Between DPE overshadowing it and Dragoon being banned in Master Duel, it's kinda crazy how quickly it left the public conscious despite how it was heralded as the bringer of the end times when it came out in the TCG.
It only got as much hype as it did based on how dominant it was in the slower control-centric OCG format. There was no chance it was ever gonna get banned here based on people summoning it from Red Eyes Fusion, Verte Anaconda was the main problem card.
@@GIR177 Also OCG didn't get Zeus until 3 formats later, so the best out for it was Dingirsu (hence Orcust being best deck for those formats). TCG got Zeus almost immediately after Dragoon and therefore only the casual/rogue scene (decks which can't make Zeus as easily) really suffered for it.
The easiest way to explain why Dragoon gets overshadowed by DPE is seeing how people reacting at opening with a Red-Eyes Fusion vs opening with a Fusion Destiny (in combo decks at least)
Well short story from what i could tell is a) There are easier omni negates out there with adventure then dragoon and b) DPE having the better engine as it basically is free link fodder and draw 2
1) Dragoon is an S tier monster with an F tier package while dpe is an A tier monster with A tier package (stolen). There are lots of good destiny hero monsters with gy effects (people are even testing fusion destiny with dangerous in despia) 2) OCG did not have the common staple outs (droplets, triple tac, even Zeus one may argue) that we had when we got him. 3) the discard to negate hurts. Imagine if dpe destroyed a card in your hand instead of field. 4) Better to summon a monster that will help you survive but also give you follow-up in case you get hit by a double handtrap play Overall, card can win games. It is insane going second if you manage to get to verte (can ever use charmer to steal a verte) but playing three awful cards isn't worth it. Also not worth summoning a negate that also loses to droplet (can negate rite though) while you can play stuff that helps you against board breakers.
In the OCG Dragun was a plan b in case the opponent has Maxx "C", some control decks also played 3 copies of Red-Eyes Fusion if they didn't want to summon that much. PK was a dominant deck there because it could stop their combo at any moment and still end on some Fog Blades. Flowanderize was predicted to break the OCG because it didn't special summon. It's actually quite amusing to watch how one little bug can dictate the entire format.
Yeah, its what i said when people hyper Flundereeze here. DO not get me wrong, i like the deck and play it rl cause its fun but the most contributing factor for the deck to be good in the OCG where it having access to Shifter/d.Fissure which killed PK and being immune to MAX . Here its at best tier2/rouge i would say
PK saw competitive success in the last format only. It got shafted after the limit of torn scale. Before their success in the previous ban list format, it was only ok at best. You want more proof? Rhongo is still legal over there. You'd think more people would abuse this card playing decks that can turbo this dude out (if you say six sam you are coping), but no people just didn't try it.
@@shen.daniel @S.D. I played PK in Master Duel for a while now, got rid of Rhongo after a couple of days. It's only good when going first uninterrupted, which is an extremely rare occasion there. I'd rather have a third Break Sword and a 4th material for Zeus when facing a full Drytron board. XD
I feel like Dragoon has largely been relegated in tcg to the verte target for rogue decks that can't capitalise on the DPE engine. For example, you play it in Appliancer because you value the negation and the ability to actually close a game out more because well, your appliancer monsters sure as shit aren't going to kill your opponent lmao
and the thing is, DPE is only really better because of the engines it enables, mostly owning up to the fact that being able to pop your own cards should like have a big blaring warning flag that it's going to break other cards to shit.
@@christheenbyVT Well DPE is better because thanks to Brave engine and Scythe, its part of a machinery. Dragoon is a lot like borrelsword dragon. Its your end swing. Thing is these days, you rather not save up for a big push against and established board but simply not allow your opponent to play. MBT did put it very nicely "The current Meta is different Tastes of your opponent does not get to play the game."
When I first started playing again in late 2020 I was like "wow Dragoon is busted this is gonna be a staple until it's banned", and even when DPE was announced I don't think I appreciated its constant self-recurrance -- but even besides that, the fusion destiny package is just so much easier to work with than the red eyes fusion package that even if you think DPE is a weaker card, I think the splashability of the DPE engine easily makes it the more flexible card.
That us the thing with konami, they shit chat red eyes, then gives the same effect but better with other decks, hell tell thus day there is not a good support for red eyes that is "red eyes" but dm and blue eyes getting supports after supports, and HEROs all in all works with each other Yet red eyes is able to set fear in anyone even tho it is a 5 vs 10 od archtype power, and red eyes wins alot of them
Dragoon has definitely been over-shadowed by DPE (which as a HERO fan makes me a bit happy that HEROES are being competitive in any way), but that doesnt nor shouldnt mean that Dragoon is a lesser card than DPE. DPE has great ability to dodge and pop things and bring himself back, while Dragoon is just a standard Omni-negate boss monster (bc we NEVER have enough of those /sarcasm). But what makes DPE so good is not just its ability to resurrect itself, but the materials that every non-HERO meta deck uses are Celestial and Dasher. Dasher can give you a free Special Summon, and Celestial can banish himself and Dasher to give you a Draw 2. DPE definitely gives the player a lot more flexibilty that just siting omni-negate monster that can eventually be taken out (or Kaiju'd) and you most likely will never get it back.
I disagree, I think both are good boss monsters for their archetype, it's just everyone fixates on red eyes fusion from deck when you could use any dragon with an effect instead of bricking on a red eyes. Eye of Timeus still applies (Albeit he can't do the two or one damage deal with the Eye but still negate which is what you'd want most anyway.) Secrets of Dark Magic, Fusion from the GY, ETC. He's just nerfed more because of the two things to cheese him out which thankfully were banned. Also yeah Kaiju can work but tbh magician deck is all about just swarming so it's easy to get another lol. A tier anyway, I think Perdaplant was the clear S though on support overall and why it was just ridiculously easy
For those wondering why Dragoon was much more powerful in the OCG, they have Maxx C legal, so Dragoon pass was a good board to end on if you were under Maxx C, a hard to kill omni negate while only drawing your opponent 1 card if you have REF in hand (3 if you go down the verte line, assuming 1 material is your normal summon and hence not counted towards Maxx C, otherwise it'd be 4). Would DPE have competed with that? Honestly I'm not sure, a big part of it was that if they were under Maxx C they could pass with a omni negate which was hard to deal with, but DPE removes itself (usually) from the field and has a lot more cards which out it, in the context of why the OCG used Dragoon, DPE doesn't really fill what they were looking for (obviously DPE IS really good in the OCG rn, I just mean how it would compete if Dragoon was legal.) Although it is possible I'm missing something and being stupid.
DPE of course competed with that, if not then why they banned Fusion Destiny before coming back to 1 after Verte got banned? Reason: 1. If Dragoon, an S tier boss monster with F tier package is a success in OCG, DPE (A tier Boss with A tier package) will also see a success. 2. You skipped the part where Fusion Destiny is far more cracked than REF, having restriction AFTER fusion has been conducted. 3. By nature, DPE's grind power itself is a favorable trait in OCG.
@@MVAS-mp9oo I think you forgot the part where Dragoon got banned in the OCG before DPE was legal so they never got to compete. Also your points have no relation to anything I said what so ever, I said DPE doesn't compete with Dragoon because it doesn't do what Dragoon was needed for in the OCG, being a good end boss under Maxx C while giving them as little cards as possible, that doesn't mean DPE wouldn't be a good card, it just means it doesn't compete with Dragoon, it has OTHER benefits.
He aint protected by Battle, shuffling Back in the extra Deck, moving him to the Graveyard, bouncing Back to the Hand. Just cant use a target effect for that. There are many Outs against that thing Just need to Bypass the negate
@@danielijust8776 all of those outs have to not get negated, only real outs are kaijus, drnm, droplet, sp etc... Still any of dragoon outs out dpe too so....
@@fnaz96 Usually you'll send "Destiny HERO - Celestial" to the grave to make DPE and by it's effect on GY, you can banish it and draw 2 cards. So it's not DPE who allows the draw but you use to make it.
There's one thing as well : dragoon is untargetable and indestructible by card effects, phoenix enforcer floats and can leave the field at any time to come back later, meaning he kinda has the same if not as strong level of protection, since he will not be on the field, the difference between your opponent cracking your board with dragoon and cracking a board with phoenix enforcer is much different
@@MsDestroyer900 Called By is at 1 in the TCG, which is where they’re both legal. But yes, DPE loses to Called By, D.D Crow, and Ghost Belle. It’s still better protection than Dragoon though, as none of those cards are in the extra deck, meaning there’s a chance you don’t even see them during the match.
@@MsDestroyer900 he is the easiest called by target since pankratops, but you know, it's way harder for your opponent to draw called by or ghost belle than a kaiju(since there's so many), get zeus on board or go for one accescode talker
If you ask me having them both still playable just proves the point of how broken Verte itself is. Even if Verte required Predaplants for it's summoning it would still be an issue because of how you could just splash in a small engine into anything.
Eh. I tested it. Not sold on it. The deck's main cards already cause a lot of discards to function. You REALLY can't afford another. Besides, Mirrorjade into Guardian Chimera into Mirrorjade coming back with Ad Libitum is more than good enough.
Sometimes a quick effect non targeting POP POP is better than an Omni negate especially if that negate gets chain blocked sometimes. And sometimes just blowing up their one Normal Summon before they can do anything else is good enough. (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.) -Also Pot of Greed from the GY is pretty good-
I am pretty sure your dragoon only does that when the DPE isn't played in a Hero deck.. cuz if so, your dragoon will have lower atk and lose to the DPE and off course no matter how many times you try to target him for anything, he will simply show up next turn... only cards like "Called by the grave" or so can do it but not Dragoon Vs DPE!
@@aligamal201012 Dragoon can negate DPE's effect to special summon from the gy, you negate that effect and it never comes back again. I don't know where you take it from that only cards like called by work on it.
For anyone coming here to see if Dragoon is still relevant Try Going 3 copies of chain Materials (Trap card) + 3 Flash fusions +3 Necro Fusions +3 Rapid Trigger with every draw and trap search card you can find Congrats, now you can make 3 Dragoons during your opponent DRAW phase :)
I’m a Dark Magician player and I run 3 REF. Nowadays it’s a must, the new support allows us to bait hand traps then hard play it or we can turbo anaconda. Extra copies get sent for draws with magicians souls or put back into deck with illusion of chaos. LOZA and co have some great builds.
@@Yunglex313 eye requires dm on field where REF sends materials from deck, which is just better. If eye was searchable it’d be a staple. Check out LOZA, he explains it quite well
I think it's really just the better fusion card and the materials that make DPE better. If we just look at the monster itself I think dragoon is definitely better.
IMO Verte is still the number 1 offender for why both of these cards are so insanely good. Verte is just nuts in almost every regard and having access to DPE or Dragoon at all times is the number 1 reason they are so format defining (at least more so in DPE's case). Just ban Verte and I don't personally believe DPE would be as common or as insane.
It really took me until the 6 minutes part to realize that Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer can sac itself to trigger its recursion ability AND that it can recur itself. Wow that's nasty.
Here’s the thing though, DPE is really easy to put or proc. Dragoon can’t be destroyed by anything but non-targeting banish, or kaijus, or non-targeting stat modulation. Plus, it gains attack, and can pop two monsters a turn if going second. Dragoon itself is better, but the engine around it is worse.
Couldn’t I theoretically summon Destiny HERO - Plasma and then Dragoon just sits there with its effects being unable to activate? If so then that doesn’t sound too scary. Plasma being a one sided Skill Drain and being able to steal an opponents monster to gain half its attack points is always funny to me. I’ve run into too many Blue Eyes players in Master Duel and they surrendered as soon as I stole their Blue Eyes Chaos Max Dragon away from them with Plasma.
@@theomnigamer9177 I mean, that’s fair, but one, there aren’t too many plasmas (like monsters with plasma’s effect) out there, and two, that puts DPE too 😂
Tyler Robertson True enough. The only reason why I brought up Plasma was because he is a Destiny HERO card which is one of the topics of discussion (DPE). The only thing preventing Plasma from being a true boss monster is some sort of native destruction or targeting protection (although I guess the support card D-Force does that). I just wish whenever people see Fusion Destiny they wouldn’t jump to conclusions and think DPE. It brings a tear to my eye since there are a decent amount of possibilities to go into and not just 1.
The ocg didn't have Zeus, TTT, Droplets and Darl Ruler or Accescode for a large part of Dragoons terror. So for awhile he was just an unlikable demon but the TCG had all that at it's release. So it never really became a problem here
It went and plagued the casual field even more so than it did already. Well I assume since I only play DB cause of the place I live in and God dammit I can't tell you the last casual duel I've had without dpe scythe. Legit I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't play that
DPE having more generic materials - not like there aren’t dozens of Hero’s to use as options - definitely helps DPE see more play. As is, I still use Dragoon in my Red Eyes Deck - don’t need a Verte, still think Verte’s gonna eat a ban at some point, and technically it’s only 1 Garnet in the deck instead of 3
@@stonalisa3729 I don’t play it mostly because I don’t actually have a copy of Verte, funnily enough. That and I’m honestly surprised Verte hasn’t eaten a ban yet, probably will the second I get a copy…
Yu-gi-oh used to be so fun, even pokemon too. But that was when they first came out and now there is too many gimmicks that go along with the games. What's the point of making cool cards if they end up banning them? I guess what I really miss is the dopamine rush of opening a new pack of cards and seeing cool new art work or high attack / defense numbers. Red Eyes Black Dragon was one of my favorite monsters along with Dark Magician - holy shit combining them into a damn DRAGOON you just activated my 90's nostalgia card!
I made a dark paladin deck because of Dragoon, It worked out really well. And then I started making it better and better by not relying on Dark Paladin so much.
@James Barton-Johns My issue is differrent lol. I pulled phoenix enforcer but refuse to pay the price to buy fusion destiny, esp considering it was like $1 or less at one point.
@James Barton-Johns Oh nice yeah it came down a lot! That only further raises my suspicions about a leds3 reprint being around the corner. I would not be surprised if people with insider info already know the set lists
All I will say about it is this thing that someone at my locals said: “If DPE or Fusion Destiny gets banned, no big deal, I’ll just go back to playing Dragoon.” I think that says it all to me.
I think the "Dragoon engine"-esk has been a staple of MR5 onwards. You make competent board then use something to cheat out one last boss monster, with only a few Garnets.
That’s what I mean. Anaconda is the main issue and I think we can all agree on that. Wish we can say the same for Dagda though, because let’s be honest. As long as Scythe exists, everyone is using Dagda or some other card that turbos out Scythe.
@@journeyrc6308 I honestly think it should have some text in it saying “this card can only be summoned if you have 3 or more Red-eyes monsters with different names in your GY OR 3 Magician monsters with different names in your GY” Then at least it would have stayed in red-eyes and dark magician decks rather than every deck running anaconda and red-eyes fusion
@@shis1988 Maxx c single handedly made me surrender more than I could count tho :( Cuz I mainly don't go too hard on combo so I can't deck out my opponent...
Random and unrelated to the video but I really love your recent direction with your thumbnails. Different from your old style but I definitely love it! 😎👍🏽
There's so many ways to get over it. It just didn't feel very powerful. Plus the bricks to bring it out do nothing. DPE is so much easier and more flexible
Thinking about the person I duelled in Master Duel that for some reason didn't destroy my Invoked Caliga with their DPE's card effect, instead destroying something else, and then wondered why they couldn't activate DPE's revival effect.
i dont usually comment on your videos. but this was one of the better discussion topics you've released in a long time. It was well reasoned, well explained and was genuinely interesting to hear about. I would personally much rather see more topics like this than videos discussing why people dont use a legacy card anymore. Legacy cards are always going to have that nostalgia factor involved and some are still very good obviously. but comparing two incredibly potent but equally divisive cards like these lends to a much more interesting discussion. good work!
You should do a video on all the current omni negates even if some arent played or banned, I feel like Dragoon would still be top of list behind just Baronne
Dragoon is one of my favourite cards because it was super fair and balanced in the tcg. New cards are often either broken Zeus, DPE or garbage but Dragoon was competitive but nothing too scary. I wish there are more cards like that. And it's brilliant how it was one restriction away from being broken. If only it fusion wasn't terrible, materials weren't terrible or you didn't have to end the turn with it (imagine buster lock on Dragoon or Dragoon to block Nibiru) it would be insane. I would argue that even discard is a bit too much, but I guess slapping extra thing to be sure was a good move.
No please I love him in my hero deck He just needs an errata that makes him need an elemental hero and a destiny hero to fusion summon him And it will go with the theme since he was originally an elemental hero
Dragoon was always not as good as it seemed. It was everywhere in the OCG - But almost never made it to the top tables. In the TCG it saw experimentation in a lot of decks, and many of them topped, but it was just a back-up plan for combo decks you added to God boards so you could play through 1 more hand trap. It's only other role, and it fulfills this to this day, is as an easy Boss in Stun and Control decks, mostly Guru, but really of all kinds. But in a DPE world the way to outplay handtraps is DPE and Brave.
Right now I don't have dragoon or P E but if I had a choice I would play dragoon because I like his effect a lot better plus he looks a lot better in my albaz invoked deck.😈
While the cards themselves are very different, I think the question of which one is better comes down to the Fusion spells. The difference between a garnet and a combo piece is huge. So DPE is probably the overall better card.
4:50 Dashers summon is anything but sacky. If you get your board broken and are out of cards, you draw, lets say, a lvl6 that cannot SS itself, dasher gets it on the board AND simultaneously unbricks your hand for Celestial to activate.
I don't play modern formats so I've got no opinions on the two engines, but wanted to say the background music really improves your videos and is a nice touch. Also as someone who is stuck in 2010-2011 with their Yu-Gi-Oh, both of these cards just sound busted as hell lmao
I had no idea that there's a Fusion of Dark Magician and Red Eyes Black Dragon, and i'm very upset that it's banned in Master Duel because of its OP Effects. It would be awesome to play a Fusion Card of both Yugi and Joey!
It's not the OP effects per say but more of its splashability. Requiring almost every deck to play the same cards to be viable is pretty unhealthy for the game which is pretty much what the tcg us going through right now. But if verte ever gets banned in master duel then dragoon is probably coming back.
@@gremlinonion1323 I agree, it will be allright if you see dragoon in dark magician and/or red eyes deck, because it what it is, their boss monster. But, seeing that in every single deck, just using 2 monster on the field, it's 😑.
Man, must be nice to afford either of those cards :P I think it's down to wether you want that utility or you want a boss monster. Dragoon can get big, pop cards and swing for game, whereas DPE isn't really in that position.
Atm I'm running two REF and Two Dragoon, but I've almost got my DPE Engine complete as well. I play a Dragoon Turbo DM Deck, I'm going to be including DPE in it, and Branded when I get the rest of the Cards I need.
If you play competitive Pokemon, it's kind of similar to Skarmory vs Corviknight. Skarmory has a strong defense stat and Corviknight looks weaker in terms of overall stats. However, Corviknight is actually more versatile than Skarmory because of its stats. You could invest EVs in Skarmory's other stats, it is worth more if you invest in its defense rather than its other stats. Corviknight, however, is bulkier in terms of HP, defense, and special defense, so you can invest EVs into one of those 3 stats or its attack stat because its attack is slightly higher by several points. You can run the same moveset with both Skarmory and Corviknight, but ultimately, Corviknight will shine at the top.
I know this is off topic, but is it me, or should there have been a sort of synchro structure deck to go with the Synchro festival like how they did Ciphers for Xyz festival? Like yea they did it when the card pack released, but I think we are still missing a structure deck option too.
Going second, Dragoon is one of the most insane Verte or turn ending summons u can do with how much damage it can do. Dragoon is more power. DHero is more Consistency.
This is correct when thinking the splash-able power comparison. But for a dedicated deck for Dragoon, i think it still a stronger card. i.e. Other than using the red eyes fusion, i could opt to use Timaeus to summon him. It wouldn't lock my special summon. Yes the cost for the negation is quite steep, but one thing you didn't cover is how hard to remove the Dragoon compared to DPE. Not only it is a tower, but also an ever increasing Atk one as well. Means, it will gain advantage when battle. DPE has 2500 where it is respectable enough, it is not as high as let's say 1x negation Dragoon with 4K attack which can easily beat over most boss monsters.
A bunch of cards came into existence to counter this card in the OCG, then it was released here with those cards. Dragoon never got to enjoy the liberty it had in the OCG in its inception, which is hilarious. Still a good card, it just can't dance around cards like DPE does.
IMO, Dragoon's disappearance is fairly easy to explain - DPE and Fusion Destiny is a far better use of Verte than Dragoon and Red Eyes Fusion, and Dragoon was just meh at best. The only reason it saw any play at all was because it was the best card to summon off of Verte before DPE came around. Even then, Dragoon still had plenty of disadvantages - hard drawing into Red Eyes Fusion, having to play two bricky Garnets (at least Dasher and Celestial do something in the graveyard, unlike Red Eyes and DM), and you have to discard cards to activate its good effect. In a pre-DPE world, Dragoon is fairly good. Nowadays though, it's not great.
Opening Phoenix enforcer fusion spell: if you get nibirued or stopped in your combo you still get a boss monster and a pot of greed next turn, if you don't get stopped, you win. Opening Dragoon fusion spell: either don't combo and pass with a -1 omni (wich will get you laughed at in 2022, the protection doesn't really matter that much, it's more of an annoyance than anything else) or lose to nibiru/any turn ending hand traps if you play the game.
I use this in Branded Despia. Having a negate that can’t be targeted or destroyed by card effects that gains 1k for every negate for mid-late game, since by then their generic outs to cards like this have been burned out. Not only that, but it can be extremely annoying to having to deal with Dragoon constantly being resummoned off of Theatre and/or Ad Lib. It basically becomes impossible to stop the recycle after a couple of times. Yeah, I could run something else, but every time I’ve summoned Dragoon in a game, I usually win that game, and I summon him quite often during the grind game
So I play a Red-Eyes deck and I am very proud of it my only downside is I don't have anaconda or Dragoon unfortunately as I am broke af. Hopefully I pull Dragoon in the 2022 tin and I'll hopefully get El Dorado soon so I will hopefully pull anaconda there.
@@mattyorshin Yeah Verte is about $10 but I'm also a minor with no job sooo $10 is a lot for one card for me atm. But yeah Dragoon being around $100 base price (around $500 usd for the BROL Prismatic rare) is absolutely insane hopefully it goes down in price from the reprint in the 2022 tin
I played anaconda for a while in OCG going for Red Eyes Slash for Negation and Meteor Dragon for big hits not having Dragoon has been a struggle to play with, I eventually moved the red-eyes engine over to Dragon Link. What I mean to say is, it's kind of obvious that playing without the key card makes the fusion variant Red-Eyes decks kind of mediocre vs a high link Tempo Deck. So I can imagine even though I've not played DPE reading it's effect and hearing the value as you've explained means I can easily see why it's overshadowing the VERY Strong but in a way simplere Omni Negate Boss Monster
Dpe in general is a better choice than dragoon but we have max c in master duel and like we know that card can make you drow a lot if you're opponent did except the challenge but with dragoon there that will not make you anything at all
I like using dragoon as a dark magician player. But I don't think it's broken. Strong yes, but not broken. The package synergizes with the deck as a free foolish burial to dark magician turning on all the spells and traps associated with it.
DPE is only broken because of the scythe lock /hero added support. Dragoon only has verte. If it had a separate support Dragoon would still be better. As a singular card dragoon is still better than DPE.
Well depends. Dragoon is best to pop a board and swing for game. DPE is a constant annoyance that you can only get rid of by banishing really. So while i agree that dragoon is the stronger monster, DPE is more flexible in its usage and does not need your opponent to have a board to reach its max potential.
@@619ver1 but DPE NEEDS support to reach it's max potential. Unfortunately Dragoon has no real support. If anything the card's needed for it only bring down it's value. Bad fusion card, worse fusion material. No side support. It's a no brainer DPE is the better choice because it's engine is miles better. Dragoon has no engine to work with unfortunately. Which is funny because Dragoon is the one banned over DPE lol.
@@crowing3886 but that was said in the video and many people were already saying it when dpe came out, dragoon is better in a vacuum, as an individual card But the entire dpe engine and "synergies" it has with a lot of decks are better overall
@@crowing3886 Well only in the OCG dragoon is banned. Also to be theoreitcal if you do not care about the burn any dragontype for it, which is why many speculate that branded fusion will push dragoon a bit again.
Based on the most recent YCS event, where DPE saw 58% representation in top 32 and Goon saw 0, it's safe to say that even without Scythe lock, DPE would still be much preferred over Goon. 9 of the 10 Adventurer Prank deck played DPE, and only 1 of them played Scythe/Dagda. The 1 topping Striker DPE deck didn't play Scythe, and all 3 BASED piles settled on cutting Scythe entirely. Invoked and Despia DPE didn't play Scythe either. The only prominent Scythe DPE decks that topped were 3 Cyberse Eldlich. And even if Scythe gets banned, they would either pivot to Trap Eldlich, or use Lancea instead, not Goon, especially with Branded Fusion just releasing.
based take actually, this person is correct if you have maxx c legal, the best strategy is to hard draw red eyes fusion to summon dragoon if your opponent pops maxx c, it puts a 3k boss monster thats hard to out while making maxx c only card neutral
hell, this exact reason of turning maxx c into upstart and still putting a hard to out boss is why dragoon is banned in ocg its a strong maxx c counter
@@chanceneck8072 actually no, diamond dude is different as it just activates the spell, it doesn't copy anything So in this case diamond dude would still put you under the restriction of red eyes fusion
The variety of ingredients are better on Phoenix Enforcer, much better than two vanilla monsters. Then the Fusion Destiny mixer spell is able to be done after the other cooking summons, not so with the other fusion mixer. Finally the cake monster is able to dodge and pop on its own without needing anymore card investment.
I like Dark Dragoon more as on the turn you summon it, in mid game for example or even going 2nd you put a 2 monster removal, burn for that, big thicc protection AND an omni negate to ensure you get that pop 2 burn effect go through while making sure you get the OTK in battle phase. DPE is more for the grind game and i dont consider a grind game to be fun as it can easily turn into stalemate.
I wish I could run DPE in Adamancipators. I just pulled one in a Burst of Destiny display box. I'll be adding it into another deck. Adamancipators, even as a rogue deck if that, is too much fun. I can't give it up lol
Honestly I just want to ask how the Albaz deck can get Dragoon out now. Haven't read the new cards yet but I've always loved using Albaz so wanted to make a deck including Dragoon.
You are jusing the light healed hex and The fallen of Albaz for summoning Albion anf the you can banish both again to make Dragoon,because the hex becomes dark magician.You cant destroy a lonster but it is still a good monster
Red eyes dark dragoons design as a monster isn’t any more crazy than a Zeus or a accesscode talker or even a mirror jade, it doesn’t seem to help any major decks really but does help decks like cyber dragons
I need Dragoon in my Dark Magician deck or my Red Eyes deck. I'm tired of Herald of Bullsh*t and all it's omni negates. Yes Yes, I know there are ways to murder it, kaiju and what not, but I'm a firm believer of keeping my deck with a theme.
I think the hate for Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon mostly sits at the low end of competitive Yu-Gi-Oh. If you compare it to the decks that we're out at the time people were playing it, it's a win more card in addition to what meta at the time could do which could also cost some very needed hand advantage. If you splash it into a more Rogue strategy, it gives lower tiered decks an option to compete with tier 1 decks, and they may not be as worried about hand advantage for whatever reason, or are willing to sacrifice it for the negate.
Funny enuff dragon is very nice on guro, and drawing the fusion card is very nice as well because When you guro you usualy just set on first turn so The restricion is fine.
dpe all the way tho my newest deck is a invoked eldlich deck with dpe and a smallish branded fusion engine that can make dragon thanks to a fusion substitute (- the pop and burn effect tho) also can make other fusion like blue-eyes tyrant dragon
I have a theory that the reason this was a controversial Card wasn't because it was so powerful... it was because people were upset Dark Magician players finally had something to push back with.
@@Q67-m7z I main Dark Magician and have since the GOAT era. Yes I've read it. I don't see why it's any worse than Baronne De Fleur or Blue-Eyes Alternative Ultimate Dragon
@@GaelicMongrel2023 its a normal monster that requiers *2 tributes* and it *only has 2500 atk* unless your playing deck centered around dm its just a worst blue eyes. Baronne has an actual effect wich negates and its a pop with better stats *and* you dont have to play it in maindeck *AND* it doeant take your ns. Dm as a card was always bad, even in early years it was just worst summon skull and couldnt compete with power of djin, let alone goat when monsters with actual effects existed.
@@Q67-m7z You seem to have misunderstood me. I was saying that I don't see why the *Dragoon* is any worse than those two, not Dark Magician. I'm aware of all that. This is my point: People were upset that it finally made the Dark Magician archetype viable.
honestly i think the main difference u didn't mention was that DPE wins by creating a simplified gamestate where you are ahead, while dragoon just kills the opponent straight out. the main weakness also not said is if your dragoon gets negated by droplet it can be removed for free by anything but for DPE you have to use non destructive removal or he just comes back
Between DPE overshadowing it and Dragoon being banned in Master Duel, it's kinda crazy how quickly it left the public conscious despite how it was heralded as the bringer of the end times when it came out in the TCG.
Well to be frank, i am not a fan of removing one broken card with an even more broken card with a better engine.
Yet it’s price has almost doubled here in the UK 😂
It only got as much hype as it did based on how dominant it was in the slower control-centric OCG format. There was no chance it was ever gonna get banned here based on people summoning it from Red Eyes Fusion, Verte Anaconda was the main problem card.
@@GIR177 Also OCG didn't get Zeus until 3 formats later, so the best out for it was Dingirsu (hence Orcust being best deck for those formats). TCG got Zeus almost immediately after Dragoon and therefore only the casual/rogue scene (decks which can't make Zeus as easily) really suffered for it.
Dragoon isn’t banned in Master Duel btw. It’s just not in the game
The easiest way to explain why Dragoon gets overshadowed by DPE is seeing how people reacting at opening with a Red-Eyes Fusion vs opening with a Fusion Destiny (in combo decks at least)
Well short story from what i could tell is a) There are easier omni negates out there with adventure then dragoon and b) DPE having the better engine as it basically is free link fodder and draw 2
@@619ver1 also don't forget the whole engine is more toolboxy with Scythe shenanigans and stuff
@Vlad destroyer phoenix enforcer
Also, warriors are the best type in the game. On top of that, every warrior deck has at least one Destiny Hero in Malicious.
@Vlad Dark pheonix enforcer
1) Dragoon is an S tier monster with an F tier package while dpe is an A tier monster with A tier package (stolen). There are lots of good destiny hero monsters with gy effects (people are even testing fusion destiny with dangerous in despia)
2) OCG did not have the common staple outs (droplets, triple tac, even Zeus one may argue) that we had when we got him.
3) the discard to negate hurts. Imagine if dpe destroyed a card in your hand instead of field.
4) Better to summon a monster that will help you survive but also give you follow-up in case you get hit by a double handtrap play
Overall, card can win games. It is insane going second if you manage to get to verte (can ever use charmer to steal a verte) but playing three awful cards isn't worth it. Also not worth summoning a negate that also loses to droplet (can negate rite though) while you can play stuff that helps you against board breakers.
In the OCG Dragun was a plan b in case the opponent has Maxx "C", some control decks also played 3 copies of Red-Eyes Fusion if they didn't want to summon that much. PK was a dominant deck there because it could stop their combo at any moment and still end on some Fog Blades. Flowanderize was predicted to break the OCG because it didn't special summon. It's actually quite amusing to watch how one little bug can dictate the entire format.
Yeah, its what i said when people hyper Flundereeze here. DO not get me wrong, i like the deck and play it rl cause its fun but the most contributing factor for the deck to be good in the OCG where it having access to Shifter/d.Fissure which killed PK and being immune to MAX . Here its at best tier2/rouge i would say
When one card dominates a format so much, maybe it should get banned. Right, Konami?
@@fukou_da "6 months of firewall dragon without an errata"
PK saw competitive success in the last format only. It got shafted after the limit of torn scale. Before their success in the previous ban list format, it was only ok at best. You want more proof? Rhongo is still legal over there. You'd think more people would abuse this card playing decks that can turbo this dude out (if you say six sam you are coping), but no people just didn't try it.
@@shen.daniel @S.D. I played PK in Master Duel for a while now, got rid of Rhongo after a couple of days. It's only good when going first uninterrupted, which is an extremely rare occasion there. I'd rather have a third Break Sword and a 4th material for Zeus when facing a full Drytron board. XD
I feel like Dragoon has largely been relegated in tcg to the verte target for rogue decks that can't capitalise on the DPE engine. For example, you play it in Appliancer because you value the negation and the ability to actually close a game out more because well, your appliancer monsters sure as shit aren't going to kill your opponent lmao
and the thing is, DPE is only really better because of the engines it enables, mostly owning up to the fact that being able to pop your own cards should like have a big blaring warning flag that it's going to break other cards to shit.
@@christheenbyVT Well DPE is better because thanks to Brave engine and Scythe, its part of a machinery. Dragoon is a lot like borrelsword dragon. Its your end swing. Thing is these days, you rather not save up for a big push against and established board but simply not allow your opponent to play. MBT did put it very nicely "The current Meta is different Tastes of your opponent does not get to play the game."
Ok im sorry but I am literally in love with this comment. Breakerbuncle more like breakeredeyesdarkdragoon.
It's only a matter of time before they ban Anaconda
either that or as an alternate finisher for the Branded Fusion chain.
When I first started playing again in late 2020 I was like "wow Dragoon is busted this is gonna be a staple until it's banned", and even when DPE was announced I don't think I appreciated its constant self-recurrance -- but even besides that, the fusion destiny package is just so much easier to work with than the red eyes fusion package that even if you think DPE is a weaker card, I think the splashability of the DPE engine easily makes it the more flexible card.
Yeah, playing three bricks is never fun lol
This was my exact thoughts. I was convinced DPE was just a worse card but after testing the package disparity makes DPE much better
It will eventually banned if destiny fusion stay in play
That us the thing with konami, they shit chat red eyes, then gives the same effect but better with other decks, hell tell thus day there is not a good support for red eyes that is "red eyes" but dm and blue eyes getting supports after supports, and HEROs all in all works with each other
Yet red eyes is able to set fear in anyone even tho it is a 5 vs 10 od archtype power, and red eyes wins alot of them
The biggest advantage dragoon has over dpe is the sick card art.
Genuienly looks super cool even though he's just a harder to destroy mechaba
Harder is understatement
Dragoon has definitely been over-shadowed by DPE (which as a HERO fan makes me a bit happy that HEROES are being competitive in any way), but that doesnt nor shouldnt mean that Dragoon is a lesser card than DPE. DPE has great ability to dodge and pop things and bring himself back, while Dragoon is just a standard Omni-negate boss monster (bc we NEVER have enough of those /sarcasm). But what makes DPE so good is not just its ability to resurrect itself, but the materials that every non-HERO meta deck uses are Celestial and Dasher. Dasher can give you a free Special Summon, and Celestial can banish himself and Dasher to give you a Draw 2. DPE definitely gives the player a lot more flexibilty that just siting omni-negate monster that can eventually be taken out (or Kaiju'd) and you most likely will never get it back.
I disagree, I think both are good boss monsters for their archetype, it's just everyone fixates on red eyes fusion from deck when you could use any dragon with an effect instead of bricking on a red eyes. Eye of Timeus still applies (Albeit he can't do the two or one damage deal with the Eye but still negate which is what you'd want most anyway.) Secrets of Dark Magic, Fusion from the GY, ETC. He's just nerfed more because of the two things to cheese him out which thankfully were banned. Also yeah Kaiju can work but tbh magician deck is all about just swarming so it's easy to get another lol. A tier anyway, I think Perdaplant was the clear S though on support overall and why it was just ridiculously easy
For those wondering why Dragoon was much more powerful in the OCG, they have Maxx C legal, so Dragoon pass was a good board to end on if you were under Maxx C, a hard to kill omni negate while only drawing your opponent 1 card if you have REF in hand (3 if you go down the verte line, assuming 1 material is your normal summon and hence not counted towards Maxx C, otherwise it'd be 4). Would DPE have competed with that? Honestly I'm not sure, a big part of it was that if they were under Maxx C they could pass with a omni negate which was hard to deal with, but DPE removes itself (usually) from the field and has a lot more cards which out it, in the context of why the OCG used Dragoon, DPE doesn't really fill what they were looking for (obviously DPE IS really good in the OCG rn, I just mean how it would compete if Dragoon was legal.) Although it is possible I'm missing something and being stupid.
DPE of course competed with that, if not then why they banned Fusion Destiny before coming back to 1 after Verte got banned?
Reason:
1. If Dragoon, an S tier boss monster with F tier package is a success in OCG, DPE (A tier Boss with A tier package) will also see a success.
2. You skipped the part where Fusion Destiny is far more cracked than REF, having restriction AFTER fusion has been conducted.
3. By nature, DPE's grind power itself is a favorable trait in OCG.
@@MVAS-mp9oo I think you forgot the part where Dragoon got banned in the OCG before DPE was legal so they never got to compete.
Also your points have no relation to anything I said what so ever, I said DPE doesn't compete with Dragoon because it doesn't do what Dragoon was needed for in the OCG, being a good end boss under Maxx C while giving them as little cards as possible, that doesn't mean DPE wouldn't be a good card, it just means it doesn't compete with Dragoon, it has OTHER benefits.
@@ragedrock5945 I thought you are comparing Dragoon and DPE as engine. Maybe i kinda misread your comment.
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon is the definitive example of a "There won't be a next turn." Monster.
Well Kaiju & Super poly exist
FINAL TURN!!!
He aint protected by Battle, shuffling Back in the extra Deck, moving him to the Graveyard, bouncing Back to the Hand.
Just cant use a target effect for that. There are many Outs against that thing Just need to Bypass the negate
@@danielijust8776 all of those outs have to not get negated, only real outs are kaijus, drnm, droplet, sp etc... Still any of dragoon outs out dpe too so....
Goukis powerlord ogre giant ogre Master ogre lol
Long story short, Dragoon is still busted but drident every turn + pot of greed is better.
Yugioh players love drawing cards. They will do anything to get those draws.
Better than drident it doesn't target affects face down too and also the draw 2 is plus 2 not 1 , they are even better than that
as someone who only play MD what do DPE do to allow draw 2 cards?
@@fnaz96 Usually you'll send "Destiny HERO - Celestial" to the grave to make DPE and by it's effect on GY, you can banish it and draw 2 cards. So it's not DPE who allows the draw but you use to make it.
@@fnaz96 The DHero Celestial you send to the GY as one of it's materials lets you draw 2 cards.
There's one thing as well : dragoon is untargetable and indestructible by card effects, phoenix enforcer floats and can leave the field at any time to come back later, meaning he kinda has the same if not as strong level of protection, since he will not be on the field, the difference between your opponent cracking your board with dragoon and cracking a board with phoenix enforcer is much different
I actually think DPE has better protection, bc it can avoid non-targeting removal (Zeus, Shuraig, etc.)
Dpe can be called by the grave yes? (MD player)
@@MsDestroyer900 Called By is at 1 in the TCG, which is where they’re both legal. But yes, DPE loses to Called By, D.D Crow, and Ghost Belle. It’s still better protection than Dragoon though, as none of those cards are in the extra deck, meaning there’s a chance you don’t even see them during the match.
@@MsDestroyer900 he is the easiest called by target since pankratops, but you know, it's way harder for your opponent to draw called by or ghost belle than a kaiju(since there's so many), get zeus on board or go for one accescode talker
@@UnuUO Dharc is in the extra deck and absolutely hilarious when he steals DPE
If you ask me having them both still playable just proves the point of how broken Verte itself is. Even if Verte required Predaplants for it's summoning it would still be an issue because of how you could just splash in a small engine into anything.
It flat-out sucks that you can use DPE outside of HERO decks, because HERO decks already suck and somehow they still risk getting nerfed.
Same thing with dragoon
THIS
Yes, thats really true. And to make it better, verte is only could use predaplant cards, not all fusion card
Yugioh beta males will probably whine for it to get banned until Konami bends the kneee unfortunately
dragoon is looking really nice in albaz, simply because you dont have to run any of the bricks
Yea but No bomb effect
Eh. I tested it. Not sold on it. The deck's main cards already cause a lot of discards to function. You REALLY can't afford another. Besides, Mirrorjade into Guardian Chimera into Mirrorjade coming back with Ad Libitum is more than good enough.
The lubel + mirrorjade + chimera combo is better. The dragoon combo is more for the grind game if it comes to that.
My opponent plays dark magician and he always played dragoon so I always play dark ruler no more and super poly and I play Shaddoll
Sometimes a quick effect non targeting POP POP is better than an Omni negate especially if that negate gets chain blocked sometimes. And sometimes just blowing up their one Normal Summon before they can do anything else is good enough. (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.)
-Also Pot of Greed from the GY is pretty good-
So if you want to risk it and win quick go with Dragoon. If you want to go for consistency and control, Enforcer is your right choice.
Not even. If you want generic Dragoon you run Anaconda because REF gives you Dragoon and only him. DPE is part of the combo.
@@shis1988 u do know that's not the knt way to summon him right
Still playing it in my Branded Despia deck
Also at tournaments my dragoon easily outs DPE in other Branded decks so gonna stick with it.
Literally says it in the video
bruh 💀
I use it in a Summoned Skull deck lol.
I am pretty sure your dragoon only does that when the DPE isn't played in a Hero deck.. cuz if so, your dragoon will have lower atk and lose to the DPE and off course no matter how many times you try to target him for anything, he will simply show up next turn... only cards like "Called by the grave" or so can do it but not Dragoon Vs DPE!
@@aligamal201012 Dragoon can negate DPE's effect to special summon from the gy, you negate that effect and it never comes back again. I don't know where you take it from that only cards like called by work on it.
For anyone coming here to see if Dragoon is still relevant
Try Going 3 copies of chain Materials (Trap card) + 3 Flash fusions +3 Necro Fusions +3 Rapid Trigger with every draw and trap search card you can find
Congrats, now you can make 3 Dragoons during your opponent DRAW phase :)
I’m a Dark Magician player and I run 3 REF. Nowadays it’s a must, the new support allows us to bait hand traps then hard play it or we can turbo anaconda. Extra copies get sent for draws with magicians souls or put back into deck with illusion of chaos. LOZA and co have some great builds.
Why the hell would you run Red-Eyes fusion when you have Eye of Timaeus and no need for the REBD? Because of the Verte Anaconda?
@@Yunglex313 eye requires dm on field where REF sends materials from deck, which is just better. If eye was searchable it’d be a staple. Check out LOZA, he explains it quite well
@@Yunglex313 Because you can summon directly from the deck with fusion? EoT has been power crept and all you need now is the effect version of Timaeus
I think it's really just the better fusion card and the materials that make DPE better. If we just look at the monster itself I think dragoon is definitely better.
IMO Verte is still the number 1 offender for why both of these cards are so insanely good. Verte is just nuts in almost every regard and having access to DPE or Dragoon at all times is the number 1 reason they are so format defining (at least more so in DPE's case).
Just ban Verte and I don't personally believe DPE would be as common or as insane.
Even without Verte, DPE would have seen massive play, and Dragoon didnt see massive play even with Verte
@@SatanicWren no...? I mean, otherwise how can you summon DPE consistently?
@@bellant7580 You just use Fusion Destiny, its really not uncommon to see Dpe be summoned without Anaconda
@@SatanicWren So you just have to draw an unsearchable 2 of. Understood, thank you man
@@bellant7580 Well it would have been a 3 of on release, but also, the card got put to 2 for a reason…
a total Chad, like me, just use Anaconda occasionally to send to the gy Magicalized Fusion and summon Quintet Magician
It's unfortunate the beta males whined for Anaconda to get banned until it did because they got completely annihilated by it lmao
It really took me until the 6 minutes part to realize that Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer can sac itself to trigger its recursion ability AND that it can recur itself. Wow that's nasty.
Here’s the thing though, DPE is really easy to put or proc. Dragoon can’t be destroyed by anything but non-targeting banish, or kaijus, or non-targeting stat modulation. Plus, it gains attack, and can pop two monsters a turn if going second. Dragoon itself is better, but the engine around it is worse.
Thank you finally someone understands
Couldn’t I theoretically summon Destiny HERO - Plasma and then Dragoon just sits there with its effects being unable to activate? If so then that doesn’t sound too scary. Plasma being a one sided Skill Drain and being able to steal an opponents monster to gain half its attack points is always funny to me. I’ve run into too many Blue Eyes players in Master Duel and they surrendered as soon as I stole their Blue Eyes Chaos Max Dragon away from them with Plasma.
@@theomnigamer9177 I mean, that’s fair, but one, there aren’t too many plasmas (like monsters with plasma’s effect) out there, and two, that puts DPE too 😂
Tyler Robertson True enough. The only reason why I brought up Plasma was because he is a Destiny HERO card which is one of the topics of discussion (DPE). The only thing preventing Plasma from being a true boss monster is some sort of native destruction or targeting protection (although I guess the support card D-Force does that).
I just wish whenever people see Fusion Destiny they wouldn’t jump to conclusions and think DPE. It brings a tear to my eye since there are a decent amount of possibilities to go into and not just 1.
The ocg didn't have Zeus, TTT, Droplets and Darl Ruler or Accescode for a large part of Dragoons terror. So for awhile he was just an unlikable demon but the TCG had all that at it's release.
So it never really became a problem here
Accesscode destroys Ice Dragon's Prison is a better card to out him.
@@Jigokukitsune it can also attack over it if you make it with a link 2.
It went and plagued the casual field even more so than it did already. Well I assume since I only play DB cause of the place I live in and God dammit I can't tell you the last casual duel I've had without dpe scythe. Legit I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't play that
Nope same here. Well playing scythe in my unleashed deck cause it works nice but still >_>
What is DB??
That’s why I play brain dead Gren Maju stun at locals. I can’t summon out of my extra deck? Haha, Gren Maju go brrrrrr
Dueling Book
DPE having more generic materials - not like there aren’t dozens of Hero’s to use as options - definitely helps DPE see more play.
As is, I still use Dragoon in my Red Eyes Deck - don’t need a Verte, still think Verte’s gonna eat a ban at some point, and technically it’s only 1 Garnet in the deck instead of 3
Specifically, DPE's package is far more powerful than Dragoon's package.
There’s no reason to not play Verte. It’s too good
@@stonalisa3729 I don’t play it mostly because I don’t actually have a copy of Verte, funnily enough.
That and I’m honestly surprised Verte hasn’t eaten a ban yet, probably will the second I get a copy…
@@shanehaney6040 Would you happen to have a Deck list to share? I want to build a Red-Eyes deck and I would like some examples.
Yu-gi-oh used to be so fun, even pokemon too. But that was when they first came out and now there is too many gimmicks that go along with the games.
What's the point of making cool cards if they end up banning them?
I guess what I really miss is the dopamine rush of opening a new pack of cards and seeing cool new art work or high attack / defense numbers. Red Eyes Black Dragon was one of my favorite monsters along with Dark Magician - holy shit combining them into a damn DRAGOON you just activated my 90's nostalgia card!
Option C, can't afford to buy them lol. But would take Destiny HERO overall since I made a Destiny Hero deck a while back so wouldn't be too costly
I made a dark paladin deck because of Dragoon, It worked out really well. And then I started making it better and better by not relying on Dark Paladin so much.
@James Barton-Johns My issue is differrent lol. I pulled phoenix enforcer but refuse to
pay the price to buy fusion destiny, esp considering it was like $1 or less at one point.
@James Barton-Johns Oh nice yeah it came down a lot! That only further raises my suspicions about a leds3 reprint being around the corner. I would not be surprised if people with insider info already know the set lists
All I will say about it is this thing that someone at my locals said:
“If DPE or Fusion Destiny gets banned, no big deal, I’ll just go back to playing Dragoon.”
I think that says it all to me.
They can do that but it wont be nowhere near as good
I think the "Dragoon engine"-esk has been a staple of MR5 onwards. You make competent board then use something to cheat out one last boss monster, with only a few Garnets.
What happens when Anaconda is banned? Cause that is unavoidable at this point.
Almost like the snake is the issue all along.
That’s what I mean. Anaconda is the main issue and I think we can all agree on that. Wish we can say the same for Dagda though, because let’s be honest. As long as Scythe exists, everyone is using Dagda or some other card that turbos out Scythe.
Now that Verte Anaconda is banned, Dark Dragoon just isn’t the terror it once was.
I’m a red-eyes player but unfortunately have never been able to get dragoon because it’s too expensive
Gotta wait for the reprint
Yeah I hope I can get it from the tin and start experimenting with it in my red eyes deck
@@journeyrc6308 just better hope it's not short printed in the tin.
@@YOFACE9999 yeah that would suck
@@journeyrc6308 I honestly think it should have some text in it saying “this card can only be summoned if you have 3 or more Red-eyes monsters with different names in your GY OR 3 Magician monsters with different names in your GY”
Then at least it would have stayed in red-eyes and dark magician decks rather than every deck running anaconda and red-eyes fusion
If there was ever a time where I was happy that Master Duel hasn't caught up with the physical card game, it would be after watching this.
Master Duel still has the "lol no play game" meta, but it's overall more interesting than TCG
@@shis1988 Maxx c single handedly made me surrender more than I could count tho :(
Cuz I mainly don't go too hard on combo so I can't deck out my opponent...
@@dhanyl2725 ngl its why i prefer going second, and having 2 copies of called in my deck
I'm going to see if I can mix it up with both Red eyes Fusion and the classic Polymerization in a hybrid deck of Dragons and Spellcasters.
Random and unrelated to the video but I really love your recent direction with your thumbnails. Different from your old style but I definitely love it! 😎👍🏽
When Konami taps onto red eyes potential this happens, now I want to see a red eyes blue eyes fusion
There's so many ways to get over it. It just didn't feel very powerful. Plus the bricks to bring it out do nothing. DPE is so much easier and more flexible
So u go by based on that u don't know how to play it
@@sinister6279 I can bring out 3 in one turn in a dm deck bro. I know how to play it.
Thinking about the person I duelled in Master Duel that for some reason didn't destroy my Invoked Caliga with their DPE's card effect, instead destroying something else, and then wondered why they couldn't activate DPE's revival effect.
i dont usually comment on your videos. but this was one of the better discussion topics you've released in a long time. It was well reasoned, well explained and was genuinely interesting to hear about. I would personally much rather see more topics like this than videos discussing why people dont use a legacy card anymore. Legacy cards are always going to have that nostalgia factor involved and some are still very good obviously. but comparing two incredibly potent but equally divisive cards like these lends to a much more interesting discussion. good work!
You should do a video on all the current omni negates even if some arent played or banned, I feel like Dragoon would still be top of list behind just Baronne
Dragoon is one of my favourite cards because it was super fair and balanced in the tcg. New cards are often either broken Zeus, DPE or garbage but Dragoon was competitive but nothing too scary. I wish there are more cards like that.
And it's brilliant how it was one restriction away from being broken. If only it fusion wasn't terrible, materials weren't terrible or you didn't have to end the turn with it (imagine buster lock on Dragoon or Dragoon to block Nibiru) it would be insane. I would argue that even discard is a bit too much, but I guess slapping extra thing to be sure was a good move.
The fact that dragoon can be considered balance speaks more about the game than the card
I’ll tell you what happened. DPE happened. Once it’s banned people will go right back into slapping Dragoon into everything
I think Verte will die before either of these do
No please I love him in my hero deck
He just needs an errata that makes him need an elemental hero and a destiny hero to fusion summon him
And it will go with the theme since he was originally an elemental hero
But that's not what was happening before DPE. Dragoon engine just isn't worth it in competitive and has seen very little success.
Dragoon was always not as good as it seemed. It was everywhere in the OCG - But almost never made it to the top tables. In the TCG it saw experimentation in a lot of decks, and many of them topped, but it was just a back-up plan for combo decks you added to God boards so you could play through 1 more hand trap. It's only other role, and it fulfills this to this day, is as an easy Boss in Stun and Control decks, mostly Guru, but really of all kinds. But in a DPE world the way to outplay handtraps is DPE and Brave.
He’s still good imo and something to not underestimate but yeah it’s kinda crazy to see this happen In tcg
Right now I don't have dragoon or P E but if I had a choice I would play dragoon because I like his effect a lot better plus he looks a lot better in my albaz invoked deck.😈
In albaz he's busted
@@fooltool true
"Are you playing DPE or Dragoon?"
No! I don't feel like selling my organs for a Yu-Gi-Oh! card.
Wow, why the heck is dragoon at over 100$ again?
Because branded. And hey man that's you! Plenty of us don't have to sell our organs and still collect shiny cardboard :P
For my Dragoon, I'm using him in my dark magician deck utilizing Eye of Timeus
Red Eyes got the incredible power it wanted, but at what cost? It lost its POTENTIAL!
It really didnt.
While the cards themselves are very different, I think the question of which one is better comes down to the Fusion spells. The difference between a garnet and a combo piece is huge. So DPE is probably the overall better card.
4:50 Dashers summon is anything but sacky. If you get your board broken and are out of cards, you draw, lets say, a lvl6 that cannot SS itself, dasher gets it on the board AND simultaneously unbricks your hand for Celestial to activate.
I don't play modern formats so I've got no opinions on the two engines, but wanted to say the background music really improves your videos and is a nice touch.
Also as someone who is stuck in 2010-2011 with their Yu-Gi-Oh, both of these cards just sound busted as hell lmao
it was the bringer of end times online for sure honestly I’m sure people still use it and people still hate it
I had no idea that there's a Fusion of Dark Magician and Red Eyes Black Dragon, and i'm very upset that it's banned in Master Duel because of its OP Effects. It would be awesome to play a Fusion Card of both Yugi and Joey!
It's not the OP effects per say but more of its splashability. Requiring almost every deck to play the same cards to be viable is pretty unhealthy for the game which is pretty much what the tcg us going through right now. But if verte ever gets banned in master duel then dragoon is probably coming back.
@@gremlinonion1323 I agree, it will be allright if you see dragoon in dark magician and/or red eyes deck, because it what it is, their boss monster.
But, seeing that in every single deck, just using 2 monster on the field, it's 😑.
DPE happened on top of fusion destiny being a much better card that you can still use effectively even without anaconda
Man, must be nice to afford either of those cards :P I think it's down to wether you want that utility or you want a boss monster. Dragoon can get big, pop cards and swing for game, whereas DPE isn't really in that position.
Atm I'm running two REF and Two Dragoon, but I've almost got my DPE Engine complete as well. I play a Dragoon Turbo DM Deck, I'm going to be including DPE in it, and Branded when I get the rest of the Cards I need.
If you play competitive Pokemon, it's kind of similar to Skarmory vs Corviknight. Skarmory has a strong defense stat and Corviknight looks weaker in terms of overall stats. However, Corviknight is actually more versatile than Skarmory because of its stats. You could invest EVs in Skarmory's other stats, it is worth more if you invest in its defense rather than its other stats. Corviknight, however, is bulkier in terms of HP, defense, and special defense, so you can invest EVs into one of those 3 stats or its attack stat because its attack is slightly higher by several points. You can run the same moveset with both Skarmory and Corviknight, but ultimately, Corviknight will shine at the top.
MBT has the best take about Dragoon's prominence in the meta during its heyday
I know this is off topic, but is it me, or should there have been a sort of synchro structure deck to go with the Synchro festival like how they did Ciphers for Xyz festival? Like yea they did it when the card pack released, but I think we are still missing a structure deck option too.
"it reads like a custom card" so basically like half of the cards made after like 2015 that weren't purposely made bad
Going second, Dragoon is one of the most insane Verte or turn ending summons u can do with how much damage it can do.
Dragoon is more power.
DHero is more Consistency.
Agreed
This is correct when thinking the splash-able power comparison. But for a dedicated deck for Dragoon, i think it still a stronger card.
i.e. Other than using the red eyes fusion, i could opt to use Timaeus to summon him. It wouldn't lock my special summon.
Yes the cost for the negation is quite steep, but one thing you didn't cover is how hard to remove the Dragoon compared to DPE. Not only it is a tower, but also an ever increasing Atk one as well. Means, it will gain advantage when battle. DPE has 2500 where it is respectable enough, it is not as high as let's say 1x negation Dragoon with 4K attack which can easily beat over most boss monsters.
huh weird i always thought that Dragoon was like it was made by the people who would make custom yugioh card that is op as fuck for no reason
Wait. I definitely remember the community STRONGLY asking for this to be Banned when Drytron was abusing.
A bunch of cards came into existence to counter this card in the OCG, then it was released here with those cards. Dragoon never got to enjoy the liberty it had in the OCG in its inception, which is hilarious.
Still a good card, it just can't dance around cards like DPE does.
IMO, Dragoon's disappearance is fairly easy to explain - DPE and Fusion Destiny is a far better use of Verte than Dragoon and Red Eyes Fusion, and Dragoon was just meh at best. The only reason it saw any play at all was because it was the best card to summon off of Verte before DPE came around. Even then, Dragoon still had plenty of disadvantages - hard drawing into Red Eyes Fusion, having to play two bricky Garnets (at least Dasher and Celestial do something in the graveyard, unlike Red Eyes and DM), and you have to discard cards to activate its good effect. In a pre-DPE world, Dragoon is fairly good. Nowadays though, it's not great.
Opening Phoenix enforcer fusion spell: if you get nibirued or stopped in your combo you still get a boss monster and a pot of greed next turn, if you don't get stopped, you win.
Opening Dragoon fusion spell: either don't combo and pass with a -1 omni (wich will get you laughed at in 2022, the protection doesn't really matter that much, it's more of an annoyance than anything else) or lose to nibiru/any turn ending hand traps if you play the game.
Is that the background from Hardware Unboxed?
I use this in Branded Despia. Having a negate that can’t be targeted or destroyed by card effects that gains 1k for every negate for mid-late game, since by then their generic outs to cards like this have been burned out.
Not only that, but it can be extremely annoying to having to deal with Dragoon constantly being resummoned off of Theatre and/or Ad Lib. It basically becomes impossible to stop the recycle after a couple of times.
Yeah, I could run something else, but every time I’ve summoned Dragoon in a game, I usually win that game, and I summon him quite often during the grind game
So I play a Red-Eyes deck and I am very proud of it my only downside is I don't have anaconda or Dragoon unfortunately as I am broke af. Hopefully I pull Dragoon in the 2022 tin and I'll hopefully get El Dorado soon so I will hopefully pull anaconda there.
Anaconda cheap now . Might be banned here soon though. I play redeyes also and want my dragoon. It cost way to much
@@mattyorshin Yeah Verte is about $10 but I'm also a minor with no job sooo $10 is a lot for one card for me atm. But yeah Dragoon being around $100 base price (around $500 usd for the BROL Prismatic rare) is absolutely insane hopefully it goes down in price from the reprint in the 2022 tin
@@AlwaysSleepy I sure hope it does. I want it lol.
@@mattyorshin Same, it would be great I'm planning on getting 2 tins and testing my luck
@@AlwaysSleepy me to i might buy more then if i get duplicates make my money back
I personally run Dragoon in my control deck so I'm kinda glad it's not in the spotlight currently. I like having my 3 copies....
I played anaconda for a while in OCG going for Red Eyes Slash for Negation and Meteor Dragon for big hits not having Dragoon has been a struggle to play with, I eventually moved the red-eyes engine over to Dragon Link. What I mean to say is, it's kind of obvious that playing without the key card makes the fusion variant Red-Eyes decks kind of mediocre vs a high link Tempo Deck. So I can imagine even though I've not played DPE reading it's effect and hearing the value as you've explained means I can easily see why it's overshadowing the VERY Strong but in a way simplere Omni Negate Boss Monster
Dpe in general is a better choice than dragoon but we have max c in master duel and like we know that card can make you drow a lot if you're opponent did except the challenge but with dragoon there that will not make you anything at all
I like using dragoon as a dark magician player. But I don't think it's broken. Strong yes, but not broken. The package synergizes with the deck as a free foolish burial to dark magician turning on all the spells and traps associated with it.
>i use dragoon
>its not broken
lol
just lol
im thinking if buying Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon but dont know if it will hold its value. should i buy it from the 2022 tins?
DPE is only broken because of the scythe lock /hero added support. Dragoon only has verte. If it had a separate support Dragoon would still be better. As a singular card dragoon is still better than DPE.
Well depends. Dragoon is best to pop a board and swing for game. DPE is a constant annoyance that you can only get rid of by banishing really. So while i agree that dragoon is the stronger monster, DPE is more flexible in its usage and does not need your opponent to have a board to reach its max potential.
@@619ver1 but DPE NEEDS support to reach it's max potential. Unfortunately Dragoon has no real support. If anything the card's needed for it only bring down it's value. Bad fusion card, worse fusion material. No side support.
It's a no brainer DPE is the better choice because it's engine is miles better. Dragoon has no engine to work with unfortunately.
Which is funny because Dragoon is the one banned over DPE lol.
@@crowing3886 but that was said in the video and many people were already saying it when dpe came out, dragoon is better in a vacuum, as an individual card
But the entire dpe engine and "synergies" it has with a lot of decks are better overall
@@crowing3886 Well only in the OCG dragoon is banned. Also to be theoreitcal if you do not care about the burn any dragontype for it, which is why many speculate that branded fusion will push dragoon a bit again.
Based on the most recent YCS event, where DPE saw 58% representation in top 32 and Goon saw 0, it's safe to say that even without Scythe lock, DPE would still be much preferred over Goon. 9 of the 10 Adventurer Prank deck played DPE, and only 1 of them played Scythe/Dagda. The 1 topping Striker DPE deck didn't play Scythe, and all 3 BASED piles settled on cutting Scythe entirely. Invoked and Despia DPE didn't play Scythe either. The only prominent Scythe DPE decks that topped were 3 Cyberse Eldlich. And even if Scythe gets banned, they would either pivot to Trap Eldlich, or use Lancea instead, not Goon, especially with Branded Fusion just releasing.
Simple Maxx c. Since the TCG has no maxx c, everyone can run Kaiju’s and board breakers instead of the roach package.
Bad take
WTF are you trying to say?
I wish Maxx cc was unbanned 🤣
based take actually, this person is correct
if you have maxx c legal, the best strategy is to hard draw red eyes fusion to summon dragoon if your opponent pops maxx c, it puts a 3k boss monster thats hard to out while making maxx c only card neutral
hell, this exact reason of turning maxx c into upstart and still putting a hard to out boss is why dragoon is banned in ocg
its a strong maxx c counter
2:58 Why not though? I don´t understand this part.....
Anaconda only copies the effect, the restriction is not a part of the effect
@@andrejv.2834 I see. So it's kind of like Diamond Dude?
@@chanceneck8072 actually no, diamond dude is different as it just activates the spell, it doesn't copy anything
So in this case diamond dude would still put you under the restriction of red eyes fusion
The variety of ingredients are better on Phoenix Enforcer, much better than two vanilla monsters. Then the Fusion Destiny mixer spell is able to be done after the other cooking summons, not so with the other fusion mixer. Finally the cake monster is able to dodge and pop on its own without needing anymore card investment.
I like Dark Dragoon more as on the turn you summon it, in mid game for example or even going 2nd you put a 2 monster removal, burn for that, big thicc protection AND an omni negate to ensure you get that pop 2 burn effect go through while making sure you get the OTK in battle phase. DPE is more for the grind game and i dont consider a grind game to be fun as it can easily turn into stalemate.
For a single turn, Dragoon has a significantly bigger impact on the board is what im getting at.
In a simpler game state dragoon does beat dpe, but that utility pot of greed and free special is really nice.
I wish I could run DPE in Adamancipators. I just pulled one in a Burst of Destiny display box. I'll be adding it into another deck. Adamancipators, even as a rogue deck if that, is too much fun. I can't give it up lol
Haven't been able to fit either engine in my Daedalus build yet 😞
A simple way to solve issues like Dragoon and DPE: BAN VERTE!
Honestly I just want to ask how the Albaz deck can get Dragoon out now. Haven't read the new cards yet but I've always loved using Albaz so wanted to make a deck including Dragoon.
You are jusing the light healed hex and The fallen of Albaz for summoning Albion anf the you can banish both again to make Dragoon,because the hex becomes dark magician.You cant destroy a lonster but it is still a good monster
@@phallusmaximus9688 thanks
Good thing that the OCG finally banned Verte. No more shenanigans like this after branded fusion.
Verte doesn't work well with branded fusion.
@@arbogast4950 I mean that since branded fusion is already a strong support for fusion deck.
It kinda give konami a good reason to make verte retire.
It's dumb how restrictive red-eyes fusion is considering how weak red-eyes already is outside of dragoon
Tbh they should bring it back to master dual, with crap like Utopia OTK decks in the game and verte anaconda etc. It really doesn’t seem too op.
Red eyes dark dragoons design as a monster isn’t any more crazy than a Zeus or a accesscode talker or even a mirror jade, it doesn’t seem to help any major decks really but does help decks like cyber dragons
I just made a cyber dragon deck how does this card help tho?
I need Dragoon in my Dark Magician deck or my Red Eyes deck. I'm tired of Herald of Bullsh*t and all it's omni negates. Yes Yes, I know there are ways to murder it, kaiju and what not, but I'm a firm believer of keeping my deck with a theme.
I do run verte but it's for gaurdian chimera and greater poly. It's an insane card and if you hard open greater poly even better.
Still kinda godly in VW tho with muddy mudragon
we don't talk about dragoon no no no... we don't don't talk about dragoon
I think the hate for Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon mostly sits at the low end of competitive Yu-Gi-Oh. If you compare it to the decks that we're out at the time people were playing it, it's a win more card in addition to what meta at the time could do which could also cost some very needed hand advantage. If you splash it into a more Rogue strategy, it gives lower tiered decks an option to compete with tier 1 decks, and they may not be as worried about hand advantage for whatever reason, or are willing to sacrifice it for the negate.
I am just getting back into the tcg and managed to pull a phoenix enforcer. So, yeah I'm probably going to use it over the card I don't have.
Funny enuff dragon is very nice on guro, and drawing the fusion card is very nice as well because When you guro you usualy just set on first turn so The restricion is fine.
dpe all the way tho my newest deck is a invoked eldlich deck with dpe and a smallish branded fusion engine that can make dragon thanks to a fusion substitute (- the pop and burn effect tho) also can make other fusion like blue-eyes tyrant dragon
I have a theory that the reason this was a controversial Card wasn't because it was so powerful... it was because people were upset Dark Magician players finally had something to push back with.
Have you read dragoon?
@@Q67-m7z I main Dark Magician and have since the GOAT era. Yes I've read it. I don't see why it's any worse than Baronne De Fleur or Blue-Eyes Alternative Ultimate Dragon
@@GaelicMongrel2023 its a normal monster that requiers *2 tributes* and it *only has 2500 atk* unless your playing deck centered around dm its just a worst blue eyes. Baronne has an actual effect wich negates and its a pop with better stats *and* you dont have to play it in maindeck *AND* it doeant take your ns.
Dm as a card was always bad, even in early years it was just worst summon skull and couldnt compete with power of djin, let alone goat when monsters with actual effects existed.
@@Q67-m7z You seem to have misunderstood me. I was saying that I don't see why the *Dragoon* is any worse than those two, not Dark Magician. I'm aware of all that. This is my point: People were upset that it finally made the Dark Magician archetype viable.
honestly i think the main difference u didn't mention was that DPE wins by creating a simplified gamestate where you are ahead, while dragoon just kills the opponent straight out. the main weakness also not said is if your dragoon gets negated by droplet it can be removed for free by anything but for DPE you have to use non destructive removal or he just comes back