The Great Cast Bullet Sizing Controvery
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- Опубликовано: 15 янв 2016
- In the past, cast bullets were routinely sized to the diameters that shooters needed as the gun dimensions varied. But with standardization, Lee came out with molds that dropped bullets in the ranges shooters needed so that sizing was often not needed. But today, there is still controversy over this subject...
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Once again, another GREAT video! We are lucky to have this guy making these excellent videos!! Thank you sir.
+Gage Clements -- And I'm lucky to have enthusiastic viewers like yourself - welcome aboard the Hot Lead Zone Express...we're going to go to many places of interest...FC
Fortune Cookie, thanks for your insight into the sizing discussion. I was, for a long time, a practitioner of sizing all my cast bullets. At this point, I chamber cast the cylinders of my revolvers and make a decision whether to size or not base upon the dimensions of the chamber cast. What I've found is a number of oversized chambers in my Ruger revolvers. For example, .4555 and .453 in 45 Colt guns. So I often shoot bullets in the .4565 and .4545 range. The rub comes when I try to seat and crimp these bullets in Lee dies for example. The dies tolerances are so tight that they will swage the case walls and shear lead from the bullet before it's fully seated. So, I then started seating using the next larger caliber seating die, e.g., seating .44 bullets with a .45 caliber seating set up. But, when I crimp in the .44 caliber die I get bullet swaging as I crimp. Any thoughts on how i might solve that?
Perfect video for what I’m facing. It’s taken 50 years for me to get around to loading blackpowder in my 45 colts. I fiqure I got time now. I’ve been from the traditional camp but swapping out modern lube from the lyman is a pita so I’ve taken on other ways for less used calibers. Started with the Lee tumble lube designs and pan lubing my favorite cast lyman designs. I was wondering about my 454190s running thru old style but modern sixguns. I haven’t checked yet but assume cylinder will mike .452. I picked up a Lee .452 sizer but I think I just shot unsized .454s with wonderful accuracy and zero leading in the barrel. Seemed to look fine in my cases without any excess bulge so maybe we’ll test both. Thanks for the video and info. 👍
I’ve always said the final swagging is in the barrel.
Fc, Firstly let me thank you for many hours of entertainment and hints and tips that your video's have provided. I have watched most of them and found them to be well presented and informative.
I am a avid caster and coater, although I follow a different trend in the fact I mainly use Hi-Tek coating rather than PC.
The point of this comment is about your TL casts and not sizing due to the fact that sizing reduces the already micro-groove of the TL design.
Across many reloaders that have move to coating over grease lube, there is a trend developing where we are moving more and more towards, and this trend is the use of grooveless molds.
The humble groove has been part of casting for so long, we expect it to be there. However the reason it is there is to hold and support the old method of lubrication - wax/grease etc. With the onset of people like me and yourself who are stepping out of the old ways of lubrication, and moving to other means, PC or HiTek , this means that the actual reason for the groove being there has now disappeared.
Grooveless molds, are far easier to cast with, the casts drop far easier, so easy that the wooden mallet is no longer required the bump the casts free of the groove lip in the mold.
I think that if you were to coat TL and size them, the reduction of the micro-groove is now a non issue. The reduced grooves do not matter, as they are no longer necessary anyway.
I always size my casts, always. For several reasons, but mainly to guarantee the each and every round I build is uniform.
So , you no longer have to worry about the TL grooves, and resizing, the reason they are even there has been superseded by the fact that the cast is now coated.
Keep up the good work.. Mike (Grem460).
Mike Gremlin - Thanks for your post. When I e-mailed Andy Lee (grandson of Richard Lee), the head of the Casting Division at Lee Precision, he told me that he had molds made for himself for powder coating that were grooveless. When I asked when the molds would be available for general consumption, his reply was he did not feel there would be enough interest to warrant putting them into main production. If enough casters would contact Andy, he might change his mind... I should do a video on that...get the word out to start a campaign. The molds would be easier for Lee to produce since no grooves need be in the cherries...Best Regards, FC
I have a lee 6 cavity mold that I made almost grooveless, I have a Grooveless mold made by MiHec in Europe and last but not least I have a Grooveless mold made by CBE here in Australia. I do believe that Lee will make a mold grooveless if you order it that way, however it is not cost efficient ....yet. One day it may be..
Also I invite you to have a look how I size my casts and coat them... simply look for Grem460 here on RUclips. You will see 99% of my casts are now totally groveless.
Take care!!
I believe that you hit the nail on the head, (TIME) it takes time to size all of our bullets that we Make for our shooting and if you don't need your Pistol to be a X- Machine at 50 yards because you shoot Cowboy or Action shooting at steel targets Your needs are met. I see both sides of the story and because all of my molds are traditional that I have collected over the years and I Have the Machine that takes the work out of sizing and Lubricating (Star unit) with automatic feed. I can do a thousand bullets in about an hour and a half. and with that I can make all the bullets that I'm going to shoot through out the year in just a few weeks of casting, sizing and lubricating. It's kinda like a Race car or a Chain saw how fast do you want to go and how much do you want to pay for it. as you know I also encapsulate my bullets with a hard drying wax so the driving bands are lubricated as a finished product, this helps eliminate leading at the chamber end when the rifling first grabs the Bullet.
+Thorsaxe777 -- Oh yes, that Star machine that we all wanted but settled for less...the fastest and the best sizer luber bar none...Have a great day, FC
Plus, the RCBS Lube-A-Matic is another neat piece of equipment we can bolt to our bench!
+dale meade -- Absolutely - and the heater, hair dryer, or electric iron can be used to heat for the harder lubes... have a great day, FC
+dale meade -- Finding a new use for it sizing powder coated bullets as necessary - no lube to fool with - just run 'em through.... Have a great day, FC
Just started on "modern" been casting round ball for a while now does not require sizing starting on 9mm/.380 and the headaches there associated with size no size, lube or powder coat. This was informative
WOW your a bullet casters G-MAN to have de-coded lees instructions. BEST guy you are out here.
I generally size them all sometimes before and after powder coating them..
Sizing is so easy and helps sort out bad mold drops.
Agree.
All I know is after a hundred rounds my pcc starting hitting several feet left or right randomly at 100 yards. Im trying a different powder coat and sizing now. I load and shoot bulk so its important for me not to get leading. I was using a dark mirror bronze but it was not a base coat. Going to try a simple red gloss.
So i am a little confused, more than a little. I bought some lead 38 spec. bullets with groove already lubed years back in the great ammo shortage. I loaded a few yesterday and they didnt want to go all the way in the cylinder of my model 19. So i broke out the lee factory crimp die and after using that they went in great, but you can really see the waviness of the grooves in the brass. Do you think its ok? I loaded them down to hopefully prevent leading or is that no help?
So if you have a mold that makes a cast that is already the exact size for your chamber, and then powder-coat the bullets or something, the final product would end up being to big, no? are there any molds that make clearance for any coats you add on?
Is a .358 9mm cast bullet sized to .356 going to have a detrimental affect on accuracy? Can .358 be shot unsized in a 9mm bore? I'm asking because I'm seeing the .358 diameter being offered as a 9 in some of the no lube groove bullet molds, thx for any comments.
FC45LC - You are the only channel that has mentioned the S&W 25 45LC - I have one that is Nickel Plated with the 8 3/8 Barrel...You should do a video on that model...Thx Joe...
+JBBooks4440 -- I did one as one of my earliest videos - but a current shooting video would be good -- Thanks for the request.. FC
Good info.
+treesablowin -- Thanks for posting comment, and Good Reloadin' to ya, FC
Do the powder coated bullets need to be greased? I've got the Lee 44mag 240 gn .thanks and what about the Lee 1oz slugs for shot gun can that help with saving my shotgun for years to come? Thanks so much
You just sold me on lee molds for the win. Does the no sizing the tumble Lube Lee bullet designs on the rifle bullets as well?
I agree with most of what you say here. What is not mentioned, that all experienced cast bullet makers do.. First thing before starting to cast bullets is slug the bores of all the guns you are casting for. Try to get a bullet at least .015 larger than bore size. If you cast for Marlins expect the bore to be larger than advertised size for that cartridge and you may need .003-4 larger . If you powder coat 9 of 10 bullets will need sizing one or two thousands. As for your interpretation of the lee mould instructions I disagree there is contradictory statements. Lee is just covering all the bases for using the mold. Agreed most tumble lube bullets are close enough to standard size they won't need sizing. However, in some guns the cast size will be undersize and cause poor accuracy or leading. Just be sure you know what size bullet your gun needs Very good video as are most of Fortune Cookie's. As an old guy shooting cast bullets since 1949 and casting since 1952 the line everyone has to have to introduce themselves seems corny to me. Like I'd like to know where is a "hot lead zone" Maybe FC was a warrior and has been in a hot lead zone...Pun intended. Keep up the good work.
This may be off topic for this video, but I have a couple of questions regarding the efficacy of powder coating bullets.
1) Have you ever recovered a spent powder coated round to examine the wear patterns of the powder coat?
2) As powder coat is applied via relatively low temperatures, have you experienced a build up of powder coat material in the barrel that might mimic leading, if only in a minimal capacity?
Thank you so much for your videos, they are fascinating. (Casting especially) Thanks again for answering my questions, in the past, please keep it up!
+Wyatt Lacey -- Sorry to not answer until now, but Google has been leaving comments out of my inbox - how else are we supposed to get them unless we stumble onto them later by accident? -- great questions - As of the last four months or so, I have not been gathering range scrap lead since I am letting others pick it up...too many gatherers will result in the range reacting to the "abuse". Therefore, I have not been seeing any of my fired PC bullets, but it's about time I did the gathering again - will check for that. Any residue from PC comes out in the first passes of the brass brush - is not significant but I would think that there would have to be some. Powder coated bullets result in easier cleaning of the gun (note: the powder burns on the front of revolver cylinders is still there with PC bullets - too bad - that would have been a plus). Have a great day, FC
My question is, what do you do if you need to size after you powder coat? Powder coat after sizing?
Question. I am a newbie to make a cast bullets. I am looking at loading for a 3030 or 832 Winchester special when I’m looking at the Dyson I am trying to figure out how large diameter mold should be and the die. For example on the 3030 should the mold be .309 for the mold and for the die, or should they be larger on the mold and then run through the die? I’m looking at a gas jack system I’m gonna use the Luba Matic to.
Fortunecookie45lc seems to me the best avenue would be in mold selection. Molds that drop to the . 001 over can simply be powder coated or tumble lubed with alox and that is the end of it. If a mold is dropping . 454 then it would have to be sized in most 45 colts so getting a mold that drops lead just slightly over is the ticket .
thank you for great info . could you share with us what Lee 6 cavity Molds in 9mm, 10mm, and 45 cal , do not need sizing ? thank you Gods bless on your chanel sir
FC, what I think I'm hearing you say is no sizing TL molds, but yes to sizing on the regular Lee molds. Leaving the lube and the PC out of the picture.
+Nick J -- I've found that the Lee TL molds do not need sizing - they are made to drop bullets that we can use right out of the drop. As for other bullets, depends on what the calipers tell us...if more than .002 bigger than what we want, time to size 'em. Otherwise load 'em and shoot 'em. Best to ya... FC
Hey Fortune cookie Ive got a request i'm trying to successfully alloy
pure Antimony with lead to make some very hard casts have you done this?
and if so would you make a video? I'm thinking that it may be more
economical to buy and alloy small amounts of antimony rather than
alloying larger quantities of tin. and make sort of a home made super
hard harding ingot. great work man love your vids
+Kevin Nelson -- I know where you are coming from. Pure tin is safe and easy - alloys with lead like sugar and water. Antimony is the real hardener of lead alloys. (forget about doing all that heat treating stuff you hear about - requires arsenic in the alloys) However, it is not recommended for casters like you or I to work with pure antimony. It is toxic and melts at a much higher temp than lead. In order to melt it into the alloy, we have to raise the lead temp way high (in the neighborhood of 1200 degree F.). If you have ever seen 900 degree lead glowing a bright red in pitch night, you will be uncomfortable with the idea of 1200 degree lead. Rotometals has been supplying casters with bullet alloys for 75 years and they make life easy for us by making SuperHard alloy (30% antimony) - there's your super hard that you mention in easy 5 pound bars... Good castin' to ya, FC
If you have oversized cast bullets that still chamber are you creating dangerous pressures to get that bullet down the barrel? I'm new to reloading cast bullets and normally run every PC bullet thru my Lee sizing die but I'm curious if there's more pressure/velocity with unsized bullets. Thanks!
+Dan Meadows -- Great question, Dan - but what we are saying here is not oversized bullets (defined as bullets that are out of range and dangerous to use). They are bullets that are acceptably large yet safe and accurate to shoot. You will note in many of my videos that the loaded rounds do not have excessive bulges from bullet seating indicating bullets that are in range. .001-.002 or even .0025 bigger than chamber throats (revolvers) or groove diameter (auto pistols) are completely OK. We are not talking about ammo that you have to hit a chambering assist knob to get into battery. Our loads should drop in and drop out regardless of how big the bullets are. These do not create dangerous pressures on firing unless we are right at maximum loadings and then we would see the pressure problems in extraction, ejection and primer signs telling us stop shooting and back off the powder charges. Then we would show up with the same bullets and pressure safety is restored. We may be getting higher pressure with unsized bullets or even when we shoot powder coated bullets, but higher is not dangerous unless it is overpressure and each shooter needs to be cognizant of any of that when we are shooting untested loadings. Or for that matter, at all times. Good shootin' to ya, great question and your concerns are good to have.... FC
I bought the lee bullet resizer everything works great.
Im new in casting
Do you size bullets before or after coating ?
In case if i want to reduce the bullet diameter to .003 do you recomend sizing it before coating or after that.
Before
also the powder coat may be inconsistent make the overall diameter on some .001" larger then others does this matter? again that would mean taking a measurement on every bullet cast?
MG - That's where sizing the final powder coated bullet takes care of all that...If the final bullets are consistent and not overly large for our caliber, then no sizing is needed. However, I've found that sizing is necessary more often than not... Best Regards, FC
new caster here, so if my Lee mold drops a little over .358 with traditional grooves should I be okay shooting those out of my GP-100?
Slug your bore.
Revolvers are less picky about sizing, though.
@@pozsmith8207 Revolver bullets are sized to the cylinder chamber throat.
Sizing cast bullets really can be summed up as: Use the largest bullet possible that will reliably and consistantly load into the specific gun.
We slug the bore on breachloaders, such as rifles and auto loading pistols and rifles, and we can slug or measure with a guage the cylinder throats on a revolver.
If it loads problem free and is a minimum of .001" over barrel groove diameter, youre golden.
Hello good video. How can you work the driving bands on the base and the nose. I use the Lee Bullet Sizing Die Kits.
I read one reason for sizing was to make sure the bullets were perfectly round.
Don't hate me for being a paranoid sizer of all my bullets! Like I state before in a batch I will find a snug one here and there while sizing in the Lee sizers...
+gman77gas -- Hello to gman77gas - Hope you are having a fine day, Gary -- what you are noticing is the variation from bullets cast from different cavities... Most of my 6 cav Lee molds are pretty consistent, but I have one 6 cav that has a renegade cavity that drops bullets way bigger than the other 5 cavs. Whenever those odd bullets reach my sizers, it's "one of those". I've learned to simply skip that cav to eliminate that. No need to send back to Lee - it's not problematic really... Best to ya, FC
Just resize and never worry about it. It's just to much of a headache. Do you measure every bullet? What happens if a bit of molten lead finds it way into the mold block as you are casting and now some of your rounds are a few thousands larger in one dimension? I've had cast bullets that won't chamber because of this reason, problem was some of them would chamber. This made for a very dangerous situation. Likely you would have no problem with soft lead but why take a risk like that when it can easily be solved with sizing. It's another step but it doesn't take too long.
Exactly how i feel. Just get a lee bullet sizer and size them after you coat. Ive seen guys have issues reloading 9mm multiple times they didn't size after coatimg
I use to size bullets for my 45 - 1911. Then started powder coating bullets.Even with the extra size from the powder coat and not resizing I have found the accuracy has increased. Now my thoughts are why waste the time sizing the bullets.
James Pollard - That's it..!! If your ammo runs well and shoots well, no need to size them. If the bullets are too big to run in your gun, you need to size them. Best to ya, FC
Depends on the gun and on the bullet.
Hey cookie I've had trouble with a 128 Lee after powder coating he doesn't want to go in the chamber of my Ruger SR1911 all the other ones in 45 work good but not that round nose it'll work good in a revolver but not in the semi auto when I was just drizzle lubing it they would work reason I got rid of it was it was too hard to wipe off every single bullet nose after reloading what can I do to make that better hey cookie I've had trouble with a 128 Lee after powder coating it doesn't want to go in the Chamber of my Ruger Sr 1911 all the other ones in 45 work good but not that round knows it'll work good in a revolver but not in this semi-auto when I was just drizzle losing it they would work reason I got rid of it was it was too hard to wipe off every single bullet nose after reloading what can I do to make that better with the powder coating
I wish that lee offered different size molds.. the bulge in the case is not usually the problem.. it is the bullet hanging up on the chamber.. you can tell cause the bulge will not chamber at the start.. a bullet that is way over chamber size.. will stop just short of complete chambering.. yes.. powder coat will add size.. they need to be sized mostly.. in the lube size thing.. I like a certain lube... my sizer is set to the point that it really does not size much but it puts my fav lube in the grooves. But.. as cast with liquid does work. I do not count on sizing to make a bullet more accurate. just to add lube and 'cull' some.. Powder coat changes things.. it adds dia. sometimes too much. The Lee push through seems to be a good solution to that.
I have played with powder coating my bullets that come out of the mold undersized (to me) this would be the least labor intensive way except to just tumble lube the right size bullet.. but.. tumble lube is not powder coat.. PC does have some advantages that only the reloader can decide if it is worth the effort or not.
Doran Maxwell - Great thread..!! This was all from Richard Lee who deemed that not all cast bullets need to be sized, but all cast bullets need lube. His TL molds dropped closer to what we wanted and he said if the rounds chamber - the diameter of the bullet is OK. Same as what you are saying. Wonder where powder coating cast bullets first started - no one seems to know - Australia? There needs to be a Powder Coated Bullet Reloading Manual...but there's a whole lot of work that needs to be done first, and the reloading companies are not interested - funny, though - powder coating is gaining momentum - at some point, the industry is going to have to recognize it. And PC molds should indeed be smaller diameter drops so we can PC 'em up to spec. kinda like paper patch bullets. I never wanted to do PC as my 45/45/10 systems were so efficient, couldn't see how PC could be any better. Well, turns out that PC definitely has its place so cast bullet shooters have more options today depending on what they want to do vs the time required to prep the bullets...echoing your comment again... Have a great day to ya, FC
yes... exactly what I thought on the sizing... I have some expensive RCBS molds that throw undersize bullets (undersize to me).. I was thinking the powder coat would bring em up to size or more and then a quick size through a push through lee to get em perfect. to be honest I have not taken the plunge to PC my own bullets yet. I would love to do some accuracy testing at 25 and 50 yards sandbagged to check against a know revolver and regular cast load.. maybe all in the same day.
Hi I just bought the Lee .270 Winchester 135 grain bullet mold that allows for a gas check to be used but I can't find any bullet sizing dies. I've searched Ebay and also did a google search but not even one product showed up other than dies for sizing the brass cases. Does this mean that there aren't any bullet sizing dies made for the .270? Is there a situation that I'm not aware of whereby high powered rifle bullets don't need resizing?
Well, nevermind.... I just called TitanReloading and found out why I'm not finding the bullet sizing die for the .270. Mike said their Lee .270 sizing die is sold under the actual size of what the die forms the bullet to which is .278. So when you do a search for the .270 bullet sizing die, search ".278" and/or "90261" which is the item's model number.
Journey4Sure Knowledge-N-Wisdom Glad you got that all straightened out...270 cal is really .277" so add .001" as per requirements for good cast bullet shooting = the .278" sizer die, so if your barrel is spec, you will be in business. Now you will have to mike your sized bullets to see if they are indeed .278" after sizing...sometimes the sizing dies are off. If a little large - say .279" that's still OK, but if small, like .276", the die will have to be opened up with a sandpaper spinner. Have a great day, FC
What does powder coating a cast bullet do ?
Have a Noe 4 mold in 260 Robert's bullet 122 grain for my 257 air force Texan air rifle. Was going to size at 257 or 258. Maybe I don't need to size and go with 260 right from the gitgo.
Arturo Meuniot - Those air rifles can take hog size game. The rifle will shoot those 260s providing they chamber OK. If the accuracy is there, you are in business. Otherwise, you always have to option to size them. Good shootin' to ya, and Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays to ya..!! FC Steve
@@FortuneCookie45LC Really enjoy your videos. God bless you.
So if i have a .311 mold that drops at .312, add .02 for PC.is it ok to shoot in my micro groove marlin 30-30? At .314 ?
Edad Martin - If you use Eastwood powder coat, you coating will be thinner than .002" so you might wind up with .313" and that should be fine for your MG barrel (.314 might be fine also). If your bullets shoot well, then you will have figured out the size that works best. If not, you could always slug your barrel then add .001" for best cast bullet size. Good castin' to ya, FC
30-30 uses a standard .308 diameter bullet (jacketed)...I’m not sure it’s a good idea to run .006” oversized cast bullets. With microgroove, you need .002-.003 over. More than that and I’d be concerned about pressure.
I tried some of my own cast bullets sized and unsized (all powder coated). All worked fine in my ruger pistols (p95dc and lc9). But not in my buddies sigs (p226 and p365 sas) the unsized ones kept jamming when feeding in. The sized ones fed just fine.
so do you check the diameter of every bullet or just a sample of them?
+M G - Thanks for the good question - I originally check each bullet that drops from each cavity of my molds so I know the consistency. Then, when batches of cast bullets are cast, I measure a sample of them - if they are in the same range as my notes, we are good to go (my alloys are well standardized). If powder coating is done, then I measure a sample of batches and if sizing is determined necessary, then it is done. No need to check more than one bullet after sizing. Good reloadin' to ya, FC
Question... I am cheep, i have a .358 resizer and want to reload 9mm. can a .358 sized be used in 9mm gun without problems?????
I load 9mm bullets straight put of my lee mold that measure .360 at the big bottom base ring. They chamber with no issue as when they are pressed into the case the case sizes them to 0.358. Shoot the biggest bullet you can get to chamber on your gun
I think people will do what they are happy with, that some people cannot be "bothered" to size bullets due to the time factor says a lot about that person, to not size because you cant be bothered is a sloppy way to approach re loading, but, if you are only shooting a pistol at a steel target at 10 Yds, what does it matter, One thing is for sure, most cast bullets are not round as they come from a mould, I have rarely, if ever seen a perfectly round cast bullet, this is evident when you do size them, you will quickly see how round they were not, but, although the outside is now round, the lead within the lube grooves is still asymmetrical, which MUST, give an inbalance, to something doing the RPM of a bullet, that must make a difference, but not at 10 Yds, the only way to go is to swage your bullets, that way they are as near perfect as you can get them, one thing that has not been touched on is that in sizing, the hardness of the lead is changed due to working the lead. Good Shooting!
+Englishman French -- You've got the technical aspects down - sizing softens the driving bands a bit. There was an article from a noted writer many years ago (wished I saved those old articles, but who was to know there was going to be any future need for them?) that concluded that the best performance for cast bullets was if they could be shot without sizing. Shortly after that Richard Lee came out with his TL molds and tumble lube system integrated with his Factory Crimp Dies (the integration was never featured but should have been, but I looked into Richard Lee's thinking) We can do 90% of our shooting with cast bullets and 90% of that with TL bullets. But I did all the traditional stuff for so many years running my Lyman 450 sizer luber and then RCBS LAM2 until just a few years ago when I finally got my first TL mold - Now I'm shooting as many of those as my older traditional designs. I find that I cast 2K bullets per casting session, and if I don't have to spend time size-lubing them, I can spend that time reloading rounds instead...No disagreement from anyone that only the most perfect bullets shoot accurately from accurate guns - our benchrest shooting friends make that clear. They would not dream of using cast bullets ever - only the best match manufactured bullets for them and then precision loaded and shot from the squarest and best rifles that can be made. I'm looking for ammo that will put bullets where I call the shots at the distances that I can see standing on my own two feet. If I get that, I'm happy as a lark. And good shootin' to you as well, FC
I take a few and measure before I decide to size my cast bullets.
+Mr. Tolly (AKA: fatmantolly) -- Great policy - will work well for you... Best Regards, FC
Run a few hunderd bullets through a sizer, notice how they do not feel the same to get them through? Theres your answer. If they take different amounts of pressure, they will build up different amounts of pressure when fired.Whats your goal, accuracy or speed of loading?
SOME gun/bullet combos require sizing, some don't, the less you have to mess with your bullets the BETTER...
+Rob Aldridge -- You know what, Rob - you have put into the fewest words the exact way it is...bravo to you, sir -- the sizing controversy in a nutshell...!!! Fantastic... FC You should be quoted --
Wow pretty gun
Brian Meier - Thanks, Brian - N-frame Smith & Wesson are their flagship revolvers... Best Regards, FC
I've been casting Lee bullets for the .380acp and powder coating them .... I definitely need to size the bullets after coating them , because if I don't , I will get at least one bullet per magazine that will ram into the chamber and get stuck - with me not able to close the slide all the way or being able to rack the slide back - a very frustrating thing when dealing with a live round . This is happening on both my .380's , which are 2 different brand guns . But if I run the coated Lee cast bullets through a .356 sizer before assembling the rounds , they will cycle like butter .... .380acp guns are so tiny and tolerances so tight that I find that I really have to use the sizer after powder coating the Lee cast lead bullets or else I will have nasty jamming problems when I shoot . These cast bullets shoot great and accurately in a .380acp ... I am currently smacking an 8 inch plate 30 yards away with my mouse guns and that's more accuracy then I ever expected .
dfeodosia - Good point on sizing to give functioning in autopistols. You probably could have made those unsized bullets work by seating deeper, but that is not good policy - Your solution of sizing was the best course. For revolvers, if the rounds don't chamber, we need to size the bullets...Or sizing can always be done because the shooter / reloader simply desires to do so...no explanations are required. And the 380 is not a pipsqueak...it will do the job if we do ours. Continued good shootin' to ya, FC
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it's whatever works and what you are comfortable with. me I don't mind the effort but I also sleep better at night because I used to and occasionally still do have nightmares of 100lb trigger pulls and rnds that miss their mark and hit bystanders. I ask any one if they are confident that if they walked into the home and found a bad guy holding their wife close at gun point could they make the shot if needed, I am because I make sure every rnd I load for that purpose won't go wild unless I am the cause. I am not scared of change to much not to try TL bullets unsized and who knows maybe I will be sold but as I see every trip to my local range most people wouldn't even think about taking a shot like that because of the amount of flyers they get. I watched a guy who was also a law enforcement officer lol send high grade speer gold dots all over the target even missing the backer at one point(I'm sure it was mostly him), that makes me uncomfortable to no end. while I'm sure the tolerances are within range for a good consistent hand rolled rnd I would still size my defensive ammunition which increasingly is cast bullets. carrying cast bullets makes me feel rustic, like some sort of modern day cowboy XD.
+Andrew James -- You have brought up a very important point - confidence in your gun/load combination. "OK, I qualified" But with two alibis and minimum score - does that make a confident officer in the field? It should definitely not. Effective gun / load is paramount - able to stand up to the bad guys. Gun reliability is paramount. Center of mass is paramount - to avoid stray rounds. HP ammo is paramount to prevent overpenetration. These things breed confidence. But you have ratcheted it up to another level - the precision shot (also requires a precision shooter). The local law enforcement agencies in our metropolitan area only use the best factory ammunition for duty and some use lower cost identical ballistic loads for training. One time an officer came to the range with five boxes of premium ammo that he just checked out from his department and shot it all. Brand new premium brass and five empty boxes were picked up by our range regulars that day...With all the political flak over officer shootings, I would hate to see how the use of non-regulation ammo could be defended in the civil actions that would no doubt follow... Perhaps your department does not have those concerns...but hereabouts modern day cowboys as you say, have not been seen since the days of Dirty Harry Callahan... Best Regards to ya, FC
+FortuneCookie45LC we have plenty of cowboys where im from lol. one was just transfered to your home state, a mr. walnut. he thinks he has the right to do whatever he wants and treat regular law abiding citizens like gang bangers. plus he was known for cracking heads and after me and others complained about his nonhuman way of doing things he was transfered to where cowboy cop heaven.
by the way ive perfected the powder coat and would like to thank you for the tips, my rounds are as accurate as i can possibly be and cheap. i think with S&B primers, titegroup and wheel weights i was able to load 1,000 premium, very good looking 9mm rounds for around $30-35 including hazard fee!
+Andrew James -- Your friend sounds a lot like Pappy Boyington of Black Sheep Corsair Squadron fame. Pappy couldn't make it in peacetime, but in war - his exploits are the stuff of legend. Your friend (or acquintance) could also be one of the rugged individualists that held the ground at the Alamo for the freedom of Texas. But I'd hate to be on the wrong side of him in a bar, and I would definitely be staying out of his way anywhere. You can see him coming from afar like a Grizzly b'ar... FC
FC45 is the man..
Good ol' trial and error and practicality wins again against speculation and traditionalism. I found that sizing my 45-70 bullets to .458 for my 1895 Marlin causes them to keyhole and lead up the bore every time. My gun likes 'em dropped straight out of the mold at .460 and they are accurate as can be.
DenverLoveless - Thanks for posting. I found the same in my Marlin 1894 44 mag with the micro groove barrel - regular .430s keyhole at 15 yards. But if .433 bullets are fired, the gun shoots one hole groups...Fortunately, I can easily get .433" bullets by powder coating my bullets. Have a great day, FC
FortuneCookie45LC Thank you for all the cool info you share. I need to get a vibrating tumbler to do the powder coat thing. Just an afterthought, I was wondering if a rock polisher would work. What do you think?
DenverLoveless - If the rock polisher is a metal drum, might not work - we need a plastic drum on the vibrator tumbler to get the static charges on the bullets to stick the powder. My Lyman Turbo Tumbler works real well. Best to ya, FC
FortuneCookie45LC Harbor Freight rubber 2 drum rock polisher. I use it to wet tumble my brass. I'll let ya know if it works. My powder coat hasn't arrived yet.
DenverLoveless - Another perfect example of Marlin Micro Groove barrels needing bigger bullets... Thanks for sharing... Best to ya, FC
No controversy for me. I don’t care if they will “work” or not unsized. Mine will be the same size.
Isn't it amazing how far "The Federation" has fallen? It's been taken over by Globalists (it probably always was their platform and I didn't see it until recent more obvious events). But I still love the classic Trek.
I say size them unless you are the perfect bullet caster..
When Lee says to size your bullets for uniform pressures and accuracy.. look over this article of John Taffin of American Handgunner... americanhandgunner.com/bullet-sizing/
Tom Lodge - John Taffin is one of the most respected authorities on shooting there is...But in this short article, he goes into the importance of the cylinder throats and the uselessness (most of the time) in slugging revolver barrels (slugging auto pistol barrels is a very good idea unless the gun shoots fine with cast and jacketed bullets - in that case, why bother?) However, if I can reply to what John Taffin is saying - he says revolver bullets, if started out too small, will "slug up" to the cylinder throat size. What John fails to mention is that the powder gases are much faster than the bullet. Before the bullet can slug up to fill the cylinder throats, the gases will gas cut the bullet and cause leading in the first 1 1/2" of the barrel and the forcing cone. This leading will worsen every shot down the barrel and quickly degrade accuracy. It is debatable that only a slightly small bullet can slug up to fill the chamber throats...if bullet is as small as his .003 smaller example ( .451 bullet slugging up to fill .454 chamber throats), it is doubtful they can slug up to that degree...He concludes that it is better to have the bullet .454 already so it doesn't have to slug up. In my studies, the best conclusion is to have cast bullets .001 bigger than the cylinder throats to begin with so they have to "swage down" the .001" and therefore assure obturation of those gases so the gas cutting never occurs...I have full videos explaining all of this including How Bullets Work in Our Handguns...you might watch that and then compare with what John Taffin is saying and draw your own conclusions...There remains a controversy out there...you will still hear some very highly regarded shooters still recommending slugging revolver barrels and then using bullets .001 bigger than the groove diameters... Both John and I would disagree but in some revolver setups, that does make sense further adding to the confusion and controversy. I have videos on that also that show in most cases, that makes no sense at all. Best to ya, FC
Hi FC...
In my OPINION, given what little I know, I agree with you in that if you want accuracy, the course that should be employed would be to slug the chamber. and if necessary ream cylinders to bring them to spec.
Now I have a question. You suggest sizing the bullet with the cylinder. Doesn't this, when loading, at best bring bullet and case into concentricity, if that is the proper word for it ?
Tom Lodge - Sizing a bullet means to reduce the bullet to a desired size by forcing it through a specified die. The best sizer is our gun whether it is the cylinder throat of a revolver or the barrel of an auto pistol. Any variations in pressure caused by that are engineered into the revolver or auto pistol system and it all works for shorter range shooting say 35 yards and in. Concentricity is not a function of the proper sizing of a bullet in relation to the cylinder throat (optimal is +.001"), but rather the concentric seating of the bullet during the reloading as well as the concentricity of each chamber of the cylinder. As for the reaming of any revolver cylinder, first see if the gun shoots accurately. If so, nothing needs to be done other than to measure the cylinder throats. Best to ya, FC
Taste great less filling know that’s funny fortune cookie that’s funny I like it 😀😀😀😂
WB -- Great, Willie... Have a great day, FC Steve
There is no such thing as "accurate enough for steel" there is only accurate.
Ross Seymour - That's a good distinction - ammo that shoots 4" groups are not what we want for any purpose... Best to ya, FC
So much ammo 🤑🤑🤑🤑😲😲😲😲
This video is a snake eating it's own tail
Don't size
Well, when I size them, some seem to be stiffer than others going through. That is all I need to know. Yes, they all need sizing for more accuracy. The imperfection of the powder coating is forced smooth as well.
Controvery? Lol swing and a miss
For me. size them, and rest assured they will work.