i personally prefer the retraced bowline or bowline on a bight with stopper knot because it's easier to check for the belayer. it has always two parallel strings of rope like the figure-8
The 1:40 is not a Yosemite finish-Not that you claimed it was, but why do you believe it could be more convenient to use the one shown here instead of the Yosemite finish?
The Yosemite finish if tied incorrectly can go catastrophically wrong, and I wouldn't say it's difficult to tie wrong either. I think this method is slightly easier to follow and more fool proof, hopefully it will prevent a few accidents.
Interesting variation on the Yosemite finish there, just taking the free end under the trapping loop and out of the collar without it going round the leg of the main loop first. Can't see anything wrong with it, and it does prevent that potential collapse which can occur with a badly tied Yosemite. I don't really like stopper knots. Because they're never loaded they come undone themselves very easily, leaving a naked bowline. I prefer what I call "internal locks" and have come round to using a very new variation which I found in Mark Gommers' fascinating paper "An Analysis of Bowlines". It's essentially an end-bound single bowline with yosemite finish. I started with the bowline when I began climbing over fifty years ago and have oscillated between it (with stopper) and the F-o-8 (both Karabiner-linked and re-thread) over the years, often depending on the policy of the centre I happened to be working in. I now think that, whilst the F-o-8 is still the best for beginners, for the experienced rope-savvy climber the new bowlines beat anything.
I've seen this method used by a professional guide for backing up a double-bowline. However, what I've noticed is that using this same method (as opposed to the Yosemite Finish) for backing up a standard bowline pulls the knot apart. Even with the standard bowline, one needs to assure they do not set the knot incorrectly, as this can also pull the knot apart.
Curious: if this is not a bow with a Yosemite finish, what is it? Is there a name for this? Is this a new knot? Has this knot been tested for breaking strength? Thx!
First of all great vid on the bowline knot. It's probably one of the most widely known knots after the square (reef) knot. I am wondering why you tied a double overhand as the stopper? To me this a little over complicated for practical use. While I'm not saying to not use them, I have never had an issue with a bowline coming undone even without a stopper when used in rescue scenarios or sailing applications. In reality, all a stopper does is keeps the extra bits of the tail from flopping around.
+Rudy Uhlman Thanks for your comment; from my experience tying a bowline without a stopper seems risky. Admittedly you don't hear of many accidents but when you do its almost always because the climber didn't finish with a stopper. With the double bowline and rethread in this video I think it's less of an issue but I'd still say the fishermans adds a significant safety element. Also I think for new climbers who are scared of the bowline it adds a psychological reassurance, as many newbies are taught only to tie in with a figure 8.
+Obsession Climbing , a knot most likely fails because it was improperly tied or improperly used. This is where training come in to play. I have tied both the fig8 and bowline thousands of times and both are great knots when used properly. I just thought it was odd that you used a double overhand as your stopper.
Rudy, the stopper is an integral part of the knot. There are many ways to lock off the end of a bowline and a stopper knot is only one of them, but a bowline without some sort of end dressing is not considered a secure knot for life-critical purposes-it's subject to undoing itself when cyclically loaded. People have died from this. A bowline without an end lock is, for all intents and purposes, not completely tied.
Hello, tradesman here (Lineman). I was wondering the same thing. I dont know the typical WLL (working load limit) of the average climbing rope, but I know the efficiency of even a single bowline is roughly 70%. Now, that being said, the efficiency of a figure 8 is closer to 80%, the trade off being its harder to untie. Considering my weight I'd feel comfortable putting my life in the ties of a 70% percent efficiency knot, but I was curious about tying a stopper as well as why you do the double. The efficiency of the knot doesn't really change between a single and a double, and I've put some serious weight on ropes without a stopper and its never been an issue. Basically, I'm wondering if I can just tie a single bowline and be fine.
I just had a short fall using a single bowline and threading the tail through as you did in this video. It took 10 minutes to get the knot undone and when we did the rope was seriously damaged and had to be chopped off. The double loop may have stopped that, but the climbing wall staff didn't recognise this as a safe knot when I showed them. As I say I didn't do the double wrap so it wasn't identical, but approach with caution.
If you found it hard to untie a bowline you did something wrong. When tied properly you can untie a bowline while hanging off it. This is why the boating industry use it to tie up their multi-tonne boats. If you don't dress a bowline properly it can fold on itself and be a pain to undo, when this happens it can also kink the rope pretty badly. Sounds like that's what happened. Compared with the fig 8 it is definitely harder on the rope, but you'll find the bowline is mostly used by us outdoor lead climbers who take falls and have to replace our ropes frequently anyway so it matters less if the end gets kinked after a few hard falls. If it helps I use a bowline on my outdoor lead ropes and climbing wall top ropes. But my own indoor lead ropes get treated to a fig 8 because I don't want to keep shortening my rope.
I would not use this knot for climbing to be honest. Better use the bowline on the bight where you make a normale bowline first, then you go through your harness a second time and finish it off like a figure-8 by following back until you come out at the front again. No stopper knot required, and if made correctly, just as safe as a figure-8. This knot can also be easily checked: double strands of rope, double loop through your harness, and the bowline-typical single loop at the front where the rope comes out. Here a link on how to make it. Its in german, but you can easily reproduce it. ruclips.net/video/t4lnFEzsnbU/видео.html This, and the figure-8 are the only knots approved by European alpine guidelines. Variations of the bowline with 'yosemite' finish or similar, have found to be unsafe since they need proper dressing and/or stopper knots and even then, there is a risk of opening them accidentally. With the knots mentioned above, there have been no reported incidents of knots opening. The main source of accidents are distractions when tying the knot (unfinished knot), or using the wrong site at your harness to tie in. (Tying into rubber bands etc.)
why would anyone use this instead of the figure 8? is there at least 1 real life situation where you cant do the 8 and have to do this instead? I doubt it
I don't know what kind of knot this is but it is not the double bowline, just check images on the internet or wikipedia. The double bowline has the rope going twice through your harness.
Okay, more research. This knot confuses me. I find multiple people showing exactly this knot as double bowline and other places where the knot is called the same but looks completely differently. Regional thing? Anyhow... do some research yourself
The 'double' thing refers to the double loop the 'rabbit comes out of' - in the same way there is a double or triple Fishermans Bend etc. You're right though, there is some ambiguity in the knot world which can be confusing. That's the distinction you always have to make when you see that word - do they mean 2 actual loops or are they talking about the knot.
holy Jesus lol I was very very good you did an excellent job at describing how to do that in fact all the videos you are the bomb sir I will be watching mor
Don't bother with the first part of the backup knot, just tie the double overhand below the Bowline instead of above it, this simplifies the knot greatly. You also need to work on you overhands as you tried to do a triple overhand and failed, which turned it back into a double overhand.
Well, if one can’t untie a figure of eight knot, if that is the only reason to use a bowline, one should probably work more on finger strength before picking up rock climbing in the first place.
- ties a double bowline and calls it a bowline - says a bowline isn't complete without a stopper knot The stopper knot is essential for climbing but it has nothing to do with the bowline itself.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Whoa...this is the simplest yet most effective video I've watched thus far on tying in with a double bowline! Thanks brother 🤙
i personally prefer the retraced bowline or bowline on a bight with stopper knot because it's easier to check for the belayer. it has always two parallel strings of rope like the figure-8
The 1:40 is not a Yosemite finish-Not that you claimed it was, but why do you believe it could be more convenient to use the one shown here instead of the Yosemite finish?
The Yosemite finish if tied incorrectly
can go catastrophically wrong, and I wouldn't say it's difficult to
tie wrong either. I think this method is slightly easier to follow
and more fool proof, hopefully it will prevent a few accidents.
Thanks! (:
Interesting variation on the Yosemite finish there, just taking the free end under the trapping loop and out of the collar without it going round the leg of the main loop first. Can't see anything wrong with it, and it does prevent that potential collapse which can occur with a badly tied Yosemite.
I don't really like stopper knots. Because they're never loaded they come undone themselves very easily, leaving a naked bowline. I prefer what I call "internal locks" and have come round to using a very new variation which I found in Mark Gommers' fascinating paper "An Analysis of Bowlines". It's essentially an end-bound single bowline with yosemite finish.
I started with the bowline when I began climbing over fifty years ago and have oscillated between it (with stopper) and the F-o-8 (both Karabiner-linked and re-thread) over the years, often depending on the policy of the centre I happened to be working in. I now think that, whilst the F-o-8 is still the best for beginners, for the experienced rope-savvy climber the new bowlines beat anything.
I've seen this method used by a professional guide for backing up a double-bowline. However, what I've noticed is that using this same method (as opposed to the Yosemite Finish) for backing up a standard bowline pulls the knot apart.
Even with the standard bowline, one needs to assure they do not set the knot incorrectly, as this can also pull the knot apart.
your videos are great. you do an excellent job explaining the subject matter. thank you!
+Anthony Penciu Your welcome, thanks for the feedback!
Curious: if this is not a bow with a Yosemite finish, what is it? Is there a name for this? Is this a new knot? Has this knot been tested for breaking strength? Thx!
First of all great vid on the bowline knot. It's probably one of the most widely known knots after the square (reef) knot. I am wondering why you tied a double overhand as the stopper? To me this a little over complicated for practical use. While I'm not saying to not use them, I have never had an issue with a bowline coming undone even without a stopper when used in rescue scenarios or sailing applications. In reality, all a stopper does is keeps the extra bits of the tail from flopping around.
+Rudy Uhlman
Thanks for your comment; from my
experience tying a bowline without a stopper seems risky. Admittedly
you don't hear of many accidents but when you do its almost always
because the climber didn't finish with a stopper. With the double
bowline and rethread in this video I think it's less of an issue but
I'd still say the fishermans adds a significant safety element. Also
I think for new climbers who are scared of the bowline it adds a
psychological reassurance, as many newbies are taught only to tie in
with a figure 8.
+Obsession Climbing , a knot most likely fails because it was improperly tied or improperly used. This is where training come in to play. I have tied both the fig8 and bowline thousands of times and both are great knots when used properly. I just thought it was odd that you used a double overhand as your stopper.
Rudy, the stopper is an integral part of the knot. There are many ways to lock off the end of a bowline and a stopper knot is only one of them, but a bowline without some sort of end dressing is not considered a secure knot for life-critical purposes-it's subject to undoing itself when cyclically loaded. People have died from this. A bowline without an end lock is, for all intents and purposes, not completely tied.
Hello, tradesman here (Lineman). I was wondering the same thing. I dont know the typical WLL (working load limit) of the average climbing rope, but I know the efficiency of even a single bowline is roughly 70%. Now, that being said, the efficiency of a figure 8 is closer to 80%, the trade off being its harder to untie. Considering my weight I'd feel comfortable putting my life in the ties of a 70% percent efficiency knot, but I was curious about tying a stopper as well as why you do the double. The efficiency of the knot doesn't really change between a single and a double, and I've put some serious weight on ropes without a stopper and its never been an issue. Basically, I'm wondering if I can just tie a single bowline and be fine.
I just had a short fall using a single bowline and threading the tail through as you did in this video. It took 10 minutes to get the knot undone and when we did the rope was seriously damaged and had to be chopped off. The double loop may have stopped that, but the climbing wall staff didn't recognise this as a safe knot when I showed them. As I say I didn't do the double wrap so it wasn't identical, but approach with caution.
If you found it hard to untie a bowline you did something wrong. When tied properly you can untie a bowline while hanging off it. This is why the boating industry use it to tie up their multi-tonne boats.
If you don't dress a bowline properly it can fold on itself and be a pain to undo, when this happens it can also kink the rope pretty badly. Sounds like that's what happened.
Compared with the fig 8 it is definitely harder on the rope, but you'll find the bowline is mostly used by us outdoor lead climbers who take falls and have to replace our ropes frequently anyway so it matters less if the end gets kinked after a few hard falls.
If it helps I use a bowline on my outdoor lead ropes and climbing wall top ropes. But my own indoor lead ropes get treated to a fig 8 because I don't want to keep shortening my rope.
I use the "magic" fig 8...I avoid to use any type of bowline knot.
Simple and easy to do it
I would not use this knot for climbing to be honest.
Better use the bowline on the bight where you make a normale bowline first, then you go through your harness a second time and finish it off like a figure-8 by following back until you come out at the front again.
No stopper knot required, and if made correctly, just as safe as a figure-8.
This knot can also be easily checked: double strands of rope, double loop through your harness, and the bowline-typical single loop at the front where the rope comes out.
Here a link on how to make it. Its in german, but you can easily reproduce it.
ruclips.net/video/t4lnFEzsnbU/видео.html
This, and the figure-8 are the only knots approved by European alpine guidelines. Variations of the bowline with 'yosemite' finish or similar, have found to be unsafe since they need proper dressing and/or stopper knots and even then, there is a risk of opening them accidentally.
With the knots mentioned above, there have been no reported incidents of knots opening. The main source of accidents are distractions when tying the knot (unfinished knot), or using the wrong site at your harness to tie in. (Tying into rubber bands etc.)
8 tallknute må brukes... ser det er populært med yosemity knute. men mye mer komplisert,
This knot is harder on the rope than the rethreaded figure of eight.
why would anyone use this instead of the figure 8? is there at least 1 real life situation where you cant do the 8 and have to do this instead? I doubt it
I don't know what kind of knot this is but it is not the double bowline, just check images on the internet or wikipedia. The double bowline has the rope going twice through your harness.
Okay, more research. This knot confuses me. I find multiple people showing exactly this knot as double bowline and other places where the knot is called the same but looks completely differently. Regional thing? Anyhow... do some research yourself
You're thinking of the Bowline on the Bight, sometimes also called the rethreaded bowline.
The 'double' thing refers to the double loop the 'rabbit comes out of' - in the same way there is a double or triple Fishermans Bend etc. You're right though, there is some ambiguity in the knot world which can be confusing. That's the distinction you always have to make when you see that word - do they mean 2 actual loops or are they talking about the knot.
holy Jesus lol I was very very good you did an excellent job at describing how to do that in fact all the videos you are the bomb sir I will be watching mor
Don't bother with the first part of the backup knot, just tie the double overhand below the Bowline instead of above it, this simplifies the knot greatly. You also need to work on you overhands as you tried to do a triple overhand and failed, which turned it back into a double overhand.
Seems like overkill. I’ve used a single bowline with no backup knot. Works fine
You should never climb on a single bowline without a backup knot, it can work itself undone
@@mrthirty1139 Yeah I did more research and you're right. My bad.
Well, if one can’t untie a figure of eight knot, if that is the only reason to use a bowline, one should probably work more on finger strength before picking up rock climbing in the first place.
- ties a double bowline and calls it a bowline
- says a bowline isn't complete without a stopper knot
The stopper knot is essential for climbing but it has nothing to do with the bowline itself.
Tie in to your loop. That's what it's there for.
All great until you mentioned the stopper knot, which does nothing. But a great video overall.