YOU'VE BEEN USING THESE WRONG
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- Your limb bolts are actually not for what you think...
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I was a welder and machinist for 40 years, you are absolutely correct. Aluminum is so soft, armstrong archers will power though and deform the threads immediately, first turn under pressure geometry you are "screwed"
What about 7071 billet aluminum? Like the riser from the discovery
It would never in a thousand years even think of adjusting tiller while strung. Steel screws going into aluminium is not a happy mix.
That was some great advice. I suspect adjusting the limb bolts under pressure may apply to compound bows as well. Just not a smart thing to do regardless. Glad I ran across this video since I just bought a new recurve bow, my first, and waiting on arrival to get it assembled and get shooting. Hate to muck something up before I even get started.
Great video and true words! The bolts are for adjusting the tiller, not draw weight. That's why they're named "Tiller-bolts", not "Draw weight-bolts". Many archery shops in Germany offer a limb rental program. So you can evolve with draw weight and test different limbs without breaking the bank.
Wow! That's amazing - I've never heard of that but wish more archery shops did that! That's such a great idea. Love it!
Actually i was just reading hoyt manual and it literally says: Limb Weight Adjustment Bolt (Tiller Bolts). And hoyt invented this ILF system.
Stainless steel bolts in aluminium have a problem called “Galling” and this is what is mostly happening here. When the threads are loaded by the string, you can be merrily turning the screw, no problem, and within a 1/4 turn the screw can feel a bit stiffer, then seize completely, and may as well be welded😮 Lubricating the threads can help massively, providing you do it before galling raises its ugly head, an should almost eliminate the risk of this happening at all. I would recommend lubricating with ACF50, which also has corrosion inhibiting properties, or using one of the “super lubricant” greases like Du Ponts “Krytox” if cost is no option👍 This range of lubricants an ability that means that once the surfaces are lubricated, they always will be, no matter what!! (Think red hot conveyor belts in steel rolling mills) Jaguar car dealers should stock this grease as a repair part for folding soft top roofs. You get the tiniest sachet you will ever see, because this stuff cost circa £1000 per gallon. Part # may be KSP205 for grease, and KSP105 for oil
The other problem that can happen here is getting to the point where there are not enough threads engaged to be strong enough, and this must be avoided at all times. De stringing the bow in this instance will make no difference.
Don't worry too much if you strip out the threads on your out-of-warranty, Good Quality 6061-T6 or 7075-T6 aluminum riser.
Helicoils, Slimserts, Rosan Inserts and a few others are excellent repairs/upgrades which will provide you with non-rotating hardened steel threads on the wear surfaces.....Then, you "Can" adjust tiller with your #50 limbs already strung.
Find an ISO 9001 certified Machine Shop to evaluate the damage to your riser and perform the work.......I would charge about $100 for a helicoil repair and probably double for an insert type of repair/upgrade.
Every threaded hole on your Good Quality Aluminum riser can probably be upgraded.
That's good to know! Maybe a couple of people here might contact you 😂
@@OnlineArcheryAcademy If I was a pro archer, I would want to have the confidence in my equipment allowing me to adjust tiller while standing on the line.
We can also eliminate the need to lock the tiller bolt after making the adjustment by applying new aerospace design requirements (new tricks).
With the limb bolts at the mid position, you say that the bow is
- more efficient
- more forgiving
What is the reason for this; did you test it?
Great questions!
For the limb bolts fully turned in, I've tested this a fair amount and found that when the limb is bottomed out, the tuning is more critical. Let me give an example. With the bolts all the way in, I found that it's much harder to pin down a setup that gets clean arrow flight and good bareshaft readings. It wasn't impossible, but the margin for error was smaller. So when you translate this to shooting it means if you make a small mistake it will be penalised more because the setup is more sensitive.
For the limb bolts turned all the way out, I haven't tested this fully. This is based on the stability of the limb against the bolt, because if it's turned out too far there is a much smaller contact area of the limb on the bottom of the bolt due to the angle of the limb. I hope that clarifies that a bit :)
@@OnlineArcheryAcademy I've been shooting Barebow for over eight months now. When I bought my first riser, the tiller bolts were screwed all the way in. Not knowing better, I've been shooting my bow like that since...or until my new riser arrives. My WNS Explorer limbs are still decent, so i will reuse them on the new riser with the bolts in a neutral position. I hope in doing so, it quiets the bow & provides positive results.
Thanks for the insight. 😊
I initially thought your title might be referring to English adverbs but when I realised what you were actually talking about, I settled down to another excellent lesson about archery equipment. I once scraped the finish of a limb by adjusting a limb bolt without de-stringing the bow. Never again!
Haha! Maybe I should do a spin-off channel talking about grammar 😂
I tightened the tiller bolts all the way down, less 2mm. The bow shot great but after several thousand arrows, the upper bolt sheared off inside the bolt socket.
Tiller bolt all the way in will dig itself into the limb. Tiller bolt to much out and it is not much from being flush with the limbs, will put a lot of twisting force to dovetail bolt which will try to push it out of the pocket. In result there is barely more than 3 turns of useable tiller bolt rotation range even on 15turn thread used on W&W Nano Max I checked this on.
There's a reason why they're called Tiller Bolts and not "Poundage Bolts"...
How can you bring the tiller snd screw bolts of an ATF riser back to the manufacture original position?
I would not bet any money on that quality control you mentioned. I had one set of NS limbs and had to replace them as they were twisted. Current ones are twisted as well but not to extent as original were. NS limbs are very narrow at the ends and have little twist rigidity there.
Limb bolts to far out is most dangerous. Lot more than to far in. Not only because you can strip riser thread but also because ILF socket is designed to fit on very small margin of angle. When tiller bolt is too far out, limb detent assebly will force whole limb out of the limb pocket. I was astonished how little tiller bolt turns this system allows. On my Nano Max with total of almost 15 turns between tiller bolt out to full in to the bottom, usable turns is 5-6 near the bottom.
Oh, that's odd to have that - I've always seen great QC and had a lot of stuff over the years that's always been really good. Hopefully you got it all sorted :)
Great video again. I have problems about positive, neutral and negative tiller settings. If the curvature of the limbs and riser is continuously smooth, will it automatically gives a positive tiller? And appreciate what's the recommended positive tiller measurements in mm? Thanks, Ashe.
Thanks Mikhail! Good question. No is the answer, just because it's hard to see the small differences that would result in say -2mm, 0mm or +2mm tiller. For the tiller, somewhere between the range of +0-8mm is normally the recommended. There is a video coming out soon about this :)
This is very helping 👍👍
Awesome! Thanks for watching :)
Thanks fella 👍 spot on 🙌
The money u recurve guys spend on a bow is crazy as hell
I've always thought that W&W measured limbs at 26.5"...
I just had an email asking the same thing - this is the first I have heard of this so I'll check this with W&W to confirm how they do it :) Either way the key thing is that W&W limbs tend to be slightly heavier than Hoyt limbs for the equivalent marked poundage.
@@OnlineArcheryAcademy Ashe I don't know if this helps but taken from my WINWIN manual "WIN&WIN high quality limbs are available in marked weight from 28# to 48# in
two pounds increment. This marked weight is measured at 26 1/4” (AMO standard)
to the throat of the bow grip (pivot point) when the limbs are used with 25” risers
basically"
This is from my Hoyt manual The weight marked on the lower limb is measured at a 28” standard A.M.O. (Archery Manufacturers and Merchants
Organization) draw length. A.M.O. draw length is measured at
26 1/4” to the throat of the bow grip plus 1 3/4”. This produces
an industry standard by which recurve bows are measured.
MK use the same AMO distance BUT the tiller bolt positions vary vetween the 3 so marked# for MK is at tiller bolts out and for Hoyt Tiller bolts mid I recall .
Good video. I never touched these bolts, but I always imagined that could be helpful in transition between limbs, to economize, going four to four. For example, if you have 34# limbs and want to upgrade to 38#, you can try first 6 months to 36# with the 34# limbs and the bolts in. This make sense?
Exactly! You can use them for this and it's really helpful, but if you want the ideal position then it's good to get them in a nice curve :)
What is the hole below the tiller bolt?
What would be best for a child with a draw of 20inches? He is currently shooting a 21"riser with 22# short limbs. So it would be a 62" bow pulling 17.8#. We we're told to tighten to increase weight. Now they are all the way and I'm wondering if it would be better to get a shorter riser? My son is 9 shooting Barebow. Pulling weight isn't the problem he just doesn't get the flex on the limbs at his draw. Looking for good honest assistance.
I have a question my tiller limb bolt is little different between top and bottom, the bottom limb bolt is higher then top bolt but the tiller is same when it measure(neutral)so, is this correct way to put the bolt in this position? and another thing is that when I keep it the two bolt in the same level at that time the tiller is in the positive tiller so how to fix this problem to get the limb bolt in same height level to get neutral tiller
That's normal, don't worry :) The important thing is to get the tiller correct, the height of the limb bolts might be slightly different
Sir there is a issue with my Hoyt bow
the string is not placing on the limbs correctely . How to fix that? I KNOW THAT I AM STRINGING MY BIW CORRECTLY.
I ruined the threads on a hoyt helix riser some years ago so ...
Ouch!
Nice explenation...But I have used Hoyt Epik 25 inches handel and with Win n win NS 70 42 limb...How maintain my poundeg with tiller..pleas tell me this essue with handle with another limbs...pleas
I am new to this, could you tell me for the string walking what measurement in cm should I put on the upper and lower blades?
Interesting...
How do you feel about the Gillo GT adjustable >30% draw weight?
Brilliant 👍
I use a 120lb longbow we don't have bolts or screws lol
@@d.3984 Is the D for dickhead?
Good point, I never would have thought of the thread stripping loaded, BECAUSE, as an engineer I would have that thought that thread bolt design would be derated at LEAST 50% over maximum possible load, strung, at typical estimated high usage over max bow life. Pathetic design and production standards, especially if the bow we're discussing has a consumer price of $300 or more. On a $30 bow, that is much more understandable, actually likely.
Most people don't know that to sell something for $100 retail you have to manufacture it for about $10, for about two levels of typical profit in the supply chain, transportation, etc. If you saw the typical mark up on jewelry or 'designer' clothes or medicine you'd be incensed, shall we say 30,000% or orders of magnitude higher (a guess, for the worst of them, some drugs, where the pricing is based on "how much is your child worth to you" or some other BS, often for medicinal concoctions those companies received FREE, taxpayer funded) and cost four cents a pill to manufacture.
It would be simple for manufacturers to helicoil or steel insert that obviously marginal thread to upgrade the external thread to a MUCH higher failure loading, one that actually works 100% of the time, barring manufacturing defects which, with proper procedures such as good quality control (not what 98% of people think it is) and quality final inspection should make it to the consumer at very low rates.
Then again I just had to install head bolt thread inserts in my Toyota Camry (nasty job, all of it) when the head bolts pulled the threads clear out of the block to the point that I could remove the center rear bolt with my fingers (not exaggerating, at all, should be probably 75 foot pounds or more, by feel on the new bolts), so there's that. Ankle biters that want to shave $5 (probably not even that, not close to that on a bow for two threads made in China I'm guessing) off the price of manufacture at the buyer's sometimes heavy expense. I get so damned tired of it, actually, when I dig into things to fix them and see utter disregard for the consumer.
My opinion, if you buy a car for 20-30k and well up they could afford some damned thread designs that virtually NEVER fail, not once, ESPECIALLY in labor intensive to repair areas in all the cars or bows they've sold. It's not a damned rocket, where margins really do have to be kept to a reasonable level, especially in non critical areas to meet minimum functional requirements and safety.
Just my soap box bitch for the day, sorry, but GOOD GRIEF, have some integrity and pride, manufacturers. Many bean counting ankle biters and 'support' personnel are a bane to society, my experience, and usually useless when you actually have a question for them. I'd rather pay 10% more and get something that WORKS and LASTS than some piece of crap that will be in the environmentally destroying refuse pile and where replacements need to be unnecessarily manufactured LONG before it should have been. But hey, you can't sell as much future crap if you produce good stuff, now can you? Bucks at the expense of everything else, that's 'our' motto today. Great sustainable thinking.
Great video, thx, but you do realize that even after watching this video people are going to be adjusting draw weight with these bolts, which is also the manufacturer's intent, as I understand it. For 'squaring up' the bow geometry, the adjustments don't need nearly the typically designed amount of travel. Even by today's final product standards the bows aren't remotely THAT bad. And in terms of geometry, the bow should be far more accurate in that respect today than, say, a 100 year old bow. CNC and protocol, etc, does account for something, sometimes a LOT in that area.
I also suspect that this adjustment may be critical for the Olympic archery shooter, useful for a hunter, more like useless for someone shooting at a back yard target for fun on rare occasions. For many, I doubt if you adjusted one fully out and the other fully in it would make much difference...never tested that and could be way off base, but that is my off the top of my pinhead guess.
The design is fine, the problem is people are too lazy to take 30 seconds to destring the bow before adjusting them.
Great info, adjusting tiller/poundage while strung does feel mechanically unsympathetic. And also useful to know the difference between W&W and Hoyt limb weights 👍🏻
Thanks Tony! :) Glad it was helpful :)
I shot the first adj bow and upto that point all limbs were accurately tillered.It is apparent the adj bow was designed to save the
manufacturer the time and money of doing this.Consequently many cheaper limbs and mid price ones are badly tillered and you cannot correct this properly with the bolts
if you want a relability and optimum performance.
👍🏼👍🏼NOBODY has ever had the answer as to why W&W limbs are always heavier than stated.!! 👍🏼👍🏼
Try saying the same thing 100 times instead of 50
Good point, thanks :) I'll be more concise next time. I hope the video was still valuable though :)
@@OnlineArcheryAcademy Yes it was, Thanks for info
Alum miniomn
Ashe I think your next video should be titled 'hot college girls' but obvs be archery related ..... 😉 anything in the pipeline ( ooer missus) about tiller tuning and effects of tiller at full draw? I may have missed that one if you have done that already but there again it might have been titled 'what the butler saw' which explains why i might not have seen it. 😆
Haha! I'll reign in the titles a bit :P
Just change the title to "you may have". Dont apologize for something youve done on purpose. Stand by your decisions. Dont tell the squirrel youre sorry after you shot it in the head.
Damn clickbait got me. This video could have been more concise. Should have been 2 or 3 minutes.
You can't "cross thread" something that is already threaded... that makes no sense.
Wrong, you can only cross threading something that is already threaded. It's quite the well-known technical term for accidentally cutting a new thread into an existing thread at an angle hence crossing them. It's mostly happens when inserting hard steel bolts into softer materials like aluminum.
😮😮😮😮😮
I've been watching some of your videos, but this one is just pure bullsh*t, sorry. It doesn't matter at all if the limbs form a 'continuous arc'. Also, you didn't explain AT ALL what the tiller actually is and how to correctly adjust it. Btw I doubt that many archers often use the tiller bolts to change their bow weight since the potential gain of doing so is a maximum difference of 8-10% in draw weight.
I'm sorry you didn't like it Martin. But I have found that this is an important part of the setup of the bow, and varying too far to the extremes from this optimum setting can cause the tuning to be critical and penalise errors more strongly. I wish it wasn't common to see the limb bolts wound completely in or completely out, but I see it so often.
It's not as important for newer archers to get the optimum limb bolt position but for higher level archers who pay thousands of pounds for their equipment, it's often overlooked and they're not getting everything they can out of their setup.
@@OnlineArcheryAcademy Still, you should explain what the tiller bolts are actually for and how to set tiller correctly.
@@martinromer6997 It's being edited as we speak :)
I use mine to adjust the weight because after a 2 year break it was too much for me and it made enough difference that I wasn't struggling to hold the bow after an hours shooting.