I think I explained bi-amping very clearly. NO extra parts (including crossovers) are needed. To bi-amp your present speakers all you need is: A speaker with double binding posts, two pairs of speaker cables, two identical stereo amps (or a receiver with bi-amp capability). THAT'S IT!! Of course, you can make it more complicated, but that wasn't what I set out to do. You don’t have to take my word for it about bi-amping, read the comments from viewers who are doing it! As I described in the video!
I'm about to try my hand at bi amping I'm making a set of speakers for it a wmtm out of live edge Walnut slabs and see for myself what this is going to sound like
Hi Steve, when you mentioned that some AVRs can be used to bi amp loudspeakers with dual binding posts, I dug out the manual for my Marantz SR. 7005 and read the bit about bi amping. I got myself two lengths of 14 AWG speaker cable and eight banana plugs and did the job. The sound was excellent before and now it is amazing. One thing to bear in mind is to allow the amp to settle with extra load of cables plus burning by playing music (Stereo plus sub, with bass management off) for a couple or so hours.Thank you, Steve. Many thanks, friend. Cheers.
As I stated in my original comment, "I was disappointed", for the reasons stated. I never disputed the merits of bi-wiring. I didn't yell or use exclamation points, I just respectfully stated my opinion. In re-reading my comment and evaluating the tenor of the content, I standby my statement.
Steve, thank you so much for this video, I've learned so much from you. Just tried this Vertical Bi-amp with 2X 829B Class-A Tube Amps, 12WX4 into my older Polk RTi8s. it was an amazing audio experience, punchy & speedy bass, clear & thick Mid, crispy high. I can't go back to my Bi-wired Cambridge setup anymore.
I am bi-amping with my Pioneer VSX-935 receiver and Klipsch F-300 speakers. The receiver does have a bi-amp setting. 12 gauge wire is being used from each channel to power the speakers. I don't have fancy equipment to take measurements, but the difference is astounding! It does sound to me that there is more wattage, but that's just my perception, I'm sure. There is definitely more punchy sound with less distortion. The bass and treble are definitely clearer, with more dynamic range.
Steve, great explanation of bi - amping. I'm currently using a Marantz SR5007 av receiver to bi - amp a pair of Mission MX3s. I found the difference was amazing. The soundstage opened up by leaps and bounds, with fuller, tighter base and much more detailed highs and midrange. Never going back again.
Bi-amping can be the tone controls that all super high end gear don't have. Some might say that you don't need it, but you need it if you play music at different volume because of the loudness effect. If you buy two 2-channel switch and some resistors you can then change the balance between the drivers. If the crossover point is two high you need to add a cap plus an extra resistor on the bass output, in other create a 1st order lowpass filter that lower just everything above let's say 400 Hz. Please be aware of phase between woofer and tweeter at the crossover frequency. I don't believe in deep bass for audio but rather a lot of push in the 80-300 Hz region that makes the speakers sound dynamic. I mainly listen to 6/7ts music where this spectrum is important. More modern music has a lot more focus on deeper bass and then there is a completely thing, but this way to handle the loudness effect is still possible. Most music started to sound crap when they replaced the Altec 604 speakers (just bought a pair cheap) and started with more modern digital production.
I bi-amplified my Tannoy XT8F's and was impressed with the improvement. Cleaner, faster bass, far better mid and treble fine detail. Also improved sound stage width and depth with holographic imaging. On some recordings I hear sounds coming from the side of my listening position which makes me jump.
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay I'm using two dual monaural lateral power mosfet, dc coupled power amplifiers. Each channel has it's own 625VA toroidal power supply and uses four Exicon lateral power mosfets fed from a split 80-0-80 volt supply. I designed and built the power amplifiers a few years ago. I'm using four Gale OFC 2.5mm speaker cables which are each 2m long. I designed the power amplifiers to have a voltage gain of 22 so I can drive them directly from my Topping dac. I operate the dac in pre-amp mode using the remote control to adjust the volume. The 2 volts RMS output from the dac will drive the power amplifiers to 44 volts RMS output which equates to to 244 watts into 8 ohms. Obviously I never run anywhere near full output power. I only use a maximum of 10% of the available power in order to prevent clipping on transients.
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay Here is a link to photo's of one of my power amplifiers on posting 6902: www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/96192-post-solid-pics-691.html My previous posting on here stated a split supply of 80-0-80 volts which is 160 volts with a 0 volt centre. Full power unclipped sinewave at 1KHz into 8 ohms is 272 Watts per channel and 450 Watts per channel into 4 ohms. Tannoy speakers work best with high damping factor solid state amplifiers and mosfet power amplifiers are wide bandwidth, high slew rate and high damping factor. Bass reflex loaded speakers rely on amplifier damping factor to damp the bass cones apart from around the frequency where the port operates. Around 20 years ago I designed an improved crossover for the Tannoy HPD 385 and 3828 drivers which has been copied by many people world wide who were very pleased with the improvement. I therefore do know Tannoy's very well indeed.
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay Send me photo's of amplifiers you have designed and built which you consider far better than mine. You obviously consider my engineering to be poor and I'm sorry you think that. My amplifiers are flat out to 60KHz. My power output claims are based upon my own measurements using an 8 ohm load, an oscilloscope and a true RMS reading digital volt meter. Driving both channels makes no difference to the output power because each amplifier channel has it's own separate 625 VA power supply. My power amplifiers are flat within 0.1dB to 60KHz. Regarding the older Tannoys, even Steve has listened to them and correctly stated that they don't have the fine detail of modern speakers. I look forward to seeing your designs to prove that my designs are so poor.
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay Ask Steve regarding what amplifier he used to listen to the older Tannoy....and I worked for Radford audio back in the mid 1970's. Have a nice day chum.
Steve, you’re the best! Thanks for making the two channel listening topic interesting for so long. Although, lots of esoteric types of amps exist in the marketplace, biamping is the perfect job for an Av amp. I used the biamp function on my marantz sr8015 and it improved my Cornwall IV speakers immensely. Imperceptible difference between the marantz sr8015 and much much more expensive mono block amps. Lastly, great integrated av relievers are a fraction of the cost of dedicated two channel amps.
Thanks for showing the ins and outs on this subject. I'm a big fan of the bi amp camp. I'm currently doing this on my Vandersteen 2ci with amazing results. I use a Sony Ta-n 9000 ES for the amp and its perfect. I had Definitive Technology set up on it but prefer stereo. I was watching a movie the other day and would've sworn I'd been dosed, the soundstage was stunning, with an almost holographic sound. The bi amp is worth the investment of extra cables if you have a surround system to adapt. Keep up the good work Steve.
Hey Steve, I watched a few youtube vids on bi amping, mostly from curmudgeons like PS Audio and GR Research who were of the opinion that it doesn't help. Then I checked out your video and man I was excited to try it. My new Klipsch RP-8000Fs were not sounding great to with my home theater Onkyo TX NR6050. I was hoping that bi amping might help. It made a huge difference and turned around feelings of buyers remorse. the Klipschs' sounded much more lively and... IDK... higher resolution. There is a bi-amping setting on the onkyo, some added speaker wires and presto. I don't know what is under the hood of the Onkyo but this change made a difference. Thanks for the inspiration
A couple of years ago, at the recommendation of the folks at The Stereo Shop in Hartford, CT, I bi-amped the amazing Bowers & Wilkins 805D3s I bought from them (bought on your recommendation) using my Sony AV receiver (also bought on your recommendation). Absolutely astounding sound, both for music and film/TV. The bi-amping really made an incredible difference.
I biamped my Klipsch RP280F with my Onkyo TX-NR797, I was so surprised ! By bypassing the crossover networks it improved the depth and clarity of every instrument and vocal heard. A crossover network is a compromise in filtering frequencies it can muddle and separate signals better quality components can help this, but letting the amps do this removes the need for this compromise and can wake up a dead spot in a crossover and allow an elegant design in a speaker shine!
I built one Amp Camp Amp and loved it. Then I build a second and tried bi-amping them. My premise was that damping factor was a more important limit in my listening than the limited power deliver from the little amps. When not bi-amped, the woofers dominated the amps and the amp's ability to control the tweeter suffered. That affected all the spatial cues that come with high frequency clarity. It worked a treat, and I've stuck with bi-amping ever sense. I'm now running two sources into a pair of DIY B1 Korg pre-amps, tuned a little differently - super clear for the base and a bit more 2nd harmonic for the highs. The clear one drives an F5 clone and then my Forte woofers. The "Warmer" one drives and F6 clone and my Forte mid and tweeter horns. I've never looked back. Damping factor is a spec that is probably too little understood in HiFi.
I had an older NAD integrated amp that had A & B speaker terminals and the switch was A or B or A and B at the same time. I bi-amped a set of speakers and it was just as you described it. The sound had more Umph to it, more body. Which makes sense because instead of splitting the power rating between the woofer and the tweeter each got full power.
So you had no trouble with A+B whatsoever? I happen to own a stereo power amp with the same speaker choices (A, B, A+B), and at the rear the A+B option states 8 to 16 ohms, whereas my speakers are 6 ohms. What does your amp states at the rear, and what's the impedance of your speakers?
@@enowilson I had no problems, my amp had a switch for either 8 or 4 ohms so I had it set to 8 ohms and my speakers were rated 8 obms also. I would check with the manufacturer of your amp to see if or what you could do as I’m not sure. I know a lot of the newer amps don’t specify 6 ohm but you can power 6 ohm speakers with them. Sorry I couldn’t be more helpful.
There's no questions that bi-amping will yield an improvement in clarity, richness, and tone. Even using a HT receiver that has extra surround channels that can be used for bi-amp, will deliver impressive results. I was amazed when I first tried this, and even though doing this limited my HT receiver from a 7.1 down to a 5.1, I could not bring myself to change it back afterwards. The front sound-stage just sounds too rich, too glorious, to give it up.
A lot of the improvement is splitting the hi-pass and low-pass filter plus load apart. Now each amp only sees one of the filters plus load. Greatly reduces the weirdness of the reactive loads during transients.
It looks like Steve did a horizontal bi-amp configuration. I've been running my Dyna/VTA ST-70s vertically bi-amped per Bob Latino's suggestion for the past year. The result is wonderfully improved separation, clarity, soundstage, and dynamics. Tonal balance is roughly the same, so it still sounds like the same system, but many other aspects are simply better, bigger, more involving. This setup uses two identical stereo amps...one amp on each side that work like 2 channel mono blocks. The stereo signal from the preamp gets split to left and right sides like normal, but the amp inputs on each side share that signal, then one output channel feeds the woofer, and the other channel feeds the mid/highs, with the passive crossovers separating that output (active crossovers could also be used between the preamp and amps but are optional if your speakers already have passive crossovers and dual binding posts). This dedicates one channel to the tougher task of driving the woofers, while the remaining channel has the simpler task of driver the mids/highs, which improves clarity. In this setup each amp's power supply only has responsibility for one woofer, vs two with a standard stereo setup. I use matched EL34s/6CA7s per channel, but this setup allows use of different brands (or even different compatible tube types) on each channel....just do the same for each amp. I use tubes that have tighter bass on the woofer, and different tubes that have better mids/highs for the other output, so the sound can be more tailored more to your liking. I do have a powered sub that augments the lowest octave, which I keep turned down to hardly noticeable with the low pass crossover frequency at the lowest setting of 40hz. www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring/HorizontalvsVertical.jpg/image
Anyway i watched this to learn and i bi amped my psb towers from my Yamaha rx v575 not only that it made me pay attention to what my receiver can do.OMG what a difference.The sound is so much warmer.i only tried the front psb but now im thinking of trying it on my bower and wilkins 620s
I did this recently using my Cambridge audio Azur 650r on my PSB Imagine T2 and boy did it wake up my T2's! Doing this provided more dynamics and transparency. Plus it allows you to experiment with different speaker cables for the top or the bottom. My current setup is using second generation Kimber Kable 8tc for the bottom end and 4tc for the top end result, perfection to my ears!
Steve, thanks for the input. I'm having great results bi-amping Q Acoustics 3050's with Iota VX stack (pa3 and sa3). The Iota's were good in mono mode, but more presence and power in bi amp configuration. Better mains cables didn't hurt either. I can validate your experience.
Have a Marantz SR6007. Just purchased Klipsch Heresy IVs (thanks for your review) a month ago. BiAmped today. So far seems a bit more open plus cymbal decay was clear and long. Have an evening of deep listening. Thanks!!
Vandersteen speakers, model "Quatro" and up, are all bi-amped, via external high-pass passive filters. The high-pass filter reduces the bass frequencies by 6 decibels (I believe), and compensates for that reduction via the amps that power the woofers. The midrange and higher frequencies are passed through "as is". The advantage to the above design is that the amps that power the top section of the speakers (where your ears are most discerning)... those amps have far less bass content to deal with (and it is the bass frequencies that put the most stress on amps). So your amps that are dedicated to the mids and highs are relieved of dealing with difficult bass frequencies (not completely, but to a large degree), allowing them to more efficiently, more correctly, and more musically power the range of sound that you hear the best. The speakers are designed to reverse the -6db bass that is going to the woofers, leaving your bass section sounding neutral and correct. As an aside, the Quatros and up do their own version of DSP, with the bass. When set-up professionally, with sound pressure level meters, it does a wondrous job of compensating for bass issues that are inherent to 99% of listening rooms. It is not a substitute for room treatments. It is a compliment to room treatments, and can do its job independently of room treatments (although room treatments are still beneficial, and significantly so).
I have been bi-amping for a decade and can't imagine not doing it with my current and past speakers. I had Paradigm Monitor 9s Mk 3 and they really responded well to a division of power to the bass and mid drivers and another amp dedicated to the tweeter. I pushed them with a NAD 916 with Power Envelope technology. The NAD 916 is a early surround amplifier. It has three separate 30W amps in one chassis. These are also bridgeable. I had two amps bridged for the bass/mid giving 65W (instantaneous peaks of 90W) and 30W for the highs (peaks of 45W). Sounded great with proper placement- pull out from wall and toe in. Recently I have leveled up to Klipsch La Scalas- Got a super deal on some demo models. I did the same amp set up-Bridged amps to the Bass unit and separate power to the mids and high horns. Klipsch horns are just magic and this scheme of powering them with dedicated amps yields stunning results. aggressive
This is all very interesting. A few months ago I decided to experiment with bi-amping. I thought why stop at two amplifiers? To cut a long story short I bought four Chinese Nobsound mono amplifiers and a two way Linkwitz Riley electronic crossover pre-set at 2800hz cut off for the bass units.. I connected the whole lot up using splitter cables from the crossover to the amps. The result is amazing! I use an ancient Cambridge Audio Azur 640c and and equally ancient set of much underestimated Sony SS 176E speakers ( jumpers removed) all coupled with cheap but good quality interconnects and cables. I have to say that the system sounds as good as many of the ''high end'' setups that some of my more affluent friends posses. They begrudgingly agree with me and one of them so far, has bought the same units for their second system. Everything was bought from eBay and cost less than £200. Would gladly send pictures for your next feature on watchers systems if you wish.
@@maxgeronimo3720 Hi I am using the cheap ones! and they are perfect but not very loud. Nobsound Mini Mono Channel Digital Amplifier HiFi Class D Desktop Audio Amp 100W
Steve I have Biamped several times in my 57 year audio journey with no success then i used amps with volume control then came great success . I have split La Scalas all drivers physically time aligned .I have a 4 watt triode tube amp on top end and 35 watt solid state A/B on bottom end.I have the magic of tubes top end and the slam of solid state bottom end. The sound stage is deep and wide. Imaging each instrument has its own place and you can tell where the singer is standing.The final piece to the sound was a edgarhorn subwoofer not just adding the last note in bass but I was surprised how it added ambience and made the lower register instruments bloom.Pre covid I went to about 40 blues and jazz shows a year with well controlled acoustics . I wanted my system to rival a live show. Part of the fun is the experimentation getting there.
Do you find that dimming the lights almost all the way helps to clarify the 3D soundstage? That is my experience. They say that blind people can hear slightly better, and I believe it.
great comment. i also miss going out and hearing music at a big scale regularly. covid has made my home system way more important to me. it's a luxury i'm really lucky to have, because it seems to make my brain a lot happier and better-adjusted if i get to listen to my system a couple times a week :)
So did I. 4 x JBL 4320, on Nakamichi pa7. To top end is anything from Rogers LS3/5a to Celestion SL7, again, driven as two ways by two stereo amp, or one stereo amp driving the pair. It depends.
I did it a year ago with my klf30 and 2 amplifiers Rotel, one 200 wpc to woofers and the other 125 wpc to mid and tweeters and sounds amazing, nothing like before, I am so glad and happy, the power feels at low volume, do it bros you will be very happy with results
OF COURSE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!! I have tried 3 different bi-amping combinations with my pair of Klipsch 280 RP-280F (not high end gear unfortunately but always very common pedestrian amplifiers) and the common factor has always been the preamp (NAD C165BEE) which has two outputs and, even better, it has a knob to lower one of those outputs down to -12dB versus the other output so that you can perfectly balance your amplifiers. The combinations I have used: a) Gemtune GS-02 KT88 valve amp for HF Harman Kardon AVR2600 for LF b) Gemtune GS-01 LE34 valve amp for HF Gemtune GS-02 valve amp for LF c) Gemtune GS-02 valve amp for HF Rotel RB-1050 amp for LF Everytime, the sense of a larger soundstage has been evident (very evident) but, everytime, at the moment of pumping the volume up (85dB and more at 9 ft from the speakers) the problems start with gritty sound and distorted midrange; listening at contained volume has always been a real pleasure. I guess I need to look two amps of better quality...
I bi amped my stereo this morning, it's been a listening pleasure can't pull myself away from my system, dimension and detail is incredible, AR pre Mac 225 and solid state Hafler to B&W 803s it's gonna stay this way for a while.🙃
As an electronics tech I thank you for this video....should have enough work the rest of the year fixing all the blown up amplifiers we will now get to service.
Bi-amping is great. I have a Bryston 4b SST on my 15 inch Celestion woofers and a Rotel RMB-1075 (only 2 channels are being used) on the midrange (Visaton 2 inch dome) and tweeter (Audax) with a Rotel 1070 preamplifier with a double output. This is not the best of preamps , but it drives both amps with no problems.
Bi-amping my system is the only change I've made that revealed a DYNAMIC difference. Magic wire, over priced separate components and all of the other 'tricks' I've experimented were in my imagination. When speakers are bi-amped they 'float' in the air. They are not more detailed; they don't have a larger sound stage, they have no more heft. What they do is float effortlessly. There is no constraint between drivers. Instruments do not fight for space in the mix. Holographic spacing. One caution: the speakers I biamped were Tannoy studio monitors which are meant to be bi-amped so the cross over is specifically designed for this signal path. When you biamp you are still using the internal cross over of the system. They only difference is you do not get the interference between multiple driver loads.
I do vertical Bi-Amping since i have finished my JBL 4341-Clones in 2018, which are built for 4way reproduction of the sound. the right side of each power-amp goes to the subwoofer, and the left side drives the rest of the 4 Drivers as are mid-range, mid-bass, and tweeter! The power-amps are from Chorea, DYNAVOX, and deliver 60Watt/Ch, so I feed 120Watts into each speaker! The Preamp is a Tube-Preamp, also from DYNAVOX, and connects with two Y-interconnect-Cables. My experience? 1.Class from the first second on! It sounds great, dynamics are awesome, and I am really proud of what I have achieved with so little money! The amplifiers were an amazon-warehouse deal, and I just paid 150,- Euro per Power-amp, and the tube Preamp (with included phono stage) went over to me at about 180,- Euro! Altogether, with interconnects just 500,- Euro! lol...And the sound is grown up! Tube Preamp Dynavox TPR3 and Poweramps Class A/B, DYNAVOX ET100 can be found easily on Amazon, and they have pretty good critics! For me, they sound like the big stage of music, just as I wanted them to do...
The quest to squeeze every ounce of improvement is intrinsic to any audio enthusiast and last year I tried bi-amping using two Chinese hybrid amps that I thought were overachievers considering I got them for less than $200 a piece bnew. I also got a Pass inspired 20W class A solid state power amp so I think its easy to predict what combinations I tried. My results, same with Steve, is that bi-amping with the same identical amps work best but only if its done horizontally as he did. Vertical bi-amping i.e. using Amp A to drive one speaker while Amp B drives the other for some reason wasn't as "coherent" or as musical as horizontal bi-amping. I'm sure an engineer can better explain the reason/s. Could be higher IMD in vertical b-a perhaps. In using solid state+tube to drive LF+HF gave bad results as Steve's when he used Schiit and Zen together. The hardware difference is really audible which results in what I'd call a "mermaid effect". The halves are audibly incongruous. Hope this helps.
I have a pair of Electro-Voice interface D speakers with C/D Interface equalizer (required for these speakers), which then feed a Dalquist DQ-LP1 low pass filter, which in turn sends high and low pass signals to two BEL 1001 MKIV amplifiers. The difference in my bi amp setup is I have the amplifiers next to each speakers, so each amp channel gets a high and low signal (instead of segregating high and low signal between amps). The resulting sound matches your results, but to my ears this is the best sound I have had in my listening room thus far. All this is fed from an Audible illusions M3A preamp, but I have also had the similar results with an old Pioneer silver series C-21 preamp. I experimented with with various speaker amp combinations, some bi-amped or bi-wired, but the only other setup where I could say that the listening experience was as good, albeit with chamber and classical music, was with Quad ESL 988 + Quad 405 MKII combination (non-biamp).
What great timing for this topic. I was just toying with constructing new bi-amp crossovers for my Klipschorns. I was also toying with figuring out the time alignment between the mid and tweeter by building a new dual upper cabinet for the horns and placing them on adjustable tracks (like the fellow who did machine work in one of your earlier segments). Might be a good summer project.
Steve. Very glad you mentioned AV Receivers and their Bi-Amp capability. I have an Onkyo TX-NR787 Receiver that I am using to Bi-Amp Wharfedale Diamond 250's (also a 220C and 210's) through Sewell Silverback 12 AWG Speaker Wire (my idea of a good match for a mainstream receiver). My source for stereo audio is an HP Win 10 Pro Workstation with an ASUS XONAR SE 192kHz/24-bit Hi-Res Sound Card and Toslink to the Receiver (I use a fanless graphics card and HDMI to run my Sony 65" 4K TV as my monitor, running HTPC audio/video through the TV via ARC HDMI to the receiver for all other content). I am streaming and downloading audio from Amazon Music HD which gives me 16/44.1 at the least, with an ever increasing selection up to 24/192. Not an Audiophile setup, but certainly serves me well at dual duty for 2 channel music as well as multi-channel home theater. Satisfied with the sound quality for music and concerts would be an understatement. Cello, pipe organ, 12 string, piano, Alice Cooper to ZZ Top, etc. The Wharfedale's and Onkyo really perform well together and I attribute a portion of that to being able to Bi-Amp. Hi-Fi has come a long way in the 5 decades I've been a half step below being an Audiophile. Thanks much
With my onkyo tx rz 3100 and klipsch rp 8000 towers it made a world of difference in low and mid level detail and spacial fullness. Totally worth while. Overall volume highs got super bright. But I like bright speakers. I think alot would find fatigue setting in after a song or 2. I love home theater as well. And what a different sound. It was effortless in dynamics and dialog.
Several years ago I purchased two PrimaLuna prologue 4 stereo amplifiers to bi amp my Cornwall speakers. And it sounded great. I acquired a pair of Magnepan MG - I’s very old speakers. they were not bi ampable, and they did not sound very good with a single PrimaLuna amp. I even went out and purchased an old Yamaha P 2200 amplifier for the Mg-l’s, thinking that more power would be the answer. but they never sounded good. I then rebuilt the crossovers on the Maggies and made them bi amp. When I bi amped with the prima Luna‘s they sounded good so good in fact I started watching your RUclips channel and traded them in on a pair of .7’s. The .7 was much more detailed and open and better soundstage than the Mg-I but did not sound as great as you or other reviewers had raved about them. Then I tried the old Yamaha with 220 watts per channel, wow what a difference that made. I just traded in the .7 for 1.7i and to be very honest you get more sound, better bass but somehow I feel the .7 is a faster speaker. With the cormwall I plan to bypass the passive crossover and use an active crossovers with the Yamaha for bass and the PrimaLuna’s for mid and treble. Right now the 1.7i are powered by a 350 watt McIntosh amp, they do need good power!
I've been vertically bi-amping with identical amps for 20+ years. The difference is significant. I'm surprised this is such a revelation for you Steve.
In your setup, you still have a full range audio signal going to both amps and thus to both high and low speakers. It seems this would be so much better if there was a crossover between the preamp output and the main amps inputs. That way high frequency signal goes to one amp, etc.
Daniel Bai is correct. In fact, in this particular situation both low-powered SET amps are still delivering full bandwidth audio to both speakers - high and low. The speaker's crossover network is just turning the low/high pass frequencies that are filtered out into heat. Those little SET amps would perform much better if they only had to reproduce the intended frequencies for each speaker range. What Steve has done here is not the way to do this!
Hey Steve, what’s up! I use a combination of valve and class-D amps. My preamp is the Musical fidelity Primo pre amp (14 ECC81 Valves) and the the Auralic Merak Monoblocks (2 for highs & 2 for lows). The speakers are Harbeth SHL5 30 anniversary. A lovely clean sound.
My speakers are home-made 18" 4 ways designed for bi-amping.They are powered by a 1993 Yamaha RXV870 for the top end, to a Marchand XM66 active X-over, NAD275bee for the bass (yeah, I like class D). This is one of the best sounding set-ups I've ever heard. Quiet or exceptionally loud, it's great.
Hi there, I found this idea so interesting and I wanted to try it, but the lack of two identical power amps sort of almost stopped me from at least trying,,,, but I decided to give it a go. I’ve combined a sweet old Naim NAP 150 / 50 watt power amp and a brand new awesome Denafrips Hyperion, 80 watts power amp. Controlled by a Denafrips Hestia preamp which has one set of XLR outputs going to the Hyperion, and another set of RCA outputs connected to the Naim. All this finally connected in biwire mode using two pairs of Zu Audio speaker cables to my beloved Proac Response One SC speakers. Suddenly my stereo system completely disappeared and I was listening to a live band.... right on front of me.... thanks so much my dear sir, life is great !!!!!!
I have the RP-600Ms biamped with a Jolida FX-10 on the tops, and two Schiit Aegirs strapped for mono on the bottoms, all driven by a Freya+ : Jolida from the single ended outputs and Aegirs off the balanced outputs. DELICIOUS. Keep up the good work: PS my wife isn’t so much a fan because I’ve bought so much stuff you’ve recommended! 😝🤣
I've been saving my pennies so that I can cross over and finally buy a audiophile level 2-channel amplifier. In the meantime I did bi-amp my Yamaha RX-A2060 Aventage A/V receiver (no slouch as far as A/V goes) to my front Klipsch RP-280FAs. I have to admit I was skeptical, but the difference was immediately noticeable. Like others have noted, the bass is much faster, the lower midrange is more solid and the highs have, I don't know, more "airiness" from the horn tweeters. Nice video!
When i replaced a 20-year-old 5.1 receiver with my AVR-X4700H I bi-amped my Klipsch RP-600Miis using an unused height channel. I love it (so far). If I get a second set of heights to go in the rear, I'll lose it unless I buy a new amp and use the pre-outs. As it is, my 6.1.2 system sounds great (I had to remove my center cannel speaker to put my new turntable on the top shelf - Rega P2 with the VM540ML stylus).
Thanks Steve. Did you compare just mono-ing each Aegir amp, then running one per speaker instead?? I run bridged stereo monoblocks to my LS50s- no biwire connection by design. I must say I find it hard to cope with the idea of passively filtering out 80% of the output of one amp for the tweeters :-D Lastly: running powered subwoofers is already biamping;-)
Hi Steve, Happy New Year. I like to thank you for the video on pure audio project speakers, as a result I am a proud owner of pure audio project Quintet 15 with Voxativ AC 1.6. As you described the 15” drivers combined with no baffle makes it an eye opening experience, Thank You. This will be my last and final speaker I suppose.
My ATC SCM40 passives are tri amped, 2 x Audiolab 8000Ms for the tweeter and mid and an Audiolab 8300MB for the Bass. Sounds fantastic and friends who have heard my system are amazed! Preamp is the Audiolab 8000Q.
Two experiences. A tri-amped setup with two, 2 watt single ended triodes, and a single ended 8 watt solid state amp on the tweeter. I use an active crossover so I can level the volumes. Huge horns, ribbon tweeter, fantastic sound. They let you know what the single ended triode mystique is really about. The second requires a little background. In the early '90s, I came very close to buying a pair of Vision Acoustics Soloist speakers. they were $1,800 a pair without stands. Doesn't sound that expensive but now that's $3,200. Their claim to fame was an 8" poly woofer with a Motorola Piezo tweeter mounted to the center of the cone so that it moved with the woofer. They limited the excursion of the woofer to eliminate doppler effect, which may be the reason I ultimately rejected them. What they did do, is present the deepest, most solid, and convincing image I have ever heard from any speaker before or since. Only about 80 pairs were ever made, so good luck trying to find a pair, but it just so happens, I did. Paid $200 for them last year. They are acoustic suspension and 86db efficient. When I auditioned them back in the day I had 150 watt tube amps. I no longer have those, but every solid state amp I have, that make enough power, sounded like crap. So I thought I would hook up one of my S.E.T.s. The flapping sound from the woofer told me that this was not enough power. So, I biamped, running the woofer amp through a QUAD sub that eliminated everything under 85hz. This is also technically triamping. This works, and I don't have enough power to bump up to the limiting factor that caused me to reject the speaker in the first place--when the music gets big, the speaker stays small. They will play Rickie Lee Jones, they won't play Wagner. So, would I biamp if power wasn't a factor? Probably not. My triamp setup uses a lot of wire, not to mention three amplifiers. Depending on the wire and amps you use, this can get expensive. I have $3,000 into the amps on the system, $4,000 if you count the sub. You can buy a really nice adequately powered amp for $4,000.
I am also using a tri-amped system. However, I ended up customizing the speakers to include the power amp modules. I liked the sound when the power amp modules were in a separate chassis (bi-amped) so the manufacturer (Legacy Audio) offered to put the power amp modules within the speakers (Legacy Audio Aeris) themselves. This is an open-baffle system so the amps are not enclosed (but are hidden). This saved money by not requiring to pay for the power amp chassis itself as well as speaker cables. The system came with 3 pairs of 10 foot long Monoprice interconnects. I ended up getting OCC interconnects, so more expensive. However, the difference in sound quality was subtle. It was the difference between a quiet sound getting quieter versus the same sound seeming to move further away in the sound stage. The setup is now quite simple. One preamp, 3 pairs of interconnects, and a pair of speakers.
I ‘biamp’ in a unique way. I love the low watt SET amps, particularly the 45, 300b, 801, and the pentode el84 wired in triode mode. Each of these has stood the test of time with me. I’ve used them with a number of speakers including b&w803’s various klipsch, fostex and lowther and quad esl’s and concentric tannoys. Passdiy offered the F4 a few years ago. This first watt amp is meant to take voltage amps and bolster their power with a pure current supply. The lowend of all speakers I’ve tried in and some of those listed above across the spectrum really shine when ‘biamped’ in this configuration. Thanks go out to the Reigning King of SS -NP. I imagine amps like the decware zen would bring their magic to the more challenging but worthy speakers like the KEF ls50 & the tiny BBC monitors when complimented by appropriate let’s call’m current followers’.
HI Steve, happy New Year. Bi amping changed myh HI FI experience. I use CLass A First Watt M2X on the top and ChiFi Class D down below with MiniDSP on the bass only. Stunning effect on the bass, top and mid range as lovely as ever, getting awy from the crossover is so good. Cheers.
Hi, Steve. As has been suggested in comments section already, try out vertical bi-amping instead of in your cases horizontal bi-amping. For the vertical config. identical amps is paramount being each amp drives an entire speaker; for the amp driving the left channel speaker one of its channels is connected to the lower set of terminals and the other to the upper terminal set, and the same with the amp driving the right channel speakers. It's some time ago, but to my ears the horizontal config. sounded flatter and less involving somehow. Definitely try out vertical config. and see where that leads sonically to your ears. If the amps you have at hand are bridgeable, I'd try that out as well. Ignore the naysayers who would have you believe bridged config. is (theoretically) inferior. With the identical power amps I used years ago, where I also tried out horizontal and vertical bi-amping, I actually preferred the same amps in bridged mode, which converts each amp into a mono amp with typically 3 times the power of its non-bridged state. In bridged mode the sound just became that more alive and effortless compared to both bi-amping modes. Lastly, I use different amps for the horn section and parallel coupled dual 15" woofers/mids in my main 2-way speakers, but I'm running them actively and so the whole of their sound is dialed in around this configuration with different amps to begin with. I find it works very well, but in the near future will replace the bass amp to one that complements the overall presentation even better. A future scenario (even further out) may have me try out identical amps for the main speakers, still actively configured.
I found vertical a bit better than horizontal using identical amps. I use two ICE 50ASX2SE stereo modules in a DIY integrated amp with 8SN7s as the line driver. Imaging was more defined with the vertical arrangement and bass was tighter. The biggest change was with phasey effects that put sound outside the speakers - it was quite a bit better with vertical. The improvement in bass accuracy i would put down to each channel having its own power supply - a bit more current delivery maybe? Besides gain matching (not an issue if using identical amps), the other main concern is amplifier input impedance - it will be half the nominal value when hooking up two amps in parallel to the pre-amp. Probably not an issue for solid state pre-amps, but some tube pre's may have an output impedance that's too high for driving the paralled input of two typical solid state amps (5K ohms).
Hadn't thought about vertical bi-amping, but it makes sense to have a single amp per side if you want to reduce stereo crosstalk as well as HF/LF crosstalk. The only time this would make no difference is on an amp like my A308, which is a true dual mono, including the power supplies. Many of the benefits of bi-amping are also achievable by bi-wiring, specially if you have enough power in the first place. I suspect some of the improvement on the tiny little valve amp was due to a bit more oomph.
Hello steve, I'm bi-amping with my Arcam alpha 10 integrated & Arcam alpha 10p power amp, the integrated runs the woofers & the power amp runs the tweaters, theses amp are around 20 years old & immaculate, I've looked after them extremely well, & these still sound wicked, I'm using my Monitor Audio GS10 loudspeakers with them, the combinations suits extremely well, a great subject as usual Steve👍
Happy New Year Steve! Thank you for sharing this info to our community. Much appreciated. In my DJ days... I used to Bi-amp a rack of crowns and never had any power or sound issues unless the 👮♀️ shut us down.
I have a DC300 series II on Bose 901 and I'm thinking of getting another, but bridging the amps to mono and putting one on each speaker. I also have some Magnepan IIBs with bi-wiring that I could hook up like he did.
Hi Steve I have an Arcam Alpha 7 integrated and an Arcam Alpha P8 power amp with the 7 driving the tweeter and the P8 driving the base on my Polk Audio A1a speakers and the improvement is really noticeable over just using the integrated. Thanks for another great video.
I'm bi-amping with my Sony DA2400es, this has bi amp feature AND pre amp out. So yes, I am using another Sony stereo amp to power the lows. I prefer to offload some of the power to another amp, it probably creates a little noise for the extra signal path but right now, it sounds good. I'm looking to get 3xCambridge Audio p500s for my rear, centre and replace the Sony integrated am using as a power amp. I do have 5.1, using the SoundblasterX AE-9 as a transport/pre amp. For media playback a 5.1 dac is incredible. Of course analog from the PC using a sub £50 2m cable for all channels then a more expensive jumper length from Sony to Sony and QED XT40i to my bi amped speakers. Good power cables and a conditioner. Soundstage, detail, power, it has everything right now and I know the bi amping improved the soundstage and detail when I first tried, I was hekkin impresssed. Anyway lol thats my life story \o/
@@ar_xiv No, that is not the obvious answer ;) You can compare a 2x mono setup to a bi-amp setup which actually was his question, i.e. single connection to each speaker. Anyway, that is not what the Audiophiliac tested, so the question was kinda pointless...
I too would like to know. I currently run a mono-blocked NAD to each Klipsch speaker. Would I lose some dynamics and separation running in bi-amp stereo? ( 100w/channel stereo, 400w/channel mono )
I bi-amped Usher V9801 with Supra Rondo cable to Usher AU6500 bypass preamp direct connect to Point P-type Dac, use Dac as preamp, the result is definitely better. Better bass control, cleaner sound, shaper stage image. Supra cable basically provide a smoother sound for the system, and I think bi-amped it just add a much more reasonable power for the speakers.
Happy New Year Steve. I had a pair of Dahlquist DQ20i and at the time I had a Carver avr100 reciever and an Adcom gfa5500. I bi amped the speakers using the Adcom for the bass and the Carver 150 watts channel for the mid and high frequency and they sounded amazing. That's my experience
Another bi-amp option is to have amp A for left and amb B for right (rather than amp A for tweeter and amp B for woofer). Of course this method really requires matching amps. I've found that this better uses that power supply of smaller amps or when desiring to play louder. The trade off would be that the higher frequencies can be more reveling when the amp is being driven at high volume .
I took my old JBLs and split the divider circuit so each driver still had the original circuit upstream. Then installed biamp posts and set my yamaha 7.1 av receiver to work as 5.1 with the front mains biamped. The improvement was huge and all I had to buy were dual banana posts from parts express. A bit of soldering and elbow grease and the whole system sounds so much more beefy.
I did bi-amping for years with tube int.amp on tweeters and SS amp on bass, best of both worlds. And could adjust volume on tweeters which works like tone control. Makes better sound than much more expensive amps always.
Bi-amp is required for my current hungry IRS Betas, I’m still using my stop gap “temporary” set up of an old SAE 502a on top end, and an Adcom GFA 555 on the woofers. Would prefer Audio Research w/ tubes on the panels, something with a volume control. I have VTL 300 Mb, gonna drag those back out soon and retest, after recently discovering I had an ac outlet wired backwards (!), which might explain my fuse blowing issues. Fingers crossed.
Steve, I was told by Audioquest that the cables from each of the amps to the speaker needs to be the same. They gave me some technical reasons I don't understand but they were pretty firm about it. Nothing would blow up but it would not sound right. Like I have a Robin Hood Zero as my main speaker cables and a Castle Rock in my secondary system. The advice was not to use both but to get a second of the same type.
Hi Steve, not long ago you experimented with bi-amping the Sonus Saber tower speakers with the McIntosh dual apms at the McIntosh facility, doing exactly that: driving the mids and the highs with the tube channel and the lows - with the solid-state channel. You seemed to be happy with the result, but yes, you did state, that this particular tube amp didnt sound like a typical tube, plus it was a very high-end amp designed from the beginning to do exactly that. Just wanted to mention that. Id suspect, that a typical tube amp, having a weak if any global feedback loop may be introducing a larger delay in the signal path and still be ok on its own, but when you pair it with solid state - the outputs could be "out o sync" so to say. Thanks for researching this topic for the community!
When the preamp in my Rotel RA975 (100W/ch) began to die, I purchased a Rotel A11 (20W/ch). The old power amp now drives my woofers/lower mid-range and the tweeters are driven by the 20W/ch amp. Works well and I wouldn’t go back to the way things were before. It didn’t take much effort, saved an amplifier I’ve enjoyed for 20 years and yes, the result is more detail and a hard to describe slight extra “meatiness” in the bass. Not huge-it’s subtle. And your techie friend is wrong-there’s plenty of valid technical reasons that there would be a difference, but not of course what the result would actually _sound_ like. Side note: I’d always intended to try something like this but never got around to it until fate intervened. I also added a DSP and played around with active crossover as well. I could happily live without the DSP, but not the bi-amping.
I have been bi-amping for years. I'm a professional 'live' sound engineer, that found a lot of time on my hands recently, due to the COVID situation. So, I decided to build a poor man's HiFi system, using bits and pieces from some of my old speaker stock. Retired speaker cabinets, spare drivers, various crossovers, horn lenses, etc. And after a few months of testing various frankenstein creations, I came up with this concoction. I took a pair of 30+ year old Sonic brand, 15" 2-way PA speaker cabinets. I installed MCM Electronics, aluminum cast framed 15" woofers, JBL 2416H HF drivers, and equally aged Eminence 2-way crossovers. (Only to protect the JBL horn drivers. Leaving the 15" woofers to be DSP'd by the amplifier) Then, I bought new horns that matched the original ones in the Sonic boxes, and fitted them with 40+ year old EV-1824M midrange drivers, built boxes for them, and then added bandpass crossovers, to protect them. I then took new Skar brand, 6.5" mid-woofers, put those into small boxes, and added a pair of baby butt cheek horns, fitted with 25 year old Foster N27 HF drivers, and crossed them over with some 40 year old Realistic 2-way crossovers. I then took an Aiyima brand T2, dual vacuum tube, (6J1), preamp, that I then run my Tascam CDRW5000 CD player thru, or just Bluetooth the signal source, (Pandora or Spotify), thru its BT feature, then RCA 'Y' cabled out to three amplifiers. Two Crown XLS1000s, and an A/B International Series 200. The first Crown amp powers the 15" woofers, @ 250 Hz into 8 ohms at 215 watts. The second Crown amp, powers up the JBL horns and the Foster horns, in full range, (Remember, they have built in crossovers), at 350 watts, into 4 ohms. (But, I don't use all that power on them) The A/B intl. amp powers up both the EV-1824M mid horns, (@ 2,000 Hz - 6,000 kHz) and the Skar 6.5" drivers, (@ 200 Hz - 8,000 kHz), at 100 watts into a 4 ohm load. As they are internally crossed over with their respective networks. The end result is a great, very defined, and a widely separated spectrum of sound. Despite not really being HiFi materials, I am blown away by this. Not anything I have owned, in the way of consumer speakers, has ever come close to this sound. Mind you, I have been engineering live sound for 35 years, and I love to listen to quality music on a quality systems. So I have to say that the months that it took to cultivate these drivers, was paid off wonderfully. Now, I started watching your clips on RUclips, since around March of last year, so I have been paying attention. (I love your reviews, BTW) Here is a lengthy clip of my Frankenstein's monsters in action. (Filmed in my garage, where they were created) I call them 'The Sonic Colossus' speakers. This clip was made prior to my adding the baby butt cheek horns and Foster drivers, and a 100 watt hybrid tube amp. Let me know what you think. vimeo.com/499869037 Thanks.
I have been bi-amping since 2002. Originally I had 2 Tag McLaren 125M mono blocks driving my PMC FB1+ speakers when I had the chance to acquire another pair of 125M's so I could bi-amp each speaker, All I can say is that I would never ever return to single amplification as everything else I have tried fails to give the same clarity and delicacy that I have had for nearly 2 decades.
I use my Audiolab 8000S integrated with its matched 8000SX power amp for bi-amping, and the difference is easily noticeable. It very clearly adds a bit of weight. Things sound slightly fuller. Definitely recommended if you've got kit that'll do it. Having said that, I'm currently running closed-box speakers from 1989 that only have one set of binding posts, as they suit the room I'm in at the moment a lot better.
Have a pair of rtia12 polks I was going to toss away or sell because I was so disappointed in the sound. I saw online that someone said they need to be biamped due to them being power hungry . Once I did it they sounded like 100% different speakers
I had tha same problem with polk lsim 705's. Powered them with a crown 1502.... and was so disappointed. I took a chance, added another crown and OMG.... now I'm in AUDIO HEAVEN
Have biamped speakers since the 80s in various different ways solid state and valve or a mixture of both, had good and bad results depending on the equipment used, definitely worth exploring this topic.
If you do not have 2 sets of pre-amp outs but the pre-amp is true balanced, you can split the balanced out into 2 single end circuits. This way, not only are you using 2 power amps for each speaker, but also 2 pre-amp circuits as well.
Great video Steve! Bi-amp often both horizontal (as shown) and vertical. Also used active crossovers. Tried tube amps on top and solid state on bass. The gain characteristics or input impedance, made the tonal balance change with volume control position. Didn't work out.
The best way to do this in my opinion is with tubes on the tweeters and solid state on the woofers. Tubes make the highs smoother while solid state gives much deeper tighter bass. Best of both worlds
Also its nice if you have 2 preamps so you can independently control tones on the woofer and tweeters using the one pre with 2 sets of preout to feed the tweeters and the other preamp which feeds the woofers so the first pre works as a master volume control. This really allows you to dial in the bass tones on the woofer without effecting the mids and tweeters.
The first time I bi amped was back in the mid seventies with a pair of Magnepans. I didn't do it again until recently with a pair of JSE Infinite Slope model 2's. In both cases, it improved the sound dramatically.
Hi Steve Great video, thanks! I believe the Decware amps can also be used as monoblocks getting more power per channel, as every amp will only drive one of them, and also making easier the connections and no needing for a Y splitter and the risk of missmatching impedances. If they can be used as monoblocks, the ultimate test would be biamping vs monoblocks. Have you tried that? PS: by the way, using them as monoblocks gives another advantage. The amps can be placed closer to each speaker and that way save money on speaker cables as good ones are very expensive.
I've got a pair of B&W 801 Nautilus's, that I've tried a bunch of different amps on including McIntosh 1.25KW's. Currently bi-amping with a Rogue Atlas Magnum with KT120's driving the top end and a Bryson 4B SST on the bottom. Sounded bass heavy at first and switched back to a Bryston 4B ST which has less power and was a better match. Subsequently. tried McIntosh's MC901's approach and introduced an ART 2 way crossover with gain control. Switched back to the 4B SST and dialed it in. Wow! Very impressed with the sound. Source is Tidal, pre-amp is a McIntosh C1100 and DAC is a Lampizator Atlantic.
I think I explained bi-amping very clearly. NO extra parts (including crossovers) are needed. To bi-amp your present speakers all you need is: A speaker with double binding posts, two pairs of speaker cables, two identical stereo amps (or a receiver with bi-amp capability). THAT'S IT!! Of course, you can make it more complicated, but that wasn't what I set out to do. You don’t have to take my word for it about bi-amping, read the comments from viewers who are doing it! As I described in the video!
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay
So, what's your point in this monumental diatribe?
No one's putting a gun to your head, ya know. 🙄
I'm about to try my hand at bi amping I'm making a set of speakers for it a wmtm out of live edge Walnut slabs and see for myself what this is going to sound like
Hi Steve, when you mentioned that some AVRs can be used to bi amp loudspeakers with dual binding posts, I dug out the manual for my Marantz SR. 7005 and read the bit about bi amping. I got myself two lengths of 14 AWG speaker cable and eight banana plugs and did the job. The sound was excellent before and now it is amazing. One thing to bear in mind is to allow the amp to settle with extra load of cables plus burning by playing music (Stereo plus sub, with bass management off) for a couple or so hours.Thank you, Steve. Many thanks, friend. Cheers.
In my opinion you should have really elaborated on the difference between horizontal vs. vertical bi-amping. A bit disappointing this was left out...
As I stated in my original comment, "I was disappointed", for the reasons stated. I never disputed the merits of bi-wiring. I didn't yell or use exclamation points, I just respectfully stated my opinion. In re-reading my comment and evaluating the tenor of the content, I standby my statement.
Steve, thank you so much for this video, I've learned so much from you. Just tried this Vertical Bi-amp with 2X 829B Class-A Tube Amps, 12WX4 into my older Polk RTi8s. it was an amazing audio experience, punchy & speedy bass, clear & thick Mid, crispy high. I can't go back to my Bi-wired Cambridge setup anymore.
I bi-wired my klipsch rp8000fs thru a sony es avr and I am happy with the results. More punch and detail.
I am bi-amping with my Pioneer VSX-935 receiver and Klipsch F-300 speakers. The receiver does have a bi-amp setting. 12 gauge wire is being used from each channel to power the speakers. I don't have fancy equipment to take measurements, but the difference is astounding! It does sound to me that there is more wattage, but that's just my perception, I'm sure. There is definitely more punchy sound with less distortion. The bass and treble are definitely clearer, with more dynamic range.
Steve, great explanation of bi - amping. I'm currently using a Marantz SR5007 av receiver to bi - amp a pair of Mission MX3s. I found the difference was amazing. The soundstage opened up by leaps and bounds, with fuller, tighter base and much more detailed highs and midrange. Never going back again.
Yes, I do use bi-amp with my speakers (vertical bi-amp, with two exactly same stereo amps), and the difference is very noticeable. Much better!
Bi-amping can be the tone controls that all super high end gear don't have. Some might say that you don't need it, but you need it if you play music at different volume because of the loudness effect. If you buy two 2-channel switch and some resistors you can then change the balance between the drivers. If the crossover point is two high you need to add a cap plus an extra resistor on the bass output, in other create a 1st order lowpass filter that lower just everything above let's say 400 Hz. Please be aware of phase between woofer and tweeter at the crossover frequency.
I don't believe in deep bass for audio but rather a lot of push in the 80-300 Hz region that makes the speakers sound dynamic. I mainly listen to 6/7ts music where this spectrum is important. More modern music has a lot more focus on deeper bass and then there is a completely thing, but this way to handle the loudness effect is still possible. Most music started to sound crap when they replaced the Altec 604 speakers (just bought a pair cheap) and started with more modern digital production.
I bi-amplified my Tannoy XT8F's and was impressed with the improvement. Cleaner, faster bass, far better mid and treble fine detail. Also improved sound stage width and depth with holographic imaging. On some recordings I hear sounds coming from the side of my listening position which makes me jump.
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay I'm using two dual monaural lateral power mosfet, dc coupled power amplifiers. Each channel has it's own 625VA toroidal power supply
and uses four Exicon lateral power mosfets fed from a split 80-0-80 volt supply. I designed and built the power amplifiers a few years ago. I'm using four Gale OFC 2.5mm speaker cables which are each 2m long. I designed the power amplifiers to have a voltage gain of 22 so I can drive them directly from my Topping dac. I operate the dac in pre-amp mode using the remote control to adjust the volume. The 2 volts RMS output from the dac will drive the power amplifiers to 44 volts RMS output which equates to to 244 watts into 8 ohms. Obviously I never run anywhere near full output power. I only use a maximum of 10% of the available power in order to prevent clipping on transients.
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay Here is a link to photo's of one of my power amplifiers on posting 6902: www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/96192-post-solid-pics-691.html My previous posting on here stated a split supply of 80-0-80 volts which is 160 volts with a 0 volt centre. Full power unclipped sinewave at 1KHz into 8 ohms is 272 Watts per channel and 450 Watts per channel into 4 ohms. Tannoy speakers work best with high damping factor solid state amplifiers and mosfet power amplifiers are wide bandwidth, high slew rate and high damping factor. Bass reflex loaded speakers rely on amplifier damping factor to damp the bass cones apart from around the frequency where the port operates. Around 20 years ago I designed an improved crossover for the Tannoy HPD 385 and 3828 drivers which has been copied by many people world wide who were very pleased with the improvement. I therefore do know Tannoy's very well indeed.
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay Send me photo's of amplifiers you have designed and built which you consider far better than mine. You obviously consider my engineering to be poor and I'm sorry you think that. My amplifiers are flat out to 60KHz. My power output claims are based upon my own measurements using an 8 ohm load, an oscilloscope and a true RMS reading digital volt meter. Driving both channels makes no difference to the output power because each amplifier channel has it's own separate 625 VA power supply. My power amplifiers are flat within 0.1dB to 60KHz. Regarding the older Tannoys, even Steve has listened to them and correctly stated that they don't have the fine detail of modern speakers. I look forward to seeing your designs to prove that my designs are so poor.
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay Ask Steve regarding what amplifier he used to listen to the older Tannoy....and I worked for Radford audio back in the mid 1970's. Have a nice day chum.
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay How do you figure that +/- 80V rails can't produce 244 watts RMS (not peak) into 8 ohms ?
And I just put together my "perfect" system. Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in
You know steve ive been with your channel for a couple years..im very thankful for this post
Bi-amp works! Tried it and love it
Steve, you’re the best! Thanks for making the two channel listening topic interesting for so long. Although, lots of esoteric types of amps exist in the marketplace, biamping is the perfect job for an Av amp. I used the biamp function on my marantz sr8015 and it improved my Cornwall IV speakers immensely. Imperceptible difference between the marantz sr8015 and much much more expensive mono block amps. Lastly, great integrated av relievers are a fraction of the cost of dedicated two channel amps.
Thanks for showing the ins and outs on this subject. I'm a big fan of the bi amp camp. I'm currently doing this on my Vandersteen 2ci with amazing results. I use a Sony Ta-n 9000 ES for the amp and its perfect. I had Definitive Technology set up on it but prefer stereo. I was watching a movie the other day and would've sworn I'd been dosed, the soundstage was stunning, with an almost holographic sound. The bi amp is worth the investment of extra cables if you have a surround system to adapt. Keep up the good work Steve.
Hey Steve, I watched a few youtube vids on bi amping, mostly from curmudgeons like PS Audio and GR Research who were of the opinion that it doesn't help. Then I checked out your video and man I was excited to try it. My new Klipsch RP-8000Fs were not sounding great to with my home theater Onkyo TX NR6050. I was hoping that bi amping might help. It made a huge difference and turned around feelings of buyers remorse. the Klipschs' sounded much more lively and... IDK... higher resolution. There is a bi-amping setting on the onkyo, some added speaker wires and presto. I don't know what is under the hood of the Onkyo but this change made a difference. Thanks for the inspiration
A couple of years ago, at the recommendation of the folks at The Stereo Shop in Hartford, CT, I bi-amped the amazing Bowers & Wilkins 805D3s I bought from them (bought on your recommendation) using my Sony AV receiver (also bought on your recommendation). Absolutely astounding sound, both for music and film/TV. The bi-amping really made an incredible difference.
Happy new year Steve. All the best for 2021.
I biamped my Klipsch RP280F with my Onkyo TX-NR797, I was so surprised ! By bypassing the crossover networks it improved the depth and clarity of every instrument and vocal heard. A crossover network is a compromise in filtering frequencies it can muddle and separate signals better quality components can help this, but letting the amps do this removes the need for this compromise and can wake up a dead spot in a crossover and allow an elegant design in a speaker shine!
I built one Amp Camp Amp and loved it. Then I build a second and tried bi-amping them. My premise was that damping factor was a more important limit in my listening than the limited power deliver from the little amps. When not bi-amped, the woofers dominated the amps and the amp's ability to control the tweeter suffered. That affected all the spatial cues that come with high frequency clarity. It worked a treat, and I've stuck with bi-amping ever sense. I'm now running two sources into a pair of DIY B1 Korg pre-amps, tuned a little differently - super clear for the base and a bit more 2nd harmonic for the highs. The clear one drives an F5 clone and then my Forte woofers. The "Warmer" one drives and F6 clone and my Forte mid and tweeter horns. I've never looked back. Damping factor is a spec that is probably too little understood in HiFi.
I had an older NAD integrated amp that had A & B speaker terminals and the switch was A or B or A and B at the same time. I bi-amped a set of speakers and it was just as you described it. The sound had more Umph to it, more body. Which makes sense because instead of splitting the power rating between the woofer and the tweeter each got full power.
So you had no trouble with A+B whatsoever?
I happen to own a stereo power amp with the same speaker choices (A, B, A+B), and at the rear the A+B option states 8 to 16 ohms, whereas my speakers are 6 ohms. What does your amp states at the rear, and what's the impedance of your speakers?
@@enowilson I had no problems, my amp had a switch for either 8 or 4 ohms so I had it set to 8 ohms and my speakers were rated 8 obms also.
I would check with the manufacturer of your amp to see if or what you could do as I’m not sure. I know a lot of the newer amps don’t specify 6 ohm but you can power 6 ohm speakers with them.
Sorry I couldn’t be more helpful.
There's no questions that bi-amping will yield an improvement in clarity, richness, and tone. Even using a HT receiver that has extra surround channels that can be used for bi-amp, will deliver impressive results. I was amazed when I first tried this, and even though doing this limited my HT receiver from a 7.1 down to a 5.1, I could not bring myself to change it back afterwards. The front sound-stage just sounds too rich, too glorious, to give it up.
A lot of the improvement is splitting the hi-pass and low-pass filter plus load apart. Now each amp only sees one of the filters plus load. Greatly reduces the weirdness of the reactive loads during transients.
It looks like Steve did a horizontal bi-amp configuration. I've been running my Dyna/VTA ST-70s vertically bi-amped per Bob Latino's suggestion for the past year. The result is wonderfully improved separation, clarity, soundstage, and dynamics. Tonal balance is roughly the same, so it still sounds like the same system, but many other aspects are simply better, bigger, more involving.
This setup uses two identical stereo amps...one amp on each side that work like 2 channel mono blocks. The stereo signal from the preamp gets split to left and right sides like normal, but the amp inputs on each side share that signal, then one output channel feeds the woofer, and the other channel feeds the mid/highs, with the passive crossovers separating that output (active crossovers could also be used between the preamp and amps but are optional if your speakers already have passive crossovers and dual binding posts). This dedicates one channel to the tougher task of driving the woofers, while the remaining channel has the simpler task of driver the mids/highs, which improves clarity. In this setup each amp's power supply only has responsibility for one woofer, vs two with a standard stereo setup. I use matched EL34s/6CA7s per channel, but this setup allows use of different brands (or even different compatible tube types) on each channel....just do the same for each amp. I use tubes that have tighter bass on the woofer, and different tubes that have better mids/highs for the other output, so the sound can be more tailored more to your liking. I do have a powered sub that augments the lowest octave, which I keep turned down to hardly noticeable with the low pass crossover frequency at the lowest setting of 40hz.
www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring/HorizontalvsVertical.jpg/image
Anyway i watched this to learn and i bi amped my psb towers from my Yamaha rx v575 not only that it made me pay attention to what my receiver can do.OMG what a difference.The sound is so much warmer.i only tried the front psb but now im thinking of trying it on my bower and wilkins 620s
I did this recently using my Cambridge audio Azur 650r on my PSB Imagine T2 and boy did it wake up my T2's! Doing this provided more dynamics and transparency. Plus it allows you to experiment with different speaker cables for the top or the bottom. My current setup is using second generation Kimber Kable 8tc for the bottom end and 4tc for the top end result, perfection to my ears!
Yip been biamping for 30 years steve .havnt looked back steve 😊😊😊
Steve, thanks for the input. I'm having great results bi-amping Q Acoustics 3050's with Iota VX stack (pa3 and sa3). The Iota's were good in mono mode, but more presence and power in bi amp configuration. Better mains cables didn't hurt either. I can validate your experience.
I have 2 Marantz pm 10’s bi-amping concept 500’s, very pleased as well
Have a Marantz SR6007. Just purchased Klipsch Heresy IVs (thanks for your review) a month ago.
BiAmped today. So far seems a bit more open plus cymbal decay was clear and long. Have an evening of deep listening. Thanks!!
Vandersteen speakers, model "Quatro" and up, are all bi-amped, via external high-pass passive filters.
The high-pass filter reduces the bass frequencies by 6 decibels (I believe), and compensates for that reduction via the amps that power the woofers.
The midrange and higher frequencies are passed through "as is".
The advantage to the above design is that the amps that power the top section of the speakers (where your ears are most discerning)... those amps have far less bass content to deal with (and it is the bass frequencies that put the most stress on amps).
So your amps that are dedicated to the mids and highs are relieved of dealing with difficult bass frequencies (not completely, but to a large degree), allowing them to more efficiently, more correctly, and more musically power the range of sound that you hear the best.
The speakers are designed to reverse the -6db bass that is going to the woofers, leaving your bass section sounding neutral and correct.
As an aside, the Quatros and up do their own version of DSP, with the bass. When set-up professionally, with sound pressure level meters, it does a wondrous job of compensating for bass issues that are inherent to 99% of listening rooms. It is not a substitute for room treatments. It is a compliment to room treatments, and can do its job independently of room treatments (although room treatments are still beneficial, and significantly so).
I have been bi-amping for a decade and can't imagine not doing it with my current and past speakers. I had Paradigm Monitor 9s Mk 3 and they really responded well to a division of power to the bass and mid drivers and another amp dedicated to the tweeter. I pushed them with a NAD 916 with Power Envelope technology. The NAD 916 is a early surround amplifier. It has three separate 30W amps in one chassis. These are also bridgeable. I had two amps bridged for the bass/mid giving 65W (instantaneous peaks of 90W) and 30W for the highs (peaks of 45W). Sounded great with proper placement- pull out from wall and toe in.
Recently I have leveled up to Klipsch La Scalas- Got a super deal on some demo models. I did the same amp set up-Bridged amps to the Bass unit and separate power to the mids and high horns.
Klipsch horns are just magic and this scheme of powering them with dedicated amps yields stunning results.
aggressive
This is all very interesting. A few months ago I decided to experiment with bi-amping. I thought why stop at two amplifiers? To cut a long story short I bought four Chinese Nobsound mono amplifiers and a two way Linkwitz Riley electronic crossover pre-set at 2800hz cut off for the bass units.. I connected the whole lot up using splitter cables from the crossover to the amps. The result is amazing! I use an ancient Cambridge Audio Azur 640c and and equally ancient set of much underestimated Sony SS 176E speakers ( jumpers removed) all coupled with cheap but good quality interconnects and cables. I have to say that the system sounds as good as many of the ''high end'' setups that some of my more affluent friends posses. They begrudgingly agree with me and one of them so far, has bought the same units for their second system. Everything was bought from eBay and cost less than £200. Would gladly send pictures for your next feature on watchers systems if you wish.
By any chance were the Nobsound mono amps you bought the 300B class A amplifiers? The tall looking ones?
@@maxgeronimo3720 Hi I am using the cheap ones! and they are perfect but not very loud. Nobsound Mini Mono Channel Digital Amplifier HiFi Class D Desktop Audio Amp 100W
@@claretlover1 Thanks and I appreciate the reply! ! I’ll check those out! 👍🏻
Steve I have Biamped several times in my 57 year audio journey with no success then i used amps with volume control then came great success . I have split La Scalas all drivers physically time aligned .I have a 4 watt triode tube amp on top end and 35 watt solid state A/B on bottom end.I have the magic of tubes top end and the slam of solid state bottom end. The sound stage is deep and wide. Imaging each instrument has its own place and you can tell where the singer is standing.The final piece to the sound was a edgarhorn subwoofer not just adding the last note in bass but I was surprised how it added ambience and made the lower register instruments bloom.Pre covid I went to about 40 blues and jazz shows a year with well controlled acoustics . I wanted my system to rival a live show. Part of the fun is the experimentation getting there.
Do you find that dimming the lights almost all the way helps to clarify the 3D soundstage? That is my experience. They say that blind people can hear slightly better, and I believe it.
great comment. i also miss going out and hearing music at a big scale regularly. covid has made my home system way more important to me. it's a luxury i'm really lucky to have, because it seems to make my brain a lot happier and better-adjusted if i get to listen to my system a couple times a week :)
So did I. 4 x JBL 4320, on Nakamichi pa7.
To top end is anything from Rogers LS3/5a to Celestion SL7, again, driven as two ways by two stereo amp, or one
stereo amp driving the pair. It depends.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894
Im not the only one!
Me myself love listening in the dark. Get less room distraction more focused on tunes. 🎶
I did it a year ago with my klf30 and 2 amplifiers Rotel, one 200 wpc to woofers and the other 125 wpc to mid and tweeters and sounds amazing, nothing like before, I am so glad and happy, the power feels at low volume, do it bros you will be very happy with results
OF COURSE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!!
I have tried 3 different bi-amping combinations with my pair of Klipsch 280 RP-280F (not high end gear unfortunately but always very common pedestrian amplifiers) and the common factor has always been the preamp (NAD C165BEE) which has two outputs and, even better, it has a knob to lower one of those outputs down to -12dB versus the other output so that you can perfectly balance your amplifiers.
The combinations I have used:
a) Gemtune GS-02 KT88 valve amp for HF
Harman Kardon AVR2600 for LF
b) Gemtune GS-01 LE34 valve amp for HF
Gemtune GS-02 valve amp for LF
c) Gemtune GS-02 valve amp for HF
Rotel RB-1050 amp for LF
Everytime, the sense of a larger soundstage has been evident (very evident) but, everytime, at the moment of pumping the volume up (85dB
and more at 9 ft from the speakers) the problems start with gritty sound and distorted midrange; listening at contained volume has always been a real pleasure.
I guess I need to look two amps of better quality...
How does biamping the schiits compare to running them as a pair of monoblocks?
I’ve bi-amped Clements RT-8’s, Martin Logan ST-10’s and Newform Research 645’s all with good success over the years. Never thought of going back
I bi amped my stereo this morning, it's been a listening pleasure can't pull myself away from my system, dimension and detail is incredible, AR pre Mac 225 and solid state Hafler to B&W 803s it's gonna stay this way for a while.🙃
Steve, that explanation was on the mark. You explained the crux of the biscuit ever so succinctly.
biscuit 🙄
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really
.
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please don't tell me that you're British now🙏
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🤭😂
@@goodforwatch not hardly, I borrowed that cliché from Frank Zappa.
@@garyhilbolt4363
( ' )
As an electronics tech I thank you for this video....should have enough work the rest of the year fixing all the blown up amplifiers we will now get to service.
Bi-amping is great. I have a Bryston 4b SST on my 15 inch Celestion woofers and a Rotel RMB-1075 (only 2 channels are being used) on the midrange (Visaton 2 inch dome) and tweeter (Audax) with a Rotel 1070 preamplifier with a double output. This is not the best of preamps , but it drives both amps with no problems.
Bi-amping my system is the only change I've made that revealed a DYNAMIC difference. Magic wire, over priced separate components and all of the other 'tricks' I've experimented were in my imagination. When speakers are bi-amped they 'float' in the air. They are not more detailed; they don't have a larger sound stage, they have no more heft. What they do is float effortlessly. There is no constraint between drivers. Instruments do not fight for space in the mix. Holographic spacing. One caution: the speakers I biamped were Tannoy studio monitors which are meant to be bi-amped so the cross over is specifically designed for this signal path. When you biamp you are still using the internal cross over of the system. They only difference is you do not get the interference between multiple driver loads.
amp companies would be very happy if we all decided to bi-amp :)
I do vertical Bi-Amping since i have finished my JBL 4341-Clones in 2018, which are built for 4way reproduction of the sound. the right side of each power-amp goes to the subwoofer, and the left side drives the rest of the 4 Drivers as are mid-range, mid-bass, and tweeter! The power-amps are from Chorea, DYNAVOX, and deliver 60Watt/Ch, so I feed 120Watts into each speaker! The Preamp is a Tube-Preamp, also from DYNAVOX, and connects with two Y-interconnect-Cables.
My experience? 1.Class from the first second on! It sounds great, dynamics are awesome, and I am really proud of what I have achieved with so little money! The amplifiers were an amazon-warehouse deal, and I just paid 150,- Euro per Power-amp, and the tube Preamp (with included phono stage) went over to me at about 180,- Euro! Altogether, with interconnects just 500,- Euro! lol...And the sound is grown up!
Tube Preamp Dynavox TPR3 and Poweramps Class A/B, DYNAVOX ET100 can be found easily on Amazon, and they have pretty good critics! For me, they sound like the big stage of music, just as I wanted them to do...
The quest to squeeze every ounce of improvement is intrinsic to any audio enthusiast and last year I tried bi-amping using two Chinese hybrid amps that I thought were overachievers considering I got them for less than $200 a piece bnew. I also got a Pass inspired 20W class A solid state power amp so I think its easy to predict what combinations I tried.
My results, same with Steve, is that bi-amping with the same identical amps work best but only if its done horizontally as he did. Vertical bi-amping i.e. using Amp A to drive one speaker while Amp B drives the other for some reason wasn't as "coherent" or as musical as horizontal bi-amping. I'm sure an engineer can better explain the reason/s. Could be higher IMD in vertical b-a perhaps.
In using solid state+tube to drive LF+HF gave bad results as Steve's when he used Schiit and Zen together. The hardware difference is really audible which results in what I'd call a "mermaid effect". The halves are audibly incongruous.
Hope this helps.
I have a pair of Electro-Voice interface D speakers with C/D Interface equalizer (required for these speakers), which then feed a Dalquist DQ-LP1 low pass filter, which in turn sends high and low pass signals to two BEL 1001 MKIV amplifiers. The difference in my bi amp setup is I have the amplifiers next to each speakers, so each amp channel gets a high and low signal (instead of segregating high and low signal between amps). The resulting sound matches your results, but to my ears this is the best sound I have had in my listening room thus far. All this is fed from an Audible illusions M3A preamp, but I have also had the similar results with an old Pioneer silver series C-21 preamp. I experimented with with various speaker amp combinations, some bi-amped or bi-wired, but the only other setup where I could say that the listening experience was as good, albeit with chamber and classical music, was with Quad ESL 988 + Quad 405 MKII combination (non-biamp).
What great timing for this topic. I was just toying with constructing new bi-amp crossovers for my Klipschorns. I was also toying with figuring out the time alignment between the mid and tweeter by building a new dual upper cabinet for the horns and placing them on adjustable tracks (like the fellow who did machine work in one of your earlier segments). Might be a good summer project.
I'm doing vertical bi-amping with two Bluesound Powernode 2's. Mainly for practical reasons. Works like a charm!
Steve. Very glad you mentioned AV Receivers and their Bi-Amp capability. I have an Onkyo TX-NR787 Receiver that I am using to Bi-Amp Wharfedale Diamond 250's (also a 220C and 210's) through Sewell Silverback 12 AWG Speaker Wire (my idea of a good match for a mainstream receiver). My source for stereo audio is an HP Win 10 Pro Workstation with an ASUS XONAR SE 192kHz/24-bit Hi-Res Sound Card and Toslink to the Receiver (I use a fanless graphics card and HDMI to run my Sony 65" 4K TV as my monitor, running HTPC audio/video through the TV via ARC HDMI to the receiver for all other content). I am streaming and downloading audio from Amazon Music HD which gives me 16/44.1 at the least, with an ever increasing selection up to 24/192. Not an Audiophile setup, but certainly serves me well at dual duty for 2 channel music as well as multi-channel home theater. Satisfied with the sound quality for music and concerts would be an understatement. Cello, pipe organ, 12 string, piano, Alice Cooper to ZZ Top, etc. The Wharfedale's and Onkyo really perform well together and I attribute a portion of that to being able to Bi-Amp. Hi-Fi has come a long way in the 5 decades I've been a half step below being an Audiophile. Thanks much
With my onkyo tx rz 3100 and klipsch rp 8000 towers it made a world of difference in low and mid level detail and spacial fullness. Totally worth while. Overall volume highs got super bright. But I like bright speakers. I think alot would find fatigue setting in after a song or 2. I love home theater as well. And what a different sound. It was effortless in dynamics and dialog.
Several years ago I purchased two PrimaLuna prologue 4 stereo amplifiers to bi amp my Cornwall speakers. And it sounded great. I acquired a pair of Magnepan MG - I’s very old speakers. they were not bi ampable, and they did not sound very good with a single PrimaLuna amp. I even went out and purchased an old Yamaha P 2200 amplifier for the Mg-l’s, thinking that more power would be the answer. but they never sounded good. I then rebuilt the crossovers on the Maggies and made them bi amp. When I bi amped with
the prima Luna‘s they sounded good so good in fact I started watching your RUclips channel and traded them in on a pair of .7’s.
The .7 was much more detailed and open and better soundstage than the Mg-I but did not sound as great as you or other reviewers had raved about them. Then I tried the old Yamaha with 220 watts per channel, wow what a difference that made. I just traded in the .7 for 1.7i and to be very honest you get more sound, better bass but somehow I feel the .7 is a faster speaker. With the cormwall I plan to bypass the passive crossover and use an active crossovers with the Yamaha for bass and the PrimaLuna’s for mid and treble. Right now the 1.7i are powered by a 350 watt McIntosh amp, they do need good power!
I've been vertically bi-amping with identical amps for 20+ years. The difference is significant. I'm surprised this is such a revelation for you Steve.
In your setup, you still have a full range audio signal going to both amps and thus to both high and low speakers. It seems this would be so much better if there was a crossover between the preamp output and the main amps inputs. That way high frequency signal goes to one amp, etc.
Daniel Bai is correct. In fact, in this particular situation both low-powered SET amps are still delivering full bandwidth audio to both speakers - high and low. The speaker's crossover network is just turning the low/high pass frequencies that are filtered out into heat. Those little SET amps would perform much better if they only had to reproduce the intended frequencies for each speaker range. What Steve has done here is not the way to do this!
Hey Steve, what’s up!
I use a combination of valve and class-D amps. My preamp is the Musical fidelity Primo pre amp (14 ECC81 Valves) and the the Auralic Merak Monoblocks (2 for highs & 2 for lows). The speakers are Harbeth SHL5 30 anniversary. A lovely clean sound.
Sounds like a winner.. you go with NOS tubes?
Always bi wired but tried bi amping my mono blocks. Much better don’t know why i didn’t try it before. Thanks Steve
My speakers are home-made 18" 4 ways designed for bi-amping.They are powered by a 1993 Yamaha RXV870 for the top end, to a Marchand XM66 active X-over, NAD275bee for the bass (yeah, I like class D). This is one of the best sounding set-ups I've ever heard. Quiet or exceptionally loud, it's great.
Steve I'm glad you pursued this.
The first thing I think about when encountering a low-watt sonic masterpiece like the Decware is multi-amping.
Hi there,
I found this idea so interesting and I wanted to try it, but the lack of two identical power amps sort of almost stopped me from at least trying,,,,
but I decided to give it a go.
I’ve combined a sweet old Naim NAP 150 / 50 watt power amp and a brand new awesome Denafrips Hyperion, 80 watts power amp.
Controlled by a Denafrips Hestia preamp which has one set of XLR outputs going to the Hyperion, and another set of RCA outputs connected to the Naim.
All this finally connected in biwire mode using two pairs of Zu Audio speaker cables to my beloved Proac Response One SC speakers.
Suddenly my stereo system completely disappeared and I was listening to a live band.... right on front of me.... thanks so much my dear sir, life is great !!!!!!
If you're using 2 amps, isn't that bi-amping and not bi-wiring?
I have the RP-600Ms biamped with a Jolida FX-10 on the tops, and two Schiit Aegirs strapped for mono on the bottoms, all driven by a Freya+ : Jolida from the single ended outputs and Aegirs off the balanced outputs. DELICIOUS.
Keep up the good work: PS my wife isn’t so much a fan because I’ve bought so much stuff you’ve recommended! 😝🤣
I've been saving my pennies so that I can cross over and finally buy a audiophile level 2-channel amplifier. In the meantime I did bi-amp my Yamaha RX-A2060 Aventage A/V receiver (no slouch as far as A/V goes) to my front Klipsch RP-280FAs. I have to admit I was skeptical, but the difference was immediately noticeable. Like others have noted, the bass is much faster, the lower midrange is more solid and the highs have, I don't know, more "airiness" from the horn tweeters. Nice video!
When i replaced a 20-year-old 5.1 receiver with my AVR-X4700H I bi-amped my Klipsch RP-600Miis using an unused height channel. I love it (so far). If I get a second set of heights to go in the rear, I'll lose it unless I buy a new amp and use the pre-outs. As it is, my 6.1.2 system sounds great (I had to remove my center cannel speaker to put my new turntable on the top shelf - Rega P2 with the VM540ML stylus).
Happy New Year Steve. Thank you for another great video. You simply are the best of the audiophile world.
Thanks Steve.
Did you compare just mono-ing each Aegir amp, then running one per speaker instead??
I run bridged stereo monoblocks to my LS50s- no biwire connection by design.
I must say I find it hard to cope with the idea of passively filtering out 80% of the output of one amp for the tweeters :-D
Lastly: running powered subwoofers is already biamping;-)
@MAD GRUMPYMAN
Boy you're a LOUDspeaker:-D
I run my 27hz full range transmission lines with subs too...just to make you grumpy!😆
@MAD GRUMPYMAN
You can imagine me doing just that, If that will make you a happy curmudgeon :-D
Hi Steve, Happy New Year. I like to thank you for the video on pure audio project speakers, as a result I am a proud owner of pure audio project Quintet 15 with Voxativ AC 1.6. As you described the 15” drivers combined with no baffle makes it an eye opening experience, Thank You. This will be my last and final speaker I suppose.
Wow, enjoy!!
Congrats dawg! 👍
I´m listening my Paradigm Monitor 9 v.5 bi-amped by Marantz SR8002 with Belden cables for more than 10 years and it sounds really fine to me.
My ATC SCM40 passives are tri amped,
2 x Audiolab 8000Ms for the tweeter and mid and an Audiolab 8300MB for the Bass.
Sounds fantastic and friends who have heard my system are amazed!
Preamp is the Audiolab 8000Q.
Two experiences. A tri-amped setup with two, 2 watt single ended triodes, and a single ended 8 watt solid state amp on the tweeter. I use an active crossover so I can level the volumes. Huge horns, ribbon tweeter, fantastic sound. They let you know what the single ended triode mystique is really about.
The second requires a little background. In the early '90s, I came very close to buying a pair of Vision Acoustics Soloist speakers. they were $1,800 a pair without stands. Doesn't sound that expensive but now that's $3,200. Their claim to fame was an 8" poly woofer with a Motorola Piezo tweeter mounted to the center of the cone so that it moved with the woofer. They limited the excursion of the woofer to eliminate doppler effect, which may be the reason I ultimately rejected them. What they did do, is present the deepest, most solid, and convincing image I have ever heard from any speaker before or since. Only about 80 pairs were ever made, so good luck trying to find a pair, but it just so happens, I did. Paid $200 for them last year. They are acoustic suspension and 86db efficient. When I auditioned them back in the day I had 150 watt tube amps. I no longer have those, but every solid state amp I have, that make enough power, sounded like crap. So I thought I would hook up one of my S.E.T.s. The flapping sound from the woofer told me that this was not enough power. So, I biamped, running the woofer amp through a QUAD sub that eliminated everything under 85hz. This is also technically triamping. This works, and I don't have enough power to bump up to the limiting factor that caused me to reject the speaker in the first place--when the music gets big, the speaker stays small. They will play Rickie Lee Jones, they won't play Wagner.
So, would I biamp if power wasn't a factor? Probably not. My triamp setup uses a lot of wire, not to mention three amplifiers. Depending on the wire and amps you use, this can get expensive. I have $3,000 into the amps on the system, $4,000 if you count the sub. You can buy a really nice adequately powered amp for $4,000.
I am also using a tri-amped system. However, I ended up customizing the speakers to include the power amp modules. I liked the sound when the power amp modules were in a separate chassis (bi-amped) so the manufacturer (Legacy Audio) offered to put the power amp modules within the speakers (Legacy Audio Aeris) themselves. This is an open-baffle system so the amps are not enclosed (but are hidden). This saved money by not requiring to pay for the power amp chassis itself as well as speaker cables. The system came with 3 pairs of 10 foot long Monoprice interconnects. I ended up getting OCC interconnects, so more expensive. However, the difference in sound quality was subtle. It was the difference between a quiet sound getting quieter versus the same sound seeming to move further away in the sound stage. The setup is now quite simple. One preamp, 3 pairs of interconnects, and a pair of speakers.
I ‘biamp’ in a unique way. I love the low watt SET amps, particularly the 45, 300b, 801, and the pentode el84 wired in triode mode. Each of these has stood the test of time with me. I’ve used them with a number of speakers including b&w803’s various klipsch, fostex and lowther and quad esl’s and concentric tannoys. Passdiy offered the F4 a few years ago. This first watt amp is meant to take voltage amps and bolster their power with a pure current supply. The lowend of all speakers I’ve tried in and some of those listed above across the spectrum really shine when ‘biamped’ in this configuration. Thanks go out to the Reigning King of SS -NP. I imagine amps like the decware zen would bring their magic to the more challenging but worthy speakers like the KEF ls50 & the tiny BBC monitors when complimented by appropriate let’s call’m current followers’.
HI Steve, happy New Year. Bi amping changed myh HI FI experience. I use CLass A First Watt M2X on the top and ChiFi Class D down below with MiniDSP on the bass only. Stunning effect on the bass, top and mid range as lovely as ever, getting awy from the crossover is so good. Cheers.
Except you didn't really get away from the crossover. It's still in the circuit between the speaker posts and the drivers.
Hi, Steve. As has been suggested in comments section already, try out vertical bi-amping instead of in your cases horizontal bi-amping. For the vertical config. identical amps is paramount being each amp drives an entire speaker; for the amp driving the left channel speaker one of its channels is connected to the lower set of terminals and the other to the upper terminal set, and the same with the amp driving the right channel speakers. It's some time ago, but to my ears the horizontal config. sounded flatter and less involving somehow. Definitely try out vertical config. and see where that leads sonically to your ears.
If the amps you have at hand are bridgeable, I'd try that out as well. Ignore the naysayers who would have you believe bridged config. is (theoretically) inferior. With the identical power amps I used years ago, where I also tried out horizontal and vertical bi-amping, I actually preferred the same amps in bridged mode, which converts each amp into a mono amp with typically 3 times the power of its non-bridged state. In bridged mode the sound just became that more alive and effortless compared to both bi-amping modes.
Lastly, I use different amps for the horn section and parallel coupled dual 15" woofers/mids in my main 2-way speakers, but I'm running them actively and so the whole of their sound is dialed in around this configuration with different amps to begin with. I find it works very well, but in the near future will replace the bass amp to one that complements the overall presentation even better. A future scenario (even further out) may have me try out identical amps for the main speakers, still actively configured.
I found vertical a bit better than horizontal using identical amps. I use two ICE 50ASX2SE stereo modules in a DIY integrated amp with 8SN7s as the line driver. Imaging was more defined with the vertical arrangement and bass was tighter. The biggest change was with phasey effects that put sound outside the speakers - it was quite a bit better with vertical. The improvement in bass accuracy i would put down to each channel having its own power supply - a bit more current delivery maybe?
Besides gain matching (not an issue if using identical amps), the other main concern is amplifier input impedance - it will be half the nominal value when hooking up two amps in parallel to the pre-amp. Probably not an issue for solid state pre-amps, but some tube pre's may have an output impedance that's too high for driving the paralled input of two typical solid state amps (5K ohms).
Hadn't thought about vertical bi-amping, but it makes sense to have a single amp per side if you want to reduce stereo crosstalk as well as HF/LF crosstalk. The only time this would make no difference is on an amp like my A308, which is a true dual mono, including the power supplies.
Many of the benefits of bi-amping are also achievable by bi-wiring, specially if you have enough power in the first place. I suspect some of the improvement on the tiny little valve amp was due to a bit more oomph.
Passive vertical bi-amping seems like a more logical and practical way to go
John Smith, I agree, however, Steve did add a second amplifier, which is a bit more than just a wiring configuration, is it not?
Hello steve, I'm bi-amping with my Arcam alpha 10 integrated & Arcam alpha 10p power amp, the integrated runs the woofers & the power amp runs the tweaters, theses amp are around 20 years old & immaculate, I've looked after them extremely well, & these still sound wicked, I'm using my Monitor Audio GS10 loudspeakers with them, the combinations suits extremely well, a great subject as usual Steve👍
Happy New Year Steve! Thank you for sharing this info to our community. Much appreciated. In my DJ days... I used to Bi-amp a rack of crowns and never had any power or sound issues unless the 👮♀️ shut us down.
I have a DC300 series II on Bose 901 and I'm thinking of getting another, but bridging the amps to mono and putting one on each speaker. I also have some Magnepan IIBs with bi-wiring that I could hook up like he did.
Use one stereo amp on each speaker, sitting right behind each speaker, with short speaker cables.
Hi Steve I have an Arcam Alpha 7 integrated and an Arcam Alpha P8 power amp with the 7 driving the tweeter and the P8 driving the base on my Polk Audio A1a speakers and the improvement is really noticeable over just using the integrated. Thanks for another great video.
I've done the same for years with an Arcam Alpha 8 and Alpha P9 power amp driving AE floorstanders.
I'm bi-amping with my Sony DA2400es, this has bi amp feature AND pre amp out. So yes, I am using another Sony stereo amp to power the lows. I prefer to offload some of the power to another amp, it probably creates a little noise for the extra signal path but right now, it sounds good. I'm looking to get 3xCambridge Audio p500s for my rear, centre and replace the Sony integrated am using as a power amp. I do have 5.1, using the SoundblasterX AE-9 as a transport/pre amp. For media playback a 5.1 dac is incredible. Of course analog from the PC using a sub £50 2m cable for all channels then a more expensive jumper length from Sony to Sony and QED XT40i to my bi amped speakers. Good power cables and a conditioner. Soundstage, detail, power, it has everything right now and I know the bi amping improved the soundstage and detail when I first tried, I was hekkin impresssed.
Anyway lol thats my life story \o/
How was the bi-amping compared to running the Schiit amps in their mono-block mode with single connection to each speaker?
obvious answer is you need four schiits
@@ar_xiv No, that is not the obvious answer ;) You can compare a 2x mono setup to a bi-amp setup which actually was his question, i.e. single connection to each speaker. Anyway, that is not what the Audiophiliac tested, so the question was kinda pointless...
@@Baerchenization it was a joke
I too would like to know. I currently run a mono-blocked NAD to each Klipsch speaker. Would I lose some dynamics and separation running in bi-amp stereo? ( 100w/channel stereo, 400w/channel mono )
@@ar_xiv or 2 schiits and 1 shit
I bi-amped Usher V9801 with Supra Rondo cable to Usher AU6500 bypass preamp direct connect to Point P-type Dac, use Dac as preamp, the result is definitely better. Better bass control, cleaner sound, shaper stage image. Supra cable basically provide a smoother sound for the system, and I think bi-amped it just add a much more reasonable power for the speakers.
Happy New Year Steve. I had a pair of Dahlquist DQ20i and at the time I had a Carver avr100 reciever and an Adcom gfa5500. I bi amped the speakers using the Adcom for the bass and the Carver 150 watts channel for the mid and high frequency and they sounded amazing. That's my experience
Another bi-amp option is to have amp A for left and amb B for right (rather than amp A for tweeter and amp B for woofer). Of course this method really requires matching amps. I've found that this better uses that power supply of smaller amps or when desiring to play louder. The trade off would be that the higher frequencies can be more reveling when the amp is being driven at high volume .
Agree
I took my old JBLs and split the divider circuit so each driver still had the original circuit upstream. Then installed biamp posts and set my yamaha 7.1 av receiver to work as 5.1 with the front mains biamped. The improvement was huge and all I had to buy were dual banana posts from parts express. A bit of soldering and elbow grease and the whole system sounds so much more beefy.
I did bi-amping for years with tube int.amp on tweeters and SS amp on bass, best of both worlds. And could adjust volume on tweeters which works like tone control. Makes better sound than much more expensive amps always.
I suggested this to my wife and she said she wasn’t interested.
Get a drink or two in her. She'll warm up to bi-amping if you leave her in the room alone with the gear to begin with. ;-)
It’s disgusting and weak when grown men have to ask their wives for permission to do something...🤦🏻🙄
@@breakoutpete210 I believe the innuendo went over your head
@@breakoutpete210 It’s a joke dude. Cool your man jets.
@@jlmain5777...afterburners
Bi-amp is required for my current hungry IRS Betas, I’m still using my stop gap “temporary” set up of an old SAE 502a on top end, and an Adcom GFA 555 on the woofers. Would prefer Audio Research w/ tubes on the panels, something with a volume control. I have VTL 300 Mb, gonna drag those back out soon and retest, after recently discovering I had an ac outlet wired backwards (!), which might explain my fuse blowing issues. Fingers crossed.
Steve, I was told by Audioquest that the cables from each of the amps to the speaker needs to be the same. They gave me some technical reasons I don't understand but they were pretty firm about it. Nothing would blow up but it would not sound right. Like I have a Robin Hood Zero as my main speaker cables and a Castle Rock in my secondary system. The advice was not to use both but to get a second of the same type.
Steve. Didn't we use to call this fools biamp? It still uses all the passive components of the speakers crossover .
Hi Steve, not long ago you experimented with bi-amping the Sonus Saber tower speakers with the McIntosh dual apms at the McIntosh facility, doing exactly that: driving the mids and the highs with the tube channel and the lows - with the solid-state channel. You seemed to be happy with the result, but yes, you did state, that this particular tube amp didnt sound like a typical tube, plus it was a very high-end amp designed from the beginning to do exactly that.
Just wanted to mention that.
Id suspect, that a typical tube amp, having a weak if any global feedback loop may be introducing a larger delay in the signal path and still be ok on its own, but when you pair it with solid state - the outputs could be "out o sync" so to say.
Thanks for researching this topic for the community!
When the preamp in my Rotel RA975 (100W/ch) began to die, I purchased a Rotel A11 (20W/ch). The old power amp now drives my woofers/lower mid-range and the tweeters are driven by the 20W/ch amp. Works well and I wouldn’t go back to the way things were before. It didn’t take much effort, saved an amplifier I’ve enjoyed for 20 years and yes, the result is more detail and a hard to describe slight extra “meatiness” in the bass. Not huge-it’s subtle. And your techie friend is wrong-there’s plenty of valid technical reasons that there would be a difference, but not of course what the result would actually _sound_ like.
Side note: I’d always intended to try something like this but never got around to it until fate intervened. I also added a DSP and played around with active crossover as well. I could happily live without the DSP, but not the bi-amping.
I have been bi-amping for years. I'm a professional 'live' sound engineer, that found a lot of time on my hands recently, due to the COVID situation. So, I decided to build a poor man's HiFi system, using bits and pieces from some of my old speaker stock. Retired speaker cabinets, spare drivers, various crossovers, horn lenses, etc. And after a few months of testing various frankenstein creations, I came up with this concoction. I took a pair of 30+ year old Sonic brand, 15" 2-way PA speaker cabinets. I installed MCM Electronics, aluminum cast framed 15" woofers, JBL 2416H HF drivers, and equally aged Eminence 2-way crossovers. (Only to protect the JBL horn drivers. Leaving the 15" woofers to be DSP'd by the amplifier) Then, I bought new horns that matched the original ones in the Sonic boxes, and fitted them with 40+ year old EV-1824M midrange drivers, built boxes for them, and then added bandpass crossovers, to protect them. I then took new Skar brand, 6.5" mid-woofers, put those into small boxes, and added a pair of baby butt cheek horns, fitted with 25 year old Foster N27 HF drivers, and crossed them over with some 40 year old Realistic 2-way crossovers. I then took an Aiyima brand T2, dual vacuum tube, (6J1), preamp, that I then run my Tascam CDRW5000 CD player thru, or just Bluetooth the signal source, (Pandora or Spotify), thru its BT feature, then RCA 'Y' cabled out to three amplifiers. Two Crown XLS1000s, and an A/B International Series 200. The first Crown amp powers the 15" woofers, @ 250 Hz into 8 ohms at 215 watts. The second Crown amp, powers up the JBL horns and the Foster horns, in full range, (Remember, they have built in crossovers), at 350 watts, into 4 ohms. (But, I don't use all that power on them) The A/B intl. amp powers up both the EV-1824M mid horns, (@ 2,000 Hz - 6,000 kHz) and the Skar 6.5" drivers, (@ 200 Hz - 8,000 kHz), at 100 watts into a 4 ohm load. As they are internally crossed over with their respective networks. The end result is a great, very defined, and a widely separated spectrum of sound. Despite not really being HiFi materials, I am blown away by this. Not anything I have owned, in the way of consumer speakers, has ever come close to this sound. Mind you, I have been engineering live sound for 35 years, and I love to listen to quality music on a quality systems. So I have to say that the months that it took to cultivate these drivers, was paid off wonderfully. Now, I started watching your clips on RUclips, since around March of last year, so I have been paying attention. (I love your reviews, BTW) Here is a lengthy clip of my Frankenstein's monsters in action. (Filmed in my garage, where they were created) I call them 'The Sonic Colossus' speakers. This clip was made prior to my adding the baby butt cheek horns and Foster drivers, and a 100 watt hybrid tube amp. Let me know what you think. vimeo.com/499869037 Thanks.
I have been bi-amping since 2002. Originally I had 2 Tag McLaren 125M mono blocks driving my PMC FB1+ speakers when I had the chance to acquire another pair of 125M's so I could bi-amp each speaker, All I can say is that I would never ever return to single amplification as everything else I have tried fails to give the same clarity and delicacy that I have had for nearly 2 decades.
When I get speakers with this capability, I will try it with my two Parasound amps currently used as monoblocks. Good video, Steve!
I use my Audiolab 8000S integrated with its matched 8000SX power amp for bi-amping, and the difference is easily noticeable. It very clearly adds a bit of weight. Things sound slightly fuller. Definitely recommended if you've got kit that'll do it.
Having said that, I'm currently running closed-box speakers from 1989 that only have one set of binding posts, as they suit the room I'm in at the moment a lot better.
Have a pair of rtia12 polks I was going to toss away or sell because I was so disappointed in the sound. I saw online that someone said they need to be biamped due to them being power hungry . Once I did it they sounded like 100% different speakers
I had tha same problem with polk lsim 705's. Powered them with a crown 1502.... and was so disappointed. I took a chance, added another crown and OMG.... now I'm in AUDIO HEAVEN
@GeneralCurtis3LeMay sorry ment to say the new crown xls 1502's
Hmm, did you maybe mean RTi12? Or RTiA9? Or?
@@johnsmith1474 Awww 😢
Have biamped speakers since the 80s in various different ways solid state and valve or a mixture of both, had good and bad results depending on the equipment used, definitely worth exploring this topic.
I tried this with my AV receiver on Monitor Audio RX8 speakers. I agree that there was an improvement in the overall presentation.
If you do not have 2 sets of pre-amp outs but the pre-amp is true balanced, you can split the balanced out into 2 single end circuits. This way, not only are you using 2 power amps for each speaker, but also 2 pre-amp circuits as well.
Great video Steve! Bi-amp often both horizontal (as shown) and vertical. Also used active crossovers. Tried tube amps on top and solid state on bass. The gain characteristics or input impedance, made the tonal balance change with volume control position. Didn't work out.
The best way to do this in my opinion is with tubes on the tweeters and solid state on the woofers. Tubes make the highs smoother while solid state gives much deeper tighter bass. Best of both worlds
Also its nice if you have 2 preamps so you can independently control tones on the woofer and tweeters using the one pre with 2 sets of preout to feed the tweeters and the other preamp which feeds the woofers so the first pre works as a master volume control. This really allows you to dial in the bass tones on the woofer without effecting the mids and tweeters.
The first time I bi amped was back in the mid seventies with a pair of Magnepans. I didn't do it again until recently with a pair of JSE Infinite Slope model 2's. In both cases, it improved the sound dramatically.
Hi Steve
Great video, thanks!
I believe the Decware amps can also be used as monoblocks getting more power per channel, as every amp will only drive one of them, and also making easier the connections and no needing for a Y splitter and the risk of missmatching impedances.
If they can be used as monoblocks, the ultimate test would be biamping vs monoblocks.
Have you tried that?
PS: by the way, using them as monoblocks gives another advantage. The amps can be placed closer to each speaker and that way save money on speaker cables as good ones are very expensive.
I've got a pair of B&W 801 Nautilus's, that I've tried a bunch of different amps on including McIntosh 1.25KW's. Currently bi-amping with a Rogue Atlas Magnum with KT120's driving the top end and a Bryson 4B SST on the bottom. Sounded bass heavy at first and switched back to a Bryston 4B ST which has less power and was a better match. Subsequently. tried McIntosh's MC901's approach and introduced an ART 2 way crossover with gain control. Switched back to the 4B SST and dialed it in. Wow! Very impressed with the sound. Source is Tidal, pre-amp is a McIntosh C1100 and DAC is a Lampizator Atlantic.
Never mentioned F7, F8 biamp match up?
I bi amp 2 Marantz 8005 integrated with Wharfedale 4.2. Marantz!! Amazing.