Rant: The Orthodox "Deaconess"
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2024
- The Metropolitanate of Zimambwe ordained an Orthodox deaconess. Like everyone else and their grandmother, I'm very opinionated. Additional info:
www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChri...
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Unfortunately, this controversy has only given ammunition in online arguments between Orthobros and Cathobros; a match made in hell. False deaconesses and gay blessings, wow!
As a Catholic, I would never celebrate the undermining of the Orthodox church.
Catholics don't bless the unions, there's no sin committed. However ordaining a fake deacon is a new level of crazy.
@@Astorath_the_Grim Idem ditto.
gay blessings aren't a thing in the Catholic Church.
Muh gay blessings 🤪🤡
The modern deaconess proponents' publicly stated reasons was always a front. If you listen to what they said, they didn't care if the revived deaconess responsibilities had nothing in common with the historical deaconesses; they just wanted the name. Among reasons they said they wanted deaconesses was to confess to a woman (strange, since deacons cannot take confession). They said that this will open up good conversations about ordaining women to the priesthood. There are plenty of resources for Orthodox women to perform all of the ministries to women they said they wanted deaconesses for. The goal was never about ministering to women: it was always power and subversion. I am just grateful for their greed and haste; it would have been more prudent for them to stay quiet, ordain a few hundred or so deaconesses before showing their hand. Instead they immediately revealed their true colors as soon as they were given any concession.
You shouldn't overgeneralize. I think it would be really cool if historical deaconesses were revived, but I definitely do not think they should be made equivalent to male deacons under any circumstance ever. It would defeat the purpose of the original tradition.
@npdaz3092 Honestly, I'm not inherently opposed to the historical deaconesses being revived per se. What I am concerned about is the people calling for it most loudly do not want to revive the historical deaconesses, but to innovate female deacons, with this as the Trojan Horse.
@@billcynic1815 Yeah I totally agree with you there, people using it like a Trojan horse need to be stopped, it's not respectful to the tradition. It's probably a long shot but I'm still holding out for hope that we can one day honestly implement it in it's proper context, without the bad actors messing it up.
@@npdaz3092The problem is that it's only being pushed by bad actors. No holy elder in Mount Athos is asking for it, no good bishop is etc... As orthodox christians we have to wake up and realize the sign of the times. This deaconess thing is a debacle.
@@npdaz3092 I'm not Orthodox so feel free to tell me to shut up, but I feel as though this would be a dangerous time/age to even bring back those roles at all.
The west is about to die and a lot of feminism and witchcraft will undoubtedly seep in and while the Church will never fail, there will be issues for members and new converts being deceived and led away....be careful
its just an excuse to subvert the clergy. thats it. hardline NO! don’t allow yourselves to be tricked.
Deaconess is an extinct position in the eastern orthodox clergy. It is not equivalent to deacon and it’s primary purpose was to deliver communion to women in a state of undress or minister to women in a state of undress or sickness in general which male clergy would find improper to serve.
Edit: I did not know of the ordination in Zimbabwe. But I guess I’m still right in saying it is an extinct position, as it seems she was ordained to the diaconate, and not as a deaconess.
the orthodox has always supported the validity of deaconesses as validly and sacramentally ordained ministers. on the other hand, catholics have never permitted females in a sacramentally ordained ministry.
Historic deaconesses are more similar to abbesses and nuns.
@@carlose4314 but they are still sacerdotally and sacramentally equal to the deacons, according to phanar, antioch, greek, and russian orthodox statements available on the internet.
@@jperez7893
Antioch in Lebanon and America have already condemned the action.
@@acekoala457 at least the orthodox is agreeing to the teaching of Rome. Rome has never allowed female ordained diaconate.
Holy Synod of Alexandria is going to put a stop to this per last encyclical
Good. Because the Metropolitan did it with their approval
@@acekoala457 Not quite. "Metropolitan Seraphim of Zimbabwe, being an experienced missionary to Africa, proceeded with the implementation of the initial decision of the Holy Synod. However, this decision has yet to be activated as the examination of the matter by the Synod has not been completed for a final decision,”
@@nikosr265
She is administering the Sacraments wrongly.
According to the encyclical from Zimbabwe the Metropolitan did this with the approval of the Synod in Alexandria.
They are backpedaling because they got caught.
Heresy won't prevail in the true church. Pray for our patriarchs and bishops, that they would be pillars of faith.
I was Ordained a Reader the same day this "Deaconess" was "Ordained".
The Reader is an Explicitly Male Office in the Clerical Hierarchy. And is a Prerequisite for all the rest of the Clerical Ranks. So when was she made a Reader?
Having left trad Catholicism with its notions of minor and major clerical orders, I was glad to find myself in somewhere which wasn't so topsy turvy. The ecclesial hierarchy is top down and not a career progression through the ranks. We are looking at this wrong. It is all abut Bishops, and then who they assign to help and in what role. Nobody wants to be a Bishop, it is not an aspirational role, or if it is, the men concerned are dangerous! A Bishop only has priests because there are too many souls for him to minister the Eucharist to alone, a Bishop only has ordained deacons to help with the liturgy for the Eucharist. There is no career progression for this woman through the ranks, a categorical error has been committed by those who sanctioned this. The Bishop involved needs our prayers, he is obviously under attack spiritually and from NGO political forces wishing to destroy Orthodoxy.
@@gillianc6514seeing the priesthood as merely an extension of the episcopacy is not right if you follow the office of elder ship through the OT. It derives its authority from the apostolic office but is a thing in its own right.
@@traceyedson9652 please explain. As far as I was aware there was no progression into the priesthood in the OT, it was due to being a Levite. Synagogues had elders but this was not part of the priesthood. In the NT the episcopy comes first and comes straight from Christ, everything else is secondary.
@@gillianc6514
Well technically Orthodoxy has 2 "Minor Clerical Orders", Reader and Subdeacon, but in many Jurisdictions in the West they have been run down. Even though without a Priest or Bishop a Deacon can only act as a Reader.
@@gillianc6514 it’d be a lot to explain. There was a tradition of elders in Israel. The presbyterate restores the father-priest function and isn’t merely a new dynamic in the NT.
“Welcome to Orthodox Banter with Bojan…” my brain automatically added “hands.”
lol....me too!!
Historic deaconesses are more similar to abbesses and nuns.
Or the Widows of 2nd Temple Judaism. They would assist in the dressing of the Dead.
As a nearly retired woman with no family, I would really like to do God's work through; being available to support in a Christ-centred way postpartum women, the elderly and housebound, and washing and laying out the dead when people die at home, even house cleaning if a parishoner finds it too much and has become overwhelmed with rubbish... if the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, then this is the temple where I think women have a valuable role of service. I don't care what you call it, but there should be more of this and I do believe it is a role suited to women and one which should be officially sanctioned by the church. Do any other women feel the same? Will any Bishop support us! I am so tired of the Deaconess debate when there exists non liturgical but still deeply spiritually supportive work to be done!
Become a nun.
@@Astorath_the_Grim I have thought about that, but in all honesty I need more male company than I will get in a monastery!
@@gillianc6514i know nuns , in my city they go to the mass with everyone else , i don't feel like they are particularly detached from our group
Does a women need to be ordained to the office of the diaconate to minister to women?
@@gillianc6514 But you said you have no family. So you do have a husband to keep you "company"?
Their primary function was to do with baptism and chrismation in female convents, because back then all baptisms were naked so you can imagine that would be a problem for a priest when it comes to women. Since adult baptisms are no longer naked, A “deaconess” would hold literally 0 function. The roles of charity a deaconess took part in historically nuns and basically anyone else already do and can do
The descriptions I've heard of the ancient office of deaconess seem essentially the same as the modern office of Roman Catholic "active sisters," who make the same kinds of vows as nuns but play an active role ministering to the faithful outside of a convent or monastery.
Don’t be sorry about the “rant” Bojan, it was well said and I completely agree.
It’s my understanding that deaconesses in the past were never ordained. They weren’t clergy. It was basically a really unique position because there was a need. An example would be a Warden I suppose. It appears to me there is no need for this position of deaconesses, and, given the current climate, will only cause more issues than solve them.
I didn't actually know of any organizations that supported deaconesses, I'm just some random person who supports the idea purely cause I found it out on my own. I think it's a cool position in our tradition and I would like to see it revived, however I anticipated that this would get hijacked by bad actors sadly. If we are to bring it back we need to ultra emphasize that this isn't a female deacon. I'm probably gonna get roasted just for holding this opinion lol. But that's how I feel honestly, I think it could be helpful and good but under no circumstance should it ever be a "female deacon" that would defeat the entire purpose of it, subverting it's original traditional role. Why revive something for tradition if you will break the tradition, that's my view. Zimbabwe should be ashamed of this scandal.
Hello Bojan! I was wondering if you could make a video on the difference between vestments in Traditions! Like how they're different in the Slavic, Greek, etc. Thank you!
Odličan video Bojane, da li si nekad razmišljao o tome da napraviš video o Patrijarhu Pavlu? Puno pozdrava 😊
Every parish already has a Presbytera and some parishes that have a Deacon also have a Diakonissa. You know this? These women can and do help other women with women issues.
I agree with you. The problem lies with two issues:
1) the impetus behind the return seems to be more fore gaining a foothold towards ordination of women than a real desire to bring back the original deaconess role
2) whole deaconesses were not to assist with liturgy and/or other sacramental roles unless there was a dire need (your statements) it appears there is an increasing need as the shortfall of deacons and priests here is over 400.
On point 2.
Bojan says that they would serve Communion "Outside the Liturgy". So regardless of the 400 Priest Shortage, we should first be looking towards raising up Priests from the Congregations in Local Parishes. And never to the fairer sex to fulfill a role they are not designed for.
We want MORE of your rants!
Yes, but in theater of hands style!
Yes! The diakonisa existed in the early church. We are truly being Orthodox Christians! Axia!
In the early Church, the office was never equivalent to Deacon, but as Bojan says, as long as the role is equivalent to the ancient role, it's not necessarily to be condemned, but I must add it is hardly necessary, and if it's presented as being female deacons, then yes, it must be condemned.
This is schismatic by design and the desire of these people is of the world. I stand firmly against this.
If we would revive the Deconesses like they were in ancient times, we should rename it to idk parish servant or whatever..
Beta deacon
@@icommitedwarcrimes4879 Can I be a sigma deacon
@@MassachusettsTrainVideos1136 only if you are more sigma than saint martyr Stephen
@@icommitedwarcrimes4879 That's unlikely but it was worth a shot
Ancient faith today with Fr. Thomas Soroka has already covered this debate with a whole panel of Academic Priests, seminary professors and even Metropolitan Saba.
subscribed!
There are times when women in crisis would definitely benefit from having an Orthodox woman to talk to. We already have abbesses and matushkas, but I don't understand why we can't send an older, pious lay woman to speak with women who need help, with the blessing of the priest, of course. I guess I don't understand why it has to be an ordained person.
It probably happens more than you know. Does your parish not have godparents and friendships? Ours are
Quite active, and aren’t always “sent” by the priest. It’s called caring for one another.
@@traceyedson9652 Forgive me for being unclear in my comment. Yes, of course these things happen naturally in a community. I was responding to the proponents of bringing back deaconess who say that women in crisis need an ordained female to visit and minister to them. I am asking why they need to be ordained. Why not send a pious woman from the church. Priests often visit people who are not parishioners of the parish, so they may not be part of the community and not have friends and godparents in the local church.
Hi Bojan! :) Ive recently watched a patristicnectarfilms videos about “the journey of the soul after death” and there the difference between the blessed state after death and the heaven was made.
There it was said that we sort of ascend (or descend, depending on the life we lived) and grow closer to Christ but that we aren’t with Him per se, nor are we in Heaven but kind of climbing a ladder or between heaven and… some sort of undefined space by ourselves in closer proximity to Christ than during our earthly life?
If the Saints are in this too instead of Heaven or Heavenly Jerusalem, do the saints “climb the ladder” so to speak as well and help us with their prayers during that state of kind of hanging mid air being between heaven and earth? Are the departed ascending in slowly towards Christ (movement wise)? This confuses me greatly.
Do Christians not go to heaven/heavenly jerusalem after death? Or those who sadly didn’t, to Hades as a foretaste? I thought the Believers were awaiting the resurrection together in heaven. I know that heaven and hell are the way we experience God’s light and presence first and foremost, but isn’t it a place sort of as well? Don’t we need to be somewhere too and not just weirdly floating around in a sort of spirit realm.
I know that we await the resurrection and the last judgment, and the remarrying of heaven and earth, where the heavenly Jerusalem will be brought to earth and the Lord makes the world anew. Living in God’s eternal Kingdom and in His direct presence, in communion with God and the Church, is the fullness of heaven.
Sorry for this super long comment, it just causes a great deal of confusion and a bit of anxiety in me.
Hello Bojan, would you be willing to make a video about what to do if you agree with orthodoxy but there is no Orthodox Church near the place you live? Thank you!
Is Anglicanism a good option for people in this situation?
He has a video on his main channel talking about this, and no, Anglicanism is not an option.
While this doesnt "debunk" Orthodoxy, it does go to show that no church is a utopia.
It was only a matter of time before people jumping ship to Orthodoxy (especially from Catholicism) to escape liberalism would be sorely disappointed.
Not really. Too rare of a case to prove that at all.
Unlike Rome, Orthodox Ecclesiology doesn't rely on one man to guard the Faith.
@@acekoala457 Catholics have the magisterium to guard the faith
That’s precisely why we now have a normal Church in Africa - the Patriarchal Exarchate of Africa under the Patriarchate of Moscow. And this is why priests are fleeing Alexandria.
The Greeks have completely lost it.
Sad but true. I'm a convert in GOARCH, and I'm seeing the madness take hold in our jurisdiction, but thankfully, neither my Bishop nor my Priest believe in or allow such things in my diocese or parish. We all need to pray that God will rebuke those hierarchs who push for this insanity.
The Exarchate shouldn't exist tbh. It was established on the same grounds the Schismatics were given Autocephalous Status in Ukraine.
I'm in ROCOR and even my Bishop said it's not right.
@@acekoala457I suspect it’s more Russian colonialism under the guise of spiritual care. One doesn’t break the canons in order to keep them!
@@acekoala457 The moment the Patriarchate of Alexandria entered into communion with graceless schismatics was the moment it lost any claim to canonical territory.
@@traceyedson9652 I highly advise you ask the African clergy who they think is the real colonizer. The answers might shock you.
While I don’t think this debunks Eastern Orthodoxy by any means, I think it’s kind of telling that if some bishop in the Catholic Church did this Orthobros would be unrelenting about it. Nice video though 👍🏻
That's true. Although the RC system is quite different in that it, per its own dogmatic statements, stands or falls on one man's shoulders. Very different from Orthodox ecclesiology. We can deal with heretical bishops, precisely because we have no supreme bishop.
@@CosmicMystery7 Aye, but I meant it more in a scenario where a random bishop ordained the woman. I do admit it would be way worse if the Pope did it than just a patriarchate.
To be fair, I'm guessing plenty of Orthobros are critical of this move as well
@@nathanieln.1732 True!
God definitly allowed that so Orthobros have to calm down a little
We in the RC Church have the same issues with Fiducia Supplicans. SUPPOSEDLY a "couple" can request a blessing BUT the blessing can only then be given individually and may not in any instance appear to be a ceremony for the two as a couple. Francis himself has stated this publicly. However Francis' pro LGBT, BFF, Jesuit James Martin did exactly that with photos as proof and , surprise, surprise, Francis has not disciplined him. Touchy Fernandez who authored this bit of Gnostic nonsense, has said they will not go on a witch hunt for priests who do this, probably because the witch hunt they are on, driving traditional Catholic clergy and bishops from the ranks is so exhausting. There is nothing slyer and more sebaceous than modernists in the pursuit of their agenda. Of course they are delighted at what this heterodox metropolitan has done as they want deaconesses in our future also.
The Fact is like it or not during the early Byzantine era Deaconesses were permitted into the Ieron - Sanctuary, and were assigned to Commune the women congregants.
Source. I’ve never heard this, and I’m not completely ignorant.
@@traceyedson9652 I too was nonplussed when after all the talk, I actually read it in an out-of-print Greek life of St. Xeni of Kos; authored it need be added by a theologian Archimandrite agiographer.
@@traceyedson9652Hi Tracey, the source 'ΒΙΟΙ ΑΓΙΟΝ' Vol. 72 - Athens 1972 Editions Orthodox Typos. Archim. Charalambos D. Basilopoulou Προηγουμένου (Prior) of the Holy Monastery Petrake.
Η ΟΣΙΑ ΞΕΝΗ (The 'Osia' Xeni) pg. 15 - Ή Διακόνισσα' (The Deaconess):
' Την εποχή εκείνη εκοιμήθη ο Επίσκοπος εκείνης τής πόλεως Κύριλος ονοματι. Τότε όλοι εξέλεξαν ως 'Επίσκοπον τόν Παύλον. 'Ο Παύλος συνεβουλευσε την Ξένη να γίνη Διακόνισσα. Τότε υπήρχε ο θεσμός των Διακομισσών. Οι Διακόνισσες εφρόντιζαν για τούς φτωχούς τής 'Εκκλησίας. ΕΙΧΑΝ ΤΟ ΔΙΚΑΙΩΜΑ ΝΑ ΜΕΝΟΥΝ ΚΑΤΑ ΤΗΝ ΘΕΙΑ ΛΕΙΤΟΥΡΓΙΑ ΣΤΟ ΙΕΡΟ ΚΑΙ ΝΑ ΚΟΙΝΩΝΟΥΝ ΤΙΣ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΕΣ.'
Now, I must qualify, I am as in little favour of women serving at, or anywhere near the altar, as you, or anyone else may be; but facts are facts.
@@traceyedson9652 Lives of the Saints (BIOI AGION) Vol 72. St. Xeni. Pg. 15, Orthodox Typos, Athens 1972. Archim. Haralambos D. Basilopoulos.
@@terrytzaneros8007 also, such a writing does not stand up to the canonical tradition of the Church.
So now that a deaconess has been ordained (or blessed). Does she keep the position or will she be defrocked?
this is only the beginning
The Bishops and Synod should be put to account. The "Deaconess" should also be set a penance for even allowing her Bishop to do this to her.
@@acekoala457 this does not violate the teachings of the orthodox church. they have always held the belief, contrary to the catholics, that deaconess was a valid sacerdotal and sacramental office in the church. no harm no foul
The deaconess was not a female deacon (which is what this case was.) this was not a valid ordination, and therefore she can not be defrocked
@@colefriel3171 check the debates of the orthodox bishops saying the deaconess was a valid sacramental order of the orthodox that they practice but the catholics opposed
Next we will have to get used to a Lesbian Pope who takes the papal name of Sebastian I.
If it were the Latin Church, we would never say that a woman had been validly ordained no matter who had done it or what words were used - because the nature of the office is such that it is ontologically impossible to convey on a woman. We would only say that it was "attempted". These so-called female ordinations are only a kind of pantomime, a bit of public pseudo ecclesiastical theatre, and no sacramental action has genuinely taken place.
Plain and simple.. Heresy!!!
Yeah you're right. It's completely unnecessary, but at least tolerable to include special Church tasks for women and call them "deaconesses", especially when those tasks reproduce ancient traditions (assisting with female baptisms, management of the Church building, etc.) But making female deacons, who do what deacons do today is contrary to the holy orders which Christ Himself established through the apostles.
Lutheran here yeah it aint cool😂
All I can say is that here in the US, people are coming to Orthodoxy to escape "Christian innovation" and modernity in general. Western Christianity is in flames, not just but especially the Protestants. I just had my last catechumen class; did I come along just in time for Eastern Orthodoxy to fall to Westernization and ecumenism? Sigh... We spell Tradition with a Capital "T" for a reason. One innovation leads to another to another to another...
Chill bro
this is the reason why the catholic church is the only true church for even the orthodox has ordained a woman using proper formulas exclusive for the sacerdotal ministry. the catholic church on the other hand, has never fallen to this innovation. pope john paul ii has closed this issue forever despite unrelenting proponents for women clergy. the orthodox also allows divorce, the catholic church does not. the deposit of faith kept in the catholic church remains undefiled because it remains in Jesus Christ and protected by the Holy Spirit.
go offline fr
the orthodox church teaches that deaconess were part of the early church, that is why they ordained a woman sacramentally using the formula for deacons. this is not the case for the catholics, they have never admitted females into the priesthood and have closed this issue forever.
If you panic every time a bad bishop tries to push the limits, you will be a nervous wreck often. The church will always be under attack from within and from without until Christ comes. Let's be patient and see how this particular case works itself out...
"enemies of the Church"? Really? Who are you to tell? What if I say that you are an enemy of the Church? What then?
Did I introduce something that never was in the Church? :D
@@BanterWithBojan it was in the Church! Only 100 years ago St Nectarios ordained Deaconesses. Even so, tradition evolves as the time passes. Many practices and canons introduced in the Church in later ages. So what? But my point was that your hostility towards your fellow orthodox is unacceptable, in any case!
He did ordain deaconesses, but not in the way this "deaconess" was, and he was very clear on what their duties were. Practices and canons do change, but there is no change in actual teaching and Church doctrine, and introducing a full-fledged female deacon is precisely that. That is what's unacceptable.
@@BanterWithBojan it is not a doctrinal issue. And yes, your hostility is a matter of righteousness, and thus unacceptable! As I said, from my point of you, you could actual be the enemy of the Church, for what you are doing is promoting division. Whatever your opinion, a very large number of orthodox people are very happy with the ordination of the blessed deaconess, and if the Holy Spirit permits it, there is nothing you can do.
@@rosalina528 sure, sure
Rely on genuine Pauline letters for Pauline thought.
I see the denial of ordination to women is a denial of the fall’s reversal, a denial of the gospel itself.
So the Church has yet to affirm the Gospel even to this very day?
Galatians 3.28
Women are not qualified to be Ordained via St. Paul, who according to Scripture taught the same things Christ did.
“I see” isn’t a source. “I think” things, too. But if it’s not in line with the Church, it’s not in line. That’s the definition of heresy: opinion in place of Tradition.
@@nikolaibreckenridge2287 More like, the Church has _never_ affirmed the Gospel, according to OP.
Orthodoxy ordains sacramental deaconess before the Catholics. You canʼt make this stuff up xD
And you guys have clown masses and puppet masses you can't make this stuff up. not to mention your bishops are groomers.
Orthobros coping
Have fun with your Gay blessings and destroying your liturgy.
It's a sad day for Orthodoxy for sure, gents, but we're not bound canonically by just one Bishop the way Catholics are by the Pope. When the Pope says to bless irregular couples that's binding on all Roman Catholics. Technically.
@@justian1772“bless irregular couples”
Did you actually listen to what to Pope said?