*Thank you for listening! Where do you sit on this issue? Do breeding animals get a pass? Is rack-style husbandry gold standard for some species? Let us know in the comments below!* 👇
I'm on viv keepers side. Rack systems don't provide the snakes the necessary enrichment that terrariums and vivariums provide. Racks in my opinion should only be used for quarantine or breeding purposes only.
I'm with Liam on the the subject of better enclosure. Makes more logical sense. But I appreciate the woman's position and thought she defending her position well. And for her particularly, she may be doing well. But most breeders don't have her mindset. When she speaks it doesn't seem like an addiction. I can examine her motive.
Excellent conversation! Unfortunately Michelle doesn't come close to being representative of rack keepers. I suspect this is why she was willing to talk. I work with African Fat tails in the US, and mass breeders run the biggest AFT groups on FB. These breeders defend their racks and lack of substrate to the point of stopping others from promoting good welfare for the animal. They take the "avoiding the negative" that Liam describes to an extreme. They promote keeping that offers nothing for the gecko under the guise of "keeping it safe." An interesting pattern I've noticed is, specifically with AFTs, they're keeping habits actually cause a negative effect, stuck sheds. They insist that an AFT is an "arid species" despite available research articles to the contrary. They refuse to give anything but a single humid hide, and then need monthly interventions to help the animal shed. Talk about not being allowed natural behaviors, they can't even shed on their own. And doing this to their own animals would be bad enough, but they run the FB groups and insist to beginner after beginner that not keeping animals this way will hurt them. To the point of absolutely terrifying them. It needs to stop
Also, the prices are so low because of competing with imports all this time. Raise the cost of imports to the level that only breeders can afford them. Make sure most of that money makes it to the hands of the locals who catch the animals. This will decrease the pressure to capture quantity, as the increased price should limit demand. This will also incentivise importing in a more ethical way so more animals will survive shipping
Yes very well said! "Unfortunately Michelle doesn't come close to being representative of rack keepers. I suspect this is why she was willing to talk." Absolutely correct!
Not to be rude but this channel has less views total than Snake Discovery has on their least popular video. I doubt Emily would care to debate anyone on anything, they have a successful channel, it would be see as this channel coat tailing for clicks.
@@KachuhzKachCan thanks for your input I guess, Emily seems like a pretty reasonable smart person. Personally I think she would hear out someone else's opinion and have a reasonable discussion. She's done it before with other smaller channels.
@@connerjones9572 im not sure how much of an expert emily is. Success doesnt equate to knowledge imo. Clint from clints reptiles would be a good one. Hes a biology professor. Jeff from great basin serpentarium would be good also. Hes a ph.D in zoology
There is no need to “supply the industry” or “meet the demand”. Using racks outside of quarantine, medical treatment or hatchlings is not appropriate. Reptile mill breeders will always justify it.
Exactly, the only thing that would change if racks were banned would be the amount of money the breeders would make. The snakes could become more expensive to accommodate this and that would be fine.
so my take on racks, is that the prevalence of racks and the morph market are two sides of the same coin. there is a lot of people, especially hobby level, that treat morphs like gambling. so to increase the odds of getting a higher value morph you get more animals to start from. then they end up with piles of snakes that didnt work out and nobody wants so they either have to house them or dispose of them. i have genuinely heard that people want one particular morph, but its too expensive to buy. so they have then bought several snakes with less desirable genetics in order to eventually get that snake. so they wanted one snake, and instead they bought many that they didnt want or have the space for and as such they force themselves into needing a rack. regardless of the false economy of that situation its the kind of thing that happens with multi morph species, and scale is the best way to mess with it. if that person had just bought the snake they wanted to begin with then maybe they would not have found themselves cramming animals into sub par conditions in order to squeeze them into one room. racks and morphs are not mutually exclusive, but one is worse for the others existence, if you see what i mean. when you start talking about species that dont have morphs you see dramatically less use of racks, both professionally and domestically. there is still some around but the difference seems plain to see to my eyes. it also doesnt help that (as francis cosquieri said in your podcast) people think of breeding as the only sign that the animals are thriving when it is objectively not. so for the rack minded people it creates a self supporting loop of validation. i know there are keepers and breeders out there who only use vivs and still have scale on their side. and that is absolutely fine if they are happy to invest in the animals. i also dont think racks are inherently evil, but their use is only really good for specific circumstances. the problem, like many things, is based around exposure and education.
The Great Enclosure Debate! Fantastic video everyone. Really happy to see this being a productive conversation. Edit to add: Is there a reason preventing rack keepers from offering more enriching bins with things such as substrate, leaf litter, multiple cork pieces, and branches? I’ve seen it done by some respectable people and would love to see more of this for those people that are bin keeping.
Thank you for listening :) Is it a really great question, and I'm not sure what the answer is! I think if consumers start pushing for more enriching rack systems, the companies will (hopefully) start offering them!
Good idea. I wonder if people who keep in racks would be willing to swap out their expensive racks that carry larger numbers of animals for a rack that can only house half the number of adults in the same space. They could repurpose the current racks for younger animals
I was hesitant to click this video when I saw how long it was - but man was it worth it! Regarding the breeder vs pet owner point that breeders don't need to provide the same level of enrichment.. I believe that the healthier start the hatchlings receive, the healthier they will be long term (assuming the future owner provides the same enrichment, of course). For example, if the hatchlings get UVB and start developing healthier bones from the beginning of their life, it will benefit them and give them a great start at a healthy life. Whereas if the breeder doesn't provide enrichment and UVB, then the animal will experience extra shock going to a home that DOES provide that, and as a result, experience more stress and take longer to adapt. This seems like no big deal to people but it could be the difference between someone keeping their pet and loving them vs deciding to rehome it because it's too defensive; or regarding UVB, only starting to develop stronger bones once they arrive at their new home rather than already having a start at it with the breeder. If the animal is already healthy with a great start when the new owner receives it, it not only gains the breeder an excellent reputation, but gives the animal a better quality of life all around. So in the long run, I agree with Liam that breeders can have better reputations and profit from providing better care and therefore healthier animals. Even if that care is provided in (accommodating) rack systems, the priority is that the care and enrichment is being provided at all. As was pointed out in the video, there are ways to improve rack systems so they provide more than the bare minimum and are also space efficient. If everyone worked toward improving rack systems, we could change the reputation of them-- the first thought when "rack system" is mentioned doesn't have to be "a drawer with dirt and a water dish;" it can be "space and energy efficient system that accommodates the requirements for maximum quality of life." It would be amazing to see this as a goal so that the idea of bare minimum rack systems could be abolished and stop ruining the reputation of the hobby and breeders. It's crazy really; I talk about snake breeding a lot because it's a goal of mine, and the first thing I hear from most people is how they hate breeders because they keep animals in drawers. That idea is so widespread and it really makes the hobby and breeding look bad. Thank you for sharing this respectful and insightful conversation/debate. I loved listening. It's refreshing to see the topic presented in this way. :)
@@ElijahSnyder Thanks! I'll check those out! For the record, I don't use racks, I use PVC enclosures, but I believe anything can be improved upon. The breeders who get hate just tend to stand out more than the ones who excel at husbandry and overall care. It's unfortunate and looks bad on the hobby, so I believe if it were to improve, it would really have a positive impact. :)
I personally prefer Enclosures over racks because I think that if you are using racks, even with tonnes of enrichment, it isn't a pet it's just an animal you are feeding
I think something that gets lost is that all racks aren’t created equal. There is a difference between a box the the animal can’t move in, blocks out all light and has nothing but a sheet of paper and a water bowl, and a transparent box that allows light, has substrate and hiding spots, and is big enough to allow the animal to move
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast thanks! I think it’s an overall culture problem. For too long reptiles have been viewed as a get rich quick scheme. I was in this hobby when the first albino and piebald ball pythons came out, and it’s been downhill ever since. I’m also in the aquarium hobby, and the difference is amazing. There are people who make their living off of fish and refer to themselves as hobbyists and talk about the hobby, meanwhile anyone who owns a couple snakes talks about the “industry”. People sold snakes on the idea that you were making an investment and that they were going to make money, it was like they were trying to kill the “hobby”
I thought that was a great conversation between Liam and Michelle and it was a conversation and not a my way is better than your way contest which was so nice to hear. I think for me it was the discussion around keeping an animal as a pet which distinguished that both agreed that keeping multiple snakes in a rack just so you can have more is actually wrong. I would love more animals but we are pretty much out of space on where we can keep them so we will do everything we can to look after the ones that we do have. It was nice to hear that Michelle does provide more than just a hide and a water bowl for her animals which are kept in a rack and I fully understand why as a breeder she utilises rack systems. I just wish all breeders had Michelles mentality and then perhaps the debate would not exist in the hobby.
I think one good thing we could do is create clubs. The purpose of these clubs would be to hold a care standard for the breeders. Those breeders would get a certificate from the club. This could justify the higher prices for said animals. As well as getting the breeders breeders to be able to advocate for better care as well as the customers. The people that buy these animals could also it was could also get a pedigree, and certificate For the animals they purchase. The very same thing that dog clubs and such do.
As long as we don't have to go the long way around, like with kennel clubs. A whole lot of bad breeding has been done in the name of breeding for looks without any regard for health. There are a lot of messed up dog breeds out there that will take a long time to fix, now.
Seperate from my own standpoints. I think it is great both had a discussion in such manner, and both sides clearly care about their animals. And again its animalsathome creating the enviroment to do so. Well done everyone. We have the same animal freedom laws in Europe/NL. The problem is these are very open to interpertation and personal standards. My biggest concern with racks is the often smaller amount of space and therefor less oppertunities for sensory stimulus. Most are less optimal ventilated and there is less options to add/control light (and possibly UV). I use racks, and very purposly. I understand that big breeders have a place in our hobby. But we should prevent this level of care is becoming a standard.
I think it depends on the individual. You can have a small group of snakes in a rack, which can easily control temps/humidity and still handle the snakes regularly (if they are willing) or offer stimulation within their rack
PART ONE This is a post that will take time to digest and is written in response to a number of issues were raised so a good answer cannot be short. It’s probably appropriate to start off confirming our understanding of how UV and vit D works with reptiles; this is very well understood and extensively published. It is also accepted there is still much to learn. In the last few of years the link between the UV wavelengths and the other solar spectrum wavelengths have been explored are being shared within the hobby. To set the scene please watch this delightful interview with the man that started it all some 40 years ago. Prof. Gary Ferguson is a lovely gentle man whose knowledge is only just touched upon here. His students were lucky to have him. ruclips.net/video/n2k2L77q494/видео.html Dr. Frances Baines a vet and Honorary Life Member of BIAZA has also built the UV knowledge base over the last 20 years. She lectures to Zoos and keepers across the world from San Diego to the Middle East, from Sweden to the UK. She has helped develop lamps with all of the major manufacturers and her UV diagrams (or their copies) are on virtually every box selling a UV lamp. She has also co-authored a range of peer-reviewed papers in scientific journals, but here is a useful simple review article written for hobbyists. www.reptilesmagazine.com/an-in-depth-look-at-uv-light-and-its-proper-use-with-reptiles/ Some of her work has been in conjunction with Gary and it is together that they built upon Gary’s work and ideas and the Ferguson Zones were born. Her work with BIAZA’s Reptile and Amphibian Working Group resulted inthe BIAZA “UV Tool”, a spread sheet covering UV provision for very many of our reptile species (266 species to date). It is used extensively. Quite simply their work on UV and its link to Vitamin D has changed the face of husbandry. When I lived in Phoenix in the last century, we got a Dragon for the kids and were told of a mysterious illness that caused the animals to lose control of their legs, we were told to ensure we fed plenty of greens and peas. The animal died of course, due to Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD). I have an association with the National Centre for Reptile Welfare (NCRW) and in the last two years (despite COVID lockdown) 2278 animals have passed through the place. Each was medically examined; Of those were 159 bearded Dragons of which 3 showed symptoms of MBD. 93 were Geckos of which 4 sowed symptoms of MBD. The impact of that knowledge used in the reptile husbandry has been profound. With the above foundation, I can move on. I quote from the dialogue of that long exchange. “It's interesting that both you and Liam demand cited, peer reviewed resources to prove that WHO, NICE, and several other organizations do not recognize Vitamin D as a treatment for covid19.... yet neither of you can locate these resources yourself. The very first half of the referenced UVTool by JZAR repeats that UV is dangerous. It is literally "common sense" that humans only need 15 minutes over a few days - you can locate this yourself.” “Common sense” is not in the least helpful when one is ignorant of the processes involved. To estimate the time needed to synthesize adequate vitamin D3 requires an understanding of the irradiance (eg. UV Index) which depends on the sun’s altitude - the area of skin exposed - and the rate of synthesis of vitamin D3 in different skin types. In humans, dark skinned individuals may only synthesise a tenth of the vitamin D3 produced by a fair skinned person from a given dose. In reptiles, a study showed a similar finding comparing Texas Spiny Lizard and House Gecko skin: Carman, E. N., Ferguson, G. W., Gehrmann, W. H., Chen, T. C., & Holick, M. F. (2000). Photobiosynthetic opportunity and ability for UV-B generated vitamin D synthesis in free-living house geckos (Hemidactylus turcicus) and Texas spiny lizards (Sceloporus olivaceous). Copeia 2000(1) 245-250. For we humans, one needs to know how much D3 is required from this exposure. Early estimates were based on “common sense” that 400IU per day was the target. This is woefully inadequate and has no effect at all upon circulating levels. It is now believed that 2,000 - 5,000 IU/day will achieve levels adequate for optimum immune function and typical of people living traditional tribal lifestyles or in outdoor occupations optimizing sun exposure. Modern humans living indoor lifestyles can never achieve this without supplements. A simple calculation results in an estimate that to obtain 2,000 IU/day, a Caucasian only exposing arms and face requires 40 minutes of sunlight at UV Index 7.0 every day of their life. Clearly impossible in Northern latitudes. “The Mayo clinic includes a statement that Vitamin D’s association to COVID19 is unclear. Vitamin D is not recognized as a treatment or preventative measure for COVID19 from WHO. NICE, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, released research guidelines on this topic. A study funded by NICE appears in the Harvard Gazette suggesting that deficient individuals benefited from vitamin D supplementation.” The advice from the WHO and NICE has evolved, it will be remembered that they did not, at first, recommend the use of face masks. Yet here we are now a year later with a requirement that everybody entering a government facility should wear a face mask. I also recall the president saying it will be all over by the summer. The NICE guidelines are worth looking at as you get differing statement depending on where and when you look. I quote directly from the most recent NICE guidelines. It will be noted that these guidelines are for Caucasian white skinned folk which have evolved to live in northern climes. 84.Research is urgently required on vitamin D and risk of acute respiratory tract infections in black, Asian and minority ethnic groups and people living with overweight or obesity. UK government advice on vitamin D 85.In spring and summer, most people get enough vitamin D through UVB sunlight exposure on the skin and a healthy, balanced diet. During autumn and winter everyone needs to rely on dietary sources of vitamin D. Since it is difficult for people to meet the 10 μg/day (400 IU/d) recommendation from consuming foods naturally SACN December 202017containing or fortified with vitamin D, everyone should consider taking a daily supplement (10 μg; 400 IU) of vitamin D between October and early March. As a matter of interest Dr. Fauci, a member of the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Medicine, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the American Philosophical Society; takes a daily dose of 6000IU. D3 capsules. Go to part two
*PART TWO FROM ROMAN:* Dr John Campbell is a Nurse Teacher with two higher degrees and still works in A&E in the North of England . A professional communicator on the matter. I offer just two of his many educational videos. The first covers the vit D mechanism of operation. Dr. John Campbell Vit D Lots of evidence. 15 April 2020 ruclips.net/video/GCSXNGc7pfs/видео.html 1:00 Lots of vitamin D comes from the sun. 8:20 Description of the protection mechanism and mode of COVID19 operation. 10:27 Addresses the case rate associated with the winter period and its link with available sunlight. The video also talks of comorbidity. “It would be nice to get some admission from Liam that his conclusions and guidance for keepers, whether or new or experienced, are not nearly as concrete as they are made out to be. He flippantly addresses Vitamin D as "easy" when it simply isn't - we don't know how this works in humans.” Clearly after watching the video we can agree that maybe we know how it works for humans and in particular with COVID, and also just as clearly, we have more to learn. However, there has been an explosion of studies on the mechanisms of action of vitamin D on the immune system in the last 10 years. The processes by which it is synthesized in the skin under UVB have been understood for more than 20 years. It is patently ridiculous to say that “we don't know how this works in humans”. I would refer you to these review articles, which cite a huge number of studies elucidating the research: 1. Holick, M.F., 2017. The vitamin D deficiency pandemic: Approaches for diagnosis, treatment and prevention. Reviews in Endocrine and Metabolic Disorders, 18(2), pp.153-165. 2. Grant, W.B., Holick, M.F. and Wimalawansa, S.J., 2015. Vitamin D supplements and reasonable solar UVB should be recommended to prevent escalating incidence of chronic diseases. BMJ, 350, p.h321. 3. Wacker, M. and Holick, M.F., 2013. Sunlight and Vitamin D: A global perspective for health. Dermato-endocrinology, 5(1), pp.51-108. Dr John Campbell; latest update. 29 Jan 2021 so the paint is still wet. ruclips.net/video/au6FKi8aAsA/видео.html Half a million participants in study. 5:25 he says 90% of vit D comes from the sun. Dr Campbell shows astounding evidence gained from the various Meta studies including UK and USA. There is no ambiguity. We can only wait for NICE to catch up. There is no doubt about the efficacy of Vitamin D that when taken regularly of having a positive protective effect. Covid is a respiratory disease whose attack mechanism is becoming well understood otherwise we could not make the vaccine. Also better understood now are the co-morbidities. The lack of sufficient Vitamin D IS a condition with negative effects on the final health outcomes and addressing it reduces deaths. That has been proven. Now here is another interesting thing; in the quote from NICE above it states that obesity needs to be better studied, but we know already from the human death rates that obesity is a significant comorbidity. Let me take you back now, to the NCRW, of those animals studied the single biggest health threat seen amongst the animals was snake obesity. There is no methodology to determine obesity in reptiles so statistics are not available. The college associated with the NCRW is developing a paper to address the issue. Elijah Snyder, on his webpage has a note on Nidovirus, a virulent respiratory disease in snakes, it is worth a look. “The order nidovirales, which includes coronaviradae, includes SARS, MERS, and covid19 as it appears in humans. Like their human counterparts far down the tree, the nidovirus infections experienced by reptiles cause an onset of respiratory distress which may be exacerbated by secondary infections. Even without secondary infection the disease is often lethal in many species of pythons”. It seems to me that Nidovirus familial traits exhibited can be validly read across from our knowledge of COVID, its causes and its treatments. If Vitamin D has been proven to be statistically significant in the management of the disease in humans then we would be foolish in ignoring the evidence when dealing with reptiles and respiratory diseases. Of course, no work has been done with reptiles on this matter; universities are closed and data is still emerging but what a great opportunity for a young herp scientist. Finally, why does obesity play a part? Well it seems body fat stores vitamin D and in doing so precludes its use in the body, it starves the body of vital protection. In addition, the layer of fat may well reduce the penetrative capability of warming infrared, and for effective D3 processing appropriate warmth is required. It is my view that Liam was entirely right in raising the subject and bringing it to the attention of the enlightened keeper; with time formal herpetological science will catch up. I have watched a long post develop and I agree my response is also long. The end. Roman Muryn
Part three Covid is a respiratory disease whose attack mechanism is becoming well understood otherwise we could not make the vaccine. Also better understood now are the co-morbidities. The lack of sufficient Vitamin D IS a condition with negative effects on the final health outcomes and addressing it reduces deaths. That has been proven. Now here is another interesting thing; in the quote from NICE above it states that obesity needs to be better studied, but we know already from the human death rates that obesity is a significant comorbidity. Let me take you back now, to the NCRW, of those animals studied the single biggest health threat seen amongst the animals was snake obesity. There is no methodology to determine obesity in reptiles so statistics are not available. The college associated with the NCRW is developing a paper to address the issue. Elijah Snyder, on his webpage has a note on Nidovirus, a virulent respiratory disease in snakes, it is worth a look. “The order nidovirales, which includes coronaviradae, includes SARS, MERS, and covid19 as it appears in humans. Like their human counterparts far down the tree, the nidovirus infections experienced by reptiles cause an onset of respiratory distress which may be exacerbated by secondary infections. Even without secondary infection the disease is often lethal in many species of pythons”. It seems to me that Nidovirus familial traits exhibited can be validly read across from our knowledge of COVID, its causes and its treatments. If Vitamin D has been proven to be statistically significant in the management of the disease in humans then we would be foolish in ignoring the evidence when dealing with reptiles and respiratory diseases. Of course, no work has been done with reptiles on this matter; universities are closed and data is still emerging but what a great opportunity for a young herp scientist. Finally, why does obesity play a part? Well it seems body fat stores vitamin D and in doing so precludes its use in the body, it starves the body of vital protection. In addition, the layer of fat may well reduce the penetrative capability of warming infrared, and for effective D3 processing appropriate warmth is required. It is my view that Liam was entirely right in raising the subject and bringing it to the attention of the enlightened keeper; with time formal herpetological science will catch up. I have watched a long post develop and I agree my response is also long. The end. Roman Muryn
Great podcast! I can see both sides, however I am working towards Liams ideas as i think racks are along the lines of puppy mills. All about the money and not about the animals.
I saw your posts about this on FB and was wondering who would jump in. I'm about halfway through it right now and I can only keep thinking that racks and traditional type caging both have their merits, but what I would like to see as an industry standard is a blend of the two. Racks made with larger tubs, lighting, etc. Of course what was mentioned about it being a consumer issue is absolutely true as it does drive the price of babies up and if a breeder can't sell animals produced at a higher cost for a reasonable profit because his competitors are still doing the bare minimum then they can't continue to breed.
Yep I would love to start seeing a hybrid of the two. The consumers drive that side as well... in other words, the consumers need to be willing to buy the hybridized racks as well. If they don't then companies won't make them. However, it's nice to see people adding more enrichment into their tub set ups!
One trying I think wasn’t hammered enough was how volume of captive bred reptiles is valuable. Just like the example of the “cobra food” as a result of importing, and the over harvesting of wild animals. A high volume breeder in a facility full of racks prevents the 1000 imports full of ticks and disease etc.
That's true. I don't think this debate lies so much with the high volume breeding practices... instead it's directed towards the high volume breeders touting that they have perfect husbandry i.e. "care for your snake like me and you'll have perfect welfare"
That's a good point. I think that high volume doesn't mean a free pass to give the bare minimum, which is why I said I think it's a consumer problem wanting animals as cheap as possible, if the breeder had wider margins they could potentially look at increasing welfare. Good point though. Like Dillon said my main gripe is people saying it's best for the animal, just say I'm doing this for x reason.
For the animals they keep, it very well MAY be the best of the best. The ammount of care, thought, planning and effort that goes into large scale breeding... they have they conditions down to a "T" coupled with years of experience.
I think it is possible that SOME snakes truly prefer seclusion, to be left alone. SOME prefer some handling, stimulation, "enrichement". I am new to breeding and hope to promote snakes as pets. I have observed that SOME of my snakes truly want to hide all day and be left alone. While SOME of them are engaging with me (beyond food) and "enjoy" interactions/ exploring. My belief is that like any animal, they have different temperments. I have some who, no matter what, do not like being held, while some do. Maybe enclosures should be adjusted to the individual snakes
If we wanted the best for the animals we would be trying to preserve habitats or slightly less optimal we could keep animals that are native to where we live and keep them in large cages outdoors. Planted glass cages are still cages.
Many places have made it illegal to buy and sell locally native animals to keep folks from over collecting, but unfortunately this means that if you want a snake native to your area and you know someone breeding them the only way you can get one legally is for them to give you one for free or to go out and collect one from the wild. Its an anti-captive breeding situation.
I just found your channel & I'm enjoying this so much! I just got my first Crested Gecko 2 weeks ago & after doing online research chose to go bioactive. My Viv turned out great & I loved making it & my little Elfi seems to enjoy it very much. There is so much conflicting info on keeping reptiles & as an animal lover I want the best for the animals under my care. Thank you for pushing animal welfare in the reptile community!
"There's a problem in the hobby where it's about how many you own, not the quality that you are keeping them" Never has there been more truth spoken. When I had a reptile rehoming centre I kept several stacks of 4 3ft by 2ft by 1.5 ft vivariums to house them. They had bulbs, branches, cork hides and water bowls but that was about it. Now I only keep 2 reptiles I can invest in much better enclosures. Hearing about people keeping 15 snakes in a tubs doesn't even seem like my hobby. It's like keeping a dog in a small room and leaving it there. It's wrong.
Exactly, the saddest part is people who run out and purchase 10 to 15 snakes because they want to get into breeding… And then burn out two years later and bring them all to a rescue. That story happens all the time.
Tell me about it. Had a pair of beardies, yellow bellied slides and leopard geckos from people who gave up breeding. Was so frustrating. In the UK we have a massive problem with "amateur" breeders. Most shops decent shops won't buy the babies anyway so the animals either end up in the least ethical shops (aquatics shops are a nightmare for this) or being dumped on the shops along with the parents. The babies might get sold but the parents might take years to resell (which of course is where people like me came in).
@@andyevans8585 Edit: I just re-read your comment and I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying your shops only buy from large breeders but what I'm getting now is that they only buy animals over a certain age. If that's correct, my comment is irrelevant (but I'll leave it up, because even if it's irrelevant, I feel it's worth mentioning). Original comment: So, your pet shops will only buy from large breeders? Are they aware that those are the ones most likely to use smaller, more basic tubs, to squeeze in an extra dozen animals? I'm not saying all "amateur" breeders are model keepers but someone with a dozen animals of one type is far more likely to do extra for them than someone with a thousand animals of dozens of types. I have four Ball Pythons (two handsome boys and two beautiful girls). I love them and while I don't have them in giant, bioactive vivariums, I also don't keep them in stark, basic tubs. I have mentioned to my local shop that I've considered breeding them. They know me and they know how I keep my snakes (through many long conversations about reptiles, whenever I stop by), so they offered to buy babies from me. They _only_ buy reptiles from small, local breeders who they have built good relationships with. To my mind, this is the best and most responsible way for pet shops to get these animals.
@TheCharleseye yeah you got me wrong. When I say amateur breeders I mean like the leopard geckos came to us from a 14 year old who thought it'd be fun to breed hers. Or the guy who kept 15 baby beardies in a 2ftx2ft vivarium and fed them a tub a week because "they were only small" and couldn't understand why they cannibalised each other. You don't need a bioactive viv to look after an animal; Lotus my 14 year old corn snake has never been in a bioactive, nor will she. Hunter, my asian water dragon however is. Its beneficial to him and not for lotus. Imo bioactive is great for some but actually dangerous for others. Breeding royals is always ethically difficult for me as the market is constantly overrun by them, but have had them myself I also understand why they are such a popular snake. Either way you clearly see them as your pets and not just a meal ticket so I doubt you'd do anything irresponsible like those I mentioned before 👌
I can appreciate the idea of conservation but let's be realistic. How many of the people at home that are keeping their animals in subpar condition, in tiny enclosures, if it can be even called back, are doing so for conservation purposes. Taking a small percentage of what is done to conserve a species, is not the problem. It's the growing amount of people that want is any as many animals as they can possibly fit in as small of an area as they can possibly fit. Breeders Sacrificing the quality of life for the animals in order to turn profit. And even worse, people that are just in the hobby, that see breeders doing it and think that therefore they are entitled to do it as part of their everyday hobby, they are the problem. but even in conservation, you can provide enrichment and A little space And if that is your main purpose, I'm pretty sure you can accommodate a little bit of both. Big big big big difference In the small amount of people out there attempting to preserve a species, and people that just don't want to Shell out the extra money or space to provide a proper home for their pet of the next 20 to 40 years potentially. They want to have a hundred and fifty animals when in reality if they were properly keeping, they probably would fit half of that. That may be a tough pill to swallow, but maybe you should just Have less animals. The topic will rage on and on and on until eventually things start getting taken away or they force the hand to step in and require guidelines. I would like to think that we could come up with a happy medium that would not require someone over our head stepping in, but as each day passes it Takes more and more of me to think that we are capable of that.
Yes it’s the drawn of keeping many animals in a small space that is certainly the issue. And I think you’re right, there are very very few people who are actually breeding for conservation purposes. Breeding for conservation takes a lot of work, DNA testing, proper pairing, etc.
they could definitely do something for conservation, if they would give a part of their money made by selling the animals to a conservation organisation 😉
Interesting video. I believe there’s no excuse for minimalistic keeping. Every animal deserves & needs the opportunity to have enrichment and hopefully thrive.
This may seem like a small point, and I think Michelle's set up for rubber boas is better than most, but they do actually climb trees in the wild. They would probably benefit from room to climb.
Would there be an issue with supplying the pet industry, if there were only "normals" available of each reptile available in the hobby? The race/excitement to find the next money making morph (especially ball pythons) drives many of the large scale breeders. Would keepers want 53 normal ball pythons in their rack system? I severely doubt it. Ultimately, humans are going to human, and the collectors mentality is going to supercede an animal's overall welfare nearly every single time.
Another great video! May I suggest that you do a video on whether reptiles have emotions? I’m thinking with a focus on snakes, but also comparing other reptiles too. I’ve heard conflicting info on this topic. Some say they do not have the part of the brain that generates emotions, therefore they cannot feel emotion. Those folks are also the ones who often bash people for anthropomorphizing their animals. Others say they do indeed have emotions and can express them in various, though often subtle, ways. I think it would be a great topic of discussion. If there isn’t enough content with just covering emotions, you could even touch on the brain in general and get into reptile intelligence and learning abilities too, though that could also be a separate video. Anyway, what do you think? I’d love to see it!
Thanks for watching the video, I’m glad you enjoyed it! I think that is an excellent idea for a video or maybe even a podcast… I know Lori Torrini’s has a ton of information on this topic. I will start brainstorming ideas of how to present it 👍🏼
Great debate, but this honesty makes me even more convinced that racks are not ethical. No matter what, they are a compromise of welfare in return for more production. It doesn’t seem worth it to me. And as for sanitary reasons, since I’ve gone bioactive, I have 1/4 the work. All I really need to do is spot clean and replenish the soil very infrequently. Don’t want to make this too long, but the argument that racks help some species feel more secure made me think, what is more secure: natural hiding places with mapped escape routes, and natural light cycles, or a dark drawer that gets randomly pulled out every few days? Of course, not hating on this person, just my opinion.
Personally I think the issue is there is such a clear distinction between keeper and breeder when really there isn't much difference. Personally I don't see how breeding animals at home as your hobby to supply a hobby can justify the major welfare issues caused by rack keeping. Especially when it is not conservation, some random person breeding royals, crestys even say indigo's is not a conservationists, not providing any conservation value (other then the argument of meeting demand with CB rather then people looking for WC if you have issues with WC). Will add this is a personal thing but I can't stand when someone breeds some random animals at home and say they're doing conservation work 😂 Rack keeping is purely out of laziness/to allow animal hording. And to try and make themselves feel better they try to say it's what the animal needs.
You nailed it at 46 min. The biggest hurdle I see in the snake community (esp. BP's) is that there is often 2 sides who claim that their way is the 1 and only wholy grail way of keeping snakes. This is not true. A tank, vivi, tub or rack is completely subjective
This was a very good discourse that's helped me to consider how to improve my own husbandry. Also I was unaware that UVB lighting could improve the husbandry of corn snakes and rosy boas (both of which I'm considering for my 1st snake in a couple/few years). Also you need more views.
Thank you, I have a video on uvb and snakes on my channel I think you'd like, lots of corn snake studies in it. I agree dillon totally deserves more views
Interesting takes. I think it is easier to meet the basic needs of some reptiles in a rack but it is good to aspire to keep all reptiles in well designed naturalistic enclosures. There is more room for mistakes in a complex enclosure.
Hi Dillon. First of all let me say I love your podcast. Found them a few weeks back and really enjoy them. I am for sure on the viv side of the hobby. Providing as much of a natural environment as possible. I am also for providing as big of a enclosure as you possibly can for them. I am not satisfied with minimum size enclosures for the animals. It is our responsibility as reptile keepers to care for these beautiful creatures the best we can. To continue to develop and advance. By becoming stagnate you are doing yourself any favors but more important the animals suffers for it. I love these creatures and want to take the best care I can for them and that does require continuing to learn and advance. I am not bashing anyone that keeps reptiles in racks or anything but had to through where I stand on the issue is. So many people in the hobby think they know enough but enough is never enough. These animals deserve the best care and it is our responsibility to provide that for them. The debate was great and both were very respectful. Love that. Keep up the good work and look forward to more of your podcast in the future.
At 30:00 when they're talking about people wanting pythons only to be £30. That's not true at all. They are only that cheap because perusing new morphs create an surplus supply of undesirable wild type or old morph animals. It's an easy fix, keep a diverse collection and prices are a lot more stable
I really do hope people appreciate the mental and emotional toll this discourse takes on a person lol nobody can even look at that title without getting triggered I bet haha but it is still (frustratingly) perhaps the most talked about topic in the hobby/industry. Listened to some of it on my break but will definitely watch the whole episode soon! Great content as always!
Yeah it's interesting... some people roll their eyes at this debate "ugh not this topic again" However, like you said, it still triggers most people, which as far as I am concerned is a sign that we aren't done having this conversation! Enjoy the episode!
Very important discussion that should continue, despite discomfort. Vivi ppl need to respect the decades of experience that rack ppl have keeping, raising and maintaining these animals, while rack ppl need to be open to new and possibly "better" adjustments that can be made
@@toeachitsown2050 Absolutely. I think people are too ready to take sides and I find that is way too common of an approach to things. Not enough people are prepared to even consider a middle ground unfortunately, let alone consider another perspective. But hopefully the more these kinds of discussions take place, progress can be made.
Lastly, on the issue of providing a snake the ability to perform natural abilities is vital for welfare, would we consider someone who doesn’t breed snakes as not fulfilling that natural aspect and not having met the requirement of proper welfare?
Great question! I know Francis Cosquieri lets his snakes breed for that very reason! The takes us into the territory of what we discussed on the second round table, "Are all Natural Behaviors Necessary to Achieve Welfare?"
@@ReptilesandResearch excellent. Yes of course, like, subscribe, and check out our previous videos ;) you’re right. I do remember that discussion and I don’t know if you had the extra 3 hours to plug into this debate lol.
Some deeper and better sized bins would do wonders for the husbandry you can accomplish in a rack system. Frankly, limiting rack systems to whatever tubs you can find at a box store is such an archaic mindset for such a large industry... and opaque bins need to die.
Except SOME snakes prefer opaque bins. I have one that I am buying one for because I think she will be more comfortable in it. Why not cater housing to the snake as an individual?
@@stefaniasexoticaladventure9019 yes... but if we were stern on "banning tubs, esp. Opaque ones" MANY snakes like her would suffer... to be honest. To call it archaic is very judgmental when a LOT of snakes feel much safer in opaque tubs beyond any other housing. Most keepers, breeders included, DO think of the snakes
As a species we are masters of rationalizing the crap things we do. Take a step back from the issue and try to look at it without your personal bias... reptiles are complex creatures that evolved in nature with a multitude of stimuli in their everyday, so why would it be okay to put them in the equivalent of a sensory deprivation tank. It's pretty awesome that we're finally encouraging keepers and breeders to do better.
That exact same rationalization can be used to argue that we shouldn't keep any animals for any reason. We cannot duplicate the wild, no matter how much PVC, gorilla glue, and cork bark we use. There are those who would argue that a bioactive enclosure is nothing more than a really big stick and a really big leaf in a really big jar. Exactly how much _are_ we doing for an animal that is confined to a four foot box, instead of the seemingly endless environment it belongs in? Perhaps, at the end of the day, we're spending thousands of dollars to make ourselves feel moral. We are, after all, masters of rationalizing the crap things we do...
Definitely agree there dude! Keeping that animal from the full enrichment of the wild is a major decision... I also know that nature kind of sucks if you're a snake, so the animal may well live a better life in captivity. If the choice to keep them in captivity is made, I personally feel a deep responsibility to the animal to keep them mentally and physically healthy. I spend a ridiculous amount of time with my snakes, because I recognize that the most engaged and active time they spend in a day is the time outside of their vivs. I have four snakes, and they all spend time out of their enclosures daily, or almost daily, exploring my lawn in better weather, and hanging out on window sills, or in various boxes and house plants or climbing around in my hands and on my shoulders as I talk to them in low tones. When they go back in their tanks, they need as many stimuli in there as possible, and I have all my vivs set up in front of windows, which they all spend hours looking out of. I only have four snakes and I honestly don't think I have enough time (or windows) to dedicate to another right now. Leave them in the wild unless you can give them an awesome life in captivity is my thinking.
@@bobmosh4970 I will definitely agree that snakes have a better life in captivity. We didn't spend thousands of years going from mud huts up through to insulated homes with central heat and AC because the wild is such an inviting place. It's why people spend so much money on exterminators. Most land-dwelling creatures - great and small - _want_ to live where the temperature is stable, the food is plentiful, the predators are nonexistent, and someone cleans up after them. Growing up, my grandfather's cellar had no fewer than fifteen garter snakes living in it at any time. Animals do love our modern caves. My point is simply that everyone's standard for care is based on their own belief about what a given animal needs. I have four snakes as well (those boring Ball Pythons that have become so passé...but I love them). I dare say they don't live the way yours do. My personal belief is that one can over-handle a Ball Python, so mine come out only a few times/week. They have room to stretch out in their enclosures and they have enrichment but I won't be entering any vivarium competitions real soon. I'm willing to bet your snakes are doing fine. Mine are, too. Many newer breeders would tell us we're keeping our snakes all wrong. PETA would burn both our homes to the ground if it meant there were fewer "evil" reptile keepers in the world. I'll say this, though. Most breeders don't tend to create large numbers of dead/dying reptiles. Neither do conscientious keepers. The ones who tend to stack bodies are the masses of people who walk into a pet store with a couple hundred dollars in their pocket and walk out with a new pet reptile and a 10 gallon fish tank. Personally, I think both sides should work together to deal with that problem first (since it's causing the most animal suffering) and then maybe use that common ground to come to an understanding about other things.
I have garter snakes and northern red belly snakes, which are communal and naturally social snakes, so my experience with them is undoubtedly going to differ from yours with ambush predators like boas and pythons... i would agree that hanging out with them as much as I do, is probably a bad idea. I just think that it's important to remember that all snakes need something to do and enough stimuli or their brains start to atrophy. I don't think bio active is the be all end all of good husbandry, because you can definitely make something bio active without making it engaging for the animal. Sounds like you love your snakes dude, so I bet they're living a great life! Have a great one!
Imho, the answer was alluded to in the first one minute, 'to meet the demands...'. That outlook leads to factories. I do understand that my 2 fire BP possibly came from a rack. It's a really tricky one. Maybe there are some reptiles that definitely should not be kept in rack?
There are a LOT of reptiles who should never be kept in racks. I think ball pythons tend to be the snake whose natural inclinations match racks best; therefore, they tend to do well and there is a lot of debate over it
Breeders could devote more space and enrichment to their animals if they cost more, or not over produce and still make a living. In general, I would say pet reptiles don't cost enough. We vote with our dollars, spend more on animals that come from high welfare standards and support those breeders that have an eye on progressing their care.
I like this thinking. If someone will spend 2k for a designer puppy, why not a pet snake? Fyi, "designer" well bred snakes most definately cost thousands.
Hi, Dillon. Hope you are well. In my view, both racks and terrariums have its benefits and down sides. It depends on the purpose of the reptile keeping. If racks are less natural and bring all the issues of not keeping reptiles in a close-to-natural-as-possible-enclosure in terms of their wellfare, on the other hand, it is much more manageable in terms of assuring animal wellfare and higiene when you have a lot of animals to manage with. On the other side, terrariums ( when well kept and replicating the most natural environment as possible ) will definitely reduce the probability of stress impacted issues and will promote natural behaviour and animal wellfare and, also, make observational knowledge gathering and research possible. On the top of all that, terrariums promote having pleasure caring for your pet and, therefore, improves your willing to engage in protecting your pet in a lifelong commitement. In the end, I'm not on the side of rack keeping because I rather know my pets and let them "speak" to me, engage with them and give them those fair natural conditions they have the right to have and be treated as well as a human being or any other living being. Besides, I think that the environmental influence on reptiles has been totally overlooked. We still barely know how much the environment around a reptile will impact it in terms of stress levels and health in general. In my experience, I can tell some species are more sensitive to that than others and that can really make the diference between life and death. Therefore, I don't believe in keeping all reptiles in the same way and keeping them in enclosures without any basking areas and without customized sizes and areas according to the species in question. It is just not healthy, scientific and "humane", no matter what rack keepers say. It just doesn't make any sense apart from the distorted way some people look at reptiles. When it comes to breeding reptiles, people have the obligation to choose species with requirements they can cope with, without putting their animal's wellfare in danger. You just have to be mature and responsable enough to choose a species that you can breed in a number of terrariums you can manage to have in order to deserve to be a reptile keeper and/or breeder. In adiction, it would also help a lot if authorities and governments would check on the ways breeders and sellers are breeding and importing the reptiles they sell. In the end, it is just sad that so many people are so prone to keep and breed reptiles in racks just because they saw RUclipsrs doing it and it turn into fashion. As always, in the end, when it comes to the relationship between animals and people, the firsts almost always suffer much more. My regards. Paulo from Portugal
True. They don't get to run from predators, take to high ground to avoid floods, freeze, starve, get slowly eaten by various parasites...it's truly a terrible existence.
@Charles Eye im still right. And maybe you don't get to decide what a free being would choose. Are you saying that the safety od captivity outweighs the danger of freedom?
What's really needed is a new set of studies into how the common snakes kept (Royal pythons, Corns and Boa's) live their lives in the wild. More on observing behaviour, range they move around, activity etc to put some of these old wives tales to bed. For ages those that keep Royals in racks 24/7 use the "well they are nocturnal and live in rodent burrows and in termite mounds" when in reality they've been found in trees and active above ground. The thing is, as touched in the video is definition of how they are kept. My hatchling rack uses clear tubs. The tubs have substrate and two hides in each. The rack has LED lighting above on a timer to boost the natural light and give a photoperiod. No commercial rack system have lighting fitted, and if you are saying that this is not meeting with the list of items under the welfare acts then why are they allowed to produce them in the sizes and manor as they are. What does upset me is seeing people keeping Royals in racks where already small tubs are then fitted with dividers, and the reason given is because these snakes love tight spaces to feel secure. It's clear to anyone with half a brain that it's simply to cram more in to a collection in a given space. Not saying that Michelle is one of those, there are plenty examples on YT. Excellent debate, and one that will continue to ramble on until governments step in and make clear definitions on size and methods employed to keep these animals. Thank you Michelle and Liam for agreeing to discuss this controversial topic.
@@horsemanshipper but most were conducted several decades ago, and were more censuses than studies. There was a recent one though which proved Royals would climb trees and ate birds and mammals that never venture to the ground, which blows the argument of them being almost subterranean out of the water !
@@MalcolmCrabbe there are performed some pretty decent studies to their natural behaviors that shows us the majority. This in no way means we know the animal perfectly. But every study done (of which a few lasting several years) shows the same big behaviors and their ratios like 90% hiding, 10% active. Activity levels 70% at night and 30% during the day, basking at entrances of burrows and cryptic basking, climbing. They are decent enough to know those things for a fact. In fact one research article uses data from a 5 year taking radiotracker study. I don't know which one exactly though. Just because they're done decades ago, doesn't mean they're wrong or outdated. And if there are several supporting each others findings, I do think that shows pretty accurately how they live in general. But unless future research shows all available studies until now are flukes, which would be highly unlikely, it remains up to date and conclusive. Not to say that I wouldn't love to see more studies and more detailed studies as I absolutely would love that. But I do think there is enough information and evidence to show major behaviors. I mean if they are regularly seen doing it, then it is a natural behavior, no matter if there is one study done in the course of a week or a hundred in the course of half a century. Because the behaviors simply happen. Btw, there are some studies in captivity too such as "Spatial considerations for captive snakes" which shows that most species of snakes (including Python regius) perform rectilinear forward motion when given the opportunity in even a very short observational time, let alone if they observed for months. Another one: "Stress associated with handling Python regius" This one shows that also in captivity, when given light, they have a roughly 70% night time activity and 30% day time activity which also again is supporting the finding of previous research articles. Then we have studies in other snakes too that show increased enclosure size and enrichment is good: "Effects of Habitat Modifications on Behavioral Indicators of Welfare for Madagascar Giant Hognose Snakes (Leioheterodon madagascariensis)" So I feel that it has more to do with whether or not people are biased. If they choose to ignore the available studies, honestly they will try to find ways around future research articles too. There is always something you can say about every article. And the people who completely twist and decontextualize things from current studies will keep doing that with future studies too. So I feel that it's more the people that are the problem and not the study. After all you have people who claim the earth is flat or hollow or moon landings are fake. They too choose to ignore all evidence that doesn't fit their view or twist certain parts. Anyway, people who want to ignore parts of research or even complete articles will keep doing so. Science deniers will always exist.
Anyone who thinks reptiles have no emotions whatsoever have never observed the eyes of a blue tongue skink when you present it with its favorite treat! I don't know how smart a snake is exactly (I've only owned lizards), but I would be EXTREMELY wary of the claim that they can thrive in a barren box with nothing but a thin layer of substrate and water dish all their life. Humans have a very long record of being absolutely terrible at judging the intelligence/needs of other creatures. Heck our track record of recognizing even OTHER human beings as being equally intelligent and emotional (and deserving of the same rights) is pretty bloody abysmal...
This conversation in a nutshell: Keeper: Undersized, bare tubs are bad. Breeder: Yup. Keeper: Breeders that keep reptiles that way should do better. Breeder: True. Keeper: It's really important. Breeder: Agreed.
l have been saying they racks are a necessary evil, so it is not the ever going to be those that use them are not caring for them properly and l get the same stock answer that they prefer living like this. it is a culture within the BP community more l think any other species that preaches they like tubs more then enclosures, which is not true at all. l certainly see you can improve as a breeder but it is a matter of how could they do this. Adding some enrichment, yes is great to add to a tub, possibly for a smaller species but when l am seeing Carpets, Retics, Burms etc, this l feel is so not right for their welfare. They are a product rather then a living animal and they are disposible. Time to take a couple years off from breeding BPs and Cornsnakes l think, make that a rule. ARS and Freedom Breeder need to start making racks that you can provide all that a snake needs.
Yes, you make an excellent point! SMALL species. The fact that breeder burms, retics, etc. have been also subjected to racks/tubs is ridiculous. People are slowly moving away from rack system for the large animals.... but it was that long ago when people justified their use by saying "this is all the burm needs, they barely move in the wild". Sounds similar to what we hear nowadays with BPs. I'm hoping the rack companies start to innovate soon!
All I hear when supporters of rack systems defend their case is "I'm too lazy and cheap to properly look after my animals, I couldn't possibly spend that much on husbandry because I wouldn't make any money from breeding." I'm with Tom Crutchfield on this one. Great debate though. A rare thing these days. 👍🏻
@@ElijahSnyder I am new to the reptile hobby, and so I am genuinely curious: how do racks help prevent disease? I understand that they are easy to clean and disinfect, but if you have multiple animals in close proximity, doesn't that increase the chances for disease transmission through the whole rack? Again, I am just trying to better understand. Thanks!
@@ElijahSnyder This makes a lot of sense for mites, in terms of easily wiping down the enclosure. I am also sure it is easier to visually spot mites in a rack/tub system, especially if you use paper towel or white newsprint paper as your substrate. One of my biggest concerns though, especially with ball pythons, is nidovirus. Again, my knowledge at this time is, admittedly, limited, but nidovirus is more difficult to identify and diagnose, meaning that by the time one animal shows symptoms, several may be infected. Isn't this more likely to happen in racks? Especially when airflow is limited? Again, I am just trying to understand. It sounds like a nightmare scenario for any reptile keeper, and I struggle to imagine where one would even begin with such an outbreak.
@@ElijahSnyder "You'll often see me ride Liam in the comments because he refuses to acknowledge diseases like nidovirus and adenovirus. :)" Or the fact I havnt done any videos on them yet, your version of refuses to acknowledge is he hasnt made the videos I want when i want so therefore hes trying to pretend they dont exist. This is so stupid, Dillon already said you made videos internally, just upload them. You told him you are too busy, the rest of us are busy. I dont know why you cant understand that other people are also busy. I've already explained to you that I will do it after I finish my degree and I cant dedicate time to getting it right. Its not a hard concept to grasp. This conversation goes like this every time: Why dont you make a video now? I dont have time. Why dont you make a video now? I dont have time. Why dont you make a video now? I dont have time. Why dont you make a video now? I dont have time. Why dont you make a video yourself elijah? Oh I dont have time. *Really?* 3 months later: Why havnt you made the video? Already said I will after Uni. Ive already said I *Will* This is exactly how you get yourself banned from channels because you hound people over and over again to the point they want nothing to do with you when youve already been given an answer.
@@ElijahSnyder We already established a animal with a disease has poor welfare no matter how its housed, the point of the debate was the welfare of racks on permanently housing healthy animals. "You're literally named Reptiles and Research and failed to research adenovirus and nidovirus" Already told you that I will, dont know what you want from me other than you want me to do it right now. You say such ridiculous things with such confidence. Again you take things and exaggerate them and attack your exaggerations. Stop it. You dont give Dillon a hard time because he hasnt made videos about adenovirus, because its your problem with me. Leave it out. Make videos about Nido then, thats what weve been saying the whole time.
@@ElijahSnyder I don't favor a RUclipsr lmao I'm just saying as permeant housing its unethical but they are decently good tools for breeding and producing.
@@ElijahSnyder I don't breed. Never wanted too. I only make Viv's and keep a variety of different species and all snakes are sourced from someone reliable. All animals are quarantined.
@@ElijahSnyder you do realize that disease is a separate topic regardless of housing right? In fact, most disease are transmit through unsanitary rack systems than vivariums.
The breeder racks vs keeper racks categories are a garbage side issue. Racks and vivariums have both been around for as long as people have been keeping snakes, uvB isn’t anything new either. Racks have just as long of a documented history of successfully keeping snakes as vivariums do. IRC heat pads will heat a snake up to temperature just like IRA halogens will heat a snake up to temperature. Give your snakes an ethical amount of space and as much enrichment as you can cram into that space, nobody will ever be able to tell if it’s been in a rack or vivarium.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Well aware of the differences, have read and discussed the research on plenty of groups. What I don’t buy into is that irC magically doesn’t heat the organs of ectothermic animals. That a snake on a heat mat isn’t going to be as quickly and effectively heated as under a halogen? Sure, no disagreements there as long as your snake uses the halogen basking area. However a snake in a captive environment has all the time it needs to lay on that heat mat until it gets to temp. From what I’ve observed from my snakes that do have heat mats, it doesn’t take all that long for them to get warmed up. It’s not like we see captive snakes struggling to thermo-regulate and never leaving their heat mats (when all other parameters are proper). It’s pretty easy to argue that halogens are “better” at heating snakes, but they’re certainly not the only viable option.
@@danyalthompson6190 No question heat mats are still capable of warming a reptile. I think many of our reptiles would survive just fine without supplementary heat entirely (I'm not saying that would be beneficial, I've just come across many "rescue" situations where a snake has not had access to heat for years and is still living). Heat mats will warm up a reptile through conduction slowly over time (the outer skin will warm, then inner skin, then capillary tissue, etc,. etc.), as you said, captive snakes have all the time in the world, but, as soon as the snake leaves its heat mat its body temperature will begin to drop immediately i.e. the steady heat source is required to maintain temperature. When an animal is being heated with an IR-A heat source, its body is literally being injected with energy, this causes IR-C wavelengths of energy to become trapped within the body cavity and the animal can maintain temperature after leaving the heat source for much, much longer. It's the difference between having a theoretical electronic device that needs to be plugged in, versus one that has a battery-at the outlet site both devices are similar, but the device that contains the battery is capable of leaving the charging station. Also, that doesn't include the other well-known benefits of IR-A such as tissue healing, activation of mitochondria to produce more ATP (giving the animal more energy), allows for far better digestion/absorption, etc. Halogen light is a far more bioavailable and healthy form of heat energy. I try and provide my animals with both a halogen and heat mat, that way they can choose where/how they want to bask.
Thanks for listening Erika! I was just checking up on your shirt order... it looks like it still hasn't arrived, everything is extremely backed-up due to COVID slowdowns. I'm really hoping you receive it in the next couple of weeks, thanks for your patience :)
Heres the deal. Racks are necessary if breeding on a large scale is what you're doing. If you have a handful of snakes, give them vivs why not. If you were to say ban racks, you will kill the hobby for common keepers. With fewer animals on the market, people will turn to more economical options as far as getting into a hobby. Kill racks and kill the hobby. Availability goes down price goes up. Look dumerils boas and mbks. Prices thru the roof. Honestly posting videos like this is very detrimental to the hobby as a whole. Lawmakers are looking for things like this to push laws to ban reptiles. Check out usark.org its happening now. Stop creating division among keepers, we have to stand together now more than ever. Vivs are ideal for the hobbyist but not the breeder.
Right. The consensus of this conversation was that breeders need to admit that rack breeding is a necessary evil and that they are sacrificing welfare to keep their colony clean and healthy in order to produce animals for the hobby (which is fair enough). They should not be telling keepers that a tub, and a water dish is gold standard care, which they do all the time. “Snakes are a cheap pet, All you need is a tub, deli cup and a heat mat” is not the message that should be sent to keepers and it also happens to be the most common thing AR groups attack the hobby for (I.e. seeing reptiles kept in enclosures that are too small). So in my opinion, conversations like this progress the hobby forward rather than divide us.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast i think new wannabe keepers need to realize. If you dont have the money for a good setup, you shouldn't buy the animal. Same with anything, dont buy a german Shepard if you dont have the space. Im on board with you there. No reason a person with 4 snakes shouldnt have larger sized vivs for the animals. People are cheap especially reptile keepers it seems. Again, from a breeders standpoint, even if they agreed with your stance, they couldnt admit it. No one wants to paint their livelihood in a less than ideal light. Id focus on educating new keepers on good keeping practices because are a lost cause imo. We need to kill live feeding videos also, that hurts our cause as well imo.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Okay, I'm gonna address this one from the world of Ball Pythons, because that's the world I'm living in. The whole deal with breeders telling people to keep BPs in tubs started (and continues) as a band-aid to another problem, entirely. When I first decided to look into getting a BP, I started researching like crazy (as I do with absolutely anything I get into, because I'm an obsessive personality type). The patterns in the hobby became glaringly obvious: The _vast_ majority of people buy pets, start having problems, _then_ start researching the animal's care, properly. Go to any reptile forum and you'll find endless queries about BPs not eating, not shedding properly, and/or wheezing. Scratch the surface and you find the same thing, over and over again. People who went to the pet store, picked out a BP, bought a cheap "reptile kit" (consisting of an aquarium, a heat lamp or rock, a half-round log, and a water dish) and went home thinking they were all set. Then, when the inevitable happens, they take to the forums or to RUclips to find out why. This leads to the breeders' interactions. They get bombarded - day in and day out - with the same, exact questions that have the same, exact answers. Nobody wants to hear that their $99 snake is going to cost them hundreds of dollars more to house properly. The breeders aren't looking to let a snake suffer while they argue with someone who didn't even care enough about the animal to do ten minutes of research on it. What's the answer? To tell them to go out and spend about $80-$100 on something that will _at least_ meet the animal's basic needs for the next year, before these people inevitably get bored/frustrated and sell their BPs to someone else. This basic care advice became gospel because it works. The BPs go back to eating, their sheds come off, and they breathe better. It became concreted in people's minds that this is the _only_ way to keep Ball Pythons successfully, and that any deviation from such is harmful to the snakes. That has continued to build and build, while new breeders enter the market who truly believe this (after all, it's what everyone tells people to do, to keep their BPs healthy). You can't get people to admit that what they're doing is a necessary evil because they will refuse to see it as any kind of evil. After all, this is the exact care that has saved countless BPs from their "ignorant keepers." The only way forward is to show them that doing things differently is _not_ evil (as many seem to think) and that doing more for their animals will give them better results. Most breeders want to breed and sell healthy BPs. Most keepers (sadly) want to buy little Tommy something "cool" to sit on his dresser. Both need to be guided away from their current stances on care - in a manner that doesn't lead to major push-back - or we're just going in circles. The root cause of all of this drama is the pet stores (and the ignorant masses who buy things without thinking, but that's unavoidable). If BPs were being sold with proper setups, there would be fewer health issues. Fewer health issues leads to fewer people telling others to move their snakes into tubs and reinforcing that as the ideal care. Fewer BPs in tubs means more posts and videos by people proudly keeping healthy BPs in enclosures with enrichment. More posts and videos of that is more proof that it should be the rule, not the exception. Petition pet stores to sell only proper setups for a given reptile. Boycott those that don't. Call them out on social media. Make it loud and post it everywhere. Breeders who want healthy reptiles fighting with keepers who want healthy reptiles won't get us anywhere.
You chose a reasonable rack keeper though that could discuss normally. Or maybe she self-selected. On the other side hobbyists with a British background come a little as sanctimonious and moralistic.
@ Brock, To compare a rack system to a prison demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how some species of reptiles and amphibians interact with their environment and what their needs in captivity are. If you are going to go as far as to use a very human like experience such as a prison, you have to reflect that back onto the animals own needs and what it values in life. If I take an animal like a Ball Python for example, and ask myself, "What are this animals needs and desires", or, "What does this animal value in life", it can be simplified but not completely limited to a few things: clean living conditions, clean water, proper temperatures, and enough space to move around and exercise proper movement. The ability to breed would also be a good one to add as well. If a rack meets these requirements for certain animals, how can you classify that as a prison? While we would love it to be that in nature, reptiles and amphibians are just moving through their environment in the open space smelling the beautiful flowers and looking up at the blue sky, this is not so. Besides a few exceptions, most ground dwelling reptiles spend most of their time hiding from predators in small spaces fearing for their lives. When we keep these animals in a captive setting, we have to look at their setup from their view and their needs, not ours. While not all species do great in racks, you cannot accurately say that rack systems are always bad. If they are done properly, and used for the right species, they can be just as good if not better than a typical naturalistic setup.
That was not the impression I got at all... Michelle seemed very well-versed in her scholarly knowledge of snake intelligence. She described a vast variety of ways in which she strives to provide enrichment to her animals, including target training even! Furthermore, she seemed to have more hands-on experience with a wider variety of snake species than Liam. I am not saying this to dismiss the resources Liam cited during his moments of the debate. Rather, I felt like both Liam and Michelle had different perspectives to bring to the table and that they were "equally matched" in their amount of knowledge - they simply brought different TYPES of knowledge to the table. And isn't that the point of debate? To present multiple perspectives of an issue for the sake of better understanding? In any case, I don't think it is fair to Michelle to label her as an "obvious non-scholar." Her desire to access and read the studies Liam was citing towards the end is a testament to her own scholarly inclinations. I felt like she brought several insightful points to the table that made for a nuanced and dynamic discussion. If anything, it would be beneficial to have a part two of this debate between Liam and Michelle. Give them both time to reflect on this debate, reassess their arguments, and then return to the table.
@@caryelizabeth624 don't misunderstand, I think she's the more seasoned keeper with a much more vast working knowledge of the animals. I just didn't enjoy the tone directed at her.
It really does feel like she's coming into this uninformed and selfish. She keeps arguing she's doing the best she can while maximising her profit but as was said, animals shouldn't be this cheap to buy. Especially exotic ones which require specialist care, instead of selling 20 different species focus on 5 and make sure they got the best welfare they can rather than locking them into a dark tub for their life. Throughout the episode all I heard was her trying to excuse the poor standards breeders popularised to have a "collection" of reptiles rather than few individuals that are well taken care of.
Royals are one of the few snakes species that are actually well suited for a rack environment. they like the tighter spaces, they need to thermo-regulate. They require a level of humidity that is best replicated in this set up. As far as enrichment goes they require very little. A ball python's brain takes care of the bare necessity's so it only need a few things to remain happy and healthy, whereas a retic for example has a much higher emotional intellect therefor, there are more demands that have to be meet in order for a snake with a higher emotional IQ to be sustained as far as sufficient enrichment. In leman's royals are dumb :) haha (we see the same in different spices of dogs i.e a Border Collie intelligence next to a staffy for example is night and day.) Admittedly, the semi-arboreal tendencies of royals, (I think to call them that is still a big stretch but for arguments sake lets call them that..) are not meet in a rack nor are the beneficial factors of UVB. yet in a VIV set up you are not ticking the boxes for security, ambiance (balancing humidity under a ceramic is a nightmare). So when you balance the Pros and Cons for Rack vs VIVs, Royals favour Racks by quite a considerable margin. so for purely just Royals,.. Rack systems are the better option for this species, it just so happens that Racks are also more convenient for the breeder too which is where alot of people have the problem, and its one of fundamentals that makes them so popular. My animals Eat, Breed and Thrive in rack systems and my surplus that find themselves under someone else's care in a VIV set up tend to regress. I must stress on I'm only supporting Racks for royals, as I feel their species specific requirements better atone for the environment rack system provided. all that said the industry awaits rack systems with built in UVB lighting that would be a huge leap forwards.
Would you mind citing your sources for this information? I would really appreciate reading the research supporting the information you’ve posted. I am doing behavioral research into several species of snakes. I also research cognition and will post some links to published data about snake brain structure, neurochemical production in snake brains, and MRI images of the brain of Python regius in an additional comment. The study below is relevant to the specific topic of this podcast episode: www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.02.429328v1.full The small experiment we conducted here with two Python regius concur with this study. Stereotypies were observed in rack-style tubs during times the snakes were awake. When given the choice and control to move between the tub and fully furnished habitat, both snakes moved into the habitat, stereotypies extinguished, and species typical behaviors of burrowing, climbing, spending time in damp moss, semi-arboreal ambush posture on perches, and resting on ledges were observed.
Reptile brains including those of snakes share the same vertebrate brain plan as all vertebrates with the same or homologous structures as other vertebrates and mammals. Snake brains produce dopamine and other neurochemicals produced by the nervous system of other vertebrates, the specific study on snakes was actually done on Python regius. The Python regius brain as well as the brains of other reptile species has been scanned using MRI technology and publicly available to view. The chemical we know oxytocin is found in all mammals, but it’s part of an ancient group of chemicals found throughout the animal kingdom. Octopuses have their own version, as do birds and reptiles (mesotocin) and fish (isotocin) National Geographic, 2012). Link to snake brain structure: lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/The%20reptilian%20brain.pdf?token=AWzlIgltrVjOor75vwqGBsAWWubkrgyZvoEWiSUOPE7_blemwFHf5AfcxyTSMwbmqXBQjbZmDUKuBqHkY_b0Hkc7F-Z3j0lrJtD_9YaAaUj5CrIHG8HzXTQNGWOMydcEFOi3FKYlqIvf-_8eP-5vTbT9s7Ykh-jQhbH00krNaodcmfhp3Hvj4h0dW-lD-GB0F23co55vCbhU3iaR8x47UT5t Link to dopamine study in Royal Pythons: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3385007/ Link to images of Python regius brains: zenodo.org/record/3626697#.YB8FKqRHYlQ Link to one of several studies regarding emotion emerging in reptiles paving the way for its development in mammals: www.researchgate.net/publication/13079527_Emotion_and_Phylogeny
*Thank you for listening! Where do you sit on this issue? Do breeding animals get a pass? Is rack-style husbandry gold standard for some species? Let us know in the comments below!* 👇
I'm on viv keepers side. Rack systems don't provide the snakes the necessary enrichment that terrariums and vivariums provide. Racks in my opinion should only be used for quarantine or breeding purposes only.
I'm with Liam on the the subject of better enclosure. Makes more logical sense. But I appreciate the woman's position and thought she defending her position well. And for her particularly, she may be doing well. But most breeders don't have her mindset. When she speaks it doesn't seem like an addiction. I can examine her motive.
I also want to thank Michelle so very much for her time and for her humble approach to all of this.
@@Roy_Camacho I agree entirely, she was so polite and was a great example of someone who knows how to debate without being rude.
You can provide "enrichement" in AND out of a rack.
Thanks for having us on, was a great conversation!
My pleasure! 🙏🏻
Excellent conversation! Unfortunately Michelle doesn't come close to being representative of rack keepers. I suspect this is why she was willing to talk. I work with African Fat tails in the US, and mass breeders run the biggest AFT groups on FB. These breeders defend their racks and lack of substrate to the point of stopping others from promoting good welfare for the animal. They take the "avoiding the negative" that Liam describes to an extreme. They promote keeping that offers nothing for the gecko under the guise of "keeping it safe." An interesting pattern I've noticed is, specifically with AFTs, they're keeping habits actually cause a negative effect, stuck sheds. They insist that an AFT is an "arid species" despite available research articles to the contrary. They refuse to give anything but a single humid hide, and then need monthly interventions to help the animal shed. Talk about not being allowed natural behaviors, they can't even shed on their own. And doing this to their own animals would be bad enough, but they run the FB groups and insist to beginner after beginner that not keeping animals this way will hurt them. To the point of absolutely terrifying them.
It needs to stop
Also, the prices are so low because of competing with imports all this time. Raise the cost of imports to the level that only breeders can afford them. Make sure most of that money makes it to the hands of the locals who catch the animals. This will decrease the pressure to capture quantity, as the increased price should limit demand. This will also incentivise importing in a more ethical way so more animals will survive shipping
Yes very well said! "Unfortunately Michelle doesn't come close to being representative of rack keepers. I suspect this is why she was willing to talk." Absolutely correct!
I would love to see a conversation between Liam and Emily from Snake Discovery, that would be a show.
Not to be rude but this channel has less views total than Snake Discovery has on their least popular video. I doubt Emily would care to debate anyone on anything, they have a successful channel, it would be see as this channel coat tailing for clicks.
@@KachuhzKachCan thanks for your input I guess, Emily seems like a pretty reasonable smart person. Personally I think she would hear out someone else's opinion and have a reasonable discussion. She's done it before with other smaller channels.
@@connerjones9572 true but with a channel the size of hers, shes need monetary compensation id think.
@@KachuhzKachCan maybe you're right, I was just saying I'd love to see a conversation between them not really considering the logistics
@@connerjones9572 im not sure how much of an expert emily is. Success doesnt equate to knowledge imo. Clint from clints reptiles would be a good one. Hes a biology professor. Jeff from great basin serpentarium would be good also. Hes a ph.D in zoology
There is no need to “supply the industry” or “meet the demand”. Using racks outside of quarantine, medical treatment or hatchlings is not appropriate. Reptile mill breeders will always justify it.
Exactly, the only thing that would change if racks were banned would be the amount of money the breeders would make. The snakes could become more expensive to accommodate this and that would be fine.
Nicely done! Now, lets move past this breeder standard care for all pet reptiles!
so my take on racks, is that the prevalence of racks and the morph market are two sides of the same coin. there is a lot of people, especially hobby level, that treat morphs like gambling. so to increase the odds of getting a higher value morph you get more animals to start from. then they end up with piles of snakes that didnt work out and nobody wants so they either have to house them or dispose of them. i have genuinely heard that people want one particular morph, but its too expensive to buy. so they have then bought several snakes with less desirable genetics in order to eventually get that snake. so they wanted one snake, and instead they bought many that they didnt want or have the space for and as such they force themselves into needing a rack. regardless of the false economy of that situation its the kind of thing that happens with multi morph species, and scale is the best way to mess with it. if that person had just bought the snake they wanted to begin with then maybe they would not have found themselves cramming animals into sub par conditions in order to squeeze them into one room.
racks and morphs are not mutually exclusive, but one is worse for the others existence, if you see what i mean.
when you start talking about species that dont have morphs you see dramatically less use of racks, both professionally and domestically. there is still some around but the difference seems plain to see to my eyes.
it also doesnt help that (as francis cosquieri said in your podcast) people think of breeding as the only sign that the animals are thriving when it is objectively not. so for the rack minded people it creates a self supporting loop of validation.
i know there are keepers and breeders out there who only use vivs and still have scale on their side. and that is absolutely fine if they are happy to invest in the animals. i also dont think racks are inherently evil, but their use is only really good for specific circumstances. the problem, like many things, is based around exposure and education.
The Great Enclosure Debate! Fantastic video everyone. Really happy to see this being a productive conversation.
Edit to add: Is there a reason preventing rack keepers from offering more enriching bins with things such as substrate, leaf litter, multiple cork pieces, and branches? I’ve seen it done by some respectable people and would love to see more of this for those people that are bin keeping.
Thank you for listening :) Is it a really great question, and I'm not sure what the answer is! I think if consumers start pushing for more enriching rack systems, the companies will (hopefully) start offering them!
Good idea. I wonder if people who keep in racks would be willing to swap out their expensive racks that carry larger numbers of animals for a rack that can only house half the number of adults in the same space. They could repurpose the current racks for younger animals
I’m Canadian as well, would love to go live at some point and showcase what we’re doing!
I was hesitant to click this video when I saw how long it was - but man was it worth it!
Regarding the breeder vs pet owner point that breeders don't need to provide the same level of enrichment.. I believe that the healthier start the hatchlings receive, the healthier they will be long term (assuming the future owner provides the same enrichment, of course). For example, if the hatchlings get UVB and start developing healthier bones from the beginning of their life, it will benefit them and give them a great start at a healthy life. Whereas if the breeder doesn't provide enrichment and UVB, then the animal will experience extra shock going to a home that DOES provide that, and as a result, experience more stress and take longer to adapt. This seems like no big deal to people but it could be the difference between someone keeping their pet and loving them vs deciding to rehome it because it's too defensive; or regarding UVB, only starting to develop stronger bones once they arrive at their new home rather than already having a start at it with the breeder. If the animal is already healthy with a great start when the new owner receives it, it not only gains the breeder an excellent reputation, but gives the animal a better quality of life all around.
So in the long run, I agree with Liam that breeders can have better reputations and profit from providing better care and therefore healthier animals. Even if that care is provided in (accommodating) rack systems, the priority is that the care and enrichment is being provided at all. As was pointed out in the video, there are ways to improve rack systems so they provide more than the bare minimum and are also space efficient. If everyone worked toward improving rack systems, we could change the reputation of them-- the first thought when "rack system" is mentioned doesn't have to be "a drawer with dirt and a water dish;" it can be "space and energy efficient system that accommodates the requirements for maximum quality of life."
It would be amazing to see this as a goal so that the idea of bare minimum rack systems could be abolished and stop ruining the reputation of the hobby and breeders. It's crazy really; I talk about snake breeding a lot because it's a goal of mine, and the first thing I hear from most people is how they hate breeders because they keep animals in drawers. That idea is so widespread and it really makes the hobby and breeding look bad.
Thank you for sharing this respectful and insightful conversation/debate. I loved listening. It's refreshing to see the topic presented in this way. :)
Thank you for listening and providing such thorough thoughts, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
@@ElijahSnyder Thanks! I'll check those out!
For the record, I don't use racks, I use PVC enclosures, but I believe anything can be improved upon. The breeders who get hate just tend to stand out more than the ones who excel at husbandry and overall care. It's unfortunate and looks bad on the hobby, so I believe if it were to improve, it would really have a positive impact. :)
I personally prefer Enclosures over racks because I think that if you are using racks, even with tonnes of enrichment, it isn't a pet it's just an animal you are feeding
I think something that gets lost is that all racks aren’t created equal. There is a difference between a box the the animal can’t move in, blocks out all light and has nothing but a sheet of paper and a water bowl, and a transparent box that allows light, has substrate and hiding spots, and is big enough to allow the animal to move
Very true, unfortunately the large majority of racks fall into your first description of racks. Thanks for listening!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast thanks! I think it’s an overall culture problem. For too long reptiles have been viewed as a get rich quick scheme. I was in this hobby when the first albino and piebald ball pythons came out, and it’s been downhill ever since. I’m also in the aquarium hobby, and the difference is amazing. There are people who make their living off of fish and refer to themselves as hobbyists and talk about the hobby, meanwhile anyone who owns a couple snakes talks about the “industry”. People sold snakes on the idea that you were making an investment and that they were going to make money, it was like they were trying to kill the “hobby”
I thought that was a great conversation between Liam and Michelle and it was a conversation and not a my way is better than your way contest which was so nice to hear. I think for me it was the discussion around keeping an animal as a pet which distinguished that both agreed that keeping multiple snakes in a rack just so you can have more is actually wrong. I would love more animals but we are pretty much out of space on where we can keep them so we will do everything we can to look after the ones that we do have. It was nice to hear that Michelle does provide more than just a hide and a water bowl for her animals which are kept in a rack and I fully understand why as a breeder she utilises rack systems. I just wish all breeders had Michelles mentality and then perhaps the debate would not exist in the hobby.
I thought Michelle was brilliant!
I think one good thing we could do is create clubs. The purpose of these clubs would be to hold a care standard for the breeders. Those breeders would get a certificate from the club. This could justify the higher prices for said animals. As well as getting the breeders breeders to be able to advocate for better care as well as the customers. The people that buy these animals could also it was could also get a pedigree, and certificate For the animals they purchase. The very same thing that dog clubs and such do.
That is actually a great idea!
As long as we don't have to go the long way around, like with kennel clubs. A whole lot of bad breeding has been done in the name of breeding for looks without any regard for health. There are a lot of messed up dog breeds out there that will take a long time to fix, now.
Seperate from my own standpoints. I think it is great both had a discussion in such manner, and both sides clearly care about their animals. And again its animalsathome creating the enviroment to do so. Well done everyone.
We have the same animal freedom laws in Europe/NL. The problem is these are very open to interpertation and personal standards. My biggest concern with racks is the often smaller amount of space and therefor less oppertunities for sensory stimulus. Most are less optimal ventilated and there is less options to add/control light (and possibly UV). I use racks, and very purposly. I understand that big breeders have a place in our hobby. But we should prevent this level of care is becoming a standard.
Thanks, Stefan! 😁
I think it depends on the individual. You can have a small group of snakes in a rack, which can easily control temps/humidity and still handle the snakes regularly (if they are willing) or offer stimulation within their rack
PART ONE
This is a post that will take time to digest and is written in response to a number of issues were raised so a good answer cannot be short.
It’s probably appropriate to start off confirming our understanding of how UV and vit D works with reptiles; this is very well understood and extensively published. It is also accepted there is still much to learn. In the last few of years the link between the UV wavelengths and the other solar spectrum wavelengths have been explored are being shared within the hobby.
To set the scene please watch this delightful interview with the man that started it all some 40 years ago.
Prof. Gary Ferguson is a lovely gentle man whose knowledge is only just touched upon here. His students were lucky to have him.
ruclips.net/video/n2k2L77q494/видео.html
Dr. Frances Baines a vet and Honorary Life Member of BIAZA has also built the UV knowledge base over the last 20 years. She lectures to Zoos and keepers across the world from San Diego to the Middle East, from Sweden to the UK. She has helped develop lamps with all of the major manufacturers and her UV diagrams (or their copies) are on virtually every box selling a UV lamp. She has also co-authored a range of peer-reviewed papers in scientific journals, but here is a useful simple review article written for hobbyists.
www.reptilesmagazine.com/an-in-depth-look-at-uv-light-and-its-proper-use-with-reptiles/
Some of her work has been in conjunction with Gary and it is together that they built upon Gary’s work and ideas and the Ferguson Zones were born. Her work with BIAZA’s Reptile and Amphibian Working Group resulted inthe BIAZA “UV Tool”, a spread sheet covering UV provision for very many of our reptile species (266 species to date). It is used extensively.
Quite simply their work on UV and its link to Vitamin D has changed the face of husbandry. When I lived in Phoenix in the last century, we got a Dragon for the kids and were told of a mysterious illness that caused the animals to lose control of their legs, we were told to ensure we fed plenty of greens and peas. The animal died of course, due to Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD). I have an association with the National Centre for Reptile Welfare (NCRW) and in the last two years (despite COVID lockdown) 2278 animals have passed through the place. Each was medically examined; Of those were 159 bearded Dragons of which 3 showed symptoms of MBD. 93 were Geckos of which 4 sowed symptoms of MBD. The impact of that knowledge used in the reptile husbandry has been profound.
With the above foundation, I can move on.
I quote from the dialogue of that long exchange.
“It's interesting that both you and Liam demand cited, peer reviewed resources to prove that WHO, NICE, and several other organizations do not recognize Vitamin D as a treatment for covid19.... yet neither of you can locate these resources yourself. The very first half of the referenced UVTool by JZAR repeats that UV is dangerous. It is literally "common sense" that humans only need 15 minutes over a few days - you can locate this yourself.”
“Common sense” is not in the least helpful when one is ignorant of the processes involved. To estimate the time needed to synthesize adequate vitamin D3 requires an understanding of the irradiance (eg. UV Index) which depends on the sun’s altitude - the area of skin exposed - and the rate of synthesis of vitamin D3 in different skin types. In humans, dark skinned individuals may only synthesise a tenth of the vitamin D3 produced by a fair skinned person from a given dose. In reptiles, a study showed a similar finding comparing Texas Spiny Lizard and House Gecko skin:
Carman, E. N., Ferguson, G. W., Gehrmann, W. H., Chen, T. C., & Holick, M. F. (2000). Photobiosynthetic opportunity and ability for UV-B generated vitamin D synthesis in free-living house geckos (Hemidactylus turcicus) and Texas spiny lizards (Sceloporus olivaceous). Copeia 2000(1) 245-250.
For we humans, one needs to know how much D3 is required from this exposure.
Early estimates were based on “common sense” that 400IU per day was the target. This is woefully inadequate and has no effect at all upon circulating levels. It is now believed that 2,000 - 5,000 IU/day will achieve levels adequate for optimum immune function and typical of people living traditional tribal lifestyles or in outdoor occupations optimizing sun exposure. Modern humans living indoor lifestyles can never achieve this without supplements. A simple calculation results in an estimate that to obtain 2,000 IU/day, a Caucasian only exposing arms and face requires 40 minutes of sunlight at UV Index 7.0 every day of their life. Clearly impossible in Northern latitudes.
“The Mayo clinic includes a statement that Vitamin D’s association to COVID19 is unclear. Vitamin D is not recognized as a treatment or preventative measure for COVID19 from WHO. NICE, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, released research guidelines on this topic. A study funded by NICE appears in the Harvard Gazette suggesting that deficient individuals benefited from vitamin D supplementation.”
The advice from the WHO and NICE has evolved, it will be remembered that they did not, at first, recommend the use of face masks. Yet here we are now a year later with a requirement that everybody entering a government facility should wear a face mask. I also recall the president saying it will be all over by the summer. The NICE guidelines are worth looking at as you get differing statement depending on where and when you look.
I quote directly from the most recent NICE guidelines. It will be noted that these guidelines are for Caucasian white skinned folk which have evolved to live in northern climes.
84.Research is urgently required on vitamin D and risk of acute respiratory tract infections in black, Asian and minority ethnic groups and people living with overweight or obesity.
UK government advice on vitamin D
85.In spring and summer, most people get enough vitamin D through UVB sunlight exposure on the skin and a healthy, balanced diet. During autumn and winter everyone needs to rely on dietary sources of vitamin D. Since it is difficult for people to meet the 10 μg/day (400 IU/d) recommendation from consuming foods naturally
SACN December 202017containing or fortified with vitamin D, everyone should consider taking a daily supplement (10 μg; 400 IU) of vitamin D between October and early March.
As a matter of interest Dr. Fauci, a member of the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Medicine, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the American Philosophical Society; takes a daily dose of 6000IU. D3 capsules.
Go to part two
*PART TWO FROM ROMAN:*
Dr John Campbell is a Nurse Teacher with two higher degrees and still works in A&E in the North of England . A professional communicator on the matter.
I offer just two of his many educational videos. The first covers the vit D mechanism of operation.
Dr. John Campbell Vit D Lots of evidence. 15 April 2020
ruclips.net/video/GCSXNGc7pfs/видео.html
1:00 Lots of vitamin D comes from the sun.
8:20 Description of the protection mechanism and mode of COVID19 operation.
10:27 Addresses the case rate associated with the winter period and its link with available sunlight.
The video also talks of comorbidity.
“It would be nice to get some admission from Liam that his conclusions and guidance for keepers, whether or new or experienced, are not nearly as concrete as they are made out to be. He flippantly addresses Vitamin D as "easy" when it simply isn't - we don't know how this works in humans.”
Clearly after watching the video we can agree that maybe we know how it works for humans and in particular with COVID, and also just as clearly, we have more to learn.
However, there has been an explosion of studies on the mechanisms of action of vitamin D on the immune system in the last 10 years. The processes by which it is synthesized in the skin under UVB have been understood for more than 20 years. It is patently ridiculous to say that “we don't know how this works in humans”.
I would refer you to these review articles, which cite a huge number of studies elucidating the research:
1. Holick, M.F., 2017. The vitamin D deficiency pandemic: Approaches for diagnosis, treatment and prevention. Reviews in Endocrine and Metabolic Disorders, 18(2), pp.153-165.
2. Grant, W.B., Holick, M.F. and Wimalawansa, S.J., 2015. Vitamin D supplements and reasonable solar UVB should be recommended to prevent escalating incidence of chronic diseases. BMJ, 350, p.h321.
3. Wacker, M. and Holick, M.F., 2013. Sunlight and Vitamin D: A global perspective for health. Dermato-endocrinology, 5(1), pp.51-108.
Dr John Campbell; latest update. 29 Jan 2021 so the paint is still wet.
ruclips.net/video/au6FKi8aAsA/видео.html
Half a million participants in study.
5:25 he says 90% of vit D comes from the sun.
Dr Campbell shows astounding evidence gained from the various Meta studies including UK and USA. There is no ambiguity. We can only wait for NICE to catch up.
There is no doubt about the efficacy of Vitamin D that when taken regularly of having a positive protective effect.
Covid is a respiratory disease whose attack mechanism is becoming well understood otherwise we could not make the vaccine. Also better understood now are the co-morbidities. The lack of sufficient Vitamin D IS a condition with negative effects on the final health outcomes and addressing it reduces deaths. That has been proven.
Now here is another interesting thing; in the quote from NICE above it states that obesity needs to be better studied, but we know already from the human death rates that obesity is a significant comorbidity. Let me take you back now, to the NCRW, of those animals studied the single biggest health threat seen amongst the animals was snake obesity. There is no methodology to determine obesity in reptiles so statistics are not available. The college associated with the NCRW is developing a paper to address the issue.
Elijah Snyder, on his webpage has a note on Nidovirus, a virulent respiratory disease in snakes, it is worth a look.
“The order nidovirales, which includes coronaviradae, includes SARS, MERS, and covid19 as it appears in humans. Like their human counterparts far down the tree, the nidovirus infections experienced by reptiles cause an onset of respiratory distress which may be exacerbated by secondary infections. Even without secondary infection the disease is often lethal in many species of pythons”.
It seems to me that Nidovirus familial traits exhibited can be validly read across from our knowledge of COVID, its causes and its treatments.
If Vitamin D has been proven to be statistically significant in the management of the disease in humans then we would be foolish in ignoring the evidence when dealing with reptiles and respiratory diseases.
Of course, no work has been done with reptiles on this matter; universities are closed and data is still emerging but what a great opportunity for a young herp scientist.
Finally, why does obesity play a part? Well it seems body fat stores vitamin D and in doing so precludes its use in the body, it starves the body of vital protection. In addition, the layer of fat may well reduce the penetrative capability of warming infrared, and for effective D3 processing appropriate warmth is required.
It is my view that Liam was entirely right in raising the subject and bringing it to the attention of the enlightened keeper; with time formal herpetological science will catch up.
I have watched a long post develop and I agree my response is also long.
The end.
Roman Muryn
Part three
Covid is a respiratory disease whose attack mechanism is becoming well understood otherwise we could not make the vaccine. Also better understood now are the co-morbidities. The lack of sufficient Vitamin D IS a condition with negative effects on the final health outcomes and addressing it reduces deaths. That has been proven.
Now here is another interesting thing; in the quote from NICE above it states that obesity needs to be better studied, but we know already from the human death rates that obesity is a significant comorbidity. Let me take you back now, to the NCRW, of those animals studied the single biggest health threat seen amongst the animals was snake obesity. There is no methodology to determine obesity in reptiles so statistics are not available. The college associated with the NCRW is developing a paper to address the issue.
Elijah Snyder, on his webpage has a note on Nidovirus, a virulent respiratory disease in snakes, it is worth a look.
“The order nidovirales, which includes coronaviradae, includes SARS, MERS, and covid19 as it appears in humans. Like their human counterparts far down the tree, the nidovirus infections experienced by reptiles cause an onset of respiratory distress which may be exacerbated by secondary infections. Even without secondary infection the disease is often lethal in many species of pythons”.
It seems to me that Nidovirus familial traits exhibited can be validly read across from our knowledge of COVID, its causes and its treatments.
If Vitamin D has been proven to be statistically significant in the management of the disease in humans then we would be foolish in ignoring the evidence when dealing with reptiles and respiratory diseases.
Of course, no work has been done with reptiles on this matter; universities are closed and data is still emerging but what a great opportunity for a young herp scientist.
Finally, why does obesity play a part? Well it seems body fat stores vitamin D and in doing so precludes its use in the body, it starves the body of vital protection. In addition, the layer of fat may well reduce the penetrative capability of warming infrared, and for effective D3 processing appropriate warmth is required.
It is my view that Liam was entirely right in raising the subject and bringing it to the attention of the enlightened keeper; with time formal herpetological science will catch up.
I have watched a long post develop and I agree my response is also long.
The end.
Roman Muryn
Great podcast! I can see both sides, however I am working towards Liams ideas as i think racks are along the lines of puppy mills. All about the money and not about the animals.
I saw your posts about this on FB and was wondering who would jump in. I'm about halfway through it right now and I can only keep thinking that racks and traditional type caging both have their merits, but what I would like to see as an industry standard is a blend of the two. Racks made with larger tubs, lighting, etc. Of course what was mentioned about it being a consumer issue is absolutely true as it does drive the price of babies up and if a breeder can't sell animals produced at a higher cost for a reasonable profit because his competitors are still doing the bare minimum then they can't continue to breed.
Yep I would love to start seeing a hybrid of the two. The consumers drive that side as well... in other words, the consumers need to be willing to buy the hybridized racks as well. If they don't then companies won't make them. However, it's nice to see people adding more enrichment into their tub set ups!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast 100% agree.
One trying I think wasn’t hammered enough was how volume of captive bred reptiles is valuable. Just like the example of the “cobra food” as a result of importing, and the over harvesting of wild animals. A high volume breeder in a facility full of racks prevents the 1000 imports full of ticks and disease etc.
That's true. I don't think this debate lies so much with the high volume breeding practices... instead it's directed towards the high volume breeders touting that they have perfect husbandry i.e. "care for your snake like me and you'll have perfect welfare"
That's a good point. I think that high volume doesn't mean a free pass to give the bare minimum, which is why I said I think it's a consumer problem wanting animals as cheap as possible, if the breeder had wider margins they could potentially look at increasing welfare. Good point though. Like Dillon said my main gripe is people saying it's best for the animal, just say I'm doing this for x reason.
For the animals they keep, it very well MAY be the best of the best. The ammount of care, thought, planning and effort that goes into large scale breeding... they have they conditions down to a "T" coupled with years of experience.
I think it is possible that SOME snakes truly prefer seclusion, to be left alone. SOME prefer some handling, stimulation, "enrichement".
I am new to breeding and hope to promote snakes as pets. I have observed that SOME of my snakes truly want to hide all day and be left alone. While SOME of them are engaging with me (beyond food) and "enjoy" interactions/ exploring.
My belief is that like any animal, they have different temperments. I have some who, no matter what, do not like being held, while some do.
Maybe enclosures should be adjusted to the individual snakes
I really appreciated this discussion! Thank you for setting this up.
If we wanted the best for the animals we would be trying to preserve habitats or slightly less optimal we could keep animals that are native to where we live and keep them in large cages outdoors. Planted glass cages are still cages.
Many places have made it illegal to buy and sell locally native animals to keep folks from over collecting, but unfortunately this means that if you want a snake native to your area and you know someone breeding them the only way you can get one legally is for them to give you one for free or to go out and collect one from the wild. Its an anti-captive breeding situation.
Great conversation!!! I’m very impressed with Michelle’s point and perspectives and her care within the rack paradigm.
Thanks for listening, Steven!
So happy to see this!!!
Thanks, Scott! Enjoy the episode!
I just found your channel & I'm enjoying this so much! I just got my first Crested Gecko 2 weeks ago & after doing online research chose to go bioactive. My Viv turned out great & I loved making it & my little Elfi seems to enjoy it very much. There is so much conflicting info on keeping reptiles & as an animal lover I want the best for the animals under my care. Thank you for pushing animal welfare in the reptile community!
Glad you found the channel, thanks for watching! 😀
"There's a problem in the hobby where it's about how many you own, not the quality that you are keeping them"
Never has there been more truth spoken. When I had a reptile rehoming centre I kept several stacks of 4 3ft by 2ft by 1.5 ft vivariums to house them. They had bulbs, branches, cork hides and water bowls but that was about it.
Now I only keep 2 reptiles I can invest in much better enclosures. Hearing about people keeping 15 snakes in a tubs doesn't even seem like my hobby. It's like keeping a dog in a small room and leaving it there. It's wrong.
Exactly, the saddest part is people who run out and purchase 10 to 15 snakes because they want to get into breeding… And then burn out two years later and bring them all to a rescue. That story happens all the time.
Tell me about it. Had a pair of beardies, yellow bellied slides and leopard geckos from people who gave up breeding. Was so frustrating. In the UK we have a massive problem with "amateur" breeders. Most shops decent shops won't buy the babies anyway so the animals either end up in the least ethical shops (aquatics shops are a nightmare for this) or being dumped on the shops along with the parents. The babies might get sold but the parents might take years to resell (which of course is where people like me came in).
@@andyevans8585 Edit: I just re-read your comment and I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying your shops only buy from large breeders but what I'm getting now is that they only buy animals over a certain age. If that's correct, my comment is irrelevant (but I'll leave it up, because even if it's irrelevant, I feel it's worth mentioning).
Original comment: So, your pet shops will only buy from large breeders? Are they aware that those are the ones most likely to use smaller, more basic tubs, to squeeze in an extra dozen animals? I'm not saying all "amateur" breeders are model keepers but someone with a dozen animals of one type is far more likely to do extra for them than someone with a thousand animals of dozens of types.
I have four Ball Pythons (two handsome boys and two beautiful girls). I love them and while I don't have them in giant, bioactive vivariums, I also don't keep them in stark, basic tubs. I have mentioned to my local shop that I've considered breeding them. They know me and they know how I keep my snakes (through many long conversations about reptiles, whenever I stop by), so they offered to buy babies from me. They _only_ buy reptiles from small, local breeders who they have built good relationships with. To my mind, this is the best and most responsible way for pet shops to get these animals.
@TheCharleseye yeah you got me wrong. When I say amateur breeders I mean like the leopard geckos came to us from a 14 year old who thought it'd be fun to breed hers. Or the guy who kept 15 baby beardies in a 2ftx2ft vivarium and fed them a tub a week because "they were only small" and couldn't understand why they cannibalised each other.
You don't need a bioactive viv to look after an animal; Lotus my 14 year old corn snake has never been in a bioactive, nor will she. Hunter, my asian water dragon however is. Its beneficial to him and not for lotus. Imo bioactive is great for some but actually dangerous for others.
Breeding royals is always ethically difficult for me as the market is constantly overrun by them, but have had them myself I also understand why they are such a popular snake. Either way you clearly see them as your pets and not just a meal ticket so I doubt you'd do anything irresponsible like those I mentioned before 👌
@@andyevans8585 Yeah, it seems like we're very much on the same page. Have a good one!
I can appreciate the idea of conservation but let's be realistic. How many of the people at home that are keeping their animals in subpar condition, in tiny enclosures, if it can be even called back, are doing so for conservation purposes. Taking a small percentage of what is done to conserve a species, is not the problem. It's the growing amount of people that want is any as many animals as they can possibly fit in as small of an area as they can possibly fit. Breeders Sacrificing the quality of life for the animals in order to turn profit. And even worse, people that are just in the hobby, that see breeders doing it and think that therefore they are entitled to do it as part of their everyday hobby, they are the problem. but even in conservation, you can provide enrichment and A little space And if that is your main purpose, I'm pretty sure you can accommodate a little bit of both. Big big big big difference In the small amount of people out there attempting to preserve a species, and people that just don't want to Shell out the extra money or space to provide a proper home for their pet of the next 20 to 40 years potentially. They want to have a hundred and fifty animals when in reality if they were properly keeping, they probably would fit half of that. That may be a tough pill to swallow, but maybe you should just Have less animals. The topic will rage on and on and on until eventually things start getting taken away or they force the hand to step in and require guidelines. I would like to think that we could come up with a happy medium that would not require someone over our head stepping in, but as each day passes it Takes more and more of me to think that we are capable of that.
Yes it’s the drawn of keeping many animals in a small space that is certainly the issue. And I think you’re right, there are very very few people who are actually breeding for conservation purposes. Breeding for conservation takes a lot of work, DNA testing, proper pairing, etc.
they could definitely do something for conservation, if they would give a part of their money made by selling the animals to a conservation organisation 😉
Interesting video. I believe there’s no excuse for minimalistic keeping. Every animal deserves & needs the opportunity to have enrichment and hopefully thrive.
Before even watching I know this is going to be a good one
Enjoy!
This may seem like a small point, and I think Michelle's set up for rubber boas is better than most, but they do actually climb trees in the wild. They would probably benefit from room to climb.
Would there be an issue with supplying the pet industry, if there were only "normals" available of each reptile available in the hobby? The race/excitement to find the next money making morph (especially ball pythons) drives many of the large scale breeders. Would keepers want 53 normal ball pythons in their rack system? I severely doubt it. Ultimately, humans are going to human, and the collectors mentality is going to supercede an animal's overall welfare nearly every single time.
My thoughts exactly! I don’t think anyone would have racks and racks full of normals.
Another great video! May I suggest that you do a video on whether reptiles have emotions? I’m thinking with a focus on snakes, but also comparing other reptiles too. I’ve heard conflicting info on this topic. Some say they do not have the part of the brain that generates emotions, therefore they cannot feel emotion. Those folks are also the ones who often bash people for anthropomorphizing their animals. Others say they do indeed have emotions and can express them in various, though often subtle, ways. I think it would be a great topic of discussion. If there isn’t enough content with just covering emotions, you could even touch on the brain in general and get into reptile intelligence and learning abilities too, though that could also be a separate video. Anyway, what do you think? I’d love to see it!
Thanks for watching the video, I’m glad you enjoyed it! I think that is an excellent idea for a video or maybe even a podcast… I know Lori Torrini’s has a ton of information on this topic. I will start brainstorming ideas of how to present it 👍🏼
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Excellent! I can't wait! 😀
Great debate, but this honesty makes me even more convinced that racks are not ethical. No matter what, they are a compromise of welfare in return for more production. It doesn’t seem worth it to me. And as for sanitary reasons, since I’ve gone bioactive, I have 1/4 the work. All I really need to do is spot clean and replenish the soil very infrequently. Don’t want to make this too long, but the argument that racks help some species feel more secure made me think, what is more secure: natural hiding places with mapped escape routes, and natural light cycles, or a dark drawer that gets randomly pulled out every few days? Of course, not hating on this person, just my opinion.
Personally I think the issue is there is such a clear distinction between keeper and breeder when really there isn't much difference.
Personally I don't see how breeding animals at home as your hobby to supply a hobby can justify the major welfare issues caused by rack keeping.
Especially when it is not conservation, some random person breeding royals, crestys even say indigo's is not a conservationists, not providing any conservation value (other then the argument of meeting demand with CB rather then people looking for WC if you have issues with WC).
Will add this is a personal thing but I can't stand when someone breeds some random animals at home and say they're doing conservation work 😂
Rack keeping is purely out of laziness/to allow animal hording. And to try and make themselves feel better they try to say it's what the animal needs.
You nailed it at 46 min. The biggest hurdle I see in the snake community (esp. BP's) is that there is often 2 sides who claim that their way is the 1 and only wholy grail way of keeping snakes.
This is not true. A tank, vivi, tub or rack is completely subjective
This was a very good discourse that's helped me to consider how to improve my own husbandry. Also I was unaware that UVB lighting could improve the husbandry of corn snakes and rosy boas (both of which I'm considering for my 1st snake in a couple/few years).
Also you need more views.
Thank you, I have a video on uvb and snakes on my channel I think you'd like, lots of corn snake studies in it. I agree dillon totally deserves more views
If this subject comes up again in a future podcast maybe you can get reptilemountain.tv to join?
That would be awesome! TC is a good friend. He’s been on the show twice now, all the way back to episode #3 and Round Table #2
Racks are the equivalent to solitary confinement in my opinion.
Agreed
Many reptiles are much better off solitary than cohabitated.
Interesting takes. I think it is easier to meet the basic needs of some reptiles in a rack but it is good to aspire to keep all reptiles in well designed naturalistic enclosures. There is more room for mistakes in a complex enclosure.
Thank you for listening, and sharing your thoughts, Joel!
2 words: Thank You!!
Hi Dillon. First of all let me say I love your podcast. Found them a few weeks back and really enjoy them. I am for sure on the viv side of the hobby. Providing as much of a natural environment as possible. I am also for providing as big of a enclosure as you possibly can for them. I am not satisfied with minimum size enclosures for the animals. It is our responsibility as reptile keepers to care for these beautiful creatures the best we can. To continue to develop and advance. By becoming stagnate you are doing yourself any favors but more important the animals suffers for it. I love these creatures and want to take the best care I can for them and that does require continuing to learn and advance. I am not bashing anyone that keeps reptiles in racks or anything but had to through where I stand on the issue is. So many people in the hobby think they know enough but enough is never enough. These animals deserve the best care and it is our responsibility to provide that for them. The debate was great and both were very respectful. Love that. Keep up the good work and look forward to more of your podcast in the future.
Hey Steven, Thank you for listening to the show! I’m glad you found it and are enjoying it so far. Sounds like we have very similar philosophies 👌🏼
Great topic choice
Thank you, enjoy!
At 30:00 when they're talking about people wanting pythons only to be £30. That's not true at all. They are only that cheap because perusing new morphs create an surplus supply of undesirable wild type or old morph animals. It's an easy fix, keep a diverse collection and prices are a lot more stable
Yes, I actually agree with this. There is a ton of "by-product" produced by the morph industry
I really do hope people appreciate the mental and emotional toll this discourse takes on a person lol nobody can even look at that title without getting triggered I bet haha but it is still (frustratingly) perhaps the most talked about topic in the hobby/industry. Listened to some of it on my break but will definitely watch the whole episode soon! Great content as always!
Yeah it's interesting... some people roll their eyes at this debate "ugh not this topic again" However, like you said, it still triggers most people, which as far as I am concerned is a sign that we aren't done having this conversation! Enjoy the episode!
Very important discussion that should continue, despite discomfort.
Vivi ppl need to respect the decades of experience that rack ppl have keeping, raising and maintaining these animals, while rack ppl need to be open to new and possibly "better" adjustments that can be made
@@toeachitsown2050 Absolutely. I think people are too ready to take sides and I find that is way too common of an approach to things. Not enough people are prepared to even consider a middle ground unfortunately, let alone consider another perspective. But hopefully the more these kinds of discussions take place, progress can be made.
Lastly, on the issue of providing a snake the ability to perform natural abilities is vital for welfare, would we consider someone who doesn’t breed snakes as not fulfilling that natural aspect and not having met the requirement of proper welfare?
I have asked this question as well, have you seen the post on advancing herpetological husbandry about it?
Great question! I know Francis Cosquieri lets his snakes breed for that very reason! The takes us into the territory of what we discussed on the second round table, "Are all Natural Behaviors Necessary to Achieve Welfare?"
@@ReptilesandResearch no is it recent?
@@LetsTalkHerps let me find it
@@ReptilesandResearch excellent. Yes of course, like, subscribe, and check out our previous videos ;) you’re right. I do remember that discussion and I don’t know if you had the extra 3 hours to plug into this debate lol.
Some deeper and better sized bins would do wonders for the husbandry you can accomplish in a rack system. Frankly, limiting rack systems to whatever tubs you can find at a box store is such an archaic mindset for such a large industry... and opaque bins need to die.
Agreed! I think we will see some advancement on rack side in the next few years 🤞🏼
Except SOME snakes prefer opaque bins. I have one that I am buying one for because I think she will be more comfortable in it.
Why not cater housing to the snake as an individual?
@@toeachitsown2050 it's certainly easier to make a clear tub opaque than the other way around. When you plan around an outlier the majority suffers.
@@stefaniasexoticaladventure9019 yes... but if we were stern on "banning tubs, esp. Opaque ones" MANY snakes like her would suffer... to be honest.
To call it archaic is very judgmental when a LOT of snakes feel much safer in opaque tubs beyond any other housing. Most keepers, breeders included, DO think of the snakes
hello great video pod cast information
As a species we are masters of rationalizing the crap things we do. Take a step back from the issue and try to look at it without your personal bias... reptiles are complex creatures that evolved in nature with a multitude of stimuli in their everyday, so why would it be okay to put them in the equivalent of a sensory deprivation tank. It's pretty awesome that we're finally encouraging keepers and breeders to do better.
Absolutely… We love to rationalize!
That exact same rationalization can be used to argue that we shouldn't keep any animals for any reason. We cannot duplicate the wild, no matter how much PVC, gorilla glue, and cork bark we use. There are those who would argue that a bioactive enclosure is nothing more than a really big stick and a really big leaf in a really big jar.
Exactly how much _are_ we doing for an animal that is confined to a four foot box, instead of the seemingly endless environment it belongs in? Perhaps, at the end of the day, we're spending thousands of dollars to make ourselves feel moral. We are, after all, masters of rationalizing the crap things we do...
Definitely agree there dude! Keeping that animal from the full enrichment of the wild is a major decision... I also know that nature kind of sucks if you're a snake, so the animal may well live a better life in captivity. If the choice to keep them in captivity is made, I personally feel a deep responsibility to the animal to keep them mentally and physically healthy. I spend a ridiculous amount of time with my snakes, because I recognize that the most engaged and active time they spend in a day is the time outside of their vivs. I have four snakes, and they all spend time out of their enclosures daily, or almost daily, exploring my lawn in better weather, and hanging out on window sills, or in various boxes and house plants or climbing around in my hands and on my shoulders as I talk to them in low tones. When they go back in their tanks, they need as many stimuli in there as possible, and I have all my vivs set up in front of windows, which they all spend hours looking out of. I only have four snakes and I honestly don't think I have enough time (or windows) to dedicate to another right now. Leave them in the wild unless you can give them an awesome life in captivity is my thinking.
@@bobmosh4970 I will definitely agree that snakes have a better life in captivity. We didn't spend thousands of years going from mud huts up through to insulated homes with central heat and AC because the wild is such an inviting place. It's why people spend so much money on exterminators. Most land-dwelling creatures - great and small - _want_ to live where the temperature is stable, the food is plentiful, the predators are nonexistent, and someone cleans up after them. Growing up, my grandfather's cellar had no fewer than fifteen garter snakes living in it at any time. Animals do love our modern caves.
My point is simply that everyone's standard for care is based on their own belief about what a given animal needs. I have four snakes as well (those boring Ball Pythons that have become so passé...but I love them). I dare say they don't live the way yours do. My personal belief is that one can over-handle a Ball Python, so mine come out only a few times/week. They have room to stretch out in their enclosures and they have enrichment but I won't be entering any vivarium competitions real soon. I'm willing to bet your snakes are doing fine. Mine are, too. Many newer breeders would tell us we're keeping our snakes all wrong. PETA would burn both our homes to the ground if it meant there were fewer "evil" reptile keepers in the world.
I'll say this, though. Most breeders don't tend to create large numbers of dead/dying reptiles. Neither do conscientious keepers. The ones who tend to stack bodies are the masses of people who walk into a pet store with a couple hundred dollars in their pocket and walk out with a new pet reptile and a 10 gallon fish tank. Personally, I think both sides should work together to deal with that problem first (since it's causing the most animal suffering) and then maybe use that common ground to come to an understanding about other things.
I have garter snakes and northern red belly snakes, which are communal and naturally social snakes, so my experience with them is undoubtedly going to differ from yours with ambush predators like boas and pythons... i would agree that hanging out with them as much as I do, is probably a bad idea. I just think that it's important to remember that all snakes need something to do and enough stimuli or their brains start to atrophy. I don't think bio active is the be all end all of good husbandry, because you can definitely make something bio active without making it engaging for the animal. Sounds like you love your snakes dude, so I bet they're living a great life! Have a great one!
I live in Oregon and know Michelle. I have a few Reticulated pythons and monitors. Great debate guys and gurls.
I really like Michelle she was nothing but lovely
Imho, the answer was alluded to in the first one minute, 'to meet the demands...'.
That outlook leads to factories.
I do understand that my 2 fire BP possibly came from a rack. It's a really tricky one.
Maybe there are some reptiles that definitely should not be kept in rack?
There are a LOT of reptiles who should never be kept in racks. I think ball pythons tend to be the snake whose natural inclinations match racks best; therefore, they tend to do well and there is a lot of debate over it
Breeders could devote more space and enrichment to their animals if they cost more, or not over produce and still make a living. In general, I would say pet reptiles don't cost enough. We vote with our dollars, spend more on animals that come from high welfare standards and support those breeders that have an eye on progressing their care.
I like this thinking. If someone will spend 2k for a designer puppy, why not a pet snake?
Fyi, "designer" well bred snakes most definately cost thousands.
awesome video
Hi, Dillon. Hope you are well.
In my view, both racks and terrariums have its benefits and down sides. It depends on the purpose of the reptile keeping.
If racks are less natural and bring all the issues of not keeping reptiles in a close-to-natural-as-possible-enclosure in terms of their wellfare, on the other hand, it is much more manageable in terms of assuring animal wellfare and higiene when you have a lot of animals to manage with.
On the other side, terrariums ( when well kept and replicating the most natural environment as possible ) will definitely reduce the probability of stress impacted issues and will promote natural behaviour and animal wellfare and, also, make observational knowledge gathering and research possible. On the top of all that, terrariums promote having pleasure caring for your pet and, therefore, improves your willing to engage in protecting your pet in a lifelong commitement.
In the end, I'm not on the side of rack keeping because I rather know my pets and let them "speak" to me, engage with them and give them those fair natural conditions they have the right to have and be treated as well as a human being or any other living being.
Besides, I think that the environmental influence on reptiles has been totally overlooked. We still barely know how much the environment around a reptile will impact it in terms of stress levels and health in general. In my experience, I can tell some species are more sensitive to that than others and that can really make the diference between life and death. Therefore, I don't believe in keeping all reptiles in the same way and keeping them in enclosures without any basking areas and without customized sizes and areas according to the species in question. It is just not healthy, scientific and "humane", no matter what rack keepers say. It just doesn't make any sense apart from the distorted way some people look at reptiles.
When it comes to breeding reptiles, people have the obligation to choose species with requirements they can cope with, without putting their animal's wellfare in danger. You just have to be mature and responsable enough to choose a species that you can breed in a number of terrariums you can manage to have in order to deserve to be a reptile keeper and/or breeder.
In adiction, it would also help a lot if authorities and governments would check on the ways breeders and sellers are breeding and importing the reptiles they sell.
In the end, it is just sad that so many people are so prone to keep and breed reptiles in racks just because they saw RUclipsrs doing it and it turn into fashion. As always, in the end, when it comes to the relationship between animals and people, the firsts almost always suffer much more.
My regards.
Paulo from Portugal
Great topic. Lots of conservative agreeing going i was expecting the usual hot debate between racks or not. Much appreciate your times thankyou :)
Glad you enjoyed it!
It's species dependent for sure, but if you don't provide enrichment and sufficient space, I think it's pretty unethical.
No animal in activity can engage in all its natural behaviors
True. They don't get to run from predators, take to high ground to avoid floods, freeze, starve, get slowly eaten by various parasites...it's truly a terrible existence.
@Charles Eye im still right. And maybe you don't get to decide what a free being would choose. Are you saying that the safety od captivity outweighs the danger of freedom?
@Charles Eye I don't care how you feel about keeping pets anyways. It wasn't my point.
What's really needed is a new set of studies into how the common snakes kept (Royal pythons, Corns and Boa's) live their lives in the wild. More on observing behaviour, range they move around, activity etc to put some of these old wives tales to bed. For ages those that keep Royals in racks 24/7 use the "well they are nocturnal and live in rodent burrows and in termite mounds" when in reality they've been found in trees and active above ground.
The thing is, as touched in the video is definition of how they are kept. My hatchling rack uses clear tubs. The tubs have substrate and two hides in each. The rack has LED lighting above on a timer to boost the natural light and give a photoperiod. No commercial rack system have lighting fitted, and if you are saying that this is not meeting with the list of items under the welfare acts then why are they allowed to produce them in the sizes and manor as they are.
What does upset me is seeing people keeping Royals in racks where already small tubs are then fitted with dividers, and the reason given is because these snakes love tight spaces to feel secure. It's clear to anyone with half a brain that it's simply to cram more in to a collection in a given space. Not saying that Michelle is one of those, there are plenty examples on YT.
Excellent debate, and one that will continue to ramble on until governments step in and make clear definitions on size and methods employed to keep these animals. Thank you Michelle and Liam for agreeing to discuss this controversial topic.
There are quite some studies to their natural behaviors though.
@@horsemanshipper but most were conducted several decades ago, and were more censuses than studies. There was a recent one though which proved Royals would climb trees and ate birds and mammals that never venture to the ground, which blows the argument of them being almost subterranean out of the water !
@@MalcolmCrabbe there are performed some pretty decent studies to their natural behaviors that shows us the majority. This in no way means we know the animal perfectly. But every study done (of which a few lasting several years) shows the same big behaviors and their ratios like 90% hiding, 10% active. Activity levels 70% at night and 30% during the day, basking at entrances of burrows and cryptic basking, climbing.
They are decent enough to know those things for a fact. In fact one research article uses data from a 5 year taking radiotracker study. I don't know which one exactly though.
Just because they're done decades ago, doesn't mean they're wrong or outdated. And if there are several supporting each others findings, I do think that shows pretty accurately how they live in general.
But unless future research shows all available studies until now are flukes, which would be highly unlikely, it remains up to date and conclusive.
Not to say that I wouldn't love to see more studies and more detailed studies as I absolutely would love that. But I do think there is enough information and evidence to show major behaviors. I mean if they are regularly seen doing it, then it is a natural behavior, no matter if there is one study done in the course of a week or a hundred in the course of half a century. Because the behaviors simply happen.
Btw, there are some studies in captivity too such as "Spatial considerations for captive snakes" which shows that most species of snakes (including Python regius) perform rectilinear forward motion when given the opportunity in even a very short observational time, let alone if they observed for months.
Another one:
"Stress associated with handling Python regius"
This one shows that also in captivity, when given light, they have a roughly 70% night time activity and 30% day time activity which also again is supporting the finding of previous research articles.
Then we have studies in other snakes too that show increased enclosure size and enrichment is good:
"Effects of Habitat Modifications on Behavioral Indicators of Welfare for Madagascar Giant Hognose Snakes (Leioheterodon madagascariensis)"
So I feel that it has more to do with whether or not people are biased. If they choose to ignore the available studies, honestly they will try to find ways around future research articles too. There is always something you can say about every article. And the people who completely twist and decontextualize things from current studies will keep doing that with future studies too.
So I feel that it's more the people that are the problem and not the study.
After all you have people who claim the earth is flat or hollow or moon landings are fake. They too choose to ignore all evidence that doesn't fit their view or twist certain parts.
Anyway, people who want to ignore parts of research or even complete articles will keep doing so.
Science deniers will always exist.
Anyone who thinks reptiles have no emotions whatsoever have never observed the eyes of a blue tongue skink when you present it with its favorite treat!
I don't know how smart a snake is exactly (I've only owned lizards), but I would be EXTREMELY wary of the claim that they can thrive in a barren box with nothing but a thin layer of substrate and water dish all their life. Humans have a very long record of being absolutely terrible at judging the intelligence/needs of other creatures. Heck our track record of recognizing even OTHER human beings as being equally intelligent and emotional (and deserving of the same rights) is pretty bloody abysmal...
Exactly! You'll have to check out Lori Torrini's channel, she has some amazing videos of snake training.
This conversation in a nutshell:
Keeper: Undersized, bare tubs are bad.
Breeder: Yup.
Keeper: Breeders that keep reptiles that way should do better.
Breeder: True.
Keeper: It's really important.
Breeder: Agreed.
😂 not wrong
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast I'm loving it.
Oh this is my jam😂
Haha enjoy! 😁
l have been saying they racks are a necessary evil, so it is not the ever going to be those that use them are not caring for them properly and l get the same stock answer that they prefer living like this. it is a culture within the BP community more l think any other species that preaches they like tubs more then enclosures, which is not true at all. l certainly see you can improve as a breeder but it is a matter of how could they do this. Adding some enrichment, yes is great to add to a tub, possibly for a smaller species but when l am seeing Carpets, Retics, Burms etc, this l feel is so not right for their welfare. They are a product rather then a living animal and they are disposible. Time to take a couple years off from breeding BPs and Cornsnakes l think, make that a rule. ARS and Freedom Breeder need to start making racks that you can provide all that a snake needs.
Yes, you make an excellent point! SMALL species. The fact that breeder burms, retics, etc. have been also subjected to racks/tubs is ridiculous. People are slowly moving away from rack system for the large animals.... but it was that long ago when people justified their use by saying "this is all the burm needs, they barely move in the wild". Sounds similar to what we hear nowadays with BPs. I'm hoping the rack companies start to innovate soon!
All I hear when supporters of rack systems defend their case is "I'm too lazy and cheap to properly look after my animals, I couldn't possibly spend that much on husbandry because I wouldn't make any money from breeding." I'm with Tom Crutchfield on this one. Great debate though. A rare thing these days. 👍🏻
Thanks for listening!
@@ElijahSnyder I am new to the reptile hobby, and so I am genuinely curious: how do racks help prevent disease? I understand that they are easy to clean and disinfect, but if you have multiple animals in close proximity, doesn't that increase the chances for disease transmission through the whole rack? Again, I am just trying to better understand. Thanks!
@@ElijahSnyder This makes a lot of sense for mites, in terms of easily wiping down the enclosure. I am also sure it is easier to visually spot mites in a rack/tub system, especially if you use paper towel or white newsprint paper as your substrate.
One of my biggest concerns though, especially with ball pythons, is nidovirus. Again, my knowledge at this time is, admittedly, limited, but nidovirus is more difficult to identify and diagnose, meaning that by the time one animal shows symptoms, several may be infected. Isn't this more likely to happen in racks? Especially when airflow is limited?
Again, I am just trying to understand. It sounds like a nightmare scenario for any reptile keeper, and I struggle to imagine where one would even begin with such an outbreak.
@@ElijahSnyder "You'll often see me ride Liam in the comments because he refuses to acknowledge diseases like nidovirus and adenovirus. :)"
Or the fact I havnt done any videos on them yet, your version of refuses to acknowledge is he hasnt made the videos I want when i want so therefore hes trying to pretend they dont exist. This is so stupid, Dillon already said you made videos internally, just upload them. You told him you are too busy, the rest of us are busy. I dont know why you cant understand that other people are also busy. I've already explained to you that I will do it after I finish my degree and I cant dedicate time to getting it right. Its not a hard concept to grasp. This conversation goes like this every time:
Why dont you make a video now?
I dont have time.
Why dont you make a video now?
I dont have time.
Why dont you make a video now?
I dont have time.
Why dont you make a video now?
I dont have time.
Why dont you make a video yourself elijah?
Oh I dont have time. *Really?*
3 months later:
Why havnt you made the video?
Already said I will after Uni.
Ive already said I *Will*
This is exactly how you get yourself banned from channels because you hound people over and over again to the point they want nothing to do with you when youve already been given an answer.
@@ElijahSnyder We already established a animal with a disease has poor welfare no matter how its housed, the point of the debate was the welfare of racks on permanently housing healthy animals.
"You're literally named Reptiles and Research and failed to research adenovirus and nidovirus"
Already told you that I will, dont know what you want from me other than you want me to do it right now.
You say such ridiculous things with such confidence. Again you take things and exaggerate them and attack your exaggerations. Stop it.
You dont give Dillon a hard time because he hasnt made videos about adenovirus, because its your problem with me. Leave it out.
Make videos about Nido then, thats what weve been saying the whole time.
I wouldn't want to live in a tray.....
Im about to clicker train my BTS 🙂
Yeah the rack keeper basically only tried to defend it with switching topics
@@ElijahSnyder Lol yeah, I was. there's no justification either way for rack keeping just an FYI.
@@ElijahSnyder I don't favor a RUclipsr lmao I'm just saying as permeant housing its unethical but they are decently good tools for breeding and producing.
@@ElijahSnyder Keeping and breeding are different things. there's no compromise dude I just don't like to cram my snakes.
@@ElijahSnyder I don't breed. Never wanted too. I only make Viv's and keep a variety of different species and all snakes are sourced from someone reliable. All animals are quarantined.
@@ElijahSnyder you do realize that disease is a separate topic regardless of housing right? In fact, most disease are transmit through unsanitary rack systems than vivariums.
In Sweden racks are Illegal.(and several other european countries)
Interesting!
Well that solves that problem 😂
@@ReptilesandResearch Is there a problem?
@@ReptilesandResearch Im not getting in the debate. Im just saying rackas are illegal in more than one country. Facts worth thinking about.
Reptiles and Research is Liam. I.e. the chap in the video who against the use of racks.
The breeder racks vs keeper racks categories are a garbage side issue. Racks and vivariums have both been around for as long as people have been keeping snakes, uvB isn’t anything new either. Racks have just as long of a documented history of successfully keeping snakes as vivariums do. IRC heat pads will heat a snake up to temperature just like IRA halogens will heat a snake up to temperature. Give your snakes an ethical amount of space and as much enrichment as you can cram into that space, nobody will ever be able to tell if it’s been in a rack or vivarium.
There is actually a significant difference between IR-A and IR-C. You should check out the episode I recorded with Roman Muryn for more info on that
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast
Well aware of the differences, have read and discussed the research on plenty of groups. What I don’t buy into is that irC magically doesn’t heat the organs of ectothermic animals. That a snake on a heat mat isn’t going to be as quickly and effectively heated as under a halogen? Sure, no disagreements there as long as your snake uses the halogen basking area. However a snake in a captive environment has all the time it needs to lay on that heat mat until it gets to temp. From what I’ve observed from my snakes that do have heat mats, it doesn’t take all that long for them to get warmed up. It’s not like we see captive snakes struggling to thermo-regulate and never leaving their heat mats (when all other parameters are proper). It’s pretty easy to argue that halogens are “better” at heating snakes, but they’re certainly not the only viable option.
@@danyalthompson6190 No question heat mats are still capable of warming a reptile. I think many of our reptiles would survive just fine without supplementary heat entirely (I'm not saying that would be beneficial, I've just come across many "rescue" situations where a snake has not had access to heat for years and is still living). Heat mats will warm up a reptile through conduction slowly over time (the outer skin will warm, then inner skin, then capillary tissue, etc,. etc.), as you said, captive snakes have all the time in the world, but, as soon as the snake leaves its heat mat its body temperature will begin to drop immediately i.e. the steady heat source is required to maintain temperature. When an animal is being heated with an IR-A heat source, its body is literally being injected with energy, this causes IR-C wavelengths of energy to become trapped within the body cavity and the animal can maintain temperature after leaving the heat source for much, much longer. It's the difference between having a theoretical electronic device that needs to be plugged in, versus one that has a battery-at the outlet site both devices are similar, but the device that contains the battery is capable of leaving the charging station.
Also, that doesn't include the other well-known benefits of IR-A such as tissue healing, activation of mitochondria to produce more ATP (giving the animal more energy), allows for far better digestion/absorption, etc. Halogen light is a far more bioavailable and healthy form of heat energy. I try and provide my animals with both a halogen and heat mat, that way they can choose where/how they want to bask.
❤️💚🐍
Thanks for listening Erika! I was just checking up on your shirt order... it looks like it still hasn't arrived, everything is extremely backed-up due to COVID slowdowns. I'm really hoping you receive it in the next couple of weeks, thanks for your patience :)
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast No problem. I had a sneaky suspicion that COVID has something to do with it😊
Heres the deal. Racks are necessary if breeding on a large scale is what you're doing. If you have a handful of snakes, give them vivs why not. If you were to say ban racks, you will kill the hobby for common keepers. With fewer animals on the market, people will turn to more economical options as far as getting into a hobby. Kill racks and kill the hobby. Availability goes down price goes up. Look dumerils boas and mbks. Prices thru the roof.
Honestly posting videos like this is very detrimental to the hobby as a whole. Lawmakers are looking for things like this to push laws to ban reptiles. Check out usark.org its happening now. Stop creating division among keepers, we have to stand together now more than ever.
Vivs are ideal for the hobbyist but not the breeder.
Right. The consensus of this conversation was that breeders need to admit that rack breeding is a necessary evil and that they are sacrificing welfare to keep their colony clean and healthy in order to produce animals for the hobby (which is fair enough). They should not be telling keepers that a tub, and a water dish is gold standard care, which they do all the time. “Snakes are a cheap pet, All you need is a tub, deli cup and a heat mat” is not the message that should be sent to keepers and it also happens to be the most common thing AR groups attack the hobby for (I.e. seeing reptiles kept in enclosures that are too small). So in my opinion, conversations like this progress the hobby forward rather than divide us.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast i think new wannabe keepers need to realize. If you dont have the money for a good setup, you shouldn't buy the animal. Same with anything, dont buy a german Shepard if you dont have the space. Im on board with you there. No reason a person with 4 snakes shouldnt have larger sized vivs for the animals. People are cheap especially reptile keepers it seems. Again, from a breeders standpoint, even if they agreed with your stance, they couldnt admit it. No one wants to paint their livelihood in a less than ideal light. Id focus on educating new keepers on good keeping practices because are a lost cause imo.
We need to kill live feeding videos also, that hurts our cause as well imo.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Okay, I'm gonna address this one from the world of Ball Pythons, because that's the world I'm living in.
The whole deal with breeders telling people to keep BPs in tubs started (and continues) as a band-aid to another problem, entirely. When I first decided to look into getting a BP, I started researching like crazy (as I do with absolutely anything I get into, because I'm an obsessive personality type). The patterns in the hobby became glaringly obvious: The _vast_ majority of people buy pets, start having problems, _then_ start researching the animal's care, properly.
Go to any reptile forum and you'll find endless queries about BPs not eating, not shedding properly, and/or wheezing. Scratch the surface and you find the same thing, over and over again. People who went to the pet store, picked out a BP, bought a cheap "reptile kit" (consisting of an aquarium, a heat lamp or rock, a half-round log, and a water dish) and went home thinking they were all set. Then, when the inevitable happens, they take to the forums or to RUclips to find out why.
This leads to the breeders' interactions. They get bombarded - day in and day out - with the same, exact questions that have the same, exact answers. Nobody wants to hear that their $99 snake is going to cost them hundreds of dollars more to house properly. The breeders aren't looking to let a snake suffer while they argue with someone who didn't even care enough about the animal to do ten minutes of research on it. What's the answer? To tell them to go out and spend about $80-$100 on something that will _at least_ meet the animal's basic needs for the next year, before these people inevitably get bored/frustrated and sell their BPs to someone else.
This basic care advice became gospel because it works. The BPs go back to eating, their sheds come off, and they breathe better. It became concreted in people's minds that this is the _only_ way to keep Ball Pythons successfully, and that any deviation from such is harmful to the snakes. That has continued to build and build, while new breeders enter the market who truly believe this (after all, it's what everyone tells people to do, to keep their BPs healthy).
You can't get people to admit that what they're doing is a necessary evil because they will refuse to see it as any kind of evil. After all, this is the exact care that has saved countless BPs from their "ignorant keepers." The only way forward is to show them that doing things differently is _not_ evil (as many seem to think) and that doing more for their animals will give them better results.
Most breeders want to breed and sell healthy BPs. Most keepers (sadly) want to buy little Tommy something "cool" to sit on his dresser. Both need to be guided away from their current stances on care - in a manner that doesn't lead to major push-back - or we're just going in circles.
The root cause of all of this drama is the pet stores (and the ignorant masses who buy things without thinking, but that's unavoidable). If BPs were being sold with proper setups, there would be fewer health issues. Fewer health issues leads to fewer people telling others to move their snakes into tubs and reinforcing that as the ideal care. Fewer BPs in tubs means more posts and videos by people proudly keeping healthy BPs in enclosures with enrichment. More posts and videos of that is more proof that it should be the rule, not the exception.
Petition pet stores to sell only proper setups for a given reptile. Boycott those that don't. Call them out on social media. Make it loud and post it everywhere. Breeders who want healthy reptiles fighting with keepers who want healthy reptiles won't get us anywhere.
You chose a reasonable rack keeper though that could discuss normally. Or maybe she self-selected. On the other side hobbyists with a British background come a little as sanctimonious and moralistic.
Why this is even a debate is deplorable...Racks are like prisons, it’s obvious what the the better option is smh.
@
Brock, To compare a rack system to a prison demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how some species of reptiles and amphibians interact with their environment and what their needs in captivity are. If you are going to go as far as to use a very human like experience such as a prison, you have to reflect that back onto the animals own needs and what it values in life.
If I take an animal like a Ball Python for example, and ask myself, "What are this animals needs and desires", or, "What does this animal value in life", it can be simplified but not completely limited to a few things: clean living conditions, clean water, proper temperatures, and enough space to move around and exercise proper movement. The ability to breed would also be a good one to add as well. If a rack meets these requirements for certain animals, how can you classify that as a prison?
While we would love it to be that in nature, reptiles and amphibians are just moving through their environment in the open space smelling the beautiful flowers and looking up at the blue sky, this is not so. Besides a few exceptions, most ground dwelling reptiles spend most of their time hiding from predators in small spaces fearing for their lives. When we keep these animals in a captive setting, we have to look at their setup from their view and their needs, not ours.
While not all species do great in racks, you cannot accurately say that rack systems are always bad. If they are done properly, and used for the right species, they can be just as good if not better than a typical naturalistic setup.
Speaking scholar at an obvious non-scholar who wants to have an earnest discussion isn't debating. It's gaslighting.
I’m not sure what you mean?
That was not the impression I got at all... Michelle seemed very well-versed in her scholarly knowledge of snake intelligence. She described a vast variety of ways in which she strives to provide enrichment to her animals, including target training even! Furthermore, she seemed to have more hands-on experience with a wider variety of snake species than Liam.
I am not saying this to dismiss the resources Liam cited during his moments of the debate. Rather, I felt like both Liam and Michelle had different perspectives to bring to the table and that they were "equally matched" in their amount of knowledge - they simply brought different TYPES of knowledge to the table. And isn't that the point of debate? To present multiple perspectives of an issue for the sake of better understanding?
In any case, I don't think it is fair to Michelle to label her as an "obvious non-scholar." Her desire to access and read the studies Liam was citing towards the end is a testament to her own scholarly inclinations. I felt like she brought several insightful points to the table that made for a nuanced and dynamic discussion.
If anything, it would be beneficial to have a part two of this debate between Liam and Michelle. Give them both time to reflect on this debate, reassess their arguments, and then return to the table.
@@caryelizabeth624 don't misunderstand, I think she's the more seasoned keeper with a much more vast working knowledge of the animals. I just didn't enjoy the tone directed at her.
It really does feel like she's coming into this uninformed and selfish. She keeps arguing she's doing the best she can while maximising her profit but as was said, animals shouldn't be this cheap to buy. Especially exotic ones which require specialist care, instead of selling 20 different species focus on 5 and make sure they got the best welfare they can rather than locking them into a dark tub for their life. Throughout the episode all I heard was her trying to excuse the poor standards breeders popularised to have a "collection" of reptiles rather than few individuals that are well taken care of.
Royals are one of the few snakes species that are actually well suited for a rack environment. they like the tighter spaces, they need to thermo-regulate. They require a level of humidity that is best replicated in this set up. As far as enrichment goes they require very little. A ball python's brain takes care of the bare necessity's so it only need a few things to remain happy and healthy, whereas a retic for example has a much higher emotional intellect therefor, there are more demands that have to be meet in order for a snake with a higher emotional IQ to be sustained as far as sufficient enrichment. In leman's royals are dumb :) haha
(we see the same in different spices of dogs i.e a Border Collie intelligence next to a staffy for example is night and day.)
Admittedly, the semi-arboreal tendencies of royals, (I think to call them that is still a big stretch but for arguments sake lets call them that..) are not meet in a rack nor are the beneficial factors of UVB. yet in a VIV set up you are not ticking the boxes for security, ambiance (balancing humidity under a ceramic is a nightmare). So when you balance the Pros and Cons for Rack vs VIVs, Royals favour Racks by quite a considerable margin.
so for purely just Royals,.. Rack systems are the better option for this species, it just so happens that Racks are also more convenient for the breeder too which is where alot of people have the problem, and its one of fundamentals that makes them so popular.
My animals Eat, Breed and Thrive in rack systems and my surplus that find themselves under someone else's care in a VIV set up tend to regress.
I must stress on I'm only supporting Racks for royals, as I feel their species specific requirements better atone for the environment rack system provided.
all that said the industry awaits rack systems with built in UVB lighting that would be a huge leap forwards.
Would you mind citing your sources for this information? I would really appreciate reading the research supporting the information you’ve posted. I am doing behavioral research into several species of snakes. I also research cognition and will post some links to published data about snake brain structure, neurochemical production in snake brains, and MRI images of the brain of Python regius in an additional comment. The study below is relevant to the specific topic of this podcast episode:
www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.02.429328v1.full
The small experiment we conducted here with two Python regius concur with this study. Stereotypies were observed in rack-style tubs during times the snakes were awake. When given the choice and control to move between the tub and fully furnished habitat, both snakes moved into the habitat, stereotypies extinguished, and species typical behaviors of burrowing, climbing, spending time in damp moss, semi-arboreal ambush posture on perches, and resting on ledges were observed.
Reptile brains including those of snakes share the same vertebrate brain plan as all vertebrates with the same or homologous structures as other vertebrates and mammals. Snake brains produce dopamine and other neurochemicals produced by the nervous system of other vertebrates, the specific study on snakes was actually done on Python regius. The Python regius brain as well as the brains of other reptile species has been scanned using MRI technology and publicly available to view. The chemical we know oxytocin is found in all mammals, but it’s part of an ancient group of chemicals found throughout the animal kingdom. Octopuses have their own version, as do birds and reptiles (mesotocin) and fish (isotocin) National Geographic, 2012).
Link to snake brain structure:
lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/The%20reptilian%20brain.pdf?token=AWzlIgltrVjOor75vwqGBsAWWubkrgyZvoEWiSUOPE7_blemwFHf5AfcxyTSMwbmqXBQjbZmDUKuBqHkY_b0Hkc7F-Z3j0lrJtD_9YaAaUj5CrIHG8HzXTQNGWOMydcEFOi3FKYlqIvf-_8eP-5vTbT9s7Ykh-jQhbH00krNaodcmfhp3Hvj4h0dW-lD-GB0F23co55vCbhU3iaR8x47UT5t
Link to dopamine study in Royal Pythons:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3385007/
Link to images of Python regius brains:
zenodo.org/record/3626697#.YB8FKqRHYlQ
Link to one of several studies regarding emotion emerging in reptiles paving the way for its development in mammals:
www.researchgate.net/publication/13079527_Emotion_and_Phylogeny