level of the cantrip).
@@HowItsPlayed So you couldn't counteract cantrips with cantrips. It probably would be too strong that way. Though when another character's life is at play, a spellslot might be worth being used.
So... the DC29 Level 10 Counteract from the Clay Golem is literally impossible for me to beat at party level 8?
question: what if Hobgobbo Casts Magic Missile but Wizard doesnt have Magic Missile prepared or at all?
how do you determine how much you need to heighten your spell to counteract a spell on a success ? I know it work if it is level +1 but how do you determine what this level is ? You can guess from the minimum level of the spell, but what if the spell is heightened ?
At the GM's discretion, an Identify Magic check might inform you what the level of the effect you want to counteract is.
kobold DC
lvl 11 + int 3 + expert 4 + 10 base = 28
cleric bonus
lvl 11 + wis 5 + expert 4 = 20
the spell is 2 above the remove curse, so needs a critical (19+)
For the second example, when the priest casts detect alignment, wouldn't she be the one to make the roll against the PC's DC? I was under the impression the acting party is the one who makes the actual roll, and the passive party provides the DC?
Yeah, this one's a little counter-intuitive. But the way the rules are viewing it, the "acting party" is the one who is using an ability to grant a Counteracting effect. Per the text of Nondetection, it is the ability that counteracts Detect Alignment. Detect Alignment does not. And you cannot make a Counteract Check unless you have an ability that grants it.
@@HowItsPlayed Gotcha! Thanks for clearing that up for me, sir. I intend to start running PF2 soon and your videos have been an immense help in helping me understand the system.
Glad to hear it!
what type of check is, counteracting? is it a skill check or something else?
Weird question, is the base level of a cantrip 1 or 0? I know it's a level 0 spell, but if it's base is 0 you get a heightened cantrip at level 2, and if the base is one you wait 'til level 4
In 2nd edition Cantrips aren't "Level 0". They're just... cantrips; which are a special kind of spell. And they are cast at 1st level and then heighten automatically like any other. So, you'll cast Cantrips as 2nd level spells when you reach 3rd level, as 3rd level spells when you reach 5th, etc.
The easy "Rule of Thumb" is you cast Cantrips at the same level as your highest level spell slot (although this doesn't always work... for example, if you get your spells from an Archetype).
If my math and understanding is correct she'll have to roll 18 or higher, her modifier is +20 (11 level +4 +5) and the bolds dc is 18 making the dc 28 and his spell is 2 levels above her, so she needs a crit success
Ähm sry. After the newest Errata dropped there is something i dont understand. Mutagens Counteract each other. All clear. But what is the Counteract DC? The Item Level of the first Mutagen? So Moderate Juggernaut Mutagen CLevel 3/2=2, DC 18 vs lesser Bestial Mutagen CLevel 1, Mod. +5? So you need to throw a 13 to get the Bestial Mutagens effect?
You can heighten a spell just to increase its counteract level even when it doesn't have a heightened entry?
Yes, any spell can be heightened (cantrips are heightened automatically). The "heightened" entry lists anything that is changed due to heightening besides its level.
@@HowItsPlayed are you sure that's correct? @11:25 I don't think that's possible unless: 1) non-detection is his signature spell or 2) he knows the level 5 version of non-detection (besides the level 3). You can't freely heighten spontaneous spells like in D&D 5e.
mobs CR lvl is 6, CR DC is 28.
clerics CR lvl is 4, CR modifier is 20 .
cleric will need to roll an 18 to counteract cause mobs CR LVL is 2 lvls hire then clerics.
Correct! :)
kobold:
Counteract DC: 28
Counteract lvl: 6
Kyra:
Counteract lvl 4
counteract modifier: +30
😁
One of the things not clear to me is how this applies to monk focus spell 'wholeness of body' ki spell for counteracting poison or disease. Is it just using the Spell Attack DC? I don't suppose you have an example? :)
How I think it works after the video; Spell Attack DC+Roll compared to poison DC. Then resolve based on success/failure guidance and level.
Yes! It would be 1d20 plus the monk's spell attack bonus vs. the poison's DC (which should be included in its stat block). Then you need to compare your counteract level to the poison's. Your's will be the level you cast Wholeness of Body at. The poison's will be half its item level or the level of the creature applying it.... or, if it is caused by a spell, you use its whole spell level. On a success, you remove the poison if its Counteract level is no more than 1 higher than yours. On a Failure, you still remove the poison if it's Counteract Level is lower than yours. On a critical success you remove the poison if its Counteract Level is no more than 3 higher than yours. And on a Critical Failure you fail to remove the poison regardless of its Counteract Level.
Basics4Gamers thanks!!! That’s great clarification and confirmation on how it functions. :)
@@jwmerrow2144 You're very welcome. Happy Gaming!
Is this still relevant after the remaster or have the rules for counteracting changed?
I believe the counteracting rules are the same.
Kolbods counteract dc is 28 with a level of 6th(expert 11th level and ability mod of +3 10+15+3). Whils kary counteract modifier is +20 (proficiency of 15 and a mod of +5 ) and she needs to roll a 18or higher to conteract becuse her coteract level is 4 and she counteracting a level 6 and becuse its 2 higher then her its she need a critical susses
How does one calculate the counteract DC of a disease ?
I think unless it states otherwise the counteract DC of a disease is the same as its saving throw DC.
@@HowItsPlayed Cheers. That's what I thought but being new to the game wasn't sure.
Kobold DC-18, 6th level counteract.
Kyra bonus-20, 4th level counteract.
Minimum number rolled, 3?
Edit: Fuck me, I forgot to add the +10 to the Kobold, I'm way off.
Player: fireball!
Kobold Sorc trying to nap: no.
*tosses tears of players on the fire of sacrifice*
This is a rule that must be house ruled.
Ur Video is great, but I can’t believe they left this overcomplicated rule in the game.
Out with the old DnD
LONG LIVE the new DND!!!!
Wotc can go try to be greedy with a pile of dirt.; Wouuld have lost a whole lot less if they tried that.
Love the video as always however this seems like a very unnecessary system. Especially in a campfire scenario.. i wiuld just let the pc douse it without this system lol
He mentions in the video that the campfire example is just to illustrate the rules in an easier to understand way, you wouldn't actually have to do any of that to douse a campfire in game (thankfully)
The system is there if you deem it needed to adjudicate a scenario and you so not need to use it when you do not require it.
I much prefer this to the “figure it out in your own” approach to some systems.
I'm a huge pathfinder fan, but this core rulebook is so poorly organized and it's a complete headache to try and answer some simple questions, like how to calculate proficiency. This video answers that, but still doesn't provide a reference on how to find that in the book, and I'm starting to feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall.
You can find the info on Proficiency on page 444. Basically, if you're Untrained you get no proficiency bonus. Trained, you get a bonus equal to level+2. Expert is level+4. Master is level+6. And Legendary proficiency is level+8.
You know rules are bad when you need a 20-minute video to explain something.
No. You know the rules are in depth when someone makes a video that talks about 3 different applications of a rule.
The rule takes no time at all to implement.
If you like to have to make up rules because your system you pay money for books for doesn’t provide it then go ahead.
But you can still homebrew in 2e if you don’t like the rules, but you shouldn’t be afraid of having to learn something.
I wouldn’t be supremely if you are coming from 5e while not ever learning or understanding 5e’s stealth mechanics for instance.