Lol exactly my thoughts! I used to haul fuel. A large pony motor will pump at around 800 gallons per minute. Some of ours were 400. But then, we didn't have 5+ Gs helping out!
Imagine going into a petrol station with Starship and saying 'fill it up' the bank of England can't print money that fast, THANKFULLY, the corrupt uk governments don't often spend it that fast either.
Hi Marcus ... KISS engineering based on 1st principles yields very simple solutions to these problems. Keep both propellants at different pressures so the boiling points are identical, and solve the freezing point problem by design (IE they both ARE NOT 6 bar). In large tanks convection induced natural pumping between the hot side and cold sides of the tank in space will provide a passive version of active cooling by design (E convection circulation inside the liquids). Either a solar electric, or thermal "steam" engine, can provide an active compression pump to recondense propellants back to liquid form from boil off, simply using "free energy" from the environments temperature differentials. Clearly the best part is no part, if other solutions are enough. Tumble/roll/spin the craft in space to balance average temps on surfaces, while choosing the best side to the sun when landing on the surface of the moon and mars. Pointing the aft engine bay into the sun, exposes different and CRITICAL engine parts to extreme temp differences and thermal gradients - Much better to choose pointing the nose into the sun when the solar energy is spread across a MUCH larger area, where thermal differences and thermal gradients have very little impact on the craft. The nose end is already designed for these gradients due to reentry plasma, the engine end less so with smaller tubes/wires that lack thermal mass to absorb high temps.
4 minutes in the video and it blows my mind imagining all the steps, the years of years and people working on problems and patents and.. It just goes on. Thanks for the video Marcus
@@holographic_red The pipe inside the tank is amazingly complex. All of it must be precisely welded. There is no room for error, and live testing is the best way to check for the correct design. It blows my mind when I think of all the failed attempts to land and how each one led to new improvements. Software and hardware must be upgraded every flight to get it more reliable. SpaceX rocket engineers are the best in the world.
They are routing propellants through liquid nitrogen using small ppipes submerged in the liquid nitrogen tank, which is colder and so the propellants temperature drops as it exits and is then loaded into the vehicle. Heat absorbed from the propellants causes a portion of liquid nitrogen to turn back into gas form which is then vented, carrying the heat away from the subchiller. I hope this helps.
In 2005 I built a liquefier for natural gas using LN2 and the municipal natural gas in our hangar, but it was a terrible idea- there were so many contaminants in the city gas that the heat exchanger would clog up quickly with water, CO2, mercaptans, and god knows what else. We also had to keep the LN2 pressure about 80 psi with a relief valve so that it couldn't freeze the GNG, and that added more hassle to running the system without automated controls. When we scaled up we just pulled a dewar on a trailer to an LNG fueling stating in Lancaster and swiped a credit card to fill up, MUCH easier, we quickly re-learned that processing chemicals instead of buying them was a bad idea.
Marcus...well done. You always make the difficult easier to understand. I think in the not too distant future, all propulsion will be replaced by something we haven't even thought of yet.
Hi Marcus ... KISS engineering based on 1st principles yields very simple solutions to these problems. First keep both propellants at different pressures so the boilding points are identical, and solve the freezing point problem by design (IE they both ARE NOT 6 bar). Second in large tanks convection induced natural pumping between the hot side and cold sides of the tank in space will provide a passive version of active cooling by design (E convection circulation inside the liquids). Lastly either a solar electric, or thermal "steam" engine, can provide an active compression pump to recondense propellants back to liquid form from boil off, simply using "free energy" from the environments temperature differentials. Tumble/roll/spin the craft in space to balance average temps on surfaces, while choosing the best side to the sun when landing on the surface of the moon and mars.
Love the new format! Learning about fundamental rocket science with so many actual examples and great footage is much better than learning about the latest girder or truck that was moved in Boca Chica
Really love your deep dive format/approach on these focus videos, this one especially seemed to take us right along the pathway of problem solving and the pressure differential gave me a lightbulb moment too! Hope you're enjoying your well earned break, thanks for keeping us "fed" while you're away!!
To solve pressure needed and the sloshing problem I always imagined either a large bag or plunger system to maintain needed pressure and keep slosh to zero . But that would weigh a bunch I suppose , and a bag would be eaten unless made of fancy stuff . I'm sure there is a clever yet simple way to fix these issues -- looking forward to hearing about them soon .
Wonderful presentation no irony comments or double standards suggestions. No reusable videos that made you tired to see them again and again. Really like this channel 😊
Thanks Marcus, this video was really helpful to understand some of the next steps and the new challenges that SpaceX will have to face when embarking on its journey to the moon, Mars or beyond. You gave me a lot of information that I didn't have in mind.
Never forget that the best insulation is a vacuum. I would not be at all surprised to discover it is used at certain points in Starship and booster construction.
I think this is one of your best videos. Your explanations and discussions of the challenges and possible solutions were very interesting. Thanks for your excellent content!
Very interesting! I'd wondered about the boiling of oxygen and freezing of methane - that common dome sure looked sketchy. It's good to know that a)I wasn't crazy to wonder about that and b)there's a reason it works out. Starship development is one of the most important things going on in the world today as it will open space to us, so I always tune in every Saturday morning for your updates and deep dives. When I was a kid in the 1980s, Saturday mornings were for cartoons, now they're for Marcus House videos.
Very nice physics "deep" dive. I really enjoyed it. It's the difference between "just" space news and technical background that makes me like your channel so much ❤
Another way to prevent fuel freezing is counterintuitively to add some ethane or propane. These can make a eutectic mixture with methane with a freezing point as low as 72K and only very slightly reduce Isp while increasing density.
9:30 - Space is cold. Stuff in space is _not_ cold (if there's any heat source near/in them). Easy, simple heat transfer is something we take for granted here in Earth, inside a fairly dense atmosphere. You start removing the stuff that can carry away heat and you find out quickly that heat management becomes a problem that requires an engineered solution.
There is no reason for liquid methane and liquid oxygen in their tanks sitting on the launch pad to be at 1 bar of pressure. They have to be at a much higher pressure for the vehicle to have structural integrity, especially when loaded and that pressure in the booster has to support the entire weight of the loaded ship.
Hey hey. Another great saturday morning video. I always look forward to seeing these. Thank you for making it so I don't get the shakes until your return.😮
I've just rewatched this video 5 weeks later, as it was referenced in the 24th July '24 vid. Seeing the separate downcomer pipes on their jig makes sense too.
The original 90's Artemis Project was based on hydrolox. We proposed a centrifugal gas separator to avoid ejecting liquified cryogenics during zero g boil-off to reduce losses.
@@testpilotmafia862 The liquefied propellants are mixed with the gaseous propellants because bubbles don't float in zero g. So the tank vent exits via a vortex chamber. The denser liquid is thrown to the outside of the vortex by centripetal force, where it is skimmed off and pumped back into the tank.
@@testpilotmafia862 Sadly the Artemis Data Book was taken offline a couple of decades back, but there's a more recent paper by a different bunch. Web search for FEDSM2016-7793
Your work is as always amazing. Best breakdown of the temperature storage issue for the layman I've ever seen. This shows one of the many problems SpaceX has to work with.
Well woww! As we all know, Tim set the benchmark (and Dam-high it was too!) for presenting 'Team space' information to us. As the years passed and Tim matured his channel (Everyday astronaut), he delighted us by starting to take deeper dives, Marcus & Space excentric slotted very equally into 2nd place with the very best of the rest all way back in the 'wannabee' section. I have said it several times in the last year, but every month Marcus expands the rapidly emerging gap behind him and he is now exclusively in second place to our forever hero Tim. As Marcus joyfully gets better & better, sadly Space excentric falls further and further behind. As Elon often reminds us, Space is difficult. As Space excentric and dozens of others all show us, Space reporting is also difficult! Well done Marcus. This level of quality is going to be hard to maintain, but I bet theres millions of folk wishing you well. Thanks Marcus,
I tried following your explanations Marcus, but this was one of the reasons I never took any chemistry classes while in college. But thx-at least I now know how difficult powering rockets can be for engineers.
You can imagine how much more of a problem this will be for the orbital tanker. Going from hot to cold every 45 mins or so..... Storing both propellants for days... weeks? Cryogenic propellants are great for reaching orbit, but once you're up there and using refueling methods, you want to switch back to storable room temperature propellants... Like Kero/HTP or Alcohol/HTP (for reusable engines) - both combinations are hypergolic, but aren't expensive or too toxic. They can be stored in bladders for easy propellant transfer. Plus HTP is multipurpose, it can serve as oxidizer, radiation shielding, RCS monopropellant and for life support to create heat, oxygen, water and electrical energy - which is useful for long space missions. :)
Thank u Marcus for this deep dive into this existential challenge for Starship long duration missions. Am sure folks at SpaceX have a solution but either way it is a great commercial viability challenge.
i'm wondering how convection works in micro-gravity, with a hot and a cold side. maybe temperature control of the fuel is as simple as keeping it stirred, pumps, convection, rotation. and controlling the angle towards the sun to regulate the amount of heat collected
Awesome, awesome long video. On rewatching a second time, I noticed the animation and "Extreme Temperatures" label around 17:38 is all wrong. Should refer to the +120/-160 range, but don't. Off to look for videos about why the ISS is warm/needs those coolers.
When starship was presented to NASA as a solution for moon landing, I would have imagined the fuel issue would have been at the front of everyone's mind. Designs, numbers would have been presented... Let's hope so 👍
For the orbital propellant depot, it is likely necessary to insulate both the common dome bulkhead and methane transfer pipes. I would prefer to empty the large downcomer except during launch and landing. Otherwise, a vacuum insulated double-wall technique is likely needed for the methane downcomer pipe, plus methane circulation or heating inside. As for the sun shade, it will need to totally shade the oxygen tank and partially shade the methane tank. There will likely also need to be a Mylar radiation barrier just for blocking Earth glow.
A very good way to cool down the ship in orbit would be to put the reflective side toward the sun and the heat shield in shade. It will work exactly the same as an emergency blanket (or the Multi Layer Insulation used in satellite): one side is super reflective, and the other side super emissive (capable of big radiative exchange). So if you put the reflective side toward the sun, no radiative exchange will occurs, and the other side will exchange by radiative means with the cold space. Being the hot source, the ship will cool down naturally. The best way they can do that is like in the video having the reflective side on the bottom with the engine bay, and radiate the heat on the hole body
This was a sophisticated discussion involving thermal dynamics and other sciences. Generally, people do not get exposed to the complex engineering challenges in producing technology like this - rockets, propellant storage, material science, space travel, etc. Nice job Marcus and team in making it understandable.
Love the deep dive videos. So much to be sorted along the path to multi planet people. My 2cents. Inflatable shields from vented gas. Plus. A steady roll to create an even 'all over tan'. An engine rear end inflatable solar shield would be used in the last stages of Luna landing.
Thank you for this video, Marcus. I love it when you guys do these deep dives. And you're totally right that fuel boil-off is one of the greatest challenges SpaceX faces on any long duration space mission. They must have some ideas on the drawing board, or they wouldn't have gotten the lander contract from NASA.
Oh, SpaceX has this fully planned I'm sure. We just don't publicly know how they are solving these problems. I find it fascinating to research these topics.
Wow! That was a hole lot of data. I appreciate your digging, calculations, and presention. I understand the issues much more now. In fact, I didn't even know they existed. There is certainly a lot more to launching Starship than filling it full of propellant and lighting the engines.
The main reasons something like the ISS has radiators is a lack of convection in space. There is no other way to bleed heat, as there is no air to carry it away, so radiation is the only cooling option.
🎉 HEY HEY 🎉
💕
A bit of hey hey, then some hullo . A good Saturday
🎉❤👌
@@andrewpyrahnot as much as Scott 😅 HULLLLOOOOOOO
@@JohnMuz1 👋
7:34 I'm trying to wrap my brain cells around 5 tons per second fuel flow 🤯
Lol exactly my thoughts! I used to haul fuel. A large pony motor will pump at around 800 gallons per minute. Some of ours were 400. But then, we didn't have 5+ Gs helping out!
Imagine going into a petrol station with Starship and saying 'fill it up' the bank of England can't print money that fast, THANKFULLY, the corrupt uk governments don't often spend it that fast either.
It's hard enough dealing with quoted flows over and through dams after storms, and that's when we can see it going.
@@professor-viewsalot Way to shoehorn politics into a completely unrelated topic and country.
@@iamaduckquackI think the professor has a good view of his backside.
Hi Marcus ... KISS engineering based on 1st principles yields very simple solutions to these problems.
Keep both propellants at different pressures so the boiling points are identical, and solve the freezing point problem by design (IE they both ARE NOT 6 bar).
In large tanks convection induced natural pumping between the hot side and cold sides of the tank in space will provide a passive version of active cooling by design (E convection circulation inside the liquids).
Either a solar electric, or thermal "steam" engine, can provide an active compression pump to recondense propellants back to liquid form from boil off, simply using "free energy" from the environments temperature differentials. Clearly the best part is no part, if other solutions are enough.
Tumble/roll/spin the craft in space to balance average temps on surfaces, while choosing the best side to the sun when landing on the surface of the moon and mars.
Pointing the aft engine bay into the sun, exposes different and CRITICAL engine parts to extreme temp differences and thermal gradients - Much better to choose pointing the nose into the sun when the solar energy is spread across a MUCH larger area, where thermal differences and thermal gradients have very little impact on the craft. The nose end is already designed for these gradients due to reentry plasma, the engine end less so with smaller tubes/wires that lack thermal mass to absorb high temps.
4 minutes in the video and it blows my mind imagining all the steps, the years of years and people working on problems and patents and.. It just goes on. Thanks for the video Marcus
And yet they learn nothing at SpaceX!
@@rogerforsman5064Hi :) and that means? I can't read your mind
@@holographic_red The pipe inside the tank is amazingly complex. All of it must be precisely welded. There is no room for error, and live testing is the best way to check for the correct design. It blows my mind when I think of all the failed attempts to land and how each one led to new improvements. Software and hardware must be upgraded every flight to get it more reliable. SpaceX rocket engineers are the best in the world.
@@rogerforsman5064 And this is the poster child of the pot TRYING to call the kettle black!
@@ToIsleOfView And still they did not count for momentum of the liquid fuel that ruptured the tank!
Mind-blowing! Thanks for this deep dive
Love your humility Marcus... This one was eye opener for me. Your explanation is very appreciated.
Great explanations. Incredible complexity.
Ah, Saturday afternoon sat down with a cup of tea and a biscuit, and the latest video from Marcus. Pure joy. Life is good.
@@wolfgang617 Happy Saturday!
You're an awesome human for that. Good on ya!
Thanks for this deep dive. I didn't understand how those sub-chillers work, but it makes so much sense now.
They are routing propellants through liquid nitrogen using small ppipes submerged in the liquid nitrogen tank, which is colder and so the propellants temperature drops as it exits and is then loaded into the vehicle. Heat absorbed from the propellants causes a portion of liquid nitrogen to turn back into gas form which is then vented, carrying the heat away from the subchiller. I hope this helps.
@@yumazsterI had the same question. Thank you for the succinct explanation.
@@MikesTropicalTech Glad it helped. Thanks to @yumazster for the added context.
@@MarcusHouse You are welcome 😁
In 2005 I built a liquefier for natural gas using LN2 and the municipal natural gas in our hangar, but it was a terrible idea- there were so many contaminants in the city gas that the heat exchanger would clog up quickly with water, CO2, mercaptans, and god knows what else. We also had to keep the LN2 pressure about 80 psi with a relief valve so that it couldn't freeze the GNG, and that added more hassle to running the system without automated controls.
When we scaled up we just pulled a dewar on a trailer to an LNG fueling stating in Lancaster and swiped a credit card to fill up, MUCH easier, we quickly re-learned that processing chemicals instead of buying them was a bad idea.
Marcus...well done. You always make the difficult easier to understand. I think in the not too distant future, all propulsion will be replaced by something we haven't even thought of yet.
Hi Marcus ... KISS engineering based on 1st principles yields very simple solutions to these problems. First keep both propellants at different pressures so the boilding points are identical, and solve the freezing point problem by design (IE they both ARE NOT 6 bar). Second in large tanks convection induced natural pumping between the hot side and cold sides of the tank in space will provide a passive version of active cooling by design (E convection circulation inside the liquids). Lastly either a solar electric, or thermal "steam" engine, can provide an active compression pump to recondense propellants back to liquid form from boil off, simply using "free energy" from the environments temperature differentials. Tumble/roll/spin the craft in space to balance average temps on surfaces, while choosing the best side to the sun when landing on the surface of the moon and mars.
@@totally_lost1602 Nice summary of solutions!
Love the new format! Learning about fundamental rocket science with so many actual examples and great footage is much better than learning about the latest girder or truck that was moved in Boca Chica
Really love your deep dive format/approach on these focus videos, this one especially seemed to take us right along the pathway of problem solving and the pressure differential gave me a lightbulb moment too! Hope you're enjoying your well earned break, thanks for keeping us "fed" while you're away!!
A great video as always Marcus. Your positive energy on my Saturday morning is always appreciated.
To solve pressure needed and the sloshing problem I always imagined either a large bag or plunger system to maintain needed pressure and keep slosh to zero . But that would weigh a bunch I suppose , and a bag would be eaten unless made of fancy stuff . I'm sure there is a clever yet simple way to fix these issues -- looking forward to hearing about them soon .
I love the periodic Marcus House deep dive videos! Some of my favorites.
Excellent video today Marcus. I think you struck a nice balance between technical depth and approachability.
Thanks, really great to have this more technical content from you and your team. Know it's hard to assemble, hope to see more. All the best
Fantastic explanation of the tank farm process. My hat is off to you.
Glad you enjoyed it
I Nominate Marcus House for best edutainment award on RUclips
😃
Wonderful presentation no irony comments or double standards suggestions. No reusable videos that made you tired to see them again and again. Really like this channel 😊
Thank you very much!
Thankyou again for such a well researched video. Always delivered in such a great way. Never disappointed.🎉
Super deep dive into a fascinating topic, Marcus, thanks ever so much! I hope you and your family are having a great well-deserved vacation!
Thanks Marcus, this video was really helpful to understand some of the next steps and the new challenges that SpaceX will have to face when embarking on its journey to the moon, Mars or beyond. You gave me a lot of information that I didn't have in mind.
Never forget that the best insulation is a vacuum. I would not be at all surprised to discover it is used at certain points in Starship and booster construction.
If I didn't have such mechanical forces on the tanks
@@VinlaellYeah, these things are basically Pepsi cans
The downcomer and major fuel lines can be vacuum jacketed to isolate them, it's standard practice in lots of cryogenic systems.
Vacuum is also great for sun - shades !
I think this is one of your best videos. Your explanations and discussions of the challenges and possible solutions were very interesting. Thanks for your excellent content!
Unbelievably complicated, fantastiicslly skillful rocket engineers,wish i was half as clever as those guys 👍
Somehow.. I always feel smarter after watching these types of videos.... Great video.
Very interesting! I'd wondered about the boiling of oxygen and freezing of methane - that common dome sure looked sketchy. It's good to know that a)I wasn't crazy to wonder about that and b)there's a reason it works out. Starship development is one of the most important things going on in the world today as it will open space to us, so I always tune in every Saturday morning for your updates and deep dives. When I was a kid in the 1980s, Saturday mornings were for cartoons, now they're for Marcus House videos.
Awesome deep dive! Thank you!
Thank you Marcus, excellent explanation 😊
Love the snippet of green exhaust as the copper in the combustion chamber burns off 7:04
Thank you Marcus for calling covering this topic. Very informative and allows me to understand the design challenges that SpaceX is facing!
Great video. I think this is my favorite Marcus House video yet.
the best, most interesting video I have seen from you. and I think I'm close to having seen them all!
Wow, thanks!
Wow! That piping is a piece of art! What an engineering nightmare the people that figured this out are definitively amazing.
Thanks for explaining this. I don't think I have ever heard this before.
Thanks for all the engineering details. I was able to follow the explanations and appreciate the challenges.
Great job!
Excellent thermodynamics lesson. You rock!
Great job explaining all that Marcus ! Peace and love !
Very nice physics "deep" dive. I really enjoyed it. It's the difference between "just" space news and technical background that makes me like your channel so much ❤
This is an insane amount of detail! Ty Marcus!
Another great video! Loved the Tank Farm breakdown. Thank you!
Been following your channel for a long time, Marcus. Your content is just getting better and better. Thank you for your hard work with your team.
Thank you!
Another way to prevent fuel freezing is counterintuitively to add some ethane or propane. These can make a eutectic mixture with methane with a freezing point as low as 72K and only very slightly reduce Isp while increasing density.
9:30 - Space is cold. Stuff in space is _not_ cold (if there's any heat source near/in them).
Easy, simple heat transfer is something we take for granted here in Earth, inside a fairly dense atmosphere. You start removing the stuff that can carry away heat and you find out quickly that heat management becomes a problem that requires an engineered solution.
search vacuum insulated stainless tubing
They look like regular SS tubes, but a vacuum insulated.
Thanks Marc for getting the message about Fahrenheit. Love it! Better understanding. Keep the great episodes coming.
- NOM
Excellent research, need more of this!
Well done, as always!
Enjoyed that. My brain feels nourished! Cheers
Great video Marcus! Really well researched.
A brilliant segue. Well done.
There is no reason for liquid methane and liquid oxygen in their tanks sitting on the launch pad to be at 1 bar of pressure. They have to be at a much higher pressure for the vehicle to have structural integrity, especially when loaded and that pressure in the booster has to support the entire weight of the loaded ship.
Yeah! The tanks are referred to as pressure vessels and operate at a pressure above one bar.
Outstanding work once again Marcus :) Thank you sir.
Hey hey. Another great saturday morning video. I always look forward to seeing these. Thank you for making it so I don't get the shakes until your return.😮
I've just rewatched this video 5 weeks later, as it was referenced in the 24th July '24 vid. Seeing the separate downcomer pipes on their jig makes sense too.
Fascinating piece on yet another factor in rocket design I hadn't come across.
Thank you for this ; I will show it to my Physics students
Glad it was helpful!
Another great Deep Dive! Keep up the good work!
The original 90's Artemis Project was based on hydrolox. We proposed a centrifugal gas separator to avoid ejecting liquified cryogenics during zero g boil-off to reduce losses.
How does this work ?
@@testpilotmafia862 The liquefied propellants are mixed with the gaseous propellants because bubbles don't float in zero g. So the tank vent exits via a vortex chamber. The denser liquid is thrown to the outside of the vortex by centripetal force, where it is skimmed off and pumped back into the tank.
@@VikOlliver whoa! Is there a formal design I could look for online ?
@@testpilotmafia862 Sadly the Artemis Data Book was taken offline a couple of decades back, but there's a more recent paper by a different bunch. Web search for FEDSM2016-7793
Your work is as always amazing. Best breakdown of the temperature storage issue for the layman I've ever seen. This shows one of the many problems SpaceX has to work with.
Thanks for another very interesting video you've made for us, this is getting very exciting!
Very informative. Thank you
Well woww!
As we all know, Tim set the benchmark (and Dam-high it was too!) for presenting 'Team space' information to us.
As the years passed and Tim matured his channel (Everyday astronaut), he delighted us by starting to take deeper dives, Marcus & Space excentric slotted very equally into 2nd place with the very best of the rest all way back in the 'wannabee' section.
I have said it several times in the last year, but every month Marcus expands the rapidly emerging gap behind him and he is now exclusively in second place to our forever hero Tim.
As Marcus joyfully gets better & better, sadly Space excentric falls further and further behind.
As Elon often reminds us, Space is difficult.
As Space excentric and dozens of others all show us, Space reporting is also difficult!
Well done Marcus.
This level of quality is going to be hard to maintain, but I bet theres millions of folk wishing you well.
Thanks Marcus,
Glad you enjoy what we do. Thank you!
Nice that you traversed what to us is a new topic. Thank you! ❤
I tried following your explanations Marcus, but this was one of the reasons I never took any chemistry classes while in college. But thx-at least I now know how difficult powering rockets can be for engineers.
Great content as usual!
Thank you! ❤
Great in depth Video!
Love your videos man keeps me happy
GREAT INFO, Thank You so much.
You can imagine how much more of a problem this will be for the orbital tanker.
Going from hot to cold every 45 mins or so.....
Storing both propellants for days... weeks?
Cryogenic propellants are great for reaching orbit, but once you're up there and using refueling methods, you want to switch back to storable room temperature propellants...
Like Kero/HTP or Alcohol/HTP (for reusable engines) - both combinations are hypergolic, but aren't expensive or too toxic. They can be stored in bladders for easy propellant transfer.
Plus HTP is multipurpose, it can serve as oxidizer, radiation shielding, RCS monopropellant and for life support to create heat, oxygen, water and electrical energy - which is useful for long space missions. :)
This is a class video. RUclips at it's best. Will watch it again, and thanks, Marcus 👍 ❤
Why not install heating coils placed strategic places where they're freezing can be halted.
Thank u Marcus for this deep dive into this existential challenge for Starship long duration missions. Am sure folks at SpaceX have a solution but either way it is a great commercial viability challenge.
Nice one Marcus, cheers buddy 🍻
i'm wondering how convection works in micro-gravity, with a hot and a cold side. maybe temperature control of the fuel is as simple as keeping it stirred, pumps, convection, rotation. and controlling the angle towards the sun to regulate the amount of heat collected
Awesome, awesome long video. On rewatching a second time, I noticed the animation and "Extreme Temperatures" label around 17:38 is all wrong. Should refer to the +120/-160 range, but don't. Off to look for videos about why the ISS is warm/needs those coolers.
Great video, thank you thank you thank you!! I love these research videos CSI Starbase style!
Hi Marcus and team, that was fascinating - I was ignorant about nearly all of it: thank you for enlightening me. Great video, thank you so much.
this complexity problem will be benefits space exploration for sure, the fact they're working solutions to this and not run away from the problem
When starship was presented to NASA as a solution for moon landing, I would have imagined the fuel issue would have been at the front of everyone's mind. Designs, numbers would have been presented... Let's hope so 👍
@@neilm9400 all I know is that I haven't seen any such detail.
@@MarcusHouse As a SpaceX employee, I can say that the public gets to see a small fraction of all the information we have and are working on.
@@Lynx-vi3bi We see Elon's genius speeches to SpaceX staff, which numbed you all into silence with its brilliance......
@@MarcusHouse They're called blinkers, Marcus.
@@Lynx-vi3bi Yes, I'm certain that is true.
I would love to see a video with ideas for active cooling!
Learned a lot from this!
Throughly interesting video. .
Thank you MH + Team for putting this together. .
For the orbital propellant depot, it is likely necessary to insulate both the common dome bulkhead and methane transfer pipes.
I would prefer to empty the large downcomer except during launch and landing. Otherwise, a vacuum insulated double-wall technique is likely needed for the methane downcomer pipe, plus methane circulation or heating inside.
As for the sun shade, it will need to totally shade the oxygen tank and partially shade the methane tank. There will likely also need to be a Mylar radiation barrier just for blocking Earth glow.
Excellent show. Thanks;. Appreciated.
A very good way to cool down the ship in orbit would be to put the reflective side toward the sun and the heat shield in shade. It will work exactly the same as an emergency blanket (or the Multi Layer Insulation used in satellite): one side is super reflective, and the other side super emissive (capable of big radiative exchange).
So if you put the reflective side toward the sun, no radiative exchange will occurs, and the other side will exchange by radiative means with the cold space. Being the hot source, the ship will cool down naturally. The best way they can do that is like in the video having the reflective side on the bottom with the engine bay, and radiate the heat on the hole body
This was a sophisticated discussion involving thermal dynamics and other sciences. Generally, people do not get exposed to the complex engineering challenges in producing technology like this - rockets, propellant storage, material science, space travel, etc. Nice job Marcus and team in making it understandable.
Thank you.
Thanks Marcus. I bloody love space!!!!!
I would find discussion of cryogenics easier if the temperatures were reported in kelvins.
Love the deep dive videos.
So much to be sorted along the path to multi planet people.
My 2cents. Inflatable shields from vented gas. Plus. A steady roll to create an even 'all over tan'.
An engine rear end inflatable solar shield would be used in the last stages of Luna landing.
A commendable piece of research, Marcus!
As they are needed, each issue will be addressed and alieveated… love your vids, especially when you get with Manly and other people in the field… 😊
Glad you like them!
Thank you for this video, Marcus. I love it when you guys do these deep dives. And you're totally right that fuel boil-off is one of the greatest challenges SpaceX faces on any long duration space mission. They must have some ideas on the drawing board, or they wouldn't have gotten the lander contract from NASA.
Oh, SpaceX has this fully planned I'm sure. We just don't publicly know how they are solving these problems. I find it fascinating to research these topics.
very interesting, thanks!
Would love you to bring back the news, especially with so much happening
Wow! That was a hole lot of data. I appreciate your digging, calculations, and presention. I understand the issues much more now. In fact, I didn't even know they existed. There is certainly a lot more to launching Starship than filling it full of propellant and lighting the engines.
6:32 luv that steel mill scene
About gave me flashbacks. I ain't working in one of those again. 🥺
The main reasons something like the ISS has radiators is a lack of convection in space. There is no other way to bleed heat, as there is no air to carry it away, so radiation is the only cooling option.
This would make a great video to show in a chemistry or physics class! Good job.