I've used a similar version to the ribs/liver several times with great success . I think critics often forget , that many of the techniques in the old styles aren't meant for mutual combat where 2 people agree to fight then square up. They are for self defense . You are trying to take the advantage of surprise , upset you opponents balance and structure and overwhelm them until they can't fight. You have a small window in time , at very close range , to achieve this . After that NOW you have to fight and so you switch to different tools . The times I used it was to get people out of my face . There's no wind up or tell, you just snap it and they never see it coming . You just hear that unique " thump" of a great body shot and the following short grunt and dooooooown they go
Interesting. The couple techniques that you show starting at around 09:08 where you parry and strike with the same hand while evading to the side were taught almost exactly the same to me when I used to be a competitive boxer, except that we used a punch counter instead of a koken (obviously). They were called “reaction punches” and are very effective if timed correctly. Great stuff
For those who arent into the grappling styles Id mention that wrist grabs are 100% a real thing both from trained and untrained people. Trained people use all kinds of grips to set up throws and takedowns, one of those grips is wrist control. Even untrained people understand that controlling someones wrist makes it harder to punch and when you add potential weapons into the equation it becomes not just intuitive or logical but necessary (which is where _some_ of the Aikido stuff starts to make actual sense). So, yea, its a real thing- dont write it off!
I'd say like 99% as practitioners don't know how to strike with the one knuckle fists properly, so they all give them some sort of grinding application. And yes, they are striking weapons and if done properly, they need very little to no conditioning.
Osu! Great discussion as always. I remember back in the late 80's when I was a young shodan, going through a period where I was experimenting with using techniques from kata during jiyu kumite. I found koken and shotei were particularly effective for blocking for all the reasons you mentioned and yes could also be used effectively for strikes. I smiled when you mentioned BJJ at the end as people I have rolled with have had difficulty grabbing or maintaining a grip on my wrists from the beginning. Not surprising as that was a part of my Kyokushin training from the time I was a white belt. Osu!
OSU Shihan! Thank you for another excellent lesson. I remember that in the lesson on the makwiara training you did not present koken conditioning. Would you also recommend include koken to the hand conditionig? OSU!
Not against a makiwara or tree. I don't think it is necessary. Against a heavy bag, however, I think is a good idea. That way you get a good feel of what the koken strike should feel like.
I’m a martial artist I firmly believe hitting or taking impact of any kind with joints is a bad idea always use bone when you do a downward elbow your hitting with bone but it’s still a joint the difference is hitting with your wrist if your even slightly off you will dislocate your wrist but that doesn’t happen with elbow strikes because your muscles and bones in your elbow are a very strong along with the shock dispersing through your bones but the wrist isn’t biologically designed to be super durable when you hit with your wrist the impact goes straight through the joint that’s not a good idea
You're 100% right. Karate is primitive and stays woefully in a rose colored glasses past. Not to say it doesnt have value, But in reality karate was never truly viable in a global sense at any point in history. with that said. There is something about these strange strikes that deserves some re-evaluation. Martial arts is not yet "mapped out"
That's a fairly broad statement and although I see your point, I would add that there are a LOT of guys with karate backgrounds, especially from Kyokushin and Shotokan, who have done very well in MMA, Muay Thai, kickboxing. Of course they have to adapt to the rules, but there are plenty of guys doing well. And I would add that outside of sporting competition, which is what we usually think of because it is most visible, in the ranks of very high level security, bodyguarding and so on, there is a VERY high percent of guys from a karate background.
Possibly to the first half of your comment. The second half is not related. Even with a good koken, you may or may not get spanked. It's not the koken that determines that, I would guess. :)
I've used a similar version to the ribs/liver several times with great success . I think critics often forget , that many of the techniques in the old styles aren't meant for mutual combat where 2 people agree to fight then square up. They are for self defense . You are trying to take the advantage of surprise , upset you opponents balance and structure and overwhelm them until they can't fight. You have a small window in time , at very close range , to achieve this . After that NOW you have to fight and so you switch to different tools . The times I used it was to get people out of my face . There's no wind up or tell, you just snap it and they never see it coming . You just hear that unique " thump" of a great body shot and the following short grunt and dooooooown they go
Interesting. The couple techniques that you show starting at around 09:08 where you parry and strike with the same hand while evading to the side were taught almost exactly the same to me when I used to be a competitive boxer, except that we used a punch counter instead of a koken (obviously). They were called “reaction punches” and are very effective if timed correctly. Great stuff
That's interesting indeed. Good to know. Thanks!
For those who arent into the grappling styles Id mention that wrist grabs are 100% a real thing both from trained and untrained people. Trained people use all kinds of grips to set up throws and takedowns, one of those grips is wrist control.
Even untrained people understand that controlling someones wrist makes it harder to punch and when you add potential weapons into the equation it becomes not just intuitive or logical but necessary (which is where _some_ of the Aikido stuff starts to make actual sense). So, yea, its a real thing- dont write it off!
I'd say like 99% as practitioners don't know how to strike with the one knuckle fists properly, so they all give them some sort of grinding application. And yes, they are striking weapons and if done properly, they need very little to no conditioning.
Single whip in taichi/CMA. Great analysis
Osu! Great discussion as always. I remember back in the late 80's when I was a young shodan, going through a period where I was experimenting with using techniques from kata during jiyu kumite. I found koken and shotei were particularly effective for blocking for all the reasons you mentioned and yes could also be used effectively for strikes.
I smiled when you mentioned BJJ at the end as people I have rolled with have had difficulty grabbing or maintaining a grip on my wrists from the beginning. Not surprising as that was a part of my Kyokushin training from the time I was a white belt. Osu!
OSU SHIHAN Cameron many thanks for sharing the position of the fingers in koken a interesting subject this week OSU
Osu,thank you Shihan and Mitch. Thanks particularly for the presentation of tip/root of the finger.
Osu..You are a nice guy
Excellent vid. Koken strike upwards under the opponent’s chin seems like it would be an effective technique.
Grazie Shihan per le stupende lezioni e le citazioni , Bruno Senpai osu!
OSU Shihan, very good information. This was something I try to teach my students
Love these drills! thanks for sharing.
Very informative & interesting. Wonderful to see & hear different perspectives on the strike. Thank you
This was amazing to watch, so thank you :)
Great breakdown
OSU Shihan! Thank you for another excellent lesson. I remember that in the lesson on the makwiara training you did not present koken conditioning. Would you also recommend include koken to the hand conditionig? OSU!
Not against a makiwara or tree. I don't think it is necessary. Against a heavy bag, however, I think is a good idea. That way you get a good feel of what the koken strike should feel like.
@@BudoTraining OSU!
What is the name of this kata you speak of?
Tensho?
14:30 looks like whing thung ?
Probably more similar than different for sure.
Subbed.
Paint the fence
Yes indeed. Wax on! :)
I’m a martial artist I firmly believe hitting or taking impact of any kind with joints is a bad idea always use bone
when you do a downward elbow your hitting with bone but it’s still a joint the difference is hitting with your wrist if your even slightly off you will dislocate your wrist but that doesn’t happen with elbow strikes because your muscles and bones in your elbow are a very strong along with the shock dispersing through your bones but the wrist isn’t biologically designed to be super durable when you hit with your wrist the impact goes straight through the joint that’s not a good idea
You're 100% right. Karate is primitive and stays woefully in a rose colored glasses past. Not to say it doesnt have value, But in reality karate was never truly viable in a global sense at any point in history.
with that said. There is something about these strange strikes that deserves some re-evaluation. Martial arts is not yet "mapped out"
Koken strikes with the arm bones and the are conditioned like kento.
In Kung Fu there are several training equipment to conditioning this weapon
@@Karylrx there is no evidence or scientific study proving bone conditioning to work.
That's what makes koken strong: it is all bone.
That's a fairly broad statement and although I see your point, I would add that there are a LOT of guys with karate backgrounds, especially from Kyokushin and Shotokan, who have done very well in MMA, Muay Thai, kickboxing. Of course they have to adapt to the rules, but there are plenty of guys doing well. And I would add that outside of sporting competition, which is what we usually think of because it is most visible, in the ranks of very high level security, bodyguarding and so on, there is a VERY high percent of guys from a karate background.
miss by just a wee skosh and you will be nursing that wrist for weeks ANd you will get yer ass kicked.
Possibly to the first half of your comment. The second half is not related. Even with a good koken, you may or may not get spanked. It's not the koken that determines that, I would guess. :)
🎉OSU !!! Shihan 👊